It's Time to Talk Sourdough, featuring Amber Eisler

Summary

Podcast Summary: "It's Time to Talk Sourdough, featuring Amber Eisler"

Episode Information:

• Title: It's Time to Talk Sourdough
• Podcast: Things Bakers Know: The King Arthur Baking Podcast
• Host: Jessica Batalana and David Tamarkin
• Guest: Amber Eisler, Director of Baking Education at King Arthur Baking School
• Release Date: May 12, 2025

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Introduction to Sourdough

The episode opens with hosts Jessica Batalana and David Tamarkin delving into the multifaceted world of sourdough baking. They highlight sourdough's enduring popularity and its evolution from a niche hobby to a mainstream baking staple, especially following the pandemic-induced surge in home baking.

Notable Quote:

• Jessica Batalana [00:16]: “We're talking about sourdough, specifically the state of sourdough. Right now.”

The Rise and Versatility of Sourdough

Jessica and David discuss how sourdough has transitioned into mainstream culture, attributing much of its popularity to the pandemic, which acted as a catalyst for many to start baking at home. They emphasize that sourdough is not limited to traditional loaf forms but extends to a variety of baked goods and culinary applications.

Key Points:

• Pandemic Impact: The pandemic led to a "sourdough gold rush," with an unprecedented number of home bakers adopting sourdough.
• Beyond Traditional Loaves: Sourdough is being used in diverse recipes, including brownies and granola, showcasing its versatility.

Notable Quotes:

• Jessica Batalana [02:46]: “I think when people start their sourdough journey, they really have one bread in mind... there’s so much more to sourdough than just that loaf.”
• David Tamarkin [05:00]: “Sourdough has tons of uses and can make all sorts of bread, and it can have tons of uses outside of bread.”

Interview with Amber Eisler: Expert Sourdough Insights

The hosts introduce Amber Eisler, an experienced bread baker and educator, to share her expertise on sourdough baking. Amber provides valuable insights into current trends, challenges, and best practices for both novice and seasoned bakers.

Sourdough Baking Trends

Amber observes a significant broadening in the demographics of sourdough enthusiasts. Initially dominated by retired engineers and health food aficionados, sourdough now attracts individuals from all walks of life inspired by visually appealing social media content.

Notable Quotes:

• Amber Eisler [09:13]: “Sourdough is definitely having a moment. And we are seeing people from every walk of life baking sourdough.”
• Amber Eisler [09:38]: “They have images on social media, bubbly dough and beautiful crust, and they're like, yes, I want that.”

Mastering Fermentation and Proofing

Amber addresses common pitfalls in fermentation and proofing, emphasizing the importance of temperature control and sensory evaluation. She advises bakers to continually monitor dough temperature and environmental factors, using touch and observation to gauge progress.

Key Tips:

• Temperature Management: Regularly check both room and dough temperatures.
• Sensory Cues: Feel the dough to assess its readiness, avoiding a "set and forget" mentality.

Notable Quotes:

• Amber Eisler [10:44]: “You have to pay attention to temperature. Check in. What is your room temperature? What is your dough temperature?”
• Jessica Batalana [12:33]: “I'm looking at the score mark right where I've made a cut on the top of the bread. I really wanna see color in that score mark.”

Achieving the Perfect Crust and Crumb

Discussion on desired crust color highlights the balance between achieving a flavorful, crispy exterior and avoiding underbaking, which can result in a soggy crust. Amber recommends focusing on the score mark's color as an indicator of proper baking.

Notable Quotes:

• Amber Eisler [11:50]: “There's a range... students tend to just be afraid that their bread is going to burn, and as a result, they really underbake it.”
• Amber Eisler [12:53]: “I want to see some color there. If it's looking really pale, then I'm going to put it back in for a few more minutes.”

Advice for Beginner Bakers

Amber emphasizes the importance of consistency and attentiveness. She encourages beginners to practice the same recipes repeatedly to build muscle memory and better understand the variables affecting their dough.

Key Advice:

• Practice Consistently: Repeatedly bake the same bread to master the process.
• Stay Observant: Monitor changes in temperature, dough feel, and starter health.

Notable Quotes:

• Amber Eisler [13:20]: “You just have to practice, practice the same bread over and over again.”
• Amber Eisler [13:56]: “Be really observant... stay focused, and just have fun with the process.”

Listener Q&A: Sourdough Baking Challenges

Amber addresses several listener-submitted questions, providing practical solutions and clarifications on common sourdough issues.

1. Achieving Consistent Oven Spring

Question: [19:27] “Sometimes my bread does a nice little puff, and sometimes it's just flat. I'd really like to know how to make it better.”

Response:

• Proper Proofing: Avoid overproofing, which can cause the loaf to collapse.
• Scoring Techniques: Ensure shallow cuts to prevent excessive spreading.
• Shaping: Properly shape the loaf to create structure for optimal rise.

Notable Quotes:

• Amber Eisler [19:29]: “It could just be that you're scoring too deep... encourages a flatter loaf.”
• Amber Eisler [20:19]: “An underproofed loaf is tight and springy... overproofed is fragile and collapses.”

2. Feeding Sourdough Starters on Life Support

Question: [21:25] “How long can we wait to feed Fernando before he gets super angry?”

Response:

• Regular Feeding Schedule: Feed the starter at least once a week if kept in the fridge.
• Revival Before Baking: Perform a couple of feedings at room temperature before using the starter for baking.

Notable Quotes:

• Amber Eisler [22:39]: “You gotta take Fernando out of the fridge at least once a week just to keep him on life support.”
• Amber Eisler [23:26]: “You want Fernando to do some heavy lifting. Feed him a couple more times before baking.”

3. The Impact of Sourdough Starter Age

Question: [23:42] “Does sourdough starter get better with age? People are talking about how old their starter is and if it makes a difference for the bread.”

Response:

• Recent Care Over Age: The recent two weeks of starter maintenance are more critical than its age.
• Historical Significance: While having a long history adds sentimental value, it doesn't necessarily enhance bread quality.
• Refreshing the Starter: Regular feeding maintains the starter's effectiveness.

Notable Quotes:

• Amber Eisler [24:00]: “It is much more important how you have treated your sourdough starter in the past two weeks, not the past two centuries.”
• Amber Eisler [24:45]: “Older is not necessarily better.”

Listener Segment: Creative Sourdough Starter Names

The hosts celebrate the creativity of their listeners by sharing a variety of unique and heartfelt names for sourdough starters. This segment underscores the personal connection and affection bakers develop for their starters.

Notable Examples:

• "Fernando" – Named by a listener and her daughter.
• "Bredna Pitt" – A playful homage combining "bred" with the actress Brad Pitt.
• "Fanny Ida Mae" – Named after strong women in a listener’s family.
• "Bradley Cooper" – After the actor, showcasing punny naming.

Notable Quotes:

• Jessica Batalana [26:10]: “My sourdough starter's name is Yeast Mode... it got confusing when I then actually had a baby.”
• Amber Eisler [27:10]: “My sourdough daughter is Fanny Ida Mae.”

Jess Opinions: On the Sourness of Sourdough

In this segment, Jessica shares her personal stance on the flavor profile of sourdough bread, expressing a preference for balanced flavors over excessively sour loaves. She critiques the misconception that true sourdough must be intensely tangy, advocating for diverse flavor profiles that cater to individual tastes.

Key Points:

• Preference for Balance: Jessica favors a harmonious flavor where sourness complements rather than dominates.
• Impact of Over-Souring: Excessive tang can deter potential sourdough enthusiasts and limit its versatility.
• Commercial Practices: Criticism of bakeries that artificially spike sourness using additives instead of natural fermentation.

Notable Quotes:

• Jessica Batalana [29:26]: “I think sourdough is... that crusty loaf should be like mouth puckeringly sour and tangy. And I just hate that style of sourdough so much.”
• Jessica Batalana [31:20]: “I am not wild about those super sour sourdough. But to each their own, I suppose.”

Conclusion and Upcoming Content

The episode wraps up with the hosts sharing what they plan to bake in the coming week and teasing the next episode focused on biscuits. They encourage listeners to engage with the podcast by submitting questions and sharing their baking experiences.

Notable Quotes:

• Jessica Batalana [33:39]: “This episode featured Amber Eisler... learn more about the Baking school as well as Amber's On Demand Sourdough for beginners class @kingarthurbaking.com/baking-school.”
• David Tamarkin [34:09]: “Things Bakers Know is a King Arthur Baking Company podcast.”

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Final Thoughts:

This episode provides a comprehensive exploration of sourdough baking, blending expert advice with community engagement. Listeners gain valuable insights into mastering sourdough techniques, understanding common challenges, and appreciating the personal connections that make baking a beloved craft.

Transcript

[Jessica Batalana]

Things that get better with age, women, cheese, wine. But sourdough starter.

[David Tamarkin]

From King Arthur Baking Company. This is things bakers know. I'm David Tamarkin, King Arthur's editorial director.

[Jessica Batalana]

And I'm Jessica Batalana, staff editor at King Arthur Baking. And today we're talking about a topic that elicits a lot of passion and curiosity, as well as frustration, hope, and toast. We're talking about sourdough, specifically the state of sourdough. Right now.

[David Tamarkin]

Before we get anywhere, I think we need to establish what our starter's names are. Jessica. So can you please tell us what you've named your sourdough starter?

[Jessica Batalana]

Last October, I buckled my sourdough starter into the car and I brought it to our studio in New Hampshire because we were photographing the Big Book of Bread and we wanted to show starter at different stages. So we wanted to show what one that was tragically neglected, and I volunteered to let mine be the tragically underfed. So I just ignored it for months leading up to this shoot. And then at the end of the shoot, my colleague Melanie Wanders, who was the co author of the book, was like, nope, start over. So she gave me some of her starter, and there's a piece of masking tape on it, and it's called Jessica's jazzy starter 2.0. But that's. Yeah, Jessica's Jazzy Starter.

[David Tamarkin]

Well, what was the name of the starter that you buckled in?

[Jessica Batalana]

It wasn't named.

[David Tamarkin]

Oh, you just didn't name it. I know.

[Jessica Batalana]

I just never named it. I don't name cars. I don't name sourdough starters. It's the name of my children. Well, it's interesting that you say that, because my childhood cat growing up was named White Cat, and it was the daughter of another cat that we'd had whose name was Black Cat. Black Cat, Yes.

[David Tamarkin]

Nice. Yes.

[Jessica Batalana]

So what's the name of your sourdough starter?

[David Tamarkin]

Now that I think about it, I have no less than four starters in my fridge right now, all varying ages. I've only named one of them, and I could have sort of. The name applies to all of them, and all of my starters are named choices because I wanted to remind myself that when I was frustrated or when I was annoyed that I had to feed it in the middle of the night before going to bed or when a bread didn't come out the way I wanted it to, that this was my choice. Choice. I made it. No one to blame but me and my choices. So that's.

[Jessica Batalana]

I love that. And I think that is why this topic today. I mean, it's such a huge topic, right? Like, we're just going to scratch the surface because there. There's so many different, you know, aspects to sourdough baking. But I think one thing we know is that it's still very popular, extremely.

[David Tamarkin]

Popular, and for good reason, though it's.

[Jessica Batalana]

Been around for thousands of years. I feel like it really took the pandemic for sourdough to enter mainstream culture in the way that it did. I think that was a period of time when every person you knew, and maybe a lot of our listeners, too, started a sourdough culture at home and started baking sourdough bread. It was like, you know, gold rush, but for sourdough. And I had been saying sort of derisively that I didn't have a sourdough starter during the pandemic. I never baked sourdough bread. And then recently, I found a photo that I'd posted to Instagram that was of a melted container of sourdough starter. This was like, April of 2020. And, in fact, I did have a sourdough starter, and I put it in my oven to keep it warm or coddle it, and I turned my oven on and I melted the plastic quart container that I was in. But I had blocked out the memory of ever having a sourdough starter during the pandemic, ever baking bread with it.

[David Tamarkin]

So, wait, you thought you were immune to the trend, but you have just now remembered that not only were you not immune to it, you got into it and you were traumatized?

[Jessica Batalana]

Yeah, exactly.

[David Tamarkin]

I blacked it out.

[Jessica Batalana]

It was buried trauma. But others fared a lot better, you know, than I did. And you see it now because people are still baking tons of sourdough bread at home.

[David Tamarkin]

Yeah, it was not a blip. It's kept on going. Last spring, in fact, we found ourselves in what we were calling internally here at King Arthur, the second sourdough boom, because we looked at Google trends on our own site traffic, that the interest in sourdough was at this same level as the pandemic. So it really seems like year after year, sourdough is only growing and it's becoming more and more mainstream when it used to be something niche.

[Jessica Batalana]

Do you feel like we've sort of reached, like, peak sourdough at this point, or are there still places to go?

[David Tamarkin]

I think there's a lot more ahead of us. I think when people start their sourdough journey, they really have one bread in mind. They have a crusty boule or bretard that has a nice open crumb. It's probably a higher hydration bread. I think for a long time when we think of sourdough bread, we have that loaf in mind. It's really something that I think tartine bread, which you worked on one of those books, right? I think you co wrote one of the tartine bread books.

[Jessica Batalana]

Yeah, the third tartine book.

[David Tamarkin]

Three.

[Jessica Batalana]

Yeah.

[David Tamarkin]

I mean, just the fact that there were three tartine bread books, I mean, speaks to the power of that bread in particular and the desire for people to make it. And that's why I say sourdough has so much more to go because there's so much more to sourdough than just that loaf. And that's a great loaf.

[Jessica Batalana]

But.

[David Tamarkin]

But, you know, the other day my husband made a sourdough sandwich bread, I think, from the big Boca bread. It's so delicious. I mean, it's almost tastes like brioche. I mean, it's so tender. It's the exact opposite of that crusty loaf. It's like soft. The crumb is even. You know, you can actually put something on it without it falling through, you know, and it's delicious. And I think more and more people are gonna understand that. Sourdough has tons of uses and can make all sorts of bread, and it can have tons of uses outside of bread. Our test kitchen just put out a great sourdough brownie in the sourd has a function there. It makes it super fudgy. Our friend Lucas Volger wrote a substack newsletter about our sourdough granola recipe where we use sourdough culture to create a super crispy granola that needs less sugar. Because the sourdough is a thing that's, you know, making it crisp and binding it all together. So there's so many places that sourdough can go. And I think we're just getting started.

[Jessica Batalana]

Yeah, I mean, I think everyone knows about sourdough breads or sourdough rolls and English muffins and bagels, but there are all these applications for sourdough disc, you know, so once you've fed your starter and you have all this discard, people are kind of realizing, like, I don't want to just like discard my discard. I want to use this flavorful matrix, you know, to work for me. And so it's getting added to all sorts of interesting things, you know. And here in South Portland, Maine, there's a bakery called Night Moves that I.

[David Tamarkin]

Love, obsessed with night moves.

[Jessica Batalana]

And the baker, Kerry Hanney, is adding sourdough discard to her cacao brownie. And it's like, it's mind blowing. It has such a depth of flavor, and it plays so nicely out the chocolate. And it just kind of shows you the opportunity that people have, you know, with sourdough discard as an ingredient unto itself.

[David Tamarkin]

Yeah, it's a powerful ingredient. And I think one of the things I love about sourdough is that it is function and flavor. And you can choose to take advantage of both those things or just one of them. Obviously, it has limiting power. Obviously it has flavor. But, you know, if you use a young sourdough starter for some of these quote unquote discard recipes, you're not gonna get any of that flavor at all. And that's maybe what you want, but it has the function, as you said, it's another way to hydration and flour into your recipe. I bring that up because I'm actually beginning to dislike the term discard recipe, because I think we should be thinking about sourdough as an ingredient that goes beyond bread. And it sort of sounds dismissive, like you would only make these brownies if you're using sourdough discard, when in fact, you could be building sourdough starter specifically to make those brownies because you like to flavor those brownies or because you like what it does in the lemon loaf that we just put on our site recently. So I think expanding our idea of what sourdough culture is even for is a. Is an exciting new terrain for sourdough. Although I know today we're pretty much sticking to sourdough bread.

[Jessica Batalana]

We're pretty well. And that's what I was saying. I mean, there's so much to talk about that I think we had to tease out one thing that we could focus on because we could talk for. I mean, we did. When we were working on the Big Book of Bread, we talked for years.

[David Tamarkin]

Actually, years, literal years of our lives.

[Jessica Batalana]

Actual years of our life were spent thinking and talking about both how to start maintain troubleshoot with sourdough culture, but then the beautiful things that you could bake with. So we had to just, like, bite off a small piece of the apple here.

[David Tamarkin]

Today, we're sticking to sourdough bread because that's how most people get into sourdough. And when we called for questions about sourdough, 90% of the questions were about bread. So we're gonna bring in one of our amazing colleagues, Amber Eisler. Amber Eisler, King Arthur's director of baking education, was Also a bread baker in our bakery for five years, and she's been teaching at our baking school for over 15 years. In other words, she knows a lot about making great bread, particularly sourdough bre. Amber, thanks for coming on the podcast.

[Amber Eisler]

Hey, David, it's great to be here.

[David Tamarkin]

My first question for you, Amber, is what have you seen in your sourdough baking school classes these days? Has there been any shift in students, interest or knowledge of sourdough in the last few years?

[Amber Eisler]

Yeah, definitely. So when I first started teaching sourdough, most of the people were either retired engineers or health food enthusiasts. But sourdough is definitely having a moment. And we are seeing people from every walk of life baking sourdough. And there are people that see these images on social media, bubbly dough and beautiful crust, and they're like, yes, I want that.

[David Tamarkin]

I know exactly the loaf you're talking about. We're talking about a crusty loaf with an open structure. Like, how hard is that to get for a beginner sourdough baker?

[Amber Eisler]

Oh, that's hard to say, David. Humans have been baking sourdough for thousands of years. If it was that hard, we would have given up a long time ago. But getting that perfect balance of crust and crumb and the texture, that you can spend a lifetime perfecting your loaf.

[David Tamarkin]

Totally. I feel like I've been doing that the past five years. Let's move on to fermentation and proofing. This was a real pain point for me when I started baking bread. Sometimes, honestly, it still is. Nailing the proof on a final loaf of bread before you slide it in the oven has such an enormous impact on that bread's bake. And I kept on pulling flat loaves out of the oven in amber. I don't think I have to tell you that I was not trying to make flatbread here. I was trying to make big, beautiful, bulbous loaves of bread, but I wasn't nailing the proof. I was either under proofing or over proofing. What are your tips for bakers for nailing fermentation and proofing?

[Amber Eisler]

Yeah, so you really have to pay attention to temperature. And this could go either way. Sometimes the dough is too cold, sometimes it's too warm. So I just think about how I react to temperature. When I'm cold, I just wanna curl up into a ball and hybr or Nate, I don't want to do anything. I don't rise to the occasion. But, you know, when I'm at a nice, comfortable temperature, I'm at my best. And the sourdough is the same. So check in. What is your room temperature? What is your dough temperature? How does that change over time? And don't just kind of set your dough and forget about it. You got to keep checking in with it, see how it's doing, feel the dough. Really use your senses to see how the dough is reacting.

[David Tamarkin]

Another thing I want to talk about, I just was talking about this with my husband yesterday as he was baking bread, is color. There's a lot of different opinions about color. I'm now at a point where my loaves really dark, and I love that sort of almost bitterness that you get from a very dark crust. My husband is not there yet, so when he bakes bread, we have. We have lighter loaves. And then sometimes I see some very, very pale loaves. Is there a right color for sourdough?

[Amber Eisler]

Oh, I feel like I'm gonna get in trouble no matter how I answer that one. There's a range of. Right. And I think there's room in the world that really super dark bake, that is just a real depth of flavor. It's like caramelization. There's definitely a range. But I do notice that students tend to just be afraid that their bread is going to burn, and as a result, they really underbake it. And the consequences of really under baking your bread are that you have too much moisture that has not baked off. And so as soon as you pull that bread out of the oven, that crispy crust softens right up. So you don't have that crisp crust that you're searching for.

[David Tamarkin]

Totally.

[Amber Eisler]

When I'm looking at a loaf of bread, I'm looking at the score mark right where I've made a cut on the top of the bread. I really wanna see color in that score mark. I don't wanna just look at the top to make sure that I'm getting really nice color.

[David Tamarkin]

So when you talk about the score mark, are you talking about the deepest part of the score or perhaps the ear that forms around the score?

[Amber Eisler]

Yeah, I'm looking at the deepest part. So the ear is going to get color on it real fast. Right. But I'm looking where the score mark merges with of the loaf.

[David Tamarkin]

And you want to see that golden brown.

[Amber Eisler]

I want to see some color there. It's certainly not going to be as dark as the rest of the loaf, but if it's looking really pale, then I'm going to put it back in for a few more minutes.

[David Tamarkin]

That's a great tip. I love that. What is one Tip, Amber, you would give to a beginner sourdough baker looking to level up their bread.

[Amber Eisler]

Yeah, you just have to practice, practice the same bread over and over again. Don't keep chasing every wind that blows your way. You've got to stick with the bread that you want to make and be really observant. You know, how is your temperature changing? What's the weather like? How does the dough feel? What was the health of your starter? So it's really being detective almost. And you're really trying to pay attention to all of the variables, stay focused, and just have fun with the process. You know, don't get stressed out. Because sometimes even the bakes that don't turn out exactly the way we hoped, they are still so good.

[David Tamarkin]

I love that for everything, really. Not just for bread. I was thinking about practice and hours put into bread as you were talking. And I was thinking about the five years you spent in our bakery making bread every day. And I just imagined that when you're a bread baker in a professional setting, that you were constantly doing what you just said. You're constantly doing the detective work to know is the dough right? It's never quite predictable. Right. Because like you said, it's about the moisture in the room, the temperature, everything. There's so many elements. You said it was engineers who were initially taking sourdough classes. I think of an engineer as somebody who wants to design something that works each and every time. I don't know. My feeling is, and I just wonder if you agree with this, that bread is never going to be like that.

[Amber Eisler]

Yeah. Bread also is just such a temporary art. Right. You bake it, you eat it, and then the next day you have to do the same thing over again. And it gives us great opportunity. But I just love being in production baking because it's the same enough, it's familiar enough that you get into this very comfortable muscle memory rhythm. But there are enough variables and surprises that you always have to stay mentally on. So I never had a bad or boring day as a baker. It is a great profession. I love baking.

[David Tamarkin]

And I think some of that, you don't get the same level of that, of course, as a home baker or as a occasional home baker. But I think the spirit of that is getting up and trying again and just temporary art is perfect for that. I love that. So thank you, Amber. Okay, Amber, where can people find you if they want more of your wisdom on bread?

[Amber Eisler]

Well, people can find me at our baking school. I teach here in Vermont. But you can also find my new on demand sourdough class and I am just so excited to share sourdough in that platform. Yeah, it's just a great opportunity to reach people that might not be able to travel to our in person schools.

[David Tamarkin]

I'm obsessed with that class. It's such a great class and if anybody wants to learn more, we'll have a link in our show. Notes as you know, Amber, people have so many questions about sourdough. It's not just me. And so while you've done a great job answering my questions, I wonder if you'd stick around to help us answer some listener questions.

[Amber Eisler]

I would love to.

[Jessica Batalana]

This episode is brought to you by King Arthur's Sourdough Shop. We have fresh sourdough starter you can order, so you can skip the week it takes to make one from scratch. And we also have the tools you need, like our popular sourdough crust and appliances, including the beloved Sourdough home, which is like a cozy little refrigerator for your starter. We also have one of your favorite tools, David, the raisin dough riser.

[David Tamarkin]

I love that thing. It's like a little electric blanket for your sourdough starter. You put it on it and it's like the perfect temperature to make it rise and get all bubbly. And you can put your breads on it too and it makes your breads rise easily. I'm trying it with my wallet to see if I put my wallet on it, it makes like my 401k rise or something.

[Jessica Batalana]

Or that's a super handy tool, especially if you're a sourdough baker who lives in a colder climate. We also have our New York Times Best Selling Big Book of Bread, which demystifies sourdough baking and is a treasure trove of recipes. Who wrote that book for bread, bagels and everything in between? I mean, who wrote that thing? Some geniuses.

[David Tamarkin]

Some geniuses Jessica Bottalana and some other people. It's a great.

[Jessica Batalana]

You can find everything you need for sourdough [e-mail].

[David Tamarkin]

Hi there, it's Jack Bishop. I'm the ingredients guy from America's Test Kitchen shows on public television. And you might have seen me on TV as a judge on our competition show, America's Test the Next Generation. I'm also the host of one of our podcasts called Proof. Every episode is deeply reported by producers from all around the world, and they bring you the kind of stories you'll want to share at your next dinner party. Like this one, where we learn about Japan's relationship to Game meat through the story of Sakura, a boar hunter. Wow, they're digging everything up. We also dive into an unavoidable ingredient it that ends up in all our food.

[Jessica Batalana]

Can saliva really alter a plate of food mid meal? That noticeably?

[David Tamarkin]

Catch new episodes of Proof on Thursdays and make sure to subscribe so you don't miss out on any episodes. It's time for our next segment, Ask the Bakers for Ask the Bakers. We want to hear from you. If you have a baking question for us, head to kingarthurbaking.com podcast to record a voice message and we may end up using it on the show. That's kingarthurbaking.com podcast.

[Jessica Batalana]

And of course, if you have a baking question that simply cannot wait, you can always reach out to our baker's hotline via phone, email, or online chat. Just go to kingarthurbaking.combakers. that's kingarthurbaking.combakerers-hotline or call us 855-371-2253. That's 2253, as in bake.

[David Tamarkin]

Let's hear our first question.

[Jessica Batalana]

Hi, King Arthur.

[Amber Eisler]

I'd really like to know a little.

[Jessica Batalana]

Bit more about oven spring. Sometimes my bread does a nice little.

[Amber Eisler]

Puff, and sometimes it's just flat. I'd really like to know how to make it better. Thanks.

[David Tamarkin]

Thanks.

[Amber Eisler]

All right, so there are a lot of things that can be happening here. One of them is just the proof of the bread. So sometimes it could mean underproofed, but oftentimes when you're getting a really flat loaf, it means that your loaf has been overproofed. It's gone a little bit too long. The other thing, it could just be that you're scoring too deep. So some people maybe are a little aggressive when you're handling a lom or another tool to score the dough, and you end up cutting a little deeper than than necessary, and that just encourages a flatter loaf.

[Jessica Batalana]

I feel like I'm opening up a can of worms here. But how do you know if your bread is underproofed or overproofed?

[Amber Eisler]

Yeah. So an underproofed loaf, it's gonna still feel really kind of tight and springy. As the dough rises, it's going to be puffier and softer, a little bit more airy. But we don't wanna get to the point where it starts to feel very fragile because that means that it's like reached the maximum volume. But then you maybe tip it out of the banne or you slide it onto your baking stone. And it just collapses. So you want to hit that sweet spot in between.

[David Tamarkin]

This really resonates for me because I feel like when I get too fragile, too sensitive, I just collapse.

[Amber Eisler]

Happens to the best of us, I think.

[Jessica Batalana]

Also, sometimes people don't shape properly. Like, they're not shaping their loaf tightly enough. So rather than, like, have some strength there and some shaping that will help it rise, it's sort of just flops outward rather than rising upward.

[Amber Eisler]

Yeah. There's so many variables that that makes the baking process really fun and exciting, but sometimes it can be hard to pinpoint the exact issue.

[Jessica Batalana]

Let's go to our next question. You ready, Amber?

[Amber Eisler]

I'm ready. So mine and my daughter's sourdough starter is called Fernando.

[Jessica Batalana]

And we're kind of lazy sourdough people.

[Amber Eisler]

So our question is, is how long.

[Jessica Batalana]

Can we wait to feed Fernando before.

[David Tamarkin]

He gets super angry?

[Amber Eisler]

Yeah, I see this question come up a lot. And the question is not what you can do, but what you should do. Right. So you can make bread with a starter that hasn't been fed regularly. But what kind of results are you looking for? Right. And if you're looking for, really, a beautiful fermentation, volume, flavor, you are going to want to be more attentive to those feeds. And the way I think about it is, full disclosure, I am not a runner, but if I were to run a marathon, I would not do that. Right after I had been fasting for a week, I would carbo load. I would get all of the nutrition into my body first. It's the same with the sourdough starter. We need to feed it and care for it because it has a lot of work to do.

[David Tamarkin]

That's a great analogy. And that is, I think, where people like me get a little tripped up is because to your point, yes, you can make a loaf of bread, a successful loaf of bread, with a starter that's been maintained moderately well. But the difference between a loaf of bread that's been made with sourdough that's been maintained very well is palpable. It's noticeable. So don't be like me. People feed your sourdough. Feed Fernando on a regular basis to step back. What does a regular basis look like, Amber? If they're keeping Fernando in the fridge, how often should they be feeding it to keep it at peak?

[Amber Eisler]

Yeah, you gotta take Fernando out of the fridge at least once a week just to keep him on life support. But recognize that's all it is. That's life support. Right.

[David Tamarkin]

Okay.

[Amber Eisler]

You want Fernando to do Some heavy lifting. You gotta give him a couple of more feeds before you're gonna make some bread.

[David Tamarkin]

Take him out of the fridge, feed Fernando once, and then 12 or so hours later, feed him again, and then maybe even one more time before you start baking any. I think we can move on. I think we've kept Fernando. We've taken him off of life support. Who's next? I think we have one more question.

[Jessica Batalana]

Let's get to it. My question is, does sourdough starter get better with age? People are always talking about how old their starter is and how long they've kept it alive, and I'm wondering if this actually makes a difference and if it's actually any better for your bread.

[Amber Eisler]

Thank you.

[Jessica Batalana]

Things that get better with age. Women, cheese, wine. But sourdough starter.

[Amber Eisler]

It's a good question. It really is. I tell students that it is much more important how you have treated your sourdough starter in the past two weeks, not the past two centuries. You know, having said that, I acknowledge, like, there's something special and powerful about having history to your sourdough.

[Jessica Batalana]

Yeah, it's romantic, right?

[Amber Eisler]

It really is. You know, everybody likes the story to tell and the connection to the past. And sourdough bread baking really does give us a connection to the past. But when it comes to actually leavening and flavoring your bread, older is not necessarily better.

[Jessica Batalana]

Well, and I hate to sound like a jaded jerk, because I do like the sort of romance of, oh, this was passed on. You know, and often you hear these very sweet stories of, like, this was passed on to me from my late mother. This was passed on me to me from a friend from across the country. Like, that connection that baking brings, I think is something that totally resonates with me. But by the time you've given your sourdough starter, like, a week of feedings, there's probably not very much left, like, if the culture has assimilated. Right. But that's okay.

[Amber Eisler]

Absolutely.

[Jessica Batalana]

I think if you want to hang onto that history, whether or not it's, like, microbiologically accurate, that's great. But I also think sometimes people spend a lot of energy trying to, like, jolly along a very sad starter because of the romance to it, when they would be better off just starting over.

[David Tamarkin]

That's cold. Say, just move on from romance.

[Jessica Batalana]

Move on. I think we've knocked out all of today's sourdough questions, but I'm sure that there are more out there. But I think. I don't know. Amber, if you're up for it maybe we'll have you back again because you were definitely a brilliant crutch for the two of us.

[Amber Eisler]

This has been a lot of fun.

[Jessica Batalana]

And if you want more, Amber, and let's be honest, we all do, you can take a class with her at our baking school in Norwich for or you can tune in and watch her on Demand sourdough class. And we will put a link to that in our show notes. Thanks, Amber.

[Amber Eisler]

Thank you.

[David Tamarkin]

Next up, we have something a little bit different. We asked all of you home bakers to send in the names of your sourdough starters. And y' all did not disappoint. Let's listen to some of our favorites.

[Jessica Batalana]

My sourdough starter's name is Ralph. My sourdough starter's name is Gus. Gus, after its mother. Her starter's name was Gus. So an homage to Gus. Gus. Gus, rise up. My sourdough starter's name is Domer Simpson.

[David Tamarkin]

My starter's name is Bubbles. My starter's name is Harriet. I don't know why, I don't know how.

[Jessica Batalana]

I just accept it. The name of my sourdough starter is Yeast Mode. So I didn't give my sourdough starter a proper name, but I just referred.

[David Tamarkin]

To it as the baby.

[Jessica Batalana]

It got confusing when I then actually had a baby and I would tell my husband, I need to to feed the baby. And for a tiny bit at the beginning, he wasn't sure which baby I.

[David Tamarkin]

Would refer to in any given moment. Hey.

[Amber Eisler]

The name of my sourdough daughter is Fanny Ida Mae.

[David Tamarkin]

Fanny Ida Mae was named after all the really great, strong, productive, successful women in my family.

[Amber Eisler]

Thanks.

[Jessica Batalana]

My sourdough starter's name is Audrey.

[Amber Eisler]

My sourdough starter is Bredna Pitt.

[David Tamarkin]

My nephew's is Bread Pitt. So they're related. Hi. My name is Martin Sorge and I.

[Amber Eisler]

Was the winner of the Great American Baking Show.

[David Tamarkin]

The name of my sourdough starter is Pauline. She's named after a character in a Nico Case song. And I brought her all the way to London for the filming of the Great American Baking show, and now she's a star.

[Amber Eisler]

Albus Dumbledore.

[Jessica Batalana]

I like what it was. Yeast mode. That was pretty good.

[David Tamarkin]

Yeast mode is good yeast. Yeah.

[Jessica Batalana]

I'm impressed, though. People are far more creative than I am. I did just hear another great one the other day. I should have gotten them to call in. They have named theirs Bradley Cooper after the actor, which.

[David Tamarkin]

Yeah, so we had Brad Pitt. Bradley Cooper.

[Jessica Batalana]

Yep. There's a lot of opportunities there.

[David Tamarkin]

I like anything that's named after Nico Case. So I'm sort of falling towards that one. I'm a big Nico Case fan. Yeah. I sensed a big difference between a lot of the callers in and myself and you, Jessica. There's a lot of really like, earnest, sweet names. And the only time I've ever named Sourdough starter, it's always been either self deprecating in some way or sarcastic or punny or, you know, I know so.

[Jessica Batalana]

Many of these were so pure.

[David Tamarkin]

Yeah. They're so sweet. Very sweet stories. Yeah. And it's opening. It's opening a whole new world for me in terms of what I could name my sourdough starter and the ones that are named after other people or that are reminders or. I think that one caller said that it was named after all the strong women in her family. That's very sweet because, you know, strong, productive women. Strong, productive women.

[Jessica Batalana]

Yes. Not women sitting on their bus.

[David Tamarkin]

Lazy family members did not get their names worked into this.

[Jessica Batalana]

And that was just a small fraction of the names that we received. I wish we had time to play them all because they were so great. And thanks for everyone for calling in with your starter name.

[David Tamarkin]

Thanks, listeners. Every episode we'd like to check in with Jessica to see what wildly surprising and full throated ideas are in her head. A segment we lovingly call Jess Opinions. Jessica, what is your Jess Opinions this week?

[Jessica Batalana]

I feel like this is just like the segment that is inviting hate mail. We should have one of those disclaimers like they have at the end of.

[David Tamarkin]

Like prescriptions where they're like, these opinions may cause anger.

[Jessica Batalana]

Yeah, this is just an opinion, not a fact. But, you know, I lived in San Francisco for almost 18 years and it was an interesting time to live there because it was right around the time that the original location of Tartine had opened. But prior to that, you know, people had an association with San Francisco sourdough and the association that they had with it, and I think it still persists to a certain extent, is that sourdough is. Should be super sour. Like a crusty loaf of sourdough bread should be like mouth puckeringly sour and tangy. And I just hate that style of sourdough so much. I think it is, in some ways it's given sourdough a bad reputation. And people will say, well, I don't like sourdough because they have this idea that it's this super tangy, unpleasant loaf. And I think, you know, honestly, the. The best sourdough, I suppose, is the sourdough that you like to eat. But I feel like, you know, that reputation has shut some people out or convinced people that sourdough doesn't belong, say, in a swirl bread or something like that. And I know in some cases that super sour flavor is achieved through, like a very long cold fermentation period, which causes the dough to develop a lot of these acids that give you that sort of tangy flavor. But I also know that there are some bakeries, especially bigger commercial sourdough bakeries, that just spike their dough with citric acid to make it extra tangy, which I just think is a crime against good bread.

[David Tamarkin]

Huh. Okay. I don't think you're. You're probably not alone in this jest opinion. I think a lot of people, like you said, have been turned off by sourdough and they want their sourdough to be less sour. Your jest opinion is you want sourdough bread to be. Well, what's the opposite of sour?

[Jessica Batalana]

Sweet, I guess. Balance. Not sweet, but just a balance. I mean, I think you can appreciate the flavor of a sourdough without it, like, knocking you out with that sort of tanginess.

[David Tamarkin]

Yeah, it can get aggressive. And, you know, as a Midwesterner, I support anything that, like, is anti coasts, you know, like.

[Jessica Batalana]

Yes, exactly. So that's my opinion for this week, that I am not wild about those super sour sourdough. But to each their own, I suppose.

[David Tamarkin]

To each their own.

[Jessica Batalana]

We are out of time, but before we go. So I have one question for you, David, which is, what are you baking this week?

[David Tamarkin]

I'm on the hunt for something. I haven't nailed down the recipe yet, but I just really want some digestive biscuits.

[Jessica Batalana]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[David Tamarkin]

And the reason why is last time I was up at headquarters, I brought back a bag of our new oat flour. And I'm just looking for ways to use it, just to check it out. And digestive biscuits keep on coming up. So I wanna make some classic digestive biscuits. I love, like, wheaty oaty cookies, and I'm definitely gonna dip half of them.

[Jessica Batalana]

Into a. Oh, yeah, that's a good idea. I do have a recipe in my cookbook repertoire. They're called oat cakes in that book, but it's my grandmother's recipe. She was honestly a terrible baker, but she grew up in Nova Scotia. She was Scottish, and she made exceptional oat cakes. And she liked to serve them with either like a smear of butter and a halved date on top of it or with like a smear of soft blue cheese and a halved date.

[David Tamarkin]

Yes. Yes. I love this thing. This cookie slash cracker that can go either savory or sweet.

[Jessica Batalana]

Yeah, me too. So I'm also thinking of baking something sweet this week because every once in a while I get tasked with developing recipe and we're working on a classic tarte tatin. So I'm gonna try it a bunch of different ways, but one of the things I'm gonna try it with is our fast and easy puff pastry which has sour cream in it and it's a shortcut way to get flaky pastry. So I'm going to try it with that and with a pie dough and kind of compare and contrast.

[David Tamarkin]

I would not want to develop a tarte taton recipe because it would just take me forever. At the same time, I would want to develop it just so I can have lots and lots and lots of that's how I feel to turn around.

[Jessica Batalana]

Sadly, we are out of time for today.

[David Tamarkin]

Yes, yes, cut me up, please. Cut me up. I got to stop talking. Yes, we are out of time.

[Jessica Batalana]

Thank you for tuning in and joining us here on Things Bakers Know. We'll be back next week with an episode all about Biscuits.

[David Tamarkin]

Remember to like and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Jessica Batalana]

And leave us a review while you're there or share this episode with a friend.

[David Tamarkin]

We'll see you back here next week. In the meantime, don't forget, follow the recipe. Things Bakers Know is hosted and executive produced by me, David Tamarkian and me, Jessica Batallana. Rossi Anastapoulo is our senior producer. Chad Chennai is our producer and engineer. Original music by Megan and Marcus Bagala.

[Jessica Batalana]

This episode featured Amber Eisler, King Arthur's Baking School Director. You can learn more about the Baking school as well as Amber's On Demand Sourdough for beginners [e-mail] baking-school they're also linked in the show notes.

[David Tamarkin]

Things Bakers Know is a King Arthur Baking Company podcast.