Podcast Summary:

Things Bakers Know: The King Arthur Baking Podcast
Episode: Perfecting Chocolate Chip Cookies, featuring Zoë François
Date: April 28, 2025
Hosts: Jessica Battilana & David Tamarkin
Guest: Zoë François

Episode Overview

In their inaugural episode, Jessica Battilana and David Tamarkin of King Arthur Baking Company celebrate the legendary chocolate chip cookie. They examine its fascinating history, its current "extra" status in bakeries, and explore how tiny tweaks can create your perfect version. The episode features an insightful interview with cookbook author and baking expert Zoë François and answers listener questions on common cookie dilemmas. Alongside baking tips, the hosts share lively personal stories, including a notable debate over whether cookies should be eaten warm — and finish with a peek into space-baking history.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Chocolate Chip Cookie Craze

• Origins & Cultural Impact (01:19–02:07):
  Jessica recounts the cookie’s invention by Ruth Wakefield in the 1930s, its rise via Toll House and Chips Ahoy, and how it’s become America’s favorite.

• Modern Trends (03:08–04:46):
  David discusses the “extra era” of cookies—massive cookies, mini cookies, and wild mix-ins have transformed the classic. Many bakeries and chains have created new expectations: think giant, super sweet cookies.

  “Every chocolate chip cookie in 2025 is leaning into some sort of identity...super big, super small, super soft, super crispy, lots of seeds, cocoa nibs, espresso beans, whatever, jelly beans. I don’t know. People put everything in these things.” — David (03:21)

• Cookie Chains Boom (05:33–06:56):
  The hosts highlight the explosive growth of chains like Crumbl, with over a thousand stores and a billion-dollar business, shaping consumer expectations.

2. Interview with Zoë François (06:56–13:19)

• Personal Baking Roots (07:29–09:17):
  Zoë shares heartfelt stories of family recipes shaping her identity, including tales of her grandmother baking in Kiev during the Russian Revolution.

  “Literally, I would not be standing here if it weren’t for cookies.” — Zoë François (08:07)

• The Science & Joy of Tweaking Cookies (09:22–11:08):
  Zoë describes her obsessive testing—freezers full of dough!—and her philosophy: by showing bakers what a tweak does, she empowers experimentation.

  “I think when you show people the experiments you’re doing, it gives them freedom to do it as well.” — Zoë (09:49)

• The Quest for the Perfect Cookie (11:08–13:19):
  Zoë’s current personal favorite is her “Smash Cookie,” inspired by New York’s Levain Bakery but modified to have just the right "ooey gooey" center without being underdone.

  “I bake them so you get this sort of crispy outside. Then I smash them once they come out and let them set just like that. That way you get that sort of ooey gooey center.” — Zoë (12:16)

• Zoë’s Final Cookie Advice (13:28):

  “A big tall glass of milk. That’s it.” — Zoë (13:28)

3. Listener Q&A: Baking Troubles & Chocolate Choices

• Flat vs. Puffy Cookies (15:52–17:29):
  Advice: Weigh ingredients with a scale for accuracy; variations in flour measurement or inconsistent oven temperatures may cause unpredictable cookie height. An oven thermometer is also recommended.

  “Getting a scale will ensure that your baked good comes out the same every time.” — Jessica (16:41)

  “A too hot oven doesn’t make your cookies spread...it’s a too low oven that makes them spread because the hot oven sets the outside crust immediately.” — David (17:11)

• Chocolate Types, Chips vs. Chunks (18:14–20:34):
  Chips are designed not to melt, giving less “pooling” than chopped chocolate, which results in bigger chocolate patches and a different texture. Chocolate sweetness (semi-sweet vs. bittersweet) is a matter of preference.

  “If you're chopping your chocolate, you're going to get pools of chocolate throughout your cookie... Personally, that's my preference.” — David (19:14)

• Chocolateless Chocolate Chip Cookies (20:35–22:03):
  The hosts debate the rise of chipless cookies and posit that using darker chocolate might convert the unconvinced.

  “If you want a cookie without chocolate chips, just make a different cookie. Don’t make a chocolate chip cookie without chocolate chips. That’s just sad.” — Jessica (21:56)

• Is Raw Cookie Dough Safe? (22:06–24:14):
  No, due to risks from untreated flour and raw eggs. Commercial "safe to eat" doughs use heat-treated flour; there isn’t a reliable at-home method.

  “You really shouldn’t eat raw cookie dough...flour is a risk. The eggs are a risk...we have to say no to raw dough. What a bummer.” — Jessica (23:16)

4. Jess Opinions: The Warm Cookie Controversy (25:06–27:22)

• Jessica makes a bold confession: she doesn't like warm chocolate chip cookies—preferring “the warm side of room temperature” because it offers more texture contrast, not just goo.

  “What I don’t like about a warm chocolate chip cookie is that there is no sort of textural contrast. It's just sort of like raw dough.” — Jessica (26:03)

• David is initially shocked but concedes the textural argument.

  “The edges have not had time to set up and get crispy. So it’s all. It’s sort of like all middle.” — David (27:08)

5. Fun Cookie Facts: The First Cookie Baked in Space (27:40–33:20)

• Jessica shares the story of the first chocolate chip cookie baked in space, now in a museum, made possible by Zero G Kitchen and NASA.

• Baking a cookie in microgravity took 130 minutes! The astronauts couldn’t eat it (NASA’s safety protocols), but it paved the way for future space baking (next up: sourdough experiments).

  “They baked five cookies in all, and they tried to figure out how long...it took more than two hours to bake a single chocolate chip cookie.” — Jessica (30:14)

6. Hosts' Baking Plans (33:34–35:42)

• David is bread-focused, recommending King Arthur’s sesame wheat for its heartiness and versatility (great for making “schmaltz-soaked toast” under a roast chicken).
• Jessica plans to try a roti canai recipe—a flaky, South Asian flatbread ideal for weekend baking projects.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• The Joy of Baking Heritage:
  “Those two chapters changed the book...it became about the stories. It became about what I learned about myself.” — Zoë François (07:29)
• Empowering Tinkerers:
  “If you add a little bit more sugar, this is what's going to happen. Because people substitute in a recipe all the time.” — Zoë (09:49)
• The Host's Stance on Cookie Dough:
  “I want to give her cookie dough.” — David, after a young caller’s plea for edible dough (24:14)
• The Space Cookie:
  “It took more than two hours to bake a single chocolate chip cookie in space.” — Jessica (30:18)
• On Cookie Innovation:
  “Chocolate chip cookies never go out of fashion. People never get bored with them and they’re here to stay.” — Jessica (05:35)
• On Baking Questions:
  “I don't eat until we get a question. I don't sleep until we get a question. So please send a question. I'm hungry.” — David (15:41)
• Jess Opinions Mic Drop:
  “I do not like...warm chocolate chip cookies. I know, I know what's wrong with me?” — Jessica (25:06)

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Time | Segment | |----------|------------------------------------------------------| | 00:55 | Intro to the show and this episode’s cookie theme | | 01:19 | History of chocolate chip cookies | | 03:01 | David’s “extra” cookie observations | | 05:35 | Rise of cookie chains & Crumbl statistics | | 06:56 | Zoë François interview begins | | 09:22 | On substituting/tweaking cookie recipes | | 12:06 | The "Smash Cookie" technique | | 15:52 | Listener Q&A - flat/puffy cookies and ingredient weighing | | 18:14 | Listener Q&A - chocolate type and impacts | | 22:06 | Listener Q&A - why you shouldn't eat raw dough | | 25:06 | Jess Opinions: Cold vs. warm cookie debate | | 27:40 | “Space cookie” — first-ever cookie baked in space | | 33:35 | What the hosts are baking this week |

The Tone & Takeaways

This episode is warm, nerdy, and welcoming—packed with professional insights and relatable banter. The hosts strike a personable, mischievous tone, offering clear advice while celebrating personal taste. Both seasoned bakers and enthusiastic cookie eaters will enjoy their scientific curiosity, family baking nostalgia, and the “let’s all just eat more cookies” spirit.

For more chocolate chip cookie tips, recipes, and Zoë’s unbeatable Smash Cookie, check the show notes or visit KingArthurBaking.com.