← Things Bakers Know: The King Arthur Baking Podcast
Things Bakers Know: The King Arthur Baking Podcast
Talking All Things Butter, featuring Dorie Greenspan
00:54:41
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- [00:00]
A
This season is brought to you by Plugra Butter, a premium European style butter made using a slow churn process.
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B
And what he's sculpting are the busts of the winners and finalists of the Princess K of the Milky Way contest.
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A
Don't know what that is, but I'm obsessed with it.
- [00:19]
B
David. We're back, baby. Things bakers know, back for a second season, which means we must not have screwed it up too bad the first time around. And this second season is twice as long as season one. Ten episodes starting today. For all the bakers in America who have been missing us, we have been missing you too.
- [00:44]
A
Have you been getting letters from bakers saying, where are you? Where are you? Actually, we actually have gotten some comments on the podcast saying, where are you? Come back, come back. I'm like, chill, baby. We're going to be back soon. And here we are with season two. They said we'd be one hit wonders. And we're back.
- [00:59]
B
We're back.
- [01:00]
A
I wanna take this moment, actually, Jessica, to thank everybody who listened because we got a lot of love for the podcast in the first season, the very short first season. I loved reading the comments and I just want everyone to know, leave those comments. Leave those reviews. Because we do read them and it gives us a little boost and we do take constructive criticism kind of.
- [01:20]
B
I actually don't read them. I let our producers read them and just tell me if they're good. Cause, you know, I don't want to get too deeply in the weeds.
- [01:27]
A
But that's. That is good advice. Never read the comments.
- [01:29]
B
Never read the comments. And you know, I feel like I have actually during the summer break. I've really missed talking to you. I mean, I say that like we don't talk to one another like three times a day as is. But I've missed these moments to, you know, share these conversations about baking. I've really missed all the listener questions and just hearing what people are wondering about. So I'm just like eager to get, to get back into it. And I'm especially excited because, you know, you like to start with a bang. And so this first episode of season two, I think is an especially good one. But before we get into the topic, I wanted to ask you, David, What? How did you spend your summer vacation?
- [02:08]
A
I spent my summer traveling a lot and I did bake. Everywhere I went, I baked. And I basically carried a 9 by 13 pan with me. And anything you can make in a 9 by 13 pan, I made it. So it was like lots of brownies. Lots of bars, lots of blondies. I made my favorite rhubarb bars from the site, which was. I started doing that in spring and then kept it going as long as my frozen rhubarb.
- [02:30]
B
Those are the swirled rhubarb blondies?
- [02:33]
A
Yes, swirled rhubarb blondies. And they have some white chocolate in it, which is really good. They have did get great caramelized, crunchy edges and I swapped them to some other fruit when the rhubarb ran out. So it was really a 9 by 13 summer for me.
- [02:46]
B
It was a hot bar summer.
- [02:48]
A
Hot bar summer, yes.
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B
I have the opposite situation because, you know, I live in Portland, Maine, and I like, you know, I never want to leave Maine in the summer because.
- [02:57]
A
I feel like you have a rule, actually, don't you?
- [02:59]
B
I have a rule because we work pretty hard for these three months. We have a lot of summer birthdays in my household. So end of June, my older son had his birthday. August, my wife has her birthday. My dad turned 80 in late August, which was like a real milestone. So I did actually a lot of cake baking. And the cake that I was gravitating to the most is also baked in a 9 by 13 pan. It's like a.
- [03:24]
A
Well, we've gone over this. You love a sheep cake.
- [03:26]
B
I love a sheep cake. For a birthday cake party cake. So I made a bunch of those. And maybe the highlight was the chocolate one that I made with a toasted marshmallow whipped cream in between the layers. I borrowed the toasted marshmallow whipped cream from our S' mores Icebox cake recipe, which is on the website, and then, you know, put lots of chocolate frosting on it.
- [03:47]
A
Did you torch it?
- [03:48]
B
I. Well, for the toasted marshmallow whipped cream, you broil the marshmallows till they're toasty and then you just fold them into whipped cream so you get that, like, campfire nice, you know, without the campfire. And you could do it when it's not outdoor cookout season, like now. But, you know the thing that all of these baked goods have in common just to get us to the point of today's episode. The topic of today's episode is, well, anxiety. Yes. And it's not flour. Although that is true. And it's not sugar. Although that's true. It is.
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A
Am I supposed to guess?
- [04:22]
B
Yes. I've given you some very significant hints now.
- [04:25]
A
You've really narrowed it down.
- [04:26]
B
I really narrowed it down.
- [04:27]
A
Spoiler alert. I have a script in front of me, so I know the Answer. And the through line between all these.
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B
Bakes is butter, butter, glorious butter. I mean, I already feel like one episode devoted to butter is not going to be enough. No, but today's episode is all about magical, wonderful, creamy, delicious, B U T T E R butter.
- [04:50]
A
The core ingredient. I mean, one of the most crucial ingredients in baking. I mean, you could say that about a few things, but really, especially in American baking, it's really hard to bake without butter. And why would you even want to, you know?
- [05:03]
B
Yeah, why would you even want to? I mean, and all the best things, like from croissants to cuign amane to pie crust to just your everyday cookie, you know, it's built on butter, baby.
- [05:15]
A
You know?
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B
You know, last year, one of our colleagues got a hold of, like, a giant amount of butter from our friends at Vermont Creamery, which is also a B corp. Oh, I agree with company based in northern Vermont. And she sent out a message, does anyone want butter? And I was like, yes, I do. And I think she gave me, like, 20 pounds of butter that I put in my chest freezer. Humble brag. I have a chest freezer. I hope it comes up a million times in this podcast. And I. I just felt such a sense of, like, safety and security with my chest freezer full of butter. You know, I was like, I've made it. Like, I've got, like, whatever happens and a lot is happening in the world. I've got, you know, I've got the stockpile of butter. It was a little alarming when I got down to, like, the final pound, and I was like, oh, oh, you've.
- [06:08]
A
Already gone through it.
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B
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, it didn't take nearly as long. I don't want to tell people it wasn't as long as it wasn't as you'd hope. And I'd like to say, like, sometimes you make justifications for, like, oh, but I used it for X or I, you know. No, we just, you know, one cake at a time. Just got through.
- [06:27]
A
Well, you did have a lot of birthdays, so I had a lot of birthdays.
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B
I mean, we're heading into prime butter season.
- [06:33]
A
Absolutely. The holidays, the fall. Not just the holidays, but fall baking. I mean, it's funny, like, we're so used to calling this season that we're entering fall bake, because that's how we refer to it here at King Arthur internally. But I think it's a very useful term for everybody to know because we all experience it. We just have not all known that There's a name for it, but the name is Fall Bake, and we're about to enter it. And butter is crucial for it. Yeah, it's crucial for everything. I mean, it was interesting to research this episode a little bit. Not that I need to do a lot of research about butter because I'm pretty familiar, you know, but I wasn't familiar with some of the history of it. And it was sort of shocking to see just how long butter has been a part of our lives on this planet. 9,000 years. I didn't even know the planet was that old.
- [07:25]
B
What is this, like, yak butter?
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A
Buffalo butter was huge. And then, you know, of course, now it's cow butter.
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B
Butter was used for ceremonial purposes. It was used to be eaten probably like skin care, you know, just slathering, slicking your hair back with butter. I mean, when there were very few readily available other fats, like, butter had such value. Right. Like you have a diet that, like, is animal fats and that's it. That's all you got.
- [07:53]
A
And even used in religious practices and for art is one of the tidbits that, you know, we pulled in prep for this episode was about how Tibetan Buddhists still do elaborate butter carvings called tormas and used in their practices.
- [08:07]
B
So we may talk more about butter carving later in this episode too, because, you know, not just for Tibetans. Nope. Also for American state fairs. Well, when I was researching, I didn't get into the history, but I did reach out to our Test Kitchen director, Sarah and I. You know, our Test kitchen develops like 200 original recipes every year, which, by the way, are all available for free on our website. We're just giving away the farm. And I was like, just out of curiosity, how many pounds of butter do you think the Test Kitchen uses in a year? And she was actually able to pull out the invoices and it's 1,100 pounds of butter.
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A
Oh, my gosh.
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B
In the service of developing these recipes.
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A
And just let the record show that none of that butter goes to waste. Even as we're reti. We always give away the bakes. All that stuff, all that butter gets eaten.
- [08:57]
B
All that butter gets eaten. That's why our hair is so nice, our skin's so shiny. And I also think butter has, as you said, it's been around for 9,000 years. Butter based baked goods have been around for a very long time. But there's still a lot of innovation that happens with the use of butter and baked goods. And I think one of the things that caught Our eyes. Nicole Rucker, friend of King Arthur, put out her book Fat and Flour, her baking cookbook, which is great. And in it, she sort of, you know, makes a case for something that she calls the cold butter method.
- [09:34]
A
Cold butter method. Cbm.
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B
Cbm.
- [09:36]
A
Yeah. I love it. Nicole's a genius. I love the cold butter method. Now.
- [09:39]
B
Well, and you've been baking a bunch from the book, so I'd be. Will you tell our listeners what the. What CBM is and why it's so interesting?
- [09:47]
A
Yeah. So the cold butter method, as Nicole calls it, is not necessarily a new thing, but it is sort of knew the way that she's approaching it, and it sort of goes against expectations. So to take a step back, when we think about a lot of baked goods, the first step is often creaming room temperature butter with sugar. So the birthday cakes you made probably involved that step. A lot of cookies involved that step. And the purpose of creaming is to incorporate a little bit of air into the butter so that when the baked good goes into the oven, there's some air to help it rise.
- [10:22]
B
Yeah. Helps with structure, helps insulate it from the hot baking sheet, keeps it from spreading as much. So it's sort of a. It's functional. There's a functional reason that you cream butter and sugar.
- [10:35]
A
Absolutely. Yeah. But it's also sort of the most annoying part of baking because you have to wait for the butter to reach room temperature, which we're gonna put in that too, and circle back to that later. We're doing a lot of circling back in this podcast.
- [10:49]
B
Yeah. Stay tuned.
- [10:50]
A
We're circling back and. Right, it's like a board meeting in here. So the cold butter method is exactly what it sounds like. Instead of using room temperature butter for the creaming step, Nicole uses cold butter straight from the fridge, cuts it into chunks, throws it in there with the sugar and the dry ingredients. And that's crucial, too. It's not. She doesn't just cream it with the sugar. She creams it with the flour, the leavener, and the sugar. This is very similar to a method that we talked about in the first season of reverse creaming. That's basically what the cold butter method is. It's reverse cream.
- [11:25]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [11:26]
A
The thing that interests me about what Nicole was doing is that she uses the cold butter method in almost every recipe in her book. And her book spans, you know, pie dough, where CBM cold butter method is very common because anything you where you want, like a kind of a short texture biscuits piece, you usually start with cold butter because you're trying to retain little pockets of intact butter that then turn into steam in the oven and create flakes. Whereas with a cake and a cookie, you know, you're trying to have a more even distribution of butter. But she applies it to. So she applies the cold butter method to pie, but also to a whole chapter of banana breads, a whole chapter of cookies, and whole chapter of brownies and bars. And so what I think was interesting here is that it really goes against people's expectations. So people who have been baking for years, like you and myself and a lot of our listeners, were so trained to start with room temperature butter and cream and think that, like, oh, no, no, the butter, the temperature matters, and we can't mess with that. And it does. It truly does. But what Nicole's book shows is that there's a way to also formulate a recipe that uses cold butter. And it's very convenient. And the recipes are really great. I mean, I made her chocolate chip cookie, her kind of classic chocolate chip cookie, with the cold butter method. You mix it for a while, you mix the butter, the cold butter, and the dry ingredients for about five minutes, which is a long time to cream something. But the resulting cookie, you have cookies in 30 minutes, and they're good. They're really crispy around the edges. I really was into those cookies. So I think that it's not necessarily a new technique that Nicole has invented, but she's contextualized it in a new way that I think is exciting.
- [13:13]
B
Well, and I love it because, as you said, circling back, I am a very lazy baker. And so softening butter, having room temperature butter is, like, often a pain point for me. And so the idea, I feel set free by the idea of just, like, tossing some cold butter, you know, and actually, our test kitchen director, Sarah, you know, she wrote something at one point saying that it's the rule of butter that no matter what you want to bake, butter will never be at the right temperature. And I totally feel that it's like, oh, you want to make pie crust in the summer, like, your butter's melting. Like, oh, you want to make cookies in winter? Forget about it. You got to wait three days for your butter to get softened. So I think there is something really interesting about this idea of, like, making the butter work for you. Right. I also think, like, there's a lot of potential in going the opposite route and, you know, baking with melted butter.
- [14:06]
A
Yeah.
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B
For the sake. Same reason. And that reason is laziness. When I read a recipe that's like melted butter. I'm like, hallelujah. Like, we can get this. Like, this is gonna be on the table.
- [14:15]
A
Turning on my stove now.
- [14:17]
B
And our friend Jesse Sevcheck wrote a blog for us a couple of years ago about using melted butter in baked goods, which I took to be sort of like the gospel and similar to using cold butter. You know, it prevents too much air from being introduced into the mixture via creaming. So you get in terms of cookies, like a denser, fudgier cookie, which can be a really dis. Desirable texture. And then you can introduce, like, another layer of flavor through browning that melted butter, too. So, like, the versatility of butter sort of on both sides of the spectrum is great. And you think about, like, other ingredients, like flour, sugar, you know, sort of the. The cornerstones of baking. Like, you can't really manipulate those very much. Like, you can use brown sugar, you can use white sugar. You know, you can vary the type of flour you use, or you could toast your flour. But in general, like, there's not such a sea change in what you can do to those ingredients that will affect your baked goods in the way that, like, manipulating your butter will. I mean, I feel like we've barely scratched the surface, but I did want to. I mean, we have a. We have a really special guest. Dorie Greenspan.
- [15:25]
A
Yeah, Dory. Yeah, we're in for a real treat. Like, we are blessed by the presence of my friend Dorie Greenspan. Dorie doesn't really need an introduction, but I'm going to give her one anyway. She's written 14 cookbooks, her 15th anytime cakes, and is coming out in just a few weeks on October 21st. She's won five James Beard awards, and one of her books was a little pamphlet in the short stack series, which you wrote the corn one.
- [15:52]
B
I wrote the corn one, yeah.
- [15:53]
A
That was a great little series of cookbooks. Dory wrote the butter one. So she's a great one to talk to. She's just a master home baker. She knows cookies, cakes, pies, everything. And we're going to talk to her about all of it. Dory divides her time between New York City, Connecticut, and Paris, which some people call the City of Light. We call the City of Butter. Yep.
- [16:15]
B
I mean, Dory, if our test kitchen has used 1100 pounds of butter in the last year, like, Dory can't be far behind.
- [16:21]
A
Let's ask her. Dorie Greenspan, welcome to Things Bakers Know. It's so fabulous to see you. I always love talking to you.
- [16:32]
C
It's the way I feel about you.
- [16:34]
A
Thank you, Dorie. First things first. Since we're talking about butter, I want to ask you a very important, which is how much butter is in your fridge right now and what types.
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C
So right now, I counted because. Because I counted. I had a feel. I had a feeling this was coming up. I have a baker's dozen worth of pounds of butter. So I've got 13. 13 pounds of butter.
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A
13 pounds? Oh, I thought you were gonna say 13 sticks. That's not 13 sticks. 13 pounds.
- [17:04]
C
13 pounds of butter. You know, a girl can never be. You know, I buy butter. I buy butter in bulk. I buy butter when it's on sale. I buy butter when somebody lends me their card to Restaurant Depot.
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A
And is it all the same type? In your new book, Dory's Anytime Cakes, you call for American unsalted butter. Is that what you have stocked?
- [17:30]
C
Yeah. So I made this decision a long, long time ago. I wanted all of my recipes to be as accessible, as doable as. I mean, there are times when there are ingredients that, you know, somebody's going to have to go out and get them, but butter should be the basic. And so I always test with American supermarket butter.
- [17:53]
A
Yeah.
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C
However, among. Well, I didn't count this in my butter stash. When I come back from Paris, I bring butter with me, of course.
- [18:03]
A
What kind of butter do you bring?
- [18:05]
C
So I bring salted butter demiselle. So it's got crystals of salt in it. The kind of salt that it's so present, you just know it's there. I never bake with it. You can actually, you know, feel the crystals. I always bake with unsalted butter and add as much salt as I think the recipe needs.
- [18:27]
A
We won't stick with the French butter too long because we're here to talk about. I guess we're here to talk about American butter.
- [18:32]
C
Well, may I just tell you two butter stories?
- [18:36]
A
Yeah.
- [18:36]
C
Okay. I'll make it fast. So the first was. It was my first trip to Paris by myself. I'm in my 20s, and a woman invites me. I must have looked so lost. She invited me to come home and have dinner at her apartment with her niece, who was my age. And she made a chicken in a pot. And it was that. That really inspired me to have that recipe on the COVID around my French table. But she was showing me the chicken. She's showing me what she's doing. And she took butter and she handed it to me on a spoon. She said, this is good butter. And I closed My eyes and concentrated on it. And I had never thought that butter could be a major food group, that it was that that important.
- [19:25]
A
Was that just a random woman on the street who pulled you out of the.
- [19:29]
C
Yeah, I know it sounds very strange. So I was sitting in a cafe writing a letter to Michael. I must have looked really lonely. And she was sitting next to me and we started to talk and she said, what are you doing for dinner? I'm making a chicken. Would you like to come? And it was. That evening was a revelation. The chicken, the butter and her passion for it and just her giving me this taste and wanting me to taste it just stayed with me for decades.
- [20:02]
A
Yeah. How could it not? It's a wonderful story. Thank you. Joy, I want to talk to you a little bit about some of the recipes in your new book. And one recipe that I think we have to talk about, since we're talking about butter, are the extra buttery madeleines. And first of all, that's how I. Did I say that, like in American. Madeleine, Madeleine.
- [20:18]
C
Madeleine. Madeleine.
- [20:19]
A
Okay, Medland, you have an extra buttery vanilla version in your book. And I'm just so interested to know how you landed on the right amount of butter in that recipe.
- [20:29]
C
So this one is a combination of all the madeleines I've made between the last time I published a madeleine recipe and this one. So madeleines are those beautiful shell shaped little cakes known to have a bump in the middle of them. They're based on a genoise and so a sponge cake. And with a genoise, you're beating whole eggs and sugar and you're folding in flour and the last thing you fold in is butter. I was happy with more butter. My. I wanted the madeleines to be really a cake. And so for this recipe I used more butter than I usually do. And it turns out this will not surprise you. More butter is better. It's just. It was just delicious.
- [21:31]
A
I want to move on from cake. I know, I know you're in a cake mode. And I, by the way, I love your new book. And I was just spending some time with my mom and she said, David, you've given me so many great cookbooks over the years. I love them. And then she just said, sort of quietly, she's like, I haven't received many this year. So very Jewish mother.
- [21:50]
C
Such a Jewish mother.
- [21:52]
A
So I'm planning to send her Dory's Anytime Cakes. You know, the minute I can.
- [21:57]
C
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
- [21:58]
A
Okay, let's do a little lightning round because we are getting Close to the end of our time here. Favorite butter recipe. Can you even choose?
- [22:05]
C
What a funny question.
- [22:06]
A
I know.
- [22:07]
C
Sublais, sublet. So French. You know, butter, cookies or a crust.
- [22:13]
A
Yeah. Which, I mean, I don't know what you think, but those two things are not so different from each other.
- [22:18]
C
Not at all. Not at all. They're very, very similar. Love them.
- [22:20]
A
This is a controversial one for me. I don't know if this is controversial for you. What's your position on keeping room temperature butter out on the counter at all times?
- [22:29]
C
I don't. Michael does. My husband does.
- [22:32]
A
Well, he's a bread baker.
- [22:34]
C
He keeps it for slathering on bread, right?
- [22:37]
A
Yeah.
- [22:38]
C
But when you're mixing, creaming the butter and sugar together, if it's too soft, you're not going to get the air that you want. And so butter that's been sitting out, especially in a warm room, it's between melted and solid.
- [22:56]
A
But room temp.
- [22:58]
C
Yeah.
- [22:58]
B
Pushable.
- [22:59]
C
I like to think you should be able to put your thumb on the butter and have your thumbprint remain.
- [23:04]
A
Okay. Dory, is there anything else about butter that you want to talk. Anything else you need to say about butter? Dory, this is your opportunity.
- [23:12]
C
I won't tell you about winter butter because we don't have time, so.
- [23:15]
A
Oh, wait, no, wait. What is that? Because this is coming out in the fall, so let's. What is winter butter?
- [23:20]
C
Well, so two things. We're back in France. When I go to the market in Paris, I guess in about April, you start hearing people say, look at the butter. It's spring butter. And when I was first starting to work with Pierre Hermes, he said to me, do you use winter butter for your puff pastry? And I said I'd never heard of winter butter. And so that's the butter that comes from when the cows are eating hay. And it's a drier butter. It's very rich, but drier. And very good for laminated doughs.
- [24:00]
A
Oh, that's so fascinating.
- [24:02]
C
You know, it depends on the butter. But I could imagine, because I get so excited by the color and the people around me saying, look, look, look at the butter, that it's a treat.
- [24:14]
A
There are so many things in this conversation that I are making me a little jealous, honestly. Like, I want to be whiffed away by a French woman in a cafe and have her feed me butter. I want to know what time of year it is by the color of the butter. I mean, that is so special. I love it.
- [24:28]
C
Ooh, maybe we can make a butter clock or A butter calendar. A butter calendar. Oh, David, we just don't have time. I mean, the amount of salt that goes into the butter. Mmm. But, you know, just to make you feel like you're not missing out on everything in bread. As I said, some of the butter can just be pretty ordinary.
- [24:50]
A
I think you're saying that just to be nice to me, and I appreciate that. Dory. It's a pleasure to talk to you about butter and to talk to you about cakes. Congratulations on your new book and thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I hope you'll come back.
- [25:04]
C
Thank you, thank you, thank you. I love spending time with you. Thanks.
- [25:19]
B
This episode is brought to you by Plugra Butter. Now, I'm a huge fan of Plugra butter and part of the reason I love it is because it's an 82% butterfat butter, which means it has more fat than standard butters, less water, and it makes your baked goods so delicious and tender and buttery. It's my go to.
- [25:40]
A
I love Plutarch butter for spreading on bread. It's so good that way. But I also like baking with it. I just baked a biscuit with it and that biscuit was so rich, so decadent. And then I put more Plugra on top of it.
- [25:51]
B
Double Plugra is the way to go. You can find Plugra at your grocery store. Look for it. We keep it in our fridge. You can keep it in yours.
- [25:59]
A
Look for Plugra wherever fine butters are sold.
- [26:09]
B
This episode is brought to you by our Golden Wheat Flour. This is a super special flour that used to go by the name white whole wheat flour. It's a whole grain flour milled from hard white spring wheat and it's a lighter colored grain than traditional red wheat, so it yields a milder tasting baked good.
- [26:26]
A
I love this flour. It has all the benefits of whole wheat flour, but it bakes up like all purpose flour and it's sustainably grown with regenerative practices, which is really just icing on the cake.
- [26:37]
B
You can use golden wheat flour for bread, of course, but also for cakes, cookies and more. You can find golden wheat flour in stores or on our website@KingarthurBaking.com okay, people, it's time for our next segment. Ask the Bakers for Ask the Bakers. We want to hear from you. If you have a baking question for us, head to kingarthurbaking.com podcast to record a voice message and we may end up using it on the show. That's kingarthurbaking.com podcast and of course, if.
- [27:13]
A
You have a baking question that simply cannot wait, you can always reach out to our baker's hotline via phone, email, or online chat. Just go to kingarthurbaking.com Bakers Hotline. That's kingarthurbaking.com bakers hotline. Or call us at 855-371-2253. That's 2253, as in bake.
- [27:39]
B
I love these listener questions, so please call in. I think it's the, you know, it's the bread and butter, pardon the pun of. Oh, of things bakers know. So no question too big? Well, probably some questions too big. No question too small.
- [27:58]
A
Definitely not too small.
- [28:00]
B
Not too small. Probably too big. But we could always phone a friend. But with that preamble, let's listen to our first question for today's episode.
- [28:09]
D
Hi. I really like the idea of using milk powder when you brown butter in the Rice Krispie treats on your website. I'm wondering if you can do this with all baked goods when you brown butterfly. I'm also wondering how malt milk powder would work in place of the whole milk powder. I really appreciate this and love all of the tips and everything on your website.
- [28:30]
B
She loves everything on our website.
- [28:32]
A
And she was recording from a bird sanctuary.
- [28:34]
B
I know. Sounds so peaceful. So the recipe that she's referencing is one of my personal favorites. That was developed by our colleague Lydia Fournier for the ultimate Rice Krispies treat. And I think the brief for Lydia was like, you know, there are no shortage of Rice Krispie treat recipes in the world, but how can we sort of like, next level, a Rice Krispie treat? And Lydia had a lot of really smart additions to, you know, sort of the classic recipes, critically. And since this is what the caller is asking about, she, you know, Rice Krispies always start with melting butter. Then you add the marshmallows, you melt that matrix together, you add your cereal. So Lydia was sort of thinking about this, and she was thinking about the delicious flavor of brown butter. So brown butter is like you melt butter till the milk solids sink to the bottom of the pan, and then the milk solids start to brown and toast, and it gives the butter, like, just such a good, nutty, delicious flavor. And what's sinking to the bottom and browning are the protein solids in the butter. Right. So Lydia, genius that she is, thought like, okay, if we like brown butter, what would happen if we added milk powder, which is essentially just more protein, to the melted butter, and we toast it along with melted butter? Like, would you get extra Nutty brown butter. And the answer is yes. And so that's the recipe that this caller is asking about. So that's a little bit of background. And everyone should make these because they're outrageous. So I reached out to Lydia.
- [30:13]
C
Because.
- [30:13]
B
Honestly, I didn't know. And I figured she had done some experimentation. And the first thing that she said is that she would not recommend swapping in malted milk powder. She said that some of our readers had tried that and left a comment on the recipe that it didn't work. You know, malted milk powder has other things in it besides just milk powder. So she said if you want to add malted milk powder to a baked good and specifically to these Rice Krispie treats, she would add it, like, with the dry ingredients or with the cereal. But then to answer the second part of the question, you know, could you add milk powder to any recipe that calls for brown butter? And Lydia thought yes, that you could. She advised that you start with a small amount of additional milk powder. And she did caution that you shouldn't, like, you shouldn't swap melted butter in for any old recipe. Like, start with a recipe that calls for, you know, melted butter or brown butter and then experiment by adding a small amount of additional milk powder and sort of working up from there. But I think it's like a really a trick for the ages. So, yes, with Lydia's blessing, toast on, but don't sub in malted milk powder.
- [31:28]
A
Wow. It's always great when someone calls in and asks if they can do something and we can say yes, because I feel like we often say no.
- [31:35]
B
You know, I knew that if I asked Lydia, she would have tried things, you know, because there's so much rigor in our test kitchen that often when I have a question about something like, oh, did you try this? The answer is like, yes, we did. We tried baking it on our heads. We tried baking it in this pan and this pan and with, you know, gluten free flour.
- [31:53]
A
So how do you think they get through 1100 pounds of butter every year?
- [31:56]
B
Exactly. The testing, test and retest. I mean, and I do think not to toot our own horns, but, like, isn't that what distinguishes, like, random online recipe that might fail you from our recipes? Like, they have been tested to the point that nobody in the test kitchen wants to bake them ever again. And then they're set free into the world, but, you know, they're gonna work.
- [32:17]
A
Let's solve another problem.
- [32:20]
D
Hi, I'm wondering if you guys could just talk a little bit about how to tell when butter is properly creamed. Thank you.
- [32:29]
B
I thought we might get this one. You know, it's fundamental.
- [32:32]
A
This stresses people out.
- [32:33]
B
I think it stresses people out.
- [32:36]
A
Okay, not you. You're like, not me. Oh. It's like the one thing on earth that doesn't stress me out. So let me talk about it. So there are a lot of ways to tell. Well, not a lot, but there are a few ways to tell when butter is properly creamed. And one of the easiest is just to look at the color. It's one of the things that I love most. It's a. I love the color of butter. The end. I love seeing it lighten as it creams. So once you cream butter, you can kind of tell that it's been properly creamed when it's turned a shade whiter. Did you have something to say about that?
- [33:09]
B
I did. I had something to say, which is. Of course I had something to say. The thing I want to say is getting back to what we were talking about earlier, which is like, temperature, Right. You'd want truly room temperature butter for proper creaming. So, like, yes.
- [33:22]
A
People start with too soft butter often.
- [33:25]
B
Oh, I. And I do the opposite because I am impatient. So I'm like, trying to, you know, rush it along. And then I'm like, I'm sure it's fine. And then what I do this is don't do this at home. I throw the butter, the cold butter in and I. I put my hands around the mixer bowl as though like I'm like, around a campfire or something. Like, as if the heat of my hands is going to make that big of a difference. And you should be able to press your finger into it. And it should feel sort of like modeling clay. Right. Like, you should press into it but not be able to, like, jam your finger all the way through it. That's too soft.
- [33:59]
A
Your finger should not fall through the butter.
- [34:01]
B
Your finger should not fall through the butter. And your finger should not, like, not be able to make an indentation.
- [34:06]
A
Right. You should be able to easily make an indentation into your butter.
- [34:10]
B
But I mean, you can say, like, suppose you start with butter that's too cold. Well, you can just stop and let it warm up and then you can beat it again. Like, you can save it. Yeah, but I think you're right, David. The Goldilocks zone is when you have room temperature butter and you beat it with the sugar and it gets like, really? It changes in color. It becomes, like, pale. It's like, looks fluffy. And I Think it's sort of like it sits tall in the mixing bowl. Right? Like it's almost like it's got peaks to it, which I think is another tell that you've beaten it, you know, properly. We do have a blog all about creaming butter and sugar and it has a lot of step by step photos, which is helpful so we can link that blog in the show notes so that people can see what we're talking about when we say, you know, nice peaks and paler in color, you get some visual indicators there. But I think we have some more questions, so let's move on to the next one. Hello.
- [35:09]
D
I have a question about how to soften butter quickly. Sometimes I will be reading a recipe and I will realize that it says room temperature butter and I've forgotten to take it out of the fridge and was curious if you had any tips and tricks about how to get it soft as quickly as possible. Thanks.
- [35:26]
B
Well, this is relatable. As we've been saying.
- [35:29]
A
It's never happened to me.
- [35:31]
B
Never?
- [35:32]
A
No. I'm so organized. I always think three months ahead.
- [35:36]
B
I would like to say like just pivot to like, you know, the CBM method or you know, melted butter. But of course not every recipe is durable enough to have you just like swapping the form of the butter.
- [35:48]
A
Right. And there are plenty of easy ways to do this. So what is your.
- [35:53]
B
Well, for me, it's just laying on my hands. No, I'm kidding.
- [35:56]
A
Just press your hands on the butter and wait in there.
- [35:59]
B
Just put it in your bra and wait. I don't know. What is your, what's your go to method?
- [36:05]
A
Well, I live in a microwave less home, so I don't have a microwave. So my method, I cut the butter into like tablespoon sized pieces, so about eight pieces and I spread the pieces out on a plate and honestly, it happened so much faster than you think. Like 20 minutes depending of course on is it cold or outside in the house, whatever, but usually within 20 minutes I'm good to go.
- [36:36]
B
That's amazing. I mean, I think. I don't know if I've mentioned the podcast before. I know I've talked to like every one of my colleagues about how we keep our home at like meat locker temperatures.
- [36:45]
A
Oh, yes.
- [36:45]
B
I don't know. Like, I don't know. Is it like our Yankee thrift? Is it?
- [36:49]
A
I think, you know, it's always austerity measures in the bottom line of household.
- [36:53]
B
So 20 minutes would not do it for me. But I do have a microwave and you know, our Producer Rossi did a blog last year where she tested all these different methods, like putting a stick of butter in a Ziploc bag and, you know, submerging it in warm water, like, leaving, you know, all these different things. And the method that she thought worked the best, which is now, the method that I have adopted, is you take a stick of butter and you stand it on its end in the microwave.
- [37:20]
A
Yeah. And you microwave it so it stands. It looks like the Washington Monument.
- [37:24]
B
Exactly. And you microwave it for. In my microwave. I know every microwave is a little different for, like, 10 seconds. Then you flip it over 10 seconds, and that seems to work great. Like, you don't get the pool. You know, if you lay it down, it's always, like, a slick of butter underneath it. It's not foolproof. I've definitely gone too far. And then you're like, oh, no. Like, and once you've melted butter, even if it's re solidified in the fridge, it's never the same. Like, you've got to save that for.
- [37:49]
A
Something else that's actually scientifically true. Like, it changes the composition of the butterfly.
- [37:54]
B
I like that you just thought. I just was saying it for conjecture.
- [37:58]
A
That's not fake news. Like everything else on this show, that. That thing is true. I guess I said that because it surprised me when I found out. I was like, really? I mean, yeah, but it's really. It's very interesting.
- [38:08]
B
But I think the microwave works pretty well. And I will say, as we head into the holidays, I just keep pounds of butter. Pounds, plural. Like, I just keep them on my counter because my house is not, you know, not so warm that there's going to be any spoilage situation. So I just leave them there, and then they're just ready at a moment's notice.
- [38:28]
A
Right. You know, that's one of my favorite things about the King Arthur Test Kitchen. When you walk into the King Arthur Test Kitchen, every station has a big block of butter that's at the perfect temperature, and they just keep it out.
- [38:41]
B
I know people wonder. They wonder. Like, they. I think people are curious about the Test Kitchen, and they're like, is it really as amazing as it sounds? And I'm like, yeah, it is. Like, not only is there a steady supply of, like, cakes and cookies and, you know, everything to. For us to taste, but also. Yeah, just these blocks of room temperature, like, spreadable butter.
- [39:00]
A
Yep.
- [39:01]
B
I think that's. I'm sure that's what exists in heaven. Heaven would be a place where the butter is always the right temperature.
- [39:06]
A
I am so close to singing that song right now. Heaven is a place on Earth. I'm not going to, but I'm so close.
- [39:15]
B
I know. That's. I mean, we are dating ourselves by. Some people out there will know the song you're referring to.
- [39:20]
A
I bet our producers will not be definitely not going to know that song. What was it that she didn't know? She didn't know, like, who, like Michael Jackson was or something?
- [39:27]
B
Oh, Annie Lennox, I think.
- [39:29]
A
Annie Lennox. Same thing.
- [39:30]
B
You know, it made me feel like I was 100 years old. Oh, she says she does know that song. She just pinged me on our chat.
- [39:35]
A
To say, oh, no. Okay, well, you know those re those comments that we have solicited. Now we're going to get comments that we're abusing our producer, which.
- [39:41]
B
Yeah, exactly.
- [39:42]
A
Which we probably are. Sorry, Rossi.
- [39:44]
B
I think we have one, maybe two more questions. People had a lot to ask us about butter.
- [39:48]
A
I was just happy to keep on talking, but that's fine. We can go to the questions. Hello. I was wondering what the best vegan butter substitute is or if you guys have any tips with baking with vegan butter or baking with dairy free butter? No. Next question.
- [40:06]
B
You're terrible.
- [40:08]
A
I just don't have experience with it.
- [40:10]
B
But I do feel like if perhaps some vegan listeners have gotten to this point in the podcast when we've been like talking non stop about how much we love butter. I'm very pleased to say that we did a very rigorous blog post about this a couple of years ago, which we'll put in the show notes. And one of our longtime bakers and former employee owners, PJ Hamill, like, she went for it. So she got several brands of. Yes, she got several brands of vegan butter and she made pie crust with it. She also baked it into like these thin and crispy cookies. She did puff pastry with it. Like she put it through its paces to see side by side what would happen. And so she used Earth Balance. They're vegan buttery sticks. And then she used the Miyoko's European style vegan butter and then just Orlando Lakes Butter next to it. Worth noting, the Earth Balance is all oil based. The Miyokos one has cashews in it. That's sort of what it gives it that cultured taste. So not appropriate if you have a nut allergy. But she tried them all and functionally they actually performed quite similarly, which I was surprised by. She noted that the baked goods across the board that were made with the dairy butter brown better which does not surprise me because, you know, the milk proteins and the sugars and milk are going to, you know, encourage that browning. But in terms of like the behavior of them, they were actually quite similar. And she did note a flavor difference, obviously, like, that's not gonna be shocking. But she did say that the Miyokos, which is sort of billed as a cultured butter. And so she said that that was actually a flavor that you could detect in the finished baked good. And the earth balance, you know, has sort of a more neutral flavor because it is all oil. But basically she just was swapping it, you know, one for one. And of course, like, if you're baking things that have other dairy products in them, you know, like eggs as well as, like, you're gonna have to make additional swaps. But she explores that in the blog too. And I mean, the great news is, yes, it's totally possible to make vegan baked goods that taste good and that behave in a similar fashion to, you know, to traditional baked goods. And, and in particular when it's a baked good that doesn't have eggs in it. Because of course, eggs have their, you know, play their own role. But I was, I was impressed. So that blog, we'll link in the show notes cause it's quite comprehensive and we also have quite a few vegan recipes on the site that are also quite good. So totally possible. And that was news to me. Cause like you, David, I don't bake with any, any vegan butter. But it's nice to know it's an option for people.
- [42:53]
A
Yeah. And you know, I joke about not being vegan. Well, that's no joke. I'm not vegan. But you know, there are good reasons to bake with dairy alternatives even if you're not vegan. I mean, the fact is, cows, which give us all the delicious dairy products we eat, are a huge contributor to climate change. So anytime we bake with, you know, an alt ingredient with non dairy substitutes for dairy, we're doing a little tiny thing for the climate, which is a notable thing, a noble thing, I should say. So I take back any sarcasm I had about baking with vegan butters. And just on the PJ note, you know, PJ Hamill is a legend here at King Arthur. So many of our listeners and our readers know that name and have followed her work for so long. And if you don't know her, it's really worth, you know, clicking on her name on the website and searching, you know, reading through her archives because what she did for this Alt butter piece she does for everything. She goes so deep, she tests every angle. I really think we should like coin a new term for it. Like, like she PJ'd it.
- [44:01]
B
It's been PJ'd. Yeah.
- [44:02]
A
It's been PJ'd.
- [44:03]
B
Yeah. I think that's all of our questions for today. As always, if you have a baking question kingarthurbaking.com podcast you can record it and you may be featured on a future episode. We love your questions. Keep em coming. Well, David, have I got a treat for you today.
- [44:24]
A
Oh, it's. You always have treats for me.
- [44:27]
B
You know, whenever we are working on an episode about a particular topic, usually for a period of weeks or months before we record, I go like down a bit of a rabbit hole. That is what has led me in recent weeks to learn all about the art of butter carving. So, I mean, eating butter is all well and good, but have you ever seen a person carve a 90 pound block of butter into the bust of a Dairy Princess?
- [44:54]
A
Nope, don't. And I don't even know what half.
- [44:56]
B
Those words mean, honestly, because I have. And now my life has been forever altered. It's fair culture, right? This is the time of year where there's all the big ag fairs, but one of the best known is the Minnesota State Fair. And at the Minnesota State Fair, as there is the case at many state fairs, there's a dairy barn. And at the Minnesota State Fair, this barn, it's, you know, they talk about butter, they talk about ice cream, yogurt, all these things. But in the middle of the dairy barn, There is a 10 foot refrigerated glass booth called the butter booth that rotates very slowly. So inside that booth is a man named Jerry Culzer.
- [45:35]
A
Oh, it's always the same guy.
- [45:36]
B
Yes, he's the butter carver in residence at the Minnesota State Fair. And that was his.
- [45:41]
A
Does he ever leave the booth or is he there year round and just people come visit him?
- [45:45]
B
He carves year round. But this is like his big thing. He actually is a sculptor by trade. He's an art teacher. He sculpts in things other than butter because really they're the same sort of techniques and tools that you would use on clay. So butter carving had been part of the Minnesota State Fair since 1965. Of course, I had like a million questions for poor Jerry. And he was so patient. You know, he's a Midwesterner, so kind, so patient. And so what I learned is that he spends 10 days at the fair inside this rotating Butter booth, which is refrigerated. It's kept at about 40 degrees. So he's like, wearing winter clothes.
- [46:20]
A
Yeah.
- [46:21]
B
And he's sculpting these. He starts with a 90 pound block of butter that's donated by Minnesota Dairy Association. And what he's sculpting are the busts of the winners and finalists of the Princess K of the Milky Way contest.
- [46:35]
A
Don't know what that is, but I am obsessed with it.
- [46:37]
B
I am obsessed with it.
- [46:38]
A
Princess K of the Milky Way.
- [46:39]
B
Of the Milky Way, yes. And the title of the princess is bestowed to the winner of a statewide Minnesota Dairy Princess program.
- [46:48]
A
And he's sculpting from a photo?
- [46:50]
B
No. Oh, he is sculpting from life. So in the booth with him is each finalist and the winner of the Princess K competition. And it takes him about six hours to carve each bust. So he says, you know, like, they get cold, right? He's like, oh, my hands. Stop working. The princesses get cold. You know, Princesses. So high maintenance. And he says as he works, you know, he's carving off butter from this big block. And then at the end of the day, the subject gets to take home, like, a pail of the butter trimmings.
- [47:27]
A
Oh, I love it.
- [47:28]
B
Which honestly, sounds like a great goodie bag.
- [47:31]
A
Yeah.
- [47:31]
B
And then at the end of the fair, they get to take their bust home. You know, he said they, like, a lot of people do, like, parties where they have, like, a big corn boil and they serve the bust, the butter bust, along with the boiled corn. And he told me that some people keep their busts for years in their chest freezers. And sometimes, like, the mother may have also been a Princess K of the Milky Way. And so they have, like, the mother's butter bust and then the daughter's butter bust. Sort of like wedding cake, right?
- [48:00]
A
Like, just like wedding cake. Except that this time you're opening the freezer and seeing the bust of your mother every time you go, like, to get some ice.
- [48:08]
B
Honestly, I didn't know it was a life goal to have a butter bust made of myself. And I asked him, I was like, oh, do you ever take butter home? And he was like, oh, no, it's not really my butter to take. And sometimes the princesses will give me some. It's also sort of nice because I was asking, like, oh, does all that butter get wasted? And he's like, no. You know, people end up using it. Like, some people donate the butter, some people take it home and just like, chip off parts of the Bust and use it for cooking or baking. Anyway, it was really fun to talk to Jerry. He's a very cool guy. He has a website. I'm going to put a link to the website in the show notes. We also have a video of him carving butter at the fair, which I'm going to put in the show notes so you can see him in his revolving booth. But I thought you'd like that one.
- [48:48]
A
I do like that one. I think, you know, the more attention we can give to the idiosyncrasies of the Midwest, the better. So thank you.
- [48:57]
B
You're welcome.
- [49:01]
A
Every episode, we like to check in with Jessica to see what wildly surprising and full throated ideas are in her head. A segment we lovingly call Jess opinions. Jessica, what is your first Jess opinion of season two?
- [49:14]
B
Well, this week I know we have talked so much about how delicious butter is. How I always keep butter on my counter during this baking season. So a surprising thing that I'm gonna share with you is that I actually think the best pie crust are made with a combination of butter. Yes. But also shortening.
- [49:35]
A
Oh, okay. Hot on the heels of that vegan butter conversation we just had.
- [49:41]
B
And you know, the thing is, because in addition to the pain point for me of having room temperature butter, the other pain point for me is pie crust shrinkage. Like, I have tried all of the tricks. You know, I chill my pie crust before I bake it, I fill it to the brim with pie weights. But I feel like no matter what I do, no matter how much overhang I have on my pie, no matter how much I chill it, like how much I fill it, it still shrinks. And that is such a bummer. Like, you put it in the oven, it looks great, and then you take out your par baked pie shell and it's, you know, half the pie it used to be. You're like, oh, I guess I'll just put like one ounce of pumpkin pie filling into this. Like, that'll be fine.
- [50:25]
A
You. Pie crust with a combination of fats shrinks less.
- [50:29]
B
Yes, I think an all butter pie crust shrinks more. You know, and we're gonna, we're gonna talk about pies later in the season. So, you know, we'll get into this in greater detail. So, you know, come back for that. But yes, I think all butter pie crusts shrink more. I also think, you know, if you add shortening to the flour in a pie crust, like, shortening is gonna get coated with every, like with all the flour granules. Right. And butter as we Said earlier, like, you wanna maintain it in chunks so that you get the steam. So I feel like by using kind of get the best of both worlds, like, you get the tenderness that shortening contributes by being coated in flour and distributing throughout, plus the flake and the flavor of butter. I mean, this is not, like, revolutionary. There are plenty of pie bakers out there that recommend this, like, hybrid approach. But I just felt like in our butter episode, I would be lying to our listeners if I didn't come forth with this confession, slash opinion that I think the best pie crusts are made with a combination of shortening and butter. And that's what we have for this week's episode, our butter episode, our first episode of season two.
- [51:31]
A
Yeah. But before we go, Jessica, what are you baking this week?
- [51:34]
B
Oh, I forgot about that. This week I'm gonna try making. I haven't made them yet. Our apple pie bars, which is a new recipe to the site. It is a butter centric recipe. And so I just talked about pie crust. If you're listening to that and you're like, pie crust, so annoying. I would never. I've got a recipe for you because these have a lot of the elements of an apple pie, but much easier. It's got like a shortbread, like press and crust. And then the apples get cooked on the stovetop until they're like partially cooked through. All that good stuff that goes on top of the baked crust and then on top of it, a streusel topping. Sort of like a Dutch style apple pie. You know, apple pie with a lot less fuss, much more shareable, much lower stakes. You know, it's apple time here, so that's what I'm gonna try this week. What about you?
- [52:23]
A
I'm also entering the fall baking season. The fall baking vibes are all around me and so I'm just gonna go straight for the jugular. And I'm going to be making pumpkin bread.
- [52:34]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [52:35]
A
Sarah. John Pell's most Pumpkiny Pumpkin bread. That's not exactly the title of the recipe, but we'll put it in the show notes. But it's a great pumpkin bread. It starts with reducing a can of pumpkin to really concentrate those flavors. And crucially, it has chocolate chips in it. I'm not many big believers. Not many chips. I'm a big believer that most quick breads, including banana bread, is improved with chocolate chips.
- [52:59]
B
I agree. I also love that recipe because it calls for a full can of pumpkin. You know, a lot of them are like, ugh, third of a cup of pumpkin and then you're like, well, what do I do where the rest is? I feed it to my dog. Actually, I make dog pumpkin pops for her.
- [53:15]
A
Nice.
- [53:15]
B
Because that's the kind of loving pet mother I am. Well, I look forward to hearing about your pumpkin bread next week. When we are back here, I'll report back for another episode. Report back. We'll be back next week with an episode all about Chinatown baking, which I'm really excited about. And we have a special guest for that one.
- [53:34]
A
Yeah. Until then, remember to like and subscribe Things Bakers Know on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever. You listen to podcasts and leave us.
- [53:43]
B
A review which our producer will read and then tell me if it's good. But also share an episode with a friend because baking is more fun together.
- [53:54]
A
We'll see you back here next week. In the meantime, don't forget, Follow the recipe, people.
- [53:58]
B
Follow the recipe.
- [54:01]
A
Things Bakers Know is hosted and executive produced by me, David Tumorkin and me.
- [54:05]
B
Jessica Battalana Rossi and I. Costa Pullo.
- [54:07]
A
Is our senior producer, Chad Chanay is our producer and Marcus Bagala is our engineer. Original music by Megan and Marcus Bagala.
- [54:15]
B
This episode featured the legendary queen of Baking, Dorie Greenspan. You can learn more about her work and her upcoming book about cakes at her website, doriegreenspan.com Things Bakers Know is.
- [54:27]
A
A King Arthur Baking Company podcast. It.