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Things Bakers Know: The King Arthur Baking Podcast
Vanilla: Boring or the Best? with Claire Saffitz
00:43:33
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- [00:00]
A
You know, I don't want to co opt this whole episode to talk about Vanillin. Yeah.
- [00:03]
B
But I do think we should brainstorm some different names for it. But I'm going to say Felicia. Let's just call it Felicia.
- [00:11]
A
From King Arthur Baking Company, this is things bakers know. I'm Jessica Batalana, King Arthur staff editor.
- [00:17]
B
And I'm David Tamarkin, editorial director at King Arthur Baking.
- [00:20]
A
And today we're talking about vanilla. You know, it's kind of funny cause somewhere along the line, vanilla became a descriptor for like a really basic, super boring, kind of ordinary thing or person. But it's actually.
- [00:39]
B
Yeah. Not that you've ever. Not that you've ever used it that way.
- [00:42]
A
No, of course not. It's actually one of the most fascinating, delicious ingredients in the world. And I learned so much researching this that really is kind of mind blowing.
- [00:52]
B
Yeah. Today we are going to flip the script on vanilla, but. And after this episode, you're going to be using the term vanilla to describe interesting things like quantum physics. So vanilla, you know, like the state of the world is so vanilla. Oh, my gosh.
- [01:08]
A
I love it. Yeah. We're just reimagining. So before we get into talking about, like, the flavor of vanilla, I think we need to talk about what vanilla is.
- [01:19]
B
Yes. You're going to give me a lesson. I can feel it.
- [01:22]
A
Yeah, the hammock is really starting to evolve. So vanilla is the seed pod of a vanilla orchid. I mean, which, if you've ever seen a vanilla bean, you're like, yeah, that tracks. It looks like a withered seed pod. And these orchids are, you know, they're a fair weather plant. They only grow in, like, a really narrow band around the equator, so. Or in a greenhouse. Right. But really their, like, home base is, you know, right around the equator, including Madagascar, where half of the world's vanilla is produced. Which is kind of crazy because Madagascar, not a huge place. Tahiti, Mexico, Uganda. There's a very small amount of vanilla produced in Hawaii, in Ecuador. But it's a, you know, like wine or cheese, where the vanilla is grown, has an impact on sort of its flavor. So terroir. It has terroir. Yes, terroir. Exactly.
- [02:24]
B
What did I say? Terroir.
- [02:25]
A
Terroir.
- [02:26]
B
I just get so nervous.
- [02:28]
A
I know, but I can't speak. I keep shooting for the fences. You keep putting these foreign words in and trying your best.
- [02:34]
B
I can say them when I'm not on camera.
- [02:37]
A
Yeah, sure.
- [02:37]
B
Which, by the way, we're on YouTube and Spotify. Now watch us. Yeah, watch me mispronounce those words.
- [02:43]
A
I just am imagining you in your bathroom mirror every morning like terroir Biscott.
- [02:47]
B
I can do it. I can do it.
- [02:50]
A
But it's also, as we talked about, like very labor intensive to grow vanilla. Like this isn't just like a set it and forget it kind of plant. You need it, you know, you need the right weather. So it's a crop that's like very susceptible to, you know, a warming climate, which is a thing that's happening now.
- [03:10]
B
Vanilla orchids are hermaphroditic, which means that they have both male and female reproductive organs. However, for whatever reason, the vanilla flower is self sterile. So all of the vanilla orchids in the world have to be hand pollinated.
- [03:24]
A
I mean, this is.
- [03:24]
B
Somebody has to go in.
- [03:26]
A
This is crazy to think about. I don't, I don't know exactly how it's done. That would be interesting to like drill down more on how things are hand pollinated. But you know, you start to see like, okay, here we have this plant that only grows in a really narrow band in the world that will not, you know, propagate unless a human intervenes. And that discovery was actually made in the, you know, 1840s. So there was an enslaved, I was gonna say man, but really a child, a 12 year old Edmond Albius. And he worked on a plantation on the island of Reunion. But he learned that, you know, they brought these vines to Reunion island, which is in the Indian Ocean. And they were like, hey, nothing's happening. Like these vines aren't, you know, like they're not propagating. And so he realized that they all had to be hand pollinated. I doubt they gave him a lot of credit for that discovery, but that's the only way that vanilla's been, you know, able to flourish in places around the world. Because he discovered that they all have to be hand pollinated.
- [04:27]
B
Yeah, that's sort of a dark origin story.
- [04:30]
A
I mean, so many origin stories are dark origin stories to further complicate things. So like here it is, narrow band of the world. Now it has to be hand pollinated. You can only hand pollinate vanilla bean orchids for like a couple of hours is the window of pollination.
- [04:48]
B
That's the window for which the pollination will take.
- [04:51]
A
Yes. Yeah, so like, God help you if you're on your lunch break. Then like, forget it. It's just like the crop is. And then like adding to all of that, like the, you know, the weather things. So.
- [05:01]
B
So once the Flowers are pollinated, then the seeds begin to grow. The seeds. And that's what we really think of as the vanilla beans.
- [05:09]
A
Yeah. Those seed pods, and they sort of
- [05:10]
B
look like green beans, are about the size of a longish green bean. And they're not like the sticky pods we think of when we think of vanilla or like that we would buy at the grocery store from the wholesaler. Before we can use them, those pods have to be cured, if I'm not mistaken, then dried, and that's when they become the black, shriveled pods that we know and are obsessed with.
- [05:35]
A
Yeah, I mean, truly it is. So, you know, when you think about all that, you're like, well, no wonder. Like vanilla and vanilla extract. Vanilla beans, vanilla extract are really expensive. So right now, I mean, when I last checked, I don't know if it's like, how much it varies day to day, but a kilo. So 2.2 pounds of vanilla bean pods, Madagascar grown vanilla bean pods, is gonna run you about 300 bucks.
- [06:03]
B
Yeah, that, to be fair, that is a lot of vanilla beans.
- [06:06]
A
And, you know, I think a little vanilla does go a long way, like a little real vanilla, but not. Not as far as you'd think. And so, of course, like, now there is a robust secondary vanilla production, which is artificial vanilla. Because true vanilla is so expensive that, you know, given our, like, worldwide appetite for vanilla and the flavor of vanilla, like, we can't keep up. Like, there just simply is not enough true vanilla in the world to satisfy the world's desire.
- [06:38]
B
And I'm glad that we have a separate name for this artificial vanilla. I pronounce it Vanillin.
- [06:45]
A
Yeah, that's right.
- [06:46]
B
So. And it's what gives, you know, gives a vanilla ish flavor and aroma to things. So Vanillin is a compound that is found naturally in vanilla beans, but the artificial version, of course, is made in a lab, synthesized from guaiacol, an oil.
- [07:04]
A
There we go again. I'm just setting you up with these
- [07:06]
B
words made from petrochemicals.
- [07:08]
A
Ah, petrochemicals.
- [07:10]
B
Yeah. And of course, it's much, much less expensive.
- [07:13]
A
Yes, it's much, much less expensive. I mean, there's some irony here, right? Like, vanilla is, as I said at the top of the show, supposed to be like the most basic, boring flavor yet. Our collective desire for things flavored like vanilla is, and also, I should say, scented like vanilla is so great that it just like, vastly outpaces the amount of natural vanilla that we can produce. So, I mean, Vanillin to the rescue. Question mark. I don't know, but I mean, imitation vanilla is the standard for vanilla flavored things that are, you know, sort of mass market products. So like, you know, vanilla box mix, birthday cake, vanilla frosting, like anything that you buy, you know, not from a bakery but from a store that's a sweet thing, that has vanilla in it
- [08:05]
B
and that's relatively cheap, is relative, is
- [08:06]
A
going to have vanilla in it. And I, I do sort of have. And I'm not alone in this. Like, I have a sort of nostalgia for that flavor because I think it is the flavor of, you know, birthday cake. You know, when we talk about birthday cake flavored things.
- [08:22]
B
Yeah.
- [08:23]
A
What we're talking about is a Vanillin flavored thing. And I mean, and we, we've talked about this in previous episodes. Like these things are like engineered to be delicious. Yeah. Like they capture some of the essence and then, you know, and almost amp it up in this sort of artificial way. But it is kind of compelling.
- [08:40]
B
Yeah. I think Vanillin, you know, artificial vanilla, vanilla essence, whatever you want to call it, has had an interesting journey through, in the court of public opinion, if you will. And I think it's a generational thing. You know, I think, you know, previous generations to ours, probably like a lot of them, you know, didn't want anything to do with Vanillin because it was new and. Yeah. Fake.
- [09:05]
A
Yeah.
- [09:05]
B
But our generation and generations after us were really raised on this stuff. So it's very nostalgic for us. And so, you know, I think when Christina Tosi has really led the charge of reclaiming that flavor of Vandalin as a specific flavor, a nostalgic one, one that is where there's no, that there's no shame in chasing. If you want, you know, she's really, she's really, she's really gone sort of deep in the pocket. She's deep in the pockets of corporate vanilla. No, she, but she, she really makes a good point. Like want that classic birthday cake flavor that you are nostalgic for from your childhood. You need the Daniel. You do not want, you know, a vanilla bean. So it's, it's, it's an interesting thing and I, I, and I can appreciate, you know, the, the no shame vibe of it all. Like, there's no shame in it.
- [09:56]
A
I almost wish that it had a different name.
- [09:58]
B
Yeah.
- [09:59]
A
Because I think like Vanillin is to vanilla at, you know, they're different things. And I don't want to, you know, I don't want to co opt this whole episode to talk about Vanillin.
- [10:07]
B
But I do think we should brainstorm some different names for it. But I'm gonna say Felicia. Let's just call it Felicia.
- [10:15]
A
I think it's funny because the last time we brainstormed ideas was for white chocolate, and I don't think we were super successful.
- [10:22]
B
You know what? I think I got cut from the episode.
- [10:23]
A
Oh, did it?
- [10:24]
B
Yeah.
- [10:24]
A
We had some great names that I'll
- [10:26]
B
tell people that I came up with. It's probably gonna get cut from this one too.
- [10:29]
A
No matter how many times you say it.
- [10:31]
B
I think it was creamy butter chips or something like that. I don't know.
- [10:34]
A
I'll never believe from our bad name suggestions that we work with words for a living. They're like, how much work shopping?
- [10:43]
B
Anyway, we'll do that later. We'll do that later. We'll do that on our own time.
- [10:46]
A
We'll do that on our own time. Because we have, you know, we're sick of true vanilla, and there are true vanilla. We are not alone in thinking like that. Vanilla is a really dynamic and interesting flavor. And today we have one of the country's best bakers, Claire Saffitz, who is a staunch defender and vanilla enthusiast, here to talk to us. So I want to give time for that conversation and I want to give time for listener questions. So let's, let's hear your conversation with Claire.
- [11:16]
B
Yeah, Claire Sapphic probably does not need introduction to most of our audience, but in case you don't know her, she's the author of two cookbooks, Dessert Person and what's For Dessert. She has a robust YouTube operation. She's out there cooking on YouTube all the time. She, of course, was one of the famous Bon Appetit crew. And she got, you know, a lot of attention for her series there called Gourmet Makes, which was recreating a lot of mass produced snacks, a lot of them which used Vanillin.
- [11:44]
A
Yeah.
- [11:44]
B
And of course she was, you know, remaking them in a gourmet way. When I texted Claire and asked her to come on this episode specifically, I said, this is the right episode for you. Right. Like you want to. Would you want to talk about vanilla? And she was like, absolutely. Name a better flavor. Just try. Just name one. I was like, log. You don't need to. Don't yell at me. Or if you're going to yell at me, yell at me on the podcast. Let's record it.
- [12:07]
A
I hope she did.
- [12:08]
B
So let's listen. Claire Saffitz, welcome to Things Bakers Know. It's been such a Long time that I've wanted you to be on this podcast, my friend. You are one of the world's biggest vanilla fans. When I texted you and asked what you thought about vanilla, you said, name a better flavor. Just name one. Which was very aggressive, I thought, but I could not name one.
- [12:34]
A
Uh huh.
- [12:35]
C
Okay. Well, thank you for having me on. I am very excited to be here and I am honored to be on the vanilla episode because it is truly one of the great flavors and so unique and special. And I don't know how the word vanilla got associated with something like bland and boring, because it is neither bland nor boring. So I'm very excited to talk about it.
- [12:56]
B
But do you feel like, do you ever taste things that are vanilla? Like the cake or whatever, you taste a vanilla cupcake, say, and you think to yourself, actually this is bland and boring. This does not have enough vanilla flavor. Do you think people are using enough vanilla in their baked goods?
- [13:11]
C
I think sometimes the word vanilla is like the default. It's like the default flavor. It's sort of like it doesn't have a flavor so it gets labeled vanilla maybe because it has a couple of teaspoons of vanilla extract in it. But I do think if you're going to market it as vanilla, it should have, have. It should have a distinct vanilla flavor and. Or like maybe you see specks of vanilla bean in it because I, I kind of want to see the proof a little bit. Like if it's a cake, it doesn't just call it a butter cake. If it doesn't have a flavor, in a sense, like it doesn't. Vanilla should not just be the, the label that it gets to make it sound like it has something in it. So yeah, I, if it's being sold to me as a vanilla something, I want to see it and I want to smell it and I want to taste it for sure.
- [13:52]
B
Can you describe what vanilla tastes like? And I think this is a tricky question, but I'm going to throw it to you anyway. Can you describe it? Like how, how would you describe it to somebody who has never had it?
- [14:04]
C
I think it's like you can't define the word with the word. Like, I don't know, it is to me sort of indescribable. If you can't, if you don't, if you haven't had. Is very aromatic, even a little bit spicy. But I think it's sort of hard to describe what, because it's so singular, it's like it doesn't have a lot in common with a lot of other types of flavors. But I'm just saying, like, I'm just dancing around the idea of what it actually tastes like, which is to say that it just tastes like vanilla. I think it's so hard to describe without saying that it tastes like vanilla.
- [14:41]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think you did a great job, but I also love that you called out the spiciness and that you called out that it can be aggressive. Because there have been moments, especially when I bake with vanilla beans, that I feel like, oh, I've overdone it. Like, it can get very intense and it's a strong flavor. It's the opposite of what. Of what the reputation is. Right. It can be very strong and very. Not vanilla. Very. I think it could be sort of like a bully of a flavor if you overdo it. What do you think?
- [15:06]
C
Yes, And I think there's also so much variation in quality of vanilla. So one vanilla product compared to another might take. Tastes very, very different, actually. So that's another reason why I think it's difficult to kind of pin it down in a way. Like, it can be really spicy. It can be very floral. I think vanilla is one of those things where there's so many flavor compounds going on, you know, from one vanilla to another, or from paste to extract, or from time of year, like, there's probably so many variations from, you know, Madagascar vanilla to Tahitian vanilla, that kind of thing. But when you have a high quality vanilla product, like you're using, like, a nice, soft, juicy, whole vanilla bean, it can be very overpowering. I also think it has that very perfume quality, and it's not just because it is used, like, literally in perfume and candles and other scents. So it is, like I said before, just it is that very singular aroma and flavor. It has to be used very carefully and thoughtfully because it can overpower or it can totally disappear. So you have to be sort of conscious of the product that you're using and how strong is it and that kind of thing. It's not just like any vanilla extract or any paste or vanilla bean.
- [16:17]
B
Yeah, 100%. And, you know, this brings me to one of my questions for you, which was, what is your preferred vehicle for vanilla? Is it extract? Is it paste? Is it bean? But also, can you talk a little bit about whether vanilla is the kind of thing where you get what you pay for? I mean, because you're talking about, like, all these flavor compounds, how careful do you have to be about the quality of this?
- [16:40]
A
Yes.
- [16:41]
C
So my preferred vehicle, these days is paste. I love, I love vanilla paste. I think you get. It's just like this perfect kind of middle ground where you get. It's more. It's stronger and more pungent and effective than extract. But you get the ease of extract, which is just like. And I keep it in a squeeze bottle. I have to say I tend to be pretty extravagant with my vanilla use. And so. And part of that is because I keep it in squeeze bottle. It's so easy. Just like add a couple little shots of it to whatever it is I'm making. So I love it. I think like scraping a vanilla bean. Vanilla beans are, are. It's a little risky for a vanilla bean because they dry out so fast. So. And this kind of segues into your question about price. I like to buy vanilla beans in bulk, but it's risky because if they dry out, then you're kind of at a loss. So I just feel like keeping paste is like, you get a lot of the benefit of the bean because you have the seeds in there. You get the ease of extract. You get a flavor that somewhere in the middle in terms of its like, potency. So as far as price, I generally think you get what you pay for. But I do think there's crazy price gouging that happens actually with vanilla. So I would just, I would just shop around and like compare prices. I think that there is stuff at the grocery store that's 20 bucks, that's really, really expensive, and you can get a better deal elsewhere. And I would definitely consider buying in bulk because you'll get a much better deal and like an extract if it's stored well. Like, you know, there's nothing's gonna happen to it. So also, I feel like my mom's favorite place to buy vanilla extract is T.J. maxx. They have it on the shelves.
- [18:22]
A
I don't know if it's good or
- [18:23]
C
not, but I think you can get a deal.
- [18:26]
B
I think TJ Maxx and Home Goods is the premier store for vanilla. I mean, I think you really can get good vanilla there. That's why I've bought vanilla for so many years when I lived in Chicago that I would just stock up on vanilla there. So sometimes you're using paste, sometimes you're using your homemade extract, sometimes you're using beans. What types of recipes do you feel allow vanilla to shine the best?
- [18:51]
C
For me, it's always like the dairy heavy, the simple dairy heavy recipes, which almost always means custard. So a vanilla ice cream, a flan, a panna cotta, to me, dairy is the blank canvas. You know, there's, there's certain, like obviously we know that the flavors in vanilla are soluble in alcohol, but I just feel like they also really come through in dairy. And maybe that's partly cause there's some fat soluble flavor compounds or just by heating it, you know, it's infusing the dairy. But that like the way that vanilla bean and seeds infuse the flavor of dairy, like milk or cream is so special and so delicious. And also you're really seeing the seeds when you're working with a custard of some kind. So that's where I really use it. I feel like in a cake recipe where you're adding starch, I would just go extract because it's like you have other things that are kind of competing. But the canvas of just a creamy delicious recipe is so perfect for vanilla. And that's where I really want it. And that's where I think you really experience the most intense and kind of like clearly articulated flavor from vanilla.
- [20:12]
B
I love that you are talking about the flavor, but also the visuals too, because that is such a big part of it. I understand you're obsessed with vanilla. You can't get away from it. You dream about vanilla. You named your child Vanilla. Like I get it, but vanilla also. You're also pairing with vanilla a lot of ways, right? So what is, what do you think are the best pairings with vanilla?
- [20:34]
C
Great question. I think you cannot make a chocolate chip cookie without a ton of vanilla. So somewhere along the way in my baking journey, and I don't remember when or where it came from, I learned the idea that to get butterscotch flavor of any kind, you have to combine it's the combination of butter and sugar and vanilla. And it's such an essential like trifecta, these three things combined. So for a chocolate chip cookie or a blondie, any kind of baked good where you want a butterscotchiness, whether that's from caramel or toffee or, you know, any combination of these flavors like you have to have a lot of vanilla is so essential. So as to and brown butterfly, brown butter and vanilla together are just the most magical combination. Vanilla and citrus zest also is such creates this kind of hybrid like floral flavor enhancer that is so magical. Like orange zest and vanilla together in like a sweet bun or in a cake is it is in some ways like greater than the sum of its parts. You could do orange zest, lemon zest and vanilla together. And if you have vanilla is, you know, if you have seeds from a bean and you have zest and you massage it into sugar, the perfume that it creates is so, so amazing and powerful. So those are the times where I think vanilla is so enhancing and it does not get lost. Like all of those things together kind of create a new, even more amazing flavor. And then there's other combinations where I think it can be overpowered or it just gets lost and kind of obscured. And so then I'm going to maybe throw in like a little bit of maybe extract just there in the background. I think sometimes chocolate and vanilla, like chocolate is a really strong flavor. So I think it's not, of course it's delicious, but it just doesn't work with chocolate in the same way that it works with these other kinds of ingredients. So yeah, citrus and anything like butterscotchy, caramelly, definitely.
- [22:40]
B
Claire Savage, thank you so much for being on Things Bakers know. It was a pleasure to have you here. This will not be the only time we asked you to be on the show, so I hope you'll come again.
- [22:49]
C
Thank you for having me on.
- [22:52]
A
This episode is brought to you by our recipe of the year, Flaky puff crust pizza. That may sound familiar to you, that's because we did a whole episode on this special recipe back in January. But the pizza is so good, we think you should be baking it all year long. It's like if a pizza and a croissant had a baby, you would have.
- [23:12]
B
You're just showing off with your pronunciations now.
- [23:15]
A
Bonjour.
- [23:15]
B
High,
- [23:17]
A
so flaky, so crispy, so delicious. And also critically, it can be made in under two hours.
- [23:24]
B
It's a really fun bake too. Yeah, you get to do lamination, but it's not hard lamination and the, you know, it just turns out each time
- [23:32]
A
turns out and feeds a crowd, which I think is really nice. You can find the recipe by searching flaky puff crust pizza on our website. We also have a video showing you how to make flaky puff crust pizza. Say that 10 times fast on our YouTube channel. Foreign.
- [23:52]
C
I'm Shilpa Uskokovic.
- [23:53]
A
And I'm Jessi Sepczyk.
- [23:55]
C
And we're the hosts of the Bon Appetit Bake Club podcast.
- [23:58]
A
Bake Club is Bon Appetit's community of confident, curious bakers.
- [24:01]
C
Jesse and I love to bake. Some might even call us obsessive. And we love to talk about all the hows and whys and what didn't
- [24:08]
A
works that come with it every Month, we publish a recipe on bon appetit.com that introduces a baking concept we think you should know.
- [24:15]
C
Then you'll bake. Send us any questions you have, and
- [24:18]
A
we'll get together here on the podcast to talk about the recipe.
- [24:22]
C
So consider this your official invitation. Come join the Ba Bake Club, new
- [24:26]
A
episodes on the first Tuesday of every month, wherever you get your podcasts.
- [24:30]
C
Happy baking.
- [24:36]
B
It's time for our next segment, Ask the Bakers. For Ask the Bakers. We want to hear from you. If you have a burning question for us, head to kingarthurbaking.com podcast to record a question, and we may end up using it on the show. That's kingarthurbaking.com podcast.
- [24:52]
A
And of course, if you have a baking question right now that simply cannot wait, you can always reach out to our Baker's hotline via phone, email, or online chat. There's an actual real human with baking experience on the other end. It's wild. You can go to kingarthurbaking.com Bakers Hotline. That's kingarthurbaking.com bakers hotline. Or call us 855-371-2253. That's 2253. As in bake. We're here for you.
- [25:23]
B
Let's go to our first question.
- [25:25]
D
I've heard that vanilla paste is all the rage. What makes it supposedly better than vanilla extract? And how do I substitute it into recipes?
- [25:35]
B
Oh, I love the skepticism here. All the red. Oh, no. I was like, what makes it supposedly better? The shade.
- [25:42]
A
I know.
- [25:43]
B
I appreciate this.
- [25:46]
A
Well, you know, I think better, right? Like, it's not necessarily better. It's just different.
- [25:52]
B
It's just different.
- [25:52]
A
That's what I say to my kids.
- [25:55]
B
You know, I think that, you know, and actually, when we were talking about this yesterday, one of my first reactions was, well, it's a lot of the great things about vanilla extract, but at a cheaper price point, actually. Not true.
- [26:08]
A
Yeah. Then you crunch some numbers and you're
- [26:10]
B
like ounce for ounce, pretty much the same.
- [26:13]
A
Pretty much the same.
- [26:13]
B
Yeah.
- [26:14]
A
So, you know, and I know Claire talked about this a little bit, but of course, the vanilla bean paste, I mean, paste is a little bit of a misnomer because when I think of a paste, I think of something with, like, the texture of peanut butter. Yeah.
- [26:27]
B
Like something you can bread.
- [26:28]
A
And this is more like a. It's fluid. It's got some viscosity. It's like a syrup almost. And I think that's a fair comparison because it also has Sugar.
- [26:38]
B
Added sugar in it. I think those are one of the main things to know about vanilla paste. It's sweetened. It's not so sweetened that, like, I mean, you're using it in such small quantities, it's not going to drop off your recipe, but it is a little sweetened. If you're putting it in whipped cream, it's going to sweeten your whipped cream, which is nice. I like that. But it's not going to give you. If you want, for whatever reason, an unsweetened vanilla whipped cream, then you would use vanilla extract, not vanilla paste.
- [27:04]
A
Right, exactly.
- [27:04]
B
Then you would lose out on one of the other key properties of vanilla paste, which is your favorite property of vanilla paste, I think.
- [27:10]
A
Yeah. Well, that it has the seeds in it. Yeah, yeah. It's like, you know, so if you want. If you're making something that is white in color and you want to see those vanilla bean flecks in there, which I think make like it's sort of premium, you know, like.
- [27:23]
B
You want to see it first, baby.
- [27:24]
A
Yeah, Totally.
- [27:25]
B
Feed those eyes.
- [27:26]
A
So I use vanilla bean paste. If I'm making, you know, whipped cream, vanilla frosting, you know, creme brulee.
- [27:34]
B
A white cake.
- [27:35]
A
A white cake.
- [27:36]
B
Yeah.
- [27:36]
A
Because you're going to taste it, you're going to see it. If I'm making, you know, anything else, truly, I'll use vanilla extract. And you can substitute them one for one. So if your recipe calls for a teaspoon of, you know, vanilla extract, you can use a teaspoon of vanilla bean paste. And, you know, we always, like, you'll see, Oliver. King Arthur, we measure vanilla, they say, with. With our hearts. You know, we don't usually. We just sort of dump it in.
- [28:04]
B
Shout out to Italy on Instagram. I think she coined that phrase.
- [28:07]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [28:08]
B
We measure vanilla with our hearts. That's really taken.
- [28:10]
A
I mean, that's really a. It's a luxury stance.
- [28:13]
B
Yeah.
- [28:13]
A
Because we have an endless supply of vanilla at home. I'm like, I don't measure with my heart. I measure with the measure.
- [28:18]
B
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
- [28:20]
A
Yeah. The nice thing, too, is, like, vanilla extract, vanilla bean paste, they don't expire. I mean, maybe. I don't think so. I don't think they ever expire. And, you know, I'm always like. I go to visit my father, and one of our family jokes is that I always am, like, finding things in my dad's pantry that are, like, so old.
- [28:39]
B
Yes. You've had some really interesting stories, some really wild stuff.
- [28:43]
A
And recently, he was like, I've had this vanilla extract since your mother died. My mother died, you know, like eight years ago. And he was like, is it still good? I was like, actually, that's the one thing I can say. Yes. Like, everything else in here should be thrown out, but the vanilla bean paste is fine. Let's go to our next question.
- [29:02]
D
Hey, King Arthur Baking, this is Jessica in Pikesville, Maryland, and I've got a question for you. I am an avid home baker, and I have collected over the years many different extracts and flavorings. Much more beyond simple vanilla extract, which definitely has its time and place in baking. So my question is, how do I substitute a different flavoring, a different extract in a recipe in place of vanilla? Is it a one to one ratio or do I have to scale back, let's say an almond extract? The amount of an almond extract in comparison to the amount of a vanilla extract. How do I replace vanilla extract or some vanilla extract with a different extract, a different flavoring in my baking, to experiment, to play around, to make things a little different. I'm turning to you for this answer. I know you'll have a good one. I can't wait to hear it. Thanks so much.
- [30:01]
A
Did you see my eyes get wide when she was like, can I substitute them one for one? I was like, jessica, don't do it.
- [30:07]
B
I did see your eyes get wide, and I panicked. You see me shaking my head.
- [30:10]
A
Yeah, we were. Yeah. I mean,
- [30:13]
B
extracts are. They're interesting. I actually have a note I want to give at the end of our answer about a specific extract. But why were your eyes getting wide?
- [30:23]
A
Well, first of all, I should say there are endless amounts of extracts out there now. Like, if you go to the grocery store there, I mean, the ones that you might be more familiar with, almond extract, peppermint extract, lemon extract. And then we start to get into sort of what I would consider to be more rogue territory. You know, orange extract, root beer extract. Like, there are some.
- [30:46]
B
Yeah.
- [30:46]
A
You know, coconut extract extract. Just, you know, that are going to have a more specific use case.
- [30:52]
B
Yeah.
- [30:53]
A
And they vary greatly in strength. Very, like, very different. I can't understate. I'm just. I'm at a loss for words, because
- [31:05]
B
I'm sorry to say that most extracts that are not vanilla are stronger, extremely strong than vanilla extract. So you would not do one to one, because if you put it. If you measure with your heart with almond extract or coconut extract.
- [31:21]
A
Yeah. You're gonna have something inedible.
- [31:23]
B
You're gonna have something that tastes so strong. Of that. I mean, these extracts are really powerful.
- [31:27]
A
Yeah. I mean, almond extract in particular. It's like a little bit of almond extract. Delicious.
- [31:32]
B
A lot.
- [31:32]
A
Am I being poisoned?
- [31:34]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [31:34]
A
You know, like, it's got such a strong bitter presence. So I would say, you know, if you want to, you know, if you want to mess around.
- [31:46]
B
I think, I think the use case here is if you. What if there's a vanilla cake and you want to turn it into a coconut flavored cake?
- [31:52]
A
Sure.
- [31:53]
B
So your recommendation, let's say it calls for one teaspoon of vanilla. Your recommendation for our.
- [31:58]
A
I mean, I. Coconut. Yeah. I would start with like a quarter of that amount. I mean, you can always go up, you can never go down.
- [32:03]
B
Yeah.
- [32:04]
A
And I think coconut, like, you know, because they're not. Again, they're not all created equal. I would say coconut is not as powerful as like a lemon one or an almond one. Like, I'm just getting really nervous about somebody putting in like a tablespoon of almond extract into something because it will be. It'll be inedible.
- [32:20]
B
How can they test this? So we cannot recommend tasting raw batter. So you can either, like, make the cake and just experiment. And the next time you bump it up or down, if you like, I guess you could maybe stir some extract into some whipped cream or something to taste the. How powerful it is. But I don't.
- [32:41]
A
Yeah, I mean, you know, we can't. We can't in good conscience say to taste the batter.
- [32:45]
B
No, we can't.
- [32:45]
A
We can't. That's all we can say.
- [32:47]
B
And we won't.
- [32:48]
A
We won't.
- [32:50]
B
And we should. And that's where. Yes, that's where we'll leave. That's a good place to leave it.
- [32:53]
A
I also think, like, where you're using the extract, like, you know, if you're using it in a battery, you know, versus a frosting or something like, you know, like, you have more ingredients to dilute it. So frosting is a great place to
- [33:06]
B
do a little batch, take a little batch out. And you have to do some math, you know, but yeah, and I think,
- [33:12]
A
you know, you've got to use your noodle about this a little bit. Like, there are a lot of things. I'm like, well, you can't just, like, I wouldn't just like dump a lemon extract into a chocolate cake. Like, that's not gonna be.
- [33:21]
B
No. Oh, my God.
- [33:22]
A
Delicious. I mean, and I don't think that Jessica's suggesting that, you know, but you want to think about, like, flavor pairings. Like Maybe an orange extract, maybe a peppermint one. But, you know, it's going to change the. You know, it's going to change the flavor of your cake.
- [33:36]
B
So it's a big, wide world out there.
- [33:39]
A
It is. Yeah, it is. And I do think, yeah, a little experimentation, but just be, you know, just be careful about that almond extract.
- [33:48]
B
Just really worry.
- [33:49]
A
Yeah, I'm really worried. Jessica, next question.
- [33:52]
B
Hey, vanilla is pretty expensive. Are there some times I can get away with not using it? This is a great question and a really fair question in this economy. Like, I mean, come on. I mean, we want to make baking as accessible as possible. And we did talk about this with Claire. I was really interested to hear her answer on this, because as someone who loves vanilla as much as she does, where does she use it? Does she use it in everything? Because, you know, so many chocolate cakes have you adding vanilla to the mix and is it necessary? That's kind of an interesting question. So let's call out Claire. No, let's bring her back.
- [34:26]
E
I generally, even though I am someone who is adding vanilla to, like, a lot of my baked goods, I don't add it to every single one. I don't think it's an afterthought in that way that it's like, oh, just the thing you add a couple of splashes of. I think vanilla is best when actually it is its own flavor and that it is. It's not just there for the sake of being there, because we think that we have to add it to baked goods. So that's why it's great to have a couple different kinds. If you have an extract, you have maybe some paste or you have some whole beans because they're used really differently. That being said, I just love it so much. Like, I do add. I do add it a lot to a lot of what I make, but it's not an afterthought. And that might be one of the reasons why it can be sometimes criticized. It's like, oh, you just. If you're adding it thoughtlessly to everything and you're not really tasting it, I can see why people would think that it's not the amazing flavor that it is. The point of this being that vanilla can really shine on its own. And I encourage people, if they want to, if they love to bake and. Or, you know, or do pastry or make ice cream or whatever it is, to really invest in, like, one bean, which is an investment. Like, weirdly, at the grocery store, for some reason, one bean costs $20. And then you can get a pack of 25 beans for 50, you know, if you order them online or something, you know, from a specialty site. So I would say play around with it and really use it in a way that you're going to experience the full flavor and not just as a thing that, you know, you keep a little jar of it and add it to, you know, a cake that you're making because it's so special on its own.
- [36:01]
B
So I agree with Claire. I think that, you know, certainly if you have a chocolate cake that you love and that, you know, you like how it tastes, I'm not telling you, you have to stop putting vanilla in it. You know, it's not going to do harm. But if you have something that's really a really strong flavor, you can probably leave the vanilla out and maybe not miss it.
- [36:22]
A
Yeah, yeah. So use it in a place, you know, if you have to choose where it's really going to shine.
- [36:26]
B
Yeah, where it's really going to shine.
- [36:27]
A
That makes sense.
- [36:28]
B
Well, that's the end of our question. So now we get to go into our favorite segment, right? Every episode we like to check in with Jessica to see what wildly surprising and full throated opinions are in her head. She's already given a few this episode, but let's check in to see what her official just opinion is about vanilla.
- [36:45]
A
Well, this is sort of a. I mean, I'm taking a different spin because, you know, people often, I think there is, you know, there's a lot of talk about quiet luxury. Right. Like, I think about that a lot as I'm getting older, like fewer better things. Which I think is a good, you know, it's a good guideline, like we don't need more stuff. We just. So one of the things that I really like to do anytime I'm like house, you know, we're heading into like summer travel season. You know, when you're hosted and you want to bring something and you're like,
- [37:22]
E
what do I do?
- [37:22]
A
I bring wine.
- [37:23]
B
Is that something I should be doing? Okay, thank you.
- [37:26]
A
That's a good tip. Yeah, maybe I'll do like a sideline, manners. When I run out of opinion, then I'll move to manners, which I have a lot of opinions about, actually.
- [37:36]
B
Just etiquette.
- [37:37]
A
Just etiquette.
- [37:39]
B
Here we go.
- [37:39]
A
All right, Season four. It could be a spin off show. I don't know.
- [37:43]
B
Spin off like this.
- [37:43]
A
I like to bring our 16 ounce bottles of vanilla.
- [37:48]
B
Is that this one?
- [37:49]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah, that's that one. Which is a very generous amount of Vanilla. And it's the kind of thing that even if somebody is a casual baker, because as I was saying, like, it never, you know, it never goes bad. So if they're an avid baker, they're going to be stoked.
- [38:03]
B
Yeah.
- [38:04]
A
If they're an occasional baker, they'll use it for like, they'll be thinking about you for the next 10 years. And it's the kind of thing, like getting it in that big bottle, like you're not gonna do that for yourself. Cause it's a little splurgy. I think that's like an $80 item, you know, but like cheaper than like one night in a crummy hotel. You know, like they're washing the towels, they're like preparing the meals. Like, it feels like a really thoughtful, you know, and generous gift. Sort of a luxury and quiet luxury.
- [38:32]
B
Yeah, I think that's a great gift. And I do buy this for myself, of course. You know, full disclosure, I have the King Arthur discount that this year, but it is cheaper ounce for ounce. Of course, you do have to, you know, have the money on hand to buy it. It's fun. Yeah, it's fun to use. It's fun to pour vanilla from this big bottle. I've never splurged. We have a size bigger than this.
- [38:53]
A
Do we?
- [38:53]
B
Yes, we have like a, it's like a two liter or something.
- [38:56]
A
Wow. Chug jug of vanilla extract.
- [38:58]
B
It's. It's just fun and it lasts a really, really long time.
- [39:04]
A
Yeah.
- [39:04]
B
And so if you're measuring vanilla with your heart, as we were talking about before, not as long as. Not as long as you think. So maybe break out the teaspoons.
- [39:11]
A
So maybe my just opinion is one, like never show up empty handed. Like, I don't care what you like, you know, do not. It doesn't, it doesn't, you know, doesn't matter what you bring. But you should bring something. But it does matter. And you should bring something that is thoughtful. And a large bottle of vanilla extract is going to surprise and delight anyone you give it to. I think, well, this is a really
- [39:35]
B
nice, kind, sort of tender Jess opinion. So I'd like to give a spin on it to make it a little more punchy. I think your Jess opinion is screw bottles of wine as a host gift. Bring a bottle of vanilla. You hate wine. Right now. I'm putting words in your mouth. Tell me, Jessica, what are you baking this week?
- [39:55]
A
I thought it was. I mean, we don't always line up our bakes with the theme, you know, but this week I. You know, I did because I've been thinking an awful lot about vanilla, and I recently came into a cache of vanilla bean. Speaking of gifts, somebody gave me, like, a bundle of 20 vanilla beans, which is a really nice gift. And I am going to make our simple stovetop vanilla pudding. I love pudding.
- [40:23]
B
Yeah.
- [40:24]
A
So much. And this is a really nice recipe it uses.
- [40:26]
B
Do you like it warm or cold?
- [40:28]
A
Oh, I like it cold. Very cold.
- [40:30]
B
Okay.
- [40:31]
A
And I don't mind the skin if it gets a skin. But this is a recipe that's really simple, comes together all on the stovetop, and is made with sweetened condensed milk, which gives it, like a very silky, nice texture. So. And it's like that is the place to use, like, your vanilla bean paste to really show off. Like, you'll not only be able to see it, but, like, you really will be able to taste it there.
- [40:54]
B
Yeah. Is that a Sarah Jumpal recipe?
- [40:55]
A
It is a Sarah Jumpel recipe.
- [40:57]
B
Can't lose.
- [40:57]
A
No, can't lose.
- [40:59]
B
I also am going with vanilla this week because all this talk about vanilla and for me, I don't eat a lot of cupcakes. I love cupcakes, but I don't have occasion for cupcakes. Really. I don't have kids, you know.
- [41:09]
A
Yeah. I mean, you don't need to have kids.
- [41:10]
B
I don't like kids in my apartment. But ultra vanilla cupcakes with easy vanilla frosting. Again, another recipe where vanilla's really gonna shine. I would definitely use vanilla paste here
- [41:21]
A
or vanilla bean in the cake and in the frosting.
- [41:24]
B
In both.
- [41:25]
A
Yeah. And you know, we have. Speaking of the kids that you don't have, there is a one bowl vanilla cupcake recipe in that sweet and salty kids cookbook.
- [41:34]
B
Yeah.
- [41:35]
A
Which is easy enough for a kid to make. And we have a bunch of mix and match frostings too. So there's like, you can, you know, confetti ify the cupcakes or the frosting. And actually that's a place where, like, you can also mess around with your extracts. You know, like, you can make a vanilla base and then flavor the frosting. So that's a fun recipe. If you're looking for another. Another cupcake Avenue.
- [41:59]
B
You know what? My mom does that. It's very surprising to me. I go to her house.
- [42:03]
A
I love your mom, by the way.
- [42:04]
B
Open the. You're.
- [42:05]
A
I mean, is she listening? I hope she listens. She's. Or maybe she doesn't.
- [42:09]
B
I don't.
- [42:10]
A
She's not a fan of the podcast.
- [42:11]
B
I think she gets to it eventually.
- [42:12]
A
Yeah. Okay, well, shout out to moms.
- [42:15]
B
I open her freezer and there were frozen cupcakes in there. Like, iced cupcakes. I didn't know you could freeze those.
- [42:25]
A
Where do they come from?
- [42:26]
B
Does she make like. If she, like, gets them at a bakery and she does it and she wraps it in, throws in the freezer. I said, I've never seen that before. I don't know if it's the best thing you can do, but you know what? I've definitely thawed one and eaten it.
- [42:39]
A
It doesn't sound bad. We know frosting freezes well. We know cake freezes well.
- [42:43]
B
Yeah.
- [42:44]
A
Your mom's just, like, getting a shortcut, too. Yeah, I think it's a good idea anyway. You know, I don't know. We got so sweet here. I know.
- [42:53]
B
It's weird.
- [42:53]
A
We won't do it again.
- [42:54]
B
I promise. We will get back to being our acerbic song. Yeah.
- [42:59]
A
Thank you for tuning in and joining us here on Things Bakers Know.
- [43:01]
B
Remember to like and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Amazon, Spotify, or wherever you listen.
- [43:07]
A
And leave us a review while you're there or share the this episode with a friend.
- [43:11]
B
And in the meantime, don't forget, follow the recipe. Things Bakers Know is hosted and executive produced by me, David Tumarkin and me,
- [43:19]
A
Jessica Battalano Rossi Anastapoulo is our senior
- [43:22]
B
producer, Chad Chanay is our producer, and Marcus Bagala is our engineer. Original music by Megan and Marcus Bagala.
- [43:29]
A
Thanks again to Claire Safetz for appearing on today's episode. You can find more about Claire and her work@dessert person.com Things Bakers Know is
- [43:38]
B
a King Arthur Baking Company podcast.