We're in Our Croissant Era, with the Baking School's Elisabeth Berthasavage

Summary

---

Things Bakers Know: The King Arthur Baking Podcast

Episode: We're in Our Croissant Era, with the Baking School's Elisabeth Berthasavage
Date: May 4, 2026
Host(s): David Tamarkin, Jessica Battilana
Special Guest: Elisabeth Berthasavage (King Arthur Baking School)

---

Episode Overview

This episode of Things Bakers Know is a deep-dive into the world of croissants: history, evolution, home baking tips, tools, and trends. Hosts David and Jessica chat through the intricacies of laminated dough, the cultural journey of croissants, and welcome baking instructor Elisabeth Berthasavage for expert insight on making croissants at home. Listener questions tackle flour, proofing, gear, and butter, while the hosts deliver candid “Jess Opinions” on croissant trends.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

What Makes the Perfect Croissant? [00:49–08:25]

• Crisp, Shattering Texture: Jessica shares her “non-negotiable” for croissants: “The best croissants are the ones that you can’t eat without, like, destroying your outfit...where they're shatteringly crisp, lots of flaky shards of pastry, and you get them all over your shirt, all over your pants.” — (Jessica, [01:08])
• Laminated Dough Demystified: David explains lamination (“You layer that with pure fat — with butter — and you roll it out. You do a series of folds, and you have a dough that's layered with butter, and it bakes up into a very crispy thing because the butter melts, lets off steam, and the steam creates flakes.” — [01:41])
• Yeasted vs. Sourdough Croissants: Most croissants are yeasted for airiness; some sourdoughs exist, but yeasted is the standard. (Jessica & David, [02:30–02:55])
• Changing Tastes: Croissants have evolved in the public imagination. “What you may be thinking of as the ideal croissant may not have been the ideal croissant 20 years ago.” — (David, [03:07])
• Butter is Non-Negotiable: Only pure butter delivers the right taste. “The best croissants have always been made with pure butter.” — (Jessica, [06:03])

Croissant Culture: Shape and Lore [06:36–07:57]

• French Croissant Custom: “In France, all-butter croissants are straight, whereas croissants with another fat are curved. It’s a way to identify authenticity.” — (Jessica, [06:39])

Innovation & Scarcity Bakes [07:57–12:46]

• The “Cronut” Effect: Croissants as a base for wild innovation — from the famous cronut to batched croissant “loafs” and Supreme shapes, bakers have stretched the form.
• Scarcity Bake & Croissant Theory: “The croissant is often used as what I call a scarcity bake…to drive demand, to build hype, to get people in line and sort of increase perceived value.” — (Jessica, [10:21])
• Flavors & Fillings: “Now I feel like the fillings are…no longer just pain au chocolat, ham and cheese...it’s like yuzu chamomile...there’s just so much innovation happening both in form and flavor.” — (Jessica, [11:24])
• The Gimmicky Risk: “I’m always a little skeptical when I see a croissant that’s rainbow-colored — like, this looks like a gimmick to me.” — (David, [11:59])

Croissants at Home: Challenges & Rewards [12:47–13:43]

• Projects for the Passionate: Both hosts agree croissants at home are a considerable project, but incredibly rewarding for those who love a baking challenge.

---

Croissants with Elisabeth Berthasavage (Baking School Instructor)

[13:50–24:59]

Why Make Croissants at Home?

• Cost and Experience: “The average cost of a croissant from a nice bakery is anywhere from four to eight dollars…. If you want this delicious pastry a couple of times a week—there you go, now you can’t afford your coffee.” — (Elisabeth, [14:08])
• Intrinsic Joy: Many students are driven by the fun, challenge, or desire for mastery, not just the result. (David & Elisabeth, [14:51–15:51])

Home vs. Professional Croissant Baking

• The Proofing Advantage: “The one thing that makes it easier in a commercial setting is the proof box. You have complete, almost complete control over what’s happening, the timing, temperature, humidity.” — (Elisabeth, [16:45])
• Home Proofing Hack:
  • Use the oven with the light on as a makeshift proof box.
  • Add a mug of hot water for humidity.
  • “Every 30 minutes...I’ll swap that [mug] out every 30 minutes.” — (Elisabeth, [17:43])
• Proofing Croissants vs. Bread:
  • “They should feel pillowy, marshmallowy. …Give that sheet pan a little shake, and it will just wobble back and forth.” — (Elisabeth, [19:34])

Proofing Tips & Signs

• Look for:

  • Clearly visible layers (you can peel them back a bit with your finger)
  • Marshmallowy, pillowy feel
  • Wobble/jiggle on the tray ([20:51–21:03])

• Beware of Over/Underproofing:

  • “A longer proof...can actually get that butter too soft, especially when you’re not in an environment that’s controlled with temperature. …If you get the butter too soft…that butter has a tendency to leak.…The texture…is going to be somewhat denser, somewhat chewier, a very lackluster oven spring.” — (Elisabeth, [22:10–23:22])

Elisabeth’s Number One Home-Baking Advice

• “Trust the process because it is a process. And don’t be afraid to make mistakes—you got to learn from those mistakes. …Give yourself a pat on the back just for trying.” — (Elisabeth, [24:16])

---

Listener Q&A: Ask the Bakers [28:08–37:02]

1. Flour for Croissants: French T45/T55 and “Ash Content”

(Listener Q, [28:08])

• Ash Content Defined: The mineral content left after burning flour; more refined flour = lower ash.
• “White flour, for example, is like 0.55% ash content. And in France, that would be called a T55 flour.” — (Jessica, [29:30])
• So What to Use?
  • King Arthur All-Purpose flour = T55, best for croissants.
  • “For a home baker…I don’t think [ash content] is hugely important information to know.” — (Jessica, [31:04])
  • “The bottom line…is use an all-purpose flour, or if you are in France, a T55.” — (David, [31:35])

2. Is a Sheeter Worth It in the Home Kitchen?

(Listener Q, [32:22])

• Sheeter Explained: A machine for rolling and laminating dough, most common in commercial bakeries.
• “If you’re going to do it, you should probably make croissants without a sheeter...a dozen times, know that you really love making croissants at home before you invest in a sheeter.” — (David, [34:20])
• Home Use: Great for cottage bakers or gear-heads, but a rolling pin suffices for most. ([34:20–35:12])

3. Best Butter for Croissants: European or American?

(Listener Q, [35:21])

• Verdict: European-style butter is preferred due to higher fat content (“82–85% vs. 80%” for American).
• “What that extra butter fat does is helps the butter remain pliable...ideally a butter that can, like, bend.” — (David, [36:11])

4. Jess Opinions: Trend Crimes

• “A crime against humanity is the croissant that is stuffed and then topped with chocolate chip cookie dough. Why?” — (Jessica, [37:39])
• The “twice-baked” almond croissant has tradition on its side. Cookie dough croissant? “Just leave it alone.” — (Jessica, [39:01])
• Fun fact: Classic almond croissants are a creative way to revive day-old croissants, not a fresh-bake item.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “What you may be thinking of as the ideal croissant may not have been the ideal croissant 20 years ago.” (David, [03:07])
• “Butter is the non-negotiable.” (Jessica, [05:59])
• “The croissant is often used as...a scarcity bake.” (Jessica, [10:02])
• On croissant proofing: “Look for that marshmallowy, pillowy feel...and if you can see the layers clearly, that's a sign that it's well-proofed.” (Elisabeth, [20:56])
• “Trust the process because it is a process. And don’t be afraid to make mistakes.” (Elisabeth, [24:16])
• “More butter, more better is our next T-shirt.” (Jessica, [37:02])
• “A crime against humanity is the croissant that is stuffed and then also topped with chocolate chip cookie dough. Why?” (Jessica, [37:39])

---

Tools & Trends [13:19, 32:22, 34:20]

• Sheeters & Professional Tools: Home bakers increasingly have access to professional-style equipment — but the consensus: try croissants a dozen times by hand before investing ($$ and space) in a home sheeter.
• Sprinkles, Food Colors, On Demand Classes: King Arthur partners with Supernatural for dye-free sprinkles and promotes baking school’s on-demand lamination course for croissants and Danish ([26:47]).

---

What the Hosts Are Baking [40:23–42:51]

• David: Wants to try “chiropin” (salt bread) — a trend “vaguely croissant-ish, but simpler.”
• Jessica: Frequently makes weeknight Detroit pan pizza from the new King Arthur book—“pretty low stakes...feeds more people.” ([41:06])

---

Episode Takeaways

• Croissants are a labor of love—but worth every buttery step for the adventurous home baker.
• The fundamentals (pure butter, correct flour, careful proofing) matter more than any trend.
• Innovation is fun, but classic techniques and restraint still win hearts.
• Making mistakes is part of mastering croissants—embrace the process!

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Croissant Texture & Evolution: [00:49–08:25]
• Croissant Lore (French shape/fat): [06:36–07:57]
• Croissant Trends & “Scarcity Bake”: [07:57–12:46]
• Home Baking Challenges: [12:47–13:43]
• Elisabeth Berthasavage Interview: [13:50–24:59]
• Listener Flour Q&A: [28:08–31:35]
• Gear/Sheeter Q&A: [32:22–35:12]
• Butter Q&A: [35:21–37:02]
• Jess Opinions on Croissant Crimes: [37:16–40:20]

---

For more detailed tutorials, on-demand classes, and recipes, visit kingarthurbaking.com.

Transcript

[A]

This episode is sponsored by Brod and Taylor, makers of the new countertop dough sheeter built to elevate every bake ahead. No, the best croissants are the ones you make at home. No, not true. You know, from King Arthur Baking Company. This is things bakers Know. I'm David Tamarkin, King Arthur's editorial director.

[B]

And I'm Jessica Battalana, King Arthur's staff editor. And today, we are devoting the entire episode to flaky, buttery croissants.

[A]

Bonjour. How do I do it? Croissant.

[B]

Croissant. Croissant.

[A]

In Ohio, we called them croissants or

[B]

crescent rolls or actually, that was more

[A]

across the river in Kentucky. Croissants. Yeah. But, yeah, I'm here to talk about

[B]

it, and I'm going to offer a very, very early Jess opinion. I like just to get them in now at the top of the show so people don't have to wait.

[A]

Yes. Right.

[B]

And tell you that I think the best croissants are the ones that you can't eat without, like, destroying your outfit.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

You know, like, where they're shatteringly crisp, lots of flaky shards of pastry, and you're like. You get them all over your shirt, all over your pants.

[A]

Right. The best croissants are the ones you make at home. No, not true. But we are talking about baking them at home. For anybody who does not know, though, let's back up. And I don't think. I think there are very few people who don't know what a croissant is. But for those who don't know, croissants are laminated pastry. We've talked about lamination a lot because we're a baking podcast. We're going to talk about it again. I'm going to give you the top line.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Which is that a laminated dough is when you take a relatively lean dough, meaning a dough that doesn't have a lot of fat in it can have some. And you layer that with pure fat with butter, and you roll it out. You do a series of folds, roll again, shape, fold, trim, roll, fold, roll, lay down. And then you have a dough that's layered with butter, and it bakes up into a very crispy thing because the butter melts, it lets off steam. The steam creates flakes. That's the top line. And croissant is probably the most famous and maybe the most delicious version of

[B]

the laminated, I think so pastry. So you're making essentially a yeasted puff pastry that's the.

[A]

I'm glad you said that. That's the main difference. Right? Yeah. That croissant is yeasted. Yeah, it has a little bit of yeast.

[B]

I mean, there are sourdough versions, but I consider a sourdough croissant. You don't see them as much. The majority of the croissants you're going to find in bakeries are yeasted.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm not gonna say better or worse. I'm just gonna say more common.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because I will run. I'll knock people down on the street to run to a sourdough croissant.

[B]

Will you?

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. Caused lots of mayhem running towards sourdough croissants.

[B]

Have you had a good one in New York City? Probably, yeah. Okay. I didn't mean to put you on the spot.

[A]

Here's the thing. Croissants. It seems like it should be something simple to talk about. It's really not. Because things have changed. And what we think of as an ideal croissant now, and you seem to have some very strong opinions about that. So I want to dig into that. But what you may be thinking of as the ideal croissant may not have been the ideal croissant 20 years ago.

[B]

I think that's true.

[A]

And we've talked about this with so many things. I feel like we talked about this with chocolate chip cookies, sourdough bread, for one thing. We're gonna be talking about that.

[B]

We talked about pacha, like, this evolution over time.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

What is, like, sort of in vogue.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm just gonna use as many French words as I can in this episode.

[A]

You know, I'm so sick of change. Like, why can't anything stay the same? It's a croissant.

[B]

I mean, and you're right, because when, you know, when I was growing up and the first croissants I had were at, like, chains, like au bon pain. M. Another series of French words. And they were, you know, they weren't as flaky. They were like a little doughier.

[A]

Bready.

[B]

Breadier. A little breadier. And now I think the style is. Is, you know, these sort of very flaky with, like, that. We've talked a lot about this internally here at King Art. This honeycomb structure.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

One of the things about croissants is, like, it's the great trick of the ages, Right. That it is loaded with butter. It's literally like more. I think, more butter by ratio than anything else. And yet, why so light? How so flaky? It's kind of miraculous. Like, sometimes you're eating a croissant and, you know it's pure butter, but it just is, like, dissolving on your tongue.

[A]

I think that really is the difference between croissant dough and, you know, classic puff pastry. Like, you said that yeast is really doing a lot of work, right? I mean, it's creating an airy structure.

[B]

And people want to, you know, they want to make croissants at home. We know this because, like, the class that we teach in lemonade doughs at our baking school is far and away one of the most popular classes. And we have Elizabeth, the instructor, coming on the podcast later to talk about that class and making croissants at home. So people really want to try and, like, crack the code at home.

[A]

Yes, they do.

[B]

Not me. Because they are a little fiddly. Okay. I mean, that's an understatement of the century. They're fiddly to make.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And they're fiddly to make because, you know, you need to control the temperature of the butter and the dough. Then you need to control the temperature when the dough is proofing. Then you need to control the temperature when you're baking. And there's just, you know, in a home kitchen, there's so many variables that are harder to control and dial in with a precision that I think something like a croissant requires. But people want to try.

[A]

People want to try, and we're going

[B]

to try and help them.

[A]

Okay, so things change, but some things don't change. What are the non negotiables for a good croissant, in your opinion?

[B]

Butter?

[A]

Well, I mean, I would laugh, but that's true.

[B]

It's true. Because I think when you get a lot of the supermarket croissant or the take and bake or even some from, you know, like, I would say, lesser bakeries, they're made with a combination of butter and, you know, some sort of vegetable shortening. And not only does it affect the texture, but of course, the flavor. Like, they. They are lacking that delicious, like, buttery flavor throughout. So I. I consider that to be a non negot. And that has not changed throughout time. I think, you know, the best croissants have always been made with pure butter.

[A]

You had a really interesting, like, little factoid about that.

[B]

I did.

[A]

About the shape of the croissants.

[B]

Oh, yes, yes. I was reading that in France, all butter croissants are straight, whereas butter croissants that are made with a mixture of butter and A different kind of fat are curved. I don't know if that's universally true, but that is sort of the standard, you know, and in France, they control a lot of things. Like they have laws about a lot of things related to baked goods, like the cost of baguettes and things like that. So it's not, I don't think it's a law, but it seems to be the sort of a custom so that at a glance you can be like, imposter, real deal. I mean, how helpful would that be if we had that for other things?

[A]

I love that it's. I think that's so cool. Good croissant also has a strong bake. And I don't necessarily think this is universally accepted. I think some people like a sort of paler baker on the croissant.

[B]

I mean, some people like a paler bake on everything. Yes. And those people are wrong.

[A]

You said, you said it. But I do think that a pale croissant is probably a flabby croissant and you're not getting the maximum flake. And I want to say crunch, you never want like a super crunchy croissant, but there's a light crunch, crispiness, a

[B]

little caramelization, you know?

[A]

Yeah, caramelization. So for me, oh, that's a non negotiable. For me, a strong bakery, deep golden brown.

[B]

And now, I mean, I think there are lots of good examples of classic croissant, classic all butter croissant out there. But you know, people can't resist, bakers can't resist, and consumers of baked goods can't resist, like wanting to mess with a classic thing. Right. So I think like as frequently as you see an all butter plain croissant, you see like some crazy innovation happening now.

[A]

Yeah. Right. And I think we can maybe take this back to the cronut. Oh, I don't know. The cronut, I don't think it started there, but I think that was like a sort of a liftoff in terms of things you could do.

[B]

Can you tell people about the.

[A]

Basically deep fry it? Yeah, I mean, I would be surprised if people don't know, but cronut is a pastry that was developed by Dominique Ansel in New York City at his bakery, which I think is just called Dominique Anzo Baker.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

But I've never had it. I'm sure it's delicious. But it's a deep fried, deep fried croissant dough that's then filled with, you know, pastry cream or, you know, he's filled, he fills it seasonally with all sorts of things.

[B]

And the idea, it's a mashup of a croissant and a donut.

[A]

And a donut. Right. And I've never had any. Have you ever had the real cronut?

[B]

No, I've never had a cronut.

[A]

Oh, yeah. I believe we're baked goods.

[B]

We're cronut versions here. Like, given how much we love baked goods.

[A]

But I do think I just hate lines.

[B]

I mean, I do too. And I do think you're right. Right. That the cronut was like the point at which, you know, people were like, hold on, like, we can do more with this. And. And you started to see, you know, croissants baked in, like square pans. You know, croissant loafs baked in square pans or in the Supremes, which are, you know, baked in circular molds so they look like snails, like all curled up.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

I mean, and those are so beautiful. Like, very deeply brown on both sides. Sometimes they're like filled.

[A]

Right. Sometimes they're d dipped and they're topped with little candies or nuts. Those are sold at Lafayette.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

In New York City. And, you know, and the croissant is often used as what I would call a scarcity bake. You know, and I don't know if that's the term. Is that the term?

[B]

You know, in 2023, there was a article in the Wall Street Journal about something called the croissant theory.

[A]

Oh, yes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Tell us about that.

[B]

So the croissant theory is this. You know, it's a business strategy. Right. Like popularized by bakeries. And basically it is that scarcity, you know, you sort of create the special thing to drive demand, to build hype, to get people in line and to sort of like increase, I think, like, you know, sort of perceived value of the thing.

[A]

Yeah. And you don't make very many of them, so that there's always sort of fervor.

[B]

Yeah. It's hard to get. And like, you, you know, then you get your customers to post about it on social media. So it's like you're intention just building the buzz.

[A]

Yeah. And I don't think you could do that with every baked good. I don't think you can do that with a loaf of bread. I mean, the croissant is something special. It really captures something for people. It always feels a little special, I think. I don't think anybody, I mean, in America is eating croissants every single day

[B]

of their life, which is always a

[A]

special occasion thing, I think. For people. So it makes sense to me that that's often what the scarcity bake is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Why the theory was named after croissants.

[B]

Yeah. I would be curious to see you was in. I was in France last November and we certainly ate a lot of pastries, but I don't know that I saw. I mean, I'm sure they exist, but I didn't see as many like wild flavored croissants there as I see in American bakeries. Like now I feel like the fillings are like all, you know, it's no longer just like pen au chocolat, ham and cheese, plain. It's like, you know, whatever. It's like yuzu chamomile. It's like malted milk chocolate fill. Like there's just like so much innovation happening both in the form and in the flavor.

[A]

Yeah. I feel like Supermoon in Manhattan is doing a lot of work with flavors, colors, and you know, honestly, another place I've never been, but I've heard it's actually really good that it's not just shtick, that the, that the quality is there too. But that's, that's the thing. Like, I'm always a little skeptical when I see a croissant that's like rainbow colored. Like this looks like a gimmick to me. I mean, yeah, that's the thing. Like croissants are often used can go gimmicky really fast. And I'm sure I know a lot of them are truly good. The one at Lafayette was developed by a pastry chef named Daniel Skernik. I think excellent pastry chef. I mean, like, I mean true, you know, true pro. And I'm sure it's delicious. But if you want to make them at home yourself. Yeah, you can do that.

[B]

You can do that.

[A]

You can do that with a chocolate. You can make a chocolate croissant at home by yourself. If you're up for a little project,

[B]

we gotta get into it. So everyone roll up your sleeves. Wipe the sweat from your brow, right?

[A]

Because actually this is not something that you and I can talk about amongst ourselves because we don't do that.

[B]

I mean, I believe you can, but should you? I don't know. We're gonna, we're gonna drill down on that, but we are gonna get some help on the question of can you. How do you. From our baking school instructor, Elizabeth Bertha Savage.

[A]

Yes. The how and the why.

[B]

And the why.

[A]

Yeah. Elizabeth is a long time instructor at our baking school and she has a really, really good new on demand Class all about lamination. Intro to lamination. So she covers croissants. She also covers Danish, which honestly is sort of like where I want to try first and a few other things. And she's got a very just chill teaching style. Really makes you feel like you can do anything.

[B]

Yeah, I know.

[A]

So we're gonna talk to her and at the end of this podcast, end of this interview, you and I, we're

[B]

gonna head to the kitchen, feel like

[A]

we can make croissants. Elizabeth, thank you so much for being here. On Things Bakers Know, I thought we would just start with probably the biggest question, which is why is it even worth it to make a croissant at home?

[C]

Well, you know, I feel like. And I often poll the students, like, why are you here today? Like, what brings you to King Arthur Baking Company and to this class in particular? And I feel like a lot of students will say, oh, croissants are so delicious. And they're also cost driven. So, you know, the average cost of a croissant really is from a nice bakery is anywhere from four to eight dollars. And so that really adds up. And if you want this delicious pastry a couple times a week. There you go. Now you can't afford your coffee, so it just.

[A]

Or your mortgage.

[C]

Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, I feel like that's usually what it comes down to.

[A]

It's a great point. I wonder if you see this in your students. When I do something like lamination at home, it's truly because it's fun and it's a project and it's a challenge. It's not the type. It is as much for me about the process as it is about the end result. Do you find that with your students?

[D]

Hey, it's Francis Lamb, host of the Splendid Table podcast. Every week on our show, we celebrate the intersection of food and life. And this month we're releasing a new series called Culinary Masters. It highlights some of the most iconic people in the food world. And we're revisiting conversations with people who have fundamentally changed how many of us cook and think about food. People like Jacques Pepin, Claudia Rodin and Tony Bourdain, to name a few. You can listen to this special series now. Just search for the Splendid Table in your podcast app.

[C]

Yes, definitely. I think it's funny because most of the students that walk through that door, and I can say this, for a lot of topics, especially with laminations, 2/3 of them have never even tried and have no idea what they're walking into. But then you have like that one third who have tried it and they really have gained a respect to or for the process. And so they are there to really understand what they're doing wrong. And then the other students are there because, hey, this sounds fun. I love croissants. I'd like to make them at home. And I mean, it can go both ways. So it's definitely worth it to try it at home, for sure.

[A]

What are the main differences between making a croissant at home and making a croissant in a professional setting?

[C]

Yeah, so, you know, working in a, in a professional setting, there definitely are a lot of crutches that, that are used. But I would say the primary one that makes it, I would say easier in a commercial setting is going to be the proof box, because you have complete, almost complete control over what's happening, the timing. So you've got the temperature, you've got humidity, and I mean, you can even like get it going the night before, all shaped on the speed rack in the proof box, have it on cold, and then have it timed so that it pops onto proof when you're still at home, that kind of thing. Right. So that's probably one of the challenges with at home, like for the home baker, is the proof.

[A]

There are ways to emulate a proof box at home, which are your favorite ways.

[C]

So my favorite way, and I talk about this in the on demand class too, is using your home oven, because obviously it's not turned on to 400 degrees at this point, but use your home oven, and that's where you can place your sheet pan with your croissants. Because the home oven is sort of a little box, it is safe for many drafts. And if I have my oven light on, and I only know this because I have an instant read thermometer I can put in the oven, I know I can get that little box up to 72 degrees. So that's a lot warmer than my kitchen. Because in the summer or in the wintertime, my kitchen is like 60, 61 degrees. It's very cold. So use your oven like it's a tool. And then I also use. I get some hot water like in a muffin, and I place that in my oven to sort of give it a little bit of humidity, because that's actually going to help with the fermentation. Yeast will be much happ. So, you know, every 30 minutes. And I set a timer for this too. I'm a little, I'm a little obsessive about it, but I set a timer for the for the mug of hot water. And I'll swap that out every 30 minutes. So. And when I know that I'm getting close, I only know that from experience, I'll pull out that sheet pan, put it on my counter, get my oven preheated.

[A]

Nice. So oven light on a cup of steaming hot water that's replaced on a regular basis. You have a great proof box. You mentioned that proofing croissants is different from proofing bread. What do you mean by that?

[C]

Well, you know, like oftentimes in recipes with bread, it'll talk about, you know, especially with loaf pan breads, it'll crest an inch above the edge of the pan. At least. You know, take your finger, poke it, you know, just make it. Sure. It feels pillowy and soft. And that is true with croissants. They should feel pillowy, marshmallowy. Even when you give like that sheet pan a little shake, you know, a time or two, it will just like wobble back and forth. So there's a lot of that that you're looking for for. But I feel like students kind of get locked into this. Oh, it has to double in size and it's going to expand this way and like this way. It's really not the case with croissants. So I just feel like it's such a specific shape too, and you have to look for slightly different identifiers to say, hey, these are ready. So often I also mention try to peel back the layers, like almost with your finger. You can kind of see the layers that you've created by peeling them back. That's also really cool to see. You can see the separation.

[A]

And if you can see the layers clearly, that's a sign that it's well proofed.

[C]

Yes, that is one of the signs for sure. And also that marshmallowy, pillowy feel to the, to the croissant.

[B]

Yes,

[A]

I think there are some bakes. Well, in general, I think that home bakers, a lot of them, don't proof enough. In general, I think we are a world of chronically under proof proofing bakers. But I do feel like there are some bakes where you want to push the proof even farther or even further than others. For example, I think with hala, I try to push myself to push that final proof as far as possible because I know that's going to give me the best shape and the best structure of my challah. And it can be hard sometimes because I don't like to wait. I get impatient. Are croissants in that camp for you. Do you feel like they benefit from just really pushing that proof and trying to get it as jiggly and marshmallowy as possible, or do we really have to pay extra close attention to not overproofing because we'll, you know, experience some collapsing in the oven?

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, there certainly is a fine line, so. But, yes, I do overall. I do overall, really agree that it can benefit from a proof that you're really pushing to its max. But I think where people sort of stumble, especially with croissants, where you have this layering of butter in between a longer proof, or shall I say, like a longer or overproofing process, can actually get that butter too soft, especially when you're not in an environment, or these are not proofing in an environment that's terribly controlled with temperature. And then if you get the butter too soft by giving it that longer proof, what can happen in the oven then is that butter has a tendency to leak. And then you're going to see pools of butter on your sheet pan, and you're going to wonder why. And then the sort of. The texture of the overall product is going to be somewhat denser, somewhat chewier, a very lackluster, you know, oven spring. You know, it's just gonna, like, not be great.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And so you have to be careful. And I think, you know, for students who are new to this, I would just look for those identifiers that I described and keep it at that, especially when you don't have complete control over where these things are proofing. Because overproofing is not great, but also underproofing is equally not great.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. So it is not good advice to say, just push it. Just push it, push it, push it. We gotta pay attention, I think, with experience.

[C]

Yes. Within time. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. This has all been wonderful, Elizabeth. But to close out, just want to make sure that we're giving everybody your top tips. What is the number one piece of encouragement you give to students when they're making croissants at home?

[C]

Trust the process because it is a process. And don't be afraid to make mistakes, because you got to learn from those mistakes. I've learned from them. We've all learned from them. So give yourself a pat on the back just for trying.

[A]

I love that, like, so much baking advice. It's just life advice, too. Right. So I. I really appreciate that.

[C]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

Well, thank you so much, Elizabeth, for coming on the show and demystifying croissants for us. Again, folks can check you out Live in person at the Vermont Baking School and also in our on demand classes, which are [e-mail] yeah, you're welcome.

[C]

Thanks for having me.

[A]

This episode is brought to you by Brod and Taylor. Achieving even and consistent layers has always been one of the trickier parts of laminated dough. But the Brod and Taylor countertop dough sheeter makes it nearly foolproof.

[B]

The amazing thing about this dough sheeter is that they have taken a professional piece of equipment and sized it for a home kitchen so it's the right scale. It's compact enough to fit on your countertop, but it fulfills the mission of a professional dough sheeter, giving you, like, those beautiful layers of butter and dough. And then when you're done using it, it's easy to break down and store.

[A]

Yeah, when I retire and become a cottage bakery, only doing croissants out of my little Manhattan apartment, I'm gonna use this dough sheeter every fold every layer just right. Find the countertop dough [e-mail] this episode is brought to you by Supernatural. Supernatural makes sprinkles food colors and flavors that are completely colored by plants, fully traceable, and totally free from anything artificial or synthetic.

[B]

And it's just a proven fact. It is just a proven fact that sprinkles make everything more fun. So you can add them to your pancake batter, you can sprinkle them on your ice cream, and of course, you can use them to top a frosted cake. You can find Supernatural sprinkles, food colors, flavors, and [e-mail] and the full line is available at supernaturalkitchen.com this episode is brought to you by our on demand Baking School classes. Did you know that we have on demand classes that you can take anywhere, anytime, as many times as you like, which is very handy if, like me, you don't always get things the first time.

[A]

I have been that person. Person Shaping the bagels.

[B]

Rewind. Rewatch. And if this episode has inspired you to make croissants at home, I mean, God bless you. Good luck. But we have two classes that can help. One taught by our baker, Wilhelm Wanders all about croissants. And a second class, that's our intro to lamination class taught by today's guest, Elizabeth Bertha Savage. She'll teach you to make croissants, but also other laminated pastries like Danishes. You can find all of our on Demand [e-mail] Baking School. It's time for our next segment. Ask the Bakers for Ask the Bakers. We want to hear from you. If you have a baking question for us, head to kingarthurbaking.com podcast to record a voice message and we may end up using your question on the show. That's kingarthurbaking.com podcast.

[A]

And of course, if you have a question that simply cannot wait, you can always reach out to the Baker's Hotline via phone, email or chat. Just call us at 855-371-2253. That's 2253 as in bake. Or go to kingarthurbaking.com bakers hotline. That's bakers-hotline.

[B]

Let's hear our first question. I hope we can answer this question.

[E]

Hi. So let's talk flour. I understand about protein content for gluten formation, but I don't really understand about ash. When you look at, and when you look at the French flours, they talk about T45, T55 and their ash content. And the reason I ask is because I see a lot of croissants like Viennoiserie recipes that talk about protein content and then the French ones talk about ash percentage. And so, so I'm not quite sure how to find what the best flour is for croissant, whether I can just use bread flour, whether I should use this T45 stuff. So if you could hook me up with an answer, that'd be great. Thanks.

[B]

This is a next level question. This is a challenging question. So the good news for this baker is that they don't really need to think about ash content if they don't want to. Because at King Arthur, with our milling partners, we've already thought about it. That's not a very satisfying answer, though, I realize. So we're going to get into it a little bit. So when we talk about ash content, you know, we each flower has its own specifications for the ash content, but it invites this bigger question of like, what is ash content? When we're talking about, it's like I was hoping to get off easy going to give the nickel version, which is, you know, when you take, and this is, you know, in a controlled environment, you take flour, you burn the flour. What's left behind is the ash content. And that is represented as a percentage of the total amount of flour. And that's the minerals left in a flour. So the more refined the flour, the less ash content. So white flour, for example, is like 0.55% ash content. And in France, that would be called like a T55 flour, whereas something like a whole wheat flour because, you know, there's more to burn, there's more endosperm that's going to be, you know, a higher percentage of ash after this burn. So maybe like 1.5%, something like that. So that's what we're talking about when we talk about ash content in France, they usually spec T45, what they call T45 or T55 flower. So 0.45% ash or 0.55% ash content flowers here in the States. And when we're talking about the King Arthur flowers, you know, a 0.55 flower is going to be our all purpose flower. So the AP will give you great, I mean, will it give you great results? It will give you the closest to sort of a French flour that we have access to here.

[A]

You do want some strength in your dough because it is, you know, it is rising. You do need gluten and you do need the proteins in the dough to capture the carbon dioxide that the yeast.

[B]

Right. Which is why you wouldn't use like a cake flour or like a pastry flour. You know, you do need something that has a bit of strength in it,

[A]

but you don't want to go the other way.

[B]

Exactly. You don't want to make it because you don't want them to be tough like you want them to remain light. Yeah. So that is, I think that, I mean, I hope that answers the question, but it's, I mean, I think ash content is something that professional bakers think about a lot. I know our mailing partners think about a lot and we have specifications for that. But for a home baker, I think it's not, you know, I don't think it's hugely important information to know and that's why we don't include it in all the bags of our flour.

[A]

So the bottom line for this collar is use an all purpose flower or if you are in France, a T55.

[B]

T55 or T45, I think are the standard flowers for croissants there. And, and you know, there are, there is such a thing as a whole wheat croissant. That's all I'll say about that.

[A]

That's another episode.

[B]

Yeah, that's another episode. So I hope that's helpful. But let's, so let's, let's hear our next question.

[E]

Hey, King Arthur, this is Julia in Jackson Hole, Wyoming, and I was gifted a home sheeter. I love the idea of it, but it takes up so much space. Is it worth it to keep it when I already have rolling pins? Would love to hear your thoughts. Thanks.

[A]

I like the style of this. Of this baker. Calling this baker is a serious one. You know, first of all, let's just talk about what a sheeter is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

A sheeter is a piece of machinery commonly, most commonly found in professional bakeries that are doing a lot of lamination. They look like. They look like baggage carousels.

[B]

They do, yeah, exactly. Right. Yeah.

[A]

You send. And what happens is you send your dough and your butter block through these sheeters and they make it thinner and thinner. It's almost like a. Like a pasta machine.

[B]

Yeah. So it's like a conveyor belt with rollers. So it, like you roll it one way and then you might fold it manually on the other end and turn it and then you roll it back through the rollers. It is an automated way to do what we would do with a rolling pin.

[A]

Right. And it makes. It laminates very consistently and very quickly. And which is good because, you know, one of the hard things about making croissants at home, which we've talked about in this episode a lot, is controlling the butter temperature. And the quicker you can do it, the. The more your butter will stay the same temperature.

[B]

Sure. So there was a home version of this piece of equipment called a sheeter that was recently, fairly recently brought to market.

[A]

Yeah, I think it's brought. And Taylor does it. And we. And we love Bron and Taylor products. We talk about their home proofer a bunch. And they. There's a. A bread steel bread cup. What are they? They have a bread steel and then a cover for it to. To make, you know, so that you can bake loaves in a gas oven. So, yeah, big fan of their products. I think a sheeter is very cool. The idea of having a sheeter at home, I love that idea. I've never made a croissant in my life, but I love that idea. I think if you're going to do it, you should probably make croissants without a sheeter. I'm going to say a dozen times, know that you really love making croissants at home before you invest in a sheet of.

[B]

I think you, if were one of the people out there that's like, has a cottage bakery business, you know, and you wanted to expand into laminated pastries like that might be, or, you know, if you're just a gearhead and you want to, like, tinker around with something like. I think it would be fun I've never used one. I can't really justify the space. I don't think for the amount of times I make croissants at home, I'm holding up a zero. But I think they are interesting. And I mean, I also just think what's cool about it is that, that it's sort of, you see this trend toward things that were once like just the purview of professional bakery, like equipment, tool, you know, now making their way into home kitchens. And that's like, that's fun. It's interesting to see. This may not be the one that I pick up, but I think it's cool to see that they're now like looking toward very ambitious home bakers when they're thinking about what tools and products to bring to market.

[A]

So do it the hard way first and then take the easy way out with the sheeting.

[B]

Exactly, exactly. Let's, let's hear our next question.

[E]

What's the best butter to make croissants? Should I use European or American butter?

[B]

Well, we were talking about this and you were unequivocal.

[A]

Yes, I think in this situation, European butter is the go to. I mean, that's our recommendation here at European style Butter. And the reason why is because European butter, well, it has more butter fat in it, it has less water, more butter fat than American style. But butter American style comes in around 80, European style comes in at least 82, 83, 80, 45, you know, in that range.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And what that extra butter fat does is helps the butter remain pliable when you're doing all your rolling and stacking and folding and rolling again. And you know, I mean, you do want ideally a butter that can like bend.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

And that's the, that's the ultimate state.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's easier to get that with European butter.

[B]

Yeah. And you don't. I mean now there are true European made butters available in the States, you know, Plugra being one brand, but there's also lots of domestically made European, I'm putting it in quotes here, European style butter that have that higher butterfat percentage. Here at the King Arthur Kitchens we use the Cabot, which is a Vermont, you know, butter company and theirs comes in at about 82% butter fat. But you know, there's also one from Vermont Creamery, like there are quite a few domestic manufacturers. So you can just look for something that says European style on it and then, you know, it should boast about the, the butterfat percentage. So more butter, more better is right. I mean, is our next T shirt is my new bumper sticker.

[A]

All right, let's see what else Jessica has to say every episode. We love to check in with Jessica to hear what wildly surprising and full throated opinions are in her head. A segment we lovingly call Jess opinions. And, Jessica, you have a croissant Just opinion.

[B]

Of course I do. Of course I do.

[A]

I think you've given a few already.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, as always, I can't limit it to just one. But we were talking at the top of the show about flavored. You know, how like now croissants are. They're shaped differently, they have different flavors.

[A]

Evolution.

[B]

Yeah, evolution. Yeah. And I'm in support of evolution to a degree.

[A]

Do you believe in.

[B]

I believe in evolution. But you know what is a. A crime against humanity is the croissant that is stuffed and then also topped with chocolate chip cookie dough. Why?

[A]

Why? Okay. Yes. So in case.

[B]

Croissants, delicious.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Chocolate chip cookie dough, delicious. They don't need to be combined.

[A]

Okay. For people who may have missed this trend on social media.

[B]

Glad for you.

[A]

These were. This was a trend where people seemed like, store bought croissants.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And maybe store bought cookie dough.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Splitting open the baked croissant, putting raw cookie dough in.

[B]

Oh, God, I'm getting a stomach ache on it.

[A]

And then baking it.

[B]

No. Then closing the croissant. And then sometimes putting more cookie dough on top.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And then baking.

[A]

And then baking it. Yes.

[B]

So what you got was like a sort of a baked chocolate chip cookie on top of a croissant. And inside unbaked, but hot. Like melted cookie dough.

[A]

Unbaked.

[B]

I mean, it was baked, but like soft bake. Right. Like, and I will say. You say at home. It wasn't just at home, David.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

Professionals were doing this. Professionals are doing this out in the world. Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I'm not gonna name names, but I've seen it.

[A]

You're not gonna name it, but you are gonna be, you know, writing some tickets.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. I'm gonna be writing some tickets. I just think, you know, there's sometimes, like, it just goes too far. These trends go too far. And we all know, like, people love chocolate chip cookies. We all know that croissants are delicious. And that's fine. Like, just. They don't need to be. I will say, you know, it's not like the, the twice baked croissant does not have a precedent. It just has, like a much classier say.

[A]

There, there. There is a precedent for this, which, of course, is the almond croissant yes. Which I don't think people know. Which I think that's wor. But I don't think people know that the classic almond croissant is a day old croissant that's been split and, you know, soaked. Yeah. Soaked with some simple syrup to, you know, revive it and then filled with some French Japan.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In the same style, like in the middle and some on top sometimes, and then rebaked. So. And that's the way it's supposed to be. Like sometimes people. You know, I think some bakers now make fresh almond croissants. That's not right.

[B]

No, no. I mean, I think you want like actually the structure of a day old. Like you want it to kind of. And they get, you know, that you're kind of handling those a little more roughly. That's fine. I like an almond croissant.

[A]

Yeah. So you. So the twice baked croissant is not your.

[B]

No, I don't have an issue with the twice.

[A]

It's the cookie dough.

[B]

Yeah, just leave it alone. So that's what I got for you this week.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now what do you have for me this week? What are you baking this week?

[A]

I don't think I'm ready to dive into croissants yet. Not this week. But I'm going to do something that's sort of bageling the shape, which is chiropin or the salt bread.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Talk about trends.

[A]

Yeah, this was trendy. A couple months ago. We got cat Lou, a baker, to do a recipe for us. This is a bread that is shaped vaguely. It's like a kind of a crescent shape. So it's vaguely croissant. Ish. And the dough is shaped around a nub of butter so that when it bakes you have this kind of hole in the middle. But it's also like this buttery, delicious thing. It's very crispy on the bottom.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So. So it seems really fun. I haven't baked it yet, so I want to try it.

[B]

Yeah, I think a good entry level way to roll dough around butter and get something delicious. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And I could tell people, yeah, this is the croissant. What do you mean?

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

No, I did. No, I made croissants. Here it is.

[B]

Well, you know what?

[E]

I.

[B]

This is. Maybe I've talked about this before because it really is something that we make all the time. But the book of pizza came out just about a month ago.

[A]

About a month ago. Yeah.

[B]

So we make the weeknight Detroit pizza all the time now. And I It because pan pizza feeds more people really like pretty low stakes. I don't have to like be you know, shuttling rounds of pizza dough off and off, you know, in and out of the oven.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

And it's, you know, we have some suggestions in the book for how to top it but I find you can be pretty freewheeling with that dough and still get a great pizza.

[A]

So are you always doing cheese first on that dough?

[B]

I always do cheese first and I do cheese right up to the edge of the pan. And I did invest in one of the loyalty Detroit pans which are you know, the anodized aluminum, dark anodized aluminum which makes a huge difference. Like you really get a truly crisp crust and that like frico edge and then you know like once you get the cheese down, like everything else is gravy. Like you can do salt red sauce which is my kids preference. But I also do, there's a the recipe in the book for you know, you and I are at odds with this ingredient.

[A]

I know what you're gonna say.

[B]

Broccoli rabe, one of my top ingredients. And it's black olives and broccoli rabe and cheese. And that's really good. And it's just one of many things you can do with that dough. So that one is truly like. And you can make it in an afternoon. Like you can think about.

[A]

Right. Which is why it's week and at

[B]

6pm you can be eating that pizza and everyone will be happy. So yeah, it's a great pizza. Yeah, I can't make that too many times. So that's what I'm gonna do. And then I'm gonna be back with you next week for another episode in the interim. We always appreciate listeners tuning in to us here on Things Bakers Know.

[A]

Yep. Yeah. Yes, we sure do. And remember to like and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you're listening to your podcast. Also if you're on subset, give us a subscribe there. Check us out there. We're sending out newsletters that align loosely to these, to these episodes and we're having a good time over there. So please, please check us out.

[B]

I also, I mean we do read the reviews I always appreciate.

[A]

Oh do we?

[B]

Yeah, we read them through in our heads while we can't sleep at night. So leave us a review and also share episodes with friends that love to bake so they know about us.

[A]

And in between writing reviews, people don't forget, follow the recipe, especially when you're

[B]

making croissants, especially when you're baking croissants.

[A]

Things Bakers Know is hosted and executive produced by me, David Tumorkin and me,

[B]

Jessica Batalon Rossi Anastapoulo is our senior

[A]

producer, Chad Chanay is our producer, and Marcus Bagala is our engineer. Original music by Megan and Marcus Bagala.

[B]

Thanks again to our colleague Elizabeth Bertha Savage for joining us on today's episode. You can learn from Elizabeth online or in person at our baking school. She's an amazing instructor. It would be a gift to yourself or to somebody you love to give them that on demand class or to send them here to from Vermont to the Real life baking school, right?

[A]

If you can get in.

[B]

If you can get in. Hottest ticket in town. And you can find more about all of these [e-mail] Baking School Things Bakers

[A]

Know is a King Arthur Baking Company podcast. This episode is brought to you by a new collaboration between King Arthur and Supernatural. Supernatural, of course, is the maker of America's brightest dye free sprinkles. And we are putting those sprinkles in our new confederacy. Confetti cake mix and Confetti sugar cookie mix. Let me tell you something. I made the cake and I made it to an ice cream cake. It was gorgeous. It was celebratory. It was like my birthday, but it wasn't even my birthday. Find both mixes@target target.com and of course@King ArthurBaking.com.