Matt Abrahams (5:00)

And that's exactly why we use this article to kick up our class on strategic communication is to highlight how important both components are. A strategy that doesn't have a clear articulate story is just shelfware. And a story that isn't informed by strategy isn't really going to help be motivational. And I really like the piece that you'd mentioned, but also the article really talks about, which is the power of using questions to help not only determine your story, but to engage others in that story so they're more likely to follow along. So questions really to me seem to be a core essence of that is.

Martin Reeves (5:37)

A great technology in a way because questions can interrogate, they can elicit information, they can be purposeful, but be modest about the state of knowledge or ignorance. So they can be part of an inquiry, they're a shared social process and also they can shape a process. I'm asking the right question in the right order elicits a certain response and a certain momentum. So it's a lot better than simply letting anyone do everything they want and alternatively telling. So it's a very sophisticated technology. Hard, hard to use, bit like listening, very important, but hard for people.

Matt Abrahams (6:15)

The ability to ask good questions at the appropriate time towards a specific goal is challenging, but can be very fruitful. As you said, I like labeling it a technology. I really enjoyed your book the Imagination Machine. And in that book you discuss how companies can systematically har imagination. What strategies can we use to encourage and elicit imaginative thinking in our teams?

Martin Reeves (6:43)

For some reason, imagination is seen as being some sort of magical property that's only endowed to a few gifted individuals like Steve Jobs. And it comes to them in special moments where they see clarity and they see the future. But. And we have the idea that you couldn't possibly manage this sort of very frisky capability and process. But that's rather strange in a way because we don't say in the HR department of companies, oh my God, the affairs of people are intrinsically unpredictable. We couldn't possibly manage that. Let's give up, let's just leave it to a few talented individuals using their intuition. So the idea of the imagination machine was to lay out how we could, obviously not with total predictability, but to some extent shape this process of imagination. And I think we tend to think of imagination as just the ideation step, the first step in the process. But actually it's the whole process from spark to reality. Because if you think about it, a company is an imagination machine. It takes an idea and it turns it into a reality. So it's a very special sort of machine. And the six steps or strategies, to answer your question, one of them is embracing anomalies, being curious. We know that the brain science says that imagination is driven by surprise. When we see something that doesn't fit the pattern of our existing mental model, we update our mental model. So if you don't expose yourself to that surprise, that anomaly, if you're just entirely introverted, looking only inside the company, then that doesn't work. So that's the first step. And the second one is looking differently at assumptions. Often what we think of as a fact is just an assumption, it's just a mental model. So for example, we are in the pharmaceutical business. You could look at your business that way. But actually it's an assumption. And the boundaries of the pharmaceutical business are open to dispute and reinvention. So I think it's about having alternative mental models and understanding the difference between an assumption and a fact. The third step is colliding things with reality, because most new business models fail. But when they fail, they generate anomalies, they generate sparks which further fuel the imagination process. And so a highly rational affair where you don't do anything when there's a possibility of a mistake, and you don't do anything until you've done all of your analysis, it's too reliant on the power of rationality. Reality is smarter. It has more surprises in store for us. So collide your idea with reality as soon as possible. And there's a whole discipline of experimentation and so on. The fourth one is quite hard for companies, which is to make sure that ideas spread within a company. Silos, functions, special language, tribal, jealous jargon. There's all sorts of ways which stop ideas, even good ideas, spreading within a company. So my favorite example here is the Japanese company Recruit, which I talk about a lot in the book, that actually has a culture of celebrating the spread of ideas. And the idea is that the most fun part of being a member of the company and everyone's obligation is not just to run the business, but to have ideas about how to evolve the business. And they have vast festivals of ideas where anyone can participate, anyone can propose a new idea. So that's a culture which makes ideas spread. And fifth, may sound like the opposite of imagination, which is actually codifying. Ideas start off as being very soft, very ambiguous. But to work predictably, to be industrialized, they need playbooks and often working out which of the thousand ideas are the essential details and need to be communicated to everybody is. Is a subtle exercise. So I have this idea I call evolvable scripts, which is. It's like a script for an actor. It's the things, the essential elements that you need to replicate in order to replicate the effect of an idea. And then the last one is just to repeat the cycle, which means staying humble, essentially being ready to disrupt yourself, no matter how great your previous business model was. Constantly being paranoid and humble and open to reinvention. And all of those things, of course, are about how leaders exemplify and communicate those ideas. All of these have to do with communication and modeling leadership behaviors.

Matt Abrahams (10:37)

I really appreciate, again, how you share the importance of communication in the process of imagination and creativity, just like you did with the notion of strategy. As you were mentioning these Things our listeners know that I love, alliteration, and things that can be easier to remember. So I tracked your six steps to helping organizations and individuals to be more creative and leverage the imagination machine is start with curiosity about what's going on around you. Challenge the assumptions that exist, collide with the reality to generate more sparks. And then I took a little liberty here. But this notion of contaminate, in other words, spread the information around, codify as step five so that you actually can make these repeatable, and then finally continue the effort. And so I came up with six Cs, which in my mind will help cement those ideas. And all of us can supercharge our organizations, our teams, with imagination by following those six steps. And I appreciate not only sharing the six steps, but saying how important communication the seventh C in there really is for making that happen.

Martin Reeves (11:48)

Absolutely. A key concept throughout, I think, is inspiration. Because to believe in the fiction of the better company or the better invention, it requires another seed, confidence. And. And that requires not just again, information, it requires inspiration. It requires some sort of emotional energy and belief and confidence in the possibility of a better future.

Matt Abrahams (12:08)

So I guess we could say that final ingredient is the catalyst that is inspiration. In your work on imagination, you've highlighted the importance of reframing. How can communicators use reframing as a technique to help organizations see new opportunities or solve complex problems?

Martin Reeves (12:26)

My business, the consulting business, is to a first approximation, it's problem solving. And there's a lot of complexity in the process of solving a problem. There's a lot of analysis to be done and data to be gathered. But the first question is always, what is the question? Because obviously doing all of these technical operations on the wrong question would be a waste of time. And that's where framing and reframing come in. You know, throughout my career, I've just accidentally, probably just by dint of my personality, focused on that framing step. When everybody thinks that the question is clear, let's go reduce cost by 14%. And I think it's important to say, how do we know that's the right question? Could we just pause a little and explore other ways of framing the question? Why do we think that's the right question? So asking the word why repeatedly is one way of getting a reframing. Asking what's an assumption and what's a fact? Analogies can be very useful in this respect. If we say, what is this? It opens up the possibility of seeing things differently. Boundaries is important. If we say, well, okay, we're a Pharmaceutical company. But looked at more broadly, we're actually a health company. And looked at even more broadly, we're a wellbeing company. So often broadening the boundaries of a problem permits us to see it differently. I often use constraints. I add a constraint and say, how do we think about that? If we, for instance, couldn't use that particular buzzword? Or I remove a constraint, if I say, if there were no economic constraints on this, what would be the ideal way of doing this? And it reframes by removing or making assumptions, variables. What it all boils down to, I think, is having multiple mental models, the ability to see things in different ways, and seeing that there are really two types of choice, at least two types of choice. One of them is choices within a given mental model. Within this particular construct. We are a pharmaceutical company. How do we make this better or that better? But then the bigger question of, are we really a pharmaceutical company? What do we mean by that?

Matt Abrahams (14:11)

This notion of reframing as you use it is really shaking up how we see reality. It's what's our mental model for this particular endeavor that we're working on? In the class I teach, we do a mini case where we take an auto company and walk through how reframing it is not about selling cars and trucks, but it's really about selling mobility and movement of people. And when you do that, it opens things up tremendously. So this idea of framing and reframing to uncover possible inspirations for creative solutions, and I see how these all relate, can really help. I'd like to turn our attention to your new book, like the Button that Changed the World. In the book, you provide a history of the like button and discuss the consequences of it. What sparked your interest in the Latin?

Martin Reeves (15:03)

In a way, the story of the book is related to the content of the book. So I was getting to know somebody. I often try to make myself familiar with new people, new ideas. And I was getting to know somebody in a coffee shop who was a CEO of a tech company and he was an avid hoarder. He was moving. So I said to him, you must be coming across all sorts of things in your cardboard boxes. And he said, yes. And he pulled out a notebook and it flipped open at a page where there was a sketch of a thumbs up symbol. And I looked at the date on it and it far predated Facebook's use of the like button. So I said, I said, bob, are you telling me you invented the like button? And he said, no, of course not. Maybe. And so this 30 minute conversation turned into a whole day conversation where we said, who did invent the like button? And what we found is that this incredible detective story of did this person invent it? Did this company invent it? Turned into a sort of quest and it unfolded in front of us and it was a really interesting detective story. So we said we must share this with the reader and we must write a book about this. And so this expanded because of course you can ask the question, who invented the like button? You can ask, why the thumbs up? You can ask, what were the consequences of the like button? You can ask, what's next? And so we put all of that into a book.

Matt Abrahams (16:14)

Can you share the impact of that like button in terms of what happens in our brains and in our bodies?

Martin Reeves (16:21)

Liking, it turns out the digital liking which was invented, it's a piece of code in JavaScript which signals to somebody like a reviewer that you like their review, that was invented. But it actually triggers something called the nucleus accumbens in the brain to release dopamine. And liking online is the same impact as liking in reality. And it involves the same brain chemistry in the same brain centers as being liked. So liking and being liked turns out it's the same thing. And that's the same thing as pleasurable activities like sex. It's the same thing as drug addiction. It's the same thing which triggers teenage mental health and self esteem problems with online addiction and so on. So it really has an enormous impact on the way that we, we communicate.

Matt Abrahams (17:06)

This idea that a simple act of liking, and as you said, liking means not just revealing a preference, but being like something has really impacted everything. And business leaders, working professionals need to think about it. And it's influencing how we communicate and what we communicate because we now have insight and information we didn't before.

Martin Reeves (17:29)

I think in good ways and ways we should watch out for them. It obviously compresses the attention span. As we're in an age of if Aristotle was in the world of polished long form rhetoric, we're now playing ping pong with tweets and likes. And that's useful actually. But I think it's also useful not to become the airline pilot that can't fly the computer controlled plane anymore. I think it's useful to maintain balance in our communication skills. So I personally try to communicate fractally. When I think about something I want to write, I think about the white paper. That's a bit long for most people to read. I think about the HBR article that is nice and punchy that probably a lot more people will read. I also think about the LinkedIn post, and I think about the tweets at the same time. And I regard them all as legitimate and complimentary forms of communication, and I think that's important.

Matt Abrahams (18:13)

And that notion of the fractal, I think, is a really interesting analogy for how to look at that. So, Martin, before we end, I like to ask three questions of my guests. One I create just for you, and the others are similar across all my guests. Are you ready for that?

Martin Reeves (18:26)

Sure.

Matt Abrahams (18:27)

So in your role as the head of BCG's Henderson Institute, you spend a lot of time thinking about the future. Is there a particular trend or idea that has you excited for what's coming that you can share with us?

Martin Reeves (18:43)

The reason this question is difficult for me to answer is I'm naturally interested in everything, but if I were to focus just on one of them, I would say that in a short space of time, everything in business has become intensely political. Or to put it another way, we used to think about the company as a sort of an economic island where we could think about the company just as its customers, its investors, its products, and its financials, not about the social and political context, which we assumed was basically a constant and benevolent. We can't do that anymore. So that creates ideas about strategies for contexts, including politics and strategy, which is something business is trying to figure out. And I'm trying to figure it out. So I'm very excited about that. Political strategy, geopolitical strategy, strategies of context, things like that. So I'm writing a lot about that and thinking a lot about that.

Matt Abrahams (19:30)

Context is critical in the study of communication. We have long known that context is absolutely essential to consider, and thinking about its implications for business more broadly I think is exciting, and I'm glad people like you are doing that, and I look forward to learning from you. As you explore further, let's move to question two. Who is a communicator that you admire and why?

Martin Reeves (19:52)

I do admire Aristotle simply because he wrote so much with so much clarity about communication. In rhetoric, he wrote about ethos and pathos and logos and the 13 phalluses of communication. It's hard to add anything to that. And I think in business, we're often also in the business of communication. So we have to give presentations, we have to communicate things to people, and it's dead relevant stuff. Am I appealing to ethos, pathos, or logos? And am I deploying any of the phalluses, and am I deploying them effectively? Very important stuff. So he's one favorite, let's say communication.

Matt Abrahams (20:26)

Theorist you have quoted many times today, Aristotle, and certainly a foundational figure in effective communication. Logos being facts and statistics, pathos being emotion and ethos being credibility and how those all come together. Very important for communication today, I would argue, perhaps critically important. My third and final question, what are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?

Martin Reeves (20:55)

I think I would start with listening. What do we say when we listen? Nothing. I think communication is often confused with outputting information. I think inputting information is important too. I'm not particularly good listener, but I'm a student of listening, so I think deep listening, really understanding your audience is very important. I think landing your point is important. So listening and landing your point. So to think about what is the person is trying to solve for that you're talking to and how do they process information and what appears to excite them, and making choices about how you communicate. So don't just communicate your messages in the way that you always communicate them using your favorite language and devices, but tailor it to the situation so that your points actually land. And that's often about less, right? That's often about saying of the hundred things you could have said in choose this one. And then I think in case we get too serious in the pursuit of listening and landing, I think levity plays a great role too. I think the emotional plane of communication, I think humor, I think the sizzle of a story. I think these sort of lighter elements are part of the communication process and can greatly enhance it. So I think about those three things a lot. Listening, landing, and levity.

Matt Abrahams (22:09)

You know, from earlier, I love alliteration. Not unnoticed that the person who wrote a book called like came up with three characteristics based on the letter L. Listening, landing, really making sure it's relevant to the people you're talking to, levity, bringing some humor. And you actually had a bonus in there, which is say less. We tend to say more than we need to. Martin, this has been a fantastic conversation. We covered a wide range of topics, from the role of communication and story and strategy to how we can use inspiration to blend inspiration and imagination, and then ultimately talked about the like economy and what the like button has meant for us in the past, what it means now, and where it's taking us. Thank you so much for your time and best of luck on the book.

Martin Reeves (22:54)

Thanks very much. It was a fun conversation, Matt. Fun to be here.

Matt Abrahams (22:59)

Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast to learn more about strategy and communication Please listen to episode 71 with Jesper Sorensen. This episode was produced by Ryan Campos and me, Matt Abrahams. Our music is from Floyd Wonder with special techniques. Thanks to Podium podcast company. Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. Be sure to subscribe and rate us. Also follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram and check out fastersmarterio for deep dive videos, English language learning content and our newsletter. Please consider our premium offering for extended deep thinks episodes, AMAs, Ask Matt anything and much more at fast premium.

Stanford University (23:48)

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