212. Break It to Make It: Disrupt Your Way to the Perfect Job Fit

Summary

Podcast Summary: Think Fast Talk Smart – Episode 212: "Break It to Make It: Disrupt Your Way to the Perfect Job Fit"

Introduction

In Episode 212 of Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques, host Matt Abrahams engages in a profound conversation with Whitney Johnson, a renowned thought leader, keynote speaker, executive coach, and award-winning author of Disrupt Yourself: Putting the Power of Disruptive Innovation to Work and Smart: How to Grow Your People to Grow Your Company. This episode delves into the concept of personal disruption, exploring how individuals can leverage self-innovation to achieve career fulfillment and professional growth.

Defining Personal Disruption

The conversation kicks off with Matt asking Whitney to redefine personal disruption and its significance in personal and career development.

Whitney Johnson elaborates:

"Personal disruption is a deliberate process of self-innovation. It's the decision where you've got these very thick neural pathways, these comfortable routines, these super highways of habit. And you are making the decision that you are going to rewire your brain, you're going to create these new neural pathways, you're going to step back from who you are right now into who you can be." ([02:31])

She emphasizes that unlike traditional disruption, which often targets products or services, personal disruption is about challenging and transforming oneself to reach higher levels of success and fulfillment.

Signs You're Ready for Disruption

Matt probes deeper, asking Whitney about the indicators that suggest an individual is ready to disrupt their career.

Whitney identifies several "tells" that indicate readiness for personal disruption:

"When you hear a person saying things like, 'I've paid my dues,' or 'I could do this in my sleep,' or when you're no longer slightly nervous about anything that you're doing, those are usually pretty good signs that you are in a place where you have started to get bored." ([05:20])

She compares this plateau to the "death zone" in mountain climbing, where staying too long without growth leads to stagnation and decline. Whitney adds:

"If you don't disrupt yourself and do something new, your brain and your body will literally start to die." ([05:20])

Additionally, she mentions an intangible yet powerful sign:

"When you have this feeling, and sometimes you can't really even articulate it, but you can feel deep inside of you that you were meant to do more on this planet, usually that's a sign that it's time for you to disrupt yourself." ([05:20])

Understanding the S-Curve

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the S-curve model, a framework Whitney applies to personal growth.

Whitney explains:

"The S-curve allows you to understand what growth looks like and what it feels like. There are three major parts: the launch point, the sweet spot, and mastery." ([07:48])

1. Launch Point: This is where individuals embark on something new, often feeling excited yet terrified and frustrated. Dopamine levels drop, leading to feelings of doubt and discomfort. Whitney advises:

   "When you're disrupting yourself, it is uncomfortable because you're stepping out of who you are into who you can be." ([04:41])

2. Sweet Spot: After persisting through the initial discomfort, individuals enter a phase where growth accelerates, and their efforts begin to pay off. Dopamine spikes again, bringing a sense of exhilaration and alignment.

3. Mastery: Reaching the top of the S-curve brings mastery and competence. However, it also introduces a sense of boredom or complacency, signaling that it's time to embark on a new curve of growth.

Whitney underscores the importance of recognizing one's position on the S-curve to navigate the process of personal disruption effectively.

Handling Discomfort and Embracing the Uncomfortable

Matt seeks Whitney’s advice on managing the inherent discomfort that comes with personal disruption.

Whitney suggests several strategies:

1. Acknowledge the Launch Point:

   "When you're feeling really uncomfortable, I'm like, 'You're just at the launch point of the curve. It's going to get easier.'" ([07:48])

2. Leverage Loss Aversion Theory:

   "We are 2.2 times more motivated by what we'll lose than by what we'll gain. So sometimes you can motivate yourself to do something new by saying, 'What bad thing is going to happen?'" ([07:48])

3. Connect to a Deeper Purpose:

   "Remind yourself why you are doing this. Allow yourself to connect to a deeper sense of purpose. That's going to help you overcome fear." ([07:48])

By integrating these tactics, individuals can better navigate the challenges of stepping out of their comfort zones and sustain their efforts toward growth.

Envisioning Your Future Self and Career

Matt inquires about practices that help individuals creatively envision their potential future selves and careers.

Whitney emphasizes the importance of understanding and valuing one's strengths:

"Start with your strengths, but it's much more difficult than it seems. Sometimes you actually reject them because they're so easy for you." ([13:04])

She advises:

1. Identify Strengths Through Feedback:

   "Look at what compliments people give you to start identifying your strengths." ([13:04])

2. Embrace and Own Your Strengths:

   "Value your strengths and own them. That's where you're going to be able to do really great work." ([13:04])

Additionally, Whitney introduces the concept of Action Boards (inspired by Tara Swart), which are similar to vision boards but focus on actionable and professional aspirations:

"Action boards allow ourselves to explore a little bit more about what we might do differently by pulling up photos, pictures, images of things that might be interesting to you professionally." ([13:04])

These practices help individuals visualize and align their career paths with their strengths and interests, facilitating informed disruptions.

Ensuring Fulfillment During Disruption

Matt raises a crucial point about the uncertainty of disruption leading to unfulfilling outcomes and seeks Whitney's insights on increasing the likelihood of success.

Whitney outlines key strategies to ensure fulfillment:

1. Experimentation:

   "You're pointing yourself in the direction of success simply by being willing to experiment." ([17:13])

2. Achievability Assessment:

   "Ask yourself, do I think this thing is achievable? Do I believe that I can get to the point where I believe that I can do it?" ([17:13])

3. Familiar Yet Novel Challenges:

   "Is this familiar yet novel? There's enough familiarity and some novelty to make it feel doable and aligned with something that makes sense for you." ([17:13])

4. Alignment with Values:

   "Does this align with my values? Sometimes disrupting yourself means changing your value system to match who you aspire to be." ([17:13])

5. Iterative Process and Grace:

   "Allow yourself to give grace. Recognize that you're creating new pathways and it's hard work." ([17:13])

6. Support Systems:

   "There are people in your life who love you and care about you, and they're going to encourage you." ([17:13])

These steps collectively help individuals navigate the uncertainties of personal disruption, steering them toward more fulfilling and successful career transformations.

Career Advice from Whitney Johnson

As the conversation approaches its conclusion, Matt poses two final career-related questions to Whitney.

1. Best Career Advice Received:

   Whitney shares a transformative experience from her early career on Wall Street:

   "They said to me, 'Whitney, we think you'd be really good at this.' And so I'm thinking about when people say to us, 'I think you'd be really good at this,' and we find ourselves rejecting it. Just stop and stay with it a little bit longer." ([21:11])

   She highlights the importance of being open to feedback and opportunities, even when initial resistance is felt.

2. One Thing She'd Manage Differently:

   Whitney reflects on embracing discomfort earlier in her career:

   "I wish that I would have, at a much, much younger age, seen that discomfort is not a bug, but a feature. Recognize that being in a place of discomfort is a signal of impending growth." ([22:57])

   This insight reinforces the podcast's overarching theme that discomfort is a natural and crucial component of personal and professional development.

Conclusion

Matt Abrahams wraps up the episode by reiterating the value of Whitney Johnson's insights on personal disruption. He emphasizes the importance of recognizing when it's time to disrupt, handling the associated discomfort, and strategically navigating career transitions to achieve fulfillment and growth.

Whitney reciprocates the appreciation, acknowledging the depth and practicality of their conversation. The episode serves as a comprehensive guide for listeners aiming to harness personal disruption as a catalyst for achieving their ideal job fit and career satisfaction.

Key Takeaways:

• Personal Disruption: A deliberate self-innovation process aimed at rewiring habits and routines to achieve greater success.

• Signs of Readiness: Feeling overly comfortable, lack of recent learning, and a deep-seated sense of purpose indicate the need for disruption.

• S-Curve Model: Understanding the stages of growth helps navigate personal disruption effectively.

• Handling Discomfort: Embrace initial discomfort as a sign of growth, use loss aversion to motivate, and connect to a deeper purpose.

• Envisioning Future Self: Identify and own your strengths, use action boards to visualize goals, and align career paths with personal strengths.

• Ensuring Fulfillment: Experiment, assess achievability, ensure alignment with values, embrace the iterative process, and seek support.

• Career Advice: Stay open to opportunities recommended by others and recognize discomfort as an indicator of growth.

This episode is an invaluable resource for individuals seeking to transform their careers through intentional self-disruption, offering actionable strategies and profound insights from one of the leading voices in personal innovation.

Transcript

[Matt Abrahams]

Before we get started, I'm excited to share that our June newsletter is now available. Not only does it contain our new book reading list for the first part of 2025, but it also has an expert article on how to participate in and moderate panels. You can find our newsletter on LinkedIn or at faster, smarter IO under resources.

Mastery can be motivational. When you know something so well, it could be a signal that it's time to change and disrupt yourself. My name is Matt Abrahams. I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. Today I'm excited to once again be joined by Whitney Johnson and Whitney joined me for episode 147.

As a reminder, Whitney is a globally.

Recognized thought leader, keynote speaker and executive coach. Whitney is also the award winning author of Disrupt Yourself Putting the power of Disruptive Innovation to work and Smart how to grow your people to grow your company. Finally, Whitney hosts the aptly named podcast Disrupt Yourself. I was fortunate to be a guest on her show and we had a great conversation as we do here. Welcome Whitney. I loved our prior conversation where we talked extensively about how to use disruption to further our careers and our goals. Thanks so much for being here.

[Whitney Johnson]

Happy to be here.

[Matt Abrahams]

Excellent. Shall we get started?

[Whitney Johnson]

Let's do it.

[Matt Abrahams]

We'll be right back in just a.

Moment, but first a quick word from our sponsors.

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Edu. All right, so as a reminder to those listening in, can you redefine for us what you mean by personal disruption for personal growth and share how this type of disruption can really set our careers into flight?

[Whitney Johnson]

Most of us are familiar with the word disruption. We've heard it something that Clayton Christensen wrote. It was this disruptive innovation and we typically apply it to products and services and companies and countries. But I had this aha as I was working with him that disruption wasn't just all those things. It was actually about people, that you could in fact disrupt yourself. And but the big difference with personal disruption is whereas with every other kind of disruption, you are disrupting something else. So for example, ChatGPT is disrupting the copywriter that's writing your email. In this particular case, you are disrupting you. You are both the silly little thing and you're taking over the world. And so when I think about personal disruption, what it really is is a deliberate process of self, self innovation. It's the decision where you've got these very thick neural pathways, these comfortable routines, these super highways of habit. And you are making the decision that you are going to rewire your brain, you're going to create these new neural pathways, you're going to step back from who you are right now into who you can be. And that's what you do when you disrupt yourself. But it is uncomfortable because if you think about your life on this graph paper of existence, when you're disrupting yourself, you may be on the Y axis of success at a 12. And disrupting yourself by definition means you go down that Y axis of success to a 10 or a 9. But the reason you do it, the payoff is that you believe that right now your life may be over one up one over one up one. And it might be perfectly fine. But what you really want, what you believe when you disrupt yourself is that your life will now be over 1 up to or over 1 up for that, the slope of your line, the slope of your life will improve. And so that's why you disrupt yourself.

[Matt Abrahams]

Thank you for that very clear definition. And I love this notion of this super highway of habit. And really disruption is about getting off the highway and changing something. And that change comes with at least perhaps a short term cost, but it has potential for just really a bunch of long term benefit. I want to dig a little deeper. What are some of the signs that we're ready for disruption? You know, many of us can just be really content and comfortable in our careers. Are there certain signs you look for in the coaching and in the work you do to really encourage people to say, hey, this is now some time for disruption? Or at least considering that there are.

[Whitney Johnson]

Some really specific tells. When you hear a person saying things like, I've paid my dues, I could do this in my sleep? When you're no longer slightly nervous about anything that you're doing, when you haven't learned anything recently, when you find yourself saying to your colleagues, that's just how we do things here, those are usually pretty Good signs that you are in a place where you have started to get bored. And because you are at what I call the top of an S curve, you've reached this mountain peak. You're no longer learning, you're no longer getting dopamine. And mountain climbers will tell you that Any altitude above 26,000ft is known as the death zone. You're so high up, your brain and body literally start to die. When you get to this place where you're saying things like, I've paid my dues, or I could dial it in, you are so high up, you're stagnating in such a way that if you don't disrupt yourself and do something new, your brain and your body will literally start to die. And I guess there's one other tell that I would say is that when you have this feeling, and sometimes you can't really even articulate it, but you can feel deep inside of you that you were meant to do more on this planet, usually that's a sign that it's time for you to disrupt yourself. And if you don't, if you don't listen to it, you may start underperforming or, or in some cases, you will get pushed, you will be disrupted, because the universe will give you a nudge, because growth is our default setting. And if you won't do it for yourself, the universe will give you that opportunity for you to continue to grow.

[Matt Abrahams]

Growth is our default setting. I really like that. I think in many cases, in reflecting on my own life, there have been times where I guess I've worked against the default, and then I've become very unhappy or complacent. And I really appreciate the very specific things that you itemize. I. I reflect back on a job I had, and I said to myself, I know how to do this. I can do this in my sleep. And within two months, I. I was looking for new work. I'd love for you one to. To briefly summarize the S curve, because I know that's really important for the work you do. And then second, disrupting ourselves can be uncomfortable by definition. Right? We're moving out of our comfort zone. So if you have some advice and guidance on how to feel comfortable with the uncomfortable.

[Whitney Johnson]

I had the privilege of working with Clayton Christensen and investing for several years. And so I applied this idea of disruption to individuals. But we also, in our investing, we're using the S curve. And that was popularized 60 years by Everett Rogers, and he used it to understand how do groups change over time. But I'VE noticed a trend in myself. I like to apply management theories to individuals, and that's what happened with the S curve. And so very simply, what it does is it allows you to understand what growth looks like and what it feels like. And there are three major parts. There's the launch point of the S curve, and this is the place where your brain is running a predictive model of what is it going to take for me to get to the top of that curve. Most of your predictions are inaccurate. And so dopamine, the chemical messenger of delight, it actually drops. So the experience that you can have when you do something new is you can feel excited, but also terrified and frustrated and discouraged and impatient to the point that you may find yourself saying, this was a bad idea. I shouldn't have done this. I shouldn't have tried. No, that's not necessarily the case. What's probably the case is that you're doing something new and you're uncomfortable and your brain is really struggling and. And in fact, the situation is normal. So that's the launch point of the curve, the dopamine dropping. But then you put in the effort. You tip into the sweet spot, and you go into that steep part of the curve. And this is where you have these emotional upside surprises. Your dopamine starts to spike. It's hard, but not too hard. It's easy, but not too easy. You feel exhilarated, and you feel like you're exactly where you're supposed to be. This is not the time when people look for new jobs, because everything is working, but then there's mastery. And that's what we've been talking about. You get to the top of the curve, you're at the top of the mountain. You really like to be master of all that you survey. And yet there's something built into your psyche that says, I like being here, but if I stay here, I'll stop growing. So it's a place of mastery in the sense that you've done what you came to do. So now you've got a little bit of dopamine, but not a lot, but you're bored. So at the launch point, growth feels slow, but it's fast. In the sweet spot, growth is fast and it feels fast. And in mastery, growth is, in fact, slow. And by understanding all of that, it helps you navigate the process of growth. So to your question that you started to ask of, well, how do I do this? How do I disrupt myself? One of the things that I use all the time is that when I do new things and I'm feeling really uncomfortable. I'm like, Whitney, you're just at the launch point of the curve. It's going to get easier. You made the decision that you wanted to be here. You're confident that this is the place that you need to be. So now just stay with this discomfort because it will get easier. So that's a launch point. Strategy or tactic. Another thing to think about is that when you're in mastery and you think, I don't know that I want to jump, I'm really scared this is going to be hard to do something new. I employ loss aversion theory. So we all know Daniel Kahneman, Amos Tversky. They talked about the loss aversion theory. And I use it in this way. We sometimes try to motivate ourselves by saying, you know what if I do this new thing, it's going to be so amazing. But we're 2.2 times more motivated by what we'll lose than by what we'll gain. So sometimes you can motivate yourself to do something new by saying, what bad thing is going to happen? Like, I'll start to underperform and I might lose my job if I'm not willing to jump. And I think the third thing that I would say is to remind yourself, why are you doing this? Allow yourself to connect to a deeper sense of purpose. Because if you can be in that deeper sense of purpose, that's going to help you overcome fear. It's going to help you keep going when it's fun, but it's also going to help you be willing to do something new when you're feeling a little bit complacent.

[Matt Abrahams]

I really appreciate that explanation. Launch sweetpie Mastery and how mastery is actually motivational to move beyond. And you answered the other question I asked, which was how do you handle the discomfort and concern? And it sounds like what I heard you say is one recognize that it's totally normal and natural, especially depending on where you are in the curve. And if you can have a deeper purpose that's driving you, that it can help push you beyond some of the. The hesitation and concern that comes. It strikes me that part of disrupting yourself is to have at least an inkling, maybe even more, about what your potential new career or new way of being looks like. What practices can individuals engage in to help them creatively envision this potential future self and potential future career? What are things that we can do to help us do that that will ultimately help us search for the jobs we want to search for that, we need to search for and develop ourselves professionally to be prepared for that.

[Whitney Johnson]

I think an important starting point is to really be aware of what our strengths are. And that could come across as being very glib and very cliche. But, in fact, to start with your strengths is much more difficult than it seems. There are a number of reasons for this. Number one is that because our strengths are something that we do so well and so reflexively, and so naturally, we're oftentimes not aware of what our strengths actually are. So that's the first thing. And if you look at what compliments people give you, you're gonna be able to start to identify what your strengths are. That's the first piece, but then there's a second piece to this is that even when you know what your strengths are, sometimes you actually reject them because they're so easy for you. They're so reflexive, you don't think they're actually valuable. And it might even be that over time, people have attached or affixed a label to you around that strength so that you feel like there's this reductionist. Like, when I was growing up, I played the piano, and people would be like, oh, well, that's Whitney. She's good at the piano. I came to reject that compliment, reject that strength, because I didn't want to be solely defined by this thing that everybody said that I was good at. And yet, by rejecting that or any other strength that we have, then we're not doing something that is a natural gift that we have. And only, I believe, can we make an idiosyncratic contribution in the world. If, number one, we know what our strengths are. Number two, we value our strengths, and number three, we own those strengths. And so I think I would really encourage people to start there as they're trying to figure out what they might want to do. Now, beyond that, I'll give you two other thoughts. I think it's very interesting, and you may have seen the work of Tara Swart. She talks about action boards, not vision boards, but action boards, and pulling up photos, pictures, images of things that might be interesting to you professionally. And the reason that's so important is that oftentimes when we think about things that we might do, our conscious mind immediately says, oh, I couldn't do that. Oh, I couldn't do that. And if we start to have those images or those visions, it bypasses our conscious mind and allows ourselves to just explore a little bit more about what we might do differently. So those are the two thoughts that I would suggest is to look at the images that kind of draw you in, that you find yourself curious about. And then importantly, really get to the point where you identify, you value, you own your strengths, because that's going to be a place where you're going to be able to do really great work.

[Matt Abrahams]

That's, I think, really good advice. Really understanding what it is you want in a visceral sense, what it looks like can be very motivating and can help you focus and then really understanding your strengths in honoring those strengths and respecting those strengths instead of rejecting them. And with that in mind, once you have some of that information, then I think you can start doing exploration, have some informational interviews, check out tools like LinkedIn and look at people's career paths who have similar interests. Spend some time checking out writings, podcasts, other things that people who have done what you're interested in doing have done so you can get a good sense of what it looks like jumping from one curve to a next. And I think that's really helpful. So thank you for that. So we started by talking about this notion of fulfillment and purpose. I'm wondering if, as we come to an end, you can help give us some insights into some of the steps that help ensure as best you can. I know there's no guarantee that when you're disrupting your career, disrupting your life, what are some things you can do strategically and perhaps even tactically to increase that fulfillment? Because it's possible that disruption could go the other way. Right. It might not lead to something that's more fulfilling. Have you found best practice practices or things people do that help ensure or at least point in the direction of success?

[Whitney Johnson]

I think there are. There are two aspects to this. So first of all, I think you point yourself in the direction of success when you're simply willing to experiment. And going back to that statement earlier, of growth is our default setting, we're wired to grow. So you're pointing yourself in that direction simply by experimenting. I do think that there are two things that I think about, but then I'll go to, I think what's actually where. Your question is to ask yourself, do I think that this thing is achievable? And not do I believe I can do it, but do I believe that I can get to the point where I believe that I can do it, which I think is important. So there's a little bit of that leap of faith that you're going to take in order to do it. I think there's also a question that you can Ask yourself, is, is this familiar yet novel? So there's enough familiarities. There's some research that's done around, you know, you want 85 to 90% familiar and then 10 to 15% novel. So that's going to create these parameters where it's going to feel doable and probably aligned with something that makes sense for you. But I think that the biggest piece is to ask yourself, does this align with my values? And sometimes it's going to align with your current set of values. But sometimes disrupting yourself is about, you've made the decision that you want to change your value system, and so will doing that align with the values of who I want to be, who I aspire to be, and what does that need to look like in order for that to be possible? And then the thing that I'm just thinking as we're talking about this is to recognize that this is very much an iterative process. This is discovery driven. I talked earlier about this idea of building those new neural pathways when you're doing something new. It is not a super highway of habit. You have basically put yourself into a jungle and you're creating a cow path with a machete. And that's going to be hard work and it's going to be uncomfortable and you're not going to know what you're doing. And so allow yourself, as you're trying to find your purpose and figure out if this is the right direction for you, is to give yourself some grace. And the last thing I would say is there are going to be people in your life who love you and care about you, and they're going to be able to say to you, that makes sense for you to do. I know it's hard right now, but keep going.

[Matt Abrahams]

That support can be so important in all of this. It really resonated with me when you talked about the success and feeling fulfilled in our careers, in our life, the way we judge that might change because the value system that we have, as we move through that disruption towards whatever that change in career is, will change as well. And we had Dori Clark, who I know you're familiar with, and she echoes what you talked about. This being a time of discovery. She talks about it in terms of hypotheses and discovery. Hypotheses, experimentation, are all really talking about the same thing. This is a time of flux, but it's flux with a foundation of purpose and direction.

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So, Whitney, before we end, I'd like to ask you two questions about careers. Are you up for that?

[Whitney Johnson]

I am. Absolutely.

[Matt Abrahams]

All right, question number one. What is the best career advice you ever received and why?

[Whitney Johnson]

As I think about this question, it's actually causing me to do a reframe. So early in my career, I had a situation where I was working on Wall Street. My boss had just gotten fired. They probably would have fired me too, but I had good performance reviews. I was pregnant, so that was a good insurance policy. And I had this experience of feeling like they shoved me into equity research, like they disrupted me into this job that I did not want. But as I think about that job, it was a time of tremendous growth technically, from a leadership perspective, from a personal perspective, and it turned out to be a career maker. And the reason that I am drawing on this as the best career advice is that they said to me, whitney, we think you'd be really good at this. And so I'm thinking about when people say to us, I think you'd be really good at this, and we find ourselves rejecting it. Just stop and stay with it a little bit longer. Try to dispense with all the baggage that might be attached to why you can't hear it. And when someone holds up that mirror and says, I think you'd be good at this, be willing to listen and consider it deeply and thoughtfully.

[Matt Abrahams]

I've had a similar experience where somebody said, I think you'll be good at this, and I resisted it. It turned out that they were absolutely right and it fundamentally changed my career trajectory as a result of that. Thank you for sharing that final question. What is one thing you wish you would have done differently in the way you've managed your career?

[Whitney Johnson]

I wish that I would have, at a much, much younger age, seen that discomfort is not a bug, but a feature. I wish I could have understood that so that when I'm in this place of being really uncomfortable and un awkward and not knowing what I'm doing, to recognize that this is simply a signal of encouragement that I'm in a place where I'm about to grow.

[Matt Abrahams]

The discomfort is actually a signal and it's a signal that good things are ahead. Whitney, Good things are behind us based on this interview, and I know they're ahead of us as you and I continue to collaborate, but as everybody listening in can benefit from what you said, this idea of disruption and looking for that change, how mastery can be motivational and the things we can do to handle the discomfort and the ambiguity that come with it. So useful and so helpful and a true pleasure to revisit this conversation with you and to learn from you. Thank you so much.

[Whitney Johnson]

Likewise. Thank you. Matt.

[Matt Abrahams]

Thank you for joining us for this episode of Think Fast Talk Smart.

This episode was produced by Ryan Campos, H. Ash and me, Matt Abrahams.

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