228. Negotiate Your Way to Success: Empathy, Mirroring, and Labeling

Summary

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Episode Overview

Podcast: Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques
Host: Matt Abrahams
Guest: Chris Voss, former FBI lead international kidnapping and hostage negotiator, CEO of The Black Swan Group, co-author of "Never Split the Difference"
Episode: 228 – “Negotiate Your Way to Success: Empathy, Mirroring, and Labeling”
Date: September 9, 2025

This episode explores practical negotiation and communication techniques from high-pressure environments, focusing on tools like empathy, mirroring, and labeling. Chris Voss shares his unique insights drawn from FBI hostage negotiations, applicable to everyday and business situations, illustrating how emotional intelligence, careful listening, and tone can lead to more successful outcomes in any conversation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Chris Voss's Path to Negotiation Mastery

• Origins in Crisis Work: Chris started on a suicide hotline in NYC, considering it the best preparation for high-stakes negotiation ([03:00]).
  • "When I specifically began to train for it was when I volunteered on a crisis suicide hotline in New York City. I was told the best preparation was to volunteer on a suicide hotline." – Chris Voss [03:00]
• Training at Quantico: Attending the FBI's negotiation school, then continuous self-driven learning.

The Power of Emotional Intelligence

• Accelerating Outcomes Through Empathy:
  • Chris observed empathy could accelerate outcomes "14 times faster" in both crisis and everyday situations ([03:55]).
  • "Emotional intelligence is an insane accelerator to outcomes... the application of empathy accelerates you to wherever you're going to go, 14 times faster." – Chris Voss [03:55]
• Reflective Listening: Derived from Carl Rogers’ psychology, first encountered as "reflective listening" and foundational to all future work ([03:55]).

Staying Calm Under Pressure

• Skill Comes from Practice: Early hotline work put Chris on live calls with direct feedback; daily practice is essential ([05:10]).
  • "Anything that looks easy, that somebody makes look easy, they put a lot of time into." – Chris Voss [05:10]
  • "I gotta practice these skills today. It's not bike riding. I gotta practice every day or my skills deteriorate." – Chris Voss [06:11]
• Preparation Rituals: Chris uses gratitude exercises and relies on a practiced process; trusts his skills and lets outcomes unfold ([06:40]).

Pattern Recognition & Managing Overthinking

• Trusting Instincts: Decision-making in the moment is about trusting the subconscious “pattern recognition” abilities ([07:46]).
  • "Your gut does the pattern recognition. It’s not a conscious process." – Chris Voss [07:46]
• Overcoming Overthinking:
  • Referencing Ed Catmull's insight that overthinkers make mistakes at the same rate—just more slowly ([08:11]).
  • “The overthinkers make mistakes at the same rate as the people that are quick to pull the trigger. It just takes them longer...” – Chris Voss [08:11]

Adapting in Unpredictable Scenarios

• The Fallacy of One Course: In negotiation, there’s rarely a single path—flexibility is vital ([09:21]).
  • “The first thing is to realize there is no course. If you only imagine there's one course, then you're going to stick to it when all the data is telling you you're wrong.” – Chris Voss [09:21]
• Openness to Better Outcomes:
  • “Never be so sure of what you want that you wouldn’t take something better. If you can maintain that flexibility in a moment, then you’re going to do really well.” – Chris Voss [09:21]

Rules for Communication in Negotiation

• Listening is Winning:
  • “He or she who talks most loses; if you’re explaining, you’re losing. You should probably be listening five times more when you’re talking.” – Chris Voss [10:22]
• Impact of What’s Unsaid: Words and silence both shape the negotiation ([10:32]).

Deep Dive: Mirroring and Labeling

• Mirroring: Repeat the last (1-3) words your counterpart said; prompts explanation and deepens dialogue ([11:04]).
  • "Mirroring is a delightful skill, which is repeating generally the last one to three-ish words of what somebody has said.... the other side will talk for 10 minutes." – Chris Voss [11:08]
• Labeling: Name an emotion or dynamic introduced by the other side, delivered neutrally ([11:00]).
  • Example: “It sounds like you’re telling me you’re incompetent.” (Delivered with upward inflection, not accusation.)
  • “The important thing about a label is it's gotta be a dynamic the other side introduces. You cannot introduce it, then it's fair game.” – Chris Voss [12:26]

The Crucial Role of Tone

• Tone Shapes Message Impact:
  • Analogy: Tone is like the spin on a bullet; the same words can have entirely different effects based on delivery ([13:18]).
  • “Tone is like the rifling on a bullet… For your words to hit the target... The same words, right? Land a thousand percent different.” – Chris Voss [13:18]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On everyday empathy:
  “If this is this effective with people in crisis, why doesn’t everybody in my life deserve it?... I started applying it on everything that I did.” – Chris Voss [03:55]

• On confidence in the process:
  “You know, I don’t know sure how this is going to come out, but the best outcome is if I just follow the process that I know.” – Chris Voss [06:40]

• On pace in conversation:
  "There’s so much of an advantage while you’re speaking to slow down a little, you know, let the moment play out... If you slow down to be more connected with somebody in the moment, to hear them, to make them feel heard... you give yourself time to analyze in the moment, you’re going to be a much better communicator." – Chris Voss [16:54]

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Rapid-Fire Q&A: Chris Voss's Spontaneous Communication Advice ([16:15]–[19:12])

• Communicator Chris Admires: Katie Couric – for her ability to handle volatile personalities but maintain relationships ([16:22]).

• Advice for Speaking in the Moment:

  • “Just take your time... slowing the conversation down so you can absorb more information, so you can be more in the moment...” ([16:54])

• Homework for Matt (and listeners):

  • Use “Seems like you have a reason for saying that” in all conversations for a day to open up dialogue and surface deeper reasoning ([18:15]).
  • “You spend a day doing that, you are going to have four or five conversations. Just the vast majority of them are going to open up in ways you didn’t imagine possible.” – Chris Voss [18:57]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [03:00] – Chris Voss’s background: suicide hotline & FBI training
• [03:55] – Importance of empathy and reflective listening
• [05:10] – Practice and preparation in high-pressure situations
• [07:46] – Pattern recognition and trusting your gut
• [08:11] – Overthinking vs. action (Ed Catmull analogy)
• [09:21] – Adapting when things don’t go as planned
• [10:22] – “He or she who talks most loses”
• [11:04] – Detailed explanation: Mirroring and labeling
• [13:18] – Analogy: Tone as the “spin” on a bullet
• [16:22] – Communicator Voss admires: Katie Couric
• [16:54] – Advice: Take your time, slow down
• [18:15] – “Seems like you have a reason for saying that”: communication exercise

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Episode Takeaways

• Empathy and emotional intelligence are accelerators for both resolving crisis and improving ordinary negotiations.
• Mirroring and labeling, when delivered thoughtfully and with the right tone, can unlock more honest exchanges and better outcomes.
• Routine practice, slowing down, and flexibly adjusting your approach are the keys to mastering spontaneous, high-stakes communication.
• Even outside life-or-death situations, taking a beat and inviting others to elaborate (“Seems like you have a reason for saying that”) can transform the quality of conversations and relationships.

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Transcript

[A]

Hi Matt here. I am super excited to announce our next live event. Join the Think Fast Talk Smart community for a new live recording. The event is on September 16th at 8am Pacific. I'll deliver a short talk called Listen up followed by a live Q and A from our global audience. A few premium members will have the opportunity to ask me their questions on video in real time and all registered participants could submit questions online during the live event. Don't miss this opportunity to be part of this amazing live Ask Matt anything on September 16th at 8am Pacific. Be sure to sign up on LinkedIn, YouTube or FasterSmarter IO live. We spend about a third of our waking hours working, but so many people feel stuck in their jobs they've outgrown. I've heard it all. What if the next move is even worse? I. I can't afford to take the wrong step. Who am I without the title I have? These feelings are real, but they're also why so many people feel stuck. That's where today's sponsor, Strawberry Me comes in. They connect you with a certified career coach who helps you go from where you are to where you actually want to be. It's like therapy for your career. A coach helps you cut through the noise, define your next move, and turn vague goals into a real world plan with accountability that keeps you moving forward. Own your future with a coach in your corner. Go to Strawberry Me Smart to claim your $50 credit and get started. That's Strawberry Me Smart. Stop settling. Start building the career you actually want. While most communication situations are not life and death, sometimes they can be. We can all learn to handle the.

[B]

Pressure when under the gun.

[A]

My name is Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. As part of our four part miniseries on spontaneous speaking, we introduced you to a number of coaches whose jobs require successful in the moment communication. So many of our listeners found value in our coach's advice that we wanted to provide you with an opportunity to to hear our complete interviews. So today I'm excited for you to learn from Chris Voss. Chris is a former FBI lead, international kidnapping and hostage negotiator. He is the CEO of the Black Swan Group and co author of Never Split the Negotiating as if youf Life Depended On It. Let's jump right in and learn from Chris.

[C]

Chris, welcome. I look forward to our conversation.

[D]

Thank you. Yeah, so do I. Let's. Let's go on an exploration here.

[C]

All right, so for over 20 years you were a lead FBI hostage Negotiator. What trainings and experience led you into that role?

[D]

When I specifically began to train for it was when I volunteered on a crisis suicide hotline in New York City. I was told the best preparation was to volunteer on a suicide hotline. And as it turned out, after that was the case, and then after that, you go to the FBI's two week school at Quantico. If you're a hostage negotiator anywhere on Earth, the training at Quantico is one of the trainings you want to go to. And I loved it. And I stayed volunteering on the crisis hotline for a couple more years after that. And I did a lot of teaching, but a lot of it is then self directed and recognized that it's a perishable skill and not letting it perish.

[C]

What were one or two of the key things you learned from the work you did with the suicide hotline and maybe even Quantico? What were a couple of the skills they taught you that you think were invaluable to the role you have?

[D]

What I learned was emotional intelligence is an insane accelerator to outcomes. We speculate that the application of empathy accelerates you to wherever you're going to go, 14 times faster. Hmm. And I kind of got an inkling of that on suicide hotline when they first said there's a 20 minute time limit on all calls. Like, you gotta be kidding me. There are anecdotal stories all the time of people being on a phone overnight, staying up all night, trying to talk people out of kidding themselves. How can you do this in 20 minutes? And they said, well, as a matter of fact, if you're doing it right, it won't take that long. And that ended up being the case. And, you know, I learned emotional intelligence. They called it reflective listening at the time. This is early 1990s. It's derivative of a psychologist named Carl Rogers. But I remember using it on the hotline thinking, like, if this is this effective with people in crisis, why doesn't everybody in my life deserve it? Why don't my family, my friends, my colleagues, people I arrest, deserve empathy as an FBI agent? And in point of fact, I started applying it on everything that I did.

[C]

You know, you've negotiated in incredibly high pressure situations where life is on the line. How do you stay calm and collected?

[D]

You know, anything that looks easy, that somebody makes look easy, they put a lot of time into. Now I really started on the suicide hotline. They would put us on alliance while we were still in training. About halfway through training they taught us enough to put us on a line, supervised. There's somebody right there. Take the phone out of your hand. If you start saying stupid stuff to the person on the other hand, which is entirely possible because advice is usually counterproductive, it short circuits their thinking process. So the first time that I was on the line, I remember saying, hello, this is helpline, just like that. And a supervisor said, you tone of voice is great. That was great. And so I thought, okay, well I got to repeat that. You break it down into small pieces, you practice it live, and then you practice it in small stakes interactions. I mean, I got to practice these skills today. It's not bike riding. I got to practice every day or my skills deteriorate.

[C]

So it's the notion of practice and finding opportunities that are low stakes to really work on that and to keep those skills fresh. And it sounds like at least early on you had a direct mentor sitting there giving you feedback and advice as you went. And that's, that's also important, I believe. Before you go into a negotiation or a high stakes situation like that, do you do anything to prepare yourself? Do you do some deep breathing, some centering? What, what do you do to prepare when you walk into one of these situations?

[D]

I do a sort of daily prep because I never know when a high pressure situation is going to come at me. So the cliches, the gratitude exercise first thing in the morning, the phraseology that, you know, this is happening for me, not to me, calms you down in the moment. You gotta practice that. When I was on a, as a hostage negotiator, I had just relied on the process so much that I was good. You know, I don't know sure how this is going to come out, but the best outcome is if I just follow the process that I know. You know, use the skills and let it go where it may.

[C]

So it sounds like there was a bit of a ritual to your practice. It sounds like you continue that practice, but it's really about relying on what you have done and know that you can get through it.

[A]

When you're under pressure, how do you.

[C]

Quickly gather information and adjust your approach? I mean, you constantly must be reading the circumstances and then making adjustments. Do you have things you use to help you make those decisions? Are you using some kind of pattern recognition?

[D]

Your gut does the pattern recognition. It's not a conscious process. So when you get to the point where you can lean back enough to let your gut kick in, then you're going to be fine.

[C]

Many of us in These high stakes situations, clearly different than the high stakes situations you've lived through. We get in our head and we overthink. Do you have ways that help you turn down that volume of overthinking?

[D]

I'm reading Creativity Inc. By Ed Catmull, the guy who founded Pixar, and he says, you know, the overthinkers make mistakes at the same rate as the people that are quick to pull the trigger. It just takes them longer to make the mistakes because they're overthinking it. And I thought that makes all the sense in the world. The entrepreneurial organizations who are really operating on gut instinct, they say, you know, make the mistake now, gather the data, fail fast, move forward. You see it over and over and over again. And it never even occurred to me that the overthinkers would not be any more effective than equipped to pull the trigger. It would just take them longer. And that insight in Ed's book just really sort of opened my eyes to the dangers, the perils of overthinking.

[C]

Let's talk a little bit more about that. When things don't go as you expected them to go in the moment, are there ways in which you quickly adjust and adapt, or do you just stay the course and keep things going forward even if it didn't happen or occur the way you wanted it to? What do you do when things don't go the way you planned?

[D]

The first thing is to realize there is no course. If you only imagine there's one course, then you're going to stick to it when all the data is telling you you're wrong. So in kidnap negotiations, I'd show up at an embassy and they'd say, how's this going to work out? It's going to work out one of five ways, and we got to go along for the ride, see which one it is. You know, that would keep me from getting married to a course. So to recognize that it's your desire to want to think of one path, you're already limiting yourself, because never be so sure of what you want that you wouldn't take something better. If you can maintain that flexibility in a moment, then you're going to do really well.

[C]

I think that is such important advice and insight that there is no one right way. There are many ways, and staying open and agile and curious is what allows you to adjust and adapt as things happen.

[D]

Amen.

[C]

What rules or guidelines do you follow in your messaging when you communicate in negotiations?

[D]

Yeah, general terms, you know, he or she who talks most loses if you're explaining, you're losing. You should probably be listening five times more when you're talking.

[C]

Right. And it's really about the understanding that what you are saying or not saying has an impact in that moment on what's going on. I'd like to get into, if you don't mind, sharing some more detail about two specific skills that you mentioned earlier. You mentioned labeling and you mentioned mirroring. Would you mind taking a moment to just share what each of those skills are and the value they bring to you in the work that you do?

[D]

The value of brain.

[C]

Yeah, the value of labeling and of mirroring.

[D]

All right, so I just married you.

[C]

And I for it.

[D]

Well, because it feels natural. Mirroring is a delightful skill, which is repeating generally the last one to three ish words of what somebody has said. It could be one word. It really shouldn't be more than five. And it's just repeating them word for word. And in any given communication, and you touched on it a little bit before, you know what's said, what's unsaid. And the other side, what they hear is, oh, okay, he got what I wanted to say, but he needs a fuller explanation. And so you're drawn to it and you give fuller explanations. It's actually much more effective than saying to somebody, what did you mean by that? It doesn't require a lot of mental energy. The return of investment of what you said versus how much you hear is insane. And that's why they like it. Because I just got to say three words. The other side will talk for 10 minutes. Now, the label is just slapping a label on the dynamic or the emotion or a hidden dynamic. Again, I'm coaching a client earlier, and they got a vendor that they're dealing with who's going to make all kind of excuses for why they couldn't get stuff done. And I said, well, the label here is. It sounds like you're telling me you're incompetent and it's got to be delivered just like that. I hesitated, you know, I did an upward inflection. I just. What are you telling me? If you're a professional and you agreed on a job and then you came back afterwards with all kinds of excuses, somewhere along the line, what you're telling me is you didn't know what you were doing. And the important thing about a label is it's gotta be a dynamic the other side introduces. You cannot introduce it. The other side has to introduce it, then it's fair game.

[C]

What's interesting to me, I mean, you Did a great job describing it, so I don't feel like I have to re explain it. But what's interesting to me is how important the way in which you say your mirror or label plays out in it. So it's not just the words, it's the way you say those words. So that combination of nonverbal presence and the verbal presence matter in this. And a lot of us fixate on just the words. And what I'm hearing you say is it's much more than that.

[D]

Being in law enforcement, then I'm always going to come up with law enforcement analogies. And so tone is like the rifling on a bullet. Now, a bullet comes out of a barrel and the things inside of the barrel of a gun called lands and grooves that actually spin the bullet so that when it comes out, it goes in a straight line. It's the same thing as when you throw a baseball, you spin the ball. A baseball pitch with no spin is called a knuckleball. And that thing goes all over the place and nobody knows where the hell it's going to land. And so for your words to hit the target, you know the very label I used before I could say it sounds like you're telling me you're incompetent. Now that's an insult. That tone of voice is an accusation. It's insulting. But if I say it sounds like you're telling me you're incompetent. Same words, right? Land a thousand percent different.

[C]

One of the things, Chris I really appreciate is you've done a really nice job of using analogies and, and analogies are really useful. While I don't know much about guns and bullets, it's very clear that spin matters.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[C]

So before we end, I'd like to ask you three questions that I'm asking everybody who's part of this miniseries on spontaneous speaking. Are you up for doing that?

[D]

Let's go for it. See what happens.

[C]

Chris I'd love to know who is a communicator you admire and why.

[D]

Kyle for Winfrey Tell me why. So she has dealt with some of the most volatile people on planet Earth. I've had some very specific conversations relayed to me in detail where she has taken celebrities to the woodshed over their behavior. I mean, she has the ability to maintain relationships even with differences of opinion. I'm a big fan. I'm a huge fan.

[C]

Question number two. While those listening in likely aren't going to have to speak in situations like you do, what advice would you give for them to speak better in the moment in general?

[D]

Just take your time. There's so much of an advantage while you're speaking to slow down a little, you know, let the moment play out. Some people take their time in speaking because they're determined to maintain control of the conversation. They'll only pause mid sentence so they don't get interrupted. So slowing the conversation down so you can absorb more information, so you can be more in the moment is not the same as slowing down to stay in control. If you slow down to be more connected with somebody in the moment, to hear them, to make them feel heard, you give yourself time to analyze in the moment, you're going to be a much better communicator.

[C]

This notion of pausing and slowing things down I think is really, really important. I want to add an exclamation point to that. In These spontaneous speaking situations, we feel such pressure to respond immediately and you remind us that slowing down actually affords us lots of opportunity. Final question for you. I want to switch roles on you. I'm the professor, but I'm going to have you be the professor. I'd like you to give me some homework. What is one communication thing that you would encourage me to do in my life that simulates the things that you do so I can get better in your case with negotiations and handling high pressure situations, Is there one thing you'd give me homework to practice, spend a day with?

[D]

Whatever somebody says to you say, seems like you have a reason for saying that. Somebody says, hey man, what a sunny day. Seems like you got a reason for saying that. Somebody says to you, you know, if you don't vote for so and so, you're betraying the American people. Seems like you got a reason for saying that. Just give yourself a day to experiment with that phrase. No matter what people say, you can come back with your opinion, your observation. It doesn't preclude you for any of the natural things you want to say. I promise you, you spend a day doing that, you are going to have four or five conversations. Just the vast majority of them are going to open up in ways you didn't imagine possible.

[C]

I really like that. It opens up the door for more information to come out. So there's more data. As you've talked about my mother in law, who I believe had a black belt in small talk, she used to say, tell me more, Chris.

[D]

Yeah, it's encouraging.

[C]

Exactly. Chris, this has been fantastic. You've given us lots of insight into how empathy can be an accelerant and really encouraging us to slow down, be present and respond not in one course or one way, but be open to responding in a way that's needed in the moment. Thank you so much.

[D]

The pleasure was mine. Thanks for having me on.

[A]

Thank you so much for joining us for another episode of.