235. Refine, Reframe, Repeat: Make Your Communication a Slam Dunk

Summary

Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques

Episode 235 - Refine, Reframe, Repeat: Make Your Communication a Slam Dunk

Host: Matt Abrahams
Guest: Chiney Ogwumike (Professional basketball player, ESPN analyst, gender equality advocate)
Date: October 14, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode focuses on the crucial role of effective communication in both sports and professional life. Host Matt Abrahams sits down with Chiney Ogwumike — WNBA athlete, ESPN broadcaster, and former Stanford basketball star — to break down practical strategies for high-pressure situations, the value of practice and authenticity, and tools for making complex communication accessible. The conversation touches on overcoming fear, the lessons from great coaches, breaking barriers in male-dominated spaces, and building routines for clarity and confidence in public-facing roles.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Communication Under Pressure (02:21–04:37)

• Basketball as a Communication Lab:
  Chiney describes basketball as an arena that forces communication, both verbal and nonverbal, and underscores the need for shorthand (symbols, cues) for rapid teamwork.

  "You have to be able to use your voice, find your voice. That doesn't mean you have to talk a lot. It just means that you have to communicate the important messages."
  — Chiney Ogwumike at 02:35

• Trust, Chemistry, and Multichannel Messages:
  She credits working with legendary coach Tara VanDerveer for teaching her the power of nonverbal symbols and consistency in communication.

  "Coach Tara... taught us symbols — 1, 2, 3, 4, shapes, movements that could be read... It really shows you the essence of chemistry."
  — Chiney Ogwumike at 03:12

2. Overcoming Fear Through Preparation and Practice (04:37–06:12)

• Practice as the Path to Confidence:
  Chiney opens up about her free throw anxiety and how repetition and relentless practice transformed her fear into confidence, a lesson she applies across her career.

  "There is freedom on the other side of your fear. Meaning if you go in there and you practice... a repetition of errors shows a lack of intelligence... So for me... I just kept shooting free throw after free throw after free throw."
  — Chiney Ogwumike at 04:37

• Universal Application — Public Speaking:
  Matt draws parallels to common fears in communication, like public speaking, highlighting the importance of practice and incremental progress.

3. Lessons from Great Coaches: Incremental Growth (06:52–08:21)

• Consistency and Small Steps:
  Chiney shares her mother's saying, "Tiny drops of water make a mighty ocean," connecting it to the power of showing up consistently, focusing on incremental improvements, and the cumulative impact on performance and self-perception.

  "The best things in life are things you work at over long periods of time… Those incremental things that are sustainable, those tiny drops of water that builds an ocean, that can change the tides of how you perceive yourself."
  — Chiney Ogwumike at 06:52

4. Navigating Male-Dominated Spaces & The Power of Imperfect Authenticity (09:13–10:48)

• Barriers and Perceptions in Broadcasting:
  Chiney describes the double scrutiny she faces as a woman covering the NBA and how she handles public mistakes and judgment.

  "They see you before they hear you, they judge you before they know you, but they still can't stop you."
  — Chiney Ogwumike at 09:13

  • She rejects perfectionism and stresses embracing mistakes, reframing them as learning opportunities and emphasizing authenticity.

  "Perfection is overrated... Not many people, if any, are perfect communicators... What you do when [a mistake] happens is what defines how you are as a communicator. Those are the things where you accept your humanity."
  — Chiney Ogwumike at 09:13

• Being Relatable:
  Authenticity and self-acceptance not only alleviate pressure but also build trust and relatability with audiences.

5. Strategies for Clear, Impactful Broadcasting (12:14–14:10)

• Three-Part Communication Routine:
  Chiney details her preparation routine for broadcasting — applicable to any high-stakes communication:

  1. Research & Fact-Checking:
     She collaborates with researchers to back up her opinions with data, especially valuable as a woman in a male-dominated field.

     "People want to be like, oh, but what do you know? You never played in the NBA. What I do know are numbers and facts."
     — Chiney Ogwumike at 12:14

  2. Mental Preparation:
     She centers herself with two prayers (the Serenity prayer and Guardian Angel prayer), building a mindset of calm and focus, similar to her rituals before games.

     "[I] say the Serenity prayer... I did those two things before every basketball game, too... giving my protection in this moment to my spirituality."
     — Chiney Ogwumike at 13:07

  3. Rule of Threes:
     She structures her analysis in three key points, helping audiences retain information and avoid information overload.

     "People can take information the best in threes... Three key points are very easy to be retained."
     — Chiney Ogwumike at 13:54

6. Audience Q&A: Advice, Role Models, Essentials (16:16–18:45)

• Advice for Young Women Entering the Workforce:

  "You belong and so does your voice... Comparison being the thief of joy instead of staying true to your own path and being authentically yourself."
  — Chiney Ogwumike at 16:45

• Communicator She Admires:
  Chiney lauds Lisa Leslie, not only for her verbal communication but for the way she carries herself, reinforcing that presence and behavior are just as communicative as words.

  "Communication is not just what we say verbally. It's how you carry yourself. What are you communicating to the world?"
  — Chiney Ogwumike at 17:33

• Top 3 Ingredients for Successful Communication:
  Preparation, authenticity, and purpose.

  "Preparation, authenticity, and purpose."
  — Chiney Ogwumike at 18:39

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "There is freedom on the other side of your fear." — Chiney Ogwumike, 04:37
• "Tiny drops of water make a mighty ocean." — Chiney’s mom / Chiney Ogwumike, 06:52
• "They see you before they hear you, they judge you before they know you, but they still can't stop you." — Chiney Ogwumike, 09:13
• "Perfection is overrated... What you do when [a mistake] happens is what defines how you are as a communicator." — Chiney Ogwumike, 09:13
• "Preparation, authenticity, and purpose." — Chiney Ogwumike, 18:39

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Effective teamwork through shorthand and nonverbal cues: 02:21–03:12
• Overcoming pressure and fear in performance: 04:37–06:12
• Lessons from great coaches; incremental growth: 06:52–08:21
• Dealing with visibility and imperfection in broadcasting: 09:13–10:48
• Chiney’s three-step routine for effective, credible communication: 12:14–14:10
• Rapid-fire questions (Advice, Role Models, Top Ingredients): 16:16–18:45

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Summary Takeaways

• Effective communication is multi-channel: Words, symbols, and body language all matter, especially under pressure.
• Practice and repetition, not perfection, build confidence and skill.
• Consistency and small, daily improvements are more valuable than grand gestures.
• Authenticity and embracing mistakes make communicators relatable and credible.
• Preparation—fact-checking, mental routines, and clear structure—are the backbone of high-impact communication.
• Everyone’s presence and voice belong—the key is to show up purposefully and authentically.

This episode is rich in practical wisdom and inspiration for communicators at any level, blending sports and real-world communication scenarios with actionable advice and memorable stories.

Transcript

[A]

Hi, Matt here. Before we get started, I'm excited to share that our October newsletter is now available. Learn about five common communication mistakes people make and most importantly, how to fix them. Plus, hear about ways to get involved in something exciting that we're working on to transform your communication skills and career. Find our newsletter at Think Fast, Talk Smart on LinkedIn or under resources@fastersmarter IO now a word from one of our sponsors. Their support allows us to bring you quality content free of charge. We spend about a third of our waking hours working, but so many people feel stuck in their jobs they've outgrown. I've heard it all. What if the next move is even worse? I can't afford to take the wrong step. Who am I without the title I have? These feelings are real, but they're also why so many people feel stuck. That's where today's sponsor, Strawberry Me, comes in. They connect you with a certified career coach who helps you go from where you are to to where you actually want to be. It's like therapy for your career. A coach helps you cut through the noise, define your next move, and turn vague goals into a real world plan with accountability that keeps you moving forward. Own your future with a coach in your corner. Go to Strawberry Me Smart to claim your $50 credit and get started. That's Strawberry Me Smart. Stop settling. Start building the career you actually want.

[B]

The effort you put in in terms of practice and preparation have a huge impact on the quality of your communication. My name is Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.

[A]

Today I'm excited to speak with Chiney Ogumike.

[B]

Chiney is a professional basketball player, an NBA and WNBA analyst for ESPN and an advocate for gender equality in sports. She, along with her sister Neca were star basketball players at Stanford. Chenay, I am thrilled to have you join me. Thanks for being here.

[C]

Thanks for having me. This is definitely a bucket list podcast.

[B]

Should we get started?

[C]

Yeah, let's do it.

[B]

Unlike some sports that have time for in game planning and communication, think of like a football huddle. Basketball is incredibly fast paced. How did you manage to communicate effectively and quickly while on the go?

[C]

The cool thing about sports is that it forces you to communicate whether you are someone that is vocal or not. You have to be able to use your voice, find your voice. That doesn't mean you have to talk a lot. It just means that you have to communicate the important messages. Because we are all one team. Communication is essential when it comes to team sports, and basketball will test that because it's also a cardio sport. So, like, you have to feed a K, you have to look, you have to do nonverbal cues. Like all of that matters when it comes to trying to achieve your ultimate goal.

[B]

And would you work with your teammates to come up with some shorthand or ways of communicating more quickly or in that moment so you could perform better?

[C]

Oh, absolutely. One of the things that I learned from the greatest coach I've ever played for, iconic Tara Vandiver, is she's very big on symbols because oftentimes there's so many things in this world that can be distractions, that can be things that can be used to sort of deflect what your goal is or what you're trying to achieve. That coach Tara, she taught US symbols. 1, 2, 3, 4, or just, you know, shapes or just, you know, movements that could be read. No matter who's in the room, whether that room is a small practice gym or Maples Pavilion. It's interesting because the best, most gratifying moments that I've had, not just in basketball, also as a broadcaster, is when you're able to work with someone, you're doing something at a high level and you are communicating, even non verbally, because it really shows you the essence of chemistry. And I found that on the court and I've also found that in the studio.

[B]

Wow. So this notion of trust really underlies a lot of this. And it's multi channel. It's not just the words you use, it's the symbols and the nonverbal that really matter. And working on it makes a difference. And I love that you've seen that both in your playing life, but in also in your professional life. Playing professional basketball requires performing under immense pressure. I can't imagine what it feels like to shoot a free throw with thousands of people yelling and screaming. What mental strategies do you use to stay calm and focused during high pressure situations, both when you're on the court, but also when you're on the screen or in your everyday life.

[C]

It sounds so corny, but it's true. The older I get, the more I realize that these old adages actually make sense. People are saying it for a reason, and it keeps getting passed on from generation to generation. Practice makes perfect. And I love that you brought up the free throw, because that was where I had my fear. I was very afraid as a freshman at Stanford University to shoot free throws because I wasn't great at it. But there is freedom on the other Side of your fear. Meaning if you go in there and you practice and you do the repetition, a repetition of errors means it shows a lack of intelligence. Like you keep making the same mistakes. It shows that you're not capable of retaining information so that you can be better and erase those mistakes. So for me, I was like a 60% free throw shooter when I came to Stanford. And I'm not going to lie exactly what you talked about. We have our, you know, Maples Pavilions just rocking. I would always tell people my hands didn't feel like my hands because I was overconscious of what I looked like, what I felt like in that moment. So what did I do? I just went during practice, after everything was done to the corner, and I just kept shooting free throw after free throw after free throw. And now when I got to the pros, I was so confident in my free throws that people would say, today, you know, end of practice, it's either you make it or we have to run down and back. I'd go up there and I knocked down my free throw. And it was a mental thing. My dad loves the mind over matter. Giving yourself that notion that I have practiced this, I am a master of this. All I have to do is do what I do, no matter the circumstance. And so that's sort of what helped me when it came to addressing situations that I felt like were bigger than me, but I knew I could meet that moment.

[B]

So taking the time to confront the fear and practice your way through it. I love that notion of there's freedom on the other side of fear, but you have to commit and do the work and it has great payoffs. And I think a lot of people listening in have fear of speaking in front of others or standing up in high stakes situations. And there are things that we can do to practice, to help. Taking classes, listening to a show like this, doing Toastmaster. There are all these ways to get that practice and those reps in. Thank you for sharing that you have had several coaches over your career. What have you noticed that great coaches do to motivate their players? And how have you taken some of those learnings into what you do when you have to motivate other people?

[C]

My mom has always had the saying that I have internalized tiny drops of water make a mighty ocean. And when I think about great coaches and being able to address maybe fears, whether it is communication or performance, I go to that saying and it marries with what coach Tara. I learned by watching her for four years, showing up as the same person each and every day. And that to me is the number one thing that we can do to be able to put ourselves in a position to have that growth. I think oftentimes the best things in life are things you work at over long periods of time. And so being in an environment where I have learned and watched so many great coaches show up as the same person, whether it's win or loss, approach preparation at the highest levels and then know that you give your all no matter what the outcome is going to be. That, to me, is what moves the goalpost forward inch by inch, not just throwing those Hail Mary touchdowns. It's like those incremental things that are sustainable, those tiny drops of water that builds an ocean, that can change the tides of how you perceive yourself. Great people, great communicators. Anyone that's working at something, at a skill, show up as the same person each and every day and just chip away, chip away, chip away at it. And to the point where they turn that weakness into a strength. And then after turning that into a strength, they go on to another skill and harness that skill set to the point where you're a master.

[B]

I really like your mother's saying of the, the drops leading into the ocean. I think that's a really powerful metaphor for what you're talking about, which is it takes time and it takes practice. And the great coaches focus on the, the little things. It's not the big thing right away, it's these little steps that get you to that greatness. I do want to talk a little bit about your move into broadcasting. You know, broadcasting, especially sports broadcasting, is a male dominated profession, although it is changing. How have you dealt with being part of a profession where there aren't lots of people similar to yourself? Many of our listeners can relate to not being like others that they work with in terms of age, gender, experience, et cetera. How have you handled that and what have you done to help yourself feel more comfortable, but also help others see the value that you bring?

[C]

So the biggest challenge that I had when I just started becoming a broadcaster and the way I sum it up is this saying, they see you before they hear you, they judge you before they know you, but they still can't stop you. And being in this field, it's very similar to playing, because when I played and I miss a shot and it's on national tv, everyone saw that I missed that shot. Very similar to broadcast. If I forget a player's name or I mess up on a breakdown, everyone's going to see that. That's my voice, that's my face. But one thing I have found that I think people don't realize is perfection is overrated. Missing shots teach you how to make shots, making mistakes teach you how to protect yourself from having those types of situations in the future. And also I think there's this thing in communication that people don't realize. Not many people, if any, are perfect communicators. We're going to stutter, we're going to stammer, we're going to forget a name, we're going to forget a place. What you do when that happens is what defines how you are as a communicator. Those are the things where you accept your humanity. And I think that actually makes you more relatable. Being unapologetically yourself, being real, being honest. As long as you believe in it and you are prepared and you have intentions in when you are trying to communicate your message. The rest is a non factor. And so to me, that's the biggest thing. Like communication is not flawless. It's a learning exercise. It's something you continue to grow at. It's something you continue to master. But there's no one that is a absolute to the t perfect communicator.

[B]

At the end of the day, what you're really talking about is authenticity, right? The bottom line is be yourself. But this notion of there is no perfect communication and stressing out over it, absolutely 100% correct. You need to come teach my class. Because that's one of the biggest messages that I try to get across to my MBA students is that there is no perfect. There's better and there's worse. But as you said, we learn from that. And what I really like is, you know, the question I asked is you're in a space where there aren't a lot of people who have your background, have your experience, and yet you have carved out a space because of that authenticity, because of that willingness to just show up and be your best. And if that's not perfect, that's okay, keep working at it. And I think there's a lesson in there for all of us now that requires a certain degree of confidence, though. And it sounds like that confidence has built in you through your preparation, through the support system you have from your coaches, your family. I'd like to talk specifically in detail about the broadcasting you do. You on a regular basis are in front of large audiences. What rules and practices have you found helpful in communicating a lot of detailed information and yet making it accessible and engaging? It's fun. To watch you break down a play or talk about something. But when you think about it, you're covering a whole lot, lot of really technical information. Do you rely on particular tools or strategies to do that?

[C]

Yeah, there are a couple of strategies. And so I guess the easiest way to answer this is to give you a little bit of insight into my routine. So I typically come into the studio earlier than most analysts because one thing I've realized, especially as being a woman speaking on the NBA, people want to be like, oh, but what do you know? You never played in the NBA. What I do know are numbers and facts. So I love sitting down with my researchers because they're the ones that help me substantiate my opinions. In a dream world, having my blanket opinion would be great. But one thing I've realized is people like opinion and also fact to back it up. And so I spend a lot of time with our researchers. For every argument that I have, having numbers to substantiate what I'm going to say, Then I go up into the studio. And this is something that I think is very important, because a lot of times people think that, okay, I'm just going to go and talk. You have to get your mind right for what you're about to do. And so I have two things that I do. I say the serenity prayer, which is, God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things that I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. And then this is just something I always do, too. I say the angel of God, my guardian. Dear, that prayer. I say that every time I get on a flight, too, just because I feel like I'm entering an environment. And I did it before every game. I did those two things before every basketball game, too. Just like giving my protection in this moment to my spirituality, and also understanding that I have power to really help shape narratives that are my passions. So that's step two. So step one is research. Step two is getting my mind into the place where I can perform. And then step three is threes. Actually, what I have found is that people can take information the best in threes. When you just have a blanket statement, people are looking for more. You know, LeBron James is the greatest basketball player of all time. Great. Now tell me why. Now, if you have a delusion of facts, then you might get lost in the sauce. So three key points are very easy to be retained.

[B]

So, like you did as a player, there was a lot of work that went into that. I really appreciate several things you said. First and foremost, you have to have your approach and mindset down and you found a routine that works for you to help you feel empowered and to help you feel focused. And that's critical. Again, comes down to the repetition, the practice, the learning, the detail. And then I really like that you are mindful of how you actually structure the information. You don't just give people a deluge of information. You are very mindful of making a clear point and then supporting it, but not with too much detail. And that's, I think, a lesson for all of us, that we have to prepare ourselves mentally. We have to know our stuff, show up authentically, and then package it in a way that people can remember it and give them what they need, but not too much more. That was a great distillation of what I think makes for effective communication.

[A]

We'll be right back to finish our conversation, but first we're going to take a quick break for a message from our sponsors. These sponsorships support the cost of making our show, allowing us to bring it to you free of charge. This episode of Think Fast Talk Smart is brought to you by Squarespace, the all in one platform that helps you turn your ideas into a professional online presence. As someone who teaches communication, I always say that how you present yourself matters not just in person, but online too. Whether you're building a personal brand, sharing your research or launching a new project, Squarespace gives you everything you need to communicate clearly and confidently. With blueprint AI. Squarespace's intelligent Website builder, you you can create a customized, polished site in just a few steps. Plus, built in email campaigns and analytics help you engage your audience and understand what's landing. Just like feedback after a great talk. So if you're ready to craft your message and share it with confidence, head to squarespace.com thinkfast for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use the code thinkfast to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. That's squarespace.com thinkfast offer code thinkfast before.

[B]

We end, I like to ask all my guests three questions. One I create just for you and the other two are similar across everybody I interview. Are you up for that?

[C]

Yeah, absolutely. I'm down.

[B]

My first question is if you had an opportunity to speak to young women, women coming out of college or of that age, starting their careers for the first time, what's one bit of advice you would give them beyond what you've talked about in terms of show up, be authentic. Is there something else you would share with young women who are entering the workforce or their first career.

[C]

I think it's such a unique time, and I don't take these moments for granted. And so what I would share to the rising generation of young women is that you belong and so does your voice. I think oftentimes in society, we look at the idea of comparison being the thief of joy instead of staying true to your own path and being authentically yourself. To me, that's what has changed the game.

[B]

So much richness in that response. The thing that really resonated with me is that you belong and your voice matters. And I hope young women, young men, everybody listens to that and takes that advice. Question number two. Who is a communicator that you admire and why?

[C]

The first person that comes to my mind is Lisa Leslie. Probably a deceptive pick or an obvious pick because I come from the world of women's basketball. But communication is not just what we say verbally. It's how you carry yourself. What are you communicating to the world? You know, I think that's one of the things that I didn't understand until I had a platform. And people look to me as someone that they could aspire to be. If I'm walking down the street, how I carry myself is communication just as much as me on the broadcast, just as much as me playing on the court. And so Lisa, and being able to have her as a mentor, the way she carried herself at the time, which was so huge at the genesis of the WNBA coming off of the 96 Olympics, changed the game for so many women in sports. And then on top of it, to pivot into being a mother, a sister, an entrepreneur, a broadcaster, an entertainer, just an icon. How you carry yourself matters just as much as what you say. And so I. I always shout her out.

[B]

Let me ask our final question. What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication?

[C]

Recipe, preparation, authenticity, and purpose.

[B]

I love it. Preparation, which doesn't surprise me, based on what you've talked about. Authenticity as well, and then having a clear purpose in mind. And certainly you are somebody who is purpose driven. Chiney, this has been phenomenal. Thank you. Not only did you teach a lot of players lessons on the court, you teach a lot of people lessons in your broadcasting. Thank you. Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. To learn more about leadership and communication from sports stars, listen to episode 166 with Andrew Luck and episode 153 with Tara Vandiver. This episode was produced by Ryan Campos.

[A]

And me, Matt Abrahams. Our music is from Floyd Wonder with thanks to Podium podcast company. Please find us on YouTube and wherever.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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