Podcast Summary: Think Fast, Talk Smart – "Be Kind: The Most Overlooked Driver of Success"

Host: Matt Abrahams
Guest: Bonnie Hayden Chang, Professor of Management at City University of Hong Kong
Episode: 256
Date: January 15, 2026

Main Theme & Purpose

This episode delves into the transformative impact of kindness in the workplace, reframing it as a critical driver of organizational success, not just a "soft skill." Matt Abrahams speaks with Bonnie Hayden Chang, whose research and book, The Return on How: Kind Leadership Wins Talent, Earns Loyalty, and Builds Successful Companies, make the business case for kindness. The conversation explores definitions, frameworks such as the RISE model, the distinction between kindness and niceness, the interplay between kindness and candor, strategies for embedding kindness into company culture, and practical communication techniques.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Defining Kindness and Its Value in the Workplace

• Kind Leadership Defined:
  • “I define kind leadership as taking intentional action in service to and for the betterment of the people under your care.” (Bonnie, 00:59)
• It’s about worldview—embodying generosity, humility, compassion, and empathy in daily interactions.
• Return on Kindness (ROK):
  • Kind cultures lead to increased commitment, lower absenteeism, better performance, productivity, efficiency, and lower costs.

    “Organizations that have this kind of culture around acts of civic virtue or helping... end up having employees that want to stay...their performance goes up.” (Bonnie, 01:59)

2. Operationalizing Kindness: The RISE Framework

• RISE:
  • R: Role Modeling – Leaders set the tone, especially during stress.
  • I: Intentional Flexibility – Supporting different challenges through flexible structures and policies.
  • S: Supportive Action – Kindness must manifest through action, both emotional and practical.
  • E: Energy – Leaders’ energy is contagious; positive or negative energy significantly affects teams.
  • “A leader can enter a room and spread positive energy, or...negative energy. And that's just going to affect your people for the rest of the day.” (Bonnie, 04:25)

3. Kindness as a Collective Responsibility

• The RISE framework applies beyond just those in authority—every person in an organization can and should lead with kindness.
• “Every single person in an organization should be showing leadership qualities. So the RISE model absolutely applies to everyone…” (Bonnie, 05:59)

4. The Distinction: Kindness vs. Niceness

• Niceness: Avoids conflict, makes decisions based on being liked, skirts around hard conversations.
• Kindness: Holds high standards, is tough when needed, and has people’s best interests at heart.
• “Being a kind leader doesn't mean that you are letting things slide.” (Bonnie, 07:55)
• Quote: “You can be kind, but you don't let people walk all over you.” (Matt, 08:50)

5. Kindness and Candor: Not Opposites

• Giving direct, candid feedback can be kind when it seeks to help others grow.
• Authenticity and positive intent are key to constructive candor.
• “Being kind is being truthful and being kind is being candid because you are trying to help the person or the team or the company be the best that it can be.” (Matt, 10:47)

6. Communicating Kindness: Practical Strategies

• Active Listening:
  • Not passive—requires asking questions, empathizing, using nonverbal cues, and clarifying.

    "Active listening is really about asking questions, showing that you are attentive through your nonverbals... clarifying your assumptions or even repeating back what you hear." (Bonnie, 11:40)

• Tone Matters:
  • Tone can reinforce or undermine kind intent; it’s a skill that can and should be practiced.
  • “If I say it in a tone that mirrors that value, I think it goes down much better.” (Matt, 13:30)
• Pausing:
  • Pausing in heated moments before responding can protect kindness in difficult conversations.

    "Don't be afraid to pause...I need a minute. I just need to process. I need to think about this." (Bonnie, 14:58)

7. Building and Protecting a Culture of Kindness

• Four Steps to Building Kind Cultures:
  • Values refresh—ensure kindness is lived, not just stated.
  • Integrate kindness into hiring and onboarding.
  • Use storytelling to showcase real acts of kindness.
  • “Actioning kindness”—embed it in metrics and succession planning; protect the culture by making tough decisions about unkind high performers.
  • “A positive kind culture should be protected at all costs.” (Bonnie, 16:43)
• Highlighting and rewarding acts of kindness need to be systematic and consistent.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Return on Kindness:
  “Return on investment is really looking at the outcome, and kindness return on kindness is really looking at the experience.”
  Matt Abrahams, 02:52

• On Protecting Kindness:
  “How are you building kindness into your metrics? How are you making sure that kindness is protected?...The way that companies deal with...unkind high performers...speaks volumes about what they prioritize.”
  Bonnie Hayden Chang, 16:43

• On Culture Starting Early:
  “It seems to me that it [kindness] starts before somebody actually gets employed. It's part of the interview process. You're talking about it, you're assessing it, you're demonstrating it.”
  Matt Abrahams, 15:03

• On the Kindness Boomerang:
  “Kindness also reciprocates, it boomerangs back to you. And so when you are showing that kindness, it will come back to you as well.”
  Bonnie Hayden Chang, 18:47

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:59] – Defining kindness, leadership, and ROK.
• [03:36] – The RISE framework for operationalizing kindness.
• [05:59] – RISE applies to everyone; not just authority figures.
• [07:28] – Distinction between kindness and niceness.
• [09:56] – Navigating candor and kindness in feedback.
• [11:25] – Communicating kindly: active listening.
• [13:33] – The role of tone in communicating kindness.
• [15:34] – Building and transitioning to a culture of kindness.
• [16:43] – Protecting and rewarding kindness in practice.
• [18:47] – Key takeaway: inspire a movement around kindness.

Three Ingredients for Successful Communication (Final Segment)

Question: What are the first three ingredients in a communication recipe?

• Curiosity
• Assuming positive intent
• Trust
  (Bonnie, 20:29)

Takeaways & Actionable Advice

• Kindness is a Leadership Essential: It’s about intentional action, modeling values, and balancing toughness with empathy.
• Everyone Can Lead with Kindness: The responsibility to foster kind culture is shared at all levels.
• Kindness Is Not Weakness: Directness, candor, and high standards can be delivered with kindness and reap greater loyalty and performance.
• Practical Tools: Use frameworks (like RISE), focus on active listening and mindful tone, and build structures that both reward and protect kindness.
• Culture Change Requires Intentionality: Embed kindness in the organization’s DNA through consistent values, hiring, recognition, and storytelling.

For further learning:

• Listen to Episode 93 (Celine Teo) and 132 (Amy Edmondson) for more on building productive cultures.

“It's about return on kindness, not just return on investment.”
— Matt Abrahams, 20:46