← Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques
Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques
264. Show Your Receipts: Communicating in a Post-Truth World
00:24:49
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C
The best way to connect and truly communicate is to be curious and and respectful. My name is Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. Today, I'm really excited to speak with Fareed Zakaria. Fareed is the host of CNN's flagship international affairs program, Fareed Zakaria GPS, and he's a weekly columnist for the Washington Post. He specializes in translating complex geopolitical trends.
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A
For a broad audience.
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His insightful book Age of Revolutions is.
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Out now in paperback.
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A
Welcome, Fareed.
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I have benefited so much from what you do on television and in your writing. Thanks so much for being here.
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B
It's a pleasure to do this.
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Shall we get started?
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B
Absolutely.
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C
You argue we're living in one of the most revolutionary periods in all of history. What specific forces are leading you to make this claim?
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B
So if you look at the pace of change, particularly along the kind of key drivers that have tended to produce this kind of sense of society being upended. They tend to be technology in the first instance almost always. You know, in my book the Age of Revolutions, I talk about how, starting with the Dutch and the invention of the kind of technology that allowed the Netherlands to become rich. You know, this was water management, then financial management. They created the first joint stock companies, the first stock exchange, then transportation equipment. They invent tall ships that can go around the world. It produces a huge set of revolutions. If you think about the information revolution, this really is the mother of all revolutions at some level, because you are almost replacing, or at least replacing in central importance the material economy and supplanting it with a digital economy. And now with AI, that becomes even more true. The second is globalization, which is we have seen an explosion of globalization on a scale in the last 30 or 40 years, on a scale like nothing we've seen before. To put it in simple context, globalization, you know, the rest of the world joining in the kind of Western open market system, 1950s and 60s, you had Japan joining 80 million people, South Korea, 40 million people, Malaysia, maybe Singapore, Hong Kong, 5, 10 million. Between 1985 and 1995, roughly China, India, most of Latin America, Indonesia. You talk about three and a half, four billion people joining the open world trading system. So that shocked. But then the other one, which people don't think about enough is we have gone through enormous cultural change in the last 40 years. Think about the role of immigrants in society and Western societies. And the point I'm trying to make is that this is all happening at the same time. So when you put that all together, this does feel like the mother of all revolutions.
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C
It's amazing how much has happened and how much has happened in a relatively short amount of time. In an age where we're in the midst of this information revolution and information is infinite and algorithms influence who sees and hears our messages. I'm curious to get your opinion. Do facts still matter or is communication just become purely about identity and emotion?
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B
It's become much more about identity and emotion because of the disaggregation of channels. I think the fundamental technological shift here which is driving all this is that there used to be centralized modes of communication. You know, think about. Radio is a one to many broadcast system. That's why in the old days when they'd have a coup, you would try to take over the presidential palace and you'd try to take over the radio station. Cause you wanted the source of political power and the source of information power. Then you went to the TV station and the presidential palace. Today, in a networked many to many broadcast system, there is no node to take over. There's no hierarchy of information. And in that situation you are going to see a much greater degree of contested facts, contested narratives and things like that. It's very disconcerting because it does mean, as you're suggesting, a kind of post fact or post truth environment. But it is where we are. And that means that you try hard to make your case as forcefully as you can. You can't rely on authority anymore to say, trust me, this is what happened, you're gonna have to show the receipts.
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C
You know, if you were to give people advice on how to talk smart in an environment where all the incentives are to speak loudly, what would you tell people to do?
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B
The first thing you try to do, if you're trying to genuinely persuade people as opposed to preach to the converted, which is what I would argue 90% of what passes for political discourse on television and even beyond television, social media for sure, the first thing you've got to do is you've got to try and make the case as plainly, and I don't want to say unemotionally, but in a way that does not rely on demonizing somebody. You're trying to present the facts and you're trying to say, this is what the landscape looks like. Now, here's why I think what I do. So you're not doing. You're not. There's not a lot of ad hominem, there's not a lot of name calling, there's not a lot of screaming, because otherwise you're turning off a whole bunch of people. The second thing I think you have to do is you have to marshal the facts when I say the receipts. You have to have real evidence, real data, so that people can see that you are coming to your conclusions from an honest place of analysis rather than a preconceived place of, this is my team and I'm rooting for my team. And the third, and this may sound like it's contradictory to the second, you have to be able to establish a connection, almost an emotional connection, with the person reading you, viewing you. And what I mean by that is you have to establish trust and you can do it in different ways. One way is to not demean the other side. Do it in a way that says, look, I'm trying to be as honest and honorable as I can here. This is the situation as I see it. It seems to me we're going down a bad path, and here's why. So if you do those three things, you're likely to help. The way I think about it is lead somebody down a series of steps. Now, they might not get to the place you want them to get to, but at least they've gone down those steps and they've seen that you're trying to go down those steps honorably and reasonably and fairly, and then they may back away.
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C
What I heard you say is that it starts with respect. You don't start with challenging and vitriol. You then provide the facts and then connect in a way that's genuine, authentic, and that's how you can foster understanding, which is different from agreement. I think that gets conflated a lot where we see understanding and agreement being the same thing. As somebody who does both writing and video camera work, many people are finding themselves having to be on air more. I mean, much of our communication now is visual. If you're a leader in an organization, you have to have a camera presence. What have you noticed has helped you be successful in making that transition from writing and speaking in meetings into being on camera in a way that we all could benefit from Some of the advice that you've learned.
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What I am struck by is visual media is actually quite. It's the opposite of what most people think. It selects for a lot of things, but one of them is intelligence. Think about it this way. If you have an article that you're reading in a long magazine, say the Atlantic or the New York Review of Books or the Harvard Business Review, it's not quite that long. They can often meander. They can often be parenthetical. You can't do that on visual. People will start with. They'll click off. They'll switch the channel. They'll stop watching the YouTube video. You have to stay focused. You have to be linear. There has to be a narrative. You have to be saying something important. You can't be doing a lot of throat clearing. So that I think I'm just. I happen to be good at. Because that's my way of thinking and talking anyway. And I tend to think that it's also that I am myself. I don't put on airs. I don't try to speak in a very fancy way. If you watch my show, compared to, let's say, you pull up a broadcast from Peter Jennings or Tom Brokaw, old anchors of 20 years ago, they would speak in these perfect, clipped sentences with a usually a low Midwestern baritone. And I don't talk like that. I talk the way I would talk to you normally. I also would have an occasional, um in there. I think that conveys to the viewer this is a real human being, and you're getting him talking the way he normally talks. I tend to think that's an advantage. It's maybe partly I say that because I don't think I could pull off this sustained staying in that anchorman mode, but I do think it's an advantage.
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C
So I'm hearing concision and authenticity are really important in the visual medium is not as forgiving, and these are skills that you can learn and you have to practice. And yet it's becoming more and more relevant and important. I want to tie in some of your work on revolutions to things that we think a lot about, which is entrepreneurship and disruption. Many of the revolutions you described started with radical ideas that eventually became mainstream. Are there lessons we can learn that can help entrepreneurs and activists take their disruptive ideas and make them more generally acceptable?
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I think that more than anything else, the ones that seem to succeed have two elements to them. One is luck. I will be totally honest with you, and I think anyone who doesn't admit this is just being silly. You know, you get the right time at the right place, the timing worked, Other factors came together to make something happen. But the second is a certain kind of determination, a certain set doggedness. You. You can't get too disheartened when you're trying to do something, and you have to be willing to ride the ups and downs. The way I think about it is so many of the people who I've seen who've been successful entrepreneurs, the company that worked was their third company, but they were determined to find something that works. And you adjust and say, okay, the market doesn't want this or the consumer doesn't want that, but you are going to do something, you're going to make it work in some way or the other.
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So it's determination and taking advantage of the situation that is around you.
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Maybe the weird thing about luck is to recognize when fortune is favoring you and ride the wave. And that does take skill, and that does take. You need to be prepared, you need to work hard, and you need to ride the wave. When you see the wave coming, the other side to it is recognize when you're against the wave. I remember having this fascinating conversation with George Soros once, and he said, you and I do the same thing. We look at the world and try to analyze it. The difference is I put my money where my mouth is, and you don't have to. And I said, okay, given that, what do you think are the differences in the way we approach it? And he said, I'll tell you. I think one of the principal differences, people who are intellectuals get very wedded to their ideas, and they're very wedded to their theories, and they're slow to notice that the world is disconforming your idea. He said, if I see that the market is telling me I'm wrong, I will sometimes wait, but it's very expensive to wait. And so you really need to take in that feedback that the market is telling you you're wrong. And there are times when I have made a bet and the market is telling me I'm wrong, and I'll bet against myself twice as hard on the opposite side of that bet because I've realized that the market is right and I'm wrong. And intellectuals tend to be way too stubborn in holding onto their theories. I mean, you know this from being at a university, because people, in a way get famous for their theory. Right?
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C
I think that's a really valuable point. In addition to tenacity and recognizing and being able to observe the patterns, to decide what decisions to make, we need to be willing to let go and cut bait. And that's so hard. There's so many things that conspire against that. I'm going to be very curious to hear your thoughts on this. I and a fellow colleague at the gsb, Rachel Conrad, have become very concerned about how teens communicate and the challenges that they have. I'm sure you've seen the same decline that I have, that critical thinking, interpersonal communication among teens has really taken a hit. Do you have thoughts on what parents, teachers, communities can do to help adolescents communicate better?
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I do. I hate to be cliched about this, but I do think that Jonathan Haidt is dead on when he talks about the effects of phones and social media. And it's the combination of the two, I think. And I have personal examples. I've seen this with my kids, and in one case, one of my kids put aside their smartphone for two years. They only had a flip phone, and it totally transformed the way in which they had the ability to connect and think and save our life almost. I think that the thing about a smartphone, which is like a supercomputer in your pocket, is it creates a certain kind of learned autism. What I mean by that, say, when you and I were younger, we were in an awkward social situation. We're at a cocktail party, school mixer. You have to make your way around, right? Like you have to figure out what to do. You find somebody you can talk to. You look around sheepishly and hope that you catch somebody's eye. You're engaged in social interaction today. You know what happens the minute somebody feels socially awkward? Take out their phone and they're on their phone and they're now looking at Instagram or they're connecting with some friends. But those are people they already know. You're not engaging in the hard work of social interaction, which is with the people you don't know. Breaking the ice, finding a way. And similarly, if you're listening to a lecture, the minute it gets boring for you, you take out your phone. You're not asking yourself, okay, is there something interesting here? Is there something I can connect with? Is there?
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No.
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So that's what I mean by the learned autism. Right? Like you immediately retreat to yourself and the supercomputer in your pocket allows you to retreat to yourself so quickly that you lose the muscles of doing those other things that you should be doing. I think that's most of it. I do not believe that kids today are stupider. They're good, they're hardworking, they have good morals, they have good ethics. But I think we have given them the biggest temptation you could ever imagine. Imagine if you and I were trying to study in the old days and you were given a machine on which you were told, you can watch every movie that has ever been made, every song that has ever been recorded here, or you could do your homework. You are giving them an impossible temptation. And so I just think the degree to which you can limit it is the best you can do.
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Absolutely. I do agree that social media phones absolutely have implications. I do think adults in kids lives can take action by role modeling, good communication, walking through the decisions that we make as we communicate with others, just so that we can make sure that these skills are at least demonstrated and encouraged.
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Yeah, I would. I give you an example. In my family, we always sit down to dinner together, no phones at the table, and we always talk. Now, contrary to what a lot of people think, we don't talk about the world and international affairs and what's going on. We talk about just pretty mundane stuff. I think that's the more important because I want, I don't want them to have to feel like characters in my movie. It's about what happened in their day and what happened in the dog's life and things like that and that I think just, it seems very simple. But it does seem to me that it's a fairly good force multiplier. And when I've talked to them, they often point out that when they talk to them friends, it's becoming uncommon for families to just sit together dinner and have that meal together and sit down, talk, no phones. It's usually, let's be honest, it's 30 minutes. But it's a very useful 30 minutes.
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Absolutely. And I love that you take the time to do that. And I'd love to be a fly on the wall on those conversations because in my mind I would imagine one thing and you're telling me it's something very different.
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We'll be right back to finish our conversation, but first we're going to take a quick break for a message from our sponsors. These sponsorships support the cost of making our show, allowing us to bring it to you free of charge. This episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart is brought to you by Squarespace. Hi, Matt. Here on Think Fast, Talk Smart, we talk a lot about clarity. How you structure and present ideas, changes how they're received. And the same thing is true of your website. If you've ever tried to build one. You know, it's not just about what you want to say, it's about how it's organized, how it looks and how easily people can make sense of it. That's where Squarespace really shines. Squarespace makes it easy to build clean, professional websites using cutting edge design tools and templates and then actually refine it. You can see what people are engaging with using built in analytics and their SEO tools help your work get discovered in the first place. So instead of wrestling with layout, structure and settings, you, you can focus on the message you're trying to communicate. Go to squarespace.com for a free trial and when you're ready to launch, use offer code TFTs to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.
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Before we end, I like to ask three questions of everybody. One I create just for you and then the other two are similar across all the episodes. Are you up for that?
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True.
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You have made your career or part of your career by asking tough, insightful questions of people. What makes for a good question? And do you have a go to question that you like to ask people?
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No, I think that's a mistake. I think that in general you really should be listening to people and watching them and that's each person has a different button you want to press. I think the most important thing, and you've said it, is being genuinely curious and genuinely believing that everybody has a story to tell. Everybody has something to teach you. Everybody has a lesson you can learn. And I really do believe that. And if you have that kind of curiosity, it's fun to ask people questions. If I go to dinner parties and I find that, like, people have just asked me lots of questions, I leave disappointed because I know what I think. I'm only learning when I'm listening, not when I'm talking.
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C
Absolutely. One of the mantras we learned from another guest we had on the show was it's all about being interested and not interesting. And when you take that approach, it can be very helpful. I'm curious to know your answer to this. Who is a communicator that you admire and why?
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Well, there are many, but let me give you one right now. Just because it's top of mind. I think Mamdani, the new mayor of New York, is remarkable. He may be one of the best communicators I've seen because he's figured out the medium of the moment. You know, these short form videos, they're very expertly done. They are not. This is not amateur. Remember, his mother is one of the great directors of our age, you know, so they're done right. But then he brings to it a kind of intelligence, imagination and authenticity. So the imagination is, if, I don't know if you remember, he's advocating for rent freezes, right? So he jumps into the Long Island Sound in February in freezing waters, in his entire. In his full suit, and he comes out saying something about how he's freezing and how he wants to freeze the rents. That's the imagination to get your attention to that is really very compelling. That mixture of intelligence, imagination, knowing the medium and being authentic. I should say I find many of his ideas deeply troubling and I don't agree with the substance of the policies, but I am irresistibly drawn to the power of his communication skills.
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Isn't it interesting how somebody can appreciate and understand the new way of communicating new technologies and still bring that authenticity, intelligence to take advantage of it? Thank you for sharing that final question for you. What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?
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I would start with authenticity, because I think that's where you get the trust. Some say, you know, clarity and, you know, kind of concision. And then the final one is probably that leap of imagination that allows you to be a little different, that allows you to do something arresting that gets you into the top tier, I think.
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C
So it's about authenticity, clarity and concision and creativity and imagination and I think when you combine that recipe together you get great communication and certainly you are a good example of putting those together. I appreciate all of the ideas and best practices you have shared and and I really appreciate the intelligent conversation that you role model for all of us. Thank you for your time and best of luck on your paperback of Age of Resolutions.
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Thank you so much. This was so much fun. I actually learned a lot while doing it.
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Thank you for joining us for another.
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Episode of Think Fast Talk Smart, the.
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Podcast to learn more about managing complex issues in communication. Please listen in to episode one 161 with Jen Psaki. This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos and me, Matt Abrahams. Our music is from Floyd Wonder with special thanks to the Podium podcast company. Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. Be sure to subscribe and rate us. Also follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok and Instagram and check out fastersmarterio for deep dive videos, English language learning content and our newsletter. Please consider joining our Think Fast Talk Smart Learning community At fastersmarter IO Learning you'll find video lessons, learning quests, decision boards, an AI coach and book club opportunities. Again, that's FasterSmarter IO learning to become part of our Think Fast Talk Smart.
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Learning Community Hi Matt here.
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I can't believe that this month is the six year anniversary of Think Fast Talk Smart's launch. As we start the new year, we're excited to bring you even more ways to learn, practice and grow your communication and career skills. We'll now be releasing eight episodes a month, coming out on Mondays and Thursdays.
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For those of you who like to.
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Watch your podcasts, we are now posting full video versions of each episode on both Spotify and YouTube. We're moving to a weekly email that shares specifics about the current week shows and previews. What's coming in the future. If you're not subscribed yet, head to Fastersmarter IO and hit subscribe. When you do, you'll also start getting our monthly newsletter. Fastersmarter IO is also the place to go for transcripts and show notes for each episode, and under the Resources menu you can find English language learning content for each episode. Speaking of languages, I'm excited to share that a Hindi version of the show is now available.
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You can get access to our extended.
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Deepthinks episodes and listen ad free by subscribing on Apple, Spotify or at fastersmarter IO Premium. I'd love for you to join us on our Think Fast Talk Smart Learning community where People from all over the globe are coming together to develop and hone their career and communication skills by taking asynchronous lessons, participating in learning quests, enjoying live author book talks, and getting individual guidance from my AI coach at fastersmarter IO Learning. Be sure to look at our social media channels for our video shorts, frameworks, infographics and protocols. You can also help us by giving us a five star rating and positive review. 2026 is going to be a great year for becoming more confident, clear and compelling in your communication and career. As always, thank you for your support and thank you for listening.