A (5:49)

So the algorithm and the way in which creators get rewarded financially and with followers, et cetera, is to be more dramatic, even though in some cases can pull them away from their authentic original purpose. Let's take a step back from creators, influencers and let's just talk about professionals in general. I mean, having a social media presence is important. It's how we define to the broader world who we are, what we do. It could set us up for other positions, can provide other opportunities to us. Do you have advice and guidance on how everyday professionals can navigate the pressure to build a credible online reputation while not falling victim to this drama?

B (6:31)

This is such an important point, and actually this is where in my book I kind of end, which is that really we are all content creators now, not only when doing a podcast, but just even just as workers, as everyday human beings, they're just all putting content out there and creating a public Persona that then plays an increasingly important role in hiring promotions and of course, getting laid off and fired for things that may or may not have caught the attention of your employers. As the dynamics of social media creations really come for the rest of us, what are some of the key aspects that, you know, I think we can translate from influencers and content creators to everyday social media users? I think the first one is that you really have to build on your area of expertise and that is something that cannot be faked. You know, in order for your audience to trust you, you have to come up with a kind of core competency, a core area, and a specific kind of angle on this core area that is specifically yours. Right now it may seem easy, but as anyone who's done kind of a bit of strategy or a bit of thinking kind of reflectively about what is my core area of expert, it's really not an easy process. And I think that for a lot of people as they negotiate kind of social media presence, it's very much a back and forth right between. I thought it was this, but perhaps it's not and kind of it's co constructed with the audience in many ways. So that's, I would say that's the first thing figuring out what's the area, what's the topic, what's the angles that you feel comfortable and an expert on and really pushing that on social media. My second take is again, that when it comes to drama and extreme content, these are extremely problematic things to engage in. When you look at content creators and having spent six years talking with them and interviewing them, following them and kind of seeing how they work, they over time develop a very sick skin for getting harassed, bullied, insulted on social media. An extremely painful process for many of them, I will add, especially for any kind of marginalized identity, you're just much more likely to get harassed online. It comes with a lot of distress, a lot of anxiety, a lot of fear. And so I think that for people who may not want to go on that specific emotional journey of developing that extremely sick skin when it comes to kind of social media presence, My second recommendation is always be aware that anything you post online is likely to be seen by your coworkers, your employers, or future clients, customers, employers, et cetera. And just trying to keep that in mind, especially when you're on your phone, perhaps late at night and being like, oh, I'm going to weigh in, I have an answer ready for this. And just thinking that social media is not only that anymore. I mean, increasingly, as we spend more and more time online, this is basically your professional window and your professional facade for potential employers.

A (9:41)

I think that last point is really important. How you show up on social media is how people see you. And you have to manage that and navigate through that very carefully. I like your suggestion to lean into your expertise and to be forewarned that when you put your thoughts and self out there, that there will be people who will comment on that. Now that commenting can be hurtful, painful and upsetting at times. You have a unique perspective, and you've mentioned this a couple times on how you do your research. You have a unique perspective on storytelling and that you conduct ethnographic research that results in people telling you their stories and then you in turn tell their stories to others. But you also look at how stories help build an online presence and creators and influencers. So you're looking at storytelling and using storytelling. So given your different perspectives on it, I'm curious, do you have any guidance on what goes into crafting a good story?

B (10:36)

That is such a good question. So it depends really on what you mean by a good story. Right. And what's the purpose of the story? And that's where I think I distinguish between. In academia, you are using stories, but it's always stories at the service of in my case, I'm a sociologist by training. A broader kind of argument about how the social world functions, Right? And so in my research, I really take these individual stories, I try to understand how people see the world, and then I build on that to identify what are the structural forces that shaped how the specific constraints and difficulties that they encounter come into being. And so, you know, in the case of social media influencers, for example, all social media creators see themselves as fearless entrepreneurs. There's a rhetoric of entrepreneurship is very strong for them, which makes a lot of sense. And often they come to social media creation because they're dissatisfied with nine to five jobs, to put it bluntly. Right. So there's a strong dissatisfaction with kind of modern corporate employment as a way of making a living. What's interesting, though, and this connects to the story thing, is that at the end of the day, yes, they are entrepreneurs in one sense, but really they work for social media platforms. Social media platforms are the one owning the means of distribution of their content. And. And that's something that a lot of creators can have a lot of trouble grappling with, Right? And so in my case, I'm like, okay, so let's take these individual stories and then connect that to the broader patterns of who owns and who is truly making money from what. And when I think of how creators themselves tell stories, I mean, typically it's gonna be stories that inspire, right? And so that's a different purpose, I think, in what's the role of a story? And again, there, like, part of the dynamic is creating connection with the audience, right? By providing some sense of vulnerability by sharing one's experience, by showing how you overcame difficulties, by showing that you're relatable, that you're authent, that you're putting yourself out there and then building on that experience to claim expertise, a specific type of expertise that can be called confessional in a way, right? Where you build on your own difficulties, your own kind of hard times, to show how you overcame that and encourage your followers to do the same thing.

A (13:06)

Well, it seems to me that from the academic sense, you're using stories as data that you can then extrapolate patterns and connections. The stories that the people you study are using are stories about connection, about being vulnerable. At the end of the day, though, in both cases, there's a purpose behind the story. The story serves a purpose. The story does serve to connect, in some cases, academic ideas together, in other cases, audiences together. But you really need to understand your audience and the purpose, and then you need to be able to take that content and articulate it in a way that motivates the audience you're speaking to and elucidates what it is you're looking for.

B (13:47)

I think a great way of putting this would be to say that stories really are bridges. But the question is, like, they're bridges from what to what?

A (13:55)

Exactly, right? So stories serve as bridges to fulfill a purpose. I have always been fascinated by ethnographic research. I've never done it myself. I've always been much more of a traditionalist in the research I do. But I really like the richness and the insight that ethnographies bring. And I've always appreciated that line of research. If you were to give somebody advice today who wanted to become a creator or wanted to enter into this economy, what would you advise? What would be the things that you would say you should consider and do?

B (14:24)

I would say a couple of things. First, I would say that the reality of social media labor is much harder than what some of the curated images or curated accounts that leading social media celebrities provide. It's a hard job. It's a job where you're alone day after day shooting and reshooting content, where your employer or your primary interlocutor is the algorithm of social media companies. And it's a hard boss to please, as many influencers can testify. It's changing all the time. The formats are changing all the time, the preferences of audiences are changing all the time. So you have to be extremely nimble. With that in mind, what would be my concrete recommendations? The first one is almost all creators have one primary platform, but the one who do better typically work across platforms and so trying to have different income streams so that you're not directly wedded and only wedded to one platform that could go under or could completely change its algorithms or its content moderation guidelines, I think, is a really important part of the game. So just spreading your kind of portfolio and your content across different platforms, including newsletters, blog posts, websites, just really trying to have as large a footprint as you can. So that would be my first thing. My second recommendation is that again, it's complicated to only be dependent on platform payments because you are going to be incentivized to engage in more drama or more extreme content. So that's not great when it's the only way in which you make money. What works better in my experience is again, people who have different revenue streams. So you do, yes, some platform payments, but also some sponsored content where you work with brands and you're transparent and selective in the brands you work out with so that it matches the identity of your production. And again, you do that, but not too much either, because if you do too much sponsored content, then suddenly you look like you're inauthentic and you're shilling for the brands.

A (16:31)

This idea of expectation setting for yourself and the expectations of the work that's required. Not a week goes by where people don't come to me and say, hey, I'd love to start a podcast. What you do is so great. And then when I explain the amount of work and the detail and the issues, people say, that sounds like a lot more than I was signing up for. And this idea of diversity, of ways that you do your job and how you get paid. Because at the end of the day, for many people, the creator economy is the way they get their work done. We'll be right back to finish our conversation, but first we're going to take a quick break for a word from our sponsors. Their support covers the cost of production, so we can bring you this show for free. This episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart is brought to you by Squarespace. You know, I talk a lot on this show about communication and increasingly part of that is having a place online where your ideas, your work and your voice can really live. But getting something like that started can feel like a big lift. That's one reason I appreciate Squarespace. It simplifies the process without sacrificing quality. You can build a professional looking website, claim your domain, and even offer services like coaching courses or events all in one place without having to cobble together multiple tools. I especially like how their email campaigns connect with built in analytics. You can stay in touch with your audience, see what people are engaging with, and make thoughtful adjustments without adding more complexity to your workflow. For me, it's really about removing barriers so I can focus on sharing what matters. If you've been thinking about building something, a project, a platform or a business, Squarespace makes it much easier to take that first step. Head to squarespace.comtfts for a free trial and when you're ready to launch, use offer code TFTs to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Well, this has been a fantastic conversation. I appreciate it. Before I end, I like to ask everybody three questions. One I make up just for you and the other two I've been asking for a long time. Are you up for that?

B (18:32)

Yeah, for sure.

A (18:33)

Excellent. Beyond all the work you do that we've discussed, you work For Stanford's Human Centered AI Institute. What is one thing going on there that has you really excited?

B (18:43)

Narrative AI is everywhere. There is a lot of hype. There is also a lot of fear. There are many emotions surrounding generative AI and what it's going to mean for all of us in the coming years and decades. I am starting a new project on the emotions surrounding generative AI. The hopes, fear, the hate, the disappointment, all the emotions, positive, negative, that are shaping how humans are interacting with AI. And Stanford's HAI Institute has been such an amazing place to really have this kind of in depth discussions with computer scientists, engineers, scientists and policy experts in trying to tease out what are some of the ramifications of these technological developments that are happening as we speak.

A (19:34)

There's so much talk about the information that's part of these AI LLMs. Not a lot have I heard about the emotion piece. So I really look forward to that research that you're conducting. Question number two. Who is a communicator that you admire and why?

B (19:48)

I think Greta Thunberg, just because I think the question of global warming and sustainability is a really hard one to get for the news cycle and for the news media in general just because there is no big event except when there is a heat wave. But otherwise it's just this long kind of unfolding process that's happening over hundreds of years. So it's really hard to muster attention for it. And I think that's exactly what Thunberg has been doing in a variety of ways, but just really to crystallize all kind of collective attention around how pressing the question of global warming is. And so that's something that I find really impressive.

A (20:28)

The ability to keep constant attention on an important issue when there isn't some big event. Absolutely. Final question. What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?

B (20:39)

Storytelling, clear deliverables. And I will add, because at the end of the day I am an academic rigor being careful and thorough in how you link the different steps together and not overstepping or making conclusions that really do not make sense given the data you have.

A (20:58)

I wouldn't expect nothing less from you, somebody who uses ethnography as a means to do the work you do. So story making sure that story is rigorous and the deliverables are clearly defined. Well, thank you for the insight and input you gave. Regarding creators. We are all creators in some way, shape or form and the issues that you bring up are important for all of us to think about in terms of how much we want to open ourselves up for the tension between authenticity and the algorithms. Really provocative and really informative. Thank you.

B (21:31)

Thank you so much for having me.

A (21:34)

Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast to learn more about the impact of social media algorithms and AI on your communication. Listen to episode 225 with Adam Alexik. This episode was produced by Kathryn Reed, Brian Campbell and me, Matt Abrahams. Our music is from Floyd Wonder with thanks to Podium podcast company. Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. Be sure to subscribe and rate us. Also follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram and TikTok. Check out fastersmarter IO for deep dive videos, English language learning content and our newsletter. Please consider our premium offering for extended deep thinks episodes, AMAs, Ask Matt anythings, and much more at Fastersmarter IO Premium. Before we wrap up, I just want to say thank you for listening. It really means a lot to hear how people all over the world are using these ideas in their own lives. It inspires me and the whole team that brings you this show. If you want more episodes and resources, feel free to follow, subscribe and explore past conversations. We're grateful for your support of Think Fast, Talk Smart.