Matt Abrahams (2:35)

We have so many friends and colleagues in common.

Matt Abrahams (2:37)

It is great to finally meet you in person. Thanks for being here.

Nir Eyal (2:41)

Absolutely, Matt. Great to be here.

Matt Abrahams (2:43)

All right, shall we get started?

Nir Eyal (2:44)

Let's do it.

Matt Abrahams (2:45)

Excellent. Much of your work centers on attention. I'd like to start by asking you to share why what we attend to matters so much. And how can we learn to control our attention not only so others don't manipulate us, but so we can have a more positive impact on our own lives.

Nir Eyal (3:01)

So I think attention is really the superpower that we're going to have to learn to master. It is what I call the skill of the century. The science behind attention blows my mind. I think that there's a common perception, or at least the brain tricks us into thinking that we perceive reality accurately. And that is not true. That in fact we know that the brain absorbs about 11 million bits of information per second. That's like reading War and Peace every second twice. Now, that's the information that's coming into your brain. It's the light entering your retinas and being processed. It's the sound of my voice. Right now. All this information is being absorbed by your mental system. However, the conscious brain can only absorb about 50 bits of information. So 11 million bits versus 50 bits. So your brain is only conscious of 0.000045% of what's actually happening in reality. And so what that necessitates is for our brain to make sense of all this information. It has to focus through this tiny keyhole of attention. And what we process is completely filtered by what matters. And what matters is determined based on what we believe. And so what really excited me about the study of attention is how malleable it is and how we can live in what seems to be completely different realities simply based on our predilections on our beliefs that focus our attention in different ways. Which is why you can have two people who experience the same exact objective reality and come away with totally different subjective experiences.

Matt Abrahams (4:30)

That difference between what we actually take in and what we perceive is amazing. I want to get into a little later how we can focus our beliefs or get more in touch with them so we can actually focus our attention more. You introduced a hook model for how to build products that create habits. And I'm wondering if they're best practices that we can apply to our communication to help us motivate people to pay attention to what we're talking about or trying to get across and how to get them to follow through. Are there ways to connect that work to communication? Specifically?

Nir Eyal (5:02)

Yes, for sure. And this was work that I was doing back when I was teaching at Stanford. I used to teach a class at the GSB on This topic of habit forming products. And then I moved over to the D school on this topic. And when it comes to communication, I think one of the elements that we see in all habit forming products is that there is an element of surprise. We call this a variable reward. And this comes from very old research. You know, this is 50 year old stuff. More actually from B.F. skinner from the 1950s, I should say, who, where Skinner took these pigeons and he put them in a little box and he gave these pigeons a little disc to peck at. And every time the pigeon would peck at the disc, they would receive a reward. And at first he could train the pigeons to peck at the disc and get the reward. That's called operant conditioning, right? That's no big deal if you have a puppy at home, if you have a spouse at home, you've probably trained their behavior by this kind of rewards type system. And so we see that the products and services we use do this as well. Now what's interesting for habit forming products specifically is that the engine for these hook models that keep us coming back is what's called a variable reward. So when Skinner introduced some bit of variability, what's called an intermittent reward, an intermittent reinforcement. Sometimes he would give the pigeon a reward and then sometimes he wouldn't. And what he found was that the rate of response, the number of times the pigeon pecked at the disc, increased when the reward was given on a variable schedule of reinforcement. And so how do we bring that back to communication? You've got to make sure that whatever you're saying is exciting, is different, is mysterious. Right? What keeps us reading a book or watching a movie or watching sports on tv. It's all about novelty. It's all about uncertainty. It's all about not knowing what's going to happen next. The first three letters of news, N, E, W. It's about what's new, it's about what we don't know that just happened. Not necessarily the most important thing, not necessarily the most useful thing. It's the most novel thing. One of the best pieces of advice I can give people who want to be good communicators is that you have to be novel. You have to be surprising in some way.

Matt Abrahams (6:56)

So that surprise, I can imagine, really comes in at the beginning. It's really important to draw people in. I'm wondering, how do you square this with the notion and all the research that says having a clear structure, a path, helps people to attend and remember? I certainly understand that novelty, our brains are wired to pay attention to it. We're driven to it. But at the same time, there's a lot of evidence that says when you provide a structure, a path, it helps people to remember and follow. So how do those two blend together?

Nir Eyal (7:25)

Absolutely. So I think what you need is that you need to make sure that things are cognitively fluent. When you have high cognitive load, it becomes confusing. If people don't understand where you're going with something, it becomes hard to follow and it's pretty aversive, they don't like it. And so having a structure, and this is definitely something we see in habit forming products, where you think about how easy it is to do a particular behavior, how the march of technology is all about shortening the distance between the recognition of a need and the satisfaction of that need. And so that's technology in a nutshell, is just shortening the effort. And so we could do the same in our talks. When people can follow along with a clear structure, that's great. But at the end of the day, if you're not telling them something new, if the message that you're trying to convey isn't surprising and novel in some way, it's called boring. Right. Even if you have great information, you have to maintain their interest by saying, here's what's coming, here's what's going to happen, here's the mystery. It's kind of weird, it's not what you expect. And keep reading for the resolution. We can do the same in any form of communication.

Matt Abrahams (8:24)

I really like how you explain the way in which structure allows to processing fluency. But at the same time, novelty engages us. And as communicators, we need to think about both. We need not just to think about, here's our message, how do I get it across, but how do I structure it to make it easier for our audiences to get through and make it interesting and engaging so they pay attention. I really appreciate how you explain that. Thank you. In your work you emphasize that identity is a powerful tool for behavior change. How can we change our identity to help us cancel out negative views we might have of ourselves to take on more productive ones? For example, how can somebody who thinks that they're a poor communicator change their mental approach and identity to see themselves differently and perhaps as a better communicator?

Nir Eyal (9:15)

So there's a lot to unpack there. And this is really kind of the basis of my new book, Beyond Belief, which is all about how the power of beliefs change what we see, feel and do. And so what you hit upon is a Very powerful concept. This concept of identity that can help us achieve our goals, that can move us closer to where we want to go, can liberate us from things that have been holding us back, but it can also backfire. And this identity concept we know can actually lead to a lot of positive change if we use it correctly. The incorrect way to do it is to latch your identity to a limiting belief. A limiting belief is a belief that saps motivation, whereas a liberating belief is a belief that provides motivation. So what we see a lot these days, unfortunately, is a lot of labels. And labels can be extremely comforting because then it absolves us of future agency. And there's a lot of comfort to saying, there's not that much I can do. That's just who I am. And we see this a lot in a chapter in the book called your labels are your limits. That if you believe, you know, I'm having a senior moment. If you believe, well, that's just my adhd, which I, by the way, have been diagnosed with ADHD as well. If we believe that we are limited that way, if that becomes who we are, rather than a symptom of something we're struggling with, it can really be a prison of our own making. So a much healthier way is to choose your identity wisely, as opposed to saying, I'm bad at public speaking, I'm a bad communicator. No, you're someone who's getting better. Right? That is the path to changing that identity is acknowledging that you are growing, that this is what getting better feels like. You're supposed to face challenges. And so one of the best things you can do is to actually keep a belief journal. That's a very powerful technique of simply recording down, yeah, maybe I messed up a few times, but look at all the times I did really well. So actually proving to yourself, not just wishful thinking, not affirmations in the mirror per se, but actually tracking, hey, there's evidence here, I'm getting better. Another thing we can do is called ilism, where we speak to ourselves in the third person. And it sounds a little silly, it sounds a little ridiculous, it's incredibly powerful. And it's actually been shown in studies to have this ability to transcend self criticism. Because when you talk about yourself in the third person, it's like you're talking about a friend. And when we offer a friend that perspective, we're much more likely to give ourselves self compassion. So saying Nir had a presentation and he stumbled a bit. But for the most Part that presentation went really well. Having that third party perspective can actually really help us change how we view ourselves by giving our brains direct evidence about what really happened versus painting that interaction through our limiting beliefs.

Matt Abrahams (11:53)

We've heard before on the show this notion of talking about yourself in the third person and how valuable it can be. I love this idea of a belief journal where you note the thing that was the challenge, then check yourself and remind yourself that there are times that it wasn't as bad or times where it was better. Are there other things we can do to help change our identity to be more in line with where we want it to be?

Nir Eyal (12:18)

Absolutely. I think another technique that really changed my life was this idea that it's an ancient technique, but the person who popularized it is a woman by the name of Byron Katie. And she has this technique called a turnaround. And now it's actually been studied quite extensively about how effective these turnarounds can be. So a turnaround is when we look at our belief. And you can use this in all sorts of aspects of your life, with interpersonal relationships, of course, to reflect upon your own beliefs about your own performance. You can use this in terms of interactions with a colleague or any situation. Any belief that you consistently find is a place where you're getting stuck in life, whatever that might be. And by the way, everybody I've ever met has limiting beliefs. I've talked to billionaires, I've talked to people who are broke. And all of us have these limiting beliefs. The problem is, of course, they're hidden. We can't see them even if they're limiting us. And so one of the things that we do is we look for that limiting belief by first starting with where are those areas of our life where we keep getting stuck? Is it we keep making a New Year's resolution to get in shape and eat right, but we don't and we won't. Is it that relationship that we refuse to repair? Is it a conversation about money that we're not having? Where is that area of your life? If you look at your New Year's resolution, that comes back year after year after year. So that's where we look for these limiting beliefs. And then what we want to do is to actually write down that limiting belief. So let's say it has to do with communication. For example, I'm a bad communicator, I'm anxious, whatever the case might be, I have a problem I'm dealing with. And then what we want to do is to try and do a turnaround on that belief, which asks us to try on for size, the exact opposite perspective. How the heck can we do that? We can do this because beliefs are not facts. We confuse facts for beliefs. And here's what I mean. A fact is an objective truth. The world is more like a sphere than it is flat. That is true whether you believe it or not, right? The earth doesn't care what you believe. That's an objective fact. On the other end of the spectrum is faith. Faith is a conviction that does not require evidence. In between fact and faith is a belief. A belief is a strongly held conviction open to new evidence. So a belief doesn't have to be true, it just has to be useful. So beliefs are tools, not truths. Beliefs are tools, not truths. So what that means is that I can try on an alternative perspective if it serves me. So as opposed to thinking I'm bad at presenting, maybe I can do a turnaround on that and say I'm not bad at presenting. Is there any chance, even a 1% minuscule little chance that might also be true? Yes, of course it could be. The fact that I'm getting up on stage, the fact that I'm trying to give a presentation, that means I'm improving. That means I'm way better than maybe where I was a while back. And so trying on those perspectives is isn't necessarily about finding the one true answer. Maybe you did mess up on a presentation that happens, but rather what you're doing is collecting a portfolio of perspectives that now you can choose from one that serves you better than the old belief because beliefs are tools, not truths.

Matt Abrahams (15:18)

I love that idea that we can create a portfolio of perspectives and help us adjust and adapt our beliefs. And this idea of beliefs as tools, not truths is liberating. One of the things I so like about your work is that you create practical tactical tests in your work on belief, you introduce a test we can use to determine if certain thoughts are helpful or not.

Matt Abrahams (15:43)

Can you explain this test?

Nir Eyal (15:45)

I actually co opted the work of Byron Katie and she gives this beautiful four part test that when we identify that belief that maybe there was a grievance that someone did to us, right? That I'm reminded about this instance with my mom A few years ago she had her 74th birthday and I wanted to do what a good son would do and I wanted to buy her flowers for her birthday. I lived in Singapore and she was in Orlando, Florida where I grew up. And I stayed up till one in the morning calling the florist and making sure it would Be delivered on time and looking at Google reviews and I went to bed thinking, you know what, Nir? You're a good son, you did a nice deed. I called her up the next day, wished her a happy birthday and said, hey, did you receive the flowers? And she says, yes, I did receive the flowers, but you know what? They were half dead, so maybe you shouldn't order from that florist anymore. I immediately looked at that situation, right? The power to see, feel and do. I immediately saw and felt something very specific. I believed that my mother is obviously too judgmental and hard to please. Wouldn't you agree? That's a very judgmental thing to say. And I saw her through that light, but that wasn't serving me that in fact, by me having, by coloring that perspective that trapped me because now I was dependent on her changing her behavior so that I could be happy. That's impossible. That's a recipe for misery. So instead what I did was ask myself these four questions that Byron Katie poses. The first question is, is it true? So what's the belief? My mother is too judgmental and hard to please. The first question, is it true? Of course it's true. I told you, Matt. Clearly my mother is very judgmental and hard to please. Obviously. Okay, well let's move on to the second question. The second question is, is it absolutely true? Sounds like the first question, but it's actually not. Is it absolutely true? Is it absolutely true that my mother is too judgmental and hard to please? Absolutely.

Matt Abrahams (17:35)

Always.

Nir Eyal (17:36)

There's no other interpretation. Okay, maybe there's another interpretation. Maybe she was just trying to save me some money and making sure that I wasn't getting scammed by this florist. Maybe. I don't know. Maybe. Okay, maybe a possibility. Well, the third question. Okay, now we're on question three. Who am I when I have this belief? When I believe my mom is judgmental and too hard to please? I'm short tempered, I'm not very patient. I say things that I later regret. So I'm not a very good person. I don't like who I am when I believe my mother is judgmental and too hard to please. Okay, now the fourth and final question. Who would I be without that belief? Well, I guess if I could wave a magic wand and make that belief disappear, I guess I'd probably be a nicer person. I'd be who I really am as opposed to devolving into my 17 year old version of myself and say things off the cuff that didn't go well, right? You can imagine how I reacted. And I told her, actually, I said, that's the last time I ever buy you a present. And of course that went over just about as well as you'd expect. And I later regretted that. So if I didn't have that belief, I'd be much better. I'd like myself more. And so that's when we're then invited to do a turnaround. That's when we're invited to then say, well, if there's even a chance that belief is not true and I am better for it when I don't believe it, why not give it a chance? Does it matter if it's true? No, because beliefs are tools, not truths. So it doesn't actually matter if my mother is judgmental and too hard to please, because most of our decisions in life are not based on facts. Should I marry this person? Is there a fact that could inform that? No, it's a belief. Should I start this business? Should I move to this city? These are all based on beliefs. They're not based on facts. And so when we realize that beliefs are just tools, not truths, I think it expands our worldview, it expands our option set. We become more at peace, more accepting, realizing that we're not looking for absolutes, that we're not trying to prove facts, we're just trying to find the beliefs that serve us.

Matt Abrahams (19:28)

It strikes me that we have to be motivated to get outside ourselves, that these beliefs are really just tools, not truths. There's a safety and security that comes from seeing the world the way I see it. Seeing my mother as somebody who's ungrateful might help me, which is not true in my case, but might help me tell the story of my life. That helps me feel okay, we're going

Matt Abrahams (19:54)

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Matt Abrahams (21:20)

Before we end, I like to ask everybody the same questions. One, I create for you and two, I've been asking everybody since the beginning of the show.

Matt Abrahams (21:27)

Are you up for that?

Nir Eyal (21:28)

Absolutely.

Matt Abrahams (21:29)

One of the things I so appreciate about your work is how purposely you communicate your ideas. You use lots of analogies and make things relevant. You talked about how many readings of War and Peace it would take for our brains. You use a lot of alliteration. Talk to me about your thought process on how you communicate the topics and tools that you use.

Nir Eyal (21:51)

So my MO has always been the same, and that is to follow my curiosity. I'm not one of these authors that writes about what I know. I write about what I want to know. And I think readers can detect that, right? I think a reader or listener can determine when someone is just kind of going through the paces because that's what they have to do versus I get excited. I get lit up about this because I feel like I've made a discovery, right? This has improved my life, right? Like, I know how painful it can be to have one of these problems. So to me, that's always been my guiding light is I always write about my problems. And thankfully I've got no shortage of those. I can only have infinite stuff to write about. And so when I tackle something that I'm actually struggling with and I'm driven by the curiosity of solving it for myself, to be honest with you, Matt, that's why I write.

Matt Abrahams (22:36)

I think some of the best work comes from when it helps ourselves. But what I find so powerful in what you do is the way in which you communicate. It really helps people to understand it. Let me ask the second question. Who's a communicator that you admire and why?

Nir Eyal (22:51)

So that would have to be Daniel Kahneman, the late, great economist I found him to be. He wasn't flashy, but he was very precise. And I loved how he took very complex ideas and he stripped away all the jargon. He made these ideas very useful without oversimplifying them. And I think he changed how we see ourselves. And to me, that's amazing. That's the highest form of communication, is the kind of clarity that changes human behavior. And I think he's my role model there.

Matt Abrahams (23:20)

I so appreciate his work and the work he did in conjunction with Tversky as well was just fascinating and fundamentally changed the way we view human behavior. Final question. What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?

Nir Eyal (23:37)

First three ingredients. Okay, so we've touched on bits and pieces of this, but let's see if we can put it all together. I would say the most important first ingredient is truth. That what you say has to be true, but that's not good enough. We've heard a lot of people who say things that are true, but they lack the other two ingredients. So I think the second ingredient is that it has to be useful, that it has to be something that's actually practical. The third ingredient to me is novelty, which we talked about at the very beginning of our conversation around those variable rewards. So I think that's the recipe. It has to be true, it has to be useful, and it has to be novel.

Matt Abrahams (24:08)

Truth, novelty and usefulness absolutely critical to success. And I really appreciate you taking the time to help us better understand ourselves and our motivations and how our beliefs impact who we are and what it is we do. I wish you great success on your new book, Beyond Belief and thank you for your time.

Nir Eyal (24:27)

My pleasure. This is a lot of fun. Thank you.

Matt Abrahams (24:32)

Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast to learn more about beliefs and motivation. Please listen to episode 104 with Katie Milkman and episode 115 with Suu Ki Hua. This episode was produced by Kathryn Reed, Ryan Campos and and me, Matt Ibrahims. Our music is from Floyd Wonder. With special thanks to Podium podcast company. Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. Be sure to subscribe and rate us. Also follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram and check out fastersmarterio for deep dive videos, English language learning content and our newsletter. Please consider joining our Thinkfast Talk smart learning community at FasterSmarter IO learning. You'll find video lessons, learning quests, discussion boards, Matt's AI coach and book club opportunities. Again, that's FasterSmarter IO learning to become part of the Think Fast Talk Smart learning community.

Matt Abrahams (25:30)

Hi Matt here. I can't believe that this month is the six year anniversary of Think Fast Talk Smart's launch. As we start the new year, we're excited to bring you even more ways to learn, practice and grow your communication and career skills. We'll now be releasing eight episodes a month, coming out on Mondays and Thursdays.

Matt Abrahams (25:48)

For those of you who like to

Matt Abrahams (25:49)

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