← Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques
Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques
289. Better with Age: Why Joy Matters More Than Longevity
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- [00:02]
Matt Abrahams
Hi Matt here. We're excited to celebrate a milestone. Think Fast. Talk Smart is approaching our 300th episode. To mark the occasion, I'll be hosting two free Ask Matt Anything events on June 3rd at 8am or 8pm Pacific. We'll run these on LinkedIn and YouTube, open to everyone around the globe. Before taking your questions, I'll share one of my favorite new communication structures for advancing ideas and arguments. Anyone joining can submit questions online during the event, and a few of our learning community members will have the opportunity to ask me their questions live on video. Don't miss this opportunity to be part of this live AMA on June 3rd. Be sure to sign up on LinkedIn, YouTube or faster smarter IO live. Now a word from one of our sponsors. Their support covers the cost of production of allowing us to bring you quality content free of charge. Language isn't just about words, it's about connection, opportunity and credibility. That's one reason I like Babbel. It focuses on real world communication. Not just vocabulary drills, but practical conversations you can actually use, whether that's collaborating internationally, traveling for work, or building relationships across cultures. The lessons are Short A about 10 minutes so they fit into busy schedules and they're designed by more than 200 language experts with tools for listening, speaking, reading and writing. It adapts to how you learn and helps you track real progress over time. For many of our listeners, whether you're strengthening English skills, adding another language for professional growth, or staying connected globally, it's a practical way to keep moving forward. Babel has over 25 million subscriptions sold worldwide over offers 14 languages and every course comes with a 14 day money back guarantee. If you've ever thought about learning another language, this is a perfect opportunity to start right now. Babel is offering up to 60% off your subscription@babel.com TFTS that's Babbel B A B B E L.com TFTS for up to 60% off rules and restrictions apply.
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A truly fulfilling and meaningful life is not just about lifespan, it's about joy span My name is Matt Abrahams and I teach Strategic Communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. Today I am really excited to chat with Carrie Bernwright. Carrie is a world renowned gerontologist and advocate for the elderly who has spent
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over 20 years improving the lives of older adults. She is a former professor of Geriatric
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Medicine at the University of California, Irvine and currently at the University of Chicago. She specializes in using technology and compassionate
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communication to change how society Values and interacts with elders.
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Her latest book is called the Art and Science of Thriving in Life's Second Half. Welcome, Carrie. Thank you so much for being here. We have friends in common and I am so thrilled to actually be talking to you in person, not just via text and on the phone.
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Carrie Bernwright
Oh, well, as a listener of your podcast, I feel especially excited.
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Matt Abrahams
Well, thank you. Should we get started?
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Carrie Bernwright
Please.
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Matt Abrahams
I would love to start with the concept of joy span. What is it and how is it different from lifespan and healthspan?
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Carrie Bernwright
As a gerontologist, I spent the last 30 years talking about lifespan, how long we live, and it's a good start. But more recently, in the 1980s, we have added the concept of health span, which has been really helpful because you want to live as healthy as you can for as long as you can physically and cognitively. The problem was I would have a lot of people I would work with who lived long lives and were in pretty darn good physical health and were miserable. So then the question is, why is it that some people are enjoying these long lives and some people are suffering so much? So I really dug into the literature on well being, which I know is one of your interests, and what I learned was there's so much that we can be doing to impact the quality of our long lives. So joy span is simply how many years you enjoy living. And it's a biggie. And joy is often not clearly defined. So I wanted to start with that because what joy is not is toxic positivity. Happy, happy, pretend things aren't hard. Because growing older is hard. There's a lot of challenges. I don't know anybody who escapes all the challenges of growing older. But joy, as defined by the American Psychological association is well being and life satisfaction. And I love that. Desmond Tutu and the Dalai Lama wrote a book called the Book of Joy, which is such a good book. And they really differentiate between happiness and joy. So happiness being often circumstantial or outside in, whereas joy is more akin to contentment and being able to feel some well being regardless of circumstance. And that's when I knew I had my word. Joy span, because it is the regardless of circumstance that we're after.
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Matt Abrahams
Really interesting. So it's not about the context, it's about the internal perspective, you know, and people who listen and watch know that I love words. And a word like joy span is one that's very inviting. It makes people curious, and I think that opens them up to learning the many things you have to share. Speaking of sharing, you have created a joyspan matrix which consists of four components. Grow, connect, adapt and give. And in your awesome book you dedicate a chapter to each. So I know we won't do it justice in just this brief conversation, but can you give us a little bit of an overview of of those four components?
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Carrie Bernwright
Yes. I just scoured the literature on well being in longevity. Why, why, why? Some people from the outside have the same health conditions, the same socioeconomic status, the same exercise, eating and yet such different experience. And what I found was there were these, they grouped into four elements. And I spent a ridiculous amount of wasted time trying to make a cute acronym. And one day I was just sitting in my coffee shop where I write and I thought in this occasion it is just the words that it is. So it is four words that the listeners can take to heart and they're all verbs because they all take action, they take effort, and there is a little way to remember them. And it starts and ends with a G. So they're G's on the outside. And then I, the author happened to be from California, so there's CA in the middle. So we're going to start with the G. And that first is grow. So what the literature shows us that those people who enjoy their long lives, who age well, are people who are committed to continue to develop themselves. So as younger people, we're all the time saying, Matt, climb up on the diving board, do this, do that, things you've never done. As we get older, understandably, sometimes we lean out. And the reason for it is that we have been programmed through a multi billion dollar anti aging industry telling us that it is bad to get old, it is ugly, it is less than, you don't have as much to give. And because of that we then are not leaning in to keep growing. But the reality is there are many things that get better as you get older. And we'll probably get into that later because it's not public, because it's not lucrative. So we started with grow, continuing to keep going. Next we're going to the C. That's connect. So we know from the literature that connection between humans is a non negotiable regardless of how introverted you are. You can be lonely in a marriage or in a group, or you can be fulfilled. But we require some back and forth and that we simply can't rest on the oars of longtime friendships. Because when you, like my patients, live into your 90s, you outlive your friends or they move away, or they have cognitive impairment. The sentence I use here is to be that friend who picks up the phone, who remembers it's been two years since your father's passing. Who says, may I drive you to chemo? Who says, I'm making a book club, do you want to join? You gotta put yourself out there.
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Matt Abrahams
Proactive and persistent.
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Carrie Bernwright
Yes. Then brings us to the third. We've got grow, connect. The A is adapt. So that literature was actually out of a researcher in Israel who found that people who could enjoy their long lives were people who could adapt.
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Matt Abrahams
So not set in your ways.
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Carrie Bernwright
Not set in your ways, but also recognizing that circumstances are going to come regardless of all your burpees and green juices and plunges and all the things we're doing, there will be changes and they're not things you necessarily anticipate, even things. For example, when I was writing the chapter on adaptation, our 25 year old daughter was diagnosed with a brain tumor. And it was devastating because I thought, that can't possibly be. And then here I'm writing about adapting. It's like, no, that is life. Another word for aging is living. And you're going to have these things come your way that you didn't expect. And when they do, not if they do, when they do, how we adjust to those is what predicts how we will experience our long life and indeed how we'll be remembered. So this ability to adapt to these things that you never asked for really matters and then gets to our final G and that is give. And so there's a big literature around purpose and contribution. And again, when we recognize all that we have to give as we get older and we reject the notion that we have less to give, we recognize the world needs what older Matt, older Carrie have to offer. For example, as we get older, we have the potential for increased problem solving, increased appreciation of connection, increased and deepening spirituality, appreciation of beauty, humility. I mean, can you imagine if we all step up and lean into our humility, what this would do as a nation? So society needs us to give what this older version has to offer.
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Matt Abrahams
So these four together make the joyspan matrix. And we can work on each of these components to help us build and appreciate our joy span. I have to ask, is your daughter okay?
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Carrie Bernwright
Yes, thank you for asking. So she was packed up to go to medical school, got this diagnosis, we were all devastated. And she wasn't able to then go because she then instead moved home and was on the patient side instead of on the doctor side. And as life does, we adapted and she adapted. And so now she has an MRI every six months. She went to a different school. That's next to her neurosurgeon. She's gotten used to some of the side effects. So did we pick it? No. Is it life? And there's still so much goodness. Yes. So thank you. She's doing just fine.
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Matt Abrahams
I'm glad to hear that. And what an example of adapting. And speaking of examples, one of the things that was so touching about your book is with each of those four areas, you not only explain them, but you use a person, a real person, and walk through how they are realizing and actualizing that. And one of the things that brought a smile to my face is you use your own mother, who is in her 90s, as an example as well as you were writing. I just want to get a little meta about your thought process. Why did you decide to tell personal stories of people to help understand these concepts? Because it really helped me to get it.
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Carrie Bernwright
Yes, people love aspirational examples, and we have that in other parts of our lives. We look ahead to our professors, and yet we haven't traditionally had as many role models so readily available. But now, happily, with things like social media and a recognition from this beauty industry that there is great beauty in so many of us. And so with my mom, it was such. It's a mutual learning. And so she'll be 97 next month. And she wasn't particularly fitness guru. She didn't eat perfect. She had a cocktail and a dessert most nights. And she wasn't even on a path that was particularly great. But happily, as I 30 years ago would learn things in my studies, I would say, oh, mom, did you know that something as simple as doing a gratitude journal can statistically change? Da, da, da. So she started incorporating these things, and now I'm the one always learning from her because she is the best version of herself right now. She is vital, hilarious, humble, beautiful, radiant. And I felt I couldn't keep her to myself, so I started sharing her on social media. And now millions and millions of people are watching her. And what they always say is, I want to be like her. And what I type back is, you can. It isn't accurate that aging is just something that happens to you. In fact, the research shows us that between 14 and 25% of how you will age is genetic. So the rest, we have something that we can do both with our physical, what we do, moving these bodies, continuing to learn. But a lot of the emphasis right now is the exterior, the meat bag, the carrying case. And it does But I never go to a funeral and have people say, did you know that guy's VO2 max? It was really impressive. They say things like, wow, when nobody was looking. He mentored me, he took me to the side and he gave me a shot. A lot of these interior things that end up being the biggies in life.
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Matt Abrahams
Wow. The power of stories to motivate. And I love that you've made your mom a social influencer and that she's embraced it. And how lovely to be able to teach her and have her teach you simultaneously.
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Carrie Bernwright
Oh, she teaches me so much. So just yesterday I was at her house and I had the thought, she doesn't complain. And she did. She used to years ago when she was only in her 50s. And so I said, how is it that you don't complain? And I just in one shot turned my camera on her and she talked about how she just inside her mind says, oh, Betty, knock it off. And so then there have been thousands of people who have laughed, oh, Betty, knock it off.
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Matt Abrahams
Another technique that you use in your writing, which I love because I am a quote collector, you use lots of quotes. And some of my favorite quotes in your work are quotes you had. And one that really stood out to me is your habits have more power to shape your health than your genes ever will. And you've talked a little bit about the percentages there, but can you give us some insight into what are those habits? And are there habits that we should adopt for mind, body and spirit and connection?
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Carrie Bernwright
Yes. And the step one that I want you to adopt today is how you think about growing older. Because most of us understandably see it as all decline. And we've been taught that and to think name something, it's going to go downhill. Well, when you expect that, that is really what happens.
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Matt Abrahams
It's a self fulfilling prophecy.
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Carrie Bernwright
The problem is it simply isn't true. So I think in terms of ways that you could make a difference in your own aging is to just today say, every time I hear my internalized ageism. So I think of it, we all talk about AI this is IA for example, you can't find your car for a moment in the parking lot and you think, oh, there it is, I'm losing it. No, you couldn't find your car when you were 23. And so you could replace that thought with, don't be silly, it's not an aging thing. Or when you say to yourself, it's too late. Or I say to myself, for example, I'll be looking at my phone and it will flip around and I'll see like 25,000 chins under here. And my first reaction is like, oh, no. And then I think, of course I'm in my late 50s. That's what Next do. It's no personal shame. It's not a tragedy. It's not ugly. It's okay. And it's so liberating to combat our internalized ageism. And nobody's going to do it for us. So a 20 year old is not going to go, aha, growing older. It needs to come from us, those who are aging. And so, for example, I work with a lot of people in their 80s and 90s, and some younger people think it's such a compliment to say, oh, Matt, you don't even look like you're 85. The thing is, we've already been young. The goal is not to stay young. So what we say now is when people say, you don't look 85, you say, this is what 85 looks like. Or they say, you don't even seem old. I want to lean into it because that's how we're going to revolutionize and change. Aging is a new longevity. It's a new way to maximize all 100 years.
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Matt Abrahams
I really like that approach and I appreciate the specifics there because I find myself saying some very similar things.
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Carrie Bernwright
We all do. I do, too. And there's no way we couldn't, because ever since you were a little boy, they read you a story and said, hansel and Gretel went out and this old witch with a long nose was gonna eat them. And that was our introduction to old.
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Matt Abrahams
My mother is in her late 80s. And I'll say, hey, you're doing great for somebody in your 80s. And she hates that last part. And it reminds me to stop saying it.
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We'll be right back to finish our conversation, but first, a quick word from one of our sponsors. Their support allows us to bring you this show free of charge. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. One thing I see often is that people are doing thoughtful, meaningful work, but it's not always easy for others to see or understand it. And that's really what personal branding comes down to. Not self promotion, but clarity. Making it easier for people to find you, understand what you do, and connect with your ideas. That's where Squarespace comes in. It gives you a simple way to build a professional website, claim your domain, and create a clear, cohesive home for your work, whether you're writing, speaking, teaching, or building something of your own. And if your work involves others, you can offer services, schedule sessions, and get paid all in one place without adding a lot of complexity behind the scenes. So you're not just sharing ideas, you're learning who your audience is and what resonates with them over time. With Squarespace, your online presence actually reflects the value of what you have to offer. Head to squarespace.comtfts for a free trial, and when you're ready to launch, use offer code TFTs to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Hi, Matt here. If you enjoyed my recent conversation with Gene and Cherry from the Tiger Sisters podcast, I think you'll really love their show. Jean and Cherry are known as the Internet's Wall street and Silicon Valley big sisters. They take big and sometimes complicated ideas around money, power and love and turn them into clear, practical tools you can apply way. And together they built Tiger Sisters into a top ranked business podcast. Two fun facts. I coached Sherry for her TEDx talk and I had the chance to join them on their show. They ask great questions and bring a perspective you don't always hear. New episodes drop every Monday on their YouTube channel and across all audio platforms. And now back to our conversation.
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Cara, I knew this was going to be a great conversation. It certainly has been. I'd like to end with three questions, as you know, as a listener. The first one I'm going to make up just for you. The other two I ask everybody. You up for that?
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Carrie Bernwright
Yes.
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Matt Abrahams
Excellent.
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I'm really curious, as somebody who's studied joy and joy span, what is the one thing that you have found in your own life that has really made a difference in your experience of joy and do you think is setting you on the path to having a healthy, long joy span?
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Carrie Bernwright
If I had to summarize it in one word, it would be choice. That we have a choice in how we live and experience these long lives. Even if we lose our vision, even if we are confined to bed, even if when our partners pass away, we have a choice in how we respond to those. So that's like Viktor Frankl's man search for meaning, where he says, the one thing that we have here, he was in a concentration camp and he said we can choose that spiritual freedom of how we respond. I just, I find that so comforting.
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Matt Abrahams
Thank you for that. It's very empowering and I appreciate you choosing choice as your answer. Question number two who's a communicator that you admire and why?
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Carrie Bernwright
I am a big fan these days of Helen Muren, who is an actress who is leaning into being beautiful and radiant and strong and irreverent in her 80s. And when people say, you're young, she'll say, no, I'm not, and I don't want to be. I've been young, I'm old. And to use those words, to take back that it can be absolutely. It's our definition of what it means and that it's not. If somebody says, you look old, that is not an insult, or you don't have to take it as such. And it's not a compliment to say you look good for your age. You just, you look good, and who cares even how you look? But I. When Helen Mirren speaks, I listen.
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Matt Abrahams
Absolutely. Not only is she a phenomenal actress, she's got a wonderful, resonant voice. And I love that she is adopting what you said, choice. She's making choices to really lean into her age and her profession.
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Carrie Bernwright
And she's changing it for people who come behind us. And that's something that we can do for our children, is that we can change. I'm seeing it in my lifetime because in the beginning, 30 years ago, it was people sitting in wheelchairs in the hall, slumped all the way over with loud TVs blaring nonsense. And it's not. We're changing that. And so within our lifetimes, we're changing and how great we can set it up for our kids and grandkids.
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Matt Abrahams
Absolutely. Absolutely. My wife and I are making conscious choices to help make sure our kids see their grandparents aging, but also our aging, so they can see what that's like and the choices they can make. Final question. What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?
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Carrie Bernwright
Okay. Could I change it to do a successful communication recipe? When you're working with older adults, you may do that.
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Matt Abrahams
Absolutely. Again, making a bold choice, but yes, please.
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Carrie Bernwright
So the first is, listen, close your mouth for a minute and slow down and listen. The second is particularly if, like me, you have a higher voice to lower your voice, we lose hearing in our higher register. So what happens is I'm talking to somebody, and to make it louder, I come higher, then they really can't hear me. Go a little bit lower down here. And so I do this with my patients of. It's great to see you today, Mrs. Jones. How are you? I don't have to go louder. I can just go lower. And then the third component is to always be eye level with people who are older, because this thing of standing up above and leaning over down to somebody's chair or wheelchair. It doesn't set up the right vibe. So if you can just to get to face to face and then we can hear better, we can relips, we can connect better face to face.
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Matt Abrahams
The three L's I love it. Listen, lower your voice and get to that level and I think that's advice that transcends any communication. I really like that idea of lowering your voice, being conscious of not just what I'm saying but how I say it can really help somebody.
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Carrie Bernwright
Yes, my husband has a very deep voice and occasionally I can't get to the place I need to and so I'll just quietly say to him and then he says the same thing and the person can understand completely.
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Matt Abrahams
Carrie, this has been fantastic. Not only have you taught us tips and tools that we can use when working with people who are older, but you've also shared with us things we can do to increase our joy span and really make the best of the lives that we have. And the communication advice transcends age. It's all about just how to connect and be present. Thank you so much.
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Carrie Bernwright
Thank you so much.
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Matt Abrahams
Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast to learn more about aging and communication.
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Please listen to episode 176 with Bob McCann.
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Because Carrie provided so many useful tips, tools and techniques, we created a Quick Thinks episode with more of her advice and guidance.
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Check it out. This episode was produced by Kathryn Reed, Ryan Campos and me, Matt Abrahams. Our music is from Floyd Wonder.
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With special thanks to Podium podcast company. Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. Be sure to subscribe and rate us. Also, follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok and
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Instagram and check out fastersmarterio for deep
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dive videos, English language learning content and our newsletter. Please consider joining our Think Fast Talk
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Smart learning community at Fastersmarter iLearning. You'll find video lessons, learning quests, discussion
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boards, an AI coach and book club opportunities. Again, that's Fastersmarter IO learning to become part of our Think Fast, Talk Smart Learning community. Thanks for spending time with us today. I hope you took as much value as I did from this episode. There were so many more important ideas that we've created a Quick Thinks episode that continues my conversation on this important topic. Hope you'll give it a listen. And thanks as always for being part of our Think Fast Talk Smart community. Before we wrap up, I just want to say thank you for listening. It really means a lot to hear how people all over the world are using these ideas in their own lives. It inspires me and the whole team that brings you this show. If you want more episodes and resources, feel free to follow, subscribe and explore past conversations. We're grateful for your support of Think Fast, Talk Smart.