Thinking Class

#133 - Max Klinger - The British Establishment Re-Racialised Britain And Now It Can't Control What It Created

Max Klinger is a lawyer and political analyst. He writes at Max Klinger's Newsletter on Substack and his work has appeared in The Spectator.Britain's progressive establishment spent a decade re-racialising public life. It racialised Brexit, policing, and every institution in the name of anti-racism. Now the wider British public has adopted the same lens and applied it in the opposite direction, and the establishment is horrified. In this conversation we think out loud about:In what specific ways the British establishment has gone off at the deep endThe real-life impact of anti-racist and DEI policies on the British publicHow the progressive left re-racialised British public life — and is now horrified that the wider public has adopted the same lensAsh Sarkar, Novara Media, and the hypocrisy of racialising everything until the racialisation turns against youTwo-tier policing, two-tier sentencing, and the cases of Valdo Calocane and Henry NovakThe Islamisation of Britain — jihadism, blasphemy law by stealth, and the demographic projectionsThe future of British Jews and whether the trajectory is recoverableWhether the English, Scottish, Welsh, and Irish are allowed an ethnic identity in the same way as every other groupThe emergence of English national identity and why suppressing it is the most dangerous thing the establishment can doFind Max Klinger:Substack: https://maxthinks.substack.comX: @MaxE2ReviewRelated episodes:— #102 David Betz — What Britain Will Look And Feel Like When Things Get Nasty: https://youtu.be/gUtltMklkcM?si=Hz7qNjqOh-7WaYTz— #106 Driss Ghali — France's Identity Crisis: Violence, Islamism & The Risk Of Social Fracture: https://youtu.be/Y2hS_7WkkDA?si=h1FvChJjhLL20hty— #129 Andrew Hussey — France Is Fracturing: https://youtu.be/U5aKUYgHL8M?si=hph--ETBQjeVpJAWThinking Class is a long-form interview podcast on the cultural, historical, and moral forces shaping England, Britain, and the wider Western world. Hosted by John Gillam.▶ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ThinkingClass✍️ Substack: https://thinkingclass.substack.com🎧 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/37vvzrlxpo8eORDoTDRtbH🍎 Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/thinking-class/id1717021615🐦 X: https://x.com/thinkingclassesNew episodes every Thursday at 3pm.

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#132 - Andrew Hussey - France Is Fracturing Along Ethnic And Religious Lines

2w ago00:57:50Tap to summarize

Professor Andrew Hussey OBE is Dean of the University of London Institute in Paris and Director of the Centre for Post-Colonial Studies at the University of London's School of Advanced Study. Born in Liverpool, educated at the University of Manchester and Jean Moulin University Lyon 3, he is the author of The French Intifada (Faber, 2014), Paris: The Secret History (Penguin, 2006), The Game of War: The Life and Death of Guy Debord (Jonathan Cape, 2001), and Fractured France. He was awarded an OBE for services to cultural relations between the United Kingdom and France. He writes for the Observer, the Guardian, and the New Statesman. His forthcoming book, The White In-Between Sea, explores the real life of the South of France from Corsica to the Spanish border.In this conversation, Andrew and I think out loud about: Why France is fracturing into fragments that do not speak to each otherThe three Frances: the citadels, the banlieues, and the forgotten white working-class peripheryHow French prisons became the engine room of radicalisationThe difference between Maliki Islam and Wahhabi puritanism and why it mattersWhy the French Republic's promise to make everyone a Frenchman is being tested to destructionThe RN rallies: Hussey spent time with the supporters and found not fascists but ordinary peopleWhether the progressive left's grievance politics has made integration permanently impossibleThe Charlie Hebdo demonstration and the moment Hussey converted to French RepublicanismNaboukh la France: what the ancient curse really means and why it mattersWhat all of this tells Britain about what is comingFind Professor Hussey's work:The French Intifada: The Long War Between France and Its Arabs - https://amzn.to/4vOVW84Fractured France: https://amzn.to/4aG8g2jRelated episodes:#077 Driss Ghali — How France Was Colonised: https://youtu.be/NycF1IiVcnQ?si=DbynKwta-eU671iQ#106 Driss Ghali — France's Identity Crisis: Violence, Islamism & The Risk Of Social Fracture: https://youtu.be/Y2hS_7WkkDA?si=AWgwO8VbKnV0U40w#102 David Betz — What Britain Will Look And Feel Like When Things Get Nasty: https://youtu.be/gUtltMklkcM?si=bObsQUD8C1-77RLaThinking Class is a long-form interview podcast on the cultural, historical, and moral forces shaping England, Britain, and the wider Western world. Hosted by John Gillam.▶️ Subscribe on YouTube🎧 Follow on Spotify📰 Read on Substack🐦 Follow on XNew episodes every Thursday at 3pm.

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#131 - Gregory Clark - Why Everything The West Believes About Social Mobility Is Wrong

3w ago00:58:16Tap to summarize

Professor Gregory Clark is a British-born economic historian at the University of California, Davis and holds a DNRF Chair at the Danish National Research Foundation and a professor at the Historical Economics and Development Group (HEDG) at the Department of Economics, SDU. Furthermore, he is a Visiting Professor at London School of Economics (LSE) and a Distinguished Professor Emeritus at UC Davis. He is the author of A Farewell to Alms: A Brief Economic History of the World and The Son Also Rises: Surnames and the History of Social Mobility.In this conversation Greg and I think out loud about:Why some societies became rich while others remained poor — and why it has little to do with institutionsWhy Indian cotton mills in the 1920s could not match Lancashire despite identical technologyWhat Clark discovered from studying more than 422,000 English people across four centuriesWhy social mobility appears largely unchanged since the Middle AgesWhy Denmark and Britain have almost identical mobility rates despite radically different welfare statesWhy family size, birth order, and the death of a father have no measurable effect on life outcomesWhy the upper classes decline at the same rate the lower classes rise — and what that symmetry meansWhether England has been a meritocracy since 1300Why governments may be attempting to solve problems that are largely resistant to policyClark's forthcoming book — and why it is proving difficult to publishFind Professor Clark's work:A Farewell to Alms: https://amzn.to/4vak59qThe Son Also Rises: https://amzn.to/4okonIxLondon School of Economics: https://www.lse.ac.uk/people/greg-clarkRelated episodes:#130 Iain McGilchrist — There Is A Great Deal Of Ruin In The Western World: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2277944/episodes/19292333#034 Garett Jones - Why Migrants Make Countries Like The Ones They Left: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2277944/episodes/15347853#127 Jonathan Rose — What The British Working Class Lost And Who Is Responsible: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2277944/episodes/19175544Thinking Class is a long-form interview podcast on the cultural, historical, and moral forces shaping England, Britain, and the wider Western world. Hosted by John Gillam.▶ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ThinkingClass✍️ Substack: https://thinkingclass.substack.com🎧 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/37vvzrlxpo8eORDoTDRtbH🍎 Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/thinking-class/id1717021615🐦 X: https://x.com/thinkingclassesNew episodes every Thursday at 3pm.

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#130 - Iain McGilchrist - The Industrialisation Of Man, The Loss Of Faith, And What The Western Mind Has Done To Itself

4w ago01:27:37Tap to summarize

Dr Iain McGilchrist is a former Fellow of All Souls College, Oxford, an associate Fellow of Green Templeton College, Oxford, a Fellow of the Royal College of Psychiatrists, a Consultant Emeritus of the Bethlem and Maudsley Hospital, London, a former research Fellow in neuroimaging at Johns Hopkins University Medical School, and since September 2025 the Chancellor of Ralston College. He lives on the Isle of Skye. He is the author of The Master and His Emissary: The Divided Brain and the Making of the Western World (Yale University Press, 2009) and The Matter with Things: Our Brains, Our Delusions, and the Unmaking of the World (Perspectiva Press, 2021). He writes at Channel McGilchrist and on Substack.Something has gone wrong with the Western mind. Not recently and not with any particular government or policy but rather at a deep structural level, over centuries. Iain McGilchrist has spent his career as a psychiatrist, neuroscientist, and literary scholar trying to make sense of it.In this conversation we think out loud about: The difference between the actions and thoughts produced by the left and right hemispheres of the brain The most visible symptoms of civilisational decay in Britain and the WestThe key inflection points in history that set the West on a road to ruin, having previously defined the path to greatnessWhat the Romantics were longing for in the industrial era — and why nostalgia is not a bad thing but necessaryWhy we need more new Romantics to show us how to live more fully human lives in the machine ageWhat the industrialisation of man has done to our soulsWhat the world we have built is doing to our minds and why mental health diagnoses are so prevalent amongst the youngThe mistake made by the West in becoming post-ChristianWhy Iain would rather die than sever his relationship with the faith — What Iain has not changed his mind onFind Dr McGilchrist's work:Channel McGilchristMcGilchrist SubstackThe Master and His EmissaryThe Matter with ThingsRalston CollegeRelated episodes:#126 Gary Gerstle — The Iran War Is Ending The Global Economy As We Know It#110 Renaud Camus — The Disaster: The Great Replacement, Elite Failure & The Crisis Of The West#042 Peter Hitchens - How Britain Witnessed A Moral And Cultural RevolutionThinking Class is a long-form interview podcast on the cultural, historical, and moral forces shaping England, Britain, and the wider Western world. Hosted by John Gillam.▶ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ThinkingClass✍️ Substack: https://thinkingclass.substack.com🎧 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/37vvzrlxpo8eORDoTDRtbH🍎 Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/thinking-class/id1717021615🐦 X: https://x.com/thinkingclassesNew episodes every Thursday at 3pm.

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#129 - William Clouston & Firas Modad - The Iran War Is Breaking The Global Economy And Britain Has No Plan

May 2801:08:55Tap to summarize

William Clouston is the leader of the Social Democratic Party (SDP) in the United Kingdom and a member of the advisory board for Restore Britain. Firas Modad is an analyst and political economist focused on the Middle East and global geopolitics. He runs his own consultancy, Modad Geopolitics, helping companies and investors understand the commercial impact of political, economic, and security risks they face. Firas Modad is a host on Podcast of the LotusEaters.Britain built its economy on the assumption that global stability was permanent. The Strait of Hormuz has been effectively closed for nearly three months. William Clouston and Firas on what is actually happening, how Britain ended up this exposed, what a sane government would do, and what the crisis reveals about a deeper civilisational loss of will.We think out loud about:- What the Strait closure actually means militarily and whether it will ever reopen- How Britain ended up with no strategic reserve, no energy self-sufficiency, and no industrial base - Why successive governments stopped thinking like custodians of a nation- What a sane government would actually do on energy, manufacturing and borders- The ideological double whammy: free trade purism and net zero combined are lethal doe Britain - How the financial sector was ideologically captured and failed to see the crisis coming- Whether the integrated global economy is finished and what will replace it - How the faith crisis underpins the nation's morale crisis and why power stations alone will not fix it- What ordinary people should actually begin doing differently in their own lives in responseFollow their work:- SDP Investment State Green Paper: https://www.sdp.org.uk- Firas Modad Geopolitics: https://modadgeopolitics.com- The Lotus Eaters: https://lotuseaters.comRelated episodes:- #126 Gary Gerstle — The Iran War Is Ending The Global Economy: https://youtu.be/KbCyaKcj0E8?si=Hzc1TNvhkuK90Wa- - #109 William Clouston — Why British Politics Governs Against The National Interest: https://youtu.be/Rm2Qp-1qnJw?si=5W0MSjBKe0tyFj1k- #112 Firas Modad — Britain Is Losing Control At Home And Abroad: https://youtu.be/KMOwGx9ZtMI?si=MKl__0WCHBbdRnmuThinking Class is a long-form interview podcast on the cultural, historical, and moral forces shaping England, Britain, and the wider Western world. Hosted by John Gillam.▶ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ThinkingClass✍️ Substack: https://thinkingclass.substack.com🎧 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/37vvzrlxpo8eORDoTDRtbH🍎 Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/thinking-class/id1717021615🐦 X: https://x.com/thinkingclassesNew episodes every Thursday at 3pm.

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#128 - Lord Tony Sewell - Life At The Bottom In Broken Britain - The White Working Class, The Road Man Culture, And The Collapse Of England

May 2101:08:59Tap to summarize

Lord Tony Sewell CBE is a British educational consultant, author, and life peer. Born in Brixton to Jamaican parents, he trained as a teacher and worked in some of London's most challenging schools, during which time he completed his PhD on black masculinities and schooling at the University of Nottingham. He helped transform education in Hackney as part of the team that established the Learning Trust and the iconic Mossbourne Academy, a flagship of the Academy movement. He is the founder and chair of Generating Genius, a charity that has helped hundreds of young people from disadvantaged backgrounds into STEM careers at top universities. In 2021 he chaired the government's Commission on Race and Ethnic Disparities, producing what became known as the Sewell Report. He was awarded a CBE for services to education in 2016 and elevated to the House of Lords as Baron Sewell of Sanderstead in 2022, where he sits as a member of the Joint Committee on Human Rights. His latest book is Black Success: The Surprising Truth, published by Swift Press.In this conversation, Lord Sewell and I think out loud about: Why white working-class boys are still at the bottom How the numbers were deliberately fudged to hide the problem The three causes behind poor performance: poor schools in post-industrial areas, family breakdown, and no one championing their cause The self-loathing of middle-class white professionals and how their luxury beliefs that harm those below them Anti-white animus in the institutions and class warfare dressed up as progressivism The road man culture cutting across every ethnicity and what John saw on his road trip for his The Call Of England travelogueWhy Sewell thinks Netflix' Adolescence missed the point entirely A modern-day dissolution of the monasteries. Can the institutions can be trusted or do they need to be replaced?Individual agency and community-led regeneration and what the state cannot fix The collapse of Christianity as the root cause underneath all of itWhat Sewell changed his mind on and why he came back to ChristianityFind Lord Sewell's work: Commission on Race and Ethnic Disparities report: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-report-of-the-commission-on-race-and-ethnic-disparities Centre for Social Justice — White Working Class Boys report: https://www.centreforsocialjustice.org.uk/newsroom/white-working-class-boys-still-at-the-bottom-of-the-class-says-race-report-chief Generating Genius: https://www.generatinggenius.org.ukAbout Thinking Class: Thinking Class is a long-form interview podcast exploring the cultural, historical, and moral forces shaping England, Britain, and the wider Western world. Hosted by John Gillam, the show features serious conversations with thinkers, historians, and commentators grappling honestly with the condition of our civilisation.▶ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ThinkingClass✍️ Substack: https://thinkingclass.substack.com🎧 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/37vvzrlxpo8eORDoTDRtbH🐦 X: https://x.com/thinkingclassesNew episodes every week.

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#127 - Jonathan Rose - Literacy Is At Record Lows But It Wasn't Always. What The British Working Class Built And How It Was Destroyed

May 1401:01:13Tap to summarize

Jonathan Rose is William R. Kenan Professor of History at Drew University in New Jersey. He edits the journal Book History and was founding president of the Society for the History of Authorship, Reading, and Publishing. He is the author of several books including The Literary Churchill and The Intellectual Life of the British Working Classes.For the better part of two centuries, the British working class sustained one of the most remarkable intellectual traditions in any civilisation. Miners read Shakespeare. Engine-men debated Darwin. Workmen's institutes built libraries of tens of thousands of volumes. Literacy was not a middle-class gift — it was seized, organically, as a form of human dignity claimed on their own terms. Then we severed it. In this conversation, we think out loud about: What the autodidact tradition looked like at its height — what a working-class reader's intellectual life in 1880 or 1910 actually was Why they chose Shakespeare and Milton rather than what their betters told them to read — and what that tells us about the nature of the impulse How the educated classes responded by creating modernism — deliberately obscure, deliberately difficult — to keep the inheritance out of reach The mechanism by which reading formed people with a high internal locus of control — and whether the loss of that mechanism is what literacy decline is really documenting The Hitchens argument: whether the tradition was destroyed from above by curriculum changes, or voluntarily relinquished from within — and whether those two things can be separated The role of Methodism as the engine of working-class self-improvement — and what its near-collapse means for any prospect of recovery Whether the autodidact tradition is still alive, operating now through podcasts and the internet rather than workmen's institutes What recovery would actually require — and Jonathan Rose's own changed mind on whether the impulse is dyingFind Jonathan Rose's work: The Intellectual Life of the British Working Classes — Yale University Press: https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300098952/the-intellectual-life-of-the-british-working-classes/ The Literary Churchil: https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300196535/the-literary-churchill/ Drew University faculty page: https://www.drew.eduAbout Thinking Class: Thinking Class is a long-form interview podcast exploring the cultural, historical, and moral forces shaping England, Britain, and the wider Western world. Hosted by John Gillam, the show features serious conversations with thinkers, historians, and commentators grappling honestly with the condition of our civilisation.▶ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ThinkingClass✍️ Substack: https://thinkingclass.substack.com🎧 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/37vvzrlxpo8eORDoTDRtbH🐦 X: https://x.com/thinkingclassesNew episodes every week.

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#126 - Gary Gerstle - The Iran War Is Ending The Global Economy As We Know It & What Comes Next

May 801:11:58Tap to summarize

Gary Gerstle is Paul Mellon Professor of American History Emeritus at the University of Cambridge and the author of The Rise and Fall of the Neoliberal Order — one of the most clarifying accounts written of how a set of economic assumptions came to dominate Western politics, and how they are now collapsing. He is currently Kluge Chair of American Law and Governance at the Library of Congress, working on his next book, Politics in Our Time: Authoritarian Peril and Democratic Hope in the Twenty-First Century, forthcoming from Penguin Press.The neoliberal order is over — the set of ideas that captured both Reagan and Clinton, both Thatcher and Blair. Gary Gerstle on what that means for Britain, America, and the communities the order hollowed out — and whether what comes next is a swing of the pendulum or a rupture of a different kind. He ends the conversation by calling liberty a fragile flower. Draw your own conclusions.Find Gary Gerstle's work:The Rise and Fall of the Neoliberal Order: https://amzn.to/4u7wWIA9780197519646 Books: https://amzn.to/3Rp07bGAbout Thinking Class: Thinking Class is a long-form interview podcast exploring the cultural, historical, and moral forces shaping England, Britain, and the wider Western world. Hosted by John Gillam, the show features serious conversations with thinkers, historians, and commentators grappling honestly with the condition of our civilisation.▶ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ThinkingClass✍️ Substack: https://thinkingclass.substack.com🎧 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/37vvzrlxpo8eORDoTDRtbH🐦 X: https://x.com/thinkingclassesNew episodes every week.

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#125 - Theodore Dalrymple & Rob Henderson - The Ideas That Claimed To Help Britain & America's Poor And Made Everything Worse

May 101:15:25Tap to summarize

Theodore Dalrymple is the pen name of Dr. Anthony Daniels — physician, psychiatrist, and social diagnostician. He spent years working in the hospitals and prisons of Birmingham before his essays for City Journal established him as the foremost chronicler of what he called the culture of the British underclass. His writing has also appeared in The British Medical Journal, The Times, New Statesman, The Observer, The Daily Telegraph, The Spectator, The Salisbury Review, National Review, The New English Review, and The Wall Street Journal. Theodore has authored numerous books, his book Life at the Bottom is twenty-five years old this year, including Life at the Bottom, The Worldview That Makes the Underclass, Our Culture, What's Left of It, and Spoilt Rotten: The Toxic Cult of Sentimentality.Rob Henderson is a Senior Fellow at the Manhattan Institute, a contributing editor at City Journal, and the author of the memoir Troubled: A Memoir of Foster Care, Family, and Social Class — a national bestseller selected by The Economist as one of the best books of 2024. He is best known for coining the concept of luxury beliefs: ideas that confer status on the educated class while the costs are borne entirely by those at the bottom. He has written the foreword to the 25th anniversary edition of Life at the Bottom.In this conversation we think out loud about:What Life at the Bottom got right and what 25 years have added to itWhy the non-judgmentalism Dalrymple documented has spread from the clinic into the general cultureLuxury beliefs: the ideas that confer status on the educated class while the costs fall on everyone elseWhy the disability industry at elite universities is the latest expression of the same pathologyThe tattoo economy and what it reveals about cultural contagion moving upward through societyWhat honest hope looks like and what a serious individual-level response might actually requireFind Theodore Dalrymple's work:Life at the Bottom — 25th Anniversary EditionCity JournalThe Salisbury ReviewFind Rob Henderson's work:Troubled: A Memoir of Foster Care, Family, and Social ClassRob Henderson's Newsletter (Substack)City JournalAbout Thinking Class: Thinking Class is a long-form interview podcast exploring the cultural, historical, and moral forces shaping England, Britain, and the wider Western world. Hosted by John Gillam, the show features serious conversations with historians, legal scholars, economists, theologians, and public intellectuals — concerned with long-term patterns over headlines and hot-takes.If you value serious conversations about Britain, the West, and the forces shaping our future, why not subscribe: ▶️ Subscribe on YouTube🎧 Follow on Spotify📰 Read on Substack🐦 Follow on X

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#124 - Michael Lind - Why Britain And America Keep Betraying Their Working Class

Apr 2401:28:08Tap to summarize

Michael Lind is a political theorist, historian, and one of America's most rigorous independent analysts of class, democracy, and political economy. He is a Professor at the Lyndon B. Johnson School of Public Affairs at the University of Texas at Austin, a co-founder of the New America think tank, and a visiting professor at the University of Austin. He has taught at Harvard and Johns Hopkins and previously served as an assistant to the Director of the Center for the Study of Foreign Affairs at the US Department of State.His books include The New Class War: Saving Democracy from the Managerial Elite, Land of Promise: An Economic History of the United States, The Next American Nation, and among more than a dozen works of non-fiction, history, and political theory. His writing has appeared in UnHerd, Tablet, The Wall Street Journal, The Atlantic, Foreign Affairs, American Affairs, and The New York Times, among many others.This is the first episode in a four-part Thinking Class series on social class in Britain and the West.In this conversation, we think out loud about: What the managerial class actually is and how it displaced the old bourgeoisie Why Brexit and Trump were intra-capitalist conflicts, not working-class revolts How Britain's failure to properly industrialise shaped its class settlementWhy AI will automate the credential class before it automates the working class What the working class once had — and what was taken from it Whether anything can dislodge the managerial settlement in Britain or AmericaFollow Michael LindBuy Michael Lind's books: https://amzn.to/4tkJFHBFollow Michael Lind's work at UnHerd: https://unherd.com/author/michael-lind/About Thinking Class: Thinking Class is a long-form interview podcast exploring the cultural, historical, and moral forces shaping England, Britain, and the wider Western world. Hosted by John Gillam, the show features serious conversations with historians, legal scholars, economists, theologians, and public intellectuals — concerned with long-term patterns over headlines and hot-takes.If you value serious conversations about Britain, the West, and the forces shaping our future, why not subscribe: ▶️ Subscribe on YouTube🎧 Follow on Spotify📰 Read on Substack🐦 Follow on X

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All episodes

#133 - Max Klinger - The British Establishment Re-Racialised Britain And Now It Can't Control What It Created

#132 - Andrew Hussey - France Is Fracturing Along Ethnic And Religious Lines

#131 - Gregory Clark - Why Everything The West Believes About Social Mobility Is Wrong

#130 - Iain McGilchrist - The Industrialisation Of Man, The Loss Of Faith, And What The Western Mind Has Done To Itself

#129 - William Clouston & Firas Modad - The Iran War Is Breaking The Global Economy And Britain Has No Plan

#128 - Lord Tony Sewell - Life At The Bottom In Broken Britain - The White Working Class, The Road Man Culture, And The Collapse Of England

#127 - Jonathan Rose - Literacy Is At Record Lows But It Wasn't Always. What The British Working Class Built And How It Was Destroyed

#126 - Gary Gerstle - The Iran War Is Ending The Global Economy As We Know It & What Comes Next

#125 - Theodore Dalrymple & Rob Henderson - The Ideas That Claimed To Help Britain & America's Poor And Made Everything Worse

#124 - Michael Lind - Why Britain And America Keep Betraying Their Working Class