Podcast Summary: Thinking Fellows

Episode: Has Lutheranism Failed?
Date: January 12, 2026
Hosts: Caleb Keith, Scott Keith, Adam Francisco, Bruce Hillman
Produced by: 1517 Podcasts
Duration: ~45 minutes

Main Theme & Purpose

This episode tackles a provocative question seen throughout Lutheran circles and broader Christianity: "Has Lutheranism failed?" The discussion addresses various aspects—declining church attendance, closure of congregations, Lutheranism's cultural influence (or lack thereof), and whether these trends amount to "failure." The hosts aim to set baseline definitions for church "success" versus "failure," evaluating these concerns through the lens of Lutheran theology and practice.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining “Failure” for the Church

• Goal of the Church—Universal & Local

  • Adam Francisco (04:13):

    • Cites Luther: The church is "the gathering of sheep who hear the shepherd's voice."
    • The church nurtures the saints (via gospel proclamation and sacraments) and serves God's mission to save the lost.
    • Dual purpose: serving the elect and participating in God's salvation mission (missio dei).

  • Bruce Hillman (08:28):

    • Stresses distinction between what the church "is" (by grace) and what it "does" (out of obedience).
    • Failure can only be measured in obedience to the church’s God-given mission, not in its inherent existence.

  • Scott Keith (10:42):

    • Walks through the Augsburg Confession, tying justification, sacraments, and church existence.
    • "The church is the congregation of the saints in which the Gospel is purely taught and the sacraments are correctly administered." (11:43)
    • The local congregation’s distinctives: contextual pastoral care, preaching tailored to the congregation, but fundamentally the same as the universal church’s purpose (16:29).

  • Memorable Quote:

    “At the end of the day, you have to sit back on…that it is enough that the gospel be preached and the sacraments rightly administered. And I'd say in a lot of ways that's what we really rely on here at our church…Sometimes more can happen, but that much is enough.”
    – Scott Keith (17:34)

2. Lutheranism’s Public Perception & Influence

• Recognition and Regional Variation

  • Caleb Keith (18:16):
    • Notes the lack of Lutheran brand recognition outside the Midwest; on the coasts, “Lutheran” might mean anything from “Catholic Protestant” to “progressive Christians.”
  • Bruce describes Lutheranism’s divergent reputations—“progressive” (news stories about ELCA) or simply unknown (19:55). He cites Mark Noll on Lutheranism’s historical “retreat from culture” under leaders like Walther, leading to a split between “progressive” and “quietist”/confessional Lutherans (21:00).

• Failure as Brand Confusion?

  • Bruce (23:24):

    • Argues the real problem is “insularity,” not failure at marketing.
    • Critiques “arrogance” in conservative Lutheran circles, seeing themselves as doctrinally pure and therefore closed to outside learning or cooperation.
    • “There is an arrogance in conservative Lutherans…about how their doctrines are so true...the practice…in practical life, there’s not an openness oftentimes to learn.” (24:19)

  • Scott (26:41):

    • Pushes back: warns that engaging with or letting the culture determine doctrine or methodology causes drift and error.
    • Highlights Lutheranism’s rich contribution to social good in U.S. history, countering claims that Lutherans aren't “helping people.”

• Interaction with Other Christian Groups

  • Bruce (29:38): Points out resistance among Lutherans to contextualization or working with non-Lutheran Christians, e.g. for evangelism strategies.
  • Caleb gives examples where Lutherans have refused participation, such as declining to provide content for the YouVersion Bible app (35:00).

3. Does Lack of Recognition Mean Failure?

• Scott (40:25):

  • Reframes "failure": Is the lack of recognition hampering the church’s core mission (pure preaching, sacraments)?
  • Admits to widespread catechetical failures—Lutherans less able to communicate why being Lutheran matters, resulting in weak retention and growth.
  • “There's a catechetical failure…when it comes to teaching people what it means to be Lutheran and why it’s important to stay Lutheran...” (43:05)

• Adam (44:43):

  • Suggests Lutheranism’s tools for robust witness are all there, but differences in public presence are often because Lutheran pastors are focused on pastoral care, not “celebrity” roles.

  • Wonders why other small traditions (e.g., Orthodox Presbyterians) have well-known intellectuals but Lutherans seem absent from public discourse.

  • Memorable Story:

    • At Oxford, the Lutheran society booth was placed with non-Christian and world religion tables rather than among Christian groups, illustrating public misunderstanding or invisibility of Lutheranism in some contexts (48:00).

4. Role of Lutheran “Public Intellectuals”

• Caleb (51:12):

  • Notes bright Lutheran students typically are channeled into internal Lutheran colleges/seminaries, limiting broader connections and networking.
  • Contrasts with Catholics or Reformed Protestants, who often build networks at elite secular universities, leading to greater influence and recognition in public discourse.

• Scott (53:50):

  • Warns against making “public intellectual” status a part of the ordinary pastoral role.
  • Praises the historical and ongoing work of figures who build bridges, like Rod Rosenbladt.

5. Ultimate Answer: Has Lutheranism Failed?

• Consensus: Lutheranism has not failed, but does face significant challenges:

  • Catechetical decline—insufficient teaching on the distinctive value of Lutheranism.
  • Decline in attendance—mirrors wider U.S. Christianity trends.
  • Limited public influence—due to historical insularity and educational networking.

• Key Point: The decline or lack of recognition is not equivalent to failure so long as the church remains obedient to its central calling: preaching the gospel and administering the sacraments.

  • Summative Quote:

    “I would say Lutheranism in the United States has not failed, but does have things it could do better or improve or a future that is bright…I feel like the reason to do an episode like this is because people are afraid that the future of Lutheranism is doom and gloom...I kind of feel like it’s the opposite.”
    – Caleb Keith (60:14)

Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• “The church is the congregation of the saints in which the Gospel is purely taught and the sacraments are correctly administered.”
  — Scott Keith (11:43)

• “Failure…is really an obedience question, the evaluation of a failure is really an obedience question.”
  — Bruce Hillman (59:44)

• “As long as you are preaching the gospel and rightly administering the sacraments, that statement is true. Right. That God will preserve it. But you can't alleviate yourself from any responsibility if you are called to the role to do that, and it’s not happening. That’s the job.”
  — Scott Keith (59:19)

• “Everybody’s welcome, but not every idea is welcome.”
  — Adam Francisco (51:07)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:19 – 04:13: Framing the question; Lutheran decline & lack of influence explained.
• 04:13 – 18:16: Defining the church’s purpose and metrics for “failure.”
• 18:16 – 36:37: Lutheranism’s public image, insularity, interaction with other Christians, real-world branding examples.
• 36:48 – 44:43: Recognition and catechetical “failure”—what’s missing in Lutheran identity and outreach?
• 44:43 – 51:12: Vocation of Lutheran pastors vs. public intellectuals; public witness and the “branding” issue.
• 51:12 – 58:18: Education, networking, and why Lutherans are less influential in broader Christian scholarship/discourse.
• 58:18 – End: Final reflections—defining real "failure," the limits of measurement, and hope for the future.

Conclusion

The episode powerfully frames “failure” in obedience and faithfulness to Christ’s command—rather than mere numbers or influence. The hosts recognize specific struggles in American Lutheranism (catechesis, engagement, public voice), critique some historic insularity, but ultimately emphasize the enduring faithfulness of Lutheranism’s core distinctives. Their parting message is hopeful: the church’s future is bright so long as it remains clear on its mission and open to growth.

For listeners:
If you're interested in Lutheran theology, grappling with the complexity and reality behind the “decline” narrative, or want a lay-accessible, nuanced discussion, this episode provides rich context and encouragement.