Podcast Summary: Thinking Fellows – "How Education Problems Affect Handing Down the Faith"

Date: December 30, 2025
Duration: 59 min

Overview

This episode takes a deep dive into the crisis of education—both secular and Christian—and how these struggles are affecting the transmission of the Christian faith to younger generations. Hosts Caleb Keith, Scott Keith, Adam Francisco, and Bruce Hillman draw connections between shifting public education philosophies, the decline of rigorous catechesis, and the challenge of getting families invested in teaching the faith at home. The conversation is deeply personal, engaging, and laced with humor and real-world advice for families, pastors, and teachers.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Decline in Reading & Literacy Instruction

• Opening Premise:
  There is a decline in both general literacy and specifically Christian literacy, visible in children and adults alike.
• Reference to a John Stossel report about dropping phonics and declining reading rates (03:05).
  • Modern education has moved away from teaching phonics toward emphasizing a "love of reading," often without first equipping kids with basic reading skills.
  • Political entanglements have hindered a return to more effective, traditional methods.
  • Example: Mississippi's return to phonics shows significant academic improvement (04:00).
  • Quote:
    "How do you teach somebody to love reading if they can't read?" – Caleb Keith (03:33)
  • The hosts agreed that education fads often prioritize philosophical novelty over practical outcomes.

2. Impact on Christian Education

• Concerns in Christian Settings:
  The hosts note a parallel trend in churches, with faith education being watered down through comic books, coloring pages, and activity-based lessons, rather than robust memorization and narrative teaching (09:00).
• Catechesis—once focused on memorization and deep narrative flow—is now often adapted to be more "fun," with the unintended consequence of shallow faith formation.

3. Shift in Teacher Preparation: Subject Expertise vs. Pedagogical Fads

• Historically, teachers were subject experts who knew their material deeply. Now, emphasis is on education degrees and methods rather than mastery (11:00).
• Quote:
  "You can’t have a love for something you don’t participate in. You can’t love it abstractly." – Scott Keith (12:06)

4. The "Buy-In" Problem: Family Involvement in Education

• Catechesis struggles now largely due to lack of parental buy-in rather than lack of resources or pastoral effort (13:49).
  • Parents struggle to prioritize faith education with so many competing interests (sports, academics, extracurriculars).
  • There is also a widespread sense of parental inadequacy and fear of "doing it wrong," leading to outsourcing religious instruction entirely (14:45).

5. Personal Testimonies: How Catechesis Used to Work

• Adam and Scott share their experiences of Lutheran schooling, where daily religion classes, memorization, and pastoral leadership made the faith "organic" to their identity (20:00).
• Quote:
  "It was a daily grind of this stuff. I don’t know how you get that without a similar kind of daily grind, maybe supplemented in the home if you’re in public school." – Scott Keith (22:56)

6. Cultural Shifts: Competing Values

• Discussion of the book "Family Unfriendly" and Caleb’s own upcoming book, highlighting how societal pressure to optimize children’s secular futures has crowded out attention to faith (25:00).
• Quote:
  "We do all these things...under the guise that it’s going to make them successful and happy...but the data comes out that that stuff doesn’t actually make them successful and happy." – Caleb Keith (26:00)

7. Church’s Shyness in Telling People What to Do

• The church has pulled back from setting strong expectations, fearing it will drive families away—even as many leave anyway (28:21).
  • Quote:
    "Just tell people what to do. I also think it is totally okay to associate certain things with going to church, like happiness..." – Scott Keith (28:23)
  • Modern data actually confirms the well-being benefits of religious commitment (28:59).

8. The Resource Abundance & The Problem of "Facilitation"

• Modern churches have an abundance of resources, but there's an over-reliance on pre-packaged videos and materials, with human teachers abdicating the role of active instructors (30:34).
  • The Bible Project videos are great, but should supplement—not replace—real teaching (31:21).
    • Memorable exchange:
      "Don’t be the sage on the stage. Be the guide on the side." – Caleb Keith quoting a cliché (32:14)
  • Teachers are told not to "dumb it down" too much or not to be too academic, but the hosts argue it’s time for higher expectations (33:05).
    • "Maybe it’s time for those four year olds to study up." – Caleb Keith (33:05)

9. The Necessity of Immersion and Early/Foundational Learning

• Bruce notes that language acquisition studies show 90% of input needs to be comprehensible for effective learning; most kids arrive at confirmation with less than that in knowledge—hence the struggle (37:00).
  • Shifts in society mean "immersive" Christian environments don’t exist the way they once did; one hour a week doesn't suffice for catechesis (38:50).

10. Prescriptive Advice: What Should Families, Pastors, and Churches Do?

• Read Aloud:
  Start with the basics—read the Bible, catechism, hymnal, etc., out loud at home, regularly, as a family (42:12).

  • Even reluctant readers benefit from the practice.
    • Quote:
      "Begin reading the Bible and the catechism and various other religious materials…out loud to your family for a fixed amount of time on a schedule during the week..." – Scott Keith (42:12).
  • It's less about being an expert and more about consistency and presence.

• Memory Work:
  Reinstitute weekly family Bible verse or catechism memorization for everyone—adults included (47:57).

  • "You’d be surprised what a three-year-old can learn to say out loud…that means they can learn Bible verses." – Scott Keith (48:15)

• Model Faith as a Priority:
  Parents’ genuine faith and prioritization is critical—the strongest indicator that kids will keep the faith is seeing their own fathers (and mothers) take it seriously (54:47).

• Don’t Underestimate the Value of Time:
  The effectiveness of religious upbringing is more about intentional time spent than methodology (53:29).

  • Quote:
    "At the end of the day, if you’re not putting that much time into it...you’re not going to see a huge payout from it." – Bruce Hillman (53:29)

Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On the education shift:
  "You can’t have a love for something you don’t participate in. You can’t love it abstractly." – Scott Keith (12:06)
• On catechesis fading:
  "It was a daily grind of this stuff ... I don’t know how you get that without a similar kind of daily grind..." – Scott Keith (22:56)
• On church expectations:
  "Just tell people what to do. I also think it is totally ok to associate certain things with going to church, like happiness." – Scott Keith (28:23)
• On spiritual and secular benefit:
  "Well, the data tells you too, that they’re going to be happier if they stay in their faith their whole life..." – Caleb Keith (28:59)
• On resource abundance:
  "Any attempt to teach a Bible lesson ... completely just pressing play on Bible Project video..." – Scott Keith (31:21)
• On models for home faith education:
  "Begin reading the Bible and the catechism and various other religious materials...out loud to your family for a fixed amount of time..." – Scott Keith (42:12)
• On time over method:
  "At the end of the day, if you’re not putting that much time into it...you’re not going to see a huge payout from it." – Bruce Hillman (53:29)
• On modeling faith:
  "The major factor was that they saw their dad taking their faith seriously..." – Bruce Hillman, referencing sociological studies (54:47)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:19 – 07:54: Crisis in public education philosophies; decline of phonics and its parallels in Christian education.
• 09:00 – 14:45: How shallow content and lack of parental buy-in affects transmitting the faith.
• 16:44 – 24:02: Personal stories of catechesis, memorization, and immersive Lutheran school experiences.
• 25:49 – 30:34: Cultural prioritization of secular "success" over faith; churches’ hesitance to hold families accountable.
• 30:34 – 37:00: The overreliance on outside digital resources; loss of real teaching.
• 37:00 – 40:27: The necessity and challenge of immersion; comparison to language acquisition.
• 40:27 – 45:47: Practical prescriptions: read-aloud, catechism, and family engagement.
• 47:03 – 53:29: Further advice: memory verses, available resources, deeper home engagement.
• 53:29 – End: The bottom line: it’s about prioritizing faith and time spent, not just resources or perfect technique.

Tone

• Engaged, conversational, pastoral, and honest.
  Banter provides comic relief, but the hosts are direct and at times blunt about the challenges facing faith formation today.

Concluding Wisdom

"At the end of the day, if you’re not putting that much time into it...you’re not going to see a huge payout from it."
– Bruce Hillman (53:29)

The overarching message: families must move beyond outsourcing faith education to professionals or resources, reclaiming direct, consistent, and immersive faith practices at home. There is no magic curriculum or quick fix, but rather the old, proven methods of reading, memorization, and modeling genuine faith in daily life.

Resources Mentioned

• Bible Project videos (for supplemental use)
• Concordia Publishing House Bible History Curriculum
• 1517’s own resources: podcasts, Field Guide to the Bible, academy courses
• Rod Rosenblatt “Verses Every Christian Should Know” flashcards
• Susan’s Children’s Storybook Bible

Show notes promise links to these for additional support.

This episode is essential listening for anyone concerned about the future of Christian faith transmission—and offers both the philosophical challenge and practical tools to spark renewal at home and in church.