Thinking Fellows Podcast – "Lethal Force" (January 20, 2026)

Episode Overview

In this episode, the Thinking Fellows – Caleb Keith, Scott Keith, Adam Francisco, and Bruce Hilman – tackle a challenging ethical and theological question: Can Christians use deadly force to defend themselves or others? The conversation draws from biblical passages, historical perspectives (including Luther and Aquinas), personal anecdotes, and Lutheran theology, especially the doctrines of vocation and the two kingdoms. The hosts openly explore the complexity of Christian ethics around violence, pacifism, vocation, and self-defense, highlighting the scriptural ambiguity and the persistent tension between civil and spiritual responsibilities.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Question: Christianity, Self-Defense, and Lethal Force

• Timestamps: 05:17–06:53
  • Caleb frames the core question: “Can Christians use deadly force? ...Is there a history or context of Christian pacifism? ...Does a Christian have the ability not only to defend themselves, but should they, for instance, use deadly force to defend a church?”
  • The challenge: balancing trust in God’s providence with the impulse or obligation to defend oneself and others.

2. Personal Leanings towards Pacifism and Contextual Ethics

• Timestamps: 06:53–08:20
  • Bruce clarifies he might be more pacifist than the others, but won’t issue “a blank check”; absolute pacifism isn’t warranted, but neither is a blanket justification for violence.
  • “There has to be a moral justification that fits within Christ’s ethic in the New Testament.” (Bruce, 07:21)

3. The Double Effect and Aquinas

• Timestamps: 08:23–09:39
  • Bruce introduces Aquinas’ “double effect” principle: actions causing harm can be justifiable if a greater moral good is achieved—e.g., protecting the innocent.
  • Caution: “Are we a good judge of that?” – recognizing openings for abuse.

4. Legal and Emotional Realities of Lethal Force

• Timestamps: 09:39–13:22
  • The hosts discuss the impossibility of thinking through layered ethics in the heat of violence; instincts and premeditated training take precedence.
  • Adam: "You don’t have the time or the luxury when your life is on the line ...to go through your moral checklist."

5. Scriptural Ambiguity and Turning the Other Cheek

• Timestamps: 13:22–15:45
  • Scott points out that scriptural support is ambiguous or incomplete—some over-interpret “turn the other cheek”; others rely too heavily on Old Testament precedents.
  • “At the end of the day, there is no prohibition in the scriptures against defending oneself from utter violence.” (Scott, 14:23)
  • Discussion of Jesus’ instruction to buy swords (Luke 22): “Maybe that’s a prohibition on collecting too many weapons, huh, Adam?" (Scott, 15:03)

6. Persecution, Witness, and Public Ethics

• Timestamps: 16:00–18:47
  • Adam recollects the film/book “Silence” (and stepping on a crucifix to save others), illuminating tensions between public witness, conscience, and ethical compromise.
  • Bruce: “It’s a public witness of an apostasy in that culture ...Yet from a faith-based way, it’s a potent symbol of the Christian’s call to ...give up a theology of glory for a theology of the cross.” (18:13–18:47)

7. The Cross Ethic vs. Instinct and Civil Duty

• Timestamps: 20:26–24:49
  • Romans 12 explored: “Repay no one evil for evil…live peaceably with all…”—but, as Scott notes, this is more about revenge/vengeance than instantaneous self-defense.
  • Story: Scott and Caleb recall witnessing a mass shooting at an IHOP, making clear that in crisis, civil obligation (protect your family) overtakes abstract theological calculation:
    “...In my car with my teenage son...what was occurring to me was my first civil obligation ...to protect my son.” (Scott, 23:15)

8. Instinct vs. Ethics, and Theological “Ideals”

• Timestamps: 24:49–27:14
  • Bruce distinguishes between instinctual action and ideal moral actions (“...a person isn’t doing ethics if they’re just acting on instinct.”).
  • Scott and Bruce both agree: there’s no “clear path in scripture” and the question is messy in both real time and reflection.

9. Vocation, Civil Law, and Christian Responsibility

• Timestamps: 27:17–32:18
  • Caleb grounds Christian obligations in the Lutheran doctrine of vocation: “The needs of your neighbor, their life, are a demand placed on you.”
  • Government and self-defense: “If you’re an American, the government has extended the power of the sword to its citizens...you are an agent...” (Caleb, 29:27)
  • Scriptural references: e.g., 1 Timothy 5:8, Exodus 22, Nehemiah 4, Luke 22—supporting care for dependents and protection of the home, but always paired with counter-examples (e.g., “turn the other cheek”).

10. Narrow Limits: Self & Immediate Care vs. Vigilantism

• Timestamps: 33:31–34:39
  • Both US state law and biblical wisdom limit self-defense rights to one’s immediate family/circle; vigilantism is not justified, and the “duty to protect” rarely expands beyond dependents.

11. Government Law vs. Christian Morality

• Timestamps: 34:39–37:08
  • Bruce challenges the group: even if government allows self-defense, that doesn’t make it “morally appropriate” for the Christian.
  • Example: Norway’s ultra-strict self-defense laws clash with American instincts but also highlight the limitations of grounding personal ethics solely in local law.

12. Luther, Just War, and Historical Precedent

• Timestamps: 39:07–41:56
  • Adam presents Luther’s teachings on just war and resistance during Ottoman invasions: defending family, home, and neighbor is a “Christian act of love and mercy.”
  • Luther distinguishes between resisting immediate aggression (justified) and running “offensively” with crusader zeal (condemned).
  • Notable quote: “Stab them, slay them, cut off their heads, do whatever you can and consider it a Christian act of love and mercy for your neighbor...” (Adam, summarizing Luther, ~41:30)

13. Lutheran Distinctives: Vocation, Two Kingdoms, and the Limits of Ethics

• Timestamps: 41:56–44:39
  • Scott: ethics within Lutheranism resists strict systematization; the doctrine of vocation and distinction between church and world mean the question is often left purposely unresolved.
  • “Ethics is sort of like this formal study...The problem is it just doesn’t work within the context of Lutheranism...many of which are left vague in the text of Scripture.” (Scott, 44:39)

14. Wrestling with Christ’s Call and the Accusation of the Law

• Timestamps: 46:40–53:06
  • Bruce: “There’s nothing distinctively Christian in that specific witness of ‘defend your homeland’...that’s what I struggle with when I think about ethics.”
  • The “give to all who ask” radical love ethic; the struggle with how to apply that to family and property.
  • Caleb and Bruce agree: all ethics are law, and Christians live in tension, simul iustus et peccator, never entirely free of sin, trusting their justification is only in Christ.

15. Sin Boldly: Christian Comfort Amid Imperfect Action

• Timestamps: 53:19–56:49
  • Sin boldly (Luther): No act—including justified self-defense—can ever be wholly sanctified or free from sin. Comfort is found only in Christ’s forgiveness, not in perfect ethics.
  • “I can’t give you an answer that will comfort you in every use of self-defense according to the law, but I can give you an answer that will comfort you ...according to the gospel, which is that you have been forgiven, you have been set free to serve your neighbor...” (Caleb, 55:23–56:16)

16. Real-World Consequences: Psychological Cost of Taking Life

• Timestamps: 56:49–59:45
  • Bruce shares a debrief from his crisis team: an FBI agent, despite being “totally justified” in killing to save a life, is haunted by how little it “mattered” internally. Echoing the point that “even if you do a good act, there’s still a cost somehow involved in that.”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Scriptural Ambiguity:

  • “At the end of the day, there is no prohibition in the scriptures against defending oneself from utter violence.” – Scott (14:23)

• On Instinct and Ethics:

  • “A person isn’t doing ethics if they’re just acting on instinct. They’re doing a moral action, but they’re not doing ethics.” – Bruce (24:49)
  • “No act—including justified self-defense—can ever be wholly sanctified or free from sin.” – (summation, 55:23–56:16)

• On Vocation and Obligation:

  • “The needs of your neighbor, their life, are a demand placed on you.” – Caleb (27:47)
  • “If you have children, the lives of your children are a demand by God placed on you.” – Caleb (29:27)

• On Luther’s Advice:

  • “Stab them, slay them, cut off their heads, do whatever you can and consider it a Christian act of love and mercy for your neighbor...” – Adam (summarizing Luther, ~41:30)

• The Problem with Systematic Ethics:

  • “Ethics ... just doesn’t work within the context of Lutheranism ... many [moral questions] are left vague in the text of Scripture.” – Scott (44:39)

• On Sin Boldly:

  • “Sin boldly and ever more boldly cling to the forgiveness of Jesus Christ ... you are not going to be able to say X, Y and Z was absolutely not sinful. ...But that was probably in other ways the right thing to do ...And so ...rely on the forgiveness of Christ for your comfort, not on whether or not it was justified.” – Caleb (53:29)

Timestamps for Major Segments

• Main Topic Introduced: 05:17–06:53
• Bruce on Pacifism: 06:53–08:20
• Aquinas & Double Effect: 08:23–09:39
• Legal/Instinct Dilemma: 09:39–13:22
• Scriptural Ambiguity: 13:22–15:45
• Historical/Theological Examples: 39:07–41:56
• Vocation & Law: 27:17–32:18
• Luther’s Just War: 39:07–41:56
• Lutheran Ethics & “Sin Boldly”: 53:19–56:49
• FBI Crisis Debrief Story: 56:49–59:45

Conclusion

The episode thoughtfully balances theological reflection, personal experience, and historical precedent to underline the persistent ambiguity and difficulty in Christian decision-making regarding self-defense and lethal force. The Lutheran approach, with its doctrines of vocation, two kingdoms, and “sin boldly,” resists simplistic answers; the hosts encourage listeners to accept the moral complexity, make responsible decisions for those in their care, and seek solace not in ethical certainty but in Christ’s forgiveness.

Final word:
“Fulfilling your responsibilities will not save you. Only Christ alone will save you…So sin boldly and ever more boldly cling to Christ.” (Caleb, 59:45)