Merry Christmas 2022

Summary

Thinking Fellows: Merry Christmas 2022 – Episode Summary

Podcast: Thinking Fellows
Episode: Merry Christmas 2022
Date: December 25, 2022
Hosts: Caleb Keith (B), Scott Keith (A), Adam Francisco (C)

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Episode Overview

This Christmas special serves both as a festive greeting and a reflective year-end wrap-up from the Thinking Fellows. The hosts offer thanks to their listeners, discuss annual Christmas controversies within Christian circles, and share lighthearted moments about family traditions and decorating. The conversation blends theological commentary with humor and personal anecdotes, embracing the relaxed, conversational style the podcast is known for.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Podcast Progress and Reading Tolkien (00:18–03:15)

• The episode opens with light banter about the ongoing Lord of the Rings reading challenge, providing a break between “The Hobbit” and “The Fellowship of the Ring.”
• The hosts joke about using audiobooks to make progress, especially during busy holiday activities.
  • Scott: “[Lord of the Rings] is like a 20-hour read through the first book.” (01:08)
  • Discussion about the differing experiences of listening vs. reading, especially while multitasking.

2. Thanking the Listeners and Year-End Reflections (03:18–05:06)

• Caleb extends heartfelt gratitude to supporters and listeners for their engagement and financial support.
  • Caleb: “We had the most support we've ever had in a given year… I'm extremely thankful for the support that listeners give to our podcast and the podcast network.” (03:39)
• Emphasis on the podcast’s impact not just in education, but in providing companionship and entertainment.

3. Revisiting Past Christmas Episodes (05:08–05:48)

• The hosts recall previous Christmas episodes—discussions about Santa, the "Creaster" phenomenon (Christmas/Easter church attendance), and related church culture topics.

4. Annual Christmas Controversies (05:49–18:40)

a. "Mary, Did You Know?" Song Debate (06:04–09:59)

• Adam and Caleb describe how online discourse criticizes the song for allegedly being patronizing to Mary, debating whether the lyrics are rhetorical or misinformed.
  • Scott: “There are some scriptures to support the fact that [Mary] maybe did not know the extent to which…” (07:05)
  • Caleb: “Peter, in the course of one breath, declares that Jesus is Lord, and then seconds later tells him that he can't be crucified…” (07:35)
• The hosts generally conclude that overanalyzing the issue misses the rhetorical intent and symbolic meaning of the song.

b. Churches Closing on Christmas Morning (10:08–18:40)

• Spirited discussion about churches choosing not to hold services on Christmas (especially when it falls on a Sunday), and the subsequent shaming or criticism on social media.

  • Adam: “It's amazing the things like people obsess about, especially in the world of Christianity…” (12:04)

• The hosts critique both sides: shaming those who only go to church on Christmas/Easter and those closing services out of concern for attendance or convenience.

• Liturgical traditions’ role:

  • Scott: “Maybe it's one of those things that the church calendar kind of protects you from having a controversy over…” (17:08)
  • Liturgical churches typically avoid these issues by adhering to the established calendar, unlike some evangelical settings.

5. Theology of Church Attendance and Piety (18:41–38:45)

• Discussion shifts to personal and communal aspects of worship attendance during holidays:
  • The difference between individual liberty and corporate worship in the tradition of the church.
  • The hosts reflect on seasons when family obligations prevented them from attending, noting that meaningful worship can also occur at home through devotions or prayer.
  • Scott: “The first Christian community you have is your family.” (24:27)
• Critique of an overemphasis on attendance as a metric of faith or as a “category of the law,” rather than focusing on receiving the gifts of the Gospel.
  • Scott: “This just gets... What are we counting here? Are they a better Christian than the person next to them that goes every single Christmas Eve and Christmas Day...?” (21:06)
• Adam laments the volume of “law, law, law, law, law” posts online, emphasizing the need to center the Gospel in church messaging.
  • Adam: “[There’s] very little concern about whether the gospel is true or not… Almost a complete absence of contending for the truthfulness of the gospel, instead of just law, law, law…” (26:29)

6. The "Office of the Holy Ministry" Debate (27:54–35:59)

• The hosts discuss theological disputes over the proper respect for the pastoral office.
  • Scott argues that disrespecting the office is not the “greatest heresy,” as some claim—it’s an error (heterodoxy), not a salvation issue.
    • Scott: “Is it a heresy? No, of course it's not a heresy. Can you believe in this wrong doctrine and still be saved? If the answer to that is yes, it's not a heresy.” (31:19)
  • The Augsburg Confession (Article 5) is cited to clarify the purpose of the preaching office.
  • The distinction is made between true doctrinal errors and the misguided amplification of certain institutional issues.

7. Personal Experiences and Holiday Fun (38:45–45:39)

• Sudden shift to lighthearted family topics and traditions:
  • Scott wins his neighborhood Christmas lights contest and jokes with Adam about decorating prowess.
    • Scott: “Yes, I did [win the contest]. In fact, yeah, I got a ticket from your wife.” (39:07)
  • Stories about nativity decorations and their quality; family traditions of hand-made manger scenes and childhood memories.
  • The hosts muse on the role of imaginative, decorative traditions in pointing children toward the significance of Christmas.
    • Adam: “It really does help children when things are exciting and important and different.” (41:12)
• Plans for next year’s decorations include potential Narnia-in-winter themes (44:52).

8. Concluding Thoughts and Looking Ahead (45:36–49:07)

• Short discussion on the format and future direction of the podcast.
  • Caleb explains the shift away from the “Why You Should” series due to fatigue and the desire for natural, topic-based conversation.
  • Listeners are encouraged to submit suggestions for future episodes.
    • Caleb: “If you have something near and dear to you that you believe needs repeating or refreshing or you would like for us to have a conversation about, feel free to send those ideas via the contact form at 1517.org.” (47:38)

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• Adam, on online controversy fatigue: “I'm tired of people yelling at me through Facebook or whatever.” (06:21)
• Scott, on the meaning of Christmas worship: “It's the ultimate message of the gospel. The Messiah has come… It's a time to remember and rejoice in that. And it's not a category of the law. It's just not.” (16:29)
• Caleb, reflecting on family worship: “That the first Christian community you have is your family. And I think Christmas is an opportunity to see that as well…” (24:27)
• Scott, satirizing comparison in piety: “I'm better than Adam. You know, just like with my Christmas lights.” (37:12)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:18 — Tolkien reading check-in and Christmas episode setup
• 03:18 — Year-end listener gratitude
• 05:08 — Recap of past Christmas episodes
• 06:04 — “Mary, Did You Know?” song controversy
• 10:08 — Churches closing on Christmas; church attendance culture
• 18:41 — Church attendance, family piety, and liberty
• 27:54 — Pastoral office and theological debate
• 38:45 — Christmas lights competition and family traditions
• 45:36 — Podcast direction and call for listener feedback

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Episode Tone

This episode is characterized by warm banter, self-deprecating humor, and thoughtful engagement with both perennial and current church controversies. The hosts manage a nuanced conversational style—simultaneously incisive and gracious, offering serious theological commentary while poking fun at themselves and holiday foibles.

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Summary

The Thinking Fellows combine hearty Christmas wishes, genuine gratitude, theological exploration, and holiday fun in this episode. They balance analysis of online controversies (worship practices, church attendance, and the “office of the ministry”) with stories of Christmas lights, family traditions, and imaginative celebrations—creating a rich, accessible episode for lay and learned listeners alike.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

Hello there and welcome to the Thinking Fellows podcast. My name is Caleb. Today I am joined by my father, Dr. Scott Keith, and by Adam Francisco to wish our listeners a very merry Christmas. This year we've done Christmas episodes, I think basically every year. We've never just run a normal episode of. For the week of Christmas on the thanking fellows, so we're gonna do the same. We're using this as a reminder to listeners who maybe listened last week or maybe to people who skipped last week. We're using this as a buffer between the Hobbit and the first book in the Lord of the Rings trilogy, the Fellowship of the Ring, which. Quick progress. Check. Guys, how far are we?

[A]

Not far enough. I mean, I'm many hours in, but it's a, it's like a, like a 20 hour read through the first book.

[B]

It's a 20 hour read and we've officially used half of our reading time. So that's why I'm doing a. I.

[A]

Don'T think I'm 20 hours read a read.

[B]

Check book, check. Adam, how far are you?

[C]

About halfway.

[B]

Oh, good.

[C]

Whatever that is. I don't, I'm not, I don't know what time or how long I've been reading, but it's a, it's a, it's a slow slog.

[A]

I'm halfway to.

[B]

Actually, I'm 35 minutes off of halfway, so you guys might be.

[C]

Are you guys both listening?

[B]

I'm listening this time, Hobbit. I read the paper book. I'm listening this time. Mostly because of how much reading there was to do at this particular time of year with other things going on. So I've been able to stack it while I do other things. I just put it in my headphones while I sit at the computer or on a bike in my garage or something. I will say, listening to the Lord of the Rings on a bike trainer is much harder for me than listening to music.

[A]

I couldn't do it. I actually tried it, Tried it on the trainer downstairs and I had to go Back to like YouTube.

[B]

I just, it, it wasn't motivating enough.

[A]

It wasn't working. I can, I can run with it in, but that's a whole different ball game. I'm outside and for whatever reason, I can't slow down.

[B]

But so far I'm enjoying it more.

[A]

Than the Hobbit, which I actually think I could. Outside mountain bike or hit the gravel bike with it. But outside I can do it inside. Inside on the trainer.

[B]

So, yeah, there's. I, I'm I'm actually looking forward to the episode on the Fellowship of the Ring a little more than I ultimately did the Hobbit. At first I was really excited about the Hobbit because it was the one I had read the most recently. But I, I actually think there's not. Just because of its length, there's more to talk about here with this. So I'm hoping you guys will feel the same when we get to that.

[A]

I think it's written better, but maybe it's just experience.

[B]

Yeah. So the big thing I wanted to do this morning, at least take some time out, is I think we're gonna use this year's Christmas episode as sort of an end of the year wrap up. If I'm. Let me just double check my calendar, make sure I'm not.

[A]

I thought you might want to talk about how I won the Christmas light decoration.

[B]

I do want to talk about that too. I do, I do want to talk about winner, winner, winner. But yeah, basically I wanted to do an end of your wrap up. And for me that starts with a big thank you to our listeners. We had the most support we've ever had in a given year from, from people who listen and read at 15, 17, attend conferences, and that's been pretty amazing. I'm extremely thankful for the support that listeners give to our podcast and the podcast network and a lot of the people who do give and then write in. A lot of the comments we see are about these podcasts and how they add value to people's lives. Not just sort of educational value, but company and entertainment. And ultimately I'm very, very glad that matters enough to people to want to support it and keep these shows going. So just a big thank you to those listeners out there who financially supported the thinking fellows in 2022. We hope that Thinking Fellows and the rest of the podcast network remains valuable to you in 2023 and that you are able and willing to continue that support as we go on. So thank you listeners.

[A]

Thank you very much.

[B]

So I was thinking about various Christmas episodes we've done. We, you know, we've done ones where we've done a couple fun ones. Like we've talked about Santa in the home or not.

[A]

Right? Oh yeah, I remember that.

[B]

That was one we've done. We've talked about the Creaster thing, Christmas, Easter, church attendance and the problems with disparaging people who go to church once or twice a year. We've talked about.

[C]

How about this latest thing? Have you seen this latest thing where everybody's.

[B]

I do Want to talk about this? Adam, I know what you're gonna say, but go for it.

[A]

Okay. I have no idea what you're gonna say.

[C]

So everybody's shaming churches for canceling church on Sunday or something like that on Christmas. And I'm glad you brought it up. Or the critique of that song. Is it Mary did you know, I think is the title that is getting.

[B]

Hilarious as well, or exhaustingly hilarious, like hilarious in the exhausting sense of where.

[A]

You guys seen these things?

[C]

Socials, bro.

[B]

I'm back.

[C]

Social.

[B]

Socials a little bit. I'm back on the. So I broke my fast for Christmas. No.

[A]

Oh, it's.

[C]

I'm like, these people need to get to the gym or something. Just stop. Yeah, I'm tired of people yelling at me through Facebook or whatever.

[A]

Controversy.

[B]

Well, there's multiple. But. Okay, why don't we start with. Why don't we start with Mary did you know Here. I do like this one. So the idea is, is that your mom doesn't like that Mary did, you know, is very insulting him to Mary, who definitely knew because of the angels promise to her.

[C]

And the song couldn't just be rhetorical.

[B]

Right. It's. It's. It actually is kind of like I feel like everybody. Everybody knows that Mary knew, but I think it's in a wave of, like.

[A]

I think there are some scriptures to support the fact that she maybe did not know the extent to which, you know, to be sure, I don't think she did. Yeah. So I think that the song is probably in the spirit of just that nobody, even those who eventually said, lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life then turned out to really not know at the end.

[B]

I mean, Peter, in the course of one breath, declares that Jesus is Lord, and then seconds later tells him that he can't be crucified, and Christ has to tell him, get behind me, Satan. Right.

[A]

So we had to. We had to endure the solo of the song every year at our church from a particular young lady who has a wonderful voice, but it was just every single year. Single year. And so, you know, I find it a little exhaust.

[B]

You're exhausted for a different reason. For.

[A]

It's just, you know, I heard it a lot, but other than that, you.

[B]

Have Mary did you know, fatigue. Yeah, but not because. Not because of misogyny. Right. No, I think that's sort of the premise. The premise, to me seems like, of course Mary knew, you know, is just sort of. It's like one of these. She's in tune with her body. And the angel told her. But I agree with you.

[A]

Well, the question in the song isn't, did she know she was pregnant?

[C]

No.

[B]

It's like, did she know what Christ was coming to do?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And I think you're right. I think there's some precedent that nobody really understood. I mean, how many times did he say, you know, son of man has come to die and like nobody gets it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like that doesn't make sense. Now we don't get really a lot of commentary on whether Mary got it or not. But he certainly sort of sets up the condition for Mary being taken care of afterwards and stuff, which would mean sort of an expectation that her eldest son was going to take care of her.

[A]

I think you get a few indications that she maybe wasn't like totally in tune.

[B]

His first miracle.

[A]

Yeah. The wedding at Canaan.

[B]

Yeah, I didn't even think about that.

[A]

And there's a. I'm bad at the other one.

[B]

Doesn't he woman her there about asking him to do it?

[A]

Well, you could even say when he's in the temple, when he's 12.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

It's a slight indication. And he corrects her.

[B]

I don't know. He woman's her there too.

[A]

Yeah, whatever. What a thing to get all tied in knots about.

[B]

When people are telling you that Jesus is your example. I highly suggest not talking to your mom the way Jesus talked to his. That's not the best example. If you want to live a long and happy life, woman, you should tell you. You should like tell your. You should tell Timmy to go look at his mom and say woman this morning, Adam. See what happens.

[C]

Yeah. We're mostly scared of Rachel. So.

[B]

So Mary, did you know that's. That was one of the controversies Adam brought up this other one which has been about churches close intentionally closing or not holding services on Christmas morning. Why it start? It started with a bit of a back and forth from articles on the. From what I understand on the Gospel Coalition website where one of the editors wrote an article about the importance of churches holding Christmas morning services, which makes a lot of sense. Christmas is literally. Dan Price has been doing this a lot this year. Christmas Mass, as in the Christ service. So.

[A]

And isn't it on Sunday this year?

[B]

And it is on Sunday this year. Yeah.

[A]

So wouldn't you just be canceling a normal Sunday service?

[B]

Correct.

[A]

So kind of weird.

[B]

So the one article is imploring people, hey, do not close on Christmas. It's important to have Christmas services. And then there was a second one that said, that was basically titled, you know, no disrespect, but these are all the reasons my church is going to be closed on Christmas. And part of it had to do with something that in like Lutheran churches is almost completely irrelevant, which had to do with attendance or the rental space not being available for particular startup church. I noticed that one was coming around which was we are a church plant that rents our space and the space is not open to us on Christmas morning, so we won't be open. Well, that's a, that's a semi legitimate. Right. So I saw that one going around, which is sort of not a choice. Right.

[A]

Also not worthy of an article. If you like the space that you rent isn't available. It's not available.

[B]

Adam.

[C]

Yeah, it just amazes me how much it's almost gotta be careful how I say this. I mean I don't spend a whole lot of time on the socials. I pretend like I do, like I did about five minutes ago, but when I do, you know, I'm sitting, maybe I'm sitting, waiting for somebody to get out of school to hop in the truck or whatever. I'll kind of cruise and cruise through it. It's just amazing the things like people obsess about and this thing over, especially in the world of Christianity. I'm pretty sure it's not just Lutheran world the way that everybody, it's almost like everybody else's business becomes our business. It's like people don't just, I mean it just drives me nuts. Not that anybody needs to know that.

[A]

Well, it is kind of Merry Christmas. We're not having church this Sunday, right? That's a little weird.

[C]

That is weird. I think it's because probably, I think the reason why people are complaining about it is because it suggests that maybe families are prioritizing, opening gifts or something like that.

[B]

So I was going to say.

[C]

To.

[B]

Maybe self shame here. I have not been a perfect Christmas morning church attender in my life. Which listeners would probably guess would mean that the person sitting to my right has also not always been a perfect Christmas morning church attender. I will say did a very, very consistent Christmas Eve. Yeah, church attender. And I've gone to Christmas. I mean it's not like I've never gone to Christmas morning service. Part of that has to do with family stuff. Now I, I feel like the opposite, this is the opposite reaction. We did this. The reason I brought this Creasters episode we did, I don't know, like that was maybe one of the first ones we Did Christmas episodes we did where we talked about, you know, the sermon on. On Christmas where the pastor spends five minutes talking about all the people who aren't there, you know, or, or you get, you know, talking about how people only show up at Christmas and you. Easter, right. That's the only services, people. And this to me feels like the opposite reaction. Right? So we get the one where we will shame people who decide twice a year it's important to come to church because, man, if I really do go to church, it should be on Christmas and on Easter. So do these two big church holidays. And we shame those people and say, you know, shame on you. You don't find regular worship important. And then now we have the complete opposite, which is like we don't want to accidentally shame anybody who feels like they can't come to this because of family obligations, travel, etc. So we're just going to close. And both are very bad to me. We're just going to close because somebody, you know, a handful of people don't come to church on Sunday for various reasons, or don't come to church on Christmas even if it's not on Sunday for various reasons. And we're going to spend a lot of time talking about this problem of people only coming here on this. It just seems, it seems like two sides of the same coin to me, where instead of sort of just being open and preaching, especially since it's Sunday.

[A]

And you'd normally be there anyway and.

[B]

Preaching the text, we have to go out of our way to figure out what the right reaction to people coming or not coming as a church instead.

[A]

Of social media is very good at just manufacturing problems that aren't real problems.

[C]

That's the thing. Yeah, that's the thing that drives me.

[A]

Getting you to think about things that you normally wouldn't wring your hands over. You know, you just kind of do what is normal for you and what you kind of think is right and within sort of the traditions and the sort of worship profile of your family. And then you overthink it and underthink it, and if you're not overthinking it, you're wrong and all this garbage. Come on, people. This is the ultimate message of the gospel. The Messiah has come, you know, gone from coming to have come. And it's a, it's a time to remember and rejoice in that. And it's not a category of the law. It's just not. It's the ultimate category of the gospel other than Easter.

[B]

Yeah, no, I, I Definitely agree. I do think again, I now I think Adam and I, this was not a. I didn't see a single like Lutheran Church talking about this. This was sort of more broadly American evangelical.

[A]

Well, maybe it's one of those things that the church calendar kind of protects you from having a controversy over. You know, this is.

[B]

Right.

[A]

This is just part of the church calendar. If you're in a liturgical church, you're.

[B]

Not, you don't pick and choose services. Yeah.

[A]

You're not going to really sort of make a decision. Now there are Lutheran churches who don't participate as actively in the liturgical calendar. And so I'm sure some of those are picking and choosing, although I would guess they're not picking to close on a Sunday. But other than that, the liturgical calendar will protect you from this just a little bit because it's just one of the services in the church year that you plan for all year.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No matter, no matter when it falls.

[B]

No, that's. Yeah, it could be on a Thursday. It doesn't really.

[A]

Now, we could debate whether or not Thanksgiving should be.

[B]

Well, I was gonna say.

[A]

But Christmas Eve and Christmas Day certainly are.

[B]

That, that is a funny one to me because you can, you can sort of see. Now, I'm not saying there's a real life example of this, but you can sort of see where it's possible that a church had a Thanksgiving Day service and then not a Christmas morning service, and you really have a strange set of circumstances or priorities. Yeah, that's kind of weird here at that. I mean, one is, I won't say churches can't have Thanksgiving services. I'm certainly not a big fan, mostly because it's a state holiday of a state that's not a Christian state.

[A]

How dare you say that?

[B]

And so, you know, co opting it because it's a message of thankfulness and Christians are thankful to God is, I mean, I guess something you can do. But it's certainly not historic or it comes out of scripture or church holiday of some sort.

[A]

But I thought Thanksgiving was mentioned in 4th John.

[B]

In 4th John. Wow.

[C]

Sitting there thinking for a second, wait, what's he talking about?

[B]

Maybe on the converse. I mean, as somebody who's maybe chapel skipped on a, on a Christmas. Not to. Not to put it out there too much, too late. Is it okay? I mean, so obviously I can see you have like sort of a strong reaction to churches closing on Christmas. What if people aren't showing up and should people be showing up to Christmas morning service? And if you don't why is that? Okay.

[A]

I always get a little. This whole should conversation when it comes to receiving the gifts gets a little weird to me. So I would say that for sure. You know, if you're part of a liturgical community. Right. It's not really. You're gonna just. You're just gonna just follow the liturgical calendar. And so Christmas Eve and Christmas Day will be services, no matter when they fall, that are a part of that calendar that you as pastor and as a congregation hold. I think that that's good. That takes a lot of sort of the individual thought out of it and makes the church, you know, as it participates in worship throughout the year, one in a particular way because, you know, this has been the history of the church. This is when the church has worship and what the church has practiced, that's different than the Christian liberty of a person or a family to sort of make use of the gifts. When they make use of the gifts now, does that mean that they should neglect preaching and his word? As Luther would say? Absolutely not. But I'm not necessarily sure that if, you know, depending on when it falls, if you went to church.

[B]

Well, this week, you potentially. Three days this week.

[A]

I was gonna say, if you went to church two out of three opportunities in a week, would that count as neglecting? I don't know. I tend to. I tend to think not. Should you go three? Could you go three? Sure. But this gets weird. I mean, this just gets. How. What are we counting here? We counting somebody's salvation? We're counting. Are they a better Christian than the person next to them that goes every single Christmas Eve and Christmas Day, no matter what's going on, no matter whether they're travel, no matter what their family tradition is, whatever. That just all gets strange to me. I don't understand the point of it, other than having an attempt to measure yourself as better than somebody else.

[B]

Yeah. There's a intrinsic danger, I think, in matters essentially of now. I don't want to make it sound like church as a preference, because that's kind of the other thing. Right. Is you just pick and choose. And again, on an individual level.

[A]

But we already said don't neglect preaching in his word.

[B]

Right. But where circumstance. Yeah. Family history and tradition and sort of being equipped to do things in other ways is fine as well. I basically said, hey, there's years we haven't done this. We haven't always done this. But in lieu of that, very often there's been family reading and devotional with use of the church's hymnal. In there. If there are particular reasons or things that we don't go to church, I'll say. Growing up, some of the reason we missed some Christmas morning services was because my grandma lived close, but not in the same neighborhood as us, certainly great.

[A]

Grandma who had a harder time getting out when it was snowy and cold.

[B]

And my great grandma who wasn't mobile, and we went to their house on Christmas morning. So that included packing up cars, traveling. If you weren't going to bring all the presents that were at our house, that meant sort of doing that first, then packing up a car, then getting the three of us over to her house and stuff like that. Right. So there was a moment spent with getting to family, and I was talking to a friend about sort of the survival of the church, especially in rural areas. As churches sort of more and more churches close. We hear about this every year. Churches in some areas are becoming more rural, harder to travel to many. Maybe weekly attendance becomes less possible for people, depending on where they are and what church they're going to. And it seems like what will make it so that people are okay is not that they can go to church every Sunday, but that there's also a strong ability to do theology in the home, to catechize in the home, to pray and worship and. And sing in the home, and to prioritize family as a corporate Christian group as well. Right. That the first Christian community you have is your family.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I think Christmas is an opportunity to see that as well, because at least even on the secular level, it's a holiday that our country has said is set apart for families. And if Christians can use. Use that to then make the family space also a religious space, I think that is beneficial now that. Now part of that may be then very much going to church on that day, but part of that may be also reading or doing devotions and prayers at home.

[A]

What do you think, Adam? I know you guys go to both every year.

[C]

Of course we do.

[A]

You're the faithful. I could be.

[C]

I could be, like, recently amputated and I'd be going to church.

[B]

Your wife would be wheelchairing you in.

[C]

Oh, I was gonna say that's how pious I am. But rather my wife making me recently.

[A]

Amputated the thing that.

[C]

I guess the thing that just irks me. And here I am just lobbing criticism. But behind all this emphasis, like, I get tired of the shouting on the socials, like, get to church, get to church, get to church.

[A]

Every.

[C]

Every Friday or Saturday, there's certain people, and I see Two things. One is that alongside this, sometimes in some corners of. Especially our theological world, an overemphasis on the office of the Holy ministry, almost a panic behind it that people aren't coming to church, people are disrespecting the office, and so they're just going to, like, beat everybody over the head with the law. Then the other thing I see is all this emphasis on going to church and respecting the office of the holy ministry and all these other things, but very little concern about whether the gospel is true or not or, you know.

[A]

Or even preached or not.

[C]

Yeah. In the public arena, like the social media realm, very. Almost a complete absence of contending for the truthfulness of the gospel, instead of just law, law, law, law, law, law. And I. I don't know, just. Just irritates me, like when somebody's yelling on. On Facebook or I don't have Twitter yet. I should get Twitter, I think. And what are the other. Caleb, you should set me up with all the socials.

[B]

I'm not even set up with all.

[C]

The socials, Adam, Just the constant.

[B]

It just seems like many would say it's my weakness as a promoter of podcasts is that I'm not very in tune with social media.

[C]

Well, maybe we should start a TikTok channel together.

[A]

Oh, don't do that.

[C]

Are there such a things as TikTok channels?

[B]

Yeah, you. You know what? Chad has got a pretty good one, so you might as well just. You should go do some videos with Chad.

[C]

I'm kidding. I'm not doing that.

[B]

But, yeah, that is an interesting thing. I don't. You know, on the. On the times when I haven't gone to church, I've never viewed it as sort of my rebellion against the Office of Holy Ministry, saying, I don't need a pastor. I can do this myself this Sunday. It's usually not. I mean, I would say it's never really been a conscious decision to do that. Yeah.

[C]

You know, this is probably just meet my autobiography and maybe my psychology, but I just remember a couple years back, somebody in. Again, in our circles, or certainly my circles, talking about how the disrespect for the Office of the Holy Ministry is the greatest heresy of our day and age. I just remember. What, What.

[A]

Okay, can we. Can we. Can we just hold on a second here?

[B]

It's a lot of German on the left side of that book.

[A]

There's a lot of German on the left side. There's a lot of Latin on the right side. So we're all right.

[B]

We're gonna Be okay.

[A]

This whole idea. And I don't want to do. I don't want to ruin our Christmas show by talking about this sort of internecine, you know, conflict here, but this whole idea that all of a sudden that, you know, on the office of the ministry has started to be translated on the office of the holy ministry is part of the whole problem. And it's part of the. And I've never understood what it is. It's like all of a sudden, pastors, some pastors, not all pastors, seem to think that people, I.e. parishioners or other Christians who were not pastors, didn't respect the, you know, the ministry anymore or the call to be a pastor anymore. And so the language got changed to sort of amplify the position of that call, and holy was added to it when it's not even.

[B]

It's the preaching office in the. In the ac, right? In the Oxford Confession, or it's the.

[A]

The office of the ministry.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so. And I understand that, like, I understand.

[B]

How that it's a divine call and that it's a holy call, and that.

[A]

I also understand how, you know, during the church growth movement, which was a while ago now, that there began to be some fear over the fact that sort of the office of the ministry in itself was degraded was kind of taken more casually. But still, the reaction to that, to say that the looking down upon the office of the ministry is the greatest heresy of our time. I'm not even sure it's a heresy. It's a heterodoxy, for sure. When people do not believe that God has called particular preachers and pastors to particular congregations in order to be the ones that are responsible for the preaching of His Word and the administrations of his sacraments. If you don't believe that that's a thing, you are, I think, wrong. And you're participating in promoting a heterodox doctrine. But is it a heresy? No, of course it's not a heresy. Can you. This is a question you ask yourself if something's a heresy. Can you believe in this wrong doctrine and still be saved? If the answer to that is yes, it's not a heresy. In order for it to be heresy, you have to deny one of the primary aspects of the Christian faith.

[B]

Ooh, can I say that's what's. So we can make this get around to the Christmas a little bit with what you just said? Actually, no, it's okay, guys, but because this is. This is interesting, and it's on people's mind.

[C]

I'm at fault here. I opened the can of worms.

[B]

That big question which has so few no's in it. Do you need. Does. Does believing X, you know, cause your you to lose your salvation, that question.

[A]

Or is it just so wrong that you're not believing in actual Christianity?

[B]

Correct. Yeah. So the fact that, that the answer to that question is so often no, and that it's potentially a narrow door to that makes Christianity very uncomfortable at times, including things like, we can be very unhappy that churches are closing that are choosing not to be open on Christmas. And in all likelihood the answer to will the people who are members of that church be saved? Is still yes. And that can make Christianity and Christians in a very like, uncomfortable pickle. Because of course we want them to be open, right? But we can't with a straight face say, well, they're not saved if they close.

[A]

Right? No, exactly. I mean, this is the. We have to be. This is just part of the age where our rhetoric has gotten to the point where everything is amped up to the level where it's not enough to say when somebody denies the pastoral office as salutary and ordained by God, it's not enough for us to just look at them and go, I think that's wrong. I don't think that's how Scripture speaks about the pastoral office.

[B]

What you're doing is potentially dangerous, right?

[A]

And what you're doing is cutting people off from consistent preaching of the Word and administration of the sacraments by doing that. And that potentially will mean that people do not receive the gifts and that through which the Holy Spirit works and could be very dangerous to them. We have to say, that's a heresy. You're going to hell. And it's just, I mean, that's. Even when you read Article 5, it says exactly what the office was ordained for, that we may obtain this faith. What faith? The faith that the Holy Spirit through means both embodies in us and keeps in us until hopefully the day that we die. The office of teaching the gospel and administering the sacraments was instituted for through the Word and the sacraments as through instruments the Holy Spirit is given who worketh faith where and when it pleases God in them that hear the gospel. In other words, you have to have somebody preaching in order to hear it. Romans 10 style here that hear the gospel, to wit, that God not for our own merits, but for Christ's sake, justifies those who believe that they are received favor for Christ's sake. Now what's condemned, they condemn the Anabaptists and others who think that the Holy Ghost comes to men without external preaching of the Word through their own preparations and works. So it's okay to condemn it as wrong, but to turn around and then say. To have to amplify that and say.

[B]

Condemn specifically, though not an accidental downplaying.

[A]

Of the condemns, believing that the Word doesn't come through preaching.

[B]

Yeah, it condemns unmediated access to the Holy Spirit by individuals through prayer, meditation, seeking him in weird individual signs, etc. That is going to find Christ where he is not promised to be. Yeah, that's what is condemned. Now the other thing is people who are not going to church. The nuns in this country are nuns. Not because they've set up, because they've gone into their house and say, I don't need the church to access Jesus Christ, I can access Jesus Christ myself. They just don't believe in any of the enchilada anymore. They're not praying that the Holy Spirit reveal Christ to them without a pastor. They're just not praying right. Like it's, it's a different problem. It's actually not the replacement of pastors with the self. It's just unbelief that, you know, like if we had a bunch of Lutherans just mass exiting churches because they're setting up pietistic camps of their own families saying we just pray until the Holy Spirit makes one of us speak, we'd be in a totally different situation when it comes to like, well, pastors jobs are really in danger.

[A]

Well, that gets to what Adam said that you know, seen on social media every Sunday. Go to church.

[B]

Like, okay, this makes me really not want to go to church.

[A]

This is again, you're now making going to church a category of the law as oh my, going to church does something for God. It doesn't. I mean, at the end of the day, if you take the Oxberg confession, Article 5, the reason that you go and the reason we need pastors is so that the Word is preached to me in my ears and the sacraments are given to me over my head in the water and in my mouth in the blood and the wine and, and that through that the Holy Spirit not only engenders, but strengthens my faith into the end or when Christ comes again. And that is the purpose. Now if we make the purpose something else, it all of a sudden becomes a category of the law by which I'm measuring myself against somebody else. And I'm sure that measuring has more to do with me saying I'm Better than my neighbor than it does me saying, I'm worse. Or even on the occasion when I look at Adam and go, whoa, they go every Christmas Eve and Christmas Day. I really stink. The purpose then for me is to amend that so that I can look at Adam and say, well, I'm at least as good as Adam. Or look at one of their kids was sick and they didn't go. And we did go, and I'm better than Adam.

[B]

I beat him.

[A]

You know, just like with my Christmas lights.

[B]

I actually did that to a friend who's a pastor. He got. You know, his. His kid got sick with COVID and he was exposed, so he had a sub come and preach for him one week, and then there was another week where I think he was traveling then and missed out. And then he got back and he was sick, and he missed three weeks. And on a. And understand listener that we're rural and there was a weird church situation up here. That's getting better. But in Big Bear. But I had, for the first time in a while, gone three weeks in a row. And I texted him. I was like, well, look at how the turntables have turned. Look who's going to church, and look who's not, right? You know, it's kind of a funny joke, but it's not funny when you mean it anymore. Or maybe when you're not meaning it towards them or you actually say those things to yourself inside. There's a limit, you know, Personal piety and practice is good. There's a. There's a limit to where it can actually sort of become dangerous, though, where these autiaphrons. I mean, worship isn't one, but other pieces of it. Personal piety concerning it and how you handle it are Become the measure of if you are enough or if you're worthy before God.

[A]

Well, that limit's probably closer than you think.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right, Adam?

[C]

Yes. Yes, sir. Sorry, I was yawning to Zoom. I don't know.

[A]

Can we talk about Christmas lights?

[B]

Yeah, we can talk about Christmas lights.

[A]

So, Adam, did you put up Christmas lights?

[C]

Of course I did.

[B]

The day.

[C]

Was it Thanksgiving day or the day after? I can't remember.

[A]

Did you win your neighborhood contest?

[C]

I did not. Did you?

[A]

Yes, I did. In fact, yeah, I got a ticket from your wife.

[C]

Tell me the.

[B]

When he started this show, this show was two. Two edgy Gen X professors, one curmudgeon, like. Like, one, like, really seasoned curmudgeon. He had, like, seasoned reasons to be curmudgeon and a really naive kid. And now it's like two, two boomers and a millennial. You guys are talking about your Christmas, like, competition. Only retired people have time to worry about that. Guys. And you're both still working.

[A]

I put up lights at your house too, you know.

[B]

He did, he did. My wife was very patient with me. We got Christmas stuff up on the inside of our house very quickly the day after Thanksgiving. But then I'm always very slow on the uptake with the outside lights. And I'm a bit of a penny pincher. So every time somebody shakes a box of lights, I'm like, are those LEDs? Is my electrical bill going up? So. And I always make sure, See, like, I walked here this morning down, down in my dad's house on a lot of ice. But I noticed that not only does he have all these beautiful lights up on his house, but they were on, which means they were on all night.

[A]

No, they weren't on all night. I turn them on when I wake up at 5 o' clock in the morning so that the people going to work can enjoy them in the morning.

[B]

Wow. That's, Wow.

[C]

I love it.

[B]

Merry Christmas to your neighborhood. Holy cow.

[C]

Our Christmas tree, because we have these two little boys who are into everything, only has decor or ornaments way up high. And when the boys go to their visitation, we'll put the other ones below. But, but the little guy that we have loves baby shark. He's probably got a hundred little finger puppet baby shark things. So we'll come home sometimes it'll be little or walk into the living tree. Little baby sharks all throughout the tree. It's hilarious.

[A]

He likes to decorate.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, he does. He loves his baby sharks.

[A]

Baby sharks. That's funny.

[B]

Yeah, I, I, I acknowledge that there's, you know, it's not just sort of like secular holidayism to really decorate. It really does sort of make. We've talked about theology of imagination as we've been reading fiction books. It really does help children when things are exciting and important and different.

[C]

In your decorations in your home, do you have anything particularly Christian, like a manger scene, or is it just lights?

[B]

We have a true test.

[A]

Well, we have a little part of our Christmas lights is a little like four foot nativity out front.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

In one of the gardens we have a Nativity and we have one inside.

[B]

Various ornaments on the tree are like, you know, crosses and stuff.

[A]

We did find though, that you couldn't really see the Nativity at light, even though they were outlined in lights. So we had to go get little solar Flood lights to shine on them.

[C]

At night thing going on. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I.

[A]

So I would have to do some better engineering of that.

[B]

I will say the quality of nativities that you can buy, like outdoor nativity activities is not high.

[A]

No, these are. When it got windy here, half of them blew.

[B]

It's difficult. My wife was trying for some time to find one and she never found one where she was happy, where she thought it was going to last.

[A]

Easier to find a blow up yeti from the Rudolph. A 20 foot blow up Yeti from the Rudolph cartoon. There's.

[C]

Yeah. My dad, when I was a kid, I think we were. I was probably not even a teenager, made this life size manger scene out of plywood. You know, he cut out the figures and plywood and painted it and everything. And we had that for. For years and years because of course it stuck around because it was so heavy. And then I really regret taking that. He offered it to one of or to us. And I think my brother Ben, who's a pastor, took it.

[A]

But Ron Hodel did this same thing for the sailboat. Oh, did he? For. For the boat parade. Yeah, he did it in. I had to be. When Caleb was a baby. I remember him doing it. So like 95, 96.

[C]

Yeah, this would have been about.

[A]

And then. And then kind of had it on the boat every year for the Dana Point Harbor Boat Parade.

[B]

That's cool.

[A]

I wonder if it's still in Gail's garage.

[B]

Interesting. Yeah, I'll.

[A]

Merry Christmas.

[C]

That's all this has been.

[B]

No, it's up in a wild ride. But it's fun. I like having just an episode to, you know, to talk. I was gonna say something else, but funny.

[C]

This morning I got up at about 4ish, not by choice. And I was like, oh, I should probably read up on the history of Christmas. You know, when December 25th became the day and all these things. I was ready to go. And then I.

[A]

Maybe if we're not done with the Fellowship of the Ring next week, we can do that and you can like, you can give us the full.

[C]

Get all geeky.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, man.

[A]

History.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Buy us another week.

[B]

That you can. Buy us another week. Yeah. Next. Next week.

[A]

I'm more worried about the middle one, by the way, so.

[B]

Two Towers.

[A]

Yeah. I think that Two Towers is going to be the hard one to finish Return of the King. I think it's going to be fine. Two Towers. That's the one where, you know, Return.

[B]

Of the King has two awesome narratives in it.

[A]

And yeah. Two awesome battles in it.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So can you just watch the movie?

[B]

This year was the 20th anniversary of Two Towers on like December five days ago or whatever was. Of the movie.

[A]

Of the movie.

[B]

Yeah. 20 years. Yeah.

[C]

Oh, my goodness.

[B]

They were December movies. They were Christmas. They were out at Christmas every year.

[A]

Hey, I think our my Christmas light theme next year is going to be Narnia in winter.

[B]

Oh, that's cool. Hopefully you're like this now.

[A]

What's the.

[C]

What's the movie? The guy who goes overboard decorating his house.

[B]

Clark Griswold.

[A]

Yeah. That's what you're doing Christmas vacation.

[C]

He is a boomer, isn't he?

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, me, no, no, no. Clark Griswold.

[C]

Yes. No.

[B]

You're becoming him, though.

[A]

Couldn't be. Couldn't be him. I can't be the guy that just helped my wife build a Narnia closet for my grandchildren.

[B]

It's pretty amazing. It's pretty amazing. Well, that was a fun episode. A lot of chit chat, a lot of things to discuss. I'm glad we were able to both have a little controversy and have a little fun.

[A]

Yeah. Hopefully not too much controversy.

[B]

So we will be back next week with a little more reading of Tolkien and the Lord of the Rings. And if you have any episode ideas into 2023 wanted people to. I think people realized I was gonna do a bit of a recap, but we kind of slowly shut down the why you should series. It was very utilitarian and it worked well. Soft clothes to do it. But as I was going on, I realized that the topics were getting sort of more. At first, it was a great way to reintroduce some topics we had done. Like we got back to some justification, long gospel, some preaching topics and such so that we could do it from a different angle. But eventually, I think what it became was difficult for us to imagine. Instead of just talking about stuff, figuring out an angle to convince people to be committed to it. And after nine months of it, it became less of a fun conversation for us and more of a mode of doing it. And one of the things with thinking fellows is if it's not conversational, it's not working. It's not working for us with thinking fellows. And so we slowly moved off of that into a sort of a bread and butter mode for us, which was reading again, if I can. If we have enough space and enough time, if we read a book and discuss becomes something we can do without. Without a series. As we come into 2023, I'm really interested in what listeners would like us to revisit or maybe do for the first time. Maybe we haven't done something because one of the, one of the challenges thinking fellows is relatively old in the podcasting game. It's not relatively old. And sort of like if you, if.

[A]

You talk about so old that when you started you were with two edgy Xers and now those Xers are boomers, somehow that happened.

[B]

And one of the, I think one of the things that's I'm not gonna say difficult for us, but is understanding listener fatigue. How many times we've done a topic, are they sick of hearing a topic? Do they really want to hear it again or from a new perspective? Or is there a particular question on a doctrine or historical or point of church history or apologetic question that people want answered that maybe we've done, but we should revisit? And that's just since podcasts last in perpetuity and we have 7ish years of episodes lined up, it's hard for me to gauge what of those are needing repeating or refreshing. So if you have something near and dear to you that you believe needs repeating or refreshing or you would like for us to have a conversation about, feel free to send those ideas via the contact [e-mail]. Especially as we get into the new year, I definitely have some episodes lined up. We're doing these Tolkien episodes. We actually have some books to potentially review or have authors on to talk about as well that have been sent to us from various publishers. So if you have something that you'd like us to revisit or reimagine in our conversations, please, please feel free to share. Thank you for supporting. We will catch you next time. Bye.

[A]

Merry Christmas. Bye.