Thinking Fellows Podcast – Postmodernism: Why You Should Know the Intellectual Origins

Date: October 12, 2022
Hosts: Scott Keith, Caleb Keith, Adam Francisco, Bruce Hillman
Podcast Network: 1517 Podcasts
Duration: ~1 hour

Episode Overview

This episode of Thinking Fellows tackles the subject of postmodernism, specifically exploring its intellectual origins and why understanding those roots is valuable—especially for those concerned with theology, philosophy, and Christian engagement with culture. The team aims to move beyond cliché complaints, instead clarifying the often vague and misunderstood concept, tracing its genealogy, and examining its real-world influence on society and the church.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining Postmodernism (03:08–04:48)

• Slippery by Nature: Postmodernism resists working definitions; it's self-consciously evasive, “actively attempts to defy working definitions.” – Bruce (03:08)
• Leotard’s Classic Definition:
  “Incredulity to meta-narratives … Postmodernism is a rejection of stories or theories of life that can account for all things. Christianity, Marxism, scientific method ... these things can account for all of human experience. And postmodernism says no one story can account for human experience.” – Bruce (03:22)
• Postmodern Mood:
  Beyond theory, it’s a mood—a pervasive skepticism that trickles into art, architecture, anthropology, psychoanalysis, etc. This mood questions power structures, institutions, and the stories they tell.

2. Postmodernism’s Critique of Institutions and Power (05:25–07:33)

• Postmodern thinkers, influenced by historical oppression (e.g., Jews in the Holocaust, Algerians, Vietnam), are suspicious of institutions as inherently privileging certain groups.
• Foucault (often associated) worries about the “coercive” nature of institutions, often invisible even to those participating.

3. Relativism and the Anti-Marxist Strain (08:17–11:33)

• Relativism: “If that relativism comes about, it comes about by a distrust of institutional truth ... the meta narrative being imposed on you in any way.” – Caleb (09:46)
• Anti-Marxism: Original postmodernists were not Marxists, though they wrote from the left. They feared Marxism’s “totalizing story.”

4. Deconstruction vs. Destruction (11:37–14:29)

• Deconstruction: The central postmodern project is endless questioning and taking apart of institutions/metanarratives—not necessarily seeking blank slates or complete annihilation.
• Philosophy as Playfulness: “At the end of the day, all we have is playfulness ... But we can’t construct these institutions and think they’ll offer us hope ... All we can do is keep deconstructing.” – Bruce (13:40)

5. Applied Postmodernism and the Cultural Shift (16:16–17:59)

• Terminology:
  • Post-modernism (with hyphen): The academic period (1960–1990) when philosophers wrote about these ideas.
  • Postmodernism (no hyphen): Applied postmodernism, when these ideas escape academia and permeate culture/politics.
• “Flattening” Everything Out: The 1990s and beyond see postmodernism as a tool for applied ideology, sometimes associated with “cultural Marxists.”
  “It’s not just deconstructive, it’s destructive to flatten everything out.” – Adam (15:00)

6. Critique and Limitations of Postmodernism (17:59–21:25)

• Postmodernism is inherently easier to criticize and take down than it is to build or offer answers. It shapes conversations so that assertive statements of right/wrong or truth/goodness/beauty become difficult.
• “It’s easier to be a critic than to be the person with the answer ... The answer takes work.” – Caleb (18:08)

7. Modernism’s Faults & Postmodernism as Reaction (21:25–24:33)

• Modernism offered excessive certainty and faith in progress, leading to tragic outcomes (e.g., “bodies, atom bombs, and corpses”).
• Postmodernism emerges as a recoil from this certainty and its failures.
• “Modernity is paying for its own sins ... It’s reaping what it sown.” – Bruce (21:25)

8. Social Engineering – Old and New (24:05–25:40)

• Critique of modern and postmodern attempts at top-down “social engineering” (e.g., eugenics, and contemporary gender/identity legislation), foreseeing similar dangers in moral certainty enforced from above.

9. Intellectual Origins: Structuralism, Language, and the Self (26:21–54:47)

A. From Structuralism to Poststructuralism

• Structuralism: A method developed to find objectivity in the humanities, inspired by structural linguistics and psychoanalysis (Freud/Marx). It sought hidden systems or “structures” beneath conscious experience.
  • Key Figure: Ferdinand de Saussure (linguist) introduced distinction between “sign” (word) and “signified” (concept).
  • “A word doesn't mean because it is a label for a thing. A word means because it's part of a structure or a system ... it's used differently.” – Bruce (36:09)
• Poststructuralism: Reflexive critique, using structuralist methods to expose that the idea of structures itself is a structure and thus not immune from skepticism.

B. Wittgenstein and the Limits of Language

• Wittgenstein: Points out the breakdown and essential ambiguity of language (e.g., can we define “game”?).
• “Philosophical problems either get solved because we get better definitions and then it just all goes away. Or we find out there are some things, like the word game, that can never be solved … but they still function.” – Bruce (43:39)

C. Derrida and Deconstruction

• Derrida: Synthesizes structuralist insights and Wittgenstein’s philosophy—language is always shifting (“diachronic” and “synchronic” meanings), can never perfectly communicate or close off meaning.
• “The very essence of language ... we have to pick one meaning. But there is always more.” – Bruce (48:09)
• No closure, no universal objectivity—“Language itself is the hindrance.”

10. Why Understanding the Origins Matters (56:22–58:48)

• Navigating Modern Debates: If you understand how postmodernism shapes or destabilizes conversation, you can engage more thoughtfully, recognizing when structures are being deconstructed (or when you yourself are doing the deconstruction).
• Theological Insight:
  Bruce connects this tension (endless generativity vs. boundedness) to the Christian doctrine of the Incarnation: “The Logos is the reason of God … endlessly eternal and generative and bounded and set at the same time. ... As much as language may indeed show us our limitations on conceptual abilities to grab truth, the Incarnation at the same time pushes back.” (56:22–58:48)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On defining postmodernism:
  “Postmodernism does not allow itself as part of its theory to be explicitly defined.” – Bruce (03:18)
• On the postmodern mood:
  “It’s sort of a skepticism, a form of skepticism that is an operative mood in how you approach problems and things in society.” – Bruce (03:57)
• On institutional mistrust:
  “They’re anti-Marxists. They’re pro-socialists, but they’re anti-Marxists. They don’t like Marx because Marx gives a totalizing story.” – Bruce (05:25)
• On deconstruction:
  “Derrida said very many times that deconstruction is not destruction ... He didn’t say that when you pull down an institution, everything in that institution is bad. It’s the reach of the institution that’s the problem.” – Bruce (13:40)
• On the modern-to-postmodern transition:
  “In a way, it’s not surprising it’s here ... The culture just evolved in a cultural awareness of zeitgeist ... in a, in a cultural awareness of zeitgeist, whatever you want to call it to be like, well, we’re not going to keep doing things this way.” – Bruce (22:47)
• On language games and problems:
  “Wittgenstein would say, that’s a dumb question, because ... We all know what a game is, and we actually all know what existence is.” – Bruce (43:39)
• On the significance for Christians:
  “Maybe, just maybe, the Christian theologian has to sort of accept an uneasy summary of the two (endlessness and boundedness), and knowing that the mystery of these things probably ultimately resides in the ... life himself, who is both endlessly eternal and generative, and bounded and set at the same time.” – Bruce (56:22)

Noteworthy Timestamps

• 03:08–04:48 – Working definitions of postmodernism (Leotard, the “mood”).
• 05:25–07:33 – Institutions & power, Foucault, anti-Marxism.
• 11:37–14:29 – Deconstruction vs. destruction; Derrida’s “end of philosophy.”
• 17:59–21:25 – Applied postmodernism, critiques, spread into culture.
• 21:25–24:33 – Modernity’s certainty and its consequences; cultural backlash.
• 26:21–54:47 – Deep dive: Structuralism to poststructuralism and language (Saussure, Wittgenstein, Derrida).
• 56:22–58:48 – Theological reflection: The Incarnation as both generative and bounded truth.

Episode Tone & Language

The hosts sustain a collegial, conversational tone—humorous at times, thick with references, engaging high-level philosophy in an accessible way. Bruce, in particular, acts as guide for the dense philosophical portions, while the other hosts interject with relatable examples and push for implications in theology and everyday life.

Summary Takeaways

• Postmodernism isn’t (and doesn’t want to be) nailed down; it’s a skeptical mood about universals and institutional narratives.
• Its origins lie in critical responses to modernism’s overconfidence and the academic projects of structuralism and language theory.
• The mood and methods of postmodernism have seeped into popular culture, changing how certainty and truth are approached and making it harder to build or assert foundational values.
• Understanding these origins is crucial, especially for theologically-minded listeners, to navigate ongoing cultural debates and temptations to both ruthless critique and hasty reassertion of certainty.

For Further Exploration

• For those intrigued by these themes, the hosts recommend reading original postmodernist writers (Leotard, Foucault, Derrida), exploring language philosophy, or reflecting on how the Incarnation as bounded-unbounded truth might bridge the philosophical gaps exposed in the episode.

End of summary.