A (3:56)

I hope it's not me, because I don't know where you're asking.

B (3:58)

No, I gave you. I said come up with three. That way if there's overlap, you'll have one still. But Adam, Adam, Adam, Adam. You are like a ping pong ball with this topic. I feel like sometimes, sometimes we get on the call and you're like, man, Lutheranism's really got me down. And then other times you're like, this is the only true church on earth. So I'm curious where you are this Monday morning, but what is your most compelling reason you could give somebody to be Lutheran or stay in the fight?

C (4:33)

It depends on what day of the week it is.

B (4:36)

Just kidding. My God, it's Monday.

A (4:39)

First of all, I was defending you against the ping pong allegation.

C (4:43)

My theology is thoroughly Lutheran. Okay. Contrary to my detractors, because I associate with people like you.

A (4:51)

Oh, wow.

D (4:52)

And Thomas Aquinas.

C (4:54)

It's just sometimes Lutherans get me down. Okay, so that's. That's my issue. It's.

B (5:02)

That's true.

C (5:03)

Not people like you, but it's like, you know, it's the. I think it's probably the case in every denomination that has a pretty tight confession where the theology might be outstanding and outstanding because it's thoroughly biblical, but the culture is sometimes. So that's the ping pong thing you're witnessing, Caleb, because I don't.

B (5:27)

Well, I didn't mean.

C (5:27)

You move about in a lot of Lutheran cycles.

B (5:29)

You know, your emotions on this very

C (5:33)

emotional man can sway.

A (5:35)

I was gonna say, I talked to Adam a lot. His emotions ping pong constantly

B (5:40)

by the hour.

C (5:42)

So depends whether I've talked to your dad or not in the morning. So first and foremost, I think thinking about this broader period in American Christian history or Western Christian History, first and foremost, I'd like to say, and this is going to be a little ping pong here, it's really important that you stay within the household of faith generally. Now, I'm using kind of a C.S. lewis analogy here. What you'll find though, in that household of faith as you explore the rooms that if there's a theology out there that does. In fact, here's my CUIA subscription to our theology, but also, as you test it, you'll find out does correspond to what God has revealed about himself. His disposition towards men and women and so on and so forth is articulated very closely and succinctly in the Lutheran tradition. So the short, long and short of it is because that's Lutheran theology is the theology of the Bible. How about that? Can any of you guys top that? It's the.

A (7:02)

But that was pretty good.

B (7:02)

That was my number one reason.

A (7:05)

That was pretty good way to go.

C (7:06)

And well, potlucks. Green jello with carrot flakes in it. You know, that's another good reason. That's a stereotype.

B (7:18)

All right, well, okay. Well, this is good because you might have time to come back around. So, dad, I'm just going in the order you guys are on my screen. So what's a good for me, this is always be your stay.

A (7:31)

This is a pretty easy question. And it always takes me back to a story that Rod used to tell about hanging out with the White Horse Inn guys when they used to probably almost said film, but they were in the glorious days of audio only, back when the world was kind and good, back when they used to record the White Horse Inn radio show, Rod would say that he, Mike and Kim would meet somewhere and they'd hop in a car because they all lived up in Orange county. And I think even back then they recorded in Escondido. And somebody would drive them down to the studio and they gave them a chance to work up conversation before they recorded the show and whatnot. And he would say that one day they were chatting it up about whatever topic and Rod was giving his typical Christocentric answer to that. Christ for you. Christ for you. Christ for you. And Mike looked at him and said, you know what? For all of our sort of talk about how we're all Christocentric in our theology, Lutherans really are Christocentric in a way that no one else is. And that stuck with me. And the more I've looked into and studied Lutheran theology, the more I see that to be the case. If you read to Adam's Point, it all flows from biblical theology, which is the same. I mean, Christ says this himself, right? He reveals to the two disciples on the road after they've eaten that all these things, all the prophecies given in the Old Testament, were written concerning him. John says this at the end of John, chapter 20. All these things are written so that you may believe that Jesus is Christ, the son of the living God. So this is a very biblical theology, to Adam's point. But within Lutheranism, the old Sunday School answer of Jesus really is usually the right answer, just in a way that other theologies can put what we would call other material principles ahead of Christology. Lutherans come back to Christology time and time again. They lead to Christology as quickly as they can. They come back to it time and time again. You can see this in our first confession, the Augsburg Confession, where it's sort of a race to justification, but that justification is tied to the article which is before it, which is Christian.

B (9:57)

Very good, Bruce, I'm expecting you to have the best one, since you were the only person on this one who wasn't.

C (10:04)

Well, you.

B (10:05)

You're the only one who had to convert.

D (10:07)

Yeah, I came into Lutheranism, not from Lutheranism. And my answer is sort of related to that. Of course, I agree completely with what my illustrious colleagues have said thus far about Lutheranism.

B (10:20)

But

D (10:22)

for me, I guess, broadly speaking, the answer I would say is I've really appreciated in Lutheranism the idea of nuance. And I guess more particularly what I mean by that is maybe a biblical idea of tension. So Lutheranism is really able to hold two things that may seem on the surface to be contradictory together in a tension that. That makes them not contradictory, which I find in other denominations. They want to smooth those contradictions out. They want to smooth those nuances out. They want to have an answer for everything. And Lutheranism embraces a mystery, but it embraces a lot of mystery in such a way that you're not just left with mystery. So two examples might be. One would be law and gospel. The Lutheran view of how law and gospel are two things that are very different and in some ways are opposed to each other just on a surface level, but then actually work in a dynamic way together so that the tension between the two serves each other. Another way might be the Lutheran view of predestination, where Luther says, well, yeah, the Bible says some people are elect, some people are predestined, but it doesn't say that anyone is predetermined or elected to hell. Therefore, we can't make that claim where our Calvinist brothers and sisters say, well, no, logically, if some are elected, then some must be reprobate, and Lutheranism rejects that. So in my natural kind of way that my mind works, I lean towards a Calvinism just in the way, like the logical way. My mind wants to work, but it's not what I see in Scripture. I see these mysteries, I see these nuances. And Lutheranism sort of gave me permission for. For lack of a better word, showed me a way that I could hold these things without saying, oh, I just have to embrace contradiction for the sake of contradiction. Because actually you don't have to embrace pure contradiction. You can embrace mystery and nuance while still actually having promises and a foundation and a grounding to actually hold your life to. There was, I forget who said it wasn't Luther, but it was someone after Luther, but he was a Lutheran. And the question was, what can I, upon hearing that I'm going to die, say amen? So be it. The answer being the Gospel. And I think that ultimately Lutheranism gives you that very strong foundation of the gospel and the God of word and promise, the God who shows up in sacraments. But there's mystery. How does God show up in, with and under communion?

B (13:06)

I don't know.

D (13:07)

I just know he's promised to be there and I know what he does there. So I have appreciated that. And that's why I think Lutheranism is like what Adam said. It is the best witness to the best interpretation, whatever words you want to use, to what the Bible has to say. But I still hold that with humility, too. I'm sure we're going to get into heaven and every denomination. God's going to be like, yeah, you got that right. Not so much that, but we still have to do interpretive work as churches. And I think Lutheranism, because of that hermeneutic, that way of interpreting, of embracing mystery and nuance and truth all at once. It does it for me.

B (13:45)

Nice.

D (13:47)

Did I beat everybody else's answer?

A (13:50)

No, no.

B (13:51)

But it was still good.

A (13:53)

But it was still very good. I think your answer, actually, rather than beating mine and Adams, was a good tie in to both Mayan atoms. Because the reason that tension exists is because we take the Scripture at its word. And the reason that tension can be handled is because we understand that at the end of the day, these are Christ's promises for you. And that even if he leaves some tension in the mix for us, he's got that covered too.

D (14:17)

Mine was like the basket and your Guys was like the eggs. I get it.

A (14:20)

Wow, that's very good.

B (14:24)

Well, I'm going to take a turn. You know, we had every once in a while we get some pushback for using the word Lutheran. And that happened recently. I don't even remember what episode it was, but my dad and I were accused of being in love with the lcms, which is a very interesting accusation, but fine, I'm okay with it, I guess. And one of these comments was, you guys should stop talking about Lutheranism and just start talking about Christianity. To which the question, I just don't understand how this doesn't arise. Which Christianity? Because every preacher, every church has a theology. Every person watching or listening to these shows has a theology. And so you at least have to know what those differences would be. Obviously if you think stop talking about Lutheranism, start talking about Christianity. This person believes in distinctions between various types of theology there. And so for me, I think Lutheranism is compelling among the distinctions for all of the reasons you gave. And I kind of want like for the sake of being able to talk about some of the other reasons like that what Adam said be an underlying principle here, that all of these reasons would be foundational on that it is biblical.

C (16:04)

Right.

B (16:04)

That it's not just good because it seems the most good or it feels the most nice or whatever that is. But to give sort of a practical reason. And you know this just because I grew up in it, but I find the worship to be particularly compelling today. A lot of Christian worship, so in like the American evangelical space is very experiential. It's particularly music driven. And I've been kind of like watching some streams lately of various churches and I'm kind of. When you get to like smaller churches that do this, it seems like a lot of attendance is based around how many people can we cram into the band and how big is their family and friend group. Right. Because they'll come to the concert on Sunday. I know that's kind of like a crass critique of.

A (17:00)

I mean I'm the one that gets criticized doing that kind of thing.

B (17:03)

So of non denominational worship. But when I watch a lot of this stuff and I've been trying to do that to make sure that I'm not making this up, that's definitely how it appears. And then sort of the other flip side of that is sort of like Roman Catholic Mass or something like that where literal theological errors are being done during the service, like for all to see, like the sacrifice of the Mass or the Eucharistic. Prayer or whatever it may be. And so Lutheranism has a very like. Especially sort of the. The way that the liturgy is set up in. In American Lutheran churches for those that follow. It is a very biblical form of worship. Not that there's like exact verses that told us how to lay out this worship, but that each portion of that worship is set up by verses. And for people who say they want some, you know, they want to participate in worship as well, it also offers that the whole service is a series of calls and responses from Scripture. And I don't know if it's just because, again, we've been doing this so long. I've been doing this my whole life. It has only recently reoccurred to me just how much of our hymnals and even from the liturgies to the songs in there and to the hymns in there are just verses from Scripture put in a particular order for us to do. And so then the worship of Lutheranism is the reception of the word of God, both, like, read aloud, proclaimed to you, prayed corporately, preached, given to you as a promise, and baptism in the Lord's Supper, literally just the word of God and then also that word put in your mouth to then speak back and speak aloud and give back to God. So I think that's a very compelling reason. I think it can be hard for people, and I'll hear that sometimes it's one of the biggest barriers for people to come to our churches because it's unfamiliar type of worship today. So it's either not liturgical enough for those going full traditional, or it's so foreign that it's just sort of uncomfortable or novel sort of worship in America today. But I think if we could have the opportunity to catechize people and show them that the worship is very biblical, especially for those sort of evangelical traditions that say that, you know, Lutherans focus on their traditions more than the Bible or something like that, or that denominational Christians are sort of guilty of emphasizing tradition over the Scripture. I find that our worship is a really compelling argument against that. And, yeah, I don't know. That's kind of on a practical reason. One of the things I think is compelling today to the person that said

A (20:07)

that, I don't know. I didn't read the comment. You didn't tell me the comment before the show. But something like, why don't we just talk about Christianity instead of Lutheranism? I just want to say that it's a good comment, but just know that when I talk about Lutheranism, I believe I'm talking about Christianity. If I thought otherwise I would be, you know, X whatever else you could place in there like OPC or. I mean I'm trying to find like things that are still ultra conservative believing Bible believing denominations, which is getting harder. But I would be that thing. I would not be Lutheran particularly even this is going to make Adam lcms Lutheran because of their stance on scripture and their huea confessional subscription. No, I thought you would for me saying that it wasn't a dig on you.

C (21:04)

Oh. Because I just want to say so. Well, you go well go ahead.

A (21:09)

I'm done. That's enough.

C (21:12)

My ping pong. I'm a little taken aback by the ping ponginess that Caleb referred to. I just have been exposed to the inner circle a little bit. So that's why.

B (21:24)

No, no, no. It's a yucky to add to what you said. I think one of the reasons I wanted to pick worship as sort of a response to that is because I feel like sometimes comments or disses like that towards Lutherans or other denominations for me always asks a question which is do you go to a church on Sunday? That's the kind of the question I'm left with after that. Because if you go to a church on Sunday, you go to somewhere with an exclusive confession, whether or not that's really been explored by you or that church is really transparent about that. There is no such thing as a church without a confession of, of faith of some stripe. And so, you know, whether or not they use that word Lutheran or denomination or Presbyterian or Calvinist or Baptist or whatever the whole list of words are, I always, I, you know, and I don't want to put this on whoever commented, but I always feel like those comments come from people who don't go to church because if you go to church you have to find how ridiculous it is to accuse somebody of being attached to the type of church or the confession that they go to that they go to, it's like, oh my gosh, this person really likes the confession that they ascribe to in worship.

A (22:46)

They spend time taking up and setting down the chairs and vacuuming and preparing the communion.

B (22:53)

And if you go to church and you think it's just a Christian church, I promise you it is different than other Christian churches and there's some distinctive there. And whether or not I want to

A (23:05)

promote it, there's a guy on YouTube that does a really good job with

B (23:08)

like

A (23:11)

taking X church that just says Christian church and he'll do a deep dive on their website and eventually finds out that, you know, what church they're actually, what larger denomination they're actually affiliated with. And he's got like, his record is like 98.7%. Like, you give this, give this dude enough time and he's going to find a larger denomination that they're attached to. It's. And so it's just, you start to

B (23:38)

find out there's no such thing as an independent church.

A (23:41)

Right.

B (23:41)

Yeah.

C (23:42)

Can I make a basket comment like Bruce did earlier, that ties in Scott and Caleb's point, Caleb's reference to the, you know, the worship and Scott's reference to that. When we're talking about Lutheran theology, we're talking about Christian theology. What's interesting, like, if you go back to the Reformation, one of the accusations that was levied against the different Reformation traditions that began to emerge, the Protestant traditions, was where was your church before Luther? So in a way, kind of charging the Anabaptists, the various Reformed offshoots, and the Lutherans as being innovators. And if you've been a longtime listener to thinking fellows, you know, Scott and I, at least I think Caleb too, I'm not so sure about Bruce, but we are on team. No innovation.

A (24:34)

Yes, no innovation.

C (24:37)

But the question about where was your church before Luther? Is actually kind of an important question because Christianity is a historical religion. It has a historical theology. If you're looking for a church or if you're wondering why you should go to a Lutheran church or why you should stay in a Lutheran church, as you frame the question early on, Caleb, is when you're. You want to be part of a tradition that just didn't pop up out of nowhere, say in the 16th century or 19th century America or whatever, you want to be a part of a tradition whose theology can be traced back to the apostles. And there's an added bonus if that theology is also coupled with its worship, if you will. That's not to say that the liturgical worship as Caleb described, it can be like you could lift it out of the 16th or the 21st century and move it back to the 1st century. We just don't have enough historical data to know what that really look like. But when you're at a Lutheran church, like a very traditional Lutheran church, you can be confident in that its theology is biblical and also that its liturgy, its worship, participates in the historic worship of the Christian church that extends back before the age of Luther. And along with that, its theology, too, extends back before Lutheran to the apostles. So is that good?

A (26:10)

If anybody. That's Listening is interested and they want to do just the smallest amount of reading to see that and encounter that argument being made sort of in real time. All you would have to do is read, I would say, the Augsburg Confession and the apology to the Augsburg Confession, which can be easily found for free online. And if the apology is too much, because it is more than the Augsburg Confession and you just want to sort of get the taste of it, just read the augsburg Confession. It's 28 articles, most of which are, you know, two paragraphs or less. Some are longer, but some are shorter. So average that out there. And Melanchthon, who is the ultimate researcher, he's the researcher and historian and wordsmith of the Reformation, he makes this argument, the argument that Adam just made in real time while the Reformation is occurring. This is in 1530. This is not some cleverly devised new theology. This is the proper, right, correct theology that the church, when it has been on its game theologically, has been teaching and practicing since the time of the apostles, which is why it's pretty easy to say the reason. When I say Lutheran, I think I'm talking generally about Christianity.

C (27:38)

I'm going to add one thing, if that's right, Caleb, in a sermon, this kind of what Scott just said reminds me of a sermon. I think it's the fourth to last sermon that Luther delivered. I think it's early February of 1546, maybe late January. And he says to his congregation, he's preaching in the context of the. Here's my talking point a lot. But the rise of Islam, which asserts that it's like the religion that extends back to Adam through Abraham. He's written, I guess a couple years prior, he wrote his famous or infamous, probably a better term, books on Judaism, which of course asserts itself as the historical religion. But then he tells his congregation, the people listening to him, I think he's in Mansfeld at the time, and he says to him, take comfort in knowing that which you believe and the God you worship is the same God that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, that Adam and Noah, that all the patriarchs and prophets worshiped. And that for me now, I mean, that's. It's not just rhetoric, it's a theological assertion. But I think if you, if you look at Lutheranism, Lutheran theology, I don't really like the term Lutheranism. It suggests ideology to me.

A (29:03)

But we'll go, you don't like any ism. I'm with it. That's true.

C (29:05)

I don't. But if you look at it closely, you'll find that There are. You know, it's not like this cut and dry, black and white case. But there are good grounds for believing that that's. That's. That really is the Lutheran claim to its legitimacy, that it's the one true faith preserved over the centuries. Though it might look differently, it might speak a different language in different geographical locations. The content, the material principle, the life that flows from that material principle remains the same, though there are forces that are trying to pull that apart. The core is always the same.

A (29:44)

That's great to hear from Luther, because a lot of people don't know this, but Luther's kind of shtick was beyond being a reformer and a preacher. He was an Old Testament scholar. He's the Chad Bird of the Reformation. Sorry. Okay.

C (30:01)

Chad Bird's stock just went up.

B (30:03)

Well, and to add to your sort of ism. Fears, Adam, I mean, our confessions. Right. Lutheran was an insult. The title desired was Evangelical. The Evangelical Faith.

C (30:23)

I need to take it back. I don't know what Scott thinks on that, but I think we need to take back that term.

B (30:27)

I would love to, man. I think the fact that somehow that belongs to a particular type of Americanism, like American Churchism, is crazy. Like, even globally, that evangelicals abroad tend to represent some sort of revivalist, American Low Church, whatever, everywhere is crazy that they won that title.

A (30:54)

Well, they took a couple things from us. Evangelical, even Protestant. I mean, I don't really want Protestant back all that much, but that one.

B (31:02)

Except when the Pope's in town, then I'm protesting, baby.

A (31:06)

That originally applied primarily to Lutheran princes protesting estates.

B (31:14)

Bruce, do you want. Do you have another one here for us this morning? Because I do, too, but everybody's been. We've been taking more free form.

C (31:24)

My excluding Bruce earlier was just a joke, by the way.

D (31:28)

Oh, now he's not so sure about Bruce. Right before I have a chance to.

A (31:31)

Now that everybody's forgotten. Yeah,

B (31:35)

yeah.

D (31:36)

I really appreciate as well the Lutheran view of vocation, which I think is kind of unique to what I see in a lot of other denominations as they explain it, this idea that whatever you're doing, a housewife, a mom, a businessman, airline pilot, a pastor or whatever, all of it is caught up in worship, and all of it is caught up in a life devoted to God. And so you don't have these spheres of a priesthood which is more holy and everybody else, and it appropriates all the work that someone is doing in their life to the glory of God and not just church things. Not only do I think that that's an accurate picture of how Scripture talks about it. But I also think it frees people to. To receive God's gifts as God is giving them, as it relates to their own callings and talents and purposes and things like that. They don't have to go find some. And this is the big deal, right, with everybody. Like, go find some meaning. Go find some purpose. So, okay, when you're in adolescence, you might need to discover what you want to do for a living. That's fine. But I'm talking about this deeper kind of existential search that people go through where Lutheranism is. Like, yeah, wherever you are and are actively working, like, you can do that for the glory of God. And I just think that that frees people to not have to find some kind of superior calling, whatever that would be, and to create some sort of holy hierarchy where there are people over there who God is more pleased with because they have devoted their lives to prayer or they have devoted their lives to charity. And me, I'm just a. I'm just a, you know, single dad. So what is.

B (33:36)

What do I.

D (33:37)

What can I give? I barely, you know, I'm working every day just to try to. Whatever. Or a single mom or whatever it is. Like, I think that it honors where people are at and what they're doing and shows that God is. Is pleased with. Not pleased in like a, you know, righteousness way, but pleased in the fact that, like, yeah, this is how they're serving me and their neighbor.

A (34:03)

Pleased on account of Christ. That's what you're looking for, right?

B (34:06)

Yeah. Let's see here. We've been going around. I've got another one. Unless dad or Adam, you guys want to jump in front of me, I've got a big one.

A (34:18)

For me, it's not a really big one. It's just sort of like a. In a sense, a Hear, hear to Bruce's. And because it freed Christianity, the doctrine of vocation freed Christianity and took it out of the shackles of the professionalism that was the Roman Catholic Church. And it brought service to neighbor, to everybody in their life, in their normal life. And it made it so just a plug for being family, too. It made it so that families also then became little houses of worship and service to God on account of Christ. And that then really opened up the world to a new way of looking at what it means to be a Christian in the world. And it's just another rod story he was walking along with. Is it Bob Meyer? Bob Meyer, right. Adam Bob the math guy.

C (35:22)

Yeah, yeah, that's Bob.

A (35:24)

Yeah, yeah. Cui.

C (35:27)

Brilliant guy.

A (35:28)

Brilliant guy. Yeah. Also supporter 15, 17 walking around Cui one day and kind of, you know, old academics would walk and talk about theology and such. What a world. Now they scuttle along to meetings. But it's true, Adam, huh? Back me up for sure. Yeah, yeah. But they walk and talk, maybe smoke a cigarette, have a conversation. And they're doing this and Bob asks Rod, who's the theologian? What one doctrine do you think had the most impact on the world? And Rod does the correct answer, which is the rediscovery of the gospel of Christ Jesus and salvation coming by grace alone through faith alone, on account of Christ alone. And Bob says, I don't think so. I think it was the doctrine of vocation. And I think there's something to that, like in the day to day life of the Christian that really the Lutheran doctrine of vocation, which again just for that guy is the Christian doctrine of vocation really sort of opened the world up to being able to live your life in the world as a Christian.

B (36:45)

Yeah, well, mine attaches to that and is also hopefully a plug for your book which can be pre ordered now, which is being family also. This is a great opportunity right now to plug a bunch of different stuff going on. So there's still tickets available for our Here We Still Stand conference in Bentonville, Arkansas. We call that a regional event. It's in northwest Arkansas in the Bentonville, downtown Bentonville. And I'll put a link to the show notes below. But that's on baptism this year, which is going to be pretty excellent. Each person, I think is being given a different section of scripture to discuss sort of the gifts, the promises, the benefits, the who, what, when, where, how and why of baptism. So if you haven't been to one of our conferences before, go ahead and take a look at that. That's in early May this year or early I should now.

C (37:44)

And before that, March 13th and 14th in Dallas area is the apologetics conference. So I don't want you to forget that.

B (37:53)

Good job, Adam. Place all over the country. So if you're in the broader Texas area, yes, we know Texas is very large, but if you're in the broader Texas area, check out this apologetics conference in Dallas. Links in the show notes below to both of those. Okay, so mine tying into your book, dad, tying into your comment, maybe even vocational a little bit, I think one of the ways that Lutheranism is extremely compelling and something that people should consider is the way it treats your kids, which is that they are full members of the faith from their conception to their life as a little baby, to their growing up, to becoming adults, and even to their death that the Lutheran Church has an emphasis on ministry that encompasses the whole life. Children are not treated as sort of an extra or an encumbrance or something, or little people who are potential, who might be Christians one day. But the full gifts, benefits and promises of, of the scripture of Jesus Christ and the gospel are regularly and continually delivered to them. I think it is absolutely amazing that within the Lutheran tradition, families worship together, that children are a part of the corporate worship, that your children will learn the scriptures through this. Singing hymns, singing parts of the liturgy, saying and confessing their sins, getting the forgiveness of sins. Yesterday I was joking with my son Emerson, if he listened to the sermon at all, and he said, yes. And I said, okay, what was it about? And he said he couldn't remember. And I said, why did you even go to church? And guess what he said back to me? To get my sins forgiven, man. Was that a good answer? And is that true? So at least he knows one thing about going to church. And I think that's the benefit of Lutheranism. These kids learn very quickly, can learn very quickly. Why do you.

A (40:08)

If he'd have said even the sin of not listening in church, even the

B (40:11)

sin that would have been really good, no, and to get my sins forgiven. And then I asked him, were his sins forgiven? And he said, yes, they were. And so you can learn it, you can keep it, and it's deliverable to children. That's one of the benefits of sort of the repetition that happens in Lutheran churches. And I think it's also one of the benefits of being a church that is sort of founded on biblical doctrine and not experiences or not the rhetoric of your pastor or whatever else it may be, because you can sort of come back to those truths Sunday after Sunday, that we're all sort of learning and being catechized, but also getting sure proclamation. And I think for some of the traditions that treat children differently than adults, so there's separate children's worship or separate children's Bible study. You kind of see that they function in that there's two modes. There's like the emotional engagement mode for those who have already committed their life to Christ in worship. This very music forward experience that then ends in sort of lesson for you to take away for the day in your life, usually telling you to be a good parent or a good American or something like that. But then children are sent off to Bible Study or children's church, because it's. That's where you need to get all the information, because they're going to have to make a decision to be a Christian one day. And so we got to impart all of the information that would help them make that decision. Now, I think in Lutheranism, for better or for worse, there's less of a panic about that because you're not worried that your children are going to have this mysterious day where they have to decide if they're a Christian and it's a secret. And you're going to have to explore the world and explore their life until you reveal the secret. You get to just give them the Christian faith, hand over the Christian faith, hand over the Scriptures. And of course, teaching and catechizing is part of that. But not to help them make a decision, but instead to help them understand, to help them grow, to help them cling to the promises of Christ. And our tradition has historically put a lot of emphasis on that. Despite not believing, you have to make a decision for Jesus later in life. We've put a huge amount of emphasis on educating children and raising a Christian household. So I think it's a strong suit for us.

A (42:57)

I have a funny story.

B (42:58)

Go for it.

A (43:00)

So last week after church, I asked Caleb's oldest, Esther, because we had fellowship last week. So I was sitting across the table from her eating whatever somebody made and said, hey, what was the sermon about?

B (43:14)

Carrot?

A (43:15)

No, we have, like. We've got this Hawaiian lady who brings, like, authentic Hawaiian food and authentic Mexican food. I mean, it's. Our fellowships are pretty.

B (43:25)

Pretty.

A (43:26)

What would the kids say these days? Fire. Pretty fire lately. I asked her, so what's the sermon about? And she goes, I don't know. You said Jesus, blahdy blahdy, blahdady, this or that, blah blah. That's all I remember. Starts trying to take notes. And I thought I was like a proud pappy. I'm like, oh, she listened to. She remembers from last week that I told her she should take notes and she's gonna do it. So I'm gonna sit here and help her. And so she starts writing down, like, right in the middle of this page. Like, she's never written on a piece of paper. Like, just random words, like, all over the place. I'm like, what are you doing? She goes, oh, I'm taking notes on the sermon.

B (44:10)

Okay.

A (44:10)

So I help her take all these elaborate notes, and at the end of church, she looks at two of the sentences. I helped her take the elaborate notes. She goes, I have no idea what either one of the sentences mean. So I talked to Caleb after church and he's like, yeah. And I told Esther to take notes. And I was like, oh, well, she wasn't very good at it. He goes, that's because I told her just to write down important words. I told her, working against each other, doing the same thing.

B (44:35)

I told her, I said, you're not ready to take full notes yet, but what you can do is listen for the 10 most important words in the sermon and then we could talk about them after church to see if you got it right.

A (44:45)

So I'm like, what are you doing? Writing down random words. Let's take some notes here.

B (44:52)

Well, that is pretty funny. That would have been a good story for Being Family. Too bad, too bad. It's already available for pre order right now.

A (45:03)

That would have been a good story for Being Family.

B (45:05)

Yeah, but it lasts. Being Family is less.

A (45:08)

You pointed this out to me. Is less story centered.

B (45:11)

It is. It's much more. Let's just close this out by making a plug for that. Yeah, Being Family is available now. It's a pre order. It's a second book. I would say to. I don't know if you're going to do another one eventually, dad, but it's a sequel to Being Dad. But from what I can tell, what you tried to do here is to create a book that can be used for Bible studies, for sort of instruction and answers some of the pragmatic questions that people had. Because after Being dad, you had people ask a lot of questions. Well, like how do I play this out in real life? This one is much more designed for like the note taking for the practical application for studying together with people, like group reading. Being Dad I think might have more heavy hitting emotional impact. Just personally for me, maybe I'm wrong. People who read both and it's much more narrative, but this is studyable. So if you have questions about raising a Christian family, how forgiveness of sins works in the home, how the home is a place of worship, how education of your children in the faith starts in the home and is supported by and has fulfillment in the church and things like that, Being Family is an excellent resource. It's accessible length, it's got study notes in it, which when I was reading about it, I wasn't sure about. But then I remembered just how much you talked about people wanting to use the last number.

A (46:57)

If I go teach on Being dad, the number, there's always two questions. I would get one. Okay, so specifically, what does this look like And I'd be like. And then number two was, why don't you have study questions on here? And so I tried to address both of those concerns. And the other thing I'd say about being family, maybe the reason it's slightly less sort of narratively personal too, is it's broad. I'm trying to talk about this from the perspective of children, parents, grandparents, aunts and uncles, family friends. Like, it's broad. Whereas being dad, yeah, it's a little more emotional, a little more narrative because I was literally talking about being a dad from the perspective of being a dad. And this is a little more broad. This is actually the family. Right up to and including your church family.

B (47:54)

Yeah. So Pre order now, shop.1517.org and Amazon link is in the show notes below.

A (48:01)

Buy two because somebody's going to want to borrow it. And you should never lend books.

B (48:05)

That's a great idea. Well, we thank you for listening. We thank you for those of you who support the mission opportunities of 1517. If you're a thinking fellows listener and you're hearing this, don't click away yet. Make sure to go subscribe on YouTube. Even if you don't watch podcasts, go over to the 1517 channel and you can subscribe. And there's usually short videos videos there, often on the same topic as a thinking fellows episode, sometimes answering or asking different questions. In fact, a lot of the times that I've recorded them with these guys. In between this recording and that one, somebody goes, oh my gosh, I can't believe we didn't talk about whatever it was on the podcast. And we fill that in on that episode over there. So you should definitely go check those out. We thank you for listening. We'll catch you next time. Bye,

A (48:58)

Sam.