B (3:20)

So hopefully I woke up an hour early. But I did not talk. And since no one is at my house, I just Sat and watched YouTube.

A (3:25)

In fact, the talking I did was I read the last couple of chapters of the Hobbit out loud to my son, who was also up early this morning. So. And he was. He really likes getting read to, so that was nice. He had fun with that. And then I think we've. We've talked about this before, and. But my dad and I only live half mile apart, and we're in the same, you know, small little mountain neighborhood. And it snowed yesterday. And I walked down here this morning from my house, and even though this is a Tolkien episode, it was very Narnia, I gotta say. Like, as I was walking up my street, if you walk, you know, up my street, you are facing a mountain covered in pine trees covered in snow with fog rolling over it. Just the breaking of dawn coming through. It was very, very cool. And then I'm walking the final couple blocks, and there's one on the whole walk. Lamp post.

B (4:32)

Yeah, there is. It's on Imperial.

A (4:34)

Yeah, on Imperial, there's one lamppost in the middle of this snow falling out of the trees. And I was like, your wife and.

B (4:39)

I have talked about that. She's like, why is there the one? I said, I suppose somebody got hit there.

A (4:45)

Yeah, somebody got hit there.

B (4:46)

And their response was to put up a light. Yeah, because otherwise, if you walk through our neighborhood, there's. There's no lights. So it's not like a. A real neighborhood where there's, like, sidewalks and no sidewalks, you know, street lights and everything. There's no sidewalks, there's no street lights. It's just dark in streets.

A (5:04)

So, yeah. So I got in a very Narnia mood this morning to talk about the Hobbit.

C (5:10)

I live on a street that doesn't have any street lights or sidewalks. And this is way off topic, but it's kind of a fun story. There's no. There no sidewalks, but other neighborhoods have sidewalks. And I'm told that for, I guess, since the 1960s, people in this neighborhood have been resisting the state or the county, I guess, and its intrusion into their property and putting sidewalks. So they build or they'll plant trees, like, right where a sidewalk would go. So that they have to, you know, get extra. The state would have to get extra Permission to build a sidewalk and so on. So for so 60 years, I guess they've been fighting, sticking it to the county. I don't know what that has to do with the Hobbit or anything you're talking about, but it just, it doesn't.

B (5:57)

What do we call this? It's an unincorporated.

A (5:59)

We're in unincorporated area.

B (6:01)

Area. So our unincorporated area just put in a sidewalk from the park to nowhere.

A (6:07)

To nowhere.

B (6:08)

Literally to nowhere. Like five months doing this beautiful sidewalk that. It goes nowhere. Like it, it stops before the next major street. It stops. It's like this little five unit housing cul de sac thing. It stops right there.

A (6:24)

But not into the entrance.

B (6:26)

Yeah, actually I run it. It goes into the entrance. Yeah. It's weird.

C (6:32)

Are they planning something?

B (6:33)

But there's this really. The street that is just down from us that's kind of like the main connector street for both my neighborhood street and Caleb's. There's been just a lot of death.

A (6:45)

Yeah, yeah, no, there has.

B (6:47)

Because we get. We get flatlanders that come up, you know, and rent a house up here and they'll go for a walk and there's a little bar at the end of the street and they'll go for a walk. But they're going for a walk. Like at 10 o' clock at night.

A (6:58)

It's pitch black.

B (6:59)

It's pitch black. And people especially locals haul butt on the street.

A (7:03)

Yeah, they drive too fast for sure.

B (7:05)

So that could have really used a sidewalk.

A (7:08)

It really could have used a sidewalk.

B (7:10)

And it did not get one. But the other street got this long sidewalk to nowhere, which I run on. So I'm the only person I've ever seen on it.

A (7:21)

Well, walking in sidewalks to nowhere can maybe tie into Tolkien literature a little bit.

B (7:27)

There's a lot of walking literature.

A (7:30)

It is never short of walking in this. And the Hobbit. Well, a little less walking than what our next fictional book would be, which is Fellowship of the Ring where there's a lot of walking. But no, the Hobbit. The Hobbit definitely has some walking. Tolkien, I think liked his walking vacations. They were into that in the uk.

C (7:53)

Yeah, they still are. They walk along the countryside, you know, a couple mile walk on Sunday, you know, walk across some stumble across these. You know, it's not just Stonehenge that's there. There's tons of these little old. I don't know if they're Druid or.

B (8:11)

What they are, but there's wood hinges and stone hinges.

C (8:13)

Yeah, yeah, there's. There's walking paths everywhere.

B (8:17)

That's how in Lewis's Ransom trilogy or the Space trilogy, that's how Ransom gets into trouble.

A (8:21)

Is it walking?

B (8:22)

Yeah. He's on a walking holiday and he gets stuck in a storm and goes out to this estate to try to find shelter. And the estate is of course where he runs into the bad people that take him to his face.

A (8:36)

So. Yeah. So the. The walking adventure.

C (8:42)

You know it's hard in reading this is having watched the movies though it's been a while is. I know the. The Hobbit. The three Hobbit movies are very well, there's quite a bit added than what's in the actual book. But reading this and trying not to keep the images from the movie out of your head as you're thinking about what a goblin looks like.

B (9:04)

That's why Rod won't watch the movies.

C (9:07)

Oh really?

B (9:07)

Yeah.

A (9:08)

I find it easier with these ones than the others. But that's probably because I don't have as fond nostalgia for the Hobbit movies. I mean I went to. We went. We went and saw them progressively as they came out like the night of. And a couple things ruined those. Number one, like the advancement and just regularness of CGI versus practical effects. Now the Lord of the Rings definitely has some CG elements and CG isn't always bad. But you can see this like if you watch the Lord of the Rings trilogy and then you watch the Hobbit trilogy, you go from something that is loads and loads of practical effects to predominantly cg with the practical effects being sort of the making of men into dwarves. But outside of that. Yeah, the practical effects disappear and that's sort of tangible and it allows them to do like weirder and weirder stuff with goblins and orcs etc, where. Where actually we. With the new Rings of Power they returned a bit to some more practical effects. When it comes to characters and such like orcs were all practical effects.

B (10:34)

I didn't. Well, we can. I didn't. I did not appreciate the CG and the one that was on Netflix.

A (10:42)

Amazon. Amazon. But yeah, I've been thinking about how to do this for a couple days. Where to start. Because the Hobbit is something that you can't really spoil. It's an older book than I even remembered. So you can't spoil it. It's part of just sort of pop culture in general and. And I think I would just start with that context which is. It's much. Does anybody have the exact date?

B (11:13)

1937.

A (11:14)

Yeah, the 30s. That's pretty old. And it doesn't feel old.

B (11:19)

It's written roughly between 1929 and 1936.

A (11:24)

Yeah. Wow. It doesn't feel that old when I think about the Hobbit. Which tells you something about how long, how much of an impact the Lord of the Rings and in the Hobbit have had on the culture. Because the content feels renewed all of the time, whether it's movies or just sort of influence. You guys feel the same way.

C (11:50)

I suppose. Your dad and I were texting each other as we were reading through this or listening. Scott, you listened to it right on audiobook at 100ft or something.

B (12:01)

He's a little grumpy, doing other things.

C (12:04)

Little grumpy about because. And I kind of had the same or similar experience. And I think I read it when I was a teenager in high school. I think I talked. We talked last episode, Caleb, you and I, about. I had that punk rock music playing in the background, but I had turn it off to pay attention. I really got into it when I was a teenager. But now it's Adam listening to Social.

B (12:25)

Distortion and reading the Hobbit.

C (12:27)

Well, this even more punk than that. Like Exploited or Dead.

B (12:30)

Oh, yeah.

C (12:33)

But this time, man, it was a bit of a. Maybe it was because it was a bit of a chore. It was a bit of a chore. And I'm reading it knowing that I've got to remember or looking for juicy stuff to talk about, you know, and. But while I'm reading, I just want to enjoy the story. So I guess kind of reading a book, kind of like a conquering army, as Jim Nestigen would say, that's definitely.

B (12:58)

This time around how I approach this, I gotta say that this really stood out for me. Again. So if we were sitting in the Eagle and Child and having a debate like Lewis and Tolkien did about how to approach children's literature, I would be arguing Lewis's position, not Tolkien's. And this reminded me of that.

A (13:22)

There's a strange, I would say the pattern that I find myself in with Tolkien. And this can go into what Adam and I talked about with how he gets adopted by sort of pop culture and other. He, you know, he reintroduces sort of this adventure fantasy genre. He's influencing every piece of fantasy in the pop culture that, you know, whether it's video games, TVs, movies, board games, Dungeons and Dragons, it really all gets renewed by Tolkien. And one of the reasons is he pumps an insane amount of detail in spaces where you wouldn't necessarily expect it. And it's not always, and this is maybe the difference between he and Lewis. It's not always details that are moving the story forward. In fact, most of the time where there's an excessive amount of detail it's not an element that is pushing things forward. I never feel like this critique of Lewis that there isn't enough detail in his work is true. I just feel like the detail is used to advance the story more. Whereas. Whereas Tolkien is using it to sort of fill the room, fill the space. And I think that's where the source material aspect of Tolkien really comes in. Like if you're going to bar. If you're going to build a race of Dwarves that becomes the lasting picture of Dwarves for now almost 100 years. If the Hobbit is 1936. Right. We're 10, what, 13 years short of a hundred years of influence of the picture of these various types of people and places and things in our minds. You have to have a lot of detail there. And he's obviously accomplished that. Although I think in the case of like what we tried to do which was read the book in about a week it can make it kind of difficult. The Hobbit was long.

B (15:31)

I didn't find the pace of it difficult. I just compared to. And maybe it's because of the. The excess of detail which I don't even think is the case in the Hobbit as much as it is in the other books. It's just. I don't know. It's kind of slow.

A (15:50)

It's kind of slow. Yeah.

C (15:52)

A lot of walking.

A (15:54)

So we can give the basic outline of it. So just. I mean I think most people are familiar with it but Bilbo is a Hobbit. He lives in the Shire. Hobbits are in a hole.

C (16:07)

In a hole in the ground there lived a Hobbit.

B (16:10)

But not the kind of hole that you imagine when you hear a hole in the ground.

A (16:13)

Yeah. A well furnished hole in the ground lives a Hobbit. And a Hobbit is a. Somewhere between a Dwarf and a man man. What's a half man is a half man. Yeah. With furry feet and lacks a sense of adventure. And really loves the hole. The well furnished hole in the ground.

B (16:36)

Although in Bilbo's family there has been some history of hobbits going on adventures.

A (16:42)

Yeah. Which is on one side of the family.

B (16:45)

On one side of the family.

A (16:48)

And this little hobbit gets drafted into an adventure by. By Gandalf the wizard who. See this is just where some of this detail comes in. Bilbo knows Gandalf Gandalf's.

B (17:02)

But doesn't recognize him when he first.

A (17:04)

Sees him but doesn't recognize him when he first sees him. That there's some sort of history there between Gandalf and the Hobbits at this point in time. And Gandalf invites a party of dwarves to Bilbo's house. Basically without his knowledge or consent.

C (17:24)

They just sort of show up and pile in.

A (17:26)

They show up and pile in for another by. And. And Gandalf essentially puts a secret marker on. On his door. Has told these dwarves that Bilbo is a thief for hire.

C (17:38)

Pause for a second. That secret mark, it's rune, right? It's the.

A (17:40)

It. It's a rune.

C (17:42)

Yeah, yeah. Which is a Anglo Saxon character which, I mean this is. I guess I probably shouldn't have interjected because it's going to take us a little off. But one of the things in looking at the background or sort of the scholarly secondary sources on the Hobbit is just how much Anglo Saxon mythology goes into the Hobbit consciously and subconsciously. Like the word Hobbit itself I guess is a word that Tolkien just. It just sort of came to Tolkien's mind. But it's. You can find that word in Anglo Saxon literature. And he had been reading some Anglo Saxon literature and I think maybe it just sort of was. Was in his head. But he didn't really. The story is that he was reading, grading essays. One at the end of one semester or a quarter I guess it would have been. And he comes across a. You know, like those blue books we had in college. Scott, you remember those. Rod used to have. Have us write essays in these blue books. I don't know if they're blue books over there in England in the 1920s, but there's an. You know, all these very ambitious Oxford students are filling up the booklet and he comes across one where there's an empty page, I guess at the end. And he's so thankful he gives a student the equivalent of an A because they hadn't written so much. But on the last page I guess he just kind of. I guess one of our friends would call it a stream of consciousness. You know, just writes in a hole there lived a hobbit. And that's sort of the thing that gets this moving. But there's a scholar at Gordon Cromwell Seminary, I think It's Ryan Reeve, Dr. Ryan Reeve, who talks about how, or has written about how Tolkien in his day to day sort of research, reading all this Anglo Saxon literature. There's all this stuff that is in his head and it comes out in the Hobbit. Sometimes it's purposeful, sometimes it's just part of Tolkien's, if you will, subconscious worldview. So you get these hobbits and like, Gandalf is. So there's a. An old Norse mythological text called the Elder Edas that was discovered in the 1800s, I guess, in some farmhouse somewhere, but it dates way back and it has a list. All the, all the dwarves that are listed. That was it, 13 dwarves. Those names appear in the Elder Eat Us. And the last name there is Gandalf or. And so it's. They don't. I don't. I can't remember whether Dr. Reeves says Tolkien purposely sort of lifted or not plagiarized, but, you know, borrowed or if it just was subconscious. But all this stuff, all this detail is detail that Tolkien gains from other source material.

A (20:30)

Yeah, that. I think that's. I think that's why, you know, like, so he's. He's the father of modern fantasy. But the, the reason it's so good and the reason is because you can still go back farther than Tolkien in many ways. Right? Tolkien's not the inventor of elves. He repurposes the elf. He's not the inventor of dwarves. He repurposes the, the dwarf. Right. He. He puts all these things together and creates a, you know, a picture that, that melds and works together that ultimately gets used by just practically everybody and in many ways sort of determines what the mind's eye sees when they see all these things. And it starts with, like, just this little adventure in the Shire of Hobbit getting dragged around Middle Earth by dwarves.

B (21:26)

Yeah. I mean, Lewis and Tolkien both do that, Right. They draw heavily on old Norse and Anglo Saxon literature and sources to create types of characters. Dwarves, I think. I thought it was funny when you're saying when you imagine a dwarf, you imagine it like a dwarf that Tolkien created. And I wonder how much of that is because of the movies. Yep. Well, Lewis has dwarves, of course, in the Chronicles of Narnia, they're a little less prominent and they sort of are both good and evil.

A (22:02)

Tolkien mentions that in this one as well, how most Dwarves are not of the very good sort.

B (22:07)

Right. And that. But I think, you know, there weren't as many of those movies and the Dwarves didn't play as prominent a role in the stories or the movies. Although in the lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, the dwarf is kind of there right off the Bat.

A (22:23)

So I would say the movies definitely. Yeah. When you picture stuff. But predating movies things like classes of characters with certain attributes in say Dungeons and Dragons is. I mean almost self Tolkien. They are based off of Tolkien's.

B (22:41)

Oh, I believe that. I just think it's interesting. And it could just be the detail.

A (22:44)

Right.

B (22:45)

He provides so much detail about.

C (22:46)

Yeah.

B (22:47)

Their lives and their character and that type of thing that Lewis just doesn't really do that sort of.

A (22:52)

I mean he gives you full facial features.

C (22:53)

Yeah.

B (22:54)

That dwarf just kind of shows up.

A (22:55)

Yeah.

B (22:56)

In service of the Queen.

A (22:57)

In service the Queen. And. And you know, because he's. He's short and angry. Right. Yeah, that's kind of the. That's kind of what you get. But yeah. So. Yeah.

C (23:09)

Sorry. Course.

A (23:10)

But that's okay. I mean the thing is, is being. Because of this we don't even have to sit and describe a dwarf very much. Right. To say that Bilbo is greeted by 14 dwarves.

B (23:22)

I will say one of the things that I was reminded of a little bit that I remember thinking when I first came across sort of. So in the movies, of course the Lord of the Rings trilogy comes out first and then the Hobbit comes out sometime later. Which is kind of backwards of how the books are written or not kind of is backwards. It's hard to sort of remember when you're watching those how Lewis describes things like the Dwarves and the elves.

A (23:55)

But the.

B (23:56)

And then comparing them to what you see in the movies. The elves are much more sort of like Elvish in a kind of whimsical way in the books that they just aren't in the movies.

A (24:11)

Only the serious tones have been taken.

B (24:13)

Only the serious tones have been taken. Which you do get from what is the Woodland Elves. More from sort of like. But even Elrond, as he's sort of characterized in the movies is always serious, you know. And in the books he's. He's quite a bit more whimsical. Playful. Azar, the elves that they first meet on the road poking fun at dwarves and such.

A (24:37)

Yeah, they do. Yeah. So that. That one's interesting as well. Let's. We can advance to there. I just want to move maybe a little bit. Right.

C (24:47)

So you want to get past chapter one.

A (24:49)

I just. Just give the outline so that we can then hop around, I suppose is that, you know, Gandalf puts this rune on the door. 13 elves show or Dwarves show up. They think they've been told Bilbo's a burglar who of great repute of great repute. Gandalf sort of tricked them as well. He. I think this is important. Gandalf sort of puts this little mess together between the Hobbit and the Dwarves, both sides not really knowing what they're getting into or who they're going with. And they leave the Shire. They leave the Shire, they run into trolls pretty quickly.

B (25:31)

And Bilbo shows himself to be a fairly poor burglar.

A (25:34)

Shows himself to be a very poor burglar. Sort of sets alarms. The trolls gets captured. The Dwarves try to save the day. That doesn't go very well. Ultimately, Gandalf has to.

B (25:47)

Come in, expose them into sunlight.

A (25:49)

Yeah, he distracts. He ends up sort of distracting and confusing the trolls until they leave themselves exposed to sunlight. Trolls exposed to sunlight becomes stone in Tolkien's world. And they're set free, as they should in every world. Yeah. And they're set free. They come across some treasure and in some important things, including some weapons, Elvish weapons, ancient Elvish weapons that were used to kill orcs and goblins. And journey moves on. They end up in Elven City, but they end up with the elves, with Elrond.

B (26:32)

Well, they first get in this battle with the goblins, right?

A (26:37)

Oh, yeah. Is that. Is it goblins, then elves, or is it elves and goblins? Oh, no, it's been a week. It's elves and goblins.

B (26:45)

Sorry.

C (26:45)

Yeah, yeah.

A (26:46)

No, then they end up with that.

B (26:47)

I was skinning up a very steep hill when I was listening this.

A (26:51)

They end up with. They end up with the elves. Elrond is there now. Elrond. This is where, like, I mean, Tolkien we. I mean, I think from context, we know is not planning further books as this is being written. Like the Lord of the Rings isn't being imagined yet, nor is any of the extended lore. And Elrond becomes one of the most sort of revisited characters in all of Tolkien's work. He's prominent in or plays a pivotal role in all of the works. He's part of the extended lore as well in the sort of the Lost Tales and Silmarillion and stuff. And is the focus of the current expansion of this. Now that Tolkien didn't write. But the current expansion of the Lord of the Rings universe with Rings of Power as well, very central. So from this one little. From this one elf that he starts in this one off what is intended originally to be one off adventure story spans like a character in a universe and elves around him.

B (27:57)

He's very old.

A (27:58)

He's very old. So they. Elrond Gives them some ponies. He enlightens them on some secret information hidden on a map that comes in useful.

B (28:09)

They only see by moonlight of a particular moon, a particular part of the year. At a particular part of the year. That would be very annoying.

A (28:18)

That would be. I love that they're like at. In Elrond's house on the night of the year.

C (28:24)

That.

A (28:24)

That.

B (28:25)

That you can see it.

A (28:26)

That you can read the map.

B (28:27)

Convenient.

A (28:28)

He gives them supplies and some ponies. Ponies are a recurring theme. Tolkien must have really liked the ponies because they're like these. These guys get ponies like four times in this book. And then ponies are prevalent in Lord of the Rings also.

B (28:43)

Well, he hated cars, so.

A (28:45)

Oh, okay. That makes sense.

C (28:48)

So, you know, because they're all short.

A (28:50)

Yeah, they're all short.

C (28:51)

Yeah.

A (28:52)

So they get some ponies. A bunch of stuff happens. They end up inside a mountain full of goblins. They get ran out of them now, actually.

B (29:04)

Well, the goblins are originally not as ticked off as you would think when capturing them until they see these Elvish blades that are pretty much intended to kill goblins.

A (29:16)

Yeah.

C (29:16)

Yeah.

B (29:17)

And then they get real upset that they're there and killed.

A (29:19)

All that. During some hustle and bustle with the goblins. Bilbo falls down a cave inside the.

B (29:28)

Mountain and meets another very recurring character.

A (29:31)

And he meets another very recurring character. Gollum. WHISPER AND sound EFFECTS Gollum wants to eat Bilbo. I think that's sort of like the. The notable thing. Like he. He's this cave creature that is eating things that fall down from up above. So basically goblins that fall down the hole, maybe scraps of food, bones. They get taught trash. So you get this very, very dangerous creature, you would think, at the bottom. I mean, a very desperate.

B (30:09)

Teach you not to go down watery holes. Maybe there's a life lesson in there that Tolkien's trying to tell his kids.

A (30:16)

Don't fall down. Don't go exploring in caves where you can't see things.

B (30:20)

He mentions that earlier on that that's what makes caves such dangerous things. You can't often see how large they are or what's at the back of them.

A (30:29)

Or what's at the back of them. Yeah. And Gollum is in possession of a ring, a ring of power, one might say.

B (30:40)

You don't know this, though.

A (30:41)

You do not know this yet, but he's in possession of a ring. That Bilbo finally ups his game as a burglar.

B (30:49)

Yeah, well, he actually becomes a burglar because of the ring.

A (30:52)

Yeah. And well he's. And it's. And steals the ring essentially from. From Gollum as well. Finds it. Lost. Initially Gollum has been searching for it. He lost it. And Bilbo keeps it. Kind of knows that this is what Gollum is looking for. The precious.

B (31:10)

Get the. As you were whispering at him, the riddle scene.

A (31:14)

And they have a. They have a riddle off.

B (31:15)

A riddle off.

A (31:16)

Yeah. Now there's.

B (31:18)

Which Bilbo like wins but full on cheating. It's not a riddle.

A (31:24)

No, no, he cheats.

B (31:27)

He wins by what's in my pocket. Yeah. How the hell am I supposed to.

A (31:31)

That's not a riddle. Now I'm curious.

C (31:36)

You.

A (31:37)

We all probably have newer versions of the book but this riddle game ends two different ways. I didn't. So this is sort of. I was wondering why I have a quote critical edition. I didn't even know one could have such. I didn't even know that it was just what was on my library on my bookshelf. I didn't. It must. I don't even know where I got it. But I was reading through some of the differences and Tolkien changes the ending of the riddle scene after the Lord of the Rings is written to make it more sense.

B (32:10)

Yeah, yeah.

C (32:11)

In 1953.

A (32:14)

Something like that. Yeah. Look at Adam. Yeah. He. He edits it. So at the end of I'm. I think the version we probably all read, Gollum sort of freaks out after he loses the riddle game and is sort of threatening to, you know, eat Bilbo and take the ring back anyways because he. After the little what's in my pocket? He kind of figures out that Bilbo's taken something from him. And he adds. He edited in this scene of the aggravated Gollum which apparently was originally just Gollum saying congratulations, you've won the riddle game. Have a nice day.

B (32:53)

You know. Let me take you to the exit.

A (32:56)

Yeah. I also. I'll show you the way out.

B (32:58)

I will be an honorable evil person.

A (33:00)

Yes. So he goes from being an honorable cave dwelling creature to a ferocious one because of the gravity of what he's apparently lost. Is the. Is the change here. So if you read this today, you'll get a very angry golem. And yeah. They escape the cave with much trouble and the assistance of the ring which Bilbo finds out inside the cave that if he puts it on makes him invisible. And they get chased by some goblins outside of the cave down a mountain. Which ends up with an extended scene of them trapped in trees for a very Long time. For an excessive amount of time actually. You notice how long they're just like up in trees throwing pine cones at goblins. Gandalf's back at the end of the cave. It is also trapped up. That's the other thing. You have this. So you have these little men and then you have like this six and a half foot tall wizard stuck up in a tree lighting. And Gandalf is like, he's described in this book as sort of being a wizard of fire and light. All right? And so he's lighting pine cones on fire and tossing them on goblins and lighting goblins on fire with explosive pine cones.

B (34:23)

It's pretty rad.

A (34:23)

It's. It's actually pretty, pretty funny. He's whispering into pine cones, lighting them on fire and tossing them into goblins. They're rescued by eagles, which is a reoccurring theme right in this. Lord of the Eagles saves them. There's said the eagles save them not because they like dwarves or hobbits but because they really don't like goblins. The eagles also really don't like goblins.

B (34:52)

I mean, who does?

A (34:53)

Yeah, who does like goblins? They get saved eagles. They, they go back on their adventure. They end up in the house of a bear man. Bjorn. He's a man by day. Yeah, from Beowulf. He's a man by day, bear by night. They spent some time there, a long time at Bjorn's place relative to the length of the story. Set off again on adventure. Run into some spiders, also a reoccurring thing. Some, some giant spiders. Bilbo really coming into his own, reveals that he at the time of spiders reveals he has the ring to the dwarves, that it makes him invisible and that he saved their butts a couple times via invisibility. And then also this sets up sort of a backdrop for later that Bilbo does a lot of damage to the spiders with this elvish sword that he got at the trolls named Sting. And later Frodo has that sword right on the adventure in Lord of the Rings. And the spiders remember the sword much like the goblins remember the sword from when elves were killing goblins. So there's, there's definitely some like thing with long memory here as well that goes on and generational memory that is set up. They go to a long lake. They, they meet. They meet men who make barrels and tubs and stuff like that.

B (36:33)

Well, for exchanging good with the woodland elves. Right?

C (36:36)

Yeah.

A (36:36)

Right. They have a relationship with the elves.

B (36:38)

It's like their, their barge cargo System.

A (36:40)

Yeah. Yeah. So they make barrels. Yeah, they make barrels and spend some time there. And then they end up at the Lonely Mountain and Bilbo, they find the. This secret door that. The map that Elrond read in the moon that.

B (36:59)

It.

A (36:59)

They end up waiting. It's funny. So for all this detail that he packs in, in two sentences he passes like 10 days in front of this door as they're just sitting in front of this door not knowing how to open it. Eventually the door sort of opens by. By the key that Thorin has. And being the right time with the moon shining on it we got this whole moon connection again, which is funny. It's almost like, as I was reading it was almost like Tolkien remembered suddenly that he added this moon part because it happens very quick. It's like we can't remember to open the door. Oh, crap, the moon is on the door. Open it quickly. Then Bilbo sneaks in and there's a dragon on the treasure. Steal some treasure, awakens the dragon. Smog. And then that's basically. I mean, we're getting towards the end here, so we could probably now fill in. I don't know what you guys want to do, but a couple things stand out to me. The long. The long. Such generational memory thing is very notable sort of aspect of his storytelling to me. We see this with these Elvish swords. We see it later in the Lord of the Rings. We see it with the spiders. We see there's. There's definitely. In the Dwarves. The whole mission of the Dwarves has to do with generational memory as well.

B (38:29)

Well, he does that too later on when he kind of. Doesn't he take like a. He does a pause on telling the story of the adventures and goes back to tell the story of when Smaug first came into Lake Town.

C (38:44)

Yeah.

A (38:45)

Yeah.

B (38:45)

So he kind of always sets up the history. I like that part of it. Yeah.

A (38:51)

I think. I mean, we should. We should try to find ways. And Adam and I already said this is going to be difficult. But if we're trying to find ways and we're sort of Christian influence or Tolkien's catholicity comes into the worldview that produces these stories. I feel like the handing down of tradition, of tradition of story from generation to generation by telling the story is a significant part of this.

B (39:24)

Here's part of my struggle with the analysis of this is that I can see this as a good, fun story that you might tell your kids if you were a more imaginative person than I am, which is seemingly what he did. I'm just too dense to see sort of the deeper meaning in this. I just. I am. I don't know how it escapes me and it. Everybody else sees it, but it escapes me. I don't. It's a cool adventure, but I don't see if there are sort of Catholic or Christian themes in it. I have a. You know, you can see them, but you only can see them in terms of morality.

A (40:08)

There is that. And he stops to point out some moral failings. So like at the meeting of smog he's described. And it literally stops, which is in an almost fourth wall breaking away. And Tolkien goes, and Smaug is angry and jealous in the way that a rich man who has everything in the world is angry when he realizes one of the things he forgot that he even owned is missing. And he gets irrationally angry.

B (40:37)

Happens to me all the time. I saw your brother wearing a watch of mine that I forgot I owned, that apparently he stole.

A (40:45)

And so he stops the story to sort of give a very plain moral explanation of excess riches. Right. And the problems that come along with it. So you get that occasionally where Tolkien stops the story to teach the moral lesson.

B (41:07)

I get that. But there's no. It's harder to see like actual sort of like creedal Christian themes in it beyond like sin and fail.

A (41:17)

Yo. I completely agree. I don't see creedal Christianity here. I wouldn't say I don't see things.

B (41:26)

Well, not even thematically. Like, you don't even. I'm not even talking about, like, obviously I don't even see them thematically. Like, you don't. You don't see like a lot of sacrifice for others or that type of thing. I. I don't know. What do you think, Adam? I might. I'm just. I'm dense with this stuff.

C (41:46)

Yeah, I completely agree with you that it's. I mean, the Christian theology, if you will, or theological background to the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings is very clandestine. You really have to squeeze it. Caleb, you and I talked about how there's a reason why there's so many different interpretations of Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings. Because it is not. So he's not overtly doing a kind of apologetic for the tender hearted or as Lewis might describe it. I think if there is one Christian doctrine or major component of the Christian worldview that looms large in Hobbit and Lord of the Rings is the doctrine of the Fall.

B (42:32)

Yeah, that's why sin in failing.

C (42:35)

Yeah, absolutely everything. But another thing That I don't know. One of the problems in reading this again and knowing a bit more about Tolkien is I'm trying to figure out, like, should I read this to try to understand Tolkien's mind or should I just read this?

A (42:52)

I mean, to enjoy it.

C (42:54)

To enjoy it. Should I read it as if it's got some sort of didactic purpose? I don't know. But one thing that something I read somewhere along the line made this distinction or pointed this out that early on in that first chapter, you know, Bilbo sitting there on a stoop, I guess, reading the mail. And there's some sort of, like, train whistle, too. I can't remember where it was. You know, there's like these kind of modernish references.

B (43:21)

Yeah. Like gun algorithm.

A (43:23)

Yeah.

B (43:24)

Gunpowder is referenced in there. And I'm like, yeah. And he says it smelled like gunpowder. I'm like, how the heck would they have known what gunpowder smelled like? Yeah.

C (43:31)

So you got like. It's almost like the. The hobbits or Bilbo. They're kind of allegorical to modern people. And then all of a sudden, these people who are very. Who hearken back to this kind of golden age appear. And then Bilbo is pulled into that epic quest to recover something from ancient days. And this is just a description, I guess. I don't really care so much if I offend Catholic listeners, but traditional Catholics do have this nostalgia for the past and tradition and especially they have a kind of a golden. This view that in the past, in the Middle Ages, there was this Catholic golden age. And it's almost like this thing, this story is kind of an allegory for that in a. In an odd sort of way. I don't know. I mean, I don't have.

B (44:34)

That's interesting. I kind of. I kind of see that. I've never even thought about that.

C (44:40)

I am not a. Like, didn't we do this? Was it this summer? I am not a literary theorist or whatever the right term.

B (44:48)

Doing better than me so far.

C (44:49)

It's really hard to. Just to put this in, like, the correct terms, I guess. But there is something very very. It just feels very traditional Catholic. Not the particulars, just the whole. The feeling of it, if you will.

A (45:04)

Well, I think there's, like. If I was going to pick a theology that is here, there is something about driving oneself forward towards the like itself, making better and good. And it starts off with. And the thing that I think makes it Roman Catholic.

B (45:25)

Bilbo goes on the adventure.

A (45:26)

Yeah. And the thing that makes it Catholic to me and not. And why Protestants are probably not going to pick up on this theological theme or at least Lutherans. Is that. Is that the adventure starts off assisted. It starts off with Gandalf pushing you into the adventure.

B (45:43)

It.

A (45:44)

It starts off with him intervening more, saving your skins more like when it comes to trolls getting you to the elves the eagles saving you from goblins. And as the story progresses, Gandalf intervenes less and less. And in fact, there's a moment and Bilbo takes over and especially once we get to Smaug in the last couple of chapters here and they get to the mountain, Bilbo, it even stops and says, like, Bilbo would never have done this. But now he's become the type of person who would, you know, encourage the Dwarves forward and is going to enter the mountain is going to talk to Smaug like he's. He's now the type of hobbit that will face the dragon, right?

C (46:30)

The alpha male, right.

A (46:32)

He. He develops from a character who hides within a hole who. To the person who will drive along the story. And what I see is sort of, you know, this Christian life, maybe sanctification sort of theology where at first you need a lot of help. You need God's help. You need a. You need a priest or a prophet or somebody to intervene and push you along your way. But eventually your will, your desires will have been cultivated along the journey so such that out of yourself you will produce the. The right motivation and the right actions to continue the story along.

C (47:12)

Yes, and somewhere in my. I'm using air quotes here for listeners into my research. It's not really research, just me poking around. I read that Tolkien often said that he is Bilbo Baggins. And it's. It's like this is. Again, this is just a description and there really is something admirable about it. I think it's theologically wonky. But this Bilbo is not really a man of virtue at first, when we first meet him he's just content living his life as it is. Then these Dwarves sing the story about their homeland and so on. He gets caught up in their story going back and in the process of going back to this bigger reality or at least a bigger, in a historical sense, reality Bilbo matures, he progresses in virtue and becomes, you know, he's evolving into a better, more virtuous man. And I think that's not just a Catholic thing. That's a very normal thing for people who have sort of that opinion of the law. That if we just do. Do what is right and work harder, you'll. You'll be fine. But I think that's. That's the thing that's, I think, behind the theological narrative behind this whole story. Now, whether Tolkien's doing that consciously or not, that's. That's a. I mean, I wouldn't have any idea.

A (48:43)

Yeah, I mean, I have no idea. I think.

B (48:47)

I do think it's interesting, though, that you're kind of. One of the, I think, criticisms that I'll even just say somebody that's sort of steeped in a Reformational theology might levy against Roman Catholic theology in general is that it kind of fits a little bit too neatly into the general view of the rest of the world and all other religions. In other words, when you say that, that's not necessarily a Catholic theology, that's just sort of a normal, you know, sort of world view of things. Yeah, that's true. But what makes Christianity, or at least I think what the text tells us, makes sort of Christ uniquely God, is that he breaks that mold and that then salvation doesn't come through your own personal betterment or your own mastery of the law anymore. It comes solely through him, which is just a theme that. It might have been way too clear for Tolkien and Lewis's Chronicles of Narnia, but it's just a theme in the Chronicles of Narnia that just is there. Aslan is the savior of Narnia and needs to be known by his name in our world, which is Christ. And there's just something really beautiful to that. Not saying this completely lacks, but it's just if it's there, it's hidden here in a way that I think you have to probably read these stories more than twice to see.

A (50:20)

I think every children's. You know, as I was getting to the end of the book and sort of watching this progression of I think specifically not just Bilbo's actions, but desires being different because of the adventure along the way. I was thinking to myself, you know, this is great, but this is the moral story of every children's Disney and DreamWorks movie that I watch with my children.

B (50:49)

Every single one, specifically within, like, sort of, you might call it medieval theology. This is the development of the habitus, right? So you don't even know is happening to you sometimes. But you just sort of. You go through the practices of the liturgy and the Christian life and the sacraments, and eventually that habit or that habitus or that sort of intentional sort of making of your will to fit More with God's desire for your life that just eventually happens and you become this Catholic person or this medieval sort of Christian person. And you can definitely. I think you can see some of that there.

A (51:37)

Yeah.

B (51:38)

And that is definitely focused on a changing of your will. Your will goes from one that is centered on you to one that is centered in their case on sort of the church and the sacraments.

A (51:49)

Now, I want to be clear, I think there's certainly a tension here because, you know, the complaint with this is sort of what Adam was pointing out, that like this is a normal sort of view of the law. And so the tension is, is that this is really good advice for your day to day life. Like pursuing things, having, having habits, you know, changing. Something about you changing or your desires changing. So that something that was hard to do in the past is something that you. That you'll actively pursue.

B (52:22)

This is advice that even at the beginning, the going on the adventure is advice that not only would you give, but that I do give. I mean, just last week when your brother was headed up to Nevada, we said, hey man, you should take the extra step and stop over at Mammoth for a couple hours on your way down. It's gonna be harder, but it's, you know, you should say yes to these type of adventures when they present themselves to you. And, you know, he did and it was great and we were all happy for him. And that's sort of. But that, that's, that's temporal.

A (52:52)

The dis. The distinction I would make is it is not the advice or the means of your Christian life or other way people say your Christian walk.

B (53:02)

In fact, it's the Josh going up to Mammoth didn't make him more pleasing to God.

A (53:06)

Yeah. Right. And so this is sort of like the.

B (53:09)

Made him more pleasing to his earthly father.

A (53:11)

You know, this is how the old Adam can sort of live and thrive in this world. But it's not how you reach God. And that's sort of the distinction. Right, Is it?

B (53:27)

Yeah.

A (53:27)

God can't be got by, can't be had by going on the adventures.

B (53:32)

Right.

A (53:34)

Now, I'm not saying Tolkie. Well, he's Catholic, so we can assume. But I'm not saying that's what this works. It doesn't. The Hobbit obviously doesn't say, and now go pursue God like Bilbo pursued the treasure under the Lonely Mountain. Right. It's not a parable in that sense.

B (53:49)

Which is what Tolkien must have thought Lewis was doing in the lion, the Witch and the Horde.

A (53:53)

Right. And Tolkien Yeah, like, now go seek Aslan.

B (53:57)

Like Peter saw Aslan in my tale.

A (53:59)

So I don't want to, like, say that that's what he's saying, but I just want to say that the sort of. The moral lesson of the Hobbit ought not be transported to your theological approach to how to pursue God in a different way than how sort of the Chronicles of Narnia possesses a lesson that is not just moral and sort of finds a way to describe how God pursues you and atones for you. So it's just. It's a different beast. It definitely, as I was reading it, and maybe listeners will be able to tell, will see makes it challenging for a show like the Thinking fellows to approach, which helps answer the question, why haven't. I mean, we've been asked a bunch of times, why haven't you guys done the Hobb, the Lord of the Rings? This is part of it. It's harder for us to stay in our lane commenting on this.

B (54:51)

We should have Sam on the show. He'd be a great help to us.

C (54:54)

On this, I think. I know we're way past time, but that's fine. If you compare, like, the disposition of Lewis and the disposition of Tolkien. Not that we really know, but just from the sense you can get from reading their stuff and what others say about them. It's like Tolkien really mourns the loss of Christendom and Louis probably would have preferred to live in Christendom, but there's no going back for Lewis. He figures out how to be comfortable in the world he's living in.

B (55:30)

Whereas Tolkien spent a lot of time, a good portion of his life, sort of celebrating the loss of Christendom, though. Whereas Tolkien never did.

C (55:40)

No, that's a. Now that. That's a.

B (55:43)

So as a. I mean, one of the things you sometimes get with converts to the faith is they become more ardent than people who have lived in it. Right. Their whole lives.

C (55:53)

Yeah.

B (55:53)

But interesting, I would say that told that Lewis became very ardent in the faith, but he didn't necessarily ever become very ardent culturally Christian.

A (56:04)

No, that's true. We commented on that last time as well.

C (56:06)

Yeah, yeah.

B (56:07)

Whereas Lewis or Tolkien, you know, he was always not just Roman Catholic, but always very ardently culturally Catholic as well.

C (56:15)

Yeah, yeah. And it's almost like Lewis is trying to be a guide for how to navigate the world that he was living in as a Christian, whereas Tolkien's maybe. I don't know if he was grumpy or not. He was an introvert.

A (56:32)

Right.

C (56:32)

But he was Probably a little grumpy about the world he lived in. Well, and he thought that.

B (56:38)

Don't you think Lewis's experience gives all of his writings a very apologetic character, or at least all of his sort of writings that aren't in his sort of professional field. All of his Christian's writings have a very apologetic. Even his autobiography is the story of how he came to the faith. So that if you're kicking it around, you might look at his story and come to the faith. Right. Tolkien's Christianity is more assumed. And you can sometimes you have conversations. I have these conversations all the time because I live kind of in two Lutheran worlds. I live in the Lutheran world of Rod Rosenblatt and John Warwick Montgomery, which is always centered on Christian apologetics to the non believer and then live in the world of sort of. I might call it sort of the gymnastic and Steve Paulson sort of thing too, where that's rarely the thing that's foremost on the mind. Because they sort of grew up in a world where they were defending Lutheranism. To Lutherans, they very much. Their apologetic is what did Luther actually teach regarding the will and salvation. And so their Christianity, in my opinion, Paulsons and Nescians is always assumed Right. And it's rarely. This may not be a good characteristic, but it's rarely sort of focused out on the world of those who don't yet believe. It seems like it's always sort of catechetical in helping those within the world of believers, which is very much. It seems like if this is a Christian Catholic work at all, this is what that is. This and the Lord of the Rings. Whereas Lewis is always focused out on the people that were like him, lost in a world of materialism. And how can I help them? How can I help them overcome that? It's probably so I don't think he's. Lewis is very much, I think intentionally not mourning the loss of Christendom or trying to convince people to become Christian for the sake of a new Christendom.

C (58:55)

Yeah, Yep. Yeah, you're right. And you know, commentators say that if there's one. If you're going to really understand CS Lewis, you have to understand that he believes every human being is. Has an eternal soul and he's deeply concerned about that, I think. Go ahead.

A (59:14)

Well, to me this has to. Has partly to do with like this. The story is the storyteller in a sense. Like what. What is the. That your experience really does determine what kind of good work and not in the theological sense, but you can produce right Like Tolkien is not a convert. His production of a sort of apologetic would be probably one that is just logical and makes sense to him and he thinks people should do. And when you use like the. The Ron and Montgomery stuff too, both of them have not Lewis's story, but stories similar of doubt or leaving the faith or coming to the faith from. Or scientism and materialism reigning.

B (60:06)

Montgomery's story is actually very sort of life story is Lewisian in a sense. I mean, it's very, very similar.

A (60:13)

And. And so. And then, you know, you can.

B (60:15)

Little less poetic.

A (60:18)

You can go to Nesskin and Paulson and see that they're raised Lutherans who see the death of sort of Lutheranism in Lutheran churches and in the Midwest. Yeah.

B (60:29)

See the death of cultural Lutheranism in the Midwest. I mean, this is Jim sort of handing over the goods lecture is very much a story of. Or what I, you know, what he called secondary confirmation is very much sort of the loss of sort of not just the Lutheran worldview, but the Lutheran world in sort of the rural and even metropolis sort of Midwest in the St. Paul ish area. And you get. I mean, Nestigen's best line is that I. Well, he's got a lot of good lines. I memorized a catechism to the rhythm my grandfather's John Deere tractor. You know, it's like, yeah, that. Okay, there's no longer kids sitting on their grandpa's John Deere tractor as it's sort of like hit and miss going through the fields and grandpa's reciting the catechism to them. That's just not happening. And he mourns that. And he should mourn that. That's a wonderful thing. Right. And you kind of, if. If that's what sort of Tolkien's doing here.

C (61:31)

You.

B (61:32)

It's very understandable to try to sort of. Hey. And I really like Adam. You said it a while ago. I really like that. It actually might help me as we read further the picture of sort of Bilbo himself and the hobbits as sort of like the modern, modern Tolkien in the 1920s. Modern Englishman. Right.

C (61:56)

Yeah.

A (61:58)

It'S definitely interesting. And so, yeah, I would. I think with that perspective, I would say, you know, we're not. I'm not looking for Tolkien to be Louis. He had a. He had a different life. It just means that these stories, these stories are harder to theologically analyze.

C (62:14)

Yeah, absolutely.

A (62:15)

It's fine. Which is.

B (62:16)

Stretches our brains to the Fellowship of the Ring.

C (62:20)

Yeah.

B (62:20)

A much shorter tale. Oh, wait a minute.

A (62:23)

I was going to say this for listeners who have made it all the way into our longer episode here. Longer books require longer episodes. We are probably gonna have to space. This is 20 hours of reading. I don't think any of US can sacrifice 20 hours in one week to finishing the Fellowship of the Ring.

B (62:45)

Depends on how much. How much? You know. Split board snowboarding? Yeah, 20.

A (62:51)

Probably not 20 hours of it. So we will. Probably. What we're gonna do is we'll have a Christmas episode next week. It'll be Christmas week. The episode will be out, you know, five days before Christmas, but we'll have a Christmas episode and then we'll go to the Fellowship of the Ring.

B (63:08)

So then we'll have a New Year's episode to give us a break.

A (63:11)

Then we're gonna have a New Year's episode, and then I don't know how.

B (63:13)

We'Re gonna have an Epiphany episode. So we'll go to the.

A (63:15)

We'll see what happens. But I'm gonna give us at least two weeks to fellowship the ring since 20 hours is a lot of reading, and.

B (63:26)

I'm gonna be a good snowboarder by the end of this season.

A (63:28)

Oh, my gosh, that's funny. He's listening to the audible while snowboarding.

B (63:33)

And I'm skinning up the hill and.

A (63:34)

Skinning up the hill. So what's skinning up the hill mean?

B (63:37)

It means, like, cross country skiing from the bottom.

C (63:40)

That's why you're all jacked and ripped and handsome.

B (63:45)

It's that I'm shredding my core every night. Yeah.

A (63:48)

So. Well, thank you, listeners for joining us for this. It's been long requested for us to read the fictional works of Tolkien, so hopefully you enjoyed our thoughts on the Hobbit and maybe even our struggle to figure out how to approach this. We will be back next week with a Christmas episode, and then we will do the Fellowship of the Ring. All right, thank you for listening. We will catch you next time. By.

B (64:21)

Sam.