Thinking Fellows Podcast: "The Hobbit"

Date: December 17, 2022
Hosts: Caleb Keith, Dr. Scott Keith, Adam Francisco

Overview

In this episode, the Thinking Fellows—Caleb Keith, Dr. Scott Keith, and Adam Francisco—dive deep into J.R.R. Tolkien's The Hobbit, discussing not only its storyline and literary context, but its cultural legacy and potential Christian and theological undercurrents. The episode is framed as an honest exploration of Tolkien's work from a group of theologians and historians, acknowledging up front the relative difficulty of drawing overt theological parallels from The Hobbit compared to, say, the works of C.S. Lewis. The conversation is thoughtful, at times humorous, and rich in literary and philosophical reflection.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Context & Setting the Mood

• The hosts set a vivid, almost Narnian winter scene reflecting on their own neighborhoods as a precursor to entering Tolkien’s world.
• Personal stories about reading habits and neighborhood quirks add warmth and relatability.

2. The Hobbit in Literary & Cultural Context

• Age & Influence:
  • The Hobbit was written between 1929–1936 and published in 1937.
  • Despite being nearly 100 years old, it remains fresh due to regular cultural renewal through adaptations and homage.
  • "The content feels renewed all of the time…" – Caleb (11:24)
• Source Material:
  • Tolkien’s heavy borrowing from Anglo-Saxon and Norse mythology for names (e.g., all 13 dwarves and Gandalf appear in the Elder Edda) and tropes.
  • The enduring image of dwarves and elves in modern fantasy largely owes to Tolkien, not invention but repurposing (21:26–22:52).

3. Style and Storytelling Techniques

• Tolkien vs. Lewis:

  • Tolkien’s detail often serves world-building more than narrative momentum.
  • “The detail is used to advance the story [in Lewis], whereas Tolkien is using it to sort of fill the room, fill the space.” – Caleb (13:22)
  • Adam notes the excess detail can make reading The Hobbit "a bit of a chore" on reread (12:33).

• Children’s Literature Debate:

  • Scott relates that he’d take Lewis’s side in their famous debates on how to write for children (12:58–13:22).

4. Plot Summary with Theological Observations

• Plot Overview:

  • Classic plot points recounted with humorous asides—Bilbo’s recruiting by Gandalf (16:48), the trolls (25:31), the acquisition of the ring (30:29), the riddle contest with Gollum (31:10–32:56), Mirkwood, spiders, Lake Town, and finally Smaug.
  • Highlights Tolkien’s world’s “generational memory”—swords, spiders, races, and inherited legacies are all remembered and carry power (38:29).

• Notable Scene: The Riddle Game

  • "Bilbo wins but full-on cheating. It's not a riddle." – Scott (31:18)
  • Tolkien revised the Gollum encounter post-Lord of the Rings to add narrative gravitas (32:14).

5. Theological & Moral Analysis

• Challenge of Reading Theologically

  • The hosts struggle to extract explicit Christian themes, noting Tolkien’s approach is "very clandestine" (41:46):
    • "If you can see [Christian themes], you only can see them in terms of morality." – Scott (39:24)
    • Adam posits the doctrine of the Fall as the only major theme that “looms large” in Tolkien’s legendarium (42:32).
    • Comparison with Lewis, whose works are overtly apologetic; Tolkien’s faith is much more “assumed” (58:38).

• The Catholic/Traditionalist Underpinning

  • Adam suggests The Hobbit is colored by a traditional Catholic longing for a golden age (43:31–44:49).
  • Caleb and Adam discuss Bilbo’s progression—a portrait of moral (if not overtly spiritual) growth; Bilbo develops virtue through adventure (46:30–48:43).
  • This fits a Catholic (and broader human) view that virtue is cultivated through habit and pursuing ‘adventures’—not necessarily grace-based sanctification (50:49–51:38).

• Moral Progress and the Law

  • The “lesson” of The Hobbit is akin to every children’s movie—adventure changes us, desires mature (50:20). Not wrong as life advice, but:
    • "It is not the advice or the means for your Christian walk." – Caleb (53:02)
    • "God can't be got by going on the adventure." – Caleb (53:32)

• Tolkien vs. Lewis on Apologetics

  • Tolkien’s stories function more as eternal stories, catechesis for the already Christian, not outreach; Lewis writes with the convert and outsider in mind (58:38–60:06).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Tolkien’s Detail:
  • "He pumps an insane amount of detail in spaces where you wouldn't necessarily expect it...it’s not always details that are moving the story forward." – Caleb (13:22)
• On Christian Themes:
  • "The Christian theology, if you will, or theological background to The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings is very clandestine. You really have to squeeze it." – Adam (41:46)
• On Bilbo’s Growth:
  • "Bilbo develops from a character who hides within a hole...to the person who will drive along the story." – Caleb (46:30)
• On Difference from Lewis:
  • "Not saying this [The Hobbit] completely lacks [Christian themes], but if it’s there, it’s hidden in a way that...you have to probably read these stories more than twice to see." – Scott (49:47)
• On Tradition and Worldview:
  • "There is something very, very...it just feels very traditional Catholic. Not the particulars, just the whole...the feeling of it, if you will." – Adam (44:49)
• On Adventure as Moral Development:
  • "This is advice that even at the beginning, the going on the adventure is advice...that I do give [my children]." – Scott (52:22)
  • "It's how the old Adam can sort of live and thrive in this world. But it's not how you reach God." – Caleb (53:09)

Important Timestamps

• Intro/Neighborhood Atmosphere: 00:17–07:08
• Walking Motif in Tolkien: 07:27–08:42
• On Reading & Nostalgia: 12:01–12:58
• Lewis vs. Tolkien on Detail: 13:22–15:52
• Concise Plot Recap Begins: 15:54
• Gollum and the Ring (Riddle Game): 29:28–32:56
• Theological Themes (Morality & Catholic Influence): 39:24–53:32
• Tolkien vs. Lewis on Apologetics/Culture: 54:54–60:29
• Reflections & Next Steps: 62:14–63:40

Conclusion

The episode thoughtfully explores The Hobbit as a foundational work of modern fantasy, unpacking Tolkien’s influences and legacy while engaging in a candid, self-aware struggle to parse its deeper theological signals. The hosts conclude that, while The Hobbit offers a compelling moral narrative on growth and virtue, its explicitly Christian elements are subtle, often culturally Catholic, and certainly less direct than in Lewis’s works. Far from diminishing its value, this calls for a different kind of literary appreciation—one that values tradition, adventure, and the formative power of story over overt doctrinal teaching.

Next Episodes

The hosts preview a Christmas episode to follow, and then an extended read-through of The Fellowship of the Ring, noting the challenge and delight in tackling Tolkien’s larger mythos.