Thinking Fellows Podcast – Episode Summary
Episode Title: When Christians Contradict Themselves
Podcast: Thinking Fellows
Hosts: Scott Keith, Caleb Keith, Adam Francisco, Bruce Hilman
Date: December 1, 2025
Duration: ~45 min
Overview
This episode delves into recent survey data from Ligonier Ministries and Lifeway Publishing on the state of Christian beliefs in America. The Fellows discuss widespread doctrinal confusion, contradictions in lay beliefs, the possible roots of these inconsistencies, and the broader cultural forces at play—such as the roles of catechesis, media influence, individualism, and what the hosts call the “feminization” of church and society. The episode particularly considers the implications for teaching, parenting, and the survival of orthodox Christianity.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Survey Overview and Initial Reactions
- The Ligonier survey gauges U.S. Christian beliefs on core doctrines and moral teachings, presenting a “snapshot of Christianity in America and what people believe, teach, confess about particular doctrines.” [00:20]
- The findings are surprising in that many self-identified Christians hold views considered “heretical” or heterodox by historic standards.
- Notable: Even basic beliefs, such as original sin and the deity of Christ, are widely misunderstood or flatly denied by large portions of respondents.
“Some of the things that I would consider very basic, bedrock things... are just sort of so in the DNA and assumed that it's not even like a debate was the cause for the answer. It's just people believe wrong things.” – Bruce [03:25]
2. Media and Cultural Influence on Theology
- Much contemporary theology is not actively taught but absorbed from culture, media (sitcoms, movies, etc.), or personal feelings, rather than serious teaching.
“Media influence that's not directly tied to theology... Like how many people get their theology from a sitcom or the last drama they watched that had a chaplain in it?” – Bruce [04:51]
3. Doctrinal Contradictions and Cognitive Dissonance
- Respondents affirmed contradictory ideas:
- 64% agreed “everyone is born innocent in the eyes of God,” denying original sin [05:55]
- 98% affirmed the Trinity, but 35% deny Jesus is God [21:53, 22:06]
- 53% said the Holy Spirit is a force, not a personal being, but 98% affirmed the Trinity [20:21]
- 94% agreed “God loves all people the same way,” which the hosts argue is neither biblically nor traditionally accurate, and reflects emotional and cultural sensibilities rather than scriptural teaching [32:36–36:37]
“This is just people not knowing how to answer. What about on the moral questions?” – Scott [31:48]
4. Catechesis: Failures and Limitations
- Lack of systemic, sustained catechesis is highlighted, especially in evangelicalism, but even where catechesis is present (e.g. Catholicism), belief and understanding remain patchy.
- Catechesis alone isn’t a cure-all—people must own and integrate the story and message into their lives.
“If you did this survey to Catholics, you’d probably get even crazier answers. And they have very high catechesis. So it’s not... only the fault of lack of catechesis.” – Bruce [29:49]
- Importance of church habits, confession, and integrating faith practices from childhood are emphasized [15:01].
- The obligation to belong to a local congregation is waning; many see no importance in church membership [46:02].
5. Storytelling and Narrative in Faith Formation
- Stanley Hauerwas is cited: knowing doctrine is not enough unless it’s woven into the narrative of life—people need to see themselves in the biblical story for belief to stick [51:59].
6. The “Feminization” of the Church and Culture
- The hosts claim church and Western culture have tilted toward “feminization,” here meaning greater emphasis on emotion, inclusivity, and avoidance of “confrontational” doctrine.
- Female respondents to the survey were noted as more likely to give less orthodox answers on certain moral and doctrinal issues.
- Caution is expressed not to blame or disparage women, but rather note shifts in emphases and authority structures.
“There’s an air that we breathe that is just so feminized right now. We need to get some of that back.” – Scott [67:06]
“But if we dip into the fact that there’s no differences between men and women, that’s a pretty big door that you’re opening for horrible stuff to happen.” – Scott [64:20]
7. Modern Individualism and Authority
- Individual judgment now trumps doctrinal teaching; many participants answer survey questions based not on what their church teaches, but on personal feeling or logic [61:47].
8. Practical Questions and Pastoral Anxiety
- The hosts wrestle with the implications: Should expectations be lowered for lay understanding? Is real catechesis or polemic teaching possible anymore? How does one balance outreach with the need for doctrinal integrity? [24:46–25:45]
“How do you then not make them depressed about the vocations that they have to say, well, is teaching my children even going to work if nobody thinks about contradictory statements?... Is teaching my children even going to work if nobody thinks about contradictory statements?” – Caleb [25:21]
9. Membership and Church Discipline
- Considered: Should “heretical” beliefs preclude membership? Is a more “unfriendly” or exclusive Christianity needed to protect orthodoxy? [46:56, 53:58]
- Bruce distinguishes between being heretical and being a heretic: uncorrected error is not the same as willful, persistent false belief [52:17–53:28].
10. Mutuality, Gender Roles, and Church Life
- The necessity of mutual care, distinct roles, and respect for both genders is stressed as a scriptural corrective to extremes in either direction [57:39–66:37].
- Despite feminization, abdication of male leadership roles contributes to current issues [61:47].
- Many female church members want men to step up, not be “lazy and irresponsible” [67:00].
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
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On the disconnect between creed and lived faith:
“I think the answer to that is people aren’t being taught what they believe... They’re just believing things based on their own life experience, their own history, their own kind of conjecture.” – Bruce [04:32]
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Original sin at home:
“Emerson, my oldest son, corrects her and goes, ‘No, he’s a sinner in her belly.’” – Caleb [16:33]
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Doctrinal drift and apologetics of desperation:
“It starts with this principle of God loves everybody the same way, and then you apply that to the other questions that this survey then has...” – Scott [37:26]
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On church membership and local congregation:
“Christians have an obligation to join a local congregation, go to a building. It was overwhelmingly no.” – Caleb [46:02]
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On gender and church leadership:
“If people want to know ... how I think the differences play out, read Being Dad... there are chapters... specifically designed and written to say these are the great things about the way women parent... God created these things to work together. But when it comes to, you know, the faith life men are supposed to lead.” – Scott [64:20]
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Reaching listeners:
“I would love to hear from female listeners who think that we’ve been unfair. Obviously, it’s an hour-long podcast. We can’t cover every nuance... if I’m not seeing something that you’re like, ‘Hey, this is...’ I mean, please, I would love to see that.” – Bruce [64:04]
Timestamps of Major Segments
- [00:20] – Introduction to the survey and episode topic
- [03:25] – Basic doctrinal errors and their shock value
- [05:55] – “Born innocent in the eyes of God” and original sin discussion
- [11:33] – Precision in theology: Lutheran vs. Calvinist reasoning
- [15:01] – Church habits and early catechesis
- [20:21] – Contradictory beliefs about the Trinity and the Holy Spirit
- [22:06] – “35% deny Jesus is God”
- [23:01] – “Bible as highest authority” vs. practical disbelief
- [32:36–36:37] – “God loves all people the same way” and its implications
- [37:26] – Emotional apologetics and seeker-sensitivity
- [39:28] – Belief in hell, but disbelief that anyone is going there
- [46:02] – Obligation to belong to a local congregation
- [51:59] – Stanley Hauerwas and narrative theology
- [61:47] – The problem of individualism in belief and church authority
- [64:04] – Appeal to female listeners for feedback
- [67:27] – Data on men in church and gender effects
- [68:13] – Wrap-up, Ligonier survey praise
Conclusion: Tone & Takeaways
The hosts are candid, sometimes bemused and sometimes deeply concerned about the state of lay Christian belief. They oscillate between wry humor, theological precision, and practical anxiety over what the data mean for future generations, church membership, gender roles, and catechesis. Throughout, a passion for doctrinal truth and the need for better catechesis, storytelling, and church discipline is evident. The discussion ends with a call for feedback, especially from female listeners, and a recognition of the complexity and urgency of the challenges facing Christianity in the West.