Ira Glass (4:43)

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Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (5:14)

Right now we are living through some of the most tumultuous political times our country has ever known. I'm David Remnick, and each week on

Voice Actor / Performer (Hamster voices) (5:22)

the New Yorker Radio Hour, I'll try

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (5:23)

to make sense of what's happening along politicians and thinkers like Cory Booker, Nancy Pelosi, Liz Cheney, Tim Waltz, Ketanji Brown

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Jackson, Newt Gingrich, Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

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Charlemagne, tha God, and so many more. That's all on the New Yorker Radio Hour. Wherever you listen to podcasts at Radiolab,

Voice Actor / Performer (Hamster voices) (5:44)

we love nothing more than nerding out

Ira Glass (5:47)

about science, neuroscience, chemistry.

Betty (neighbor harassed by neighbor) (5:50)

But but we do also like to

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (5:52)

get into other kinds of stories. Stories about policing or politics, country music,

Julia (Betty's daughter) (5:57)

hock, sex of bugs.

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Regardless of whether we're looking at science or not science, we bring a rigorous

Ira Glass (6:04)

curiosity to get you the answers and

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (6:07)

hopefully make you see the world anew.

Voice Actor / Performer (Hamster voices) (6:08)

Radiolab Adventures on the Edge of what We Think We Know Wherever you get

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (6:12)

your podcasts to American life, today's show is a rerun. Act 1 objects inside view Mirror are truer than they appear. Well, the woman at the center of this next story has the power to change two people's lives and changed them in a big way. And what's interesting is at the height of her power, she doesn't even know she has it. Alex Kotlowitz tells the story.

Alex Kotlowitz (Storyteller) (6:36)

On this one August day in 1979, Carla Dimkoff learned something which shaped the rest of her life and the life of a complete stranger. And the thing about it is, it took 26 years for her to realize that. At the time Carla was 19 years old, she was living in a trailer home in the small town of White Cloud, Michigan, when her father, James Keller, who lived in Tennessee, showed up unannounced driving a motorhome. Her father was a bit of a vagabond, someone who lived on the edge. So this surprise visit wasn't all that unusual.

Betty (neighbor harassed by neighbor) (7:11)

He did this all the time. He would basically abandon my mom, and he would just take off for days at a time, and he would end up wherever he wanted in several different states, and this time he ended back up in Michigan.

Alex Kotlowitz (Storyteller) (7:27)

Carla was kind of at loose ends herself. She'd been raising a daughter alone, and the day her father arrived, Carla had gotten married to a man she'd met just a week before. Her father gave them $20 as a wedding gift and wished them well. Then they went their separate ways for the evening. Carla and her new husband got home around 2am but her father was still out. He stayed out most of the night.

Betty (neighbor harassed by neighbor) (7:52)

When I got up the next morning, it was fairly early, I want to say between 7 and 9:10am he was in the driveway, walked outside and I said, you know, hi, where you been? And at some point he told me he had been at the Lamplight Bar for a little while. And I was kind of puzzled because the bars close at 2:15 or 2:30. And I wondered where he had been the rest of the evening. And I really never got an answer to that.

Alex Kotlowitz (Storyteller) (8:25)

Even stranger was what he was doing in the driveway. He was repairing the side view mirror on his motorhome.

Betty (neighbor harassed by neighbor) (8:31)

It had actually been broken off and he was putting a whole new mirror on it. And he was just doing it in such a hurry and throwing parts into his vehicle, which I thought was strange. Why throw all the junk when you're 10ft from a dumpster into the motorhome? And he was in just such a hurry about just struck me odd for a minute. And the next thing I know he said, well, I'm out of here. And he left. And I didn't speak to him probably for several months to a year.

Alex Kotlowitz (Storyteller) (9:16)

It wasn't just that Carla's father was a drifter, that makes him seem benign. He was, by Carla's recollection, a violent man. Carla remembers once she was slurping while eating spaghetti and he hurled the table on its side. But it was much worse than that. When Carla turned 11, her mother told her that her father had molested a young girl. Carla tried to protect others in the family and that brought her into direct conflict with her dad. Like one of the times he went after her mother.

Betty (neighbor harassed by neighbor) (9:47)

I stepped into the middle of it and he punched me in the jaw. And I ended up in the emergency room later that evening.

Alex Kotlowitz (Storyteller) (9:55)

How old were you?

Betty (neighbor harassed by neighbor) (9:57)

Around 16. At that point I became afraid physically of my father, emotionally of him, and I was afraid to be alone with him after that.

Alex Kotlowitz (Storyteller) (10:13)

This is all important to know in order to understand what happened next. Shortly after Carla's dad drove out of town, Carla picked up the Times indicator, the local newspaper, and read that on the very same night her dad didn't come home. Just hours before she found him in the driveway fixing his busted side view mirror. A 19 year old woman had been killed on a nearby road, a deep gash in her head. In the article, the sheriff said, and I quote, we assume she was hit by an unknown vehicle, maybe by a Mirror or some projection.

Betty (neighbor harassed by neighbor) (10:47)

I just said, oh, my God. I had an overwhelming feeling that my father had killed someone and I just needed to tell what I knew.

Alex Kotlowitz (Storyteller) (11:03)

At first she went to her minister who urged her to go to the police, which she did. The very next day, she had a friend drive her to the police station in town, where she learned that the detective in charge of the case wasn't in. So she left him a note.

Betty (neighbor harassed by neighbor) (11:21)

This is the letter I wrote to Detective Foster, and it says, Mr. Foster, I would like to speak with you concerning the death of Christy Ringler. I do not have a car. If you could possibly stop out to my house after 3pm today, it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you, Mrs. Taro. That evening, there were two detectives that actually came out. They were dressed in plain clothes. They knocked on the door. They came in. I told them the whole story about my dad had been here. He had been gone all night. Gave him just a little bit of a history of my dad, not a whole lot of history. And they were like, okay, well, we have this information. Thank you. I had the feeling when they came in the door that they thought they were wasting their time. I don't even think they sat down. They stood there just kind of towering over me. And I was clearly intimidated by the whole situation. Not really ever dealing with anything like this. And maybe I just made myself sound unsure.

Alex Kotlowitz (Storyteller) (12:41)

See, Carla laid out two possible scenarios for the detectives. One, that her father accidentally struck this girl while driving home from the Lamplight Bar. That seemed likely given his shadowed side view mirror and his eagerness to get out of town. The other? Well, she thought it was possible that her father had killed Christy Ringley on purpose. That knowing her dad, maybe he tried to flirt with Christy at the Lamplight. That maybe she'd repelled his advances and that maybe on the way home, he saw her on the road and rammed her with his side view mirror. Carla now believes, though, that this speculative scenario didn't sit too well with the detectives.

Betty (neighbor harassed by neighbor) (13:21)

They made me feel like a fool, like I had a grudge to grind when I was trying to get my father in trouble or something. And just this poor trailer park person.

Alex Kotlowitz (Storyteller) (13:36)

Were you conscious about living in a trailer? About being poor?

Betty (neighbor harassed by neighbor) (13:40)

Very, very. You know, I knew that wasn't the thing to do. I knew that's not where I wanted to be.

Alex Kotlowitz (Storyteller) (13:46)

So the detectives leave, and you know in your heart of hearts that your dad was somehow involved in this, in the death of this girl. What do you do with that knowledge?

Betty (neighbor harassed by neighbor) (14:04)

I bury it.

Alex Kotlowitz (Storyteller) (14:12)

When she looks back on it. This was the moment of truth. This was her opportunity to act. And she feels like she just gave up without any kind of fight. Carla ordinarily didn't back down easily, but she'd been dismissed often before. In seventh grade, she went to a guidance counselor about her dad's alleged abuse. And all the counselor did was go tell her parents. Then remember the time she ended up in the emergency room? Well, she told a doctor there that her father had punched her. Nothing came of that either. So when the detectives disregarded what she had to say, it felt familiar, like this was how it was always going to be. Her dad would elude any responsibility for what he'd done. She wasn't about to confront her father, who she feared would physically hurt her if she did. And as for the authorities, the thought

Betty (neighbor harassed by neighbor) (15:03)

never occurred to me to go back to the police. I didn't want to feel that feeling again of that intimidation of just being dismissed. Um, and that's really a selfish thought now that I think about it.

Alex Kotlowitz (Storyteller) (15:22)

The thing was, though, she couldn't keep it buried, at least emotionally. She thought about it all the time. That her father had in all likelihood accidentally or purposefully killed someone and that she hadn't done enough about it.

Betty (neighbor harassed by neighbor) (15:36)

You know, I had these horrible nightmares that this dead girl was walking down the street trying to chase after me. Her body's all dismembered. And I got the feeling in my dream, God, I sound like a nut, that she was chasing me. And I couldn't ever figure out, why are you chasing me? You know, there's been times where I could not think about it or I would be a wreck.

Alex Kotlowitz (Storyteller) (16:12)

Can you remember a particular moment?

Betty (neighbor harassed by neighbor) (16:14)

Yeah, I can remember one time driving in the car and just thinking about my life in general and all the things that had gone on. And it always ends up with Christy. And I often thought, oh, I could just stop thinking if I just hit that tree. Just tortured.

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (16:36)

David's interview with Larry Pat Souter taking place in the way of county Sheriff's department. Present at this interview is Larry Pat Souter, Deputy John Sutton, and Detective Charles Foster. Today's date is 8 hours, 27 minutes and 79 seconds. The time is 1500 hours.

Alex Kotlowitz (Storyteller) (16:53)

Carla wasn't the only person damaged by Christy Ringler's death. There was the Ringler family, of course, but there was also someone else. This 27 year old truck driver named Larry Suter. The tape you just heard is a tape police interview of Larry, a wiry built man with a charming smile who liked to party. And while he didn't live in White Cloud the night of Ringler's death. He had been visiting a friend there.

Larry Suter (17:18)

I don't think we drank at his house, if I remember correctly. But we went down to what they call a lamp like bar, which would have been south of town, and we'd sat there and drank, oh, maybe three hours in a bar.

Alex Kotlowitz (Storyteller) (17:31)

Larry met a woman at the Lamplight. It was Christy Ringler. They caught each other's eye. And when Larry and his friend went to party down the road, there was Christy as well.

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (17:42)

And when you got to the house, what happened?

Larry Suter (17:45)

When we got to the house, I went in, Jim went in, and like I said, around about 15 minutes one, Gail went outside and she was out sitting on the front steps. And I went out, sat on the front steps and we went out into the front of the yard. There was a tree out there. And we were kind of sitting up there by the tree and stuff and, you know, kind of kissing a little bit this and that. And then she got up and she walked off and started walking towards town, which would be back north towards White Cloud.

Alex Kotlowitz (Storyteller) (18:16)

Larry, who had a good deal to drink, says he offered to try to find her a ride, but she insisted she'd be all right. The last time Larry saw her, she was walking down the dark two lane road by herself. Two days after Ringler's death, the police asked Larry to come down to the station for this questioning. The interview lasted an hour and 15 minutes. Larry didn't bring a lawyer. He didn't feel he had anything to hide.

Larry Suter (18:45)

I've got nothing to hide.

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (18:50)

All right, this tape is going to be terminated at

Larry Suter (18:54)

1615 hours on page 2779. And then I don't think I heard anything from him for probably 12 and a half years.

Alex Kotlowitz (Storyteller) (19:13)

Larry returned to his life driving a truck and laying gas pipes. He got married to a woman named Melody, and they thought about starting a family together.

Larry Suter (19:23)

Then one day, one day I went to work, which is November 14th, and it's easier to remember because it was the day before deer season. And they came to work and they said that you're under arrest for open murder. I think that's what it was.

Alex Kotlowitz (Storyteller) (19:38)

Did you know what they were talking about?

Larry Suter (19:40)

I had no clue.

Alex Kotlowitz (Storyteller) (19:47)

This was in 1992, like Larry said, 12 and a half years after Christy Ringler's death. A new sheriff had reopened the case and it quickly got a lot of publicity. Larry, who's quiet and reserved, felt deeply embarrassed.

Larry Suter (20:02)

You know, my name was in the paper. My face is in the paper. It's like, oh, my God. I mean. I mean, this is humiliation.

Alex Kotlowitz (Storyteller) (20:10)

Had you ever been arrested before?

Larry Suter (20:12)

No, sir.

Alex Kotlowitz (Storyteller) (20:13)

But Larry assumed that justice would just find its way. This is Melody, his wife.

Betty (neighbor harassed by neighbor) (20:18)

They offered him a plea bargain for two to five years if he would admit he did it. And he refused to because he didn't.

Alex Kotlowitz (Storyteller) (20:26)

And did he come to you for advice?

Betty (neighbor harassed by neighbor) (20:28)

We were there together.

Alex Kotlowitz (Storyteller) (20:29)

And what did you tell him?

Betty (neighbor harassed by neighbor) (20:30)

And I told him, you can't plead guilty to something you didn't do.

Alex Kotlowitz (Storyteller) (20:35)

The prosecutors argued that Larry had bludgeoned Christy Ringler with a pint sized bottle of Canadian club whiskey. Their key piece of evidence was the testimony by pathologists that the bottom ridge of the bottle matched Ringler's injuries. At the trial, no mention was made of Carla's note and her subsequent interview with the detectives. The suitors believe the prosecution buried it. Larry was convicted and sentenced to 20 to 60 years.

Larry Suter (21:03)

My world just came right out from underneath me, you know, I mean, in total shock. It was a nightmare, straight up nightmare.

Alex Kotlowitz (Storyteller) (21:10)

There is, I suspect, nothing more confounding and debilitating than being sent to prison for something you didn't do. And the years behind bars had their effect on Larry as well as on his wife, Melody. Melody had a car accident after visiting Larry in prison and lost her factory job. She had to move back home with her parents, where she spent most of her time going over and over trial transcripts and police reports. She gave up the idea of ever having children.

Julia (Betty's daughter) (21:38)

And I had a hysterectomy while he was in prison.

Alex Kotlowitz (Storyteller) (21:44)

So you gave that up as well?

Betty (neighbor harassed by neighbor) (21:47)

Yeah.

Alex Kotlowitz (Storyteller) (21:52)

And in the years Larry was in prison, he struggled to sustain himself too. One of the ways he did that was to build these meticulously constructed western scenes out of toothpicks, log cabins, churches, saloons, covered bridges. He trimmed the toothpicks, sometimes 2,500 of them for one model with a nail clipper so that they fit together with glue like cut logs. The hours upon hours spent constructing them helped keep his mind off his case over the years.

Larry Suter (22:20)

Alex, I'll tell you what I mean, yes, I was very, very bitter in there. But, you know, I just try and say to myself, you know, just, you know, let it go and take one day at a night.

Alex Kotlowitz (Storyteller) (22:36)

Larry and Melody believed there had to be someone out there with some knowledge about what happened that night. And so Melody, along with Larry's sister, searched and searched and searched.

Julia (Betty's daughter) (22:47)

We made trips to look for people.

Betty (neighbor harassed by neighbor) (22:49)

We went to Newago county. When people told us we were crazy,

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (22:52)

we could get killed.

Betty (neighbor harassed by neighbor) (22:54)

And we interviewed people, we talked to people. You know, we did everything we could

Voice Actor / Performer (Hamster voices) (23:01)

to try to, you know, find out what really happened to this girl.

Alex Kotlowitz (Storyteller) (23:07)

Of course, the person they were looking for was Carla, but they didn't know she even existed. And Carla was completely unaware of them as well. In the 26 years since Christy Ringler's death, Carla had gotten divorced and remarried to a college professor. She now lived a comfortable life outside Grand Rapids in a spacious a frame home on five acres of land. Her father had died in 1999, and all she could think about afterwards was he'd gotten away with it completely, and that tore at her. And then one day in January of last year, she picked up a newspaper and read for the very first time about Larry Suter. Melody, Larry's wife, had convinced John Smitenka, a former prosecutor, to take Larry's case. A medical examiner who had testified at Larry's trial now believed it was unlikely Ringler's wounds were caused by a whiskey bottle.

Betty (neighbor harassed by neighbor) (24:03)

I was sitting in here in this living room, and my husband was in the TV room, and I read this article about Christy Ringler, and I'm like, oh, my God, someone has been convicted of this. I'm telling you, I literally just about

Alex Kotlowitz (Storyteller) (24:27)

fell on the floor at that moment. It hit Carla because she had held onto this knowledge about her father's probable involvement in Christy Ringler's death. Someone had been sent to prison. The very next morning, she called Larry's lawyer and spoke with his associate.

Betty (neighbor harassed by neighbor) (24:45)

I said to her, you might think I'm a crazy woman or something, because I'm sure you don't get these phone calls all the time, but I know this Larry Suter story that you're working on, and I reported that my dad killed that girl.

Alex Kotlowitz (Storyteller) (25:10)

They did, in fact, worry she might be a crazy person. No one had ever seen anything from the police indicating that they'd interviewed Carla. So the attorneys quickly filed a Freedom of Information act request. And in a stack of police reports they received, they found the very note that Carla had left for Detective Foster, as well as half a page of nearly indecipherable notes the detectives took from an apparent phone interview with her father. One thing led to another, and within two months, Larry Souter got word that the authorities finally believed him. His conviction was vacated, and after 13 years and 18 days in prison, on April 1st of last year, he walked out a free man. Carla at first asked the attorneys to keep her identity hidden, though that was impossible because it was such a public case. Mostly, she felt she had completely Failed this man, this stranger, Larry Suter.

Betty (neighbor harassed by neighbor) (26:06)

I cried for a long time. Weeks.

Alex Kotlowitz (Storyteller) (26:13)

About two months after being released from prison, Larry told his lawyer that he wanted to meet Carla. So they agreed to have lunch at a local Applebee's, and Carla prepared herself for Larry's fury.

Betty (neighbor harassed by neighbor) (26:25)

My husband literally had to help me out of the car. I was trembling so much. And I knew who he was right away when we walked in. And we just both kind of collapsed in tears. And I wasn't sure why he was crying, but I was just so overwhelmed with guilt that I could hardly look at him.

Alex Kotlowitz (Storyteller) (26:59)

On a recent afternoon, Larry came by to see Carla. Somewhat surprisingly, they've become friends. And in an odd twist of fate, they're both battling cancer and have helped each other out during their respective treatments. On this rainy afternoon, the two stood in the kitchen in a tight embrace. And as they held each other, Carla became overwhelmed with guilt and began to cry.

Larry Suter (27:22)

It's gonna be all right.

Betty (neighbor harassed by neighbor) (27:29)

I'm so sorry.

Julia (Betty's daughter) (27:30)

Sorry I say this.

Alex Kotlowitz (Storyteller) (27:40)

Carla can't help herself. Whenever she sees Larry, she breaks down and apologizes. There was even a period of two months when car. Carla wouldn't return Larry's phone calls.

Betty (neighbor harassed by neighbor) (27:51)

Because you can only apologize so many times and felt the need to do it all the time.

Alex Kotlowitz (Storyteller) (27:59)

I just seem like you're awfully hard on yourself. I mean, you've righted something. You gave somebody his freedom.

Betty (neighbor harassed by neighbor) (28:07)

I didn't give Larry his freedom. What he didn't do gave him his freedom. If I was going to give him his freedom, I would have given it to him 13 years ago, and I didn't do that. And that's where I failed.

Alex Kotlowitz (Storyteller) (28:25)

But I think you've been so hard on yourself. You didn't know he was there.

Betty (neighbor harassed by neighbor) (28:29)

No, but I knew what the right thing at the moment was. You know, in my heart of hearts, I knew what was happening, and I just let it go. And I don't understand a person that can do that.

Alex Kotlowitz (Storyteller) (28:47)

Here's the strange thing about all this. In certain ways, all of this has been harder for Carla to handle than for Larry. Sometimes you happen upon a moment. You witness something on the street. Let's say a man threatening a woman or a parent hitting a child. And the fate of a complete stranger rests on how you handle things.

Voice Actor / Performer (Hamster voices) (29:07)

And.

Alex Kotlowitz (Storyteller) (29:07)

And you feel powerless to do anything. So you turn your head, you walk away. Or, as in Carla's case, you try to do something, but not forcefully enough. Then you resume your life, Though those moments stay with you. Well, imagine if you got a second chance. Carla did, and she paid a price for getting a second shot at it. Now she's even more tormented because it really has sunk in the kind of power she held 26 years earlier. And so she feels ashamed. Larry, though, sees it all quite differently.

Larry Suter (29:42)

She's my angel.

Betty (neighbor harassed by neighbor) (29:43)

That's what he calls me, his angel. Matter of fact, he brought me a gift a couple of weeks ago, and it's a lawn ornament and it has

Larry Suter (29:55)

couple angels on it.

Betty (neighbor harassed by neighbor) (29:56)

Couple angels

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (29:59)

on it.

Betty (neighbor harassed by neighbor) (29:59)

And it lights up at night. I want you to know I go out in the middle of the night when I can't sleep and I look

Alex Kotlowitz (Storyteller) (30:08)

at it while Carla spends sleepless nights staring at her angels, remembering the past Larry's trying to forget. Right after he got released, he and Melody built a bonfire to burn all the clothes and letters associated with his time in prison. Not long ago, as a gift, Larry gave one of his toothpick constructions to Carla. She has it displayed in her living room. It's a log cabin with a chimney built with pebbles Larry collected from the prison yard. This, of course, is what Larry did to forget, but now Carla has it as a constant reminder.

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (30:58)

Alex Kotlowitz is the author of several books, most recently An American Summer. Today's show, like I said earlier, is a rerun from years ago. Carla died from breast cancer in 2008. Coming up, a family wishes for years to get the power to defend themselves against a dangerous neighbor. Nan they get it and they have to decide if they want to use it. That's in a minute on Chicago Public Radio. When our program continues. Support for this American Life and the following message come from Redfin. You're listening to a podcast, which means you are probably multitasking. Are you scrolling home listings on Redfin? Saving homes that you don't really expect to get? Redfin wants you to know that they are not just built for endless scrolling. They really are built to help you find and own home. Redfin agents close twice as many deals as other agents. So when you find the one, you got a shot at getting it. Get started@redfin.com own the dream support for

Ira Glass (31:59)

this American life and the following message come from Capella University. You know that feeling when there's a spark building inside you that you were meant for more. That's your own drive pushing you towards what's next. Capella University gets that with their flexpath learning format, you can set the pace and earn your degree without putting life on pause. You've built experience and know what you're capable of. Now this is your time to turn that momentum into more. The only real question is, what can't you do? Learn more at capella. Edu Support for this American life comes from BetterHelp. May is mental Health Awareness Month, a reminder that you don't have to do this life alone. From loneliness to anxiety to financial stress. Right now, people everywhere are struggling. But having a licensed therapist with you by video phone or chat can make a difference. And BetterHelp makes it easy. Sign up now and get 10% off@betterhelp.com Tal that's better. H E L P.com Tal

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (32:59)

this is American Life. I'm Ira Glass. If you're going to program, of course we choose a theme, bring you a variety of different kinds of stories on that theme. Today's show with Great power, stories about ordinary people who find themselves with the superhero's dilemma. With great power comes great responsibility. We've arrived at Act 2 of our show, Act 2, Unwelcome Wagon. There's a kind of a power that only means something if you don't use it. Like, for example, threatening to use a nuclear weapon. This story is about something like that, except instead of taking place in the desolate borders of rival nations who hate and fear each other, it occurs entirely on a quiet street in the suburbs between next door neighbors. We've changed the names of everybody you're going to hear from in this story as we go along. You'll see why. It begins years ago with a woman who we're going to call Betty and her husband when they decided to move from the inner city to a quiet suburban neighborhood. Their kids were young. At first it was great. But then their next door neighbor decided he was going to build a fence and what he thought was the property line.

Julia (Betty's daughter) (33:59)

And he kept saying, I know where the property line is. I've lived here 12 years and I'm putting my fence on it. And my husband said, well, we should get a survey because our deed doesn't show it there.

Julia (child version) or another family member (34:14)

So we asked him to do a survey and he refused.

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (34:18)

This is Betty's daughter, who's now all grown up, who we'll call Julia.

Julia (child version) or another family member (34:21)

So we had a survey done anyway.

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (34:23)

Of all things, the survey gave even more land to the neighbor than he thought he'd had, which you would think would have made him happy. But in fact, Betty and Julia say it just made him mad because he had not waited for the survey to start building this fence. And now, thanks to the survey, that he had not wanted, his yard was actually bigger and he had to move the fence.

Julia (Betty's daughter) (34:43)

He was very angry, and he was going to sue us because he said we made him put his fence. Fence in the wrong place. It all started from that.

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (34:55)

And so how much of the fight was actually about the property and how much was it that he just didn't like the look of you?

Julia (Betty's daughter) (35:00)

You know, I'm guessing about 10% about the property, 90% didn't like us. The word that they used often about us and he very often was, you people ain't from here. We were just different, I guess, than we were liberals. Yeah, we were liberals. We looked different, we acted different.

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (35:29)

After that, things started happening. They started small. One night, Betty was on the phone, and she looked out the window towards the neighbor's yard. Each of the two houses had a long driveway coming back from the road, and the two driveways were nearly side by side. The neighbor's truck was in his driveway near the two houses.

Julia (Betty's daughter) (35:45)

I could see cigarettes being relit out in his vehicle. And I realized that he sat in his vehicle and watched us.

Julia (child version) or another family member (35:56)

So he watched us for hours into our living room, which had these big picture windows.

Julia (Betty's daughter) (36:03)

And I can't think of anything more boring than watching us. But he did,

Julia (child version) or another family member (36:09)

especially after we got cable.

Julia (Betty's daughter) (36:11)

That was the beginning.

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (36:14)

Wait, so he would just sit there for hours. You guys are, like, coming in and out of the family room with a bowl of popcorn, and you sit in front of the tv and, like, that's what he's doing.

Julia (Betty's daughter) (36:22)

Exactly.

Alex Kotlowitz (Storyteller) (36:22)

Wow.

Julia (Betty's daughter) (36:23)

And we didn't go to anybody because, you know, he can sit out in his truck if he wants to. It's a little strange.

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (36:30)

At first. I figured he would just lose interest and stop. But he didn't stop. Other things started happening. They got crank calls for a while. Every time they sat down to dinner, they got a call. Their license plate disappeared. The lights outside their house were shot out with a BB gun. They called the cops, only to be told that if they wanted to build a case, they needed to capture the crimes on videotape, which they tried to do. And more interested than anything else, every time they left the house, it seemed like the neighbor was waiting for them.

Julia (child version) or another family member (36:58)

We could not go outside without some interaction, without him yelling or insulting us in some way.

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (37:06)

And what would he yell?

Julia (Betty's daughter) (37:08)

Oh, well, to me, it was always the same.

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (37:10)

Okay, I'm just gonna stop the tape right there for a quick warning to listeners. A nice Southern lady is about to get a little salty.

Julia (Betty's daughter) (37:17)

Oh, well, to me, it was always the same. Get your ugly old ass out of here, you ugly old bitch. You old Bitch shouldn't be on this earth. To my husband, it would be, you ain't no man. There's nothing to you. You're worthless. You let your wife wear the pants in the family.

Julia (child version) or another family member (37:40)

And he sat there with popcorn, watching us and mocking us and saying, oh, y' all are putting on a big show. You know. Y' all want some popcorn? And offered it to my dad.

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (37:54)

Wait, and what were you all doing?

Julia (child version) or another family member (37:56)

Just going into the garage, maybe to get a bike or to get some old furniture out from storage.

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (38:02)

It's such a commitment to messing with you.

Julia (Betty's daughter) (38:05)

Yes, it was his life.

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (38:08)

One morning, they woke up to find this neighborly greeting, the words bitch and whore literally carved into their lawn in giant block letters. One set was up by the house, the other set down by the curb.

Julia (Betty's daughter) (38:20)

And they were done with some type of very strong weed killer

Julia (child version) or another family member (38:28)

that would last a year.

Julia (Betty's daughter) (38:29)

Yeah, we would either have to have them dug out and dig down, like, two feet, or they were going to be there for a year. They were there for a year.

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (38:39)

And so people would drive by your house for a year, and the word whore would be down on the lawn.

Julia (child version) or another family member (38:45)

The bus would pick me up for school in eighth grade, and it would be there. No one would say anything, though.

Julia (Betty's daughter) (38:53)

There was also a picture. We interpret it to be a dog doing an obscene act with a woman.

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (39:01)

Wait, wait. You mean he drew it on the

Julia (Betty's daughter) (39:03)

lawn with the weed killer? Yes.

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (39:06)

A dog and a woman.

Julia (Betty's daughter) (39:08)

It was good enough that neighbors knew what it was.

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (39:12)

And did you have the feeling that the entire neighborhood was against you?

Julia (child version) or another family member (39:16)

Yes.

Julia (Betty's daughter) (39:18)

Yes.

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (39:19)

Really? Like everybody sided with him?

Julia (Betty's daughter) (39:23)

I don't know that I would go so far to say they sided with him, but more the feeling that you've stirred up something in the neighborhood that we didn't want stirred up that we

Julia (child version) or another family member (39:38)

set him off somehow and that it was our fault.

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (39:41)

They have other stories. The neighbor would play chicken with her car. He'd point his headlights into their house for hours, flash them on and off. When they went away on vacation, he would drive under their lawn, spin the tires. When Julia's little brother went out on his bike, the neighbor would get on a bike himself sometimes and circle the little brother and lunge at him so he would fall off. He was only 8. It was strange, they say, to feel that somebody hated them so much at some point, he started going after your pets.

Julia (Betty's daughter) (40:09)

Yeah, this was a very emotional thing for me. I mean, we didn't tell Julia about it until, I guess, this past year.

Julia (child version) or another family member (40:18)

Not all the details. I was an animal lover as a Kid she was. I always took home the cat on the side of the road. And I had a little black cat named Phoenix. And he killed it.

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (40:32)

He killed it.

Julia (Betty's daughter) (40:34)

One day we found Phoenix beside the fence, but just pushed through the bottom of the fence on our property. And if you looked across his driveway at the end of his house, there was a big metal baseball bat leaning against the house. Well, by that time we had attorneys and they said, take the cat and have it autopsied. And we did. And it had been killed by a blow. Two blows, two wet. But that was a part of him. He not only killed the cat, but he wanted you to know how he did it. And by leaving the bat, we knew what happened.

Julia (child version) or another family member (41:22)

He had left it out by the driveway for me to find while I waited for the school bus. But it was a snow day that day, so my parents were the ones who found it.

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (41:33)

And so did you not find out about it?

Julia (child version) or another family member (41:35)

For years later, I just knew he died.

Julia (Betty's daughter) (41:40)

We just couldn't tell her.

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (41:44)

They thought about moving. They even put their house on the market after the words bitch and whore had grown back on the lawn, of course. But the economy wasn't so great. The house didn't sell. So they stayed, vowing not to let the neighbor get to them. This wasn't easy. By now they were in the middle of basically an all out war. There were restraining orders and counter restraining orders and court charges and countercharges. By this time, both sides were videotaping each other. Betty and her husband trying over and over to get some proof that would finally incriminate the neighbor and stop him never getting it. So that's how it went for over two years. And then a fateful pile of garbage was dumped onto the lawn. A pile of garbage that was actually able to change the balance of power, giving Julia and Betty and their family both great power and great responsibility. The neighbor had thrown trash on the property before. Mostly little things, cans, cigarette butts. Nothing interesting, nothing useful.

Julia (Betty's daughter) (42:38)

But one day we went out and there was a whole lot of stuff. It was papers, letters, bank statements, mortgage. It had everything about them, that series of numbers that, you know, makes us the person we are in America.

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (43:01)

You mean. You mean Social Security number?

Julia (Betty's daughter) (43:03)

His Social Security number, yes, he and his wife's. I always suspected it was. Maybe the wife got mad at him or one of the daughters because they were adult young women. And actually in that pile of stuff were letters from the daughters saying, oh, mom, why don't you know, Sort of like daddy's terrible and you're Good and personal things as well as business type things.

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (43:37)

I mean, you photocopied a few of these and sent them to us. I have to say.

Alex Kotlowitz (Storyteller) (43:39)

Hold on.

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (43:40)

I have them here. They're so unbelievably personal, you feel embarrassed to read them.

Julia (Betty's daughter) (43:47)

You do. You do.

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (43:49)

I mean, one of them starts with a sort of caveat. I hope you never read this letter, because if you do, it means that things are just very bad between us. And another one, one of the daughters sort of says, like, well, I'm writing this letter while you and dad are fighting over some silly stuff. And you just. It's so heartbreaking.

Julia (Betty's daughter) (44:09)

It is. He was so mean, and that showed what his family thought of him, how he had raised him to be, what his wife thought of him. You know, we were a family that loved each other. We had dinner together and, you know.

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (44:25)

Yeah.

Julia (Betty's daughter) (44:26)

We still laughed and had fun.

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (44:29)

So suddenly you guys had his Social Security number and all these bank numbers and all that, and you've saved it.

Julia (Betty's daughter) (44:36)

Yes, we have.

Julia (child version) or another family member (44:37)

We have a briefcase, and it's. It's our little treasure chest.

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (44:41)

So really, suddenly you had, like, a tremendous leverage over him. I mean, you could really do some damage. Did you think about it?

Julia (Betty's daughter) (44:49)

Oh, yes, we talked about it.

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (44:52)

What did you think about doing?

Julia (child version) or another family member (44:55)

Oh,

Julia (Betty's daughter) (44:57)

Closing up his business and bank account.

Julia (child version) or another family member (45:01)

Posting all his information in some truck stop or in many truck stops across the Southeast so that somebody could steal it.

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (45:08)

Just like posting his Social Security number.

Julia (child version) or another family member (45:11)

Yeah, right.

Julia (Betty's daughter) (45:12)

Making him a child porn person so he could never live anywhere comfortable again.

Julia (child version) or another family member (45:18)

Put him on a sex offender list, you know, Kachovia te, Hezbollah. He could join nambla.

Julia (Betty's daughter) (45:27)

Any of those type things would be good.

Alex Kotlowitz (Storyteller) (45:30)

I love the joy in your voice

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (45:32)

as you're saying these words.

Julia (Betty's daughter) (45:36)

Yeah.

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (45:37)

So now they had great power to mess with their neighbor, to punish their neighbor. He would never know what hit him. He would have no idea it was them. And despite what were, I have to say, clearly, hours and hours that they spent talking about their revenge fantasies, they held their fire. They showed restraint.

Julia (Betty's daughter) (45:53)

We had the thoughts, but we never did anything.

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (45:58)

Oh, wow. So it was just nice to hold onto them in the special briefcase as a sort of secret weapon.

Julia (Betty's daughter) (46:05)

Yes.

Julia (child version) or another family member (46:05)

It's like we have a little piece of him in this briefcase, and at

Julia (Betty's daughter) (46:10)

any time we could do something with it.

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (46:13)

Well, in a way, then the main thing that finding all these papers, that it gives you, it's like a gift because it helps with the one thing you've got, which is being able to fantasize about revenge.

Julia (Betty's daughter) (46:21)

Right. That's True. And if we ever used it, that would be gone. I mean, if we put it out in the truck stop or did something on the Internet, that would be gone. We would have done our thing and, you know, we still can fantasize.

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (46:39)

Yeah, yeah.

Julia (child version) or another family member (46:41)

But it would be different if we didn't have these things. Because, you know, saying if you have no power, then not using power means nothing. But we have the power to do something, but we choose not to. I don't know, gives us control over him and control over him in a way we never had when he was tormenting us.

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (47:05)

Eventually, the neighbor moved away, stopping back to harass them only occasionally. Julia and Betty and their family moved later. But after all these years, they've kept that briefcase full of papers. You never know when it is that you're going to need your secret superpower. Act three Waiting for Joe. Well, in this act, we make a little shift. This is going to be a story about somebody with great power. But the story is going to be told from the point of view of the powerless. When you're powerless, you spend a lot of time speculating about those above you. Much more than the other way around. I think the people above us, they do not care. They don't notice. You and me, not in the same way, but we think a lot about them. Our parents, our bosses, our bosses, bosses. The people who run our government, the people who run the big companies that shape our daily lives. What is going through their heads? We think, why are they acting this way? And there's one figure I think that we wonder about more than any other. Sholom Alexander grew up in a place consumed by with these particular questions and has this story.

Voice Actor / Performer (Hamster voices) (48:21)

In the beginning, he was always on time. But it had been a long time since the beginning, longer than either Donut or Danish could remember. I don't get it, complained Danish. Isn't it time? It's time, answered Donut. It feels like it's time. It's time. Danish paced anxiously back and forth. Of course it was time. He knew it was time. He didn't need Donut to tell him that it was time. So where is he then? Asked Danish. If it's time, then where is he? I don't understand. Either he knows that it's time, or he doesn't. Does he know that it's time? Donuts sat curled up inside their cold, empty feeding bowl, focused intently on the doorknob of the apartment front door, believing with all of his heart that at any moment the doorknob would turn, the door would open. And Joe would appear. We cannot pretend to think that we know what Joe knows. And what Joe doesn't know, pronounced Donut with a sharp twitch of his nose. We must only believe with all our heart that Joe knows. I bet he doesn't know, said Danish. He rose up on his hind legs and flailed uselessly at the glass walls until he became exhausted. Exhausted, breathing heavily, he lumbered over to the water bottle that hung in the far corner and drew a few drops into his mouth. You non believers are all the same, scoffed Donut. He pushed some dry cedar chips into a small, comfortable mound and settled down upon it. As if you were the first hamster to ever doubt him, he said. The first rodent to ever think. Really. Who else but you, with your keen intellect, your contrarian insight, your moral bravery and conviction, who else could possibly come up with what if Joe doesn't? What if Joe can't? Joe knows who believes Danish, and Joe knows who doesn't. Joe is here. Joe is there. Joe is simply everywhere. What if he never comes back? What if he's forgotten us? What if. What if he's died? You look around at all your plastic tube highways and your fabulous habit trail and think you're special. But do ants not build anthills? Do bees not build hives? It is not what we build that makes us unique. It is what we believe. It is that we believe it all. Doubt, my dear Danish, is no great achievement. It is faith that sets us apart. Besides, added Donut, he left his wallet on the front table. He's gotta come back. He did, Asked Danish. He stood up on his back legs and squinted through the glass.

Alex Kotlowitz (Storyteller) (51:04)

Where?

Voice Actor / Performer (Hamster voices) (51:05)

Donut walked over and stood beside Danish. There on the table. Where? There. That? Yes. That's not a wallet, you idiot. Of course it's a wallet. It's a book, said Danish. It's not a book. Sure it is, said Danish. I can read the spine. Along came a Spider by James Patterson. He dropped down and shook his head. Oh no, he does not. Donut squinted a moment longer. Damn. It was a paperback. Why would Joe abandon them? Why would he leave a sign for them right there on the foyer table and then make it not a sign? And why James Patterson? What did it all mean? He does not read James freaking Patterson. Cried Danish. Our salvation, our provider. We must be out of our minds. It's a test, donut said as he curled back up in his bed. He's testing our faith. Danish stood on his hind legs and flailed uselessly at the glass wall until he became exhausted he took a drink of water, climbed up into the plastic tree house, and curled into a tight, angry ball. I happen to find Patterson thought provoking and suspenseful, donut said after a moment. You what? Asked Danish. Did you just say you find James Patterson thought provoking and suspenseful? Jesus Christ, open your eyes, Donut. Don't you see what he's doing to us? Holding our food over our heads like this, Dangling our fate before us like a banana raisin nut bar tied to the end of a stick. Look at you, Donut. Are you so desperate to believe that you're actually defending James Patterson? I thought Cat and Mouse was a taught psychological thriller, said Donut. Oh, bite me, said Danish. Donut closed his eyes. Hunger stabbed sharply at his stomach, but he would never admit it to Danish. Where the hell was Joe? Danish rummaged frantically through the seed shells and shavings that covered the floor of their transparent little world. He isn't coming, he said, looking for even a sliver of a husk of a shell of a seed. He isn't coming. Doughnut nestled deeper into his bed, eyes shut tight in fervent concentration. May he who has fed us yesterday, he prayed, feed us again today and tomorrow and forever. Amen. Yes. Danish suddenly shouted. Yaha. He pulled a brown chunk of apple from beneath a small mound at the back of the cage and raised it victoriously overhead, without even stopping to knock off the stray bits of cedar and pine needle that stuck to its sides. Danish opened his mouth wide and dropped it in. He made quite a show of chewing it, mmming and oh ing and ahhing, finally swallowing it with a loud, dramatic gulp. He smiled, patted his stomach, and burped a deep, long belch of satisfaction. He washed it down with a few drops of water and slid down to the floor with a contented sigh. Donut watched Danish, a sour mix of jealousy and disdain on his face. His stomach groaned. Where the hell was Joe? Donut stood up and stomped over to Danish, who looked up at him lazily. Well? Demanded Donut. Well what? Well, maybe you could give a little thanks, said Donut. Thanks? Asked Danish. To who? To Joe, Danish. To Joe. For what? For the apple he gave you. The apple he gave me? Asked Danish. I found that apple myself. Do you think the apple just grew there? Donut shouted. How did the apple get there, Danish? We searched this cage a thousand times and never found a thing. That apple was a miracle, a gift. Joe heard my prayers, and he brought forth upon this cage a holy apple. His stomach grumbled. Danish belched again and rubbed his belly with pride. Accept Donut, that you didn't get any food. You asked, I received. Seems like a strange system to me. He sucked a piece of apple rind out from between his teeth. Not that I'm complaining. You know what? Next time why don't you ask him for a carrot? I simply must start getting more fiber. Joe grants food to those who need it most, replied Donut bitterly. Danish tired quickly of Donut's lectures, particularly when he was hungry, which he suddenly was again. He got back up and began searching again through the rough cedar chips that covered the floor. Donut dragged himself wearily back to bed. The miracle of the apple had made him ravenous. Donut would never admit it. He was ashamed to even think it. But lately he'd begun to doubt. Lately Joe and his mysterious ways were beginning to tick him off. It was the same thing with him every damn day. Begging thanks, begging verse, chorus, verse. Why me? Wondered Donut. It must have been his own fault. He must have sinned. He must have angered Joe. Just last week he had questioned why their litter wasn't changed more frequently. Perhaps there's a cedar shortage? He'd asked Danish sarcastically. It is a hardwood, you know. He had even complained aloud that their cage was too small. The chutzpah. Some hamsters didn't even have a cage, let alone a habit trail and an exercise wheel. How could he have been so ungrateful? He barely even used the blessed exercise wheel. A beautiful exercise wheel that any hamster would love, and Donut had only ever used it once. He was ashamed of himself. No wonder there wasn't any food. Why should Joe give him anything more if he couldn't appreciate what he had already been given? Donut closed his eyes and silently thanked Joe for starving him in order to show him the error of his ways. Forgive me, he prayed. And with that, Donut hurried out of bed and climbed onto the exercise wheel. He ran as fast as he could, huffing and puffing, regret and retribution nipping at his heels. Danish, meanwhile, was going mad. He'd been tricked, tricked by Joe. He was even hungrier now than he'd been before he'd eaten Joe's cursed apple. Oh, yes, very good, Joe. Yes, quite witty. Shouted Danish. Well done, old boy. Touche. Back on the exercise wheel, Donut could run no more. He stumbled back to bed. Danish stood on his hind legs and flailed uselessly at the glass walls until he became exhausted. Donut prayed, and behold, suddenly the doorknob did turn, the apartment door did open, and Joe did appear Danish peed in excitement. Donut crapped in fear. Joe was thin and pale, and he wore a rumpled brown suit. The badge hanging from his chest pocket read Mail room. There was a woman with him, too, a woman Danish and Donut had never seen before. She had thin hair and thick glasses, and she and Joe wrestled their way through the doorway as one groping and feeling and rubbing each other as if each had somehow lost the keys in the other's pants pockets. Jo groaned and tore open her blouse. Danish and Donut pressed their noses to the glass. There better be apples in there, said Danish. Forgive me, Joe, for doubting you, prayed Donut. Joe lifted the woman into his arms. To hell with dinner, he whispered. She threw her head back and laughed, and as they headed down the hallway toward his bedroom, Joe switched the living room lights off with his elbow. Darkness. Donut looked at Danish. Danish looked at Donut. We have brought this upon ourselves, said Donut. Danish stood on his hind legs and flailed uselessly at the glass walls until he became exhausted. Donut pray.

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (60:01)

Shalom, Alexander. His story Waiting for Joe is from his collection Beware of God. His most recent book is a memoir,

Voice Actor / Performer (Hamster voices) (60:10)

I won't be a victim,

Betty (neighbor harassed by neighbor) (60:15)

a beggar

Voice Actor / Performer (Hamster voices) (60:16)

or fool

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (60:20)

I try to live my

Betty (neighbor harassed by neighbor) (60:22)

life

Alex Kotlowitz (Storyteller) (60:24)

by the golden root

Betty (neighbor harassed by neighbor) (60:29)

if you

Julia (Betty's daughter) (60:29)

don't love me,

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (60:33)

what am I supposed to do?

Julia (Betty's daughter) (60:37)

I'll take the high road

Betty (neighbor harassed by neighbor) (60:41)

Walk on away from you.

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (60:45)

Royal program is produced today by Elise Spiegel and myself with Alex Bloomberg, Diane Cook, Jane Marie, Amy o', Leary, Lisa Pollock and Nancy Updike. Senior producer for today's show is Julie Snyder. Elizabeth Meister ran our website back when we did this show. Production help from Seth Lind and Kathy Hahn. Music up today from Jessica Hopper. Help on today's rerun from Adrienne Lilly, Molly Marcelo, Catherine Raimondo and Stone Nelson. Special thanks today to Davey Rothbart, John Smitenka and Ann Buckleitner. Thanks today to this American Life Partners Cho Moon, Wendy Epstein and Nicole Valentine. Our latest bonus episode as a graduation speech that I gave, I gave very reluctantly, I will say. A speech that includes some deeply personal information and also the true story of the day that my nice Jewish grandmother, Grandma Frieda, met Adolf Hitler. No kidding. That happened in 1932. To hear our many bonus episodes and get lots of other stuff, please consider becoming a this American Life Partner. Life Partners have become an essential part of funding our show. We're counting on it to go grow. Join at this American Life.org Life Partners. That link is also in the show Notes this American Life is delivered to public radio stations by prx, the public radio exchange. Thanks as always to our program's co founder, Mr. Tori Malla, who wanders into the studio while we're on the air, hands full of snacks.

Julia (child version) or another family member (62:02)

Oh, y' all are putting on a big show, you know. Y' all want some popcorn?

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (62:07)

I'm Eric Glass. Back next week with more stories of this American Life.

Voice Actor / Performer (Hamster voices) (62:26)

Next week on the podcast of this American Life. There have been so many efforts by the Trump administration this year to pry certain people away from their jobs and their communities, the lives they've built. One family decided to respond with an unexpected secret weapon.

Betty (neighbor harassed by neighbor) (62:42)

Pull it up.

Julia (Betty's daughter) (62:43)

You should just pull out the spreadsheet.

Alex Kotlowitz (Storyteller) (62:45)

I can do that. It's beautiful. It's excellent.

Betty (neighbor harassed by neighbor) (62:47)

It's a thing of beauty.

Voice Actor / Performer (Hamster voices) (62:49)

Garrett and Chrissy and their magical spreadsheet next week on the podcast or on

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (62:53)

your local public radio station.

Ira Glass (63:06)

Support for this American Life comes from Charles Schwab with their original podcast Choiceology. Hosted by Katie Milkman, an award winning behavioral scientist and author of the best selling book how to Change. Choiceology is a show about the psychology and economics behind people's decisions. Hear true stories from Nobel laureates, historians, authors, athletes and more about why people do the things they do. Download the latest episode and subscribe@schwab.com podcast or wherever you listen.

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (63:37)

This message comes from Capella University. That spark you feel, that's your drive for more.

Betty (neighbor harassed by neighbor) (63:42)

Capella University's flexpath learning format lets you

Julia (child version) or another family member (63:45)

earn your degree at your pace without

Narrator / Host (Ira Glass or guest narrator) (63:48)

putting life on pause.

Betty (neighbor harassed by neighbor) (63:49)

Learn more at Capella.

Julia (child version) or another family member (63:50)

Eduardo.