823: The Question Trap

Summary

This American Life: Episode 823 - "The Question Trap"
Release Date: January 26, 2025
Host: Ira Glass
Produced by: This American Life in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago

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Overview

In Episode 823, titled "The Question Trap," This American Life delves into the nuanced and often hidden meanings behind seemingly innocent questions. Hosted by Ira Glass, the episode unpacks how everyday inquiries can carry deeper, sometimes subconscious, intentions that reveal more about relationships, personal insecurities, and societal norms. Through a series of engaging stories and insightful discussions, the program explores the complex layers beneath simple interactions.

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Act 1: Dating and the "Beyoncé Question"

Tobin Lowe, an editor on the show, initiates the episode by sharing his personal experience with question traps in the dating scene. After moving to the Bay Area with his husband, Tobin notices family members repeatedly asking, "Which one of you is handy?" This question, on the surface, appears to be about domestic roles but subtly probes the dynamics of their relationship, particularly questioning who embodies traditional masculine traits.

Tobin Lowe [01:00]: "Why does she want to know that? Like, why does she care?"

Tobin realizes that such questions are a way to categorize relationships into familiar societal roles, triggering his defensiveness rooted in his past experiences of hiding his femininity and sexuality.

The "Beyoncé Question" emerges as a potent example of a question trap. Emmanuel Joci, the executive editor and a male producer, discusses how asking someone's opinion about Beyoncé serves as a litmus test for their respect towards powerful Black women. Negative responses to Beyoncé often signal deeper prejudices or incompatibilities in potential partners.

Emmanuel Joci [09:10]: "I bring up like a black female celebrity to get their opinion on them, and it usually becomes like the litmus test for how they would treat me."

Through anecdotes, such as Emmanuel's failed date where the man dismissed Beyoncé without regret, the episode underscores how these questions reveal underlying attitudes and values.

Resolution: Tobin shares a positive outcome with a current boyfriend who initially lacked knowledge about Beyoncé but took the time to learn and appreciate her significance, turning what could have been a red flag into a green one.

Tobin Lowe [18:55]: "He ended up being a green flag. Now, I talk to him about Beyoncé all the time..."

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Act 2: Navigating Personal Tragedy in Public Questions

Chris Benderev narrates the story of Stacey Silberman and her husband Michael, real estate agents in Southern California who have faced the profound challenge of responding to questions about their children following the tragic death of their older son, Max, in 2017.

Chris Benderev [20:13]: "Max was a funny kid, always loved playing pranks..."

The Silvermans encounter a recurring dilemma: strangers ask about their children, leading to emotionally charged responses that drain the conversation and unsettle their interactions. To cope, they developed strategies like offering brief, generalized answers or sometimes concealing the truth to maintain social harmony.

During a public performance at the Hollywood Improv, Adam Ray, a comedian, inadvertently asks them about their children on stage. Caught off guard and in the spotlight, Tobin impulsively reveals their son's passing, turning a potentially painful moment into one of communal support and remembrance.

Tobin Lowe [28:35]: "I just screwed the show. Well, I'm so sorry. Wow."

This spontaneous honesty resonates with the audience, leading to widespread support and viral attention on social media platforms like TikTok and Instagram. The Silvermans find solace and connection in this shared vulnerability, highlighting how authenticity can transform challenging situations.

Tobin Lowe [31:01]: "It was an incredible moment in time."

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Act 3: The Depth Behind "How's Your Mom?"

Janelle Taylor, a professor of medical anthropology at the University of Toronto, presents an academic exploration of the common question, "How's your mom?" Originally published in Medical Anthropology Quarterly, her adapted essay probes the emotional and psychological underpinnings of such inquiries, especially when directed at individuals caring for loved ones with dementia.

Janelle Taylor [34:57]: "Does she recognize you? That is the wrong question."

Taylor argues that the surface-level question masks deeper concerns about the well-being of both the caregiver and the individual with dementia. She emphasizes the importance of recognizing the personhood and emotional connections that persist despite cognitive decline.

Through her narrative, Taylor shares personal anecdotes about her mother, Charlene, who battled progressive dementia. She illustrates how traditional questions can inadvertently alienate caregivers by not acknowledging the meaningful, albeit altered, relationships they maintain.

Janelle Taylor: "Mom and I make what passes for conversation. ... The exchange is the point."

Taylor advocates for more compassionate and insightful questions that validate the enduring bonds between caregivers and their loved ones, moving beyond mere recognition of names or facts.

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Act 4: The Hidden Pressures Behind Standardized Tests

The episode transitions to a segment on standardized testing, focusing on a math question from the SHSAT (Specialized High Schools Admissions Test):

Ira Glass: "If Matthew scored an average of 15 points per basketball game and played 24 games in one season, how many points did he score in the season?"

This seemingly straightforward question serves as a metaphor for the high-stakes environment of academic testing, where underlying pressures question a student's self-worth and potential.

Milo Kramer, a tutor, reflects on his experiences preparing students for this test. Initially motivated by a desire to help, Milo becomes increasingly disillusioned as he recognizes the broader societal implications of such educational systems that stratify based on test performance.

Stacey Silberman [47:38]: "Because I thought I was helping children. And I only gradually came to understand that I was really just a fucked up cog in a larger fucked up system."

Through Milo's one-person show, the narrative highlights the emotional toll on both tutors and students, illustrating how these questions enforce narrow definitions of intelligence and success, perpetuating inequalities.

Milo Kramer [50:55]: "Divya, Othello and racism are so indelibly linked."

Kramer's performance underscores the dissonance between educational aspirations and the rigid structures that govern them, questioning the true value and intent behind standardized testing.

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Notable Quotes

• Tobin Lowe [03:00]: "I think segue from being a kid running from or spent a lot of time trying to not have to answer. Like, how masculine am I?"

• Janelle Taylor [34:57]: "Does she recognize you? That is the wrong question."

• Emmanuel Joci [10:08]: "That is the question black women will ask you to determine if you really like black women."

• Stacey Silberman [47:38]: "Because I thought I was helping children. And I only gradually came to understand that I was really just a fucked up cog in a larger fucked up system."

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Concluding Thoughts

"The Question Trap" skillfully unpacks how everyday questions are imbued with significant emotional and social weight. Whether in the realm of dating, personal tragedy, caregiving, or education, the episode illustrates that the implications behind our inquiries often reveal more than we realize. By highlighting these hidden dimensions, This American Life encourages listeners to become more mindful of the questions they ask and to seek deeper understanding in their interactions.

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Learn More

For additional insights and access to the original academic articles referenced in this episode, visit ThisAmericanLife.org.

Transcript

[Tobin Lowe]

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[Emmanuel Joci]

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[Ira Glass]

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[Tobin Lowe]

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[Emmanuel Joci]

Terms apply. See capitalone.combank for details. Capital One NA Member FDIC.

[Ira Glass]

A quick warning. There are curse words that are unbeeped in today's episode of the show. If you prefer a beeped version, you can find that at our website, thisamericanlife.org the question started right after Tobin and his husband moved to the Bay Area and got a house together. Tobin's family was pretty excited about this. They all live within an hour, and they brought meals over for weeks. His mom bought them shades. But this question popped up, and the.

[Tobin Lowe]

First time I noticed it happening, it was with my aunt. Kind of out of nowhere, she was like, oh, which one of you is handy? Is one of you handy? And I was just like, why does she want to know that? Like, why does she care?

[Ira Glass]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Tobin Lowe]

And I had. I had, like, feelings about it, and I couldn't tell why. And then it just kind of kept happening with other family members. Like, they would be talking about, like, oh, you guys moved in together into this house. Which one of you is handy? And on its face, it was kind of like, oh, we know when you're in a house, there's a lot of things to fix and a lot of things to do. But it felt like there was something else happening there, and it kind of bothered me.

[Ira Glass]

Something else there. Like, there was a question underneath the question that they were trying to get the answer to.

[Tobin Lowe]

Yeah. Like, there was something else trying to be figured out. And I don't know, like, the more I thought about it and why I was having feelings about it, it was kind of like this weird aha moment of like, oh, I think you're asking who the man is in my relationship.

[Ira Glass]

Right. You're both men.

[Tobin Lowe]

Yes.

[Ira Glass]

But one of you is really the man.

[Tobin Lowe]

Yes. Yeah.

[Ira Glass]

Then when Tobin would tell them that it was his husband who was the handy one, he felt like he was just giving them ammunition to put a picture of their relationship. That just bugged him. Like they were being sized up into familiar categories. Would you view as the husband? Would you view as the wife?

[Tobin Lowe]

Like, it was weird because whenever they would ask it, I could feel myself getting defensive. I didn't want to give them that picture. And I think part of my defensiveness came from, I think, well, oh, man. Not to take us in a whole other direction, but if you spend any amount of time in the closet.

[Ira Glass]

In the closet, for Tobin, that means middle school and high school.

[Tobin Lowe]

I think you're afraid of being found out at all as being effeminate in any way. Like, I know for me, I was very conscious of if anyone could detect, quote, unquote, you know, feminine traits about me and then figure out if I was gay or not. And so I do think that, like, myself and a lot of gay men, like, carry that around for, like, kind of the rest of your life. And so I think that comes up in having to answer a question like this also.

[Ira Glass]

Yeah. Yeah. It's funny because it's like this innocent question and then. And then really, like, underneath it, it's like there's a bomb waiting to go off, actually. Like, there's so many feelings.

[Tobin Lowe]

Yeah. It feels like it hits on a thing, at least for me, that I spent a lot of time as a kid running from or spent a lot of time trying to not have to answer.

[Ira Glass]

Yeah.

[Tobin Lowe]

Like, how masculine am I? And is somebody else more masculine than I am? And, like, I do want to make room for the idea that they could have meant none of this. Like, absolutely none of this.

[Ira Glass]

Did you address it directly with any of them?

[Tobin Lowe]

No, because that would be bonkers to say, oh, you asked me who's handy. You're trying to say I'm not a man. Like that. The leap in logic to say that outright is so huge.

[Ira Glass]

What a day on our program. Questions that contain other secret questions inside of them. Questions that are wolves in sheep's clothing in all kinds of situations that we've all been in, in dating, in talking to strangers, in dealing with the saddest things that ever happened to us and more. From WBEC Chicago, it's this American Life. I'm Aero Glass. Stay with us. Support for this American Life comes from the Financial Times. Why are some people more confident than others in expressing their opinions at the Financial Times? Their goal is for you to form your own opinions with conviction, based on unbiased and trusted reporting. Whether you're exploring unique data journalism that asks what makes the US truly exceptional or an explainer on the first 100 days of the Trump administration. Visit FT.com ThisAmericanLife to read free articles and save 40% on an annual subscription. Support for this American life comes from GoodRx. Looking for relief from cold and flu symptoms this new year. With Goodrx, you can save an average of $34 on cold and flu medications. Plus, Goodrx lets you compare prescription prices at over 70,000 pharmacies and instantly find discounts of up to 80%. And even if you have insurance or Medicare, Goodrx may beat your copay price. Save on cold and flu prescriptions and [e-mail] tal cis American Life Today's show is a rerun the Question Trap. And instead of four different acts today, what we're going to do is we're going to present the show as four questions. Here's the first one question. Tell me how you feel about this. So Tobin, who you just heard, is one of the editors here at our show. And really the idea for today's program came out of a conversation that happened at a staff meeting. And what happened was we all got talking about these kind of question traps where it seems like somebody's asking about one thing, but the question is a proxy for trying to figure out something else. Tobin will explain more.

[Tobin Lowe]

The conversation was about the questions people ask on first dates, the kind that force who someone really is out into the open, maybe even without them realizing. One such question I didn't even know was a thing. But a few of my co workers said that for black women of a certain age, it's having a kind of renaissance. Emmanuel, our executive editor, asks it this way. What do you think of Beyonce? It was a question that I found myself trying to ask basically a lot on first dates because it told me a lot about them. It's a question that tells you one in some ways how they feel about a powerful black woman. It's a question that tells you how they think about black women in general. Kind of a little bit to me and that like, if you feel the need to like put her down or like say something negative about her, it's like a real turn off. It's like a red flag. Basically. They describe her singing style as kind of like caterwauling or like, oh, she's just screeching bim. Another producer has also asked this question on many a date. All these words that sort of like have double meanings if you're a woman. And also if you're a black woman, I'm just like, all right, so you don't like loud people. Okay, okay. That means you don't like me. Could you tell me about some specific times that you've asked the Beyonce question and what the guy's response was and what it told you first Date, bar, date. Pretty standard. Beyonce actually came on in the bar in the background. I was like, oh, what do you think about Beyonce? And he was like, I don't understand what the big deal is about her. Women act like they're in a cult or something, and it's like they seem like crazy. I was like, oh, well, I really like her. And like, I don't really think I'm in a cult. Emanuel watched the guy through all the reasons Beyonce is in fact, pretty great. But the guy didn't budge. No, he did not. Didn't care to, and maybe didn't care to hear me talk in general is what it seemed like. So they did not go out again because, well, you could say he was unapologetic when he fucked up the night. That's a play on a Beyonce lyric, by the way. Sorry, couldn't help myself. Anyway, BA Parker, who's also been on the show, she said, for her, it doesn't even have to be Beyonce. Any well known black woman does the trick. She say, Serena Williams and they say.

[Emmanuel Joci]

Oh, I think she's overrated.

[Tobin Lowe]

Or if you say Jada Pinkett's like.

[Emmanuel Joci]

Oh, she's too masculine, or she's ruining Will Smith's life, she's controlling him.

[Tobin Lowe]

Or how do you feel about Lizzo? Like she needs to cover her ass.

[Emmanuel Joci]

I bring up like a black female celebrity to get their opinion on them, and it usually becomes like the litmus test for how they would treat me.

[Tobin Lowe]

As a partner, how they would view.

[Emmanuel Joci]

Me as a person.

[Tobin Lowe]

But the Beyonce question, she agrees, is the most potent because the answer can really tell you if you should be crazy in love or putting everything he owns in a box to the left. I again, I am so sorry. The thing about a bunch of people using the same trick, though, is that eventually people, in this case men, might catch on. Are you aware of the Beyonce question? Yes, I am aware of the Beyonce question. Emmanuel Joci, producer and man at the show. Have you experienced this?

[Chris Benderev]

Yeah, I have experienced it many times.

[Tobin Lowe]

He told me about a date he was on where they started talking about musicals and the movie version of Dreamgirls came up and thinking he was just answering a question about the movie. Daniel was honest. He said Beyonce was just okay in that he didn't realize he was answering the wrong question and I was just digging a hole. She was just like, the only answer to being asked about Beyonce is that, yes, she's fantastic. She's amazing. Nobody can do what she does. It was only later that he learned from another guy Friend why he, as a black man, should really only answer one way. I remember my friend saying, basically, that is the question black women will ask you to determine if you really like black women. Once it was explained to me, I totally understood where people were coming from, and I understood what the purpose of that question was. In some cases, the Beyonce question is like an agreed upon farce where both parties know they're talking in code. Parker was recently on a date. She mentioned Beyonce's Black is king film. And he was like. He was like, I don't know what.

[Emmanuel Joci]

To say here because.

[Tobin Lowe]

I like talking to you, but I don't love Beyonce.

[Emmanuel Joci]

And I don't want you to be mad at me.

[Tobin Lowe]

He knew it was a trap. He did know it was a trap. And how did you respond? I was like, what are you talking about? What are you. And he was like, I know girls do this. And I was like, you're. You're right. And I'm sorry. I apologized. And I was like, well, I guess.

[Emmanuel Joci]

That'S kind of the right answer. So we had a couple more dates.

[Tobin Lowe]

Of course, there are other questions, like the Beyonce one. Little traps we set on dates, hoping the other person doesn't fall in, or hoping they do. One that made the news recently, which may or may not be true. According to an old classmate, Governor Ron DeSantis would ask dates if they liked Thai food. But, and this is key, he'd pronounce it thigh food. And if they said, no, it's Thai food, not Thai thigh, he ditched the date. It was his way of testing if they'd correct him, which he did not want. I don't know. Sounds like a test I'd be grateful to fail, but that's just me. Anyway, I talked to a bunch of other people about their question traps. Kelsey in Minnesota asked her dates about their favorite Tom Hanks movies. She said, he's been in so many movies across multiple genres, the answer is kind of like a personality test. Toy Story, for example, tells her there's a stunted adolescence thing going on. Sarah in Tampa said when she started to get a weird vibe, she'd ask, what's your favorite conspiracy theory? Most people would keep their answers lighthearted, but occasionally someone would go all in. One guy started talking all about Nazi separatists. She's Jewish, so, you know, kind of a deal breaker. But not all question traps are subtle. There's another genre that I was surprised anyone fell for. The kind of question that seemed covered in yellow caution tape and a sign that said, this is a Trap. This one comes from Vivian in Iowa. After her husband died in 2016, she found herself back out on the dating scene. Her question on a date was, if your ex walked by right now with their new partner, what would you do? Which was her way of asking a much more interesting question. How fucked up was your last relationship? First time I did it, the guy said I would punch him and give her a piece of my mind. Oh my God. Exactly. We had just sat down to have a nice lunch on a Sunday afternoon. So I'm like, do I get up and go? And that's when the story came out.

[Ira Glass]

Of how he was still about a.

[Tobin Lowe]

Couple of weeks away from going to court for finalizing his divorce. And it had been a 38 year relationship and he found out she had been cheating for most of the time in a completely serendipitous way. She gave him an old phone and that she had wiped. And when she downloaded the cloud, it downloaded into his phone too. And that's how he found out. Wow. You got so much information from that one question.

[Emmanuel Joci]

You got to make it efficient.

[Tobin Lowe]

Why draw it out? I was shocked. This question is so clearly, how bad was your last breakup? Do I have anything to worry about? But something about turning it into a fun little icebreaker made these guys open up. There was another guy that said, well, we would have to leave immediately because I don't want to see them. And my reply was, you don't want to see them or you don't want them to see us? And what was his response? Oh, he never answered directly. But I knew then that he was still in a relationship with her now husband. They met at a widow's support group. He talked about his loneliness and being a single parent. They kind of just got each other. And she knew the question what would you do if your ex showed up? Would not be right for this nice guy who had just lost his wife. She wasn't going to ask that. The last person I talked to was Jessica. She teaches ESL classes in Atlanta. What's your go to question?

[Emmanuel Joci]

Do you believe in ghosts?

[Tobin Lowe]

Ghosts. I bet you didn't see that one coming, did you? Do you believe in ghosts? Here's how Jessica says it works.

[Emmanuel Joci]

There is no one right answer. It just matters that you and your partner have the same answer. Essentially, at its core, your minds kind of work in a similar way.

[Tobin Lowe]

Was there ever a time that you asked the ghost question, the person answered differently than you and you went ahead and dated that person anyway. And how did that go?

[Emmanuel Joci]

Yeah, yeah, I was Engaged before I.

[Tobin Lowe]

Married my husband now.

[Emmanuel Joci]

And the ghost question really should have been my get the fuck out moment.

[Tobin Lowe]

Really?

[Emmanuel Joci]

Yeah.

[Tobin Lowe]

Her answer to the question is, I don't really believe in ghosts, but if there was evidence to the contrary, I could be convinced I'm open to changing my mind.

[Emmanuel Joci]

And his response was no, and there is no information that you could give.

[Tobin Lowe]

Me to change my mind.

[Emmanuel Joci]

And I just.

[Tobin Lowe]

I don't see why anyone would really think that. At the time, she didn't think much about the difference in their answers. But then, as she got to know him better, other things would come up.

[Emmanuel Joci]

And I was frustrated about the fact that, like, everything with you is so black and white. Like, not everything is black and white.

[Tobin Lowe]

Sometimes they're gray. And then I kind of thought back to his answer to this question. His rigidity was one of the big things that broke them up. Now she tells everyone she knows. If you're seeing someone new, ask them the ghost question. It could save you a lot of time. The thing about any trap, of course, is there are ways to sidestep it, disarm it, and then the person who laid the trap has to decide what to do. Emmanuel had to make such a decision. Ironically enough, my current boyfriend had no idea who Beyonce was. Who's the only person who had that response? What did that tell you? That he just needed, like, some education. He's older and he's not from this country and doesn't listen to music. Really. And by the second date, he had read the entire Wikipedia page for me, and he knew Beyonce's birthday and that she was married to Jay Z, and he knew about the elevator fight. So he listened to your opinion? Yeah. It ended up being a green flag. Now, I talk to him about Beyonce all the time, and I don't necessarily think he's, like. He's not going out to Beyonce concerts or anything, but he understands how important she is and how important she is to me and lets me rant about her. So that's all you ever really want, right? It is. All I think anyone wants is someone you don't feel like you have to set a trap for someone who you can look at them and say, you're everything I need and more it's written all over your face, Baby I can feel your halo Pray it won't fade away Sorry. I'm gonna stop now.

[Ira Glass]

Tobin Lowe is an editor on Our program question 2. How old are you? Kids? So there's a particular piece of small talk that happens all the time that, for some people, is like, the most normal thing in the world and for others is a super delicate minefield. This story that you're about to hear is about a couple for whom it is a minefield and how one day a question like this comes up. And it goes completely differently from how it's ever gone before for them in a spectacularly wild way. You'll hear what I'm talking about. Chris Benderev tells the story.

[Chris Benderev]

Stacey Silberman is a real estate agent in Southern California. And she's well suited to the job because she's excellent at making conversation with strangers about anything. But for the past six and a half years, there's been this classic genre of get to know you banter that's become a lot more complicated for her and her husband Michael. And that's questions about their children.

[Tobin Lowe]

Yes. All the time talking to people, getting introductions. It's always asking about our kids, how many kids do you have? Blah, blah, blah, how old are they?

[Chris Benderev]

The answers to these questions are complicated for Stacy because her older child Max died in 2017.

[Tobin Lowe]

So it has been six and a half years because I have a dot tattoo for every six months.

[Chris Benderev]

This is Stacey's husband Michael, Max's dad. He's a cpa, straight laced kind of guy for the most part.

[Tobin Lowe]

Max always wanted us to get tattoos and we never did.

[Chris Benderev]

And I feel like he already had some. He had some tattoos.

[Tobin Lowe]

He had a wonderful sleeve and lots of tattoos, but so I'm covered in tattoos and my right arm is an entire memorial for Maxie. I've got the kids tattooed up here on my right shoulder.

[Chris Benderev]

So did you have tattoos before he died?

[Stacey Silberman]

No, never. But you know, it's.

[Tobin Lowe]

Tattoos are very interesting thing. It's less than the least it can do, but it does help me through the pain. And tattooing really how I see it from my perspective is just a socially acceptable cutting.

[Chris Benderev]

Max was a funny kid, always loved playing Pranks, who by 15 was struggling with drug addiction, going in and out of treatment. He overdosed when he was 25 in his parents house. And after he died, for a while, Michael and Stacey were around friends and family who knew what had happened. So nobody asked those do you have kids? Sort of questions. But then Stacy traveled to a conference in Albuquerque. She was sitting down for lunch next to a couple friendly blond woman and her husband. They began asking Stacey where she was from and what she did. And then finally those questions.

[Tobin Lowe]

Do you have kids? How old are they? And the woman was, you know, kind of Southern, very sweet, very bubbly. And when people are like that with me, you know, I'm pretty open. And so I felt like being authentic. And I told her, you know, one of my children died of an overdose two years ago, and now I have one.

[Chris Benderev]

This did not go over well.

[Tobin Lowe]

This woman and her husband, it. It really upset them. They couldn't. They just couldn't handle the conversation. I just saw this major pity face with the open mouth and the. Oh, okay.

[Chris Benderev]

And does the conversation with them kind of stall out at that point? And then they kind of totally stall out.

[Tobin Lowe]

They never talk to me again.

[Chris Benderev]

Of course, over time, this happened again and again. Strangers would ask them these sorts of questions, and when they'd answer, it suck all the air out of the room. Which made Michael especially uncomfortable. He never liked sharing this stuff with strangers. He's more of a private person. But together, he and Stacy came up with a strategy for how to handle things.

[Tobin Lowe]

We're out and about, and the question comes up. We sort of look at each other just a little, you know, imperceptibly, so. So nobody could really pick up what's going on. And then usually Stacy will answer however she answers. And I support her unreservedly. A lot of the times, I actually lie. We have two kids, or this is their ages. Talk to you later. And keep it short and sweet, because sometimes the white lie is better for that person because they're at a party, they're out having fun, and they definitely don't want to hear about your dead child.

[Chris Benderev]

And so on they went, answering some questions about their kids and bobbing and weaving around others for six and a half years, until this one day last November, when they got themselves into a situation that was very different from any that they'd been in before and very public. One thing to know about Stacy and Michael is they both spend a lot of their time working at a recovery center for people struggling with addiction. And sometimes they hang out with the other staff and clients there.

[Tobin Lowe]

And so I saw that they were going to a show at the Hollywood Improv where Sarah Silverman was performing. And I'm like, oh, my God, I love Sarah Silverman. I want to go. I want to go. And I said, when we got there, go. I want to sit front row center. I want to get heckled. I want to be right under Sarah Silverman. I want her to, like, heckle me, if possible, or me. I guess we heckle them. I don't know. I just wanted to be a part of it.

[Chris Benderev]

They get seats front row center. But before Sarah Silverman came on stage that night, at the Hollywood Improv, there was this opener, a guy named adam Ray, early 40s, wearing a mariner's cap. And he's got this backing band, drums, keyboard, backup singers. And he ends his set with a song about how all his friends with kids are miserable and boring.

[Tobin Lowe]

Now, a lot of my friends, they have kids. Oh, good for you. Oh, good for you. Who cares? Who care? Who cares?

[Chris Benderev]

But then the song shifts. Adam Ray says, or sings that he and his wife are still deciding about having kids. Suddenly, he turns to the crowd, wants to find someone with kids who can make an argument for having them. Adam starts in the front row with a guy a few seats away from Stacey and Michael.

[Tobin Lowe]

Do you have kids? No.

[Ira Glass]

Hell, yeah.

[Tobin Lowe]

So the minute the word kids came up, I went on high alert.

[Stacey Silberman]

And I just had a feeling, oh.

[Tobin Lowe]

My God, we're sitting in the front row. Is he gonna come to us? Do you have kids? Fuck, no. Somebody stick to this. So I'm nervous because I don't know what I'm gonna say. I don't know how we're gonna deal with it. And remember, we're in a comedy club. And even though Stacy and I subconsciously.

[Stacey Silberman]

Communicate with one another, we can't do.

[Tobin Lowe]

That here in this venue and look at each other and get an idea, you know, what are you thinking?

[Stacey Silberman]

What are you thinking?

[Tobin Lowe]

Without talking? So I'm there sort of in a desert, waiting, and then I saw him coming to me, of course. So he comes to me, you know, hey, do you have any kids? Do you have kids? Damn right I do. That's what I'm talking about.

[Chris Benderev]

Pretty assertive for the guy who doesn't like talking about this.

[Tobin Lowe]

I was thinking about, what Are you fucking. You don't have kids. And you're. That you're probably like, shut the fuck up and get out. Right? You know? So there probably was a little attitude, perhaps, you think.

[Stacey Silberman]

And I figured that would be it.

[Chris Benderev]

But the comedian's not done with him.

[Tobin Lowe]

How many kids do you have? Can you help change our minds today with whatever you say about the blessings the kids come to be? How many kids do you have?

[Emmanuel Joci]

How many kids do you have?

[Stacey Silberman]

How many kids do you have?

[Emmanuel Joci]

Kiss.

[Ira Glass]

Do you have?

[Tobin Lowe]

You have two.

[Chris Benderev]

And he's still not done.

[Tobin Lowe]

You can go back inside your mind. Which one do you want more than the other? Probably not here. So you can say. So you can say which one you forgot the birthday of. You wouldn't mind if they took the bus to Irvine tonight. First of all, how old are your kids? So he finally comes down to me with the microphone. How old are your kids?

[Stacey Silberman]

And that's where I was having difficulty.

[Tobin Lowe]

Calculating, because nobody asks me how old they are typically.

[Stacey Silberman]

So the first thing that went through.

[Tobin Lowe]

My mind was, well, Sabrina's 26. And by that time, I was fucked because there was no time to figure out, so Max is 31. That didn't happen.

[Chris Benderev]

While Michael's thinking, Adam, the comedian keeps holding the microphone, waiting. This dad is taking too long to answer. And then finally, oh, my God.

[Stacey Silberman]

You don't know.

[Tobin Lowe]

Wait a second. You're bringing down the energy of the show with your lack of knowledge of your kids. I felt protective over him in that moment, like, that's a loaded question, and that's why he can't answer you.

[Chris Benderev]

Then the comic turns to Stacy.

[Tobin Lowe]

Here's a mom, mom, how old are the kids? Mom, mom, do you know if you have kids? Dad doesn't know. Dad doesn't know how old his children are. And then I thought to myself, oh, now I've got a Tell the truth. And. And so in a split second, very impulsive moment, I said, I'm sorry to tell you this, but one of our kids is actually dead. I'm sorry to tell you, but one is actually dead. What the. Oh, my God. Oh, R. Taking a sip of my.

[Chris Benderev]

Cassie Azul on stage, no one quite knows what to do. One of the backup singers puts her hands over her face. The keyboard player just shakes his head like, no.

[Tobin Lowe]

And then I realized, like, oh, I just screwed the show. Well, I'm so sorry. Wow. All right. The song has taken a turn.

[Chris Benderev]

This moment for the comedian seems pretty insurmountable, right? Like, what could he possibly do to save a set? After that, I called him up, Adam Ray. And he said he considered changing the subject, but chose not to.

[Tobin Lowe]

Well, don't have kids.

[Ira Glass]

Don't know what I'm saying.

[Tobin Lowe]

Okay.

[Chris Benderev]

And finally, it's actually Stacey who saves the day. She motions for Adam, the comedian. He bends down and points his mic at her. And then she says, I'm dead, son.

[Tobin Lowe]

I think this is hilarious. I said, our dead son would think this was hilarious. That's the best compliment I've ever received. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Dead double dad. It wasn't a lie at all. Our dead son would have thought this was hilarious. He would have been like, oh, my God. Of course my mom stepped in a big pile of.

[Chris Benderev]

Then Adam gets an idea.

[Tobin Lowe]

What's the name of your son who's passed on? His name was Max. Let's give it up for Max right now. Give it up for Max right now. Give it up for Max right now. Yeah, give it up. A match right now. Yeah, give it up a match right now. Yeah, give it up. Ax baby. You guys are amazing. Thank you so much.

[Chris Benderev]

On Saturday, the video of Adam set actually made the rounds on TikTok and Instagram. Afterward, Stacey says she read every last comment. All these people rejoicing for and remembering her son.

[Tobin Lowe]

I've listened to that thing like a hundred times, I think as I keep enjoying it. I mean, it was like, it was incredible. Just was an incredible moment in time.

[Chris Benderev]

Lots of people have asked them questions, putting them in this complicated spot. But this time in front of all those people that ended with a room full of strangers cheering for Max. This time is their favorite.

[Ira Glass]

Chris Penderev. Coming up, a question about a 400-year-old play and the personal question underneath that question. That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues. This message comes from Apple Card. If you love iPhone, you'll love Apple Card. It comes with the privacy and security you expect from Apple. Plus, you earn up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase, which can automatically earn interest when you open a high Yield Savings account through Apple Card. Apply for Apple Card in the Wallet app subject to credit approval. Savings is available to Apple Card owners subject to eligibility. Apple Card and Savings by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch Member FDIC terms and [e-mail] this message comes from Capital One. Say hello to stress free subscription management.

[Emmanuel Joci]

Easily track block or cancel recurring charges.

[Ira Glass]

Right from the Capital One mobile app.

[Tobin Lowe]

Simple as that.

[Ira Glass]

Learn [e-mail] Subscriptions Terms and Conditions apply. Support for this American Life comes from Capella University. Learning doesn't have to get in the way of life. With Capella's game changing Flexpath learning format, you can set your own deadlines and learn on your own schedule. That means you don't have to put your life on hold to earn your degree. Instead, enjoy learning your way and pursue your educational and career goals without missing a beat. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn [e-mail]. this is American Life. I'm Ira Glass. Today's program, the Question Trap. What we're talking about today is those questions that can seem benevolent, innocent, harmless, innocuous, could not hurt a fly. But underneath, they're really asking something else or quietly making a point about something else. We've arrived at question three of our program. Question three how's your Mom. So we spotted this next thing we want to play you in an academic journal. It was originally a paper in Medical Anthropology Quarterly written by an anthropologist named Janelle Taylor, who adapted it to read here on the radio. This one question that Jenelle Taylor is writing about. It kept showing up all the time in her personal life. And she says, as an anthropologist, she knows when lots of people are asking the same question over and over, it means something. And she wrote this essay to think through what is underneath that question.

[Emmanuel Joci]

My mother is living with progressive dementia. Because I'm reading these words on the radio, I can't hear your response, but I'm listening for the question that, as I've learned, always comes. Everyone, almost without exception, responds with some version of the same question. Does she recognize you? There are variants, of course. Does she still know who you are? But does she still know your name? However it may be phrased, the question is always whether my mother recognizes me, meaning, can she recite the facts of who I am, what my name is, and how I'm related to her? When everyone keeps asking me, does she recognize you? I find myself thinking, that is the wrong question. I believe the question really is or should be, do you? Do we recognize her as a person who's still here? Does she recognize you? The weirdness of the question becomes more obvious if you think about what would be required to answer it. Let's say I asked my mother, what's my name? Who am I? How old am I? How do we know each other? Testing her that way. What does it prove? What does it actually accomplish? I read a book by a journalist named Lauren Kessler. She wrote about how she would correct her own mother when her mother called her by the wrong name. Every time she would visit her mother, she'd take framed photos from the dresser and point to them and quiz her mother. You know who this is, don't you, Mom? Of course she didn't. Kessler writes. So I told her again and again, each visit who was who, and then quizzed again. Thinking back on this now, I am appalled at my insensitivity. What did I think I was doing? I managed to accomplish only two things. I made myself miserable, and I made my mother irritable. I don't need my mother to tell me my name or how I'm related to her. I already know these things, and I know that she has dementia. So why then would I make a point of asking her these questions that I know she can't possibly answer? It seems rude or just mean I can't bring myself to do it. I guess you could say that my mother raised me better than that. Does she recognize you? I'm not so convinced that the inability to remember names necessarily means that a person with dementia can't recognize or care about other people. But very often it does mean that other people stop recognizing and caring about them. My mother was close to lots of people, but only one friend remains present in her life. Every month or two, Eli Davis drives an hour and a half from her home to Seattle to visit mom, bringing treats and hugs and her always cheerful self. I love her dearly for it. And I wonder, where are the others? Where are the couples with whom my parents socialized, the women with whom mom spent hours and hours on the phone all through my childhood? This shouldn't surprise me as much as it has. Maybe it's not fair to expect friends to step up. Even close family drop off friendships in America are not usually expected to survive dementia. Friendships are often more like pleasure crafts than life rafts, not built to brave the really rough waters. Does she recognize you? When people ask me whether my mother still recognizes me, they're often expressing concern for me, asking me how I'm bearing up under the burden of suffering that her dementia must place on me. And they're quite ready to hear about my burdens and my suffering. What they find harder to hear, I think, is that being around my mother is not a nightmare or a horror. It's not like any of that. Here's what it is. In a cafe, as we share a scone, mom and I make what passes for conversation. I've learned to ask only the sort of question that doesn't require any specific information to answer. So, things going okay with you these days? How's my favorite mom doing? You doing all right? I tell her funny little stories about my kids. Sometimes we leaf through a magazine, looking at the pictures and commenting on them. Sometimes we look out the window and I make general observations that require no specific response. Looks like spring is coming. Look at those leaves coming out on the trees. That guy's hair is really curly. With each exchange, mom smiles at me, beaming affectionately in that familiar, slightly conspiratorial way, as if if we're both in on the same joke. So our conversations go nowhere. But it doesn't matter what we say, really, or whether we said it before, or whether it's accurate or interesting or even comprehensible. The exchange is the point. Mom and I are playing catch with touches, smiles and gestures as well as words, lobbing them back and forth to each other in slow, easy underhand arcs. The fact that she drops the ball more and more often doesn't stop the game from being enjoyable. It's a way of being together. Does she recognize you? She may not recognize me in a narrowly cognitive sense, but my mom does recognize me as someone who's there with her, someone familiar, perhaps, and she doesn't need to have all the details sorted out in order to care for me. The impulse to care, the habit of caring these are things that run deep in my mother, someone who for most of her life was very engaged in caring for other people. Her children, her husband, her grandchildren, her friends. Even some of the behavioral quirks that my mom has developed make sense to me in those terms as expressions of care. Here's an example. People with dementia often engage in repetitive behaviors, and mom is no exception. When I take her out to a cafe, I usually get a cup of black coffee for myself and order a cup of hot chocolate for her. Not too hot, and don't forget the whipped cream on top. As we drink them, she checks constantly to see whether my cup and hers are even, whether the liquids have been drunk down to the same level, and if not, she'll hurry up and drink more to catch up or else stop and wait for me. Or if we share a cookie, she's concerned to make sure that the halves be the same size and that we eat them at the same rate. I think keeping track of whether our drinks and cookies are even comes naturally to my mother, a woman who has always had to carefully divide quite limited resources, first with her own brothers and later among her four children. She's cared about such details all her life, and caring about them was also a way in which she cared for other people. Mom also does still take care of me in some small but important ways. One time, a little more than a year ago, I stopped by the assisted living facility where she was living at the end of a very busy day and an especially hectic week. I had stayed up very late the night before, trying to finish grading student papers, then spent the whole day teaching and in meetings. I went with her up to her room. I turned on the TV and we sat down together on the couch. I was exhausted. I leaned back and yawned. Mom patted my hand and said to me, you're tired. Just go ahead and sleep. You can just lay down right here. And so I sat there next to my mom, holding her hand, feeling her warmth against me all along one side of my body, and I leaned my head on her shoulder and slept. Does she recognize you? For a while. After we first moved my mother into an assisted living facility, she often said that she wanted to go home. I understood this to mean that she wanted to move back to the house where she had lived for 40 years until my father's death, the house in which I grew up. Usually I responded with my own mild version of reality orientation, explaining as gently as possible that that house was all empty and cold now and nobody was there to keep her company or help her do stuff. So it was probably better to stay here. One time, though, I asked her a question instead. You mean home to the house up in Edmonds? No, on the farm, she answered. You go down. With her raised arm, she traced out the curve of a long ago road. For the first few years of her life, my mother had lived on a small farm in southern Idaho before her father moved the family to Seattle during World War II to seek work on the docks. They're inside there, she added. Who? I asked. My mom and my dad. My mother's in her 70s. Her parents are not waiting for her inside an Idaho farmhouse. You could use that evidence to draw a clear line between us. Me here on the side of reality, competence, personhood, recognition. Her over there on the side of delusion, incapacity. Not quite fully human. But what she was longing for was her childhood home. She missed her mom and dad. She was trying in her own way to hold on to them, just as I was trying, against the odds to hold on to her. Our predicament is exactly the same.

[Ira Glass]

Janelle Taylor. She's a professor at the University of Toronto, teaching medical anthropology. Her mom, Charlene Taylor, died in 2019. Janelle is collecting this essay and others she's written about dementia into a book. You can find a link to the original academic article that she wrote at our website. Doug Poor Can I help you? Okay, here's one last example of a question that has another question lurking behind it. The question goes like this. If Matthew scored an average of 15 points per basketball game and played 24 games in one season, how many points did he score in the season? That's a question from the shsat, which is a standardized test given to middle school students in New York City. A high score on the SHSAT will get you into one of the eight top public schools in the city, wonderful schools. A low score will keep you in the regular public school system, where your school may be assigned by lottery. So the question lurking behind that math question is, are you good enough? Are you good enough to go to the best schools and Maybe from there to the best colleges and from there to all the advantages you get from that kind of education, including a higher income, maybe a better job, all other sorts of stuff. Kind of a big scary chasm opening up in the earth behind that innocent little math problem. For five years, Milo Kramer tutored kids who wanted to leap over that chasm and into those eight elite high schools. At first it made Milo feel good.

[Stacey Silberman]

Because I thought I was helping children. And I only gradually came to understand that I was really just a fucked up cog in a larger fucked up system.

[Ira Glass]

This recording is from a one person show that Milo did this fall about the kids they tutored. I worry a little that it's going to be hard to get across over the radio. What's so special about this show? Most of it is songs, songs about the kids that Milo tutored. These very funny and heartbreaking portraits of these middle school and high school kids and Milo's relationship to them. Like, for example, the boy who takes a lot of pleasure denouncing God and the Democrats.

[Stacey Silberman]

Jason's 16 and he proudly identifies as Libertarian. He's a 16 year old Libertarian. I'm kind of a.

[Ira Glass]

Milo is not a great singer. They would tell you that themselves or a Scope musician. But they've written songs in secret since they were the age that these kids are that they're writing about. And there's just something in the intentional roughness and sincerity of what they're doing. It kind of matches the rawness of these kids and their feelings and of Milo's reactions to them. When a girl from Queens named Dana, who's better at math than Milo and probably should be a scientist or engineer someday, tells Milo that if she does end up in college, she wants to study theater. Milo, who's broke and struggling and wanting to do theater, sings, I want to.

[Stacey Silberman]

Tell her not to. I want to tell her not to. You cannot study theater. You have to study math. You're good at math, you're failing math.

[Tobin Lowe]

You want to study theater.

[Stacey Silberman]

Theater doesn't matter.

[Tobin Lowe]

There's a pandemic.

[Ira Glass]

Lots of the songs in the show are about the kids. Anxieties about school and this test and all the pressure they feel from their parents. And they're about Milo trying to figure out not just how to teach them, but what they possibly could say to comfort them. Faith, for example, is a terrible reader.

[Stacey Silberman]

Faith says, I think I'm stupid. I can't read. I guess I'm stupid. I get I must be stupid. I say, I don't think you're stupid. Faith repeats, I'm sure I'm stupid. If you think I'm smart, please prove it. I tell her intelligence is unmeasurable and different in every individual. Faith just looks at me and says, no. I say, yes. She says, no. She says, no, no, no, no. I say, hey, when I was your age, my mom hid all my report cards from me. When I asked her what my grades were, she always told me, you're right where you should be. You're right where you should be.

[Ira Glass]

Our radio show today is about questions. And to close out the show, I'm just gonna put you one more thing. This is one full song from Milo's show about a question that a student faced. It's an essay question.

[Stacey Silberman]

Divya has to respond to the question is Shakespeare's oath fellow racist in a five paragraph essay for her white teacher by Monday. And she says, just tell me the answer, please. I have so much homework this week. I need to get this done as fast as possible. Is Othello racist, yes or no? I'm like, have you read the play? She's like, yes. And I watched the Laurence Fishburne movie. I'm like, great. So what do you think? She's like, I don't know. I'm 15. I'm afraid to say the wrong thing. I'm like, same. This stuff is hard to talk about, but you've gotta trust yourself. Even though you've also gotta constantly question and interrogate yourself. Either way, you've gotta try. You've gotta try. You've gotta try, try, try, try, try. I'm desperate to do a good job. Divya's Indian American mom can hear us in the next room. I do not know what to do. Divya looks at the assignment rubric to see how she'll be graded. She needs a clear, defensible thesis followed by three unique body paragraphs. I can tell she's overwhelmed. I say, remember, grades don't matter, Divya. Learning can't be measured. Just trust how you feel you did. She says, maybe grades don't matter if you're rich, but in my family, grades are so important. I think I thought at first that Divya didn't have the words to talk about the play in any nuanced way. But now I start to think that her understanding is deeper than my own. And she. She might never talk to me about Othello honestly and shouldn't have to. Finally, I decide she just wants me to provide her with some easy answer to satisfy her teacher and get her through the semester unscathed. So I'm like, okay, your teacher is either looking for an essay that's like, yes, Othello is very racist. The story of the play is there's this super professionally and romantically successful black man all of these white guys are jealous of and cannot handle. That tension is resolved when the white guys trick Othello into murdering his wife, thereby turning him into the brutish stereotype they wanted him to be all along. That the title role was performed in blackface four centuries underscores this. Moreover, that's a good. That's kind of a transition word, Divya. Moreover, that is. My next body paragraph will be about moreover. Desdemona's whiteness, in contrast, is repeatedly presented as innately good, innocent, and desirable. That's one essay you could write that would get an A. The other essay you could write that would also get an A, goes, no, Othello is not super racist. Othello is a flawed attempt at anti racism in that it's Shakespeare's only play to center a dynamic black protagonist. The play was banned in apartheid South Africa for depicting an interracial relationship. Moreover, the play's most prejudiced characters are always presented as either stupid Rodrigo or evil Iago. It would be a mistake to conflate the perspectives of these characters with the meanings of the work as a whole. Either of those essays would get A's, Divya. But what your teacher's reductive yes or no prompt does not allow for is an essay that's like what I think. I think, which is something like, Othello is a product and reflection of another culture. Elizabethan England, 400 years old. Written at a time when race was just being invented as a system of power, the play later became a cultural export of the British Empire, which colonized black and brown people around the world. The play remains a bestseller of the Shakespeare industrial complex. In other words, Divya, Othello and racism are so indelibly linked. That the question, is Othello racist? Seems to confuse both what racism is and what artworks are. In my opinion, what's really racist, Divya, is that we are required to read Othello for the billionth time. That it's on the curriculum at your Brooklyn public high school. Even though the play is is boring when we could be reading any number of contemporary black playwrights, Divya responds, don't hate me, but I kinda liked reading Othello. The story is really crazy and the language is really pretty.

[Ira Glass]

Milo Kramer, in the one person Show School Pictures recorded at Playwrights Horizons in New York City. School Pictures is running at theater La T? Da in Minneapolis from February 5th to March 2nd. It's going to come back to New York in the fall. If you want to hear more songs from the show or book the show for your town, go to milo kramer.com that's Kramer with a C milocramer.com.

[Tobin Lowe]

I got ideas but I don't know at all and when I speak you know.

[Emmanuel Joci]

My voice is small and when I'm.

[Ira Glass]

Walking down the street I never smile at folks I meet Cause I know.

[Tobin Lowe]

They won't smile at me now ask yourself why this should be but if you want the answer if you want.

[Ira Glass]

The answers don't ask me where Bourbon was produced today by Zoe Chase. The people who put together today's show include Jandari Bonds, Sean Cole, Michael Comite, Bethel, Hapti Hanajampi, Walt, Catherine Raimondo, Stone Nelson, Safiya Riddle, Lily Sullivan, Princess Swanson, Christopher Sutala, Marisa Robertson, Textra, Matt Tierney, Nancy Updike, Julie Whitaker and Diane Wu. Our managing editor, Saurabh Abdurrahman. Our senior editor is David Kestenbaum. Our executive editor is Emanuel Berry. Help on today's rerun from Henry Larson and Angela Girpasi. Original music for the comedian story by Ryan Rummery, who also helped mix the show. Special thanks today to Lauren Kessler. Her book is Finding Life in the Land of Alzheimer's. Also thanks to Galia Walt, Michael Rosenthal, Diana Taylor, William Mike Taylor, Pat Taylor, David Johnson, Rachel Jackson, Tom O'Keefe and Jolie Myers. This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by prx, the Public Radio Exchange. Just a quick word about our Life Partner subscription program. We continue to make bonus episodes for it. The latest one this week. I went back to listen for the first time in decades to one of the original pilots for our show. Two co workers, Julie Snyder and Aviva de Kornfeld, listened with me. It was so much less good than I thought it was going to be. I really was surprised with this pilot. It was fascinating and sobering. If you want to hear that bonus episode and hear that pilot episode of this American Life, or if you want to hear any of the bonus content we've been making, become a life partner. When you sign up. You also get an archive of greatest hits episodes that just kind of show up in your podcast feed. And of course, your help keeps our program on the air when you sign up. To join, go to ThisAmericanLife.org LifePartners. That link is also in the show notes to this episode. Thanks as always to our program's co founder, Ms. Tory Malatea. You know, he kind of hurt my feelings this morning. Ran into each other. He asked, how am I doing? I started to answer. Then he was like, who cares?

[Tobin Lowe]

Who cares? Who cares?

[Ira Glass]

I'm Eric Glass. Back next week with more stories of this American Life. Next week on the podcast of this American Life. So he's moving now. The guy in the white car's moving. Bob's moving.

[Tobin Lowe]

You'll all be able to put your.

[Ira Glass]

Cars right down there on a narrow street in Brooklyn. One neighbor takes it on himself to get everybody to move their cars two times a week. When the street cleaner comes through, he does. This. Week in, week out, we hear about that and about other people who choose to live in their own ever repeating Groundhog Days for Groundhog Day. Next week on the podcast on your local public radio station.

[Tobin Lowe]

This message comes from homes.com the right agent can make or break your home search. That's why homes.com provides an agent directory that details each agent's experience so you can find the right one and ultimately the right home. Homes.com we've done your homework.