This American Life - Episode 872: "Winners"

Air date: November 2, 2025
Host: Ira Glass
Featured reporting: Chana Joffe-Walt, Diane Wu

Episode Overview

This episode explores the idea of "winners": What does it mean to see yourself as a winner—especially in tough, unpredictable circumstances? The journalists turn their focus from the internal "winner mentality" that guides those who make the show, to an unprecedented situation: white South Africans (mostly Afrikaners) offered US refugee status under a new Trump administration executive order. Through personal stories and investigative reporting, the episode examines who really wins in America today, the unexpected consequences of government action, and a community remaking itself around a radical new hope.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The "Winner Mentality" at This American Life

(00:24–06:32)

• Ira Glass opens with the revelation that he constantly tells his team, “Let's win. We're winners. We can do this.” For some staff, this is uplifting; for others, it’s baffling or even frustrating.
  • “He kind of gives you this look, and he’s like ‘No, you’re a winner.’ You know? Like how in Harry Potter, they’re just like, ‘You’re a wizard.’” – Nadia, 01:13.
• Diane Wu and others share mixed feelings about "winner talk." Some find it motivating, some find it problematic or alienating, painting the office culture as split between self-identified “winners” and “losers.”
• The conversation expands on how deeply American this winner mentality is, referencing cultural icons like Muhammad Ali and Simone Biles.

2. Winners of an Unexpected Policy: South African White Refugee Program

(08:50–56:51)
Act One: “Winners Welcome” by Chana Joffe-Walt

a) The Executive Order and Its Intent

(08:50–12:35)

• The story kicks off when President Trump issues Executive Order 14204, highlighting the “egregious actions” against Afrikaners (white South Africans) and offering them US refugee status.
• The white minority community in South Africa (notably Orania) is stunned by the news. While some Afrikaners like UST Strydum experience a sense of validation, they reject the idea of being “refugees,” preferring to remain in Africa.
  • “Afrikaners belong in Africa. We don’t want to be refugees. We want to be here. The Afrikaners are a specific group with a proud history.” – UST Strydum, 12:35.

b) Afrikaner Identity, History and “Persecution”

(12:48–16:48)

• The episode offers essential history: Afrikaners led South Africa’s apartheid system. Post-1994, as a small minority, they have lost much political influence but retain significant economic power.
• Affirmative action and property reforms in South Africa are causing resistance and fueling perceptions of reverse discrimination within some white communities.

c) Immediate Community Response

(15:34–16:48)

• Afrikaner advocacy groups collectively thank the US for its recognition but publicly decline the offer to resettle as refugees (“Help us here”), aiming for pressure on South Africa, not emigration.

d) The "Other" Winners: Enter Sam Busa and Americaners

(16:51–31:38)

• Sam Busa, a white South African businesswoman of British descent, is enthusiastic about moving to America under the executive order.
• Sam rapidly educates herself on US refugee law, deciphers the ambiguities in the order ("discrimination" vs "persecution"), and launches a website and Facebook group (“Americaners”) to help others. She addresses common anxieties (do English-speaking whites qualify, age limits, pet policies, etc.).
  • “What does an American think the word Afrikaner means?” – Sam Busa, 25:29.
• The group’s work is both technical (interpreting legal terms, vetting eligibility) and emotional (navigating shame, identity). Sam collects signatures on her memorandum to Trump, stating: “We accept your offer. We will come to contribute, not to drain.” (31:38)

e) The First Refugees Arrive, the Optics Shift

(32:11–39:06)

• The first group of white South African refugees (59 people) is welcomed in a high-profile ceremony in Washington, D.C.
  • “Welcome to the United States of America. That flag symbolizes liberty for so many of us . . . we respect what you’ve had to deal with . . .” – DHS official, 33:02.
• Chana Joffe-Walt reflects on the symbolism: America, by prioritizing this group, reframes South Africa from a rainbow nation of reconciliation to a warning against overreaching racial equity.
  • “These photos ... are like a reset. South Africa is a cautionary tale. ... This is our new refugee policy.” – Chana, 35:49.
• Stephen Miller (Trump advisor) claims this fits the “textbook definition” of the refugee program—though Joffe-Walt counters that other approved refugees are being pushed aside for this new group.

f) Two Schools of Thought: Pessimism and Relentless Hope

(38:34–39:06)

• While Chana doubts the scope of the new program will expand, Sam is unwavering in her belief that thousands more will be able to emigrate.

3. Consequences and Fallout in South Africa

(41:19–53:03)

a) American Reception & Support

(41:19–43:34)

• Sam Busa is overwhelmed by offers of support from Americans, including accommodation and business connections.
  • “We are so excited to join your society. I can’t explain.” – Sam, 43:15.

b) South African Backlash

(43:39–48:24)

• The program draws criticism and mockery back home. South African President Cyril Ramaphosa calls the emigres “cowards.”
• Media, comedians, and public figures like Trevor Noah lampoon the idea of Afrikaners as persecuted refugees.
  • “You’re not refugees. ... You’re scared of a world where you don’t get to be in charge.” – Social media, 45:22.

c) Social Stigma and "Underground" Services

(48:24–52:07)

• Sam describes being shunned by businesses and having to organize an “underground network” for moving services, legal advice, and financial transitions for those preparing to leave.
  • “We’re a very, very hated class in South Africa right now. Hated, hated, hated.” – Sam, 48:24.
• She draws parallels between Americaners’ solidarity and the U.S. MAGA movement: "It's akin to your MAGA, on a tiny scale." (51:29)

d) Identity Transformed

(52:07–53:03)

• For Sam and other members, even the possibility of leaving redefines their identities and sense of purpose.
  • “It's given me a newfound purpose...you take something on and it actually works.” – Sam, 52:45.

4. “Winning” in Practice: Policy Becomes Reality

(53:03–56:51)

• Within seven months, “Americaners” becomes an official referral partner for the U.S. Refugee Admissions Program.
• To qualify:
  • Applicants must be from a racial minority in South Africa (excluding black people).
  • No need for documentation of past persecution; fear (e.g., the “Kill the boer” chant) qualifies.
  • Applicants don’t have to leave their homes to be processed.
• The reporting reveals how agile, motivated individuals like Sam—outside government—can turn bureaucratic gestures into life-changing wins.

Notable Quote:

• “When the administration issued this executive order, this wasn’t the plan. They didn’t know Sam was out there. She didn’t know they were going to do this. But once the opportunity existed, there was Sam willing to work with what was there to make this a reality, to turn it into a win.” – Chana, 56:22.

5. The Broader Implications

(56:51–end)

• The Trump administration sets the official refugee admissions ceiling at just 7,500—a record low—and almost exclusively for South Africans.
• The episode closes reflecting on how “winner” status is not just about personal mentality, but also about the structures and serendipity of policy—who gets recognized, who is facilitated, and at what cost.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On motivating coworkers:
  “Let's win. We're winners. We're winners. We can do this.” – Ira Glass, 01:28
• On American “winner” identity:
  “It is nonetheless true. Deciding you're a winner ... has a power. It creates possibilities.” – Ira Glass, 06:32
• On public symbolism:
  “South Africa is a cautionary tale. ... A rainbow nation only ends in disaster. The photo op communicates something else, too. It says, look, this is our new refugee policy.” – Chana Joffe-Walt, 35:49
• On reversal of fortune:
  “We're a very, very hated class in South Africa right now. Hated, hated, hated.” – Sam Busa, 48:24
• On newfound identity:
  “It’s given me a newfound purpose. ... You take something on and it actually works.” – Sam Busa, 52:45

Important Timestamps

• 00:24–06:32: Show intro – “winner” mentality at This American Life, staff reactions
• 08:50–12:35: Introduction of Trump executive order regarding South African Afrikaners
• 15:34–16:48: Afrikaner groups' initial response (“Help us here”)
• 16:51–31:38: Sam Busa’s story; organizing “Americaners”
• 32:11–39:06: First white South African refugees arrive in D.C.; symbolic ramifications; internal U.S. government logic
• 41:19–43:34: American support for refugees
• 43:39–48:24: South African domestic reaction, ridicule, and political fallout
• 48:24–52:07: Social stigma, covert support services, community formation
• 53:03–56:51: Americaners becomes official; mechanics and eligibility for the new refugee pathway
• 56:51–end: Policy outcomes and closing reflections

Summary Takeaways

• This episode charts the unpredictable paths to becoming a “winner”—sometimes via inspirational mantras, but more often through the willingness to seize uncertain or unintended opportunities.
• In a political era defined by sweeping gestures and loose policy details, regular individuals can become pivotal actors in determining who gets ahead—or who gets left behind.
• The American “winner” identity, whether personal or national, is ultimately a deeply complicated, double-edged sword, carrying hope, controversy, symbolism, and real human cost.