874: Under One Roof

Summary

Podcast Summary: This American Life Episode 874 – "Under One Roof"

Date: November 16, 2025
Host: Ira Glass
Featured Producers and Guests: Valerie Kipnes, Heather Gay & her family, the Rivera family

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Overview

This episode of This American Life, titled "Under One Roof," delves into the complex dynamics of families living together while experiencing and perceiving the same events in radically different ways. Through deeply personal stories—one about a former Mormon mother leading a double life, and another about a mixed-status immigrant family facing the threat of self-deportation—the episode explores secrets, misunderstandings, unspoken fears, and the divergent perspectives coexisting under a single roof.

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ACT 1: Secrets, Perceptions, and Coffee – The Story of Heather Gay (00:29–18:42)

Key Discussion Points and Insights

• Heather's Double Life Post-Divorce (00:29–04:50):

  • Heather Gay, raised Mormon, struggles to maintain the image of the perfect churchgoing family after divorcing her husband. She continues many Mormon practices for her daughters' sake while secretly breaking core church rules (drinking coffee, alcohol, and dating).
  • She describes living in fear of being discovered and the ease with which lying became second nature to navigate church and family scrutiny.
  • Quote (Heather): "You just learn to lie so easily and so quickly." (01:41)

• Hiding Subtle Acts of Rebellion (04:50–06:49):

  • Heather describes how she hid evidence of her forbidden behaviors—keeping vodka in a closet, hiding coffee pods in a Cheez-Its box, and making excuses for having a Keurig in the house ("for cocoa for the kids").

• Distinct Memories: Heather vs. Her Daughters (07:10–13:50):

  • Ira interviews Heather's daughter, Ashley, who reveals SHE was the one who bought the Keurig for her mother, fully aware it would be used for coffee—a fact Heather does not remember.
  • Ashley’s experience: seeing families outside Mormonism as more relaxed and wanting the same for her own family. She recognizes and accepts her mother's need to rebel quietly.
  • Contrasts between sisters: Ashley knew about her mother’s coffee drinking, while Georgia, the youngest, was unaware and "mind blown" to learn about it. This highlights differing realities within the same household.
  • Quote (Ashley): "Like me buying her a Keurig, I think she kind of thought, oh my gosh, like, Ashley understands me." (09:02)

• Breaking the Silence—Confronting Misunderstandings (14:02–16:39):

  • Ashley tells her mother the truth about the Keurig gift, leading to an emotional revelation for both—Ashley gave her permission, but Heather was too afraid to see it.
  • Quote (Heather): "It feels like you're kind of giving me permission to, you know, be myself." (14:28)
  • The family comes to recognize how acts meant as connection or rebellion were misinterpreted as isolation or secrecy.

• The Aftermath and Reflection (16:40–18:42):

  • As a "Real Housewife of Salt Lake City," Heather’s story plays out publicly, but her daughters admit they always saw themselves as a rule-bending Mormon family.
  • Ira wraps up: "People in the same family, people who live under the same roof, can see things so radically differently. Even simple things like a coffee maker." (16:51)

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ACT 2: Self-Deportation, Divided Loyalties – The Rivera Family (18:42–64:07)

Key Discussion Points and Insights

• Eavesdropping on Parental Anxiety (18:42–21:39):

  • Mackenzie (17) and Bella (15) describe overhearing tense discussions about their father Fidel’s possible self-deportation after Trump wins re-election, breaking the family’s usual harmony.
  • The girls cope by eavesdropping and distracting themselves, showing how children internalize but rarely discuss family strife.

• Family Background: Legal Limbo and Stress (21:39–24:46):

  • Jenny (mom, US citizen) describes constant anxiety over Fidel’s lack of legal status; he cannot get citizenship through her unless he leaves for 10 years.
  • Since Trump’s second term begins, Jenny insists they have to make a concrete plan, while Fidel remains optimistic, believing nothing will change.

• Tension Escalates, Roles and Coping Mechanisms (24:46–34:59):

  • Jenny compulsively prepares documentation ("emergency binders") in case Fidel is detained; Fidel feels hurt, as though his wife is prepping for his exit.
  • The girls align with their dad—his attitude is comforting, implying nothing needs to change.
  • Quote (Fidel): "My wife is driving me nuts. ... But, like I said, we are totally different persons." (25:57)

• Adolescence and Dread (34:59–38:45):

  • The girls recall discovering their father’s undocumented status ("the situation") in 2020, trying to hide their distress by not talking about it with friends or even amongst themselves.
  • Quote (Mackenzie): "We try to, like, avoid it in conversations... we're gonna sit there and be sad." (36:15)

• The Inside-Out Quinceañera Decision (38:45–39:50):

  • Bella decides not to have a quinceañera since she can’t bear the thought of her father’s likely absence. This underscores how dread of separation infiltrates everyday and celebratory decisions.
  • Quote (Bella): "I don't want a Kinsei without him." (39:01)

• Stalemate and Shift—The Family Reaches a Breaking Point (41:52–47:26):

  • Spring brings a rare shouting match between the parents, overheard by the girls, signalling something has changed.
  • ICE activity ramps up regionally. Fidel finally acknowledges the real threat and agrees he should leave.
  • Quote (Fidel): "I think my wife is right... I need to like, change, change my switch." (45:52)

• Decision Day: What Do the Kids Want? (51:02–55:23):

  • At a family meeting, Jenny proposes moving everyone to Mexico. Mackenzie resists ("I don't want to leave"), Bella is passive but supportive, and Fidel wishes they could all just go together.
  • Quote (Mackenzie): "This is my last year at the school. You're not giving me enough time. ... I just want it to stay how it is." (52:17)

• Countdown and Processing the Loss (56:06–59:54):

  • As the departure date nears, the girls and Fidel struggle to accept the imminent separation. Both mourn the lost time and grapple with guilt and regret about what more they could have done together.
  • Quote (Mackenzie): "It's like he's just gonna disappear." (57:06)

• Preparing for the Absence, New Realities (60:07–62:55):

  • Fidel gives the girls last-minute life lessons, feeling both angry and sad. Jenny braces for single parenthood and emotional isolation, while the girls resolve to distract themselves with sports and friends.
  • Quote (Jenny): "I love my husband. He has a lot of great qualities, but... it's a hundred percent, 100% gonna suck for the next five years." (61:18)

• Fidel's Exit: On His Own Terms (62:55–64:07):

  • Fidel refuses the Trump administration’s self-deportation incentive, preferring to leave "through the front door, not the back door." The family throws him a farewell party, complete with a Trump piñata, which Bella gleefully finishes off.
  • Quote (Fidel): "I live happy. I leave my family happy." (63:08)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "You just learn to lie so easily and so quickly."
  – Heather Gay (01:41)
• "I just understood her, you know, I could see that it just wasn't her, you know, that she wanted something different."
  – Ashley (Heather’s daughter) (13:50)
• "It's love. It's. I don't know, it's annoying to them, but it's love."
  – Fidel Rivera, on teasing his daughters (28:32)
• "I don't want a Kinsei without him."
  – Bella Rivera (39:01)
• "I'm not going to be in one of that places. That is my switch."
  – Fidel Rivera, on detention centers (46:10)
• "I think my only way to spend my time is working. Like work the most I can... so I don't need to be alone and I don't need to be be depressed."
  – Fidel Rivera (61:54)
• "Through the front door, not the back door. You know, I can live in my own terms. I live happy. I leave my family happy."
  – Fidel Rivera (62:55)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:29–13:50: Heather Gay, her hidden double life, and her daughters' differing memories
• 13:50–18:42: The family unites over revelations about the Keurig and their "bending-the-rules" Mormon identity
• 18:42–24:46: Background of the Rivera family, legal limbo, and immigration anxiety
• 24:46–34:59: The emotional fallout for parents and daughters, and secret family coping mechanisms
• 39:01–39:50: Bella cancels quinceañera, reflecting the dread of loss
• 41:52–47:26: Stalemate, family yelling, and Fidel’s decision to leave
• 51:02–55:23: Family meeting: should they move together or not?
• 56:06–59:54: The daughters process their sadness and regret
• 60:07–62:55: Preparing for life after Fidel leaves; Jenny and the kids adjust
• 62:55–64:07: Fidel’s farewell party, leaving on his terms

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Tone and Style

The episode is intimate, at times funny, heart-wrenching, and always honest. Family members speak candidly, revealing the silent burdens they’ve carried and the ways those burdens create parallel narratives within a shared household. Ira Glass’ narration is warm and curious, approaching each family’s struggle with empathy and gentle humor. The guests’ voices, especially the teenagers, are endearingly frank and true to their ages.

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Closing Reflection

"Under One Roof" masterfully captures the way secrets, love, fear, and hope can all live together in a household—sometimes in silence, sometimes in confrontation, always shaping the stories we tell about ourselves and one another. Whether it's the smell of illicit coffee or the looming threat of forced separation, every family faces their own version of divergent realities—often without even realizing it.

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Transcript

[Sponsor/Announcer]

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[Ira Glass]

Hi, everybody. Ira here. My voice is weird today. I feel fine. Heather loved being Mormon, so she and her husband split up. After that, she says people in the church treated her and her kids differently. She realized she would never have the perfect Mormon family. She was still a believer, but she started secretly doing things that members of the church aren't supposed to do. She slept with men she wasn't married to. She drank. But on the surface, she kept up appearances, lived a double life for years before she quit the church. A double life with occasional moments where she thought she might get found out.

[Heather Gay]

You know, as a Mormon person, you're not supposed to drink coffee. And that seems fairly innocuous, fairly simple, but I was slipping. And I was drinking coffee, and I had gotten myself a coffee before. I picked up my kids from school, and they were young enough that they wouldn't understand or get it. And. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. And my friend saw me and, like, waved and started to walk over to the car.

[Ira Glass]

Saw you come out of a coffee shop?

[Heather Gay]

Nope. She just saw me in the car pool line standing there. But I had a hot coffee in my car and it was fall, and that meant, like, if I unrolled the window, the smell of coffee was going to waft out, right, and smack her in the face. And so I started to panic, and I unrolled the window, and I can remember, like, the panic. And you just learn to lie so easily and so quickly. And I think I said, oh, I'm not drinking it. I just love the smell in fall. Don't worry, don't worry. I just love the smell. And she accepted that and said, oh, I do too. Isn't it so tempting? And we both just kind of sat there, like, obviously I didn't buy a coffee for the smell. You know, it was just a conversation that was completely fake and we both engaged in it.

[Ira Glass]

And so when she said, oh, it's so tempting, did you take it as her saying, this is our secret, you know, I love you, we're good.

[Heather Gay]

I took it as her saying, I'm going to pretend to believe Your lie, because it's an easier path for both of us. And I think my kids probably did that a lot, too. Pretended to believe my lies.

[Ira Glass]

This is actually why I wanted to talk to Heather. Our show today is about how different members of the family perceive the same events differently. And what was happening inside Heather's family during those years seemed like such an extreme example of that, because she was trying to deceive her kids. She was raising three daughters on her own, raising them in the church she says to be the perfect vessels of Mormonism for their future husbands. Her words, not mine. This is partly because it was the only way she knew how to be a mother. But also Heather loved her own childhood growing up in the church. She wanted to give that to them. And Heather wasn't just still a believer. She's the kind of try hard, can do believer who became Relief Society president in her ward, which meant that she ministered to the women in about 150 families. Heather stood at a pulpit every Sunday teaching Mormon doctrine. And she did that knowing that her kids sometimes saw her break the rules. Like, for example, after her divorce, she stopped wearing the special Mormon undergarments that adults are supposed to wear. Her kids knew that she didn't wear.

[Heather Gay]

Them because they would see me change and I didn't have them on.

[Ira Glass]

And do you remember any moments where they saw this and they asked?

[Heather Gay]

No, they never asked. They never said a word.

[Ira Glass]

What do you make of that?

[Heather Gay]

I don't even know what to make of that. First, I feel like they probably felt confused. And also I would think resentment because I was a strict mom and I held them to the standard of appearances at church. And I was, you know, I taught from the pulpit. I taught gospel doctrine. And then for them to go home and see that the words coming out of my mouth did not match, like the simplest of actions, like the type.

[Valerie Kipnes]

Of underwear I was wearing.

[Ira Glass]

Do you think that they weren't saying anything? Because it's just one of those things when you're a kid sometimes where you don't even know what it means, but you just know, like, don't go there.

[Valerie Kipnes]

Yeah, I think that's exactly what it was.

[Heather Gay]

I think it was laden with meaning. And so they knew not to ask.

[Ira Glass]

Mostly, Heather tried to keep things on the down low from her kids. She kept a bottle of vodka hidden in the house, high on the third shelf of a closet with sweaters and other clothes that she was sure the girls didn't go into. And she says there were no visible clues of her secret life.

[Heather Gay]

In the house until my business partner bought me a Keurig.

[Ira Glass]

Kerry, get the little coffee maker.

[Heather Gay]

The little coffee maker, the counter coffee maker. And I immediately went out and bought a tier with like all of the herbal teas and hot chocolates because those are kosher. And I made sure that those were on display. And like, for years, every time someone would come to my house, the first thing I would do is like gesture to the Keurig to the coffee maker and say, we love this for hot cocoa for the kids. Like, I would lead with that because it was just such to me a blaring, you know, symbol of rebellion and slipping.

[Ira Glass]

Where were the coffee pods hidden?

[Heather Gay]

They were deep in the pantry in like, honestly, it's a Cheez its multi pack box. Because like with the kids lunches, you get the bigger boxes and then you could just take out all the single serves and you just put them in it.

[Ira Glass]

And then was the scheme that like, once the kids were off at school, you were home alone and you could put the little Kera capsule in and make yourself a coffee. Or were you daring?

[Heather Gay]

I was doing it first thing in the morning.

[Ira Glass]

You would do it first thing in the morning.

[Heather Gay]

I was doing it first thing in the morning. And they could smell it. And I don't know how to explain it. It's like, I assume they wouldn't know what it was because they had never been exposed to it. They didn't see coffee at their friends houses. They didn't, oh, I didn't even acquire the world. It's not like coffee.

[Ira Glass]

You don't live in a world with.

[Heather Gay]

They don't live in coffee. A world with coffee. So you can get away with lying about a lot of things.

[Ira Glass]

Oh, so your 10 year old isn't smelling coffee and thinking it's coffee. Your 10 year old is smelling coffee and just thinking it's the smell.

[Heather Gay]

And I mean, she might have been making the connection all along, but it was a don't ask, don't tell, don't acknowledge policy.

[Ira Glass]

Your oldest is Ashley.

[Heather Gay]

Ashley. She's 22 now.

[Ira Glass]

Oh my God. I want to ask her.

[Heather Gay]

Yeah, you should.

[Ira Glass]

So I reached out to ashley, who was 12 the year they got the Keurig. Little sisters were nine and eight. She came into the studio and from the moment I brought up the Keurig, her memory was totally different from her mom's.

[Ashley (Heather's daughter)]

Guess who gave her the Keurig?

[Ira Glass]

Who?

[Ashley (Heather's daughter)]

Me.

[Ira Glass]

Heather, as you heard, remembers it was her business partner. But as she said no, she had money, she'd earned babysitting it was the first big grown up Christmas present she ever bought her mom.

[Ashley (Heather's daughter)]

I can't believe she didn't tell you that I was the one that got it. It was a big deal. I saved up my money to get her this Keurig.

[Ira Glass]

And when you bought the Keurig, what did you think it was for?

[Bella Rivera]

For coffee.

[Ira Glass]

As she said. She got the idea for this at her friend Elsha's house. Elsha and she were best friends into paid partners, and their moms got to know each other and went into business together. Elsha's family was ex Mormon, so Ashley would see Elsha's parents drink coffee or go to the store or the gym on Sunday, which Mormons aren't supposed to do on the Sabbath. And they seemed normal and happy. And those things did not seem harmful to their family at all.

[Ashley (Heather's daughter)]

Like, I was so fascinated by, like, having a glass of wine at dinner. Like, seeing parents just, like, having a glass of wine at dinner. And I don't know how to explain it felt cool. Like, very cool. And, you know, I want my family to be like this. I was with them a lot growing up and having a Keurig in the house was so normal. And seeing that, I'm like, why can't we have that? You know?

[Ira Glass]

So you bought it for your mom? Understanding. My mom drinks coffee. I'm buying this for her so she can have coffee.

[Ashley (Heather's daughter)]

Yes. Like, I want you to drink coffee.

[Mackenzie Rivera]

Like.

[Ashley (Heather's daughter)]

Like me buying her a Keurig. I think she kind of thought, oh, my gosh, like, Ashley understands me. Like I'm, you know, seen by my daughter and supported in a way. Like, it wasn't, you know, I was on the same wavelength, like, yeah, let's get a Keurig.

[Ira Glass]

She had no idea that her mom didn't remember it this way at all. But she said she was so young, it was really possible that she never told her mom, this is for you to drink coffee. I know you drink coffee.

[Ashley (Heather's daughter)]

Honestly, because I was so.

[Mackenzie Rivera]

I was 12.

[Ashley (Heather's daughter)]

Like, I don't. I guess I wouldn't up and say that, you know.

[Ira Glass]

So you think what might have happened. I just am trying to get this straight. So you think, like, you might have given her the Keurig, understanding what the Keurig is for. But she didn't get the hint.

[Ashley (Heather's daughter)]

I think maybe that's what's going on here. Yeah. Or she didn't want to believe that I saw that side of her that's so interesting.

[Ira Glass]

She couldn't understand what you were trying to show her because she Wasn't ready for it. Yeah, I mean, your mom said to me that you and your sisters were properly raised Mormon children and she was betting on the fact that you hadn't been exposed to coffee at friends houses or elsewhere. So when you would smell coffee at home, you guys wouldn't even know it was coffee.

[Ashley (Heather's daughter)]

Oh, she said that?

[Ira Glass]

Yes.

[Ashley (Heather's daughter)]

Okay. Yeah, I think she's underestimating what I knew about the world at that time.

[Ira Glass]

So Ashley and her mom were in this situation where they each saw why the Carrick arrived very differently. But at the time, each of them thought they both saw it the same way. Which is so weird that I wondered about Ashley's sisters again. They were 8 and 9. When the Keurig arrived, we called her youngest sister.

[Georgia (Heather's daughter)]

Hello, Blue.

[Ira Glass]

Who remembers the Keurig this way?

[Georgia (Heather's daughter)]

We only used it for like, hot chocolate and I can't. Yeah, I don't think she used it for coffee at all.

[Ira Glass]

So when Ashley got her the Keurig, as far as you understood, that was a machine for cocoa?

[Georgia (Heather's daughter)]

Yes, yes.

[Ashley (Heather's daughter)]

Hot chocolate machine.

[Ira Glass]

Your mom explained to me that she was drinking coffee out of it all the time and she was just betting on the fact that, like, you just didn't know what coffee smelled like. Is that possible?

[Georgia (Heather's daughter)]

Oh, yeah. No, that could definitely be true because I. I didn't know what coffee smelled like and I didn't notice at all. So that's crazy. I didn't know that.

[Ira Glass]

Yeah, your mom said she was drinking coffee in the house all the time. Making it all the time.

[Georgia (Heather's daughter)]

What? Wow. Yeah, I had no idea. That's mind blowing to me. Yeah, I. I totally thought she only started drinking it like a couple years ago. I mean, when we left the church.

[Ira Glass]

Can I blow your mind with one other piece of information?

[Georgia (Heather's daughter)]

Yes, please.

[Ira Glass]

Ask your sister Ashley if she knew.

[Georgia (Heather's daughter)]

Did you know Ashley?

[Ashley (Heather's daughter)]

Yes, I fully. I'm like, actually mind blown that you thought that she just started drinking coffee like a few years ago. You had no idea?

[Georgia (Heather's daughter)]

No.

[Mackenzie Rivera]

What?

[Georgia (Heather's daughter)]

Yeah.

[Fidel Rivera]

What?

[Georgia (Heather's daughter)]

Wait, that's crazy. Yeah, because I thought it was such a huge sin. Mom would never do that. That's how you feel?

[Bella Rivera]

Oh my gosh.

[Ashley (Heather's daughter)]

This is blowing my mind.

[Georgia (Heather's daughter)]

Yeah, I'm mind blown. I can't believe that. I can't believe that I'm dead. That's insane. That's insane.

[Ira Glass]

This is as good a time as any to tell you that Heather is on a TV show. If you know the show, I'm guessing that maybe you've already figured that out. Heather? Is Heather gay? One of the real housewives of Salt Lake City. Kind of an audience favorite from that show. One of the things that comes out on that show and in two books that Heather's written is the shame that she sometimes still feels, the fear of judgment. But she's not following the church's rules. What was interesting about talking to Heather's three kids, I also talked to her third daughter, Georgia, was that they felt none of that. None. They'd always seen themselves as one of those Mormon families that bends the rules. They'd always stopped to do things like pick up Mexican food after church on Sunday, even though you're not supposed to get takeout on Sabbath. The mom not wearing church undergarments wasn't a big deal to them. They thought that rule was silly anyway. Ashley always figured she and her mom both felt hemmed in by the church.

[Ashley (Heather's daughter)]

I just understood her, you know, I could see that it just wasn't her, you know, that she wanted something different.

[Ira Glass]

Ashley and I picked up the phone one more time to call her mom.

[Ashley (Heather's daughter)]

This is, like, the best day ever. I'm really enjoying this.

[Georgia (Heather's daughter)]

Hello?

[Ira Glass]

And Ashley told Heather what she told me that she was the one who bought the Keurig and that she did it knowing that her mom drank coffee, trying to say, go ahead, drink coffee at home. That's fine with me. This, of course, there's news to Heather.

[Georgia (Heather's daughter)]

I don't know why it's making me emotional. It feels like you're kind of giving me permission to, you know, be myself. And I. I didn't know all of that behind it. I didn't know that you didn't.

[Ashley (Heather's daughter)]

That makes me want to cry, too. I really. I can't believe we never had that conversation. That was totally, like. Totally what it was.

[Georgia (Heather's daughter)]

I was. I felt like I couldn't embrace it because I felt somehow that I was letting you down, letting the church down, letting down your sisters by being, like, brazen in something that I wasn't allowed to drink. And a good mom doesn't have a Keurig. And I was already a bad mom because I got divorced. And I was already a bad mom because I was working. I was just trying to, like, cling to the standards that I thought that I'd been told to find a good person from a bad person.

[Ira Glass]

But it's funny, by giving you the care, like Ashley is trying to say, like, I know you drink coffee. Do you think you just weren't ready to hear that from Ashley?

[Georgia (Heather's daughter)]

I wasn't ready to hear that from. I didn't admit it to myself, so definitely wasn't ready to hear it from my daughter, who I, you know, it's supposed to, like, keep shielded from all of those things. And when I say keep shielded not from coffee, but from my, you know, failings.

[Ashley (Heather's daughter)]

Oh, no, Mom, I just. That breaks my heart that you. It all breaks my heart. But I, I just always. Yeah, I've understood you. And we. I feel like we were in the same boat. And when you finally were like, guys, I don't want to go to church anymore, I felt this sense of relief for myself, but also for you, that you don't have to live a lie. Just for us, you know?

[Georgia (Heather's daughter)]

Yeah.

[Ashley (Heather's daughter)]

And it started with the Keurig.

[Georgia (Heather's daughter)]

Started with the Keurig. The Gateway. Gateway appliance. Wait, I still have that Keurig. I still use it.

[Ashley (Heather's daughter)]

That's the same one. Wait, that makes you want to buy the Keurig?

[Ira Glass]

People in the same family, people who live under the same roof, can see things so radically differently. Even simple things like a coffee maker. Today on our program, we have another very loving family. Two parents, two kids. And they're in this situation, living through the same events, seeing the exact same things that they all have very different takes on. They try to get on the same page, but it's hard. WBEZ Chicago, this is American Life. I'm Ira Glass. Stay with us. Support for this American life and the following message come from Data IKU Enterprises are sometimes under pressure to launch hundreds of AI applications. When their data teams are stretched thin, they end up mired in slow development cycles and siloed systems. That's where Data IQ comes in. The universal AI platform that makes building AI apps accessible to anyone with low code tools that drive real world impact. From data, visit dataiq.com T A L D A T A Iku.

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[Ira Glass]

It's his American Life Act 1. A House Divided. There's a spot in Mackenzie and Bella's house that's perfect for eavesdropping on their parents. A small sitting nook on the second floor at the top of the stairs. While the parents are downstairs. Talking in the kitchen or in their bedroom. Sound travels up, making its way through the stairwell.

[Mackenzie Rivera]

So you can hear everything that's going down. Or you sit in the rocking jail. It's right across the door, so it's like they'll have the door closed and you can hear murmurs. We're kind of in the shadow. Like I know what's going on, but I don't know exact things.

[Ira Glass]

That's MacKenzie. She's 17. The girl's parents, Jenny and Fidel, almost never fight. They're one of those families that like spending time together. They do arts and crafts together, go on road trips and don't kill each other. That kind of family. The girls are close to their parents, so all this disagreement is abnormal in their house. But since last November, when President Trump won the election, they've been in a stalemate over whether Fidel should self deport, return to Mexico, where he hasn't lived in 30 years. The girls exist on the periphery of this stalemate, living their high school lives during the day, dipping in and out of their parents discussions at home at night.

[Mackenzie Rivera]

Sometimes, like, I'll be upstairs and they'll be discussing stuff and like I'll turn down my music to make sure that I'm not going crazy thinking about what they're talking about, because they seem to be, it's important.

[Ira Glass]

Here's Bella, she's 15.

[Bella Rivera]

Every once in a while when I'm like watching TV or something and I'm sitting on the couch, I'll like pause my show and I'll like listen for a few minutes and then I'll be like, okay, cool, that's what's happening. And then I'll turn my show back on.

[Ira Glass]

And yeah, one of our producers, Valerie Kipnes, was interested in how families are making this decision over whether to self deport and especially the families where people do not agree on what to do or how to handle this. She's been following the Rivera's for most of this year. The parents were definitely, emphatically not in agreement. They live outside Raleigh, North Carolina. Janet Rivera is a high school math teacher. She's a citizen born here, which you might think would mean that her husband Fidel, who's from Mexico, would have a path to citizenship. But there's a long standing part of immigration law. Fidel crossed into the states illegally back when he was 18, left and came back into the states and because of that, he cannot get citizenship through Jenny until he spends 10 years living outside the United States. So he's been living in the US without legal status for 30 years. And for most of this year, he's been in a prolonged, high stakes dispute with Jenny over whether to stay here. Valerie wanted to see how making this decision would reverberate around the walls of this one house. Not just how Jenny and Fidel would figure out what to do, but other kids. Bella and Mackenzie would deal with the stress of this choice that was being discussed for months and could have ended their entire lives. Here's Valerie.

[Valerie Kipnes]

In spite of being incredibly close, Mackenzie and Bella are a classic case of opposites. Mackenzie has a high curly laugh, long hair, gold hoops. A senior in high school, Bella, just two years younger, wears baggy shorts and a soccer jersey and pitches her voice lower in this, yeah, whatever way when she speaks. Here's Bella.

[Bella Rivera]

I just like to sit in my room and exist. Like, honestly, I'm sitting on the couch watching TV and then she comes and blocks my view and is like, is this outfit good? Like, do these shoes match this outfit? Like, does my hair look good? Yeah, but, yeah, but I'll be honest with her. I'll tell her if her hair looks frizzy or something, but yeah.

[Valerie Kipnes]

On cue, Bella points to her big sister's neck where her necklace has gotten tangled.

[Bella Rivera]

Your necklace is like, okay, thank you, queen.

[Valerie Kipnes]

Upstairs are the girls bedrooms and a little hangout area downstairs is the site of their parents disagreement about whether their dad and the family should leave the country. What the girls have been calling the situation. Could you tell me about some of the moments that it has come up.

[Mackenzie Rivera]

Like, about the situation? I think that most recently it's just been like every day. It's mostly because, like, is she singing?

[Bella Rivera]

She's singing.

[Mackenzie Rivera]

Yeah, she's singing.

[Valerie Kipnes]

The person singing in the background is their mom, Jenny. She's in the room next door wearing noise canceling headphones singing the 2015 hit single Fight song.

[Mackenzie Rivera]

Okay, okay. Well, she does that a lot, actually.

[Bella Rivera]

Every once in a while I'd be sitting upstairs and then I hear her voice coming through the floor and I was like, what is happening? I thought it was like a ghost in my room.

[Mackenzie Rivera]

Like, because my grandma told her it's a good way to distract your mind.

[Bella Rivera]

Yeah.

[Mackenzie Rivera]

So she does that by singing.

[Valerie Kipnes]

Jenny's been singing a lot this past year, ever since Donald Trump won the election because she stressed about Fidel. She just wanted him to make a plan. Either he should move to Mexico or they should move together as a family. The one thing they couldn't do from her perspective was to keep doing what they had been for the last 16 years, living under the radar, that wasn't.

[Jenny Rivera]

Working for me anymore. Just doing what we're doing wasn't working. I needed to have a plan in place in case something happened.

[Valerie Kipnes]

Jenny is a rule follower. For 16 years. She worried when Fidel drove to work without a license that he'd get into an accident and their insurance wouldn't cover it, or he'd get stopped by police and end up in detention. The only way Jenny had been able to sleep at night was because a lawyer had told them that if Fidel got picked up in that situation, it wasn't hopeless. They could go in front of a judge and argue for Fidel. He's got a great job, no criminal record, dad of two, married to a U.S. citizen. Maybe they could make their case for him to stay.

[Jenny Rivera]

We had a one card to play. That's what I call it. It's just like we had one. We had one ace in the hole that we could play.

[Valerie Kipnes]

In Trump's second term, that option would probably go away. And if Adele got picked up, he'd probably be detained and deported. Jenny couldn't see a path forward. Fidel, however, saw it differently. Trump hadn't even taken office yet. He thought she was overreacting.

[Fidel Rivera]

It's like, are you crazy? I'm not. I'm not gonna go nowhere. Even like I told her, it's like I'd be here for 30 years and it's. Nothing happened. It's like, I never be in the jail, I never be in bad accident. I just go to work and coming back, why you need to worry about too much, you know, I was thinking, like, I'm going to prove you wrong. It's not going to happen.

[Valerie Kipnes]

When I first started talking to Fidel and Jenny over the phone, this is where they were at an impasse.

[Fidel Rivera]

Right now she's the one like, what are we gonna do? What are we gonna do? I think some part of my brain is like, lack or something because you.

[Valerie Kipnes]

Feel like there's time pressure.

[Fidel Rivera]

Yeah, the time and the.

[Jenny Rivera]

Wife is driving him nuts.

[Fidel Rivera]

And my wife's driving me nuts. My wife is.

[Jenny Rivera]

Getting mad because he's sticking his head in the sand.

[Fidel Rivera]

He's sticking my hand in the. But like I said, I try to not think in that way. But like I said, we are totally different persons.

[Valerie Kipnes]

These are the conversations the girls are overhearing. Fidel and Jenny have been married 17 years, happily. They met salsa dancing. He stepped on her foot. She said, you owe me an ice cream. They spent the night talking at Denny's these days, they still salsa dance in the living room and corner off weekend mornings just for talking. When I ask Fidel to describe who's who in the relationship, this is how he frames the answer.

[Fidel Rivera]

I always tell her, it's the positive and the negative. Yeah, it's the positive and the negative.

[Valerie Kipnes]

Because you're an electrician, it's, like, funny that you're saying positive and negative because that's.

[Fidel Rivera]

Yeah, it's like how the battery works, how the car works. Right? You know, because I always think positive, you know, but she always looked at reality. She's the one, you know, saving money. She's the one make sure everything in the house works, all the paperwork is right, make sure the girls got the right school.

[Valerie Kipnes]

Jenny posts to do lists around the house. He executes, crossing each item off as he goes along. That's how they both like it.

[Jenny Rivera]

He is the fun dad. He does all the fun things. He takes the kids out for ice cream and he spoils them. And if it's the disciplinarian, that's me. He is not the disciplinarian at all.

[Valerie Kipnes]

Fidel's style is more to try and tease the girls into listening to him. For instance, Mackenzie likes to wear short shorts. So one day Fidel said, hey, if you're going out like that, I'll do it, too. He grabbed scissors and cut off the bottom of his T shirt and made it into a crop top. Then he reached for his shorts.

[Fidel Rivera]

I cut them and I stuck it up all the way up. Like, stuck it up all the way up, like, hey, if you go to go to the street like that, hey, let me go, too. We can go together.

[Valerie Kipnes]

Was she embarrassed? What'd she say?

[Fidel Rivera]

Say, I'm not gonna go with you like that.

[Bella Rivera]

My dad is like. He's, like, very, like, obnoxious Isabella.

[Fidel Rivera]

So was you annoying me. Even Jennifer said, stop being annoying. And even my guest said, even stop annoying. It's. It's love. It's. I don't know, it's annoying to them, but it's love.

[Valerie Kipnes]

In January, on the first day of President Trump's second term, he declared a border emergency, moved to end birthright citizenship, and suspended refugee admissions. Within weeks, the TV was full of ads, Department of Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem telling immigrants, leave now. If you don't, we will find you and we will deport you. You will never reach her. Jenny had tried to find out everything about the Trump administration's plans. She'd read about Project 2025 and worried that If Fidel got picked up, he'd get stuck in a detention center and it would ruin their lives. She'd heard horror stories, people being treated cruelly, getting abused. She couldn't stop picturing Fidel in there, in a cell with nowhere to sleep, no way to call. What if he came out a completely different person than he went in? She didn't want that for her sweet goofball of a husband. And would they have to spend their life savings to get him out? One couple they were friends with, the husband, had gotten picked up.

[Jenny Rivera]

They are over $50,000 in debt to attorneys. So you have destroyed, absolutely destroyed, this couple's life.

[Valerie Kipnes]

But Fidel told her he was willing to take the risk. He wanted to stay.

[Jenny Rivera]

And I said, so what do you want to do if you get picked up? Tell me what that looks like. So if we're just gonna take our chances and we're gonna stay, what happens if you get picked up? During that conversation, he said, I don't want you to spend any money to get me out. If he were to get picked up for anything. And I told him that he needed to tell his children that, because if something were to happen, they would never forgive me. They would never forgive me for leaving him in there. Even if it was a decision that he and I made together, they would never forgive me because I'm the fixer for all these kind of things.

[Valerie Kipnes]

Fidel felt that unless Ice was here, here, like in their small suburban town, an hour outside Raleigh, North Carolina, there really wasn't much to worry about. He figured the odds were with him while they were having these conversations. Last winter, ICE had arrested less than half of 1% of the 14 million undocumented people in the country. Besides, Trump was still saying that he was going after criminals. And Fidel didn't see himself as a criminal. He was a tax paying dad, a successful electrician helping build public schools in the area. If Fidel got detained and deported, it'd be disastrous. But it was just so unlikely. Jenny wasn't going to wait around for Fidel to agree with her, to make a plan. She started prepping on her own, holed herself away in her home office and got to work putting together these massive purple binders of pay stubs, receipts, paperwork.

[Jenny Rivera]

His birth certificate, a copy of all of his passports and identification, copies of.

[Valerie Kipnes]

Our tax returns, hundreds of documents in the case of his arrests or detainment that she could use to prove that Fidel had been here working, not committing crimes, for the past 30 years. She labeled the binders in case of emergency. Fidel found it all a little bit annoying.

[Fidel Rivera]

Like, annoying like she wanted me to go, you know, like she wanted me to go.

[Valerie Kipnes]

Did it hurt your feelings, this idea that she might want you to go?

[Fidel Rivera]

I guess yes. You know, like, yes. Like, why do you want me to go? It's like my life is in here. That is. It hurts.

[Valerie Kipnes]

Did you ever tell her that it hurt your feelings?

[Fidel Rivera]

No, I think it's like a. This is like a proud, how you say, proud. But I think I'm not gonna tell you what hurts, you know?

[Valerie Kipnes]

Mackenzie and Bella could understand both parents arguments over whether he should go, but it was easier to side with their dad. He was saying there was nothing to worry about, everything was fine and things could stay the same.

[Mackenzie Rivera]

Me and Bella both swayed to the side of keeping my dad in United States.

[Bella Rivera]

We kind of just didn't want him to go. So we kind of like just. I don't know if we like avoided it more. Like we just like didn't really think about it.

[Mackenzie Rivera]

I guess it'd be a shadow. And I definitely feel like it would come out though when we were like at home and like if we weren't doing anything, if we were being a family, it would be like, oh, this might come to an end.

[Valerie Kipnes]

They'd been sitting with some version of this dread for over five years. They first learned that their dad might have to move to Mexico back in 2020 when Donald Trump was running for his second term. They were in fifth and seventh grade and their mom, Jenny, was scared of what Trump would do with immigration in a second term and felt like she had to prepare the girls, who at that time had no idea at all that their dad was undocumented or that he might have to leave. Of course this was life altering news.

[Bella Rivera]

I was crying. Yeah, I know that.

[Valerie Kipnes]

Were you crying too?

[Mackenzie Rivera]

Yeah, definitely.

[Bella Rivera]

I distinctly remember trying to hide the fact that I was crying by like putting my hand right here and then I would like lay down on the desk in my arm like that. Like I did not want to be crying. So yeah, thing is, just I don't like the feeling of like it on my face really. So when I try to cry, I try to like get it before it gets like down to here area.

[Valerie Kipnes]

So their parents asked them not to tell anyone, which made this big news feel even heavier. Suddenly they felt different from the other kids at school.

[Mackenzie Rivera]

Things started to also just make more sense because like, also people like describe like when you're married, like the man's supposed to drive and then I'm like, oh, but, like, my dad doesn't drive. And then it's like, oh, that's probably why, because he doesn't have a license.

[Valerie Kipnes]

Padel does drive, but when the family's together, Jenny's the one who drives.

[Bella Rivera]

I started understanding why we didn't travel as much. I heard my friends all the time saying they traveled to, like, Canada or Europe or whatever. I don't know what a five year old's doing in Europe, but whatever. But it was like you'd hear them traveling. And I was like, why don't we ever travel? And so I kind of started understanding why.

[Valerie Kipnes]

With this new understanding came fear. Mackenzie started having nightmares about ice.

[Mackenzie Rivera]

They come and, like, break into the house almost like a movie. And then we know that they're coming, but we're all hiding in the house behind the tv. And then they find, like, my dad and like, I'm standing, hiding away, but I still see him. And they're just like, taking him away.

[Valerie Kipnes]

That was in seventh grade. She's older now, but the nightmares returned when Trump took office again and she started overhearing her parents arguing. The situation was back. Do you guys ever talk about it amongst yourselves?

[Mackenzie Rivera]

I actually don't think we've talked about it.

[Bella Rivera]

Yeah, no, we don't really talk about it.

[Mackenzie Rivera]

I think that we both do the same thing for a week.

[Bella Rivera]

We try to, like, avoid it in conversations.

[Mackenzie Rivera]

I don't think we've ever, like, brought it up willingly just to talk because it's just like we're gonna sit there and be sad.

[Valerie Kipnes]

Instead, they dealt with the tension in the house by distracting themselves.

[Bella Rivera]

I think there was at one point, Mackenzie had a running phase where she ran every night.

[Mackenzie Rivera]

I ran every night during the wintertime because, like, Trump had just won. And then all these things were just ending in my head.

[Bella Rivera]

And she doesn't like running in the lake. She doesn't like people looking at her while she runs.

[Mackenzie Rivera]

Exactly.

[Bella Rivera]

So we. When it'd get dark, she would run and I would ride my bike next to her because I cannot run for anything. Like, it's so bad. But yeah.

[Valerie Kipnes]

Do you guys talk too?

[Mackenzie Rivera]

I think when I would be walking, we would talk, but it must be about school drama.

[Valerie Kipnes]

They'd run and bike for as long as they could until it was too late to be out. And only then would they go home. Traipse passed their parents watching the evening news and go upstairs.

[Mackenzie Rivera]

It's not like I don't care about what's going on. It's more like it's like just sad. And it's like, well, like, if you're gonna, you're gonna be sad forever or like you're gonna block it out and just move on or something.

[Valerie Kipnes]

But the Trump administration did not want anyone to block out what they were doing. They wanted their immigration policies splashed across headlines and social media. They wanted them embedded in the nation's psyche, especially in families like this one. In March, the headlines were, Kilmar Abrego Garcia was mistakenly deported from Maryland to the notorious C Cop prison in El Salvador along with 260 other people. The Trump administration added a self deport button to the Customs and Border protection app. Meanwhile, Mackenzie was working weekends at Jersey Mike's. Bella was on the wrestling team. She and Fidel practiced grappling in the living room. He drove the girls to soccer games most weekends, cheering them on from the sidelines. Jenny taped little cards all over the front door on red construction paper. What to do if ice comes knocking. Bella's 15th birthday was coming up, her quinceanera year, a big deal. Fidel and Jenny kept asking her about plans and ideas for the party, but she just kept pushing it off. At one point, her parents even asked her, do you want a quince or a car instead? Kinsei?

[Bella Rivera]

She said, I wanted one. But then I was like, I was thinking about it and I was like, what if he's not actually, like, there for it? Like, the dad is like a big part of a quince. So I was like, what if he's like, not even there to, like, celebrate it with me? Do I really want that? And I was like, I don't want a Kinsei without him. So I didn't want to go through, like, all the trouble of planning it and then him not being there. So I was like, oh, I don't want to do this anymore.

[Valerie Kipnes]

So she called it off.

[Fidel Rivera]

I was not happy with that. You know, it's like, I just want to do the party. I just want to see Isabella happy. But it is what it is. You know, we need to plan in everything and have that stress and for some reason happen and like, oh, your dad is not going to be there in the potty. I think that would be pretty bad thing to happen.

[Ira Glass]

Valerie Kipnes. Coming up, the pressure on the family increases and the kids overhear something they haven't heard before. That's in a minute on Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.

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[Ira Glass]

Just American Life Today's program under one roof stories of families going through experiences where different family members see things very differently from each other. We're in the middle of Valerie Kipnis story about the Rivera family trying to figure out if they should self deport. We pick up in the spring.

[Valerie Kipnes]

The stalemate between Jenny and Fidel was getting worse every day. Jenny went online trying to think through a possible move. She scrolled through houses in Mexico, tried to find towns they could afford with expat communities. She looked up English language schools for the girls who don't speak Spanish. She showed all this to Fidel and he went along with it begrudgingly. He didn't think it was necessary. And all these months of pressure of arguing culminated in this one fight when Jenny and Fidel found themselves standing across from each other in the living room yelling. No one can remember what started the fight. What they do remember is the yelling.

[Fidel Rivera]

I think the kids upstairs and they hear that stuff.

[Valerie Kipnes]

How do you know?

[Fidel Rivera]

I'm pretty sure they hear we yelling putting loud stuff. You know we yell and put it loud each other. It's like I'm thinking in the top of my head. It's like, aren't you crazy? It's not gonna happen. We yell at each other.

[Valerie Kipnes]

Was that unusual for you?

[Fidel Rivera]

Yes, that is inertial because, like, say, 17 years, we never yell on each other, right? That is when my head start thinking, like, she's. She's overstressed. And it's like, this is when. Now is when my head start to kick in. It's like, I need to do something. You know, I need to. I need to start thinking.

[Valerie Kipnes]

The truth was, Adele's resolve was starting to unravel. He had always believed that until job sites near him got raided, he was okay. There was nothing to worry about. But by the spring, ICE arrests in North Carolina had more than doubled since the same time. Last year. He started counting heads at work. Was anyone missing? He started getting nervous whenever he was driving or when he saw a cop. In May, the Trump administration created Project Homecoming, offering people $1,000 and a free plane ticket to leave the country. They regularly posted triumphant videos on social media of agents with gators and guns blasting doors, raiding people's homes and workplaces, of people in shackles being let onto planes, often to the tune of trolling music. Fidel watched those videos and others that were going viral, and they had the effect on him that the Trump administration probably wanted. They scared him.

[Fidel Rivera]

I think I saw it in the tv. When the kids separate with the parent, that videos where they grab the mom and separate the mom and the kids stay crying or the mom never coming back and the kids thinking what they're gonna do. It's like, I don't want that feeling for my kids. I don't want to give them that feeling.

[Valerie Kipnes]

One day, Mackenzie saw reports on social media that ICE was in their area. She texted her parents. Fidel texted her back a goofy face emoji and don't worry about it. But it bothered him that she was thinking about this stuff. I called him in June to check in his friend's brother who worked nearby. His job site had just been raided, and Fidel was preoccupied with two bills in front of the North Carolina legislature that would force state agencies like highway patrol to cooperate with ice.

[Fidel Rivera]

Almost all last year, when Jennifer told me, it's like, hey, when it starts to making a plan, it's like, oh, I don't think it's nothing gonna happen. But now it's. Especially with these two bills, it's like, oh, I think. I think my wife is right.

[Valerie Kipnes]

Wow, Fidel, last time that you and I spoke, you were kind of like, I don't know, she's a bit dramatic. Like, I don't know if I need to do this.

[Bella Rivera]

Yeah, it's a big change.

[Fidel Rivera]

Yes. It's, you know, Every day I was like a little bit processing. It's like I need to start thinking and like, I need to like, change, Change my switch.

[Valerie Kipnes]

The last straw for Fidel was Alligator Alcatraz.

[Fidel Rivera]

I'm not, I'm not going to be in one of that places. That is my switch. When Jennifer told me five months ago, hey, they're going to build detention centers. And even I told her, it's like, aren't you crazy? They're not going to build. And three months later, like, we got the first one, you know, and I'm pretty sure maybe it's going to be more.

[Valerie Kipnes]

After all those months, all those conversations, Fidel finally agreed that he needed to leave. Maybe with the family, but probably alone. So in June, he sat Jenny down.

[Fidel Rivera]

The Saturdays or Sundays, we sit in the couch in the mornings and I, and I, like, I told her, it's like, okay, fine, I'm going, I gotta go. Yeah, it's like, you sure? And I say yes. Like, the face changed right away.

[Valerie Kipnes]

Like she was relieved.

[Fidel Rivera]

Like a relief in her face. Like, I think finally he understand. Like, finally. Yeah, but yeah, it's, it's, it's good, it's fine.

[Valerie Kipnes]

This is what Jenny had been asking for all along. She's had such a hard time watching the Trump administration's war against immigrants escalate.

[Jenny Rivera]

But I've already been living in that fear and panic for 16 years, and I can't take any more. And maybe if I was a different person, I could wait it out, but I'm not. I am who I am.

[Valerie Kipnes]

Something I think a lot is, like, people who do support Trump, like, if they were to think about this, they would feel like this is the point is for people to be scared is for people to leave, to self deport.

[Fidel Rivera]

Right?

[Valerie Kipnes]

And it feels like, is there a part of you that feels like this is like, like admitting, like raising the white flag and being like you won or no?

[Jenny Rivera]

Yeah. Feels like you're giving up. It absolutely does. But if you'd been living in the purgatory that we've been in for all of these years and you weren't able to make any plans for your future, for your kids future, for your life, at some point, everybody is going to raise that white flag. And so I am. I just can't do it anymore.

[Valerie Kipnes]

Meanwhile, Fidel has spent decades feeling like even though he entered the country illegally, he was here now. And he'd do things by the book, work hard at his job, pay into Social Security, he'll never get back, support his kids Soccer team and Girl Scout troops, hoping that the people of America would see what he and so many other people were doing, that they were already contributing to this country and embrace them and make them full citizens. But now he realized that deal was never going to come. In fact, a lot of people didn't even want him here. He couldn't stop thinking about how hard he'd worked to make it in this country. Picking oranges and tobacco. He'd started as a sweeper at his electrical company, worked his way up for years.

[Fidel Rivera]

I think that is one of the reasons, like, I feel, like, angry. It's because you are on the top of your career.

[Valerie Kipnes]

Patel's at the peak of his career running projects and crews.

[Fidel Rivera]

Like, I work so hard. I work so hard. You know, work, start from the bottom and go all the way up. And now I'm gonna start again. But now the difference is 50 years old. I'm not 30 years old. My, my legs is not gonna be the same and my hands is not gonna be the same.

[Valerie Kipnes]

Next. Fidel and Jenny told the girls their dad would leave after Christmas. And the girls didn't really take it seriously. They'd been talking about Fidel leaving for months. This just felt like another update. So far away. For months, Jenny had been gaming out their Mexico options. And they weren't great. There was the money. She had just a few more years, five years before she could get her full pension. If she moved away now, they could live comfortably in Mexico, but probably never could come back to live in the US again. They couldn't afford it. So she decided she probably wouldn't move. It wasn't worth it. As for the girls, she couldn't find them a public school with a good English speaking program. But she wanted this to be a family decision. So Jenny called the girls into the living room for a family meeting.

[Mackenzie Rivera]

We were all sitting downstairs over there on the couches. I'm sitting in the middle and my mom's like, over there on that couch by herself and my dad's sitting next to me and I, I think I'm on the floor. Yeah, I think you're on the floor.

[Valerie Kipnes]

Jenny held up her iPad. On it was the listing for a house in Mexico. She was like, check out this house I found. Maybe we could all move down to Mexico together. Would you want to live there, go to school there? MacKenzie, the older sister, was the first to respond.

[Mackenzie Rivera]

I think I said no to begin with. I was like, I don't want that. Didn't we have a whole thing?

[Bella Rivera]

Bella, she was so adamant that she did not want to move.

[Mackenzie Rivera]

Like, she was, oh, yeah, it was bad. I remember not wanting to leave the country at all, because, I mean, this was. This is my only place that I've been. Born here, raised North Carolina. So it was like, you're gonna make me leave when I've dedicated my work in my school to North Carolina and to United States? That didn't make any sense. I said, I don't want to leave. This makes like. I was like, it doesn't make any sense for me to want to go, because I'm like, this is my senior year. This is my last year at the school. You're not giving me enough time. And then my mom got mad, and she responded at me. Your dad is, like, dealing with this. It's causing me stress. It's causing the family stress. It's, like, intense around here because of what's going on. And then Bella didn't say anything. I don't think. My dad's barely said anything. I think me and my mom were, like, just rapid firing against each other. And then Bella kind of came and defended me, I guess she was like, I see why Mackenzie doesn't want to go, and you just let her be for a little bit. And my mom was like, saying, oh, you need to come back here. We still need to talk. And then my dad probably said the same thing. And I was like, I don't really have anything to say. I don't want to go, and I don't want to hear about all your plans about moving. I said no to everything in general. Like, moving, thinking about moving, thinking about my dad leaving, thinking about the house, thinking about, like, I don't know, everything. I was, like, saying, I don't want anything to happen. I just want it to stay how it is.

[Bella Rivera]

I mean, I was chill with whatever. Like, honestly, that's what I said. I was like, I don't really care what happens. Like, I do care. I do. But you can literally take me out of the country. I could care less where I go. Like, I'll stay here. I'll leave. I'll do online school. I don't know. I'll just. I didn't really, like, care for it, so. I do care. Stop looking at me like that.

[Valerie Kipnes]

Why are you looking at her like that?

[Mackenzie Rivera]

I'm not looking at her like, anything. She just, like, sounds, like, weird.

[Bella Rivera]

I was gonna do whatever my mom thought was best, like, leaving or saying that's what I was gonna do. And I get why Mackenzie didn't want to leave. Either. Like, I think my mom was really upset about the fact that she didn't want to leave, but I get why she didn't, because she is literally, like, one year away from 18, and.

[Jenny Rivera]

You'Re.

[Bella Rivera]

Not gonna, like, really make any new friends at a new school for senior year.

[Valerie Kipnes]

Jenny had always thought that this was where the girls would land. The girls felt like Jenny was asking a question she already had the answer to. Fidel sat there quietly during this whole conversation, not saying much at all. Did you secretly wish that everyone said, okay, let's all go, or no?

[Fidel Rivera]

Honestly? Yeah. I say, yeah, everybody, let's go. You know, like, if MacKenzie said, yeah, we can go, and Bella said, yeah, we can go, and Jennifer said, yeah, we can go, it's like that, sure, let's go. But that is like a movie stuff, then the real life is not gonna. It's not going to happen.

[Valerie Kipnes]

Fidel's sister went to see the house in Mexico. It's four bedrooms with a small pool not far from the beach. She called him afterwards and told him it was really nice, a smart investment. When Fidel heard, his heart dropped. There was no backing out now. He'd have to be there to sign the documents in September. In three weeks, he was really leaving. Jenny was out of town and asked Fidel to be the one to tell the kids he'd be leaving in three weeks. He was nervous to tell them, so he kind of sidestepped the whole conversation. Just said, so, you know, I might be leaving, right? They were like, yeah, that's what we've been talking about. And then he dropped it. A few days later, Jenny called the girls.

[Bella Rivera]

And then I'm sitting on the couch one day, I'm wearing sister's on a call with my mom. And then my mom says something about him leaving in September. And then Mackenzie tells me, you know, fife's leaving in, like, mid September. And I was like, what?

[Mackenzie Rivera]

And then she goes and checks her calendar on the phone. She's like, that's next month.

[Bella Rivera]

Yeah. I was like, what the heck, guys? I didn't know this.

[Valerie Kipnes]

I visited the girls in August. Weeks before her scheduled departure, Mackenzie and Bella were processing this sudden new reality in real time.

[Bella Rivera]

I mean, like, in a year, I had time to, like, get myself kind of, like, ready for it. Like, I was, I could spend a little bit more time with my dad. Like, but he's leaving in a month, and there's not really much you can. Much you can do in a month with your dad.

[Mackenzie Rivera]

And that's literally how probably I'M going to think about it when he's gone. I could have done more.

[Bella Rivera]

Yeah.

[Mackenzie Rivera]

It's like he's just gonna disappear. Like, he's gonna be here one day, then he's gonna be gone.

[Valerie Kipnes]

They were just starting to get their minds around it. For their whole lives, it had been the four of them. Now Fidel would be gone. What would graduation look like? What about wrestling on the weekends and soccer, which was such a big part of their lives? Fidel was a soccer parent. He'd go to every game.

[Bella Rivera]

I realized he's not going to be there for, like, another tournament. So.

[Mackenzie Rivera]

Yeah. Oh, Sagar season. He's not going to be here.

[Bella Rivera]

Well, he'll be here for, like, the first part of it. Barely. I hope at least he gets to come to, like, one more game.

[Mackenzie Rivera]

Maybe he'll be going to a couple, but.

[Bella Rivera]

Yeah, I remember it was the other day, and my. My mom was still gone, and she was gone, and then my dad was, like, in some place. I don't know, he was outside or something. And I realized she's going to college next year. My mom's the only one that's going to be here because my dad's going to be gone. So this is what my life is going to be like for, like, three more years. Like, I'm not gonna, like, have anybody to just, like, talk to. So, yeah.

[Valerie Kipnes]

You guys are spreading telepathic messages to one another.

[Georgia (Heather's daughter)]

What are they.

[Mackenzie Rivera]

No, I'm not spreading telepathic. I'm just sad because I didn't even, like, really think about that. Okay. I guess I didn't think about how Bella was gonna be here all by herself without people.

[Bella Rivera]

Yeah, well, I'll have my sports to, like, distract me from things. And I'll probably, like, go to the gym or something. I have my friends and everything. And I talk to my best friend about, like, we'll tell each other everything, but she's not gonna be the same as my sister.

[Mackenzie Rivera]

Yeah, I guess that's the same for me. I don't. Well, personally, I don't tell my friends everything. I mostly just tell Bella everything.

[Valerie Kipnes]

The plan was Jenny would stay with the girls. She would work for five more years so she could get her pension, retire. Then she joined Fidel in Mexico in the city of Merida, in a nice little neighborhood with lots of expats far from his family in Mexico. But that's sort of what he wanted. He didn't want to feel like a failure coming back to the same place all these years later. Jenny and the girls would visit him on school breaks. As his departure date approached, the girls started hugging their dad a lot more. Bella even watched one of his favorite TV shows with him, the Voice. Fidel's been acting differently too. He's imparting all the last minute wisdom he can think of. How to change the car oil, how to fix the stove, how to get the barbecue to work just right.

[Fidel Rivera]

Make sure you know what is a screwdriver and you know what is a wrench. But it's that is this part that got saddening, like angry because I'm gonna leave my kids. I think that is the stuff when I got angry with myself. It's like, oh man, I need to leave my kids.

[Valerie Kipnes]

How do you think your relationship will be if you're not over here?

[Fidel Rivera]

That is going to be a, like a challenge. She's, she's going to be here, I going to be there. And you know, some days they're going to feel alone and some days they're going to feel alone and she's gonna be. I'm pretty sure she's. Someday she's gonna be really frustrate because she got two teenagers and I'm gonna be over there by myself. Like, no, pretty much no responsibilities. You know, she gonna have all the work.

[Jenny Rivera]

He sucks talking on the phone.

[Bella Rivera]

He does.

[Jenny Rivera]

I love my husband. He has a lot of great qualities, but he's the on the phone. He's like, huh. Mm, yeah, okay. It is a hundred percent, 100% gonna suck for the next five years. There's no question about it. I wake up in the morning and I have my coffee while I talk to my husband and I talk to him before I go to bed at night. And I'm like, I don't know how I'm gonna manage without him. I really don't.

[Valerie Kipnes]

Can you imagine your life there?

[Fidel Rivera]

I see my house, big house empty. I think my only way to spend my time is working. Like work the most I can. Like 12 hours, 13 hours, 14 hours.

[Jenny Rivera]

Why?

[Valerie Kipnes]

So you don't have to be alone in the house or why?

[Fidel Rivera]

Yeah, I don't need to be alone and I don't need to be be depressed or thinking in something else. Just stay busy working.

[Valerie Kipnes]

Since Trump took office, 1.6 million people have self deported, at least according to the Trump administration. That thousand dollars that they offer anyone who self deports. Fidel refused it. He found it insulting. He didn't want his name part of any official list being used to prove Trump's success. Instead, he decided his own terms of departure when and how I can live.

[Fidel Rivera]

Through the front door, not the back door. You know, I can live in my own terms. I live happy. I leave my family happy.

[Valerie Kipnes]

He had planned to take off quietly, but Jenny and the girls refused to let him disappear without a trace, as if he hadn't been here all this time. So they threw a farewell Fidel party, invited all his friends, his co workers and their neighbors to celebrate the last three decades. On the day of the party, he disappeared for a while. When he showed back up, he had a massive pinata of Donald Trump custom made. They hung it in the backyard. Padel swung at it, laughing, and Bella finished it off. Padel left in October. He pushed back his departure date so he could be there for his 17th wedding anniversary and for the first soccer tournament of the season.

[Ira Glass]

Valerie Kipnes is a producer on our show. A week after Fidel left, Jenny heard from the school that a father of two kids there was picked up by ICE and is in detention now.

[Sponsor/Announcer]

Meet again.

[Fidel Rivera]

Don'T know where, don't know.

[Valerie Kipnes]

When But I know we'll meet again some sunny day.

[Ira Glass]

Our program is produced today by Lily Sullivan. Dana Chivas edited Valerie's story. The people who put together today's show include Fia Bennett, Michael K. Emanuel Jochi, Suzanne Gabber, Cassie Halley, Hana Joffrey, Walt, Seth Lind, Mary Marge Locker, Tobin Lowe, Catherine Raymondos, Jo Nelson, Nadia Raymond, Anthony Roman, Ryan Rumery, Alyssa Shipp, Christopher Sutala and Diane Wu. Our managing editors, Sara Abderrahman our senior editors, David Kestenbaum our executive editors, Emmanuel Barry. Special thanks today to Kathy Capp, Ashley de Acevedo at American Families United, Vanessa de Hakis Torres and Bell Woods. Heather Gay, who you heard at the top of the show, has a new documentary series about the Mormon Church that premiered this week called Surviving Mormonism. It's on Bravo. This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by prx, the public Radio Exchange. A reminder, if you like our show, if you listen to us a lot, please consider signing up as a this American Life partner. Do it for the stuff you get. Bonus episodes, an archive of greatest hits right in your podcast feed. Ad free listening or do it simply because you want us to be able to keep making the show. [e-mail] LifePartners support for this American Life comes from Keurig coffee makers, bringing families together and defying the Mormon God for 30 years. I'm kidding. They're not an underwriter. Thanks as always to our program's co founder, Ms. Tori Malatea. Who loved his mother like crazy, thought she was the best until that day that he walked into her kitchen and saw a certain appliance there.

[Georgia (Heather's daughter)]

And a good mom doesn't have a Keurig.

[Ira Glass]

I'm Eric Glass, back next week with more stories of this American life.

[Fidel Rivera]

But I know we'll meet again some sunny day.

[Ira Glass]

Next week on the podcast this American Life, a teacher hands her class a white cardboard box. It's closed. They can shake it, but they can't open it. They have to guess what's inside. And then she takes the box away.

[Valerie Kipnes]

And I get sick when I'm wondering. You get sick? I'm allergic to wondering. I'm allergic to wondering.

[Ira Glass]

Stories of people who just want to know. Next week on the podcast on your local public radio station.

[Valerie Kipnes]

This message comes from Squarespace, offering a library of professionally designed website templates. Grow your business with a customizable website. Visit squarespace.com NPR for 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

[Ira Glass]

This message comes from Schwab. Everyone has moments when they could have done better, like cutting their own hair or forgetting sunscreen. So now you look like a tomato. Same goes for where you invest. Level up and invest smarter with Schwab. Get market insights, education and human help when you need it. Learn [e-mail].