877: The Making Of

Summary

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Podcast Summary: This American Life, Episode 877: "The Making Of"

Air date: December 21, 2025
Host: Ira Glass
Reporters: Zoe Chase, Suzanne Gabber
Location: Portland, Oregon

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Overview of the Episode

Theme:
This episode explores the "making of" a political narrative—a real-life “behind the scenes” look at the story of Portland, Oregon, as America’s so-called war zone. The show investigates how right-wing live streamers and citizen journalists—amplified by the Trump administration and conservative media—produced and exported a vision of Portland as a city under constant violent siege from "antifa." The story on the ground, as reported by Zoe Chase and Suzanne Gabber, is far messier, smaller-scale, and more performative than the national myth.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Making Of a Narrative (00:00–10:00)

• Ira Glass introduces the idea of documentaries about movies ("making of" genres) and connects it to the "making of" Portland’s war-torn image.
• Trump’s declaration of Portland as “war-ravaged” (02:57) was triggered by Fox News, using citizen journalist footage—much of it shot by pro-Trump live streamers.
• These streamers deliver a narrative: left-wing protesters (“antifa”) are violent, local officials let them run wild, and heroic streamers risk everything to capture “the truth.” Their videos fuel both the media coverage and federal action (04:19).

“America is a big country. We all, from the President on down, rely on images and words from other people to understand what’s going on elsewhere. And a vision of Portland, a movie about Portland… is justification for all these law enforcement policies all over the country today.” — Ira Glass (09:54)

2. What’s Actually Happening in Portland? (12:00–23:00)

• The supposed “war” is limited to a single city block, outside the ICE facility, with daily protests ranging from <10 to 200 people (12:00). Daytime: art, costumes, music; nighttime: more tense, sometimes confrontational.
• Violence mostly amounts to blocking ICE vehicles, arguments, and occasional property damage (e.g. flag burning, graffiti, fireworks).
• Police have allowed some disruptions under court order; complaints from neighbors about noise and disruption are frequent.

“...the entire conflict between protesters and police, the entire war, is happening on exactly one city block outside an ICE facility.” — Ira Glass (12:06)

3. The Ecosystem of Right-Wing Streamers (13:18–18:00)

• Zoe Chase and Suzanne Gabber describe the citizen journalist crowd: right-wing live streamers, commentators, and provocateurs with large online followings.
• Many earn a living or side income from streaming—tips, subscriptions, sometimes more than their regular jobs.
• The culture is performative and echo-chamber: arguments, yelling matches, and “content” for their audiences. Streamers provoke and record, driving cycles of escalation and viral confrontation.

“We’re in a reality show right now... you have all these different angles. It’s like the Big Brother house... Except we’re actually in it. And it’s addictive after a while.” — Carlin Borisenko (14:28)

• Motivations for streaming range from activism to entertainment to community-seeking after personal trauma.

“It’s really like walking around inside social media — like we’re in the comments section in real life.” — Zoe Chase (20:25)

4. Escalation: The Feedback Loop (23:23–32:00)

• Streamers often directly instigate confrontations with protesters to get viral content—sometimes explicitly admitting it (25:42).
• Their presence increases tension; police confirm that the influx of streamers “contributed to an environment where tension and confrontation escalated” (31:24).
• Streamers and police have a conflicted relationship: streamers think Portland police are too soft; protesters think otherwise.
• National coverage, especially after streamer Nick Sorter’s arrest and subsequent DOJ investigation, puts pressure on police to crack down more—streamers see this as a “win.”

“Many of these individuals were creating content for audiences that reward intensity and conflict, which can sometimes amplify volatile situations.” — Portland Police Statement (31:24)

5. All The World’s a Stage: The Performative Protest (32:49–41:20)

• The show witnesses “Patriot Weekend”: streamers march to “Chandler’s” apartment, which is rumored to be “Antifa headquarters.” Shouting, streaming, and fake claims abound. Facts are distorted; spectacle prevails.
• Chandler, an ordinary activist, gives an impromptu oration about class struggle as streamers heckle him and record (“There is no left and right. There is only rich and poor. There is only powerful and powerless.” — Chandler, 37:34).
• The segment ends with the realization that “winning” is about amassing content and attention, more than any true political result.

6. Inside “Antifa Headquarters”: Reality vs. Online Myth (43:29–58:20)

• Zoe Chase and crew visit Chandler’s apartment, rumored by streamers as "Antifa safe house" and “headquarters.” Inside, it's a bare-bones activist’s home—books, leftover supplies, and a sign threatening cameras and guns (which are fake).
• Chandler is not an “antifa leader.” He explains: antifa is not an organization but an ideology—there is no leader, no command structure (45:16).
• His internet nemesis (streamer Velire) branded Chandler “Antifa leader” for clicks; others repeated it (48:27).
• Chandler describes the psychological toll of being targeted, and the odd intimacy of the protest scene. He was radicalized in part by his experience with the 2008 crisis (his father, a Merrill Lynch employee, lost everything).

“My dad worked at AIG Merrill Lynch... lost everything and then went crazy and became a crippling alcoholic. And then I just didn’t really see him very much ever again.” — Chandler (52:06)

“You can’t help feeling like this is so performative and absurd that even the menacing moments are just part of a drama they invented to keep whoever’s watching watching on social media entertained. It’s cartoonish, it’s over the top.” — Zoe Chase (39:59)

• Chandler sometimes fights with right-wing streamers (physically or verbally), knowing he’s feeding their content—but hopes some viewers are persuaded by his points (55:28).

7. The Broader Impact: Myth-Making and Policy (58:01–59:24)

• The constructed narrative of a city under siege by organized “antifa” serves as a justification for sweeping, new federal crackdowns—DOJ, FBI, DHS, and others targeting the left.
• In reality, the scope of the “conflict” is minuscule, interpersonal, and intensely performative—a handful of people acting out roles night after night.
• The episode closes by noting that Portland’s block has mostly quieted—the spectacle has moved on—while the national policy impact lingers.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

(With speaker attribution and timestamps)

• “It’s a complete lie. There’s lots of violence going on. I mean, these people are very dangerous and they’re unhinged.”
  — Nick Sorter, on Fox News (04:02)

• “This network of Antifa is just as sophisticated as MS-13, as ISIS, as Hezbollah, as Hamas, as all of them.”
  — Kristi Noem, Head of DHS (05:18)

• "We’re in a reality show right now... It’s like the Big Brother house... Except we’re actually in it. And it’s addictive after a while."
  — Carlin Borisenko (14:28)

• “It’s really like walking around inside social media — like we’re in the comments section in real life.”
  — Zoe Chase (20:25)

• “Yeah, I grabbed a leaf blower. I moved it 50 ft down here.”
  — “Okay, so you just moved it...”
  — “Oh, I just did it to piss him off.”
  — Ryan (Streamer) and Zoe Chase (25:42)

• “That is exactly how many of the streamers... feel: that even if Trump is in office, there’s a double standard when it comes to the left and enforcement... If the protester responds with aggression, well, that’s just revealing who they are. It’s fair game.”
  — Zoe Chase (27:05)

• “Many of these individuals were creating content for audiences that reward intensity and conflict, which can sometimes amplify volatile situations.”
  — Portland Police Statement (31:24)

• “There is no left and right. There is only rich and poor. There is only powerful and powerless. You are among the powerless. We are among the powerless.”
  — Chandler (37:34)

• “My dad worked at AIG Merrill Lynch... lost everything and then went crazy and became a crippling alcoholic. And then I just didn’t really see him very much ever again. Which was fine because I never really saw him very much to begin with.”
  — Chandler (52:06)

• “You can’t help feeling like this is so performative and absurd that even the menacing moments are just part of a drama they invented...”
  — Zoe Chase (39:59)

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• 00:00–04:19: Ira Glass sets the stage (“making of” movies; myth of Portland).
• 05:18: Kristi Noem likens Antifa to foreign terrorist networks at White House event.
• 12:00–16:00: Reporters arrive at Portland protests, describe the one-block “battlefield,” introduce streamers.
• 23:23–25:46: Streamers provoke protesters; motivation for escalation.
• 31:24: Portland police describe the effect of live streamers (“reward intensity and conflict”).
• 32:49–41:10: “Patriot Weekend,” confrontation at Chandler’s apartment, speech on class.
• 43:29–53:09: Inside “Antifa safe house”; Chandler’s life, background, and the false leadership narrative.
• 55:24–58:20: Chandler explains why he confronts streamers and how it sparks additional content/fights.
• 58:01–59:24: Ira Glass, Zoe Chase, and Suzanne Gabber wrap up; the smallness of Portland’s “war” versus the vast policy impact.

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Conclusion

The episode reveals the gulf between Portland’s reputation as a domestic warzone and the reality of a block-sized, performative standoff, driven by the incentives of online content creation.
On the ground, the conflicts are marked more by performance, spectacle, and repetition than by organization or consequence. Yet, amplified by national media and incentivized by federal policy, these stories take on outsize power in shaping American policy and imagination.

The myth becomes the fuel for reality—however small, absurd, or cartoonish the “making of” behind the headline may be.

Transcript

[Ira Glass]

This message comes from NPR sponsor Capella University. Interested in a quality online education? Capella is accredited by the Higher Learning Commission. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at capella. Edu A quick warning. There are curse words that are unbeeped in today's episode of the show. If you prefer a beeped version, you can find that at our website, thisamericanlife.org this American Life Myra Glass We've been talking here at the radio show recently about a certain genre of movie which is the making of movie. A movie about the making of another film, usually a much more famous one. A classic is Hearts of Darkness, which is a making of documentary about the film Apocalypse now, which has footage of the director Francis Ford Coppola's wife Eleanor shot at the time the movie was being filmed. Plus incredibly, these recordings that she made of her husband without him knowing it, where he's talking about his self doubt, his despair.

[Nick Sorter]

This film is a 20 million dollar disaster.

[Ira Glass]

I'm thinking of shooting myself. There are candid moments with the actors, Dennis Hopper, Laurence fishburne, who was 14 years old when they were making that film. Martin Sheen, who plays the main character, has a heart attack when they're there, 36 at the time. Marlon Brando, the film's most expensive star. At some point, Coppola realizes that Brando has not read the book that the movie is based on, Heart of Darkness, so he does not get who his character is, that he's being paid a million dollars a week. And all throughout there are hints and glimpses of what's really happening in reality in the place that they're filming this movie. They're in the Philippines where a US Supported autocrat is fighting a war against a communist insurgency. The movie's helicopters are US Made choppers flown by pilots in the Philippine military who keep getting pulled away to go back to the real war.

[Nick Sorter]

Wait a second.

[Ira Glass]

Stand by. We just heard that taking away five of our helicopters. The film Apocalypse now is about Vietnam, but it's a big mythic version of Vietnam full of larger than life characters. The making of film reveals the normal sized people building this grand cathedral brick by brick. You see the ridiculous lengths everybody had to go through to create their pretend war and their fake impossible Vietnam. Which brings me to today's radio show. Today's show is a making of a different kind. It's people creating a picture of a place and a war that's happening there. And that place is Portland, Oregon. We're going to talk about Portland As a concept, what the city has come to mean in this political moment. Back in September, you may remember President Trump declared on Truth Social that he was going to send troops into what he called war ravaged Portland to protect ICE facilities there that were, quote, under siege from attack by antifa. Broken came to his attention. He said by chance, you know, that.

[Nick Sorter]

Was not on my list, Portland, but when I watched television last night, this has been going on.

[Ira Glass]

Protesters had actually been outside the ICE facility since June, but Fox News the night before had run a story about Portland. And one thing about Fox's coverage, including that story, is that Fox's coverage includes lots of footage of protesters that is not filmed by professional TV news crews, but by the real auteurs behind the right wing's idea of what Portland is. These are right wing citizen journalists who've been there at the protests, covering them more than anybody, especially live streamers who were there. These are people who believe in Trump, believe in ice, who streamed from the Portland protests saying that their lefty local government was soft on the protesters, letting antifa run amok. Live streaming on YouTube and X.

[Zoe Chase]

All these people right here are the.

[Mike Ross]

Antifa of Portland, all in black.

[Nick Sorter]

You come back, I'm gonna fucking smoke you, dude.

[Zoe Chase]

Really? Yeah.

[Ira Glass]

Some of the citizen journalists became regular guests on Fox talking about this.

[Nick Sorter]

For people who say that there's not violence going on in front of these facilities, what do you say?

[Ira Glass]

It's a complete lie. There's lots of violence going on. I mean, these people are very dangerous and they're unhinged. Just the other night and a week and a half after the President declared Portland to be war ravaged and under siege, he invited these streamers to the White House for a roundtable on antifa. It was remarkable.

[Nick Sorter]

At least three of these courageous journalists have personally been victims of antifa attacks.

[Ira Glass]

Trump sat at the center of a U shaped table, about a dozen of these reporters and streamers for an hour and a half. And flanking Trump at the table and his immediate left and right was the full political and law enforcement firepower of the federal government. Kristi Noem, head of the Department of Homeland Security, head of the FBI Kash Patel, Attorney General Pam Bondi, Secretary of State Marco Rubio after the President's opening remarks, Kristi Noem, head of dhs, fresh off the plane from Portland herself. Talk directly to the streamers.

[Zoe Chase]

I want to thank the new journalists here today for telling their stories and for being able and willing to go to the streets and to cover what's happening here in America. Many Times the legacy media has looked the other way, refused to tell the stories and how this network of Antifa is just as sophisticated as Ms. 13, as TDA, as ISIS, as Hezbollah, as Hamas, as all of them.

[Ira Glass]

When the streamers spoke, it was in apocalyptic terms about Antifa. This supposed global network of anti government, anti fascists, dreamers talked not just about being personally assaulted by Antifa protesters, but putting their lives on the line every day. When Streamer said that, she genuinely believed that if the President had not declared war on Antifa, people at this table would have been killed in Portland. Here's one of the best known citizen journalists covering Portland, Nick Sorter. He's been on Fox a bunch, frankly.

[Chandler Patey]

The cities and police departments are cooperating with antifa such as Portland. It's sickening. I've seen it firsthand, obviously. And President Trump, you mentioned that flag. So remember, you put out a truth right after I.

[Nick Sorter]

That's right.

[Chandler Patey]

I took this flag from that, from that man that was burning it in the streets.

[Nick Sorter]

Do you know who he is?

[Chandler Patey]

Oh, yeah, I know exactly who it is.

[Nick Sorter]

So why don't you give it to Pam, give it to the Attorney General and let's start prosecutions.

[Ira Glass]

The Attorney General, Pam Bondi, pipes in at that point to say she's already started an investigation. The purpose of all this, the point the administration was making with this event was that in Portland, these streamers and citizen journalists were proving that the threat to America from Antifa is real and that a massive nationwide hunt was called for. And this didn't just mean sending troops into American cities like Portland, it also meant treating Antifa as a domestic terror organization. The President had just named it that, and he ordered the National Joint Terrorism Task Force to create a national strategy to investigate and prosecute them with the FBI, the Justice Department and other agencies, and to go after left wing groups that it says are funding political violence. A speaker at this roundtable named some of them, like George Soros, Open society, foundations, organizations, who of course deny doing any such thing. Since then, prosecutions are underway. Just this week, the FBI claimed to have disrupted a bomb plot in Southern California by anti capitalist anarchist leftists with a group called the Turtle Island Liberation Front. To be clear, there is no question that there are violent leftist groups in our country, just like there are violent groups on the right. But there were already laws in place and law enforcement going after them. That has been one of the FBI's jobs forever. This is a new kind of crackdown at a new scale, targeted only at political violence on the left. America is a big country. We all, from the President on down, rely on images and words from other people to understand what's going on elsewhere. And a vision of Portland, a movie about Portland. It's a place that's war ravaged, a hub for antifa, ripe for military intervention. That story promulgated by these streamers and citizen journalists amplified on right wing TV and social media. That story is justification for all these law enforcement policies all over the country today. Along with another story, of course, the assassination of Charlie Kirk. We wanted to see Portland for ourselves. We wanted to see the making of this story about what Portland is. The reality, the behind the scenes turns out not just to be very different, but a lot more interesting than the thing that they're filming and the story that they're telling. Stay with us. It's word for this American life and the following message come from AT&T. AT&T believes that hearing a voice can change everything. Whether it's a favorite podcast, saved voicemail or a call with someone close, familiar voices can bring connection and comfort. This holiday season, AT&T encourages the sharing of voices through a call, a voicemail or a voice note. Because every conversation can create lasting connection. AT&T connecting changes everything. This message comes from Apple Card. Apple Card members can earn unlimited daily cash back on everyday purchases wherever they shop. This means you could be earning daily cash on just about anything, like a slice of pizza or a latte from the corner coffee shop. Apply for Apple Card in the Wallet app to see your credit limit offer in minutes. Subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City branch terms and [e-mail] this is American Life. Act one living the American stream. Okay, so some basic facts before we head off to Portland. The way the President has described Portland, it might sound like an entire city under siege, but I think the first thing we need to clarify in this making of is that the entire conflict between protesters and police, the entire war, is happening on exactly one city block outside an ICE facility. Pretty much every day since June, protesters have been there opposing President Trump's immigration policies. Like other protests around the country, the level of violence directed towards ICE is mostly blocking and slowing down their vehicles that are coming in and out in small scuffles where federal police fire, tear gas and pepper balls. There was one day in June when things flared up and were declared a riot. Protesters rammed a stop sign through a glass door, hit a nights agent in the head with a rock. But that day was kind of a one off what it's been since then. On any given day, it's anywhere from a half dozen to 200 people with music, chanting bullhorns. During the daytime, it can have a kind of carnival performance art vibe, a street salsa class, people in inflatable frog costumes. There's a guy dressed like Bob Ross with an easel and a palette doing an oil painting of the ice officers. But then at night, it can get more confrontational with ice. Sometimes protesters have burned American flags, graffitied outside the building, shot fireworks. And it gets confrontational between the protesters and the streamers who mix it up with them. Usually they're anywhere between just a few streamers to maybe 30 or so. It gets really noisy and disruptive, and people living near the ice facility complain to police about the noise. And while and when the streamers and citizen journalists say that the Portland police have let all this happen, there's truth to that. They haven't stopped protesters from blocking sidewalks or surrounding and delaying ice vehicles. They've allowed them to make noise. The judge ruled that it was okay. That was the state of things when one of our producers, Zoe Chase, flew to Portland in October with another producer, Suzanne Gabber. Here's their story.

[Zoe Chase]

When we got there, it'd been about two weeks after the White House Roundtable about Portland and Antifa. We got there after 10 on a Saturday night, late October. It was cold and rainy, but there are a lot of people out here wandering up and down the sidewalk. And it's not grimy protesters dragging furry tails in the mud, dancing to I Will Survive or whatever. I was picturing the campy antifa Portland protest scene to be at this point, what we walk into is more like a Trump rally. I want you to picture this is one long block with an ice facility on one side and a tall apartment building on the other. Two long sidewalks, a big street in the middle that leads to the old spaghetti factory. People are swarming both sides of the street, even late at night like this. There are a bunch of city cops in yellow slickers standing around and all these people wandering around with their phones on long selfie sticks, talking into the phones and talking to each other. Some of these people sue and I recognize from the White House Roundtable or from appearances on Fox, but mainly I have no idea what I'm looking at. So we meet up with this one valuable streamer. She calls herself an analyst, Carlyn Borisenko. 128,000 subscribers on YouTube, and she's just pointing people out to us.

[Mike Ross]

The guy in a mask is a MAGA guy the guy with the yellow hat right there is antifa. The guy with the flag is antifa.

[Zoe Chase]

Normally Carlin's streaming from home. She's kind of a commentator about the streamers. She'll have like four different live videos up from four different live streamers. And it's like camera one, no camera two. While walking you through what or who to watch in the videos. Carlin's a recovered lefty now, very much on the right. She considers herself an antifa expert. She knows all these right wing streamers and influencers, so she's a good person to follow around.

[Mike Ross]

Well, JD Delay is there. He's got like 1.6 million subscribers on YouTube. He's in the camo hat.

[Zoe Chase]

I also spot Nick Sorter, 1.3 million followers on X Cam Higbee. 216,000 YouTube subscribers. They were both at the White House.

[Mike Ross]

So like a lot of people out here, it's kind of like they're just showing what's happening. And I think a lot of people out here are trying to get the best footage they can, regardless of what side they're on and what do they.

[Zoe Chase]

Why do you know what I mean? Like why it's not as though it's not covered.

[Mike Ross]

We're in a reality show right now and you can see the reality show from that angle or that angle or down there, you know, I mean, I watch the live streams for hours and hours of time on my YouTube channel when I'm at home. And it's like you have all these different angles. You can skip around, see what's it's like, you know what it's like. It's like the Big brother house where you can go in the kitchen or the bedroom just to kind of spy on people. Same thing, except we're actually in it. And it's addictive after a while. It's like you start, there are characters in this story. There are people that are here all the time. So you get kind of like endeared to some of them.

[Zoe Chase]

There's a reason so many right wing streamers are in the same place at the same time. The weekend that we're here, since the White House Roundtable, more and more of these streamers have been showing up here. Then recently, the anti ice protesters did this thing which was put up a poster with a bunch of right wing influencers, faces and handles and real names on it saying don't take the bait. Meaning like don't give these guys content that they'll use as propaganda. They, the streamers saw that and were like, okay, well, we're now all gonna come at once, and we're gonna make a lot of videos of you weirdos. And they're calling it Patriot Weekend. Some people are just standing around smoking and talking in the rain. And then these big circles form out of what seems like nowhere, with people pushing and yelling like a playground fight.

[Nick Sorter]

We ain't listening to that pedophile music.

[Zoe Chase]

With all these other people jostling to film the fight in the middle of the circle, which is a yelling fight, to be clear, usually not a fist fight. And the people inside the circle are filming themselves being filmed and streaming that live to their followers. It's a circle of people and phones in a fight. I walk up to a group like this, try to push my way inside to see what's in the center. It looks like a dude in a bulletproof vest streaming a video of himself yelling at a guy with a Captain America shield.

[Nick Sorter]

Stolen valor. We just proved it.

[Zoe Chase]

It's disgusting.

[Nick Sorter]

You're a liar.

[Zoe Chase]

Apparently, thousands of people are watching this online right now. Carlin and I elbow our way into a different crowd, but at the center, nothing's happening. It seems like some fight has just ended, and the streamers who are watching the fight start talking to each other about whatever that fight was about. It's funny. Like, now they're just doing, like, a talk show of what just happen and that.

[Mike Ross]

And that happens a lot. It's like it's one of those things again. It's like it's a spectacle, right? You know, there's something going on over here, but then you get to run over there, and maybe you get to provoke something over here, and you just never know what's going to happen.

[Zoe Chase]

You know, I am hippie maga.

[Ira Glass]

I'm different.

[Zoe Chase]

This is another rando chiming in. He's dressed like the dude from the Big Lebowski in a full robe with beads. What's hippy maga?

[Ira Glass]

Just about trying to connect, and I'm.

[Chandler Patey]

Trying to make more agreements than trying.

[Ira Glass]

To win through domination.

[Nick Sorter]

Like.

[Ira Glass]

Like in a debate.

[Chandler Patey]

Instead of winning the debate by winning the debate, I'm trying to have a conversation.

[Ira Glass]

Okay.

[Zoe Chase]

Yeah, yeah. So are you out here talking to people who disagree with you? Is that your plan? I do. I do.

[Chandler Patey]

I just talked to whoever. Basically, yeah.

[Ira Glass]

Got interviewed by the Crow earlier over there.

[Nick Sorter]

Who's the Crow?

[Ira Glass]

I have no idea. Some Internet crowd.

[Zoe Chase]

Lots of handles flying around that I don't know. Carlin looks around. Is there something people are, like, waiting for now? Like, what is everyone doing Here, you know what I mean? It's like 10:30. It's really cold and rainy.

[Mike Ross]

Yeah. Well, you can see something's about to happen over there. It looks like a whole bunch of people are walking over there. So I don't know what's about to happen, but let's go see. Oh, everyone is just standing around with their phones. Yeah.

[Zoe Chase]

Because it's like if there's nothing, if there's no fight at some point, then there's nothing really to film.

[Mike Ross]

Yeah.

[Zoe Chase]

Like at some point something has to happen or there's nothing to see.

[Mike Ross]

And you know what I've kind of seen is it's like.

[Nick Sorter]

And we're putting out their shame on you.

[Mike Ross]

Okay.

[Zoe Chase]

Shame, Shame.

[Mike Ross]

Pam is a crazy person and she likes to come and yell.

[Zoe Chase]

You're not a psychologist. Now someone comes up and starts scolding Carlin, an older lady infamous on X. The MAGA granny. She went to prison for storming the Capitol on January 6th. But she's flipped and now she's at every anti Trump event you can think of. The right wingers call her Pam Tifa.

[Mike Ross]

I don't even know what you're talking about. What are you upset about, Pam?

[Zoe Chase]

The big streamers can have tens of thousands of of people watching them at one time depending on what's going on. And they make real money from that. From paid subscribers. Fans tip them in real time. One streamer out here tonight. He got into this after streaming Fortnite. This pays more, he told us, being out here. Another streamer. Tommy Boy quit his job in local government. He says he makes more money streaming, but most streamers are more like Mike Ross, an out of town streamer. I followed him around for hours. He says he made money on crypto. So this is a hobby for him, not a job. Not yet anyway. He's a very tall white guy in a big brown sweatshirt with a phone on a tripod so he can film from really high up. He's a mental health advocate and a disabled veteran. He goes by Mentally Idaho on X. He's relatively new here. Relatively few followers. 6,000. His vibe is high school football coach.

[Chandler Patey]

I flew back this weekend for Patriot weekend and just filming and live streaming and trying to get angles that other people don't get because my I can do this and record what other people can't do.

[Zoe Chase]

Yeah, you have like a big fish pole. You can get up really high. Plus you're tall.

[Chandler Patey]

Yeah. So I kind of do stuff like that. What do you think of all the chaos?

[Zoe Chase]

I just got here. Honestly, but you don't have an answer.

[Nick Sorter]

I don't have to answer, you dumb fuck.

[Chandler Patey]

Just ignore it.

[Zoe Chase]

Mike said this thing about the way people talk to each other here, how mean and juvenile and graphic and vulgar it is. It's really like walking around inside social media like we're in the comments section in real life. Remember, every person streaming here is not alone. They have this invisible mob surrounding them, sometimes animating them like a video game avatar. Mike's chat points him in various directions, saying, go here, go there. Collaborating and making things happen that turn into content. While I'm there with Mike, one of the streamers gets arrested and his wife is really upset. Mike tells her they're gonna get help from the chat.

[Chandler Patey]

Say it again.

[Zoe Chase]

They said that he might have to pay bail to get out.

[Chandler Patey]

Okay, people want to know how to give money. So in a minute, we'll walk down to Tommy's chat and you can talk to both chats about that.

[Nick Sorter]

Okay?

[Chandler Patey]

You have a Venmo or cat? Okay, we'll get you set up.

[Zoe Chase]

My phone's about to die.

[Chandler Patey]

Hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on.

[Nick Sorter]

Check this out.

[Chandler Patey]

USB C or lightning? There you go.

[Nick Sorter]

Whoa.

[Chandler Patey]

There you go. Breathe. Do me a favor and take some deep breaths.

[Zoe Chase]

Mike sees himself as a helper. He got into activism around mental health issues after a hospital staff, he says, medicated him against his will. He's been diagnosed with ptsd.

[Chandler Patey]

Severe, complex PTSD comes from a life of trauma. So ever since I was like, I have borderline personality, ever since I was a kid, I've been traumatized, I've been abused, I've been picked on, I've been beaten. So my whole life, and I go become a Marine and learn to stand up for myself, stand up for other people. You stand up for the weak, for the vulnerable. So that kind of propelled me into use my abilities and my skills to help people.

[Zoe Chase]

A lot of people I talk to out here had oddly similar stories. Tough childhood and then some life defining, very American trauma that seemed to explain what they were doing down here. The war in Afghanistan, the financial crisis, the COVID lockdowns, January 6th. And each of these people seem to find an antidote of sorts to those events via the streaming thing recording this real life live action political video game. Being one of the good guys, finding a community of people not just online, but in real life, but in an online sort of way. A little audience who cares about what you care about and thinks what you're doing is important. For example, like with Mike, he's not getting along with his wife right now. Talks about that openly with his chat. She doesn't want him here streaming. She thinks he could get himself into some kind of vigilante violence situation. Mike is like, that's not me. And the chat is supportive. They ask questions. They talk about their lives. Mike's reading the comments out loud.

[Chandler Patey]

I was filing in the drain. It took a big family push, but I got help. I'm still here. Still had some very rough times, but I'm still here. That's awesome, man.

[Zoe Chase]

See, that's in the chat. Some streamers are very committed to documenting. Like Mike. Some people come here to argue with the other side. Some are in it for the thrill of it. Like a streamer named Mo told me he used to be addicted to method, but now he's addicted to streaming. Some people are trolls. They're here to rile the protesters up into doing something that makes them look dumb or violent. Something fascinating. That happens, though, when you're watching those guys is lots of times they're trying to prove that the protesters are the cause of the violence. But in fact, when you look at the footage, often what the footage reveals is exactly the opposite. It shows clearly that some of the violence would not be happening at all if the streamers weren't there. Here's an example from the night that we were there. Before we got there, these guys, Ryan and Cam, were filming themselves, tried to come into this canopy tent. The protesters set up on the sidewalk as a sort of home base. A protester in a black helmet with a red anarchist sticker on it steps in front of them.

[Nick Sorter]

Hey, guys, no fascists allowed.

[Ira Glass]

Good thing I'm not a fascist.

[Zoe Chase]

A protester in a fuzzy skeleton suit glares at them. I'm getting medical treatment, she says to the phones looming over her.

[Ira Glass]

What are you getting treated for?

[Nick Sorter]

Herpes.

[Zoe Chase]

And then in a sort of I'll huff and I'll puff and I'll blow your house down move, Ryan and some streamers just bust through the tent as a group to make the point that this is a public sidewalk. Which it is. They are correct. But a guy in shark pajamas is almost knocked to the ground. As everyone spills out of the tent altogether, you hear the protesters cry assault. And Ryan says he got maced and pours water on his face. Later, Ryan took a leaf blower from the protesters supplies and moved it down the street. A asked him about what he was doing. What's the idea behind what he's even doing? You took a leaf Blower.

[Chandler Patey]

Yeah, I grabbed, I grabbed a leaf blower. I moved it 50ft down here.

[Zoe Chase]

Okay, so you just moved it into.

[Chandler Patey]

Oh, I just did it to piss him off.

[Zoe Chase]

Yeah. Yes, that's what I'm saying. Ryan's a former Trump campaign guy and a former college football player. He's big and broad. Ryan has a track record here. The Portland police have noted that he reported he'd been attacked by protesters. He was surrounded by more than 15 of them and then pepper sprayed while on the ground one time. And the police have also seen him, quote, antagonizing the protesters until assaulted, end quote. His X bio reads right wing provocateur.

[Chandler Patey]

For example, some guy goes, oh, f, you fascist. I'm like, oh, seriously? And I'll walk up in their face and get, and say, what do you want? And then they'll push me and I'll push them right back and they fall to the ground.

[Zoe Chase]

That's provocative. And then that leads to violence.

[Chandler Patey]

Out of entire summer, though.

[Zoe Chase]

So you don't think, even though you call yourself a provocateur, you don't think.

[Chandler Patey]

You'Re really provoking them with my, My physical actions, no. But my presence, yes. Yeah.

[Zoe Chase]

And is the point of that in order to make them react so that you can prove your point that they are violent?

[Chandler Patey]

It's to prove my point that they, they think they own the city. And my point, I do it to, you know, to take away their narrative that, you know, they can do whatever they want.

[Zoe Chase]

This is precisely exactly how many of the streamers and right wing influencers feel that even if Trump is in office, there's a double standard when it comes to the left and enforcement. The January 6th protesters were cracked down on and these protesters are not. So yeah, they might get in a protester's face face and taunt them or film them. If the protester responds with aggression, well, that's just revealing who they are. It's fair game. I want to pivot for a moment to say something about the cops. The cops are a great focus of the streamer's ire. They think the cops are in league with the protesters. They call them coptifa, say they don't arrest the protesters enough. The protesters would disagree. The night we were there, though everyone agrees was a big turning point. It seemed the cops were cracking down. In fact, hours before Suze and I showed up here, 30 of them had descended on the protesters tent and demanded its removal. The tent had been cleared before, but not like this. This time there was less warning than usual. And there was just so many police in general. People said there were a lot more police all of a sudden patrolling everything and issuing citations. And what made this happen, the streamers will tell you. A lot of it comes down to this one video of course, from early October, a video from Ryan actually featuring the most known, box ubiquitous guy down here, Nick Sorter. He got into a scuffle with protesters. He was filming them. One of them started yelling at him and then pushed him with an umbrella.

[Nick Sorter]

I will fuck your ass up. Get out of here.

[Zoe Chase]

Then a crowd formed and he got pushed into this hole. It's more like a huge dip in the ground covered in grass. It's called a bioswale. It's for rain runoff. Two of the protesters and Nick were arrested for disorderly conduct. Nick spent the night in jail. Donald Trump texted him, we are behind you 100%. Basically keep your head up like he was Tupac. Nick ended up released and not charged with anything. Immediately afterward, the Department of Justice, the Civil Rights division opened an investigation into quote, viewpoint discrimination by the Portland police. Nick himself has started the process to sue the Police Department for $10 million alleging systemic bias against conservatives, saying the department was riddled with antifa. Six days after the arrest, Nick and the other influencers were at the White House doing that roundtable. Yes. Anding the President's promise to send the National Guard into Portland to police this block because the police were not. And that got a ton of coverage on right wing media and that's why the streamers think the cops are acting differently tonight. Some of them, including Mike the vet from Idaho think the cops are scared of all this exposure.

[Chandler Patey]

All the streamers coming down here, just the pressure that's been built from it and you know, Fox News talking about them, they have to enforce the law and it has to be equally so it's brought, definitely, definitely changed things.

[Zoe Chase]

But why take Mike's word for it? Guess who showed up for Patriots Weekend? It's Nick Sorter himself. He's right here. What do you think, Nick? Do you think that like stuff like what happened to you changed what the police were doing?

[Chandler Patey]

I mean it sort of brought the, it brought nationwide attention to the issue, obviously that my intent was to bring nationwide attention to the issue, but not in that manner, not in the manner of getting arrested, not in the manner of being arrested. But I was on Laura Ingraham's show, I guess three hours before I was arrested. The fact that I had just done that hit and it was fresh and then I was arrested on that Thursday night and then that whole Friday was just non stop coverage of the arrest. Ever since then, I mean, they've pretty much been talking about it in at least one segment of each show every night. So, I mean, I've done probably six or seven primetime Fox hits.

[Zoe Chase]

Standing here on this block full of streamers, I just want to point out this is the dream. Saturation coverage with footage these guys filmed stamped with their handles. Anyway, after all the attention Nick got for his arrest, including the Department of Justice investigation into the Portland police, it seemed to the streamers that the cops were policing the protesters more strictly, like clearing the tent and everything. So we asked the police, were the streamers right? Were they policing differently after Nick's order? And they responded they were doing more enforcement, but for a different reason. Quote, if there was any change, it was in the crowd's behavior. We began to see an influx of streamers, the people who want to monetize this situation. Still quoting the police here, they went on. The increase in the number of live streamers and personalities in the area contributed to an environment where tension and confrontation escalated. Many of these individuals were creating content for audiences that reward intensity and conflict, which can sometimes amplify volatile situations. In other words, the live streamers made the protesters act up and the police cracked down on both of them. That is definitely not how the streamers interpreted things on this night. Certainly they just thought they were winning.

[Chandler Patey]

Foreign.

[Zoe Chase]

It's after midnight now. The streamers seem to be on a high. They've seen the cops clear the protesters tent. The cops seem to be listening to them. They're filled with this we're winning adrenaline. They want to do something. So they start this march down the street towards this apartment. Something like three, 30 odd people marching with their phones aloft, yelling someone's name. Chandler. Chandler. They open the door to this guy's apartment. It just opens, which is shocking to see and feels a little scary. Like, is someone gonna get dragged out and beat up in some soccer hooligany way?

[Nick Sorter]

Chandler. Chandler.

[Zoe Chase]

I find myself next to Chad Kayton, the guy in a bulletproof vest who is yelling about stolen valor before we're just a few feet back from the apartment door. He's streaming as we're talking, which is always how it is. What's going on here?

[Nick Sorter]

So Chandler has been operating the antifa out of here. They've been running this neighborhood. And these patriots have had enough.

[Zoe Chase]

They're taking back their streets.

[Nick Sorter]

And this has been Chandler's. This is where they have attacked patriots and ran in here. This is a safe house and this is where Antifa hangs out here in Rose City.

[Zoe Chase]

A lot of this stuff turns out not to be actual fact, but more like Chad's interpretation of things, which others would strongly disagree with, but he is speaking the way most streamers and influencers would about Chandler's apartment. That is Antifa headquarters. Another streamer, Nick Shirley runs up to Chad. Chad catches him and his viewers up with the not exactly true things that he told me.

[Nick Sorter]

They're just letting Chandler know that the bullying's done and they're taking back the streets. This is Rose City headquarters. It's a storefront because he's a trust fund baby and this is where they have their furry parties and all that. Really?

[Zoe Chase]

I'll just clarify. This is not a storefront. It's not the headquarters of Rose City Antifa. Chandler isn't a trust fund baby and there don't seem to be any furry parties here actually. But anyway, so this is the spot.

[Nick Sorter]

Where Antifa, what, they just their home base down here? Yeah.

[Ira Glass]

This is where they hide.

[Nick Sorter]

This is the safe house known as a safe house.

[Zoe Chase]

Are you a fast? Are you a fascist?

[Nick Sorter]

No.

[Zoe Chase]

At this point, Nick takes over from Chad, narrating for his live stream. He knows Chandler. A lot of the people watching his stream know Chandler. Any regulars who tune into the Portland scene down here know who he is.

[Mike Ross]

He honestly seems like a very.

[Ira Glass]

He's like a very normal person when you talk to him, have conversations. But he has been the most well known person for being the head of Antifa here in this part of Portland, Oregon.

[Zoe Chase]

So what are people doing outside his house right now? Yeah, well, Antifa's kind of been defeated.

[Ira Glass]

Today as they took down his encampment.

[Mike Ross]

So I think he wanted to see.

[Ira Glass]

What Chandler had to say and he was going to do anything about it.

[Zoe Chase]

Chandler pokes his head out the door. He looks like a sleepy, tousled blonde college kid who just rolled out of bed. He seems completely unfazed by the mass of shouting people and phones just outside his house. A few of his friends, the protester in the fuzzy skeleton suit, another in a keffiyeh and goggles, a couple in all black are hovering around him. Chandler stands in the middle of the open door and starts addressing the group of chanting, angry, excited, victorious people.

[Nick Sorter]

It is entirely to the advantage of the powerful to have us, the working class, blame the powerless. Does that make sense?

[Zoe Chase]

It is also very surprising to me to hear this Orson Welles type voice come out of this young person's mouth.

[Nick Sorter]

It is entirely to the advantage of the ruling class to convince you to blame the powerless, to blame the immigrants, to blame the left, to blame the right, to blame the rural farmers, to blame the liberals in the city, to blame the conservatives right.

[Zoe Chase]

He's ringed by streamers and phones, some of whom are just without comment, but a lot of whom are yelling at each other and teasing him. Because of the way Chandler talks, the whole thing feels just of another era, as though he's on a literal soapbox and people in bowler hats are on a cobblestone street booing and throwing tomatoes at him. But it's just phones bobbing everywhere and people narrating and arguing while he's talking.

[Nick Sorter]

So when your snap benefits from run out soon, when you go hungry, remember. It is the powerful. It is not the poor. It is the democrats. It is the Republicans. It is the ruling class. It is the rich. It is the people. What our economy does. Does that make sense? They own our industry. They own our fucking houses. They own the hours of your fucking life. Thank you, champ. There is no left and right. There is only rich and poor. There is only powerful and powerless. You are among the powerless. We are among the powerless.

[Zoe Chase]

People are starting to get restless, like, unsure what to do next since this Chandler catharsis seems to be getting old.

[Nick Sorter]

Still harboring terrorists after trying to gozzle.

[Zoe Chase]

Our knobs all night last night, eventually people do start wandering away from Chandler's house. Carlin is giddy. Is it fun, though?

[Mike Ross]

Yeah, it's a ton of fun. Aren't you having fun? Wasn't that fun?

[Zoe Chase]

Fun is not the word, but, like, you know, I'm looking for something to happen, and it was happening.

[Mike Ross]

Yeah, it's an adrenaline rush. It's like, this isn't this. This doesn't happen every day, right?

[Zoe Chase]

Yeah, but it does seem like you guys are, like, making. Actually, it does happen every day. It seems like people are making it happen every day.

[Mike Ross]

Oh, yeah.

[Zoe Chase]

I give my business card to the guy who's famous for dressing as a frog at these protests. He was acting as a bouncer. Can you just give this to him? The scene at Chandler's ends with a bunch of streamers taking group photos of themselves simultaneously with their phones.

[Nick Sorter]

Good job, boys and girls. You are all good kids.

[Zoe Chase]

It's like 30 people. Then some of them bring their phones close and bid fond farewells to their viewers online.

[Ira Glass]

I'll see you guys tomorrow. I love you guys.

[Nick Sorter]

We won tonight, baby.

[Chandler Patey]

We won.

[Nick Sorter]

We're doing it right now, so I'm gonna help I love you guys.

[Chandler Patey]

I'll make a post when I get home.

[Zoe Chase]

All the world's a stage and all the men and women merely players. You can't help feeling like this is so performative and absurd that even the menacing moments are just part of a drama they invented to keep whoever's watching watching on social media entertained. It's cartoonish, it's over the top. And this search for red antifa on this block can mean a random ice protester in a frog costume. It can mean that person who hit a right wing influencer with a flagpole and then ran away. But here's what else the word antifa now means in America. Partly because of the story the streamers are telling about Portland. There's a great smooshing that's happening now. Protest means antifa, Antifa means violence. And Antifa is rampant, organized, networked, well funded, and belongs in the sizzle reel with the much more famous foreign terrorist groups that Americans all know. Remember DHS head Kristi Noem at the White House roundtable with the streamers? This network of antifa is just as sophisticated as Ms. 13, as TDA, as ISIS, as Hezbollah, as Hamas, as all of them. So let's go inside the Antifa safe house, see for ourselves and talk to the head of Antifa, so called. After the break, the frog guy gets us in.

[Ira Glass]

Zoe Chase Coming up, Chandler's apartment. Could you be any more excited? That's in a minute on Chicago Public Radio when our program continues. Support for this American Life and the following message come from AT&T. AT&T believes hearing a voice, especially a familiar voice, can change everything. It's why people love a good podcast or save voicemails from loved ones. AT&T encourages you to share your voice over the holidays. Send a voice note, leave a voicemail or call someone. That conversation is a chance to say something they'll hear forever. AT&T connecting changes everything Support for this American life comes from Superhuman, the AI productivity suite that gives you superpowers everywhere. You work with Grammarly, mail and coda coming together. You get proactive help across your workflow so you can outsmart the chaos experience. AI that proactively helps you go from to do to done faster. Unleash your superhuman potential today. Learn [e-mail] podcast that's superhuman.com podcast. This message comes from Capital One. Capital One offers checking accounts with no fees or minimums. What's in your wallet terms apply. See capital1.combank for details. Capital1NA member FDIC. This is American Life from Hourglass. Today's show, the Making of. We're taking a look behind the scenes at the people who are creating a story about Portland that's fueling a national crackdown by the FBI, the Justice Department, treasury, the IRS, DHS. We've arrived at Act 2 of our program, Act 2, inside the safe house. Okay, so where we left off, our producers, Zoe Chase and Suzanne Gabber. We're trying to actually meet the so called leader of Antifa. We pick up our story a couple nights later outside his door. We've arrived.

[Zoe Chase]

Oh, we're here. The Antifa safe house. We're welcomed in. And the first thing we see is this sign that's posted right in front of the door. Three cameras and the second Amendment.

[Nick Sorter]

That's a lie.

[Zoe Chase]

Please don't. What does it mean?

[Nick Sorter]

It's supposed to imply that there are three cameras and also that I have a gun, but I have neither of those things. There are no cameras in here and I don't have a gun.

[Zoe Chase]

So why did you put it up?

[Nick Sorter]

To dissuade people from walking in and, you know. Yeah, doing weird dumb stuff.

[Zoe Chase]

Just a prop. No real guns. Like so much else around here. So, Chandler's apartment. It both looks like a safe house for a socialist and a dude living alone in his 20s. Two chairs, one desk kitchenette. He offered us tea and measuring cups. Two bookshelves, Science Fiction, Dune, Hitchhiker's Guide, Fahrenheit 451, Orwell, Vonnegut. But also the complete works of Rosa Luxembourg, the Rise and Fall of Swedish Social Democracy, psychology books. Chandler said he'd been planning to do cognitive behavioral science before he dropped out of college.

[Nick Sorter]

My name is Chandler Patey. I'm a carpenter and I guess I have an apartment that is right next to ice. And I am an activist and protester. And I can't call myself an organizer for this protest, but I do usually organize outside of this event because there's no organization on this one.

[Zoe Chase]

Okay, so are you the leader of Antifa?

[Nick Sorter]

Unfortunately not. Or rather fortunately not. Because first of all, obviously that doesn't make any sense. Antifa is not an organization. There are organizations that identify themselves as anti fascist. Right, but there are organizations that identify themselves as socialist or conservative and they aren't the entirety of that thing. So it just doesn't make any sense to say that you are the leader of conservatism or that you are the leader of socialism. Right, because it's an ideology. You can't be the leader of an ideology that doesn't make sense.

[Zoe Chase]

I think it's important to be as clear as I can about this question. What is antifa? There are organizations with the word antifa in their name. Steel City Anti Fascist League, Atlanta Anti fascists. One is famously from Portland, Rose City Antifa. It has a website, it has a flag. But the idea that all these different antifa groups or anarchist groups are connected with a funding stream and leadership, there's no public evidence that's true. That was the conclusion of the FBI during the first Trump administration. Trump's former FBI director famously said there are violent anarchist extremists who identify as antifa in this country. But he said it was an ideology, not an organization that the FBI could target. Self radicalized lone actors, he called them. The current Trump administration, the second one has obviously gone in a very different direction. So in this environment you probably wouldn't want to be publicly identified as antifa or the leader of antifa right now. So why are people calling you the leader of antifa?

[Nick Sorter]

Because there's this idiot named Velire who's a streamer. He's very dumb and I like, I tried really hard to be nice to him for a long time but he is just like, he's just so malicious and stupid. So you just like makes stuff up to be sensational, you know and he'll just like try and over dramatize the things that happened and sometimes that would include vilifying us.

[Zoe Chase]

I asked Veli about this and he said he's been filming Chandler for six and a half months and he stands by his claim about him 100%. I'd say Velire is like Chandler's Moriarty, his Lex Luthor, his Joker. Except Chandler has so many nemeses it's sort of hard to pick. Anyway, here's Velire's stream from a few weeks ago.

[Chandler Patey]

I'm following.

[Nick Sorter]

Chandler. Chandler, I love you. Chandler. Chandler, don't go. Chandler.

[Zoe Chase]

Someone in Belly Ray's chat posted, you're like Brando in Streetcar Name Desire right now.

[Nick Sorter]

Chandler.

[Zoe Chase]

Chandler, you just walked in a full circle. Initially when Valy Ray came around, Chandler would do the thing that he does. He talked to him, speechifying about political corruption and capitalism unbidden. And Chandler says at some point Beli just started calling him the leader of Antifa.

[Nick Sorter]

He started it and then other people started repeating it because it got them clicks, right? And then as that kept happening and then they found out that I live right here in the so called antifa safe house and then they came up with all sorts of weird fan fiction stories that got more clicks if you just say leader of Antifa in them. So, like, it didn't matter that it was me. They just wanted that word.

[Zoe Chase]

Well, you're a main character they needed. You were a main character in the story of the protest.

[Nick Sorter]

That's true. It is easier to, like, give a face to something to get more clicks, right? Yeah.

[Zoe Chase]

This is gonna sound facetious, but it's not. Was there anything actually flattering about that?

[Nick Sorter]

A little bit. It was like, a joke that my friends and I, like, we all thought it was hilarious at first, and then we realized that, oh, that's actually not funny anymore. And so now I actually get mad at my friends or other protesters in general if they, like, even joke about it anymore, because it's like, stop saying that. That's, like, really, really annoying. It makes me look super conceited if that joke continues. Right.

[Zoe Chase]

The other reason to get mad at this joke, of course, is that it seems it'd be dangerous to be called the leader of antifa by people who have a direct line to the White House and the director of the FBI. I'm surprised the FBI hasn't been here already. Or have they?

[Nick Sorter]

I mean, they're at ICE sometimes. I mean, there are people who claim to be FBI at ICE sometimes. And I have, like, been detained while the FBI was there. And then they talk to me and ask me, like, so how are you organized? And like, who's your leader? Is someone paying you? Which is all hilarious shit for the FBI to be asking, like, are you that? Are you incompetent? Are you stupid? Are you pretending to be stupid? Or do you think that I'm stupid? Like, which is it?

[Zoe Chase]

They're trying to get you to admit to being the leader of Antifa.

[Nick Sorter]

They ask it. They asked for a while. They would ask everybody those basically those same questions. Right. It was just really funny because it's like, obviously, you know, we're not being paid. What are you talking about? So can't you just, like, look at all of our private information? And then two alleged FBI agents gave me a brief interview where I didn't really answer any of their questions and just asked them how they feel about capitalism and, you know, corporate oligarchy and things, and just, like, disregarded everything they said. It was pretty funny.

[Zoe Chase]

You're playing into what they think is antifa. You know, when you go in there to an ICE facility and you're talking to DHS and you're talking about how we need to get rid of Rich people.

[Nick Sorter]

I say get rich, get rid of. Is not accurate though, right? Because I'm a democratic socialist. I like democracy, right? What we need isn't to just like go to the rich people with a small group of violent antifa rebels and then like kill them. That's dumb. That won't result in lasting change. What we need is to convince everyone, right, to like.

[Zoe Chase]

This next piece of economic analysis from Chandler is going to play differently to you once I tell you what his father did for a living. So just listen a little closer than you maybe were going to, okay?

[Nick Sorter]

Rich people hate us. They will do everything that they can to consolidate power, right? They will destroy the United States economy and therefore the global economy so that they can drive everybody out of business and then buy up fucking all of the shit that people need to sell for the lowest possible price and just keep consolidating power over and over and over.

[Zoe Chase]

Now, Chandler was a kid during the financial crisis of 2008 and he saw a very particular side of it in his own house.

[Nick Sorter]

So my family was started off being kind of wealthy up until. So my dad worked at AIG Merrill Lynch.

[Zoe Chase]

Oh, that O is the sound of someone thinking, oh, your dad was in the business of mortgage backed securities that crashed the economy 17 years ago when you were at a young and impressionable adolescent age. And now you're a committed socialist.

[Ira Glass]

Oh.

[Nick Sorter]

So and then was like a higher up, like a marketing director or some shit like that. And so we had like a pretty big house that like they built and like designed themselves because my grandpa's a structural engineer. My grandma is like a designer or like an interior designer or something. My mom also has a degree in interior design or something. And so they're pretty wealthy, not like super rich, but like pretty wealthy. But I don't know if you know, but in AIG Merrill lynch was one of the parties mainly responsible for the 2008 financial crisis. So when that happened, my dad lost everything and then went crazy and became a crippling alcoholic. And then I just like, didn't really see him very much ever again. Which was fine because I never really saw him very much to begin with. And he was kind of weird.

[Zoe Chase]

I'm sorry.

[Nick Sorter]

Oh, it's fine.

[Zoe Chase]

Just to say. Chandler denies his economic analysis comes from his personal experience. And he says it comes from observations about history. Fair enough. Nonetheless, Chandler does not like to talk about his family much. He says he doesn't really keep in touch with them. He grew up Mormon just outside Portland. His dad died earlier this year. He has found a family of sorts here at the ICE facility. Sorry if that's corny to say. While we were there for a few hours, people stopped by and changed their clothes, used the bathroom. Someone gave him $10 for the water bill. A big wagon of medical supplies was sitting in the middle of the furnitureless living room. People had dragged it here after the camp was taken down by the cops. Some helped themselves to beef soup Chandler had on the stove. Not the vegan, of course, who called it flesh soup. Chandler found a partner, a romantic partner down here at the protest. His first significant romantic partner ever. He says they came by for a second. In any case, Chandler has a sign up on his bedroom door that says don't go in my room. That's fucking weird. Implying that enough people came by and tried to go in his room that he had to put a sign up. Also, Chandler is autistic. He calls himself very, very autistic. And something that he attributes to his autism is, is his ability to talk and talk and talk very calmly to whomever's talking to him, however they're talking to him. Even if in my opinion it very much makes him look like the leader of Antifa. Like our night with the streamers, when he gave that press conference of sorts, standing in his doorway, I mean, you coming out was this incredible catharsis and they were talking to us like this was like spiking the football. It was a victory lap, like the camp was down and now they were teasing, bullying, yelling at the head of Antifa, at the Antifa safe house, wildly outnumbering him and making fun of him and his friends. And why would you give them that content?

[Nick Sorter]

The content that I'm giving them is good for me.

[Chandler Patey]

Why?

[Nick Sorter]

Because no matter how many people I like failed to convince, it is almost guaranteed that there is at least some people in their audience who responded positively to what I said.

[Zoe Chase]

How do you figure?

[Nick Sorter]

Yeah, because I have seen it. I go to their comment sections, I like look at their comment sections. I especially on Valy Ray's videos, there were so many of his fault of his viewers that actually were on my side.

[Zoe Chase]

So like you really think that the commenters on the live streams are turning into democratic socialists? Some of them.

[Nick Sorter]

No, no, no, that would be crazy. That would love that. But no, I can only convince them on one point at a time. Right.

[Zoe Chase]

Chandler isn't always so above it all, he admits he takes the beat sometimes and gets aggressive, physically aggressive. Which of course gives the streamers exactly what they're looking for. Which is footage of the violent antifa. He pulled up a video of a fight he definitely participated in with someone named Bean and that provocateur guy Ryan we talked about earlier. And someone else called Right side Rebel who has long, swishy blonde hair.

[Nick Sorter]

And then I get pulled off of Right side Rebel while Bean is being restrained. Everybody pulls me off of Right side Rebel and they let her go and attack Bean again. And then I restrain Right side Rebel again. And then the. It fizzles out after that. Right?

[Zoe Chase]

And like, don't you think, I mean, this is exactly what people are out there to stream. This is what they want to see.

[Nick Sorter]

There was a six more like, I don't know how many more fights that night, but. But yeah, afterwards I went and I apologized to Right side Rebel and you know, we like smoothed it over. I was holding you back. I apologize if it seemed like knocking your phone out. Actually. I apologize.

[Zoe Chase]

It was a very heated moment.

[Nick Sorter]

You guys just united the country.

[Mike Ross]

Oh my God.

[Nick Sorter]

So there was no reason for us to stay mad at each other. And then we like kind of. We were very friendly with each other and like had another interview with Right side Rebel afterwards just like. And we're like hugging and stuff, you know, showing that we are friends. Now.

[Zoe Chase]

Are you friends with Right side Rebel?

[Nick Sorter]

Friends is a strong word. But, you know, I was like friendly. Right.

[Zoe Chase]

Just again, so this clip is so easily. Could be on Fox and maybe has been on Fox and it's just, you know, it's like exactly, exactly what the administration wants to see in order to carry out their policies.

[Nick Sorter]

I absolutely regret this a lot. I was just so angry at Ryan.

[Zoe Chase]

It's so small and intimate, really, what's happening here.

[Nick Sorter]

Yeah, yeah, we like, we know all of these people well, most of them.

[Zoe Chase]

And it's like, it's so small. It is really something that it travels up all the way to the White House.

[Ira Glass]

Right.

[Zoe Chase]

The point is these people know each other. They're in the same cast. They perform the same play night after night on the same small set. They're like the dancers in west side Story coming out, dancing together on a city block, then going home to their respective neighborhoods until the next night when they're dancing, fighting in front of an audience again. These conflicts, these pint sized scraps on a street corner are not the sort of thing that in the past our government has sent the most powerful military in the history of the world to resolve. They're not the sort of fights that have led to anyone being labeled a domestic terror group, a top national security priority. Maybe there is evidence out there that antifa deserves that sort of treatment, but it's not in Portland, though. I love the smell of napalm in the morning. There's no war here.

[Ira Glass]

Zoe Chase is a producer on our show. Ann Gabber helped her report this story. In the weeks since they were in Portland in October, things have actually quieted down in front of the ICE facility. Fewer people out on the street. Some of the streamers have moved on to other cities and other issues. Well, our program was produced today by Nadia Raymond and Suzanne Gabber. It was edited by Laura Starcheski, Nancy Updike and me. The people who put our show together include Fia Bennen, Michael Comedy, Ruthy Petito, Katherine Raymondo, Stone, Nelson, Ryan Rummery, Ike Sri Khandaraja, Francis Swanson, Christopher Swutala, Marisa Robertson, Texter, and Julie Whitaker. Our managing editor is Sara Abderrahman. Our senior editor is David Kestenbaum. Our executive editor is Emmanuel Berry. Special thanks today to Nick Padani, Conrad Wilson, Troy Brynlson, Lillian Monjo Hughes, Faisa Patel and Phil Richard Kcow. I've said this before and I'm saying it again right now. If you sign up as a this American and life partner, you help us continue making the show. Plus, you get bonus episodes. The one that we just sent out a couple weeks ago and the one that we are about to send out, I am so proud of. These are such good episodes. You also get to listen ad free and you get an archive of greatest hits episodes conveniently right in your podcast feed. [e-mail] LifePartners the link is also in the show Notes. Thanks this week to life partner Mike Seton. This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by prx, the Public Radio Exchange. Thanks as always to our program's co founder, Mr. Tory Malatea. You know, hanging around with family for the holidays, he's been reading children's books to his nephews and nieces and he realized something reading Curious George.

[Mike Ross]

The guy with the yellow hat right there is Antifa.

[Ira Glass]

I'm in our glass. Back next week with more stories of this American Life.

[Nick Sorter]

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[Zoe Chase]

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[Zoe Chase]

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[Nick Sorter]

Terms apply [e-mail].