881: I Want What I Want

Summary

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This American Life – Episode 881: I Want What I Want

Date: February 22, 2026
Host: Ira Glass

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Overview

In "I Want What I Want," This American Life dives into the stories of people who deliberately choose paths or actions most of us consciously avoid. Whether it’s seeking out a bee sting, embracing personal gluttony, rekindling connections with exes, or making controversial decisions in a court of law, the episode examines what happens when people go after what they want—even when others wouldn’t. The stories are personal, touching, sometimes funny, and frequently surprising, all circling around the theme of pursuing desires against the mainstream.

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Act 1: The Boys and the Bees (00:42 – 08:49)

Key Discussion Points & Insights

• Ira Glass introduces a new film, "The Boys and the Bees," about a family of beekeepers in Georgia—particularly two sons, Carver (6) and Arrow (4), who approach beekeeping quite differently.
• Carver is careful and cautious, abiding by the rules, while Arrow is rambunctious and careless, having been stung many times; Carver, remarkably, has never been stung.
• The family deliberately spends abundant time together in nature, nurturing curiosity and resilience.
• A central, moving moment: Carver chooses to experience a bee sting for the first time, wanting to share an experience with his family.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• Carver’s Determination
  “Yeah, everybody been in...my family except for me.” (03:00, Carver)
• Father-Son Dialogue on Fear and Pride
  “I'm telling you right now, son, look at Daddy. It's going to hurt.” (04:18, Nehemiah Ray)
  “Just a little nervous.” (05:32, Carver)
  After the sting: “Do you wish you didn’t do it?...”
  “I still feel a little proud of myself.” (07:48, Carver)
• Reflections on Stepping Up “When you decide to do something that other people do not do, it makes you feel big.” (08:49, Ira Glass)

Timestamps

• 00:42 – Introduction of the "Boys and the Bees" film and family
• 02:10 – Build-up to Carver’s decision
• 05:02 – The bee sting moment
• 07:48 – Carver’s pride and reflection
• 08:49 – Ira Glass connects the story to broader episode theme

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Act 2: Lessons in Shellfishness – John Tothill on Gluttony (10:15 – 25:20)

Key Discussion Points & Insights

• Comedian John Tothill tells the story of Edward Dando, a 19th-century British oyster glutton: he’d eat enormous quantities of oysters publicly, refuse to pay, claim not to know restaurants needed payment, and consistently returned to his beloved oysters after release from jail.
• Tothill uses Dando’s story as a springboard to discuss gluttony versus greed, lamenting that society has lost the celebratory nature of gluttony in favor of joyless, optimizing greed.
• He shares his own brush with taking personal desire too far: after surviving malaria for a clinical trial, he nearly dies from ignoring appendicitis while performing at the Edinburgh Fringe, unwilling to cancel shows for his "gluttony for life."
• Argues that wholeheartedly embracing desires (like Dando did with oysters) can be a meaningful, even virtuous act—but also cautions listeners with the consequences.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Gluttony vs Greed
  “We don’t live in an age of gluttony. Not really... We live in an age of appalling greed.” (13:14, John Tothill)
• On Personal Near-Death
  “My appendix ruptured days ago and your appendix has now, in her words, obliterated.” (22:17, John Tothill recounting surgeon's words)
• On Living for Desire “Be an Edward Dando. Eat the cheesy chips, drink the champagne, refuse to go hungry in a land of plenty...” (24:50, John Tothill)

Timestamps

• 10:58 – John Tothill begins the story of Edward Dando
• 15:45 – Meditation on gluttony vs. greed
• 20:00 – Trial at the Edinburgh Fringe and medical crisis
• 24:50 – Closing rally to embrace desire

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Act 3: The Joy of Ex (25:55 – 42:19)

Key Discussion Points & Insights

• Evan Roberts embarks on a project to reconnect with all 17 of his exes, but it’s clear his real focus is on the "Big Ex," Keith, who’s spurned all previous attempts at reconnection.
• Their awkward, cathartic exchange (over Zoom) becomes a meditation on memory, regret, love’s endurance, and whether it's ever possible—or desirable—to be friends with exes.
• Evan learns that Keith’s dramatic "void card" was a deliberate attempt to cause pain; Keith, in turn, is surprised by his own emotions and by Evan’s persistence.
• Both men end up acknowledging regret for poor communication and lost friendship, ultimately finding a fragile sort of closure—and even tentative friendship.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Old Breakups “I feel like the relationship we had exists very much in the time that we were together. And so to revisit it, to me feels like going to a past life.” (28:33, Evan Roberts)
• On Closure
  "I have wanted you in my life since we broke up. I have needed you." (37:22, Keith, through tears)
• On Holding On
  "Maybe digging up all this old stuff with your exes isn't just a masochistic exercise." (41:09, Evan Roberts)

Memorable Exchange

• The Accidental Text
  Keith: "Oh, my God. See, this is the good thing about stalking somebody who doesn't understand their phone." (40:06)
• Resolution
  “He said Keith came through town. They didn't get dinner, but he's okay with it. He doesn't have any more questions for him.” (42:03, Evan Roberts)

Timestamps

• 25:55 – Introduction: the exes project
• 31:54 – Keith finally agrees to talk
• 33:12 onwards – The recorded conversation, misunderstandings
• 37:22–38:57 – Emotional climax, truth-telling, mutual regret
• 40:47 – Letting go vs. holding on
• 42:03 – Final update, closure

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Act 4: The Lawyer, the Judge, and the Wardrobe (44:18 – 59:47)

Key Discussion Points & Insights

• Zoe Chace reports on an explosive moment in federal court in Texas: a judge declares a mistrial in a high-profile antifa trial—not due to evidence, but a defense attorney’s shirt depicting civil rights leaders.
• The trial is already contentious, with a large jury pool expressing strong anti-ICE sentiments; the judge, visibly rattled by the political rifts, uses the shirt as grounds for mistrial.
• Chace and Ira Glass discuss the rarity of such a decision and consider whether the shirt was a pretext to restart jury selection due to jurors’ views.
• Ultimately, the story illustrates the impossibility of creating truly “neutral ground” in today’s polarized nation—even in the courtroom.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the Judge’s Frustration “There are very clear rules in this court about having demonstratives in the courtroom... and about what you’re wearing. That shirt has a politically charged message. … I have no choice but to declare a mistrial.” (53:07+, Zoe Chace quoting the judge)
• Judicial Lament “I’m disgusted by where America is today, how hopelessly divided we are over politics. … I don’t want my sons to fight in the next civil war.” (58:49, Judge, via Zoe Chace)
• Ira’s Sarcastic Takeaway “I think your big conclusion today is you're saying we are a very divided country.” (59:47, Ira Glass)

Timestamps

• 44:18 – Zoe Chace sets the scene, Judge Pittman’s showmanship
• 46:20 – Voir dire and unexpected anti-ICE sentiment from jurors
• 52:56 – Shirt controversy, judge erupts, mistrial declared
• 56:09 – Legal perspectives on mistrials
• 58:49 – Judge’s speech on national division
• 59:47 – Reflection on impossibility of neutrality in polarized times

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Episode Highlights & Memorable Moments

• Carver’s bee sting captures the combination of fear, curiosity, and pride in a child’s journey of self-discovery.
• John Tothill’s ode to gluttony standing against a culture of “optimization,” bringing humor and a brush with mortality.
• The emotional Zoom between Evan and Keith offers rare vulnerability, showing both the pain and hope possible in revisiting lost relationships.
• The shirt-induced mistrial—an offbeat, highly specific yet deeply symbolic moment about the challenges of fairness and neutrality in an era of political extremes.

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Conclusion

"I Want What I Want" vividly explores the emotional and moral complexity of going after one's wants—especially when doing so crosses social, emotional, or legal boundaries. From the intimacy of family rites of passage, through comic self-endangerment, to the radical hope of friendship after heartache, and all the way to the drama of a courtroom, the episode’s stories challenge listeners to consider: What do you want, and what might it cost to chase it?

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Transcript

[Ira Glass]

Support for this American life. And the following message come from Capella University. You know that feeling when there's a spark building inside you that you were meant for more? That's your own drive pushing you towards what's next. Capella University gets that with their flexpath learning format. You can set the pace and earn your degree without putting life on pause. You've built experience and know what you're capable of. Now this is your time to turn that momentum into more. The only real question is, what can't you do? Learn more at Capella Edu. A quick warning. There are curse words that are unbeeped in today's episode of the show. If you prefer a beeped version, you can find that at our website, thisamericanlife.org

There's a new film at that's in festivals called the Boys and the Bees, just won a prize at Sundance, and it's about a real family with two sons. The dad's a beekeeper in Georgia. And I talked to the filmmaker Ariel Knight. As she pointed out, the two boys are very different. Carver's six, Arrow's four.

[Producer or Narrator]

Arrow is the youngest, and he's kind of always bouncing around. He's comedic relief in the film. And Carver is the oldest, and he's a lot more serious, he's a lot more thoughtful.

[Ira Glass]

Carver's the one who reminds his little brother what the rules are. Arrow just breezes past them. And the way all this plays out in this family of beekeepers, Arrow has

[Producer or Narrator]

been stung many, many times by bees, and Carver has never been stung.

[Ira Glass]

And how do you explain that?

[Producer or Narrator]

I mean, you know, Carver is probably always paying attention, taking his time, moving slowly.

[Ira Glass]

Rules follower.

[Producer or Narrator]

Exactly. And the arrow just sort of puts on his suit too fast and there's a bee in there. Or, you know, he steps somewhere where he shouldn't, or he's just, you know,

[Ira Glass]

they have parents who have made a very deliberate choice to spend a ton of time with their kids. Bird watching and fishing and going through the woods and lifting up rocks to see what's underneath them, explaining everything about nature. And there's a scene that Ariel captured on film of the boys with their dad, Nehemiah.

[Producer or Narrator]

So we were wrapping up filming for the day, and Nehemiah usually in the evening, will check on the bees. So he's checking on the bees, he's lifting the racks of beehives out of their boxes and then he gets stung.

[Evan Roberts]

Ouch.

[Nehemiah Ray]

Ah, got me. You boys back up, though. You all don't have a suit on. And they just stung Me. So I don't want you to get stung.

[Carver or Arrow (children)]

But what does it feel like? It hurts so bad.

[Nehemiah Ray]

I mean, you can handle it.

[Producer or Narrator]

Carver creeps up to his dad and says something that I couldn't hear in the moment, but that Nehemiah repeats. And he says, you want to get stung?

[Carver or Arrow (children)]

Yeah, everybody been in my. In my family except for me.

[Nehemiah Ray]

I don't know if Mommy would want you to get intentionally stung. It kind of hurts, boy. It kind of hurts.

[Ira Glass]

I know that hurts.

[Nehemiah Ray]

Carver says, I can get the bee and put it on you, and it can sting you.

[Ira Glass]

Okay, could we just talk about that choice that he's making there?

[Producer or Narrator]

So Nehemiah has said multiple times that, you know, growing up, he'd always wished that the adults around him had been more curious about the things that he was curious about, the kinds of adventures that he was interested in getting into as a kid.

[Ira Glass]

And he also seems very awake to these little teachable moments.

[Producer or Narrator]

He's a total teacher, and he's always kind of trying to find the edge and helping his kids navigate things that are scary to them or that they never tried before that they're curious about.

[Nehemiah Ray]

I can get the bee and put it on you, and it can sting you. All right, well, let's do it.

[Carver or Arrow (children)]

Mommy got stunk. I got stung. Daddy got stung. You haven't got stung.

[Producer or Narrator]

So that's arrow in the background.

[Ira Glass]

Then Carver goes to his dad.

[Carver or Arrow (children)]

I just don't want to get stung in my face.

[Nehemiah Ray]

Yeah, me either. That's the worst. We'll let you get stung right here.

[Producer or Narrator]

So Nehemiah is pointing to Carver's forearm.

[Nehemiah Ray]

I'm telling you right now, son, look at Daddy. It's going to hurt.

[Carver or Arrow (children)]

Okay?

[Nehemiah Ray]

Okay. You sure you want to do it?

[Carver or Arrow (children)]

Go ahead.

[Nehemiah Ray]

Okay, my boy.

[Ira Glass]

I like it.

[Producer or Narrator]

Carver is starting to look a little bit concerned right now. And he gives his dad, like, a really weak high five.

[Nehemiah Ray]

Uh, black, burned out. Yeah. There we go.

[Keith]

I like it.

[Nehemiah Ray]

All right, let's do it. Which lucky girl are we gonna choose for my son?

[Ira Glass]

Oh, my God. So Carver's kind of, like, touching his arm where he's about to get stung. His dad goes off to get a B.

[Nehemiah Ray]

You ready? Tell me when you're ready. When you lift your arm up, then you'll be ready.

[Producer or Narrator]

So Nehemiah is holding a bee by its wings with the stinger pointed out.

[Ira Glass]

And then Carver has his arm kind of down, and his other hand is kind of, like, shielding it from his dad and the bee.

[Producer or Narrator]

And he keeps kind of wincing and jerking his Arm away in anticipation.

[Nehemiah Ray]

You ready? Good job. All right. It's all right. 3. Don't jump, don't jump, don't jump. And I'm gonna get it out, okay? I'm gonna get it out. You sure you want to, son? You're acting like you don't want to. Now, I know you're nervous.

[Carver or Arrow (children)]

Just a little nervous.

[Nehemiah Ray]

All right, Three. Relax. Relax. Son, you can't do that. You just have to let it happen, okay?

[Keith]

Something.

[Ira Glass]

It's so funny. He puts the bee on him, and the bee just won't do it.

[Nehemiah Ray]

Well, she doesn't want to sting, eh? Well, she didn't want to get. All right, let me get another one.

[Carver or Arrow (children)]

Dang.

[Nehemiah Ray]

You're just not a mean bee, huh?

[Carver or Arrow (children)]

You're just a nice, kind bee. You don't want anybody to get stung.

[Producer or Narrator]

That's the younger brother again, talking to the bee.

[Nehemiah Ray]

All right, here we go. Why you playing with my son? Okay, okay, okay, let me see.

[Ira Glass]

Okay.

[Nehemiah Ray]

Oh, see? Now, let's get it out. Let's get it out now.

[Announcer or Sponsor Voice]

See?

[Nehemiah Ray]

Ooh, Son, now you're making me feel bad.

[Producer or Narrator]

So Nehemiah kind of looks at me in this moment and I can see that there's a little bit of doubt in his eyes. He's kind of looking at me like, oh, man, I don't know if I did the right thing here. But then you can kind of see the moment he also snaps back into dad mode.

[Nehemiah Ray]

Come here, let me see. All right, now, wipe your tears off. Wipe your tears. Let me see it. Let me see it. Let me see it. Let me see it. Let me see it. Where is it at? Where was it? Okay, I got it out. Okay, good, good, good, good, good.

[Producer or Narrator]

Nehemiah's kneeling in front of Carver and he's kind of examining the bee sting and wiping his tears away.

[Nehemiah Ray]

Beekeepers get stung, right? You got your first one, my boy. High five. Now, let me see where it is. Now, let me see. I got it out, I promise. You want me make sure. Yeah, I got it out now. Yeah, that hurts. Do you wish you didn't do it? I can't hear you.

[Keith]

Huh?

[Nehemiah Ray]

You said what?

[Carver or Arrow (children)]

I still feel a little proud of myself.

[Nehemiah Ray]

You feel proud of yourself, boy? I'm proud of you.

[Ira Glass]

Can I say, I just really love how Carver, after he gets stung, is just not totally sure that he's glad he did it. And then he kind of, like, sits there and it stews in his brain for, like, a couple seconds, and then he decides, I'm gonna declare victory.

[Nehemiah Ray]

You should feel Proud of yourself for that. I've never met any kid, I've never met any kid that said my whole family been stung and I haven't. I want to get him. Look at mine. You see Daddy's right there.

[Producer or Narrator]

So the rest of the evening, you know, they go on to have dinner. Carver keeps glancing down at his bee sting. Sometimes he gives it a little stroke and it's kind of starting to swell up a bit at this point, but he's kind of beaming at it. He's a real beekeeper now. And like his dad said, beekeepers get stung.

[Ira Glass]

When you decide to do something that other people do not do, it makes you feel big. Today in our program, we have people choosing to do things that most of us, not only will we not do these things, most of us actively avoid these things the way that we avoid bee stings. We have stories today of oysters of love. We have a courtroom drama from WBEZ Chicago CIS American Life. I'm Ira Glass. Stay with us.

Support for this American Life comes from Redfin. You're listening to a podcast, which means you're probably multitasking, maybe even scrolling home listings on Redfin, saving homes without expecting to get them. But Redfin isn't just built for endless browsing. It's built to help you find and own a home. Redfin agents close twice as many deals as other agents. So when you find the one, you've got a real shot at getting it. Get [e-mail] own the dream.

[Producer or Narrator]

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[Carver or Arrow (children)]

Starting at $15 a month, make the [e-mail] Switch $45 upfront payment for three months.

[Producer or Narrator]

Five gigabyte plan equivalent to $15 a month.

[Carver or Arrow (children)]

Taxes and fees extra. First three months only. See terms.

[Ira Glass]

This is American Life. Act one, lessons in shellfishness. So John Tot has been thinking a lot about people who make personal life choices that are different from most. He did a whole show inspired by a man like that. A show where he talks about that man and tells a personal story. Also, Tato's a comedian. He's a British comedian. Quick note before he starts. He refers to two things in this story that not everybody knows about here in the States. He mentions the Edinburgh Fringe Festival. That's this big three week long performance festival in Europe where he happened to do this. And he refers to Rustler's Burgers, which Brits I guess know about. They are microwavable budget priced, ready made frozen burgers on buns. Here's John Tacko.

[John Tothill]

Hello, how are you all Doing you all right? It's so good to be here. And of course we've got to talk about Edward Dando, haven't we? Do we know about Edward Dando? Edward dando, the celebrated 19th century oyster glutton, Edward Dano. How do I tell you about. Okay, right, you know how on Wikipedia if you look something up on Wikipedia, Wikipedia has to purport to be objective, but like to a fault, you know, Wikipedia will be like, Adolf Hitler was an Austrian born German politician and you think, yeah, get on with it, come on, do you know what I mean? But if you look up Edward Dando on Wikipedia, Wikipedia says Edward Dando was a British thief. And it's like, okay, cancel my appointments for the afternoon. So, Ibut Dander was a kind of minor celebrity in about the 1800s, completely forgotten about now, but he was famous in his day for frequenting oyster restaurants, right? This was like at the height of Victorian London's obsession with oysters. Oysters just came out of the, came out of the Thames. Londoners couldn't get enough oysters. Edward Dander would go to these oyster restaurants and he would order dozens of oysters at a time. I mean like 200, 300 oysters at a time. And then he would draw a crowd and he would performatively eat all of them along with loaves of bread and kegs of ale. And then when the bill arrived, Edward Dando would swear to God he thought it was free. He claimed in court not to know how restaurants worked. And in these magistrates court he would always insist on representing himself. And in his testimonies he would always begin by saying, your worship, I was peckish and I refused to go hungry. In a land of plenty, of course, harsh 19th century justice. He'd be thrown into jail often for like months on end. With when he was in jail, he was thrown into solitary confinement because he kept eating the rations of the other prisoners. And then, and this is the clincher, Edward Dando, every single time on the day of his release, not the day after his release, on the day of his release, Edward Dando would walk from the prison gates to the nearest oyster restaurant and he would do it again. That is a man who is free. That is a man who knows himself. And I love the story of Edward Dando because for me, the story of Edward Dando reminds us of how much there is to be gluttonous for in the world. You know, I love living in the modern world. I adore it. I like the kind of modern food that other people pretend to Hate. I eat things like Rustler's burgers. Do you know why? Because I love it. Like, I really love it. People go, what are you talking about? What do you love? All of it. But you know what I mean. Like drinking, I love it. But even like sitting. Oh, I love it. I really love it. You know the irony that I am a stand up comedian, just the one hour of the day I'm not sat on my ass. I love it. I really, really love it. I feel that very strongly. Like it's interesting to me that greed and gluttony are separated in religious teaching. I don't think that gluttony belongs on that list of seven deadly sins. I don't think so. I think greed does, but I think gluttony is different. I think that gluttony is something of a virtue and I think it should be celebrated. But they are different, aren't they? Like we don't live in an age of gluttony. Not really. Gone are the days of Edward Dando, you know, gone are the days of the medieval feudal lord who kind of throws feasts and you know, bakes pies that are birds within birds within birds and that kind of thing. It's over. Nowadays the modern day equivalent of a feudal lord is just anyone in a friendship group who owns a printer. You know, Tragic. I mean, the stranglehold they have over the rest of us, it's unbelievable. But we don't live in an age of gluttony. We live in an age of appalling greed. We live in an age of the kind of cruel, scheming, evil greed. But it's the kind of greed which up close looks very moderate. Like it's no surprise to me, our modern day Silicon Valley overlords, they're not gangrenous Henry VIII, are they all. Like, they're gym bros, you know, Mark Zuckerberg is a gym bro. That guy Brian Johnson or whatever, he's a gym bro. Jeff Bezos is a bit of a gym bro. You know, they take their vitamins, they take their supplements, they optimize their daily routine, they go to the gym, they cut the small talk. You know, they want to, they want to expand their territories, they want to live forever. It's terribly easy. Egotistical, greedy behavior. Whereas at least gluttony in its kind of, it's not selfless but it's humble, isn't it? You know, like, do you think Edward Dando liked going to prison? Of course not, you know, but Edward Dando had The humility to say I don't matter, my life doesn't matter as much as the celebration of these oysters, you know, the celebration of life. In a similar way, I promise you, my bank balance does not matter as much as the celebration of a Domino's pizza. Do you know what I mean, though? I'm trying to make the point that gluttony is. It's over, you know, the greedy men have won. It drives me mad because also because I'm flying the gluttony flag out here, you know, I believe in gluttony and I took gluttony to a whole new level last year. Shocking. So, okay, last year, to fund my Edinburgh Fringe run, I went on a clinical trial, right? So I went on this trial where they gave me malaria. This is true. And never got a laugh before, but there's something for everyone on this show. No, seriously, I promise you. I went on this clinical trial that gave me malaria and actually it got a bit out of hand. It resulted in a sort of touching. It was a near death experience. Right. I bring this up because I really felt like last year after the, after everything that happened, I felt like I really earned my time at the Edinburgh Fringe. You know, I was hungry for life. I wanted to do my show, I wanted to watch other people's shows, I wanted to hang out. You know, I was having a great time. And in the spirit of triumph, on about day five of the Edinburgh Fringe, I thought to myself, what would Edward Dando do? And I got myself the modern day equivalent of oysters. I got myself some cheesy chips. I love cheesy chips. And I ate these cheesy chips slightly too close to going to bed and I woke up, unsurprisingly, I woke up in the most extraordinary pain. It was this horrible, dreadful stomach ache. It was like someone was lying on top of me, you know, which they were, got them off and then. And. But it was awful. Stomach ache, kind of nasty, like headache, a fever. It was, it was dreadful. I just remember, I remember lying there in bed and thinking, okay, I just need to get myself to the bathroom and I will eventually pass these cheesy chips. And I'm in a lot of pain. And actually I phoned 111, right? And they said, how bad is the pain? I said, it's pretty bad. It's not as bad as malaria, right? They said, what an incredibly strange thing to say. And they said, look, if it's manageable, the chances are you've probably got food poisoning. I Thought, fine. Food poisoning. I don't need to cancel any shows because of food poisoning. I've had malaria. I've had a proper disease. I've been looking forward to the Edinburgh fringe for months and months and months. I really want to do my show. I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna cancel the show because of food poisoning, for God's sake. So I went on stage, but over the next few days, as I was doing these performances, basically my body started to shut down, basically. So I would sleep for hours. I'd sleep for sort of 18 hours or whatever, and I'd wake up, I'd take all available pain relief. I go and do the show. Straight afterwards, I collapse, and I'd sleep for another, like, 18, 19, 20 hours, you know, about five days into the illness, I remember phoning up my mum and saying, this is really bad now. This is the worst pain I've ever been in. She said, how bad is it actually? And I remember saying to my mum, I feel like I want to die. Like, I feel like I want to be dead. And she said, you said that two weeks ago when you lost your phone, and I did. So. I'm not a reliable narrator of any of this next bit. Okay, take this with a pinch of salt. Now, I went to this pharmacy to get more laxatives, which is a five minute walk away. And I did that walk in 45 minutes. So I thought, okay, right, I'm gonna have to go to the hospital. And hospitals are difficult environments, aren't they? You know, because also, the hospital as an adult is a place where you have to kind of advocate for yourself, right? Which basically means doing an impression of your own mum, you know, and that's adulthood, isn't it? Sadly, you know, you just. You go around as an adult doing sort of impressions of your own parents until eventually it sticks. And then you kind of. The other day I roasted a chicken. You know, it was like a drag act or something. Fuck's going on here? Am I in the opening number of a musical or something bizarre? I went into this A and E waiting room and eventually they said, right, the doctor will see you now. And this doctor, she took me into a curtained off area and she said, look, I don't know what's wrong with you, but she said, the good news is for things like abdominal pain, she said, you've actually, you've left it a very long time to come in. I've left it seven or eight days, something like that. So she said, because you've left it so long. It's unlikely to be anything that serious with these abdominal things. If it's something like a. If it's appendicitis or if it's a perforated bowel or something like that, you'd have been dead by now, right? So she said, actually, the fact that you're still here means it's probably quite mild. It'll be an infection, we'll figure out what it is, we'll give you some tablets and you can go home. You can probably do your show tonight, if not tomorrow. Great, fine. Took me for a load of scans, figure out what was going on. And she came back with quite a confused, quite grave look on her face. And she said, okay, you're not going to believe this, but it is appendicitis. And I said, oh, isn't that funny? And she said, no. So she said this in her words, she said, your appendix has not just become infected. She said, it hasn't even just ruptured, which is the usual sort of worst case scenario for appendicitis. She said, your appendix ruptured days ago and your appendix has now, in her words, obliterated. She said, you, appendix has completely fallen apart and it is now floating around your body. She said, you are in a state called intra abdominal sepsis. And she said, we need to operate on you in the next few hours or you're going to die. We need to get you to the theatre right now. I said, that's what I've been trying to tell you, get me to the theater. But look, I'm not going to pretend it wasn't scary because obviously it was scary and because suddenly it was a real life emergency. You know, they put me in this hospital bed and they bumped me up the kind of urgent surgery list and stuff. And I woke up from the surgery and the surgeon said, this is an exact quote. He said, yeah, when we opened you up, we were all a bit like, yike. Now they don't know what causes appendicitis. And it's been suggested that excessively fatty diets might lead to appendicitis. I was essentially almost killed by my own gluttony. And then he told me off, basically. He got cross with me and he said in my 25 year career as a general surgeon, he said, I've never seen someone come in that late with appendicitis because of this kind of dogged attitude I had to doing the show every day, I didn't want to cancel it. And he said that was, that was dangerous and it was stupid and it was reckless and it was immature. And he said, if you, if you'd have left it one day more, you, you'd be dead, you wouldn't be here. And that'd be it. It's really, really hard to hear that and not think he's saying that. I came in at exactly. Just saying. Yeah. So I was right not to cancel yesterday show. Thank you. My timing's immaculate. I was incredibly lucky. I feel very. I feel incredibly lucky to survive, you know, Anyway, right. Edward Dando. So Edward Dando died when he was my age. Edward Dando died when he was 29 years old. He was also a man of timing, actually, because he died just as oysters were starting to become over farmed and they were falling out of fashion in London and oyster restaurants were starting to close and go out of business. And it'd be really easy to think of the story of Edward Dando as the story of a man who never learned his lesson. But I don't think that's true. I think Edward Dando did learn his lesson. I think Edward Dando resolved every single time to continue doing the thing that he absolutely loved more than anything else. And as I lay there in that hospital bed, anxious to come back to the Edinburgh fringe, I thought of Edward Dando in solitary confinement. And I hope that every single time he thought to himself, when I get out of here, do you know what I really fancy? And I hope that for him every time it was worth the wait. Because I can promise you from the bottom of my heart, this certainly has been. I beg you, please be an Edward Dando. Eat the cheesy chips, drink the champagne, refuse to go hungry in a land of plenty, even if a thing like sepsis or prison gets in your way. And for God's sake, let's go and get some oysters. Thank you very.

[Ira Glass]

John Tothill. I should say the historical record is kind of sparse on Edward Dando, so John took a few liberties to fill in the gaps. He got the gist right as to whether a fatty diet can cause appendicitis, like they say. More research is needed. Jon's show was directed by Alex Cartledge and Katherine Craigmile. He's on tour right now across the uk. You can find details on his Instagram producer, Aviva de Kornfeld from our show helping him adapt this story for our

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program,

[Ira Glass]

Act two, the Joy of Ex. Okay, so sometimes you break up with somebody and you still talk. You're friendly. Some exes you never speak with again. It's harsh, but everybody understands it when somebody's feelings are crushed. It's not unusual. What is unusual is somebody who wants to be in touch with all their exes. I mean, all of them. Even the ones who never want to see his face again. The ones who feel really hurt and disappointed. Evan Roberts is a person who wants to reach out like that and become friends with the most hostile of his exes. It's a weird mission that one of our producers, Tobin Lowe, was curious about.

[Evan Roberts]

Evan made a list of 17 exes. By the time he and I met, he had talked with 16 of them over the last several years. It was nice to catch up, get their side of the story. But the more the thing had gone on, the more he realized this whole mission was actually just about X number 17. Someone he referred to as the big X. A guy named Keith, who, even when Evan reached out, did not want to talk. They'd broken up around New year's. It was 2010, a couple of weeks

[Keith]

after I was on my bike and I was going through the little atrium of the apartment building and getting the mail. And I got this card from Keith. And Keith repurposes cards and envelopes and put stickers on them and stuff. So I opened it up at the mail like I'm blocking the door, I'm sure I opened it up at the mailbox. And it is on the COVID is a winter scene and there's some blue stickers, blue dotted stickers he has on it. And where the sentiment of the card should have been was just a ripped out hole.

[Evan Roberts]

Keith had torn out the part where there should have been Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays.

[Keith]

It was a void. It was like. And I saw through the hole onto my shoe on the floor.

[Evan Roberts]

On the opposite flap, Keith wrote a note about how he thought he and Evan should stay away from each other. I think most people receiving a holiday card with a heartfelt sentiment surgically removed would think message received. I will also cut you out of my life, ex lover. That would be my response anyway. I will be honest. The first time I heard about the fact that you had interviewed all of these exes, I was like horrified by that. I'm such a. Like, I don't talk to any of my exes, not out of ill will or anything, but it's just like I. It's not a thing I've ever done.

[Keith]

Why don't you keep in touch with them? Is it. Is it just done. It's like it's toast and you can't make toast. Bread.

[Evan Roberts]

I Feel like the relationship we had exists very much in the time that we were together. And so to revisit it, to me feels like going to a past life. I don't know, like, the value of that. I guess for me, personally, I just want.

[Keith]

I would challenge you, I guess. There are so many other ways that it could be. And this sort of dead version is like the least interesting. And what I kind of realized through some of these interviews is if there was love there once, it's kind of

[Evan Roberts]

always there for me just to say. Evan has been in a happy relationship with his boyfriend for over a decade. But ever since he and Keith broke up 16 years ago, he's wondered, why the card? Why did Keith never want to talk to him again? Why not be friends? Had he missed something when they broke up, done something bad without realizing it? Evan and Keith met in their early 30s. They dated long distance. Evan lived in San Francisco, Keith in Austin. Evan loved who he was with. Keith said he felt like himself at a higher octave. Keith helped him apply to film school, which he'd always dreamed about. Keith was outgoing, funny. One time when Keith was visiting Evan, Evan came home to find him fake passed out in the living room with a message spelled out in T T O Y M M H. The thought of you makes me hot. But long distance was hard on them. They broke up a couple of times, would always get back together. They were on one of those breaks when Keith moved to San Francisco, said, look, we can make a real go of this now. Let's make this work. Evan was surprised, taken aback. And instead of jumping in feet first, he said, okay, but let's take our time, not rush things. Which Keith did not take.

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Well.

[Keith]

His face changed. Something about his whole body changed. And it did feel like a door closing.

[Evan Roberts]

And did that surprise you?

[Keith]

Only because I didn't know that what I said would have that impact.

[Evan Roberts]

Keith broke up with Evan for good. Afterwards, Evan felt like he was walking around in a fog.

[Keith]

It felt like I was stuck on the wrong timeline. I just felt in a different parallel universe that I wasn't supposed to be in.

[Evan Roberts]

Almost immediately, Keith got into a different, very serious relationship, which has only further puzzled Evan. They'd both moved on. Why not become friends now? But Evan's reached out a couple times over the years, and Keith has always been chilly. It's vexed Evan so long, it's become a joke with his friends. One of them was in Keith's neighborhood recently and texted Evan about it. His friend joked that he should go take a selfie in front of Keith's house, Evan looked up Keith's address on his computer, copied and pasted it into a text to his friend. Hit Send. Then he realized he had accidentally texted Keith's address to Keith. I screamed when Evan told me this. He thinks he saved it by quickly editing the text to a period, pretending it was an accidental butt text. Did you know you can edit texts on an iPhone? I didn't. Recently, he wrote to Keith one last time, asking if he would talk.

[Keith]

I see the email. Keith responded. Oh, my God, yes. Count me in.

[Evan Roberts]

Keith was game.

[Carver or Arrow (children)]

What the fuck?

[Evan Roberts]

They talk over Zoom. Keith calling in from Brooklyn. I'm with Evan in his apartment in San Francisco, sitting at his dining room table.

[Keith]

Oh, my God.

[Ira Glass]

Hello?

[Keith]

Hello?

Can you hear me?

I can hear you.

Oh my gosh, you sound good.

You sound good too.

[Evan Roberts]

It takes a minute for them to figure out where to start. The usual awkwardness of a Zoom call is made even worse when it's a man talking to his ex boyfriend. Evan brings up the last time they talked to see if Keith remembers.

[Keith]

Do you remember the last time that was.

Was it on, like, Bernal Hill?

[Ira Glass]

No. Or no?

[Keith]

No since then? Do you want to guess again?

It wasn't on Burnhill Hill with my dog.

But yeah, I mean, that happened. That was. I mean, I remember that was. But we've had dinner since then.

Oh, really?

[Evan Roberts]

This happens a bunch of times. Whatever Evan brings up, Keith only kind of remembers or doesn't remember at all. Like when Evan brings up the time Keith spelled out his secret message in matchsticks, one of his favorite memories of their time together.

[Keith]

It was the thought of you. Makes me hot. Was your new one.

Really? Wow, that's a good one.

[Evan Roberts]

Keith doesn't remember it. What's worse than having someone be angry at you, never want to see you again? I'll tell you what's worse. Finding out they don't think of you at all. Then they get down to business, start talking about the night of their breakup. And Keith explains he'd hoped that at the end of the night with them finally in the same city, they could really do the thing. Be together.

[Keith]

Yeah, well, clearly didn't.

[Evan Roberts]

But Evan showed no excitement. In fact, Evan told him, whoa, slow down. One step at a time.

[Keith]

I think my impression was that you wanted to be together, but you wanted to be friends. Like, I felt like that's what you wanted.

[Carver or Arrow (children)]

Only.

[Keith]

Only.

And that was really hard. Like I didn't want that. I wanted you to feel the same way about me that I did. About you. Like, I wanted you to, like, rush over and want to, like, embrace.

You wanted the rom com. You wanted us running to each other

[Ira Glass]

in the airport or.

[Keith]

Yeah, totally.

[Evan Roberts]

That night, Evan actually thought he was saying yes to Keith, but just asking to ease into things. Keith had taken it as being friend zoned. They both admit that they didn't do a good job of just saying that to each other. Classic. But as much as Keith remembers that moment, he admits he doesn't really remember what happened after that night.

[Keith]

Did I just ignore you? Please tell me I didn't. I just ignore you.

There was a breakup card that you sent in the mail with a hole in it.

Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, I remember that. Oh, Lord.

Your masterpiece.

Oh, my God. Will that be in my retrospective? I mean, I'm like. I'm not, like, proud to admit this, but I. I'm probably wanted to hurt you. I'm sorry. That's not a great card to get, particularly one where I put stickers on the outside. Like, that seems like a psychopath. Like, promising one thing and then being another. Like, hey, this is gonna be a fun card. It's been a little weird between us, but guess what?

[Evan Roberts]

Evan and Keith talk for over two hours. At times, their conversation feels a little polite. Like two, well, therapied gay men talking about their trauma while being recorded by a third, well, therapied gay man. But at least Evan has the answer to why Keith had sent the card. Which clears the way for Evan to do the thing he came here to do. Make his case that they should have been friends all along.

[Ira Glass]

Yeah.

[Keith]

I just feel like I wish that we could have figured out how to be friends. That's all. This whole time?

Yeah.

Like, do you wish that was possible?

I just hadn't really thought about it as a compartmentalizer. I, like, I think I've. Until you pose that question, I don't think I've really considered it.

[Evan Roberts]

Evan just keeps trying to convince him that he's got it all wrong.

[Keith]

I don't. So my. Yeah, I just. I don't understand. For me, when I connect with someone, when I have the kind of experience I had with you and. And with other loves of my life, it feels like such a. Like I'm not doing it. I'm invest. I'm investing for a reason.

[Ira Glass]

And I want.

[Keith]

I want someone still in my life. Like, I'm. I have wanted you in my life since we broke up. I have needed you. You okay?

[Announcer or Sponsor Voice]

Yeah.

[Evan Roberts]

Keith huffs a couple of Times eventually wiping away some tears. He seems overwhelmed. Like he wasn't expecting this depth of feeling from Evan.

[Keith]

I feel sad. I feel sad about how I handled it, how I communicated, and that I was, like, hurtful to you. And I also am just sad for me and who I was then. So it just, like, is placing me in that small room I paid $300 for or something with no furniture and wanting my life to be something that it wasn't. And also it makes me sad that you, like, I think what. What you said, like, I. Like I have needed you as a friend and a person in my life, just makes me feel like. Like just what a waste of time.

[Evan Roberts]

Evan is also taking it in. Seems flustered.

[Keith]

It's so weird. It's so weird to be right here now. Keith, I never thought. Yeah, I never thought I'd ever hear any of these things come out of your mouth.

[Evan Roberts]

Keith asks if they can take a break. When we get back on the Zoom. I remind Evan we have one last piece of business. The accidental text.

[Keith]

Okay, so you can imagine how Evan

[Evan Roberts]

tells him about how his friend had texted him. He was in Keith's neighborhood. Their joke about taking a selfie in front of his house.

[Keith]

So I copied the address and I texted it to him. And then I realized that I had sent it to you.

[Carver or Arrow (children)]

Really?

[John Tothill]

Oh, my God.

[Carver or Arrow (children)]

Are you serious?

[Keith]

Yes.

[Evan Roberts]

Keith gets out his iPhone.

[Keith]

Oh, God. There it is.

See the period? Now see where it says edited?

Yeah.

You can actually press that and see what

[Evan Roberts]

Keith taps on the screen, which lets him see the original unedited text with his address.

[Keith]

Oh, my God. See, this is the good thing about stalking somebody who doesn't understand their phone.

[Evan Roberts]

The way they're laughing, they sound somewhat like, dare I say friends. Attention in the room is released. They're more relaxed. And Evan, to my surprise, admits that maybe this all was a little bit much.

[Keith]

There's. There's all these other little details that I have stuck in my head, but I think part of this also is I might just need to let go of some things, too. I just might. Maybe I don't need to hold on to so many details.

Yeah. You're a Holder honor.

I'm a Holder honor for sure. Yeah.

About most things in your life, right? Or like, just you really.

[Evan Roberts]

Just kidding.

[Keith]

Just kidding.

That's good.

[Evan Roberts]

You're a Holder honor. Such an intimate observation. Maybe Evan was right. Maybe digging up all this old stuff with your exes isn't just a masochistic exercise. They say they'll get dinner the next time Keith is in town. The call ends, leaving Evan and me in the apartment. I'm kind of shocked.

[Keith]

You are?

[Evan Roberts]

Yeah. I really came in today kind of worried for you or like, not sure what was going to happen. And I feel. I feel genuinely convinced that this was a worthwhile exercise, which I'm surprised by. I don't know. I just wanted to say that, and

[Keith]

I'm so glad you feel that way. Actually, I feel vindicated that I convinced you.

[Evan Roberts]

I talked to Evan again recently. He said Keith came through town. They didn't get dinner, but he's okay with it. He doesn't have any more questions for him.

[Ira Glass]

Tobin Lowe is a producer on our program. Coming up, a shirt makes judicial history. Did it commit a murder? Did it embezzle funds? Did it violate the Clean air Act of 1970? Answers in a minute from Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.

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[Carver or Arrow (children)]

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[Ira Glass]

This is American Life from Hour Glass. Today's program I want what I Want stories of people deciding to do things that most of us choose not to do. We have arrived at Act 3 of our program. Act 3, the lawyer, the judge and the wardrobe. So our show today is about people making unusual choices. And we turn now to a judge making a decision this week that everybody who hears about it seems to agree. It was a very eccentric decision, not the kind of decision one usually sees. This happened in a big federal trial in Texas, the antifa trial of the century. In fact, a kind of landmark case for the Trump administration. One of our producers, Zoe Chase, was there for the first day of the trial on Tuesday. You can't record in this federal courtroom, but Zoe took notes on that first day when they were picking the jury, the part of the process that's called voir dire in Texas, by the way. Everybody calls it voir dire. But our Yankee correspondent, Zoe Chase, has no interesting cultural appropriation and is going to stick to her native way of saying it, voidir. And she now tells us what happened in that courtroom. It was eventful.

[Carver or Arrow (children)]

So Judge Mark Pittman kind of sweeps into the room. All rise. Here's the judge. He's a Trump appointee from the first Trump administration. He's a bit of a showman, charismatic and kind of exciting to hear from. He has a very strong Texas twang. He welcomes in everybody. And, you know, he's like, you should know, I have a pet peeve of people who make fun of jury service. I like to quote Frederick Douglass. He says, we have three boxes that preserve liberty and justice in this country. The ballot box, the cartridge box, and the jury box. Dramatic pause. And when they get to the part where you're supposed to start questioning the jurors, the voir dire, he goes first, he leads it. And I'm in the overflow room, so I can't see the jury, but there's 75 or so of them. There's a big group of them, and

[Ira Glass]

they're gonna pick 12 people and I guess a couple of alternates.

[Carver or Arrow (children)]

Right, right. 12 jurors, three alternates. And the judge starts asking questions to the jurors to see potential bias in the jurors. So he asks them, what kind of experience do you have with law enforcement? Which is not an unusual question in a trial like this. And then he goes, do you have strong feelings about what ICE has been doing? Are you pro or con?

[Ira Glass]

And let me just say he's asking about ice, because this particular case has. Is it nine defendants, Zoe?

[Carver or Arrow (children)]

Yeah, at this point.

[Ira Glass]

And they were protesting ICE's actions. They were at an ICE facility.

[Carver or Arrow (children)]

Right. I mean, the government would say that they went to attack an ICE facility. And in fact, one of the defendants did shoot a local police officer, and that officer was wounded. And the government's arguing that these defendants were organized, they're part of an antifa cell. This is the government's big case where they're hoping to show that there is an antifa. It's a domestic terror group, and you can win big convictions on that.

[Ira Glass]

And we should say the defense says none of this is true. They say they were not a group. They say these people were not planning an attack. They say they were protesters protesting ice.

[Carver or Arrow (children)]

Right. And so the judge is asking these potential jurors, what are your feelings about ice? And the way he asks, it's like, do any of you have strong feelings about what ICE is doing? Pro or con is what he says. And he sort of has people raise their hands, but juror after juror is raising their hand, and they're saying, yes, I am very upset about what ICE is doing. I do not like what ICE is doing. So this is Tarrant County, Texas. It's like a purple district in the middle of the country. And this is like the definition of a random sample of people. Yeah, but at least according to people around me, like local reporters and people who live in the area, this doesn't sound like Tarrant County, Texas to them. Just person after person saying they're upset about ice. And, you know, I don't know, like, the judge did bring up Minneapolis, and since Minneapolis, a majority of Americans don't approve of what ICE is doing. So maybe that's what this is an example of saying, wait, wait.

[Ira Glass]

And did anybody, when they raised their hand, did they say, yes, I have a strong feeling about ice, that President Trump is finally delivering on his promises. And, like, I'm very much in favor of what ICE is doing. Does anybody say that?

[Carver or Arrow (children)]

No, it's just person after person. No, ice. Boo ice. And the judge was very focused on this follow up, which was, okay, can you put aside your feelings about ice, however strong they are, can you sort of leave them outside the courtroom?

[Ira Glass]

Which does not seem like a bad question.

[Carver or Arrow (children)]

Not at all. But a lot of times they would be like, I don't know if I can. I will try, but I am really upset. And the judge, which seems honest, the judge would kind of push them. So does that mean you can't follow my instructions under the Constitution to consider only what's in front of you? And then they would eventually be like, yes, I can follow your instructions. Most of them ended up saying yes after some pushing from him. And he kept using as an example, he kept Being like, you know, I'm an Aggie, so you know how I feel about the University of Texas. But if the University of Texas was on trial, I could put my feelings aside and judge the University of Texas fairly, if I can do that. Can you do that? And finally, one of the potential jurors in the back and forth said, sort of respectfully, a college rivalry is not the same as human rights.

[Ira Glass]

Wow.

[Carver or Arrow (children)]

And this anti ICE stuff comes up again. Then when the prosecution gets a chance to ask their questions, one woman just starts out saying, I don't think I can be on this jury. I have two family members who have died after being deported. Another one is like, ice's tactics. The conditions in the detention facilities are horrific. I don't know if I could put my feelings aside. And the government attorney's like, I'm sorry, could you repeat that? She's like, horrific.

[Ira Glass]

So things are not going so great for the prosecutors. What happens when the defense attorneys get up and get to ask their questions? Other potential jurors.

[Carver or Arrow (children)]

Yeah, the defense comes up, and right away things go awry. The story really changes here. The first defense attorney comes to ask her questions. This is defense attorney Marquita Clayton. And she brings sort of a poster board to help with her questioning. And the judge sees this and he, like, freaks. He's like, what is that? Has the prosecution seen that? I haven't seen that. You are not allowed to bring props in here. Maybe in state court. This is federal court. Like, he's very upset. And the poster board is sort of hastily put away. And then she's asking some questions about whether or not you can bring a gun to a protest. What the potential jurors think about that of a confusingly phrased question, to be honest. And it's taking a while because she's going juror by juror. And the judge interrupts. He's impatient. He just goes, defense counsel, is this really how you want to use your time? Something like, I've been the most generous federal judge in the history of the world. I've given you guys 90 minutes. This has been going on for 22 minutes. I really think you should consider whether this is a good use of your time. Something to that effect. And I wanna note, this attorney he's rebuking is a black woman. She's the only black woman attorney, as far as I can see, in a room full of attorneys. The judge, white guy. So that's the scene. And then he goes. In fact, you all better have a little visit and think about whether this Is how you really want to proceed or something to that effect. He's just.

[Ira Glass]

You mean you defense attorneys, like, get together, have a timeout, talk about whether this is what you wanna do?

[Carver or Arrow (children)]

Because I'm here to tell you it's not. And so there's this little recess, and then when he comes back, he's hot, he's upset, and he just starts right into what he's upset about. And he's like, there are very clear rules in this court about having demonstratives in the courtroom.

[Ira Glass]

Demonstrative is the poster board.

[Carver or Arrow (children)]

Right. You know, bringing any prop with you to the courtroom and also about what you're wearing in the courtroom. And this attorney, I have just realized, is wearing a shirt.

[Ira Glass]

This attorney means the defense attorney.

[Carver or Arrow (children)]

Yeah. And indeed, this attorney is wearing a shirt. She's wearing a blazer over it that I happened to see earlier in the bathroom. So I saw it up close. It's kind of checkered. It's these little squares, you know, smaller than a cigarette packet of civil rights leaders. Martin Luther King is on there. And it's kind of iconic images of the civil rights movement. And when I saw it, I was like, oh, she put that on because Jesse Jackson just died. We just got the news he died that morning. So it's a shirt honoring protesters. And the judge is like, we've been talking about peaceful protests for 20 minutes, and you're wearing a shirt with peaceful protesters on it. And the jurors can't unsee that. You can't use your clothing to influence the jury. He says, that shirt has a politically charged message. It's as if the prosecutor were wearing ice friendly pins or a shirt with Donald Trump on it, riding an eagle, flying an ice flag. I'm sure the defense would go ballistic if that happened. This is why in England they wear black robes and wigs. I don't think this can be corrected by any type of instruction to the jury. And so I have no choice but to declare a mistrial. Everyone is like, what? Because this is a crazy turn of events. That's like a nuclear bomb to just drop the entire trial and start it over because of this woman's shirt.

[Ira Glass]

Wait, and what do people do?

[Carver or Arrow (children)]

Well, everyone's just surprised. Like, everybody is stunned in the room, and the judge is kind of like, I'm gonna see what all the attorneys think about this. I should say also, the jury is not back from the break. It's like the potential jury is not seeing this whole back and forth anyway. The judge pulls all the attorneys, like, do you guys think there should be a mistrial? And even the government whose case was supposedly hurt beyond repair because of this shirt, they seem taken aback, they seem surprised by this turn of events. And they say, basically, I don't know. They don't co sign the mistrial.

[Ira Glass]

They don't ask for a mistrial.

[Carver or Arrow (children)]

They don't ask for a mistrial. And okay, it is against the rules of the courtroom to wear a shirt like this. A shirt with a message on it. I talked to a federal prosecutor from the same district who agreed with the judge that it could undermine the whole trial. She said, if you're going to throw out the whole case and restart it because of a shirt, this was just the first day. You're not losing much. Someone else I talked to, a federal defense attorney in Texas, said she'd never wear a shirt like that to court. But she also said, I don't agree with the judge, that there was no other option besides mistrial. There are lots of options. You can sanction the lawyer, you could fine them. You can tell the jury to disregard what they've seen. You can ask the jury if they even saw it.

[Ira Glass]

So mistrials are rare.

[Carver or Arrow (children)]

Mistrials are extremely rare. The judge himself said he'd never called one before in his whole career. Then the judge, it's not over. He says he needs a break to go review the law. And he kind of sweeps out of there. I go back into the hallway and I see one of the defense attorneys and I'm like, dude, what is going on? Like, is there going to be a mistrial because of her shirt? And he's like, it's not the shirt. The judge doesn't like the jury panel. And I'm like, why? And he's like, because they hate ice and that. The shirt. The shirt is the MacGuffin in order to restart this whole thing and get a new jury pool to choose from.

[Ira Glass]

And do you think that might be true?

[Carver or Arrow (children)]

I mean, that is pure speculation. That is not what the judge said. That's not the stated reason for calling a mistrial. And later, that defense lawyer pulled it back. He was like, I really don't know, but it was a significant thing. How many people were against ice? Over and over and people saying they wouldn't be able to put their feelings aside over and over.

[Ira Glass]

How many people was it?

[Carver or Arrow (children)]

It was 18 to 20. I know we're talking about a jury pool of 70 plus people, but the way the process works, the prosecution would not necessarily be able to block all the jurors. Who hated ICE, if that's what they wanted to do, just because of the rules of the game.

[Ira Glass]

But if the judge, in fact, is doing this because he doesn't want people who have strong feelings against these law enforcement figures to be on a jury, that's about these law enforcement figures, that's not so strange. It seems like that would happen in any courtroom for any trial involving law enforcement figures.

[Carver or Arrow (children)]

Yeah, that's not a weird goal at all. It's potential bias. Their feelings about ice. It's not strange the judge would want that at all. But it is strange to call a mistrial. And there is a clue that something else was going on with this judge, which was at the end of this strange day in court, he calls the jury back in and he gives this little speech, and it kind of comes out of nowhere. He talks again about how much jury service matters, and this should be a place where you can set your personal politics aside. And then he says, I'm disgusted by where America is today, how hopelessly divided we are over politics. In the 1850s, Abraham Lincoln said, a house divided against itself cannot stand. I don't want my sons to fight in the next civil war. We have to find a way to turn down the anger and the hatred.

[Ira Glass]

Wait, what?

[Carver or Arrow (children)]

I know everyone around me was looking at each other like, what was that? And I think he was frustrated by how impossible it seemed to create a room right now. That is what a courtroom is supposed to be, neutral ground. He said over and over during the whole day how important it is to get an unbiased jury that only considers the facts in front of them. To have a room with no politics in it. The shirt violated that and possibly the juror's answers about ice. But of course, the problem in trying to create an apolitical trial is the very premise of this trial is so political. It's about this stuff being debated literally every day, all the time. It's ice. Trump, antifa. Antifa versus ice.

[Ira Glass]

Right.

[Carver or Arrow (children)]

Maybe there's a room somewhere you could discuss it objectively. I just don't know if that room exists in the United States.

[Ira Glass]

Okay. And so, Zoe, I think what you're saying is, I think your big conclusion today is you're saying we are a very divided country.

[Carver or Arrow (children)]

You heard it here first.

[Ira Glass]

Zoe Chase is one of the producers of our program.

[Producer or Narrator]

If you want more

[Carver or Arrow (children)]

what you desire,

[Producer or Narrator]

once you own it, you can't fake

[Carver or Arrow (children)]

what you can't break up with. If you understand a few years.

[Ira Glass]

Program is produced today by Diane Wu. The people who put together today's show include Fia Bennett, Dana Chivas, Michael K, Emmanuel Jochi Rananjalpi, Walt, Valerie Kipnis, Molly Marcelo, Catherine Raimondo, Stone Nelson, Ryan Romory, Lars Straucheski, Ruthie Petito, Frances Swanson, Christopher Sotala, Julie Whitaker and Nancy Abdyk. Our managing editors, Sara Abderrahman. Our senior editor is David Kestenbaum. Our executive editor is Emmanuel Berry. Special thanks to Jai Young, Fan Teluani, Osi Bemowo, Steven Monticelli, Chris Impey and Arno Mokros. The family of the bees that we had at the top of the show from the film the Boys and the Bees, Nehemiah Ray and his kids and wife. They are active on Instagram. You can find them Raisedwild. The spelling's kind of specialized here. It's the name Ray R A Y S D, then the word wildwild. Our website thisamericanlife.org where you can listen to our archive of over 850 shows for absolutely free. This American Life is distributed by prx, the public radio exchange. Thanks as always to our program's co founder, Mr. Tory Malatea. You know Tory, he is the master of swap. Meet any deal you're offering. He is completely stone faced.

[Evan Roberts]

I don't know like the value of that I guess for me personally.

[Ira Glass]

I'm Ira Glass. Back next week with more stories of this American Life.

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