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- [00:00]
Ana Mi Tonkin
Hi, friends. I hope you're all doing well. I sometimes sit here in my little recording room, which is my son who's gone off to college. His bedroom has been converted into my recording studio, and I'm all alone. I'm sitting here looking at this poster. He's got an MF Doom poster on the wall and SpongeBob SquarePants posterior that says, no weenies allowed. This is the. The brain stimulation that I have as I sit down to record. And I think about the fact that even though it often feels like kind of a lonely endeavor to sit down and record podcasts where I'm basically talking to myself, it goes out and it ends up in the headphones of photographers all over the world who are walking their dogs or driving and sitting in the pickup line at school or exercising or editing all the various things that we do as we listen to podcasts. And it really just warms me from the inside out. It makes me feel like part of something bigger. And I guess I always know on some sort of intellectual level that my people are out there, the people that get it, that understand what it is to pursue a creative career and sort of put your heart out there every day in pursuit of reminding people of what's important and building a legacy for people and connecting them with their families and their loved ones. And, you know, all the many things that we do as photographers, and we don't typically make millions and millions of dollars doing it, and we don't always get the thanks that we know we deserve. And it can be hard. And every day I am grateful for the fact that somewhere along the line in my career, I made it a priority to connect with other photographers and to start building that community of people who do get it. And it started small. It was, you know, coffee and periodic meetups with a local group. And then when I co founded the Family Narrative, then I had this amazing community that started to build around that conference, which was a tiny conference. It wasn't like it was, you know, hundreds of people, which actually made it feel. Feel more like a community. And then, you know, now with this can't be that hard, and at this stage of the game, you know, the community is large enough that I don't know every single one of you personally, but I know that if you're here, if we were to run into each other and sit down for coffee or a glass of wine, we could crack each other up with hilarious stories and burst into tears with sort of the shared commiseration of running a business and that we would have more in common than we don't. And I love that. And it's such a. It's such a reassuring thing, especially when it's hard, especially when it doesn't feel worth it. Especially when we're here. Right. And if you're listening to this when it drops in the middle of the busy season and just kind of like seeing that dim light at the end of the tunnel. And my conversation today is with Kim Box, who is the founder of the Motherhood Anthology. She's been in the photography world for years. She's done all kinds of things, and we got together to have a conversation about community, and we do talk about community, but she's also sharing so many just little bits and tidbits of wisdom about this industry and this business and what it takes. And I love her approach. She and I are, you know, I'm sometimes overly focused on, like, let's talk about systems and the business and numbers and all that. And she is so good at that stuff. But she also has sort of a softer touch. And our conversation today was just like the fireside chat that I needed. And I hope that it's exactly what you need today, too.
- [04:21]
Kim Box
Welcome to this Can't Be that Hard. My name is Ana Mi Tonkin, and I help photographers run profitable, sustainable businesses that they love. Each week on the podcast, I cover simple, actionable strategies and systems that photographers at every level of experience can use to earn more money in a more sustainable way. Running a photography business doesn't have to be that hard. You can do it, and I can show you how.
- [04:51]
Ana Mi Tonkin
Kim, welcome to this Can't Be that Hard. I am so excited to chat with you today. How are you?
- [04:56]
Kim Box
I'm good, thank you. Anna May. I'm excited. You are? I. I'm sure you know this because you have a podcast, but people feel like they know you like you're a friend. I listen to you on my morning walk most mornings, so I'm excited to, I feel like, talk to my friend.
- [05:14]
Ana Mi Tonkin
Oh, I love that. No, I know. And I feel like we've actually gotten to know each other relatively well over the last little while. And I, too, am excited to talk to my friend. You have been in this business for a long time. You know all different corners of the business and are just such a generous wealth of knowledge. So this is going to be a good episod.
- [05:33]
Kim Box
Thank you.
- [05:33]
Ana Mi Tonkin
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. But let's actually start there. I would love for you to introduce yourself to everybody and kind of, you know, give the overview of this long and yeah, windy career path for everybody who doesn't know who you are.
- [05:48]
Kim Box
I do feel like it's kind of long. I'm feeling a little bit old these days, but because I'm having to say I've been in the business for over 20 years. That sounds old, but I don't feel old.
- [06:00]
Ana Mi Tonkin
No, no, no. Well, let's reframe it as wise you, you have a lot of wisdom. Yeah.
- [06:05]
Kim Box
How long have you been in the business?
- [06:07]
Ana Mi Tonkin
I started my business in 2010, so 14 years this year.
- [06:11]
Kim Box
Okay. Yeah, I say I stop counting at 20, so I just say over 20 years. But yeah, so I started shooting over 20 years ago back in the day, you know. Well, actually I have a business partner, his name is Josh Moats. And so I started shop for one year, just needed some extra money. I was a single mom with a little girl and I worked for the Chamber of commerce in our little small town at the time. And I did a ribbon cutting and I was bored to death in my job. But the ribbon cutting was for a wedding store. And I thought, I think I could be a wedding photographer. So marched to the camera store, said, I want to be a wedding photographer. Give me what I need. They gave me like one of my, I think my camera, my first, it was like one of the first digital cameras. It was a Fuji, gave me the bracket and the flash and the wedding store that I did the, the ribbon cutting for said I, you know, I'll fix you up with a small little wedding. So I shot my first wedding for $150 and I thought it was great. That was gross money, you know. And so I shot for a year and then I met my business partner, Josh Moats, and we started shooting. We were like I said, first digital kids on the block in our town. It was us and the old film guys. And it just really took off and we shot everything back in the day. Lots of weddings, lots of kids, seniors, babies. All the things that through the years morphed into us starting Indie Film Lab. Out of that grew Indie Print co. And somewhere along the way in the last seven years had the idea that I didn't know if I could keep up shooting the rest of my life, you know, what was that, what was that going to look like for me if I ever wanted to retire one day or slow down or do something different and got really interested in the whole like membership course world and started taking some classes and decided that I wanted to start a membership. And so I'm one of the co founders of the Motherhood anthology. So it's been around for seven years.
- [08:15]
Ana Mi Tonkin
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. And has evolved into such an amazing community. Talk a little bit. Let's just sort of start with the foundation of that. What was the, what was the hole that you saw in the market? Or what was it that you. Because in my own experience, and maybe this is different for you, but I feel like a lot of people that I talk to, it's like you wanted something that you didn't see out there and so you decided to create that thing. What was it that you were looking to create at that time and has that evolved?
- [08:46]
Kim Box
Yeah, well, you probably know, like me, like when I very first started shooting, there was nothing but a, like a conference or a, like Imaging or wppi, like the big conferences. And you would go and you would sit and you would listen to speakers and I always wanted to ask the questions that they weren't sharing, you know, like, what are you charging for that? Or, you know, those kind of questions. But that back in the day, you know, that just really wasn't talked about. People weren't sharing, like, what they really were making or what they really were charging. And so. And then, you know, as time progressed, you know, there were more and more retreats and smaller workshops and things like that. Well, those were great, but I always left those thinking that the best part of those were like the late night talks when everything was over and you put on your pajamas and you had a glass of wine and everybody was sitting around and then you could say, does that work for you? Like, what are you charging for that? And so I think, like I, I think to me, our community and our membership, that's what that feels like to me is it's a group of girls that you get to know over time. Like, you get out of it what you put in it. But if you're, you know, you're active in there and you can ask those kinds of questions and people are so quick to share what's working, what's not working, what they're charging, what people. You know, like, I think that's the biggest part of any community is that we see all these people online doing things and like, you think they're so successful and they're, they're talking about like charging a premium and like how much they're charging. And I think back to when I started and, you know, you think, I mean, I could never charge that. I could never do that. And to surround yourself with people that are doing it, like, it makes you believe that you can too. So to me, that's the best part.
- [10:39]
Ana Mi Tonkin
Yeah. That has actually been something that I have used to kind of trick myself into jumping off what can sometimes feel like a bit of a cliff.
- [10:48]
Kim Box
Right.
- [10:49]
Ana Mi Tonkin
On several occasions in my business where it's like I'm psyching myself out and I'm thinking in my mind, like, who am I to. You know, the imposter syndrome is kicking in? Like, who. Who are you to charge that much? Or who are you to say that you are qualified to do this job and what I'll do? And there's a little bit of, like, maybe it's not the nicest thing, but I'll look around and I'll be like, well, if that person can do it, why can't I? And it's not any in any way. I mean, I was. I'm saying it sounds like it's got a mean side to it. It sounds that way, but it's not meant that way. It's just sort of me looking around, being like, those people were brand new at one point, too. They had to take that step at one point. They're not superhuman. You know, if they can do it, I can do it, too. And I can't really think of a time I've. I can name thousands of times when I tried for something and didn't. It didn't go the way that I wanted it to or the way that I planned for it to, but I can't really think of a single instance of something that I tried, win, lose, or draw, and now regret that I gave it a shot, you know?
- [12:00]
Kim Box
Yeah.
- [12:00]
Ana Mi Tonkin
I mean, have I spent money I didn't need to spend? Sure. Have I put myself out there and ended up feeling a little sheepish about something? Sure. But, you know, ultimately, those things, it's like you have to kind of keep trying.
- [12:13]
Kim Box
Yeah. When they say you win or you learn, you don't. You don't lose, you learn. And looking back on life, you know, that's the good thing about getting a little older, is you can see patterns and cycles. And the best things in my life have happened when I thought all the doors had closed, you know, and so I think getting. Bringing it back to community. Like someone said the other day, we were talking about. I don't even remember who it was we were talking about. I think I do know what it was. I did a podcast episode talking about anxiety and creatives, and she was just talking. I said, why do you think, like, there's, like, more anxiety these days? And the counselor was saying, well, you know, back in the day, the women, like, the women like back, way, way back in the day, you know, would come together and they would cook together and they would, you know, do different chores together and, you know, they would tell stories and, and talk the other women, like, maybe the younger women through things. And I think there's less and less time that we spend together anymore. You know, everything's so digital these days that I think if you can find a group of people that you feel like a part of and close to, like, there's so much to that. Like, there's so many times in like our community where I just need to vent, I just need to share what happened to me today. And there's so many people that have. I know exactly what you mean. Like, that's happened to me too. And as entrepreneurs, especially photographers, because most of us are working alone. Like, there's so much value in that. Just like having somebody say, you know, I do understand.
- [13:43]
Ana Mi Tonkin
Okay, so let's talk about the difference between. Because I love that you talk about historically, these sort of communities of women who were sharing, you know, literal in person community, communal spaces. They got to know each other, they were in each other's families and everything else. Online communities are different, obviously, for a bunch of different reasons. People are spread all over the place. They don't necessarily know each other. And real life, they may have very different backgrounds, they may collide over certain issues. I would love to hear, and this is a little off topic, but I actually think it comes back to. As we try to find the right communities in our own lives, the online community space can be really intimidating for a lot of people. And actually at this point, I imagine most of us have been in enough online communities that weren't what we wanted them to be that we have gotten a little gun shy about it. So I would love to hear, as somebody who has run a community that, from what I can tell, certainly has been, been very successful at maintaining that, striking the right balance.
- [14:49]
Kim Box
Right.
- [14:50]
Ana Mi Tonkin
How do you foster that? Because I know from personal experience that doesn't happen by accident. That's not something where you're just like, oh, it's just because great people come here. Like, there's more to it than that.
- [15:01]
Kim Box
Yeah, I think we've all been a part of communities that didn't make you feel warm and fuzzy or welcome. And to me, we have all been a part of groups where it can get mean girls sometimes, you know, and we just don't tolerate that. Like, I don't tolerate that. I feel like There's a way to say almost anything in a nice or professional way. And sometimes there are things that are not helpful no matter how you say them. I'm all about constructive criticism. I don't want people to think that we're all like, fluff. Like, sometimes people need to hear the truth, you know, like, you need that in order to grow, to get better. So I do feel that there's a place for constructive criticism, for sure. But I just think, like, in a. If you're running a community, you just can't tolerate drama because it will take over in a hurry. So, I mean, like, we have taken some training on commute, like running communities and memberships and such. And like, the best advice is just don't tolerate that. Like.
- [16:02]
Ana Mi Tonkin
Yeah.
- [16:03]
Kim Box
Yep.
- [16:04]
Ana Mi Tonkin
Yeah. No, I think it's important. And when I first started hosting various communities, you know, like my Facebook groups and all that sort of stuff, I think I felt really nervous about telling. Taking, you know, taking a post down or, you know, like, kicking somebody out if they were misbehaving just because I was like, I believe in free speech and people have. But I. I agree. I think that. First things first, the culture starts at the top. Right. And so I think that your example and the tone that you set is so, so important, but then you also have to follow through. And it does. It gets trickier as communities get bigger. And. Yeah, but like I said, tough things.
- [16:45]
Kim Box
Like, there are subjects that come up sometimes where you're like, this doesn't.
- [16:51]
Ana Mi Tonkin
Yeah.
- [16:51]
Kim Box
Does it feel good? Because maybe it's like, I need to warn you about this, or there's this going on in our. And I. Maybe I. Maybe I bought something that I don't feel good about. And I want to share this because I don't want anyone else to, like, make the same mistake. It. So sometimes, you know, I feel like there is a time and place for things, some things like that. But again, it's the manner in which it's presented and then just managing the comments, you know, with a lot of.
- [17:22]
Ana Mi Tonkin
Participation and oversight from community managers and. Or the people who run the communities.
- [17:26]
Kim Box
Right.
- [17:27]
Ana Mi Tonkin
You do generally tend to avoid. You know, it's like those conversations don't devolve because people understand that that's not the right time and place to go kind of mudslinging.
- [17:39]
Kim Box
But.
- [17:40]
Ana Mi Tonkin
But anyway. Okay, good. Well, I was just curious about that because I think it's something that a lot of people can be kind of gun shy about after having some bad experiences. And I. I think that that gets even worse. I Mean, there's all kinds of online communities out there. Obviously, if you're in the US Right now, when we're recording this, we're leading up to the election, it's like it's just all contention all the time out there. And it's one thing when you're in. When you're talking about, or when you go to a space where there's politics being discussed or other sort of hot topics being discussed, you sort of anticipate that. But as artists in particular, when we are talking about our art or when we are talking about our businesses, which are, you know, tied up with our art and tend to have a lot of emotional baggage attached to them.
- [18:28]
Kim Box
Mm.
- [18:29]
Ana Mi Tonkin
You want to be in a space that you trust will both tell you what you need to hear, which sometimes is not going to be like, oh, my God, you're amazing. It's not always going to be that, or it shouldn't be that, but at the same time, you don't want to be opening yourself up to public humiliation or something that feels that way.
- [18:51]
Kim Box
Right. I'll tell you something. I guess about three or four months ago, we. We changed some things up. I did have business partners at tma, and they decided to move on and to do something different. And so that was an opportunity for us to kind of swap things up a little bit. And at that time, we. We've always had really great photographers, educators in our group because every month we provide education for our members along with the private group. So we provide education, and typically that comes from members of our community or educators that we bring in. And so at that point, we actually gave those people that had already been pouring so much into our group kind of a title of mentor. And so I think we have about 13 mentors in our group now. And those are people that, I mean, and I'm sure that we will introduce more as the time comes. But this first group of people were people that I really had worked with and felt like I knew well and just were just very smart, encouraging, positive, professional people. And so that really too, like, has just their presence. And having them in the group, like, you just. It sets a tone, you know, if the people that are really speaking up and offering a lot of advice, they really help with that culture and set the tone. And then Allie, who has been our. She's been like, doing all the hard work in the background for years and years. She got the official title of community manager. And so she's really in there pointing people in the right direction, you know, connecting people with People they think could really speak to a question or issue that they might have and also saying, hey, Kim, should, you know, what do you think about this post? Does this need to stay? Which honestly is maybe happened three times in three months. So we really just do genuinely have a really supportive group of people.
- [20:43]
Ana Mi Tonkin
Yeah, the facilitation is different from sort of being in there running, micromanaging.
- [20:50]
Kim Box
Right, right.
- [20:50]
Ana Mi Tonkin
Yeah, that's so good. So I would love to get a sense from you, given your long term perspective on the industry, your breadth in terms of like community management and, you know, running a film lab and all these different pots that you've had your fingers in. I would love to get your perspective on sort of where you see the industry right now and what you see kind of coming down the pipe. And I didn't prep you for that question, so I apologize if I just sprung it on you. But I do think that photography is at sort of an interesting place. I feel like it ballooned in this huge way after digital photography became sort of the great, you know, equalizer and so many people were able, able to start businesses and there's been this huge appetite that has been created by Instagram and all of the different social media platforms out there that just are bottomless pits of, you know, view content. But then I also think that post Covid and everything else, there's been a bit of a correction period and I'm genuinely personally curious about kind of what, what comes next in photography. And I wonder if you've got thoughts about that.
- [22:06]
Kim Box
That's funny because we're going to record for my podcast next. I have the very same question for you, so.
- [22:11]
Ana Mi Tonkin
Oh, well, I got, I beat you to the punch.
- [22:16]
Kim Box
Um, no, I think about that a lot. It's funny that you asked me that because I don't know if I have the. Have the answer because that's why I always ask the question. But you know, I. What? So many things change, but so many things stay the same. I think it really all boils down to, I really just think with the relationships with people, like, I really do believe that people do business with people they like and people they trust. And when I started, there weren't that many people. There weren't that many photographers. And so you could kind of name your price almost. You know, photography was magic back in the day. Like people didn't, they didn't know how to create it on their own. You know, they needed you. And then, you know, we have so many photographers now and technology is so good and the iPhone, the iPhone so great. And you have so many people that just want that quick image so they can share it. And I saw a lot of that, especially when I was still shooting weddings, that I knew it was getting bad. You'd have the group and then I'd walk up and say, oh, I'll get it. And they would say, oh, no, no, we want it with our phone. You know, I was like, oh, okay, I see where I stand, see what's going on here, right. I think more and more, you know, everything circles back around. I think more and more people are like wanting that heirloom. You know, they realize that they want that special album or that special piece of artwork, that they have thousands and thousands of photos on their phone. And oh my gosh, my phone died and I didn't back it up and I lost my child's memories. I do think there's enough of that now that people are starting to see that, oh, I better do this for real so that I have some real things to share and pass down. And my children have things when I'm, you know, memory printed, tangible memories when I'm not around anymore. So I do really feel like people are seeing that more and more.
- [24:23]
Ana Mi Tonkin
Yeah, I agree with you. I don't think that as an industry, photography is going anywhere. I think that there's so much out there to do. I just think that it's will probably be a little bit less of a free for all. And so because of that, I think things like education and community and, you know, I don't think photography is ever going to be an industry where you need to go have like a plaque on the wall that gives you, you know, license to practice necessarily beyond what you might get from your state, you know, like that sort of licensure, but having sort of good practices and all that, which most of us don't start out with, like straight out of the gate. So, yeah, having those communities and networks that are supportive and help you build a business that's sustainable, I think are so important. Not just financially sustainable, but like emotionally sustainable and, you know, all the other ways that businesses can drain us.
- [25:20]
Kim Box
So I do think too, like, people are looking for more than just a good photographer. Like, I think they're looking for an experience they're looking for. It's not just the end product, but like, this is a thing we're doing and with my family and we're taking an hour to play together and, you know, be together and like, make memories together. And so I think it's more too about, like, from beginning to end of the process, and not just we've got to do this thing to get these photos at the end.
- [25:53]
Ana Mi Tonkin
So, yeah, I. And I've talked about this before, and part of it is just the fact that I happened to work in the hospitality industry when I was in my late teens and early twenties. But I really feel like there's a lot of hospitality that goes into running a business like ours where you are really hosting someone through a process and experience. And that part of it, in my experience, is equally important, if not slightly more important, than the quality of your photos.
- [26:25]
Kim Box
Oh, I agree. I'm 100% agree. We all know those people that are pretty good photographers that are running amazing businesses and people that are amazing artists that are not making any money. So, yes, I believe that.
- [26:42]
Ana Mi Tonkin
So good. Well, I am so glad that you are out there shining your light into your corner of the industry, our. Our corner of the industry, whatever you want to call it, because you've got so much good stuff to share. Everybody where they can learn more about the Motherhood Anthology and potentially joining your community if they are so inclined.
- [26:59]
Kim Box
Yeah, absolutely. So the easiest thing to do is to go to our website, themotherhoodanthology.com I think there is a tab on our homepage. It's just a wait list. We're actually open for enrollment. I believe the 14th of November will be open for a week. We open enrollment every quarter. And so if you'll just go there, we'll send you an email. We also have the Motherhood Anthology, free Facebook group group. So we'd love for you to join that community as well. And like I said, like, it's $45 a month. And for that you get. We actually do weekly content, so you get weekly education, which is awesome. We get a monthly newsletter template for your clients to send to your clients. Just all kinds of great stuff. Shooting videos, behind the scenes, SEO, marketing, branding, all the things. So we'd love for you to join us.
- [27:54]
Ana Mi Tonkin
Yeah, I love that. So good. Well, Kim, thank you so much, and I'll say goodbye to you on the podcast here, and then I will see you again shortly because we're gonna keep on recording.
- [28:06]
Kim Box
Oh, yeah. Oh, and definitely check out the Mother anthologies podcast. We'd love to have you listen there as well.
- [28:12]
Ana Mi Tonkin
So follow us along over to the other. To the other side of the podcast sphere. Wonderful. All right, I will. I'll talk to you soon.
- [28:21]
Kim Box
Okay.
- [28:22]
Ana Mi Tonkin
All right, bye.
- [28:24]
Kim Box
Well, that's it for this week's episode of this Can't Be that hard. I'll be back same time, same place next week. In the meantime, you can find more information about this episode along with all the relevant links, notes and downloads@thiscantbethard.com learn. If you like the podcast, be sure to hit the subscribe button. Even better, share the love by leaving a review in itunes. And as always, thanks so much for joining me. I hope you have a fantastic week.