← This Can't Be That Hard
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- [00:00]
A
If you have ever felt like talent alone should be enough to build a thriving photography business, but somehow you are still hitting roadblocks, then you are going to love today's episode. I am joined by the incredible Karen Williams. She is a creative director, a photo editor, and an industry insider who has worked with household name brands we all know and love. Brands like Netflix, Airbnb, Wired magazine, AARP and Masterclass. Over the past 15 years, Karen has sat squarely on the other side of the table, the one where the decisions get made, the budgets get approved, and the photographers get hired or not. And now she has taken all of that insider knowledge and demystified it in her new book, the Photo An Insider's Guide on How to Book Clients, Get Paid, and Master the Business of Photography. I read this book and it is right up my alley. It's smart, straight talking, and exactly the kind of resource I wish I'd had earlier in my career. In our conversation, Karen pulls back the curtain on everything from portfolios and pricing to gatekeeping and grit. And while her experience is rooted in the commercial and editorial world, I want to be really clear. This episode is for every photographer, because the systems, strategies, and mindset shifts that she shares apply whether you are shooting national campaigns or a family session right down the street. So, without further ado, let's cue the intro music and dive in with Karen Williams. Welcome. Listen to this Can't Be that Hard. My name is Annemi Tonkin, and I help photographers run profitable, sustainable businesses that they love. Each week on the podcast, I cover simple, actionable strategies and systems that photographers at every level of experience can use to earn more money in a more sustainable way. Running a photography business doesn't have to be that hard. You can do it, and I can show you how. Karen Williams, welcome to this Can't Be that Hard. I am so excited to have you on the show today. How are you? It is early in the morning in la.
- [02:05]
B
I am doing great. I am jazz. I am pumped. I'm so excited. Thank you for having me on. I love what you do just by just opening up those gates, giving information. You know, I feel like sometimes in this photography community, you know, people are like, you know, I have to keep what's mine. I can't, you know, let anyone have it. And it's like, y', all, there's enough for everyone to go around. So I just appreciate you and all that, what you do.
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A
Oh, gosh. Well, the feeling is very mutual. I have so enjoyed reading your book and just, it was like, I Kept feeling myself as I was, you know, going through it, being like, yes, there, there's lots of like, I, I read it in digital format and there's lots of like highlighting happening on my screen. So I'm just like dying to dive in. And actually so normally I have people give me a little bit of a backstory, but I feel like that's going to get woven in as we go. I would love to just kind of have you dive straight in to where you open the book. Right. You start the book talking about how there's not really a magic formula to success in photography, which I know resonates very much with me. I know it resonates with my audience because we've talked about many, many times how there are so many different paths to, to success and there's so many definitions of success. But I would love to hear your take on why that message was so important, that that was kind of what you led with.
- [03:32]
B
I led with that because so many photographers who I've encountered via just a coffee chat or portfolio review, they'll come to me and they'll be like, okay, tell me what do I need to do? Tell me the exact layout of my website. I need to have what, what, what sequence of my photos, what photos you have to have. And it's like literally like in my book, there is no magic formula, right. I, I, I always harpen back and I'm probably might sound like a broken record after end of this, but I harpen back to what is not taught in school. Like yes, in school, I went to school photography, the technical side, when you look at it, it's like, okay, you know how to use your camera, you know how to, you know, you know, you know all the settings, you know how to, you know, compose an image, you. But really when it comes down to it, why, I say it's no magic formula. It comes to knowing your why as an artist, photography is still a art form.
- [04:27]
A
Yeah.
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B
And I think coming out, you know, I think starting kind of around like 10 years ago, I think a lot of people took photography, especially in the age of you have the smartphone. And I always say now that everyone pretty much knows how to use a camera, but not a lot of people know how to take a photo. Photo.
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A
Right.
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B
And you know, the ease of it, where it became more of a service base in a sense of like just providing something versus an art form. So I've had people in my life where they've grinded out for like 10 plus years and then they finally hit like their you know, definition of success. And they're getting, you know, work, and then there's some who come out of oblivion. Someone ace, this celebrity, picks them out out of nowhere, and then they get a cover which is a true story with, you know, the Beyonce and tell, you know, and all that. And then. Okay, they're shooting everything now. Right? Right. There is no secret to success. In a sense. All I say is, know who you are as an artist, understand what you're trying to do with your photography and put in the work. There is no. Even if you're plucked out of security and then all of a sudden you're just shooting all these things, what. What's going to keep you in a game? You still have to understand who you are as an artist and deliver great work. Yeah, that's at the end of the day, because you can be do one great shoot, but if you're doing like two crappy shoots afterwards, you're not going to get hired. So I always have to emphasize, again, what is success for you? Because a lot of photographers are like, okay, I'm looking to the left. I'm looking to right this person. No, no, no, no. It's not about them. It's about you.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And I would always tell them that portfolio views or when they ask my advice of, like, you know what? She, you know what? How should I arrange my photos? Like, I'm always saying, I'm coming from my personal experience. Every person who looks at your work is going to have a different experience and have a different opinion. But that's why you should know your why and know who you are as an artist. So you know what to filter in and what to filter out. It might happen immediately and it might take you a while.
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A
Yeah.
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B
But don't quit there. And that's why I say it's photography. It's not for the faint. No, photography is not like, oh, I'm gonna be making like $10,000. Like you can. But then I'd be like, do you know your finances? And, you know, like, I'm here in California, you know, pay $10,000. Okay. That's taxes.
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A
Yeah, sure.
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B
Right now. Okay, so I'm down to 5,000. Then expenses that weren't covered for the shoe. If you have an agent, 20% comes out, you know, and all of a sudden $10,000 could be like, okay, I just made $1,200 on the shoe.
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A
Right.
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B
Is that enough for you to survive?
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A
Right. For sure. Knowing your numbers. Because it is so easy to get caught up, especially actually when people Start throwing around numbers like, oh, I'm a six figure photographer or I, you know, made this amount. It's like, great. Can we open up your books and look at all of it and see, first of all, is that even profitable for you? Second of all, like, how does that, how does that show up? How is that breaking down? I, I just feel like we can talk numbers all day long and I'm happy to talk numbers, but I want to talk about all of them if we're going to talk about it, you know, not just the, the sexy ones.
- [07:35]
B
And I want to say I rolled my ads a little bit because when they say six figure, I want to know. And when you're selling that to all these like photographers first I'm like, what's your talent level? Yeah, because a lot of people are like, I want to charge $10,000. And I always say, and I think I say in the book, like, is your portfolio showing me that you're worth a 10? You know, you're worth $10,000 if you have like broken links and things ain't looking good. Like, like you have one good picture but then the rest are like, what? Like that's what always rolls my eyes when you say that when they're selling this dream. And it's like, it's more complex. It's more not complex. Nuance.
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A
Yes.
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B
With that of like getting six figures. And like you said, what is that after taxes, you know, after all the expenses you're getting that.
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A
Yeah, it's so true. You in the book, one of your mantras that you talk about is like, presentation is everything. And you tell that story about the guy that you hired who had Jay Z in his portfolio. Like he had obviously been, as you say, sort of like plucked from the masses and got given this like great opportunity or I don't know how he got that job, but you know, he had this very compelling online presence. But then not so much the delivery. I would love for you to tell that story just for, since, you know, not everybody listening to this will have already read it or heard it. And then we'll kind of dig into that a little bit more.
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B
So I was just like a newly, you know, plucked, you know, photo editor, director. And so my, at the time, my kind of like mantra at that time for me, I wanted to work with new photographers. It was, I've been in an industry where they were just working and this is pre George Floyd. So they, I was in the industry that were working for the. There's pretty much the same five white Male photographers everywhere, they had to shoot a certain place. And so I made it my mission when I was kind of lead of a photo department was like, okay, I want to try, like not saying I'm still working with the same people they're working with, but I wanted to make sure I'm opening up opportunities. So, you know, again, I want to give everyone a chance. Like, you never know. So I'm looking again naively like, okay, the website looks a little dated, but I'm like, okay, you have kind of like the, you know, the, you know, the portfolio, the, you know, the celebs, the, you know, the portraits that we're looking for for this shoot.
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A
Right.
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B
So you know, and again, this is why I say in the book, you know, okay, presentation is only 90 10% is you got to deliver and that's how you're going to continue, you know, to get work. So I want, I gave him a chance gun shoot and it was a disaster show. Like, and I didn't know what I didn't know. Right. I was just new, I was new at the thing now, you know, I know better. Like I know how to vet better. And so when I'm on set and then the photographer brought a friend, a wife, I don't know, it was just so it was this person that this person knew and I had to talk to them. I couldn't even talk to him. He's like, talk to this person and they'll talk to me. And I'm like, that was the part.
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A
That really.
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B
This person brought. I was like, these doesn't look like, you know, soft, you know, you know, like they're just light bulbs.
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A
Oh, wow.
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B
And then you're going off of tropes and then so that, that was a very eye opening learning experience. And what I tell photographers is why people like on our side can be hesitant to hire new people. Because if you do not do a good job again, we didn't have the budget to do a reshoot. We had to do some design magic to make it presentable.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And I told and people were disappointed and so that, you know, people kind of looked at me differently in a sense of can we trust your judgment right on who you're, you know, choosing? So a lot of them, if you have a bad shoot, and again, obviously you can have a bad shoot, it's not your fault and it's like mother nature and just circumstances you can't control. But if it's something where the photographer basically over promised and under deliver, like I'm not going to be working with you again. And that's what like, you know, people just don't. They're just like, no. And then I don't use broken trust, right. And so for me, I that was a big learning descendant. Now again, it did make me hesitant to want to hire new people, but I continue to push through and be like, okay, not everyone is going to be that photographer, right? But it does pause and make sure. Now I vet and then I go to my circle of like other photo, you know, creatives and like, hey, have you worked with this photographer? Have, you know, getting all kind of information. So that's why we say also in the book, you know, your reputation follows you.
- [12:10]
A
Yeah, yeah, totally. Well, and one of the things I talk about how there's kind of three systems in every really any business, but certainly in any photography business, where it's like you've got your marketing system where you're getting clients, you've got your sales system where you're turning those leads into paying clients, and then you've got your delivery system, right? Like when you follow through. And I always say you have to work backward if that follow through isn't there and if it doesn't make good on the promise that you're selling up front, you're worse off than you were before you had any inquiries because now you've broken trust, you've got, you know, bad reviews, whatever. So I feel like that is that, you know, that story is a perfect illustration of that where it's like, great, you got this good photo shoot, but then like you're not able to show up and recreate that for whoever your new client is, that that just set you back however many years. Like if that person then was being hired for another shoot or you know, interviewing for another job and they called you, then they would lose that.
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B
And to note that the creative field is getting smaller and smaller.
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A
Right.
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B
But therefore it's like you might be going to someone else, but they were like, oh, I know you or you move to that new, you know, position that you're like, oh, I'm I to work here. And they remember that, you know, and again, people get and like I always say, one bad experience with one, you know, you know, creative or, you know, with the company and stuff. Again, I've seen it where okay, then they have success other places and then no one has a problem with them. It's just right knowing that that person is going to have that experience and people ask them about it, you know, they're gonna probably. They're gonna tell you the truth. They're gonna tell the truth and be like, hey, I'm not gonna. I always, for me, my kind of philosophy is like, I'm not going to tell you not to work with the person, but I can say, here's unless it's something completely horrendous and no, stay away. But it's like I say, this is just my experience. You might want to watch out for this, this and this. And then the other person could have, you know, because they watched out for this and this to, you know, make sure that didn't happen. Could be a great experience. So I always say, kind of like in the blacklist, it's like it, you know, one person, you know, might not like want to work with you, but you know, again, they may, you know, the photographer may have different experience for other places than they love you. Right? Yeah, it just depends.
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A
Indeed it does. Okay, so while we're talking about sort of presentation, let's talk about portfolios. You in a Brandon editorial commercial world, you talk about, you know, needing to curate your portfolio for the clients that you want. Most of the people listening. We have a lot of brand photographers, not necessarily tons of commercial photographers, certainly, I imagine there are some people interested in getting into that. But I think that this is kind of a juicy topic to talk about. In any case, no matter who your intended audience is, how would you advise a portrait photographer, a wedding photographer, whatever. How would you sort of recommend going about curating your portfolio in a strategic way?
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B
Okay, so again, like sounding like a broken record. And this is gonna be, I always say, the unsexy part.
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A
Yeah.
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Knowing your why of understanding what you want to ultimately do with your photography. Who are those brands or places or clients you want to be shooting for? So for example, maybe I want to shoot high and Lux and that can go for portraiture, you know, weddings, or brand photography. I'm just going to go brand photography for companies just for this example sake.
- [15:40]
A
Sure.
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B
So, okay, I wanna. And then what, what with what niche? You know, you kind of have to figure out kind of like, okay, is it, you know, high end fashion, you know, photography, food, still life, conceptual. What is that? And really go deep and start research and then looking at the companies. Because Chanel is going to be different from Walmart. It's not good or bad, but again, Walmart's more accessible lifestyle versus Chanel, where that is like the 1% and that is like high end, you know.
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Right.
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And Lux. And so they're going to be wanting to look at your Portfolio like those creative directors and art directors and photo, you know, people are going to be looking for different things in your portfolio. Go, then look, you know, list out those companies or places or whatever you want to shoot and start doing a visual audit of like, what are they putting out there? I always say here, here's another tip. Look at photographers doing what you ultimately want to do and shooting the brands, the people that you want to be doing. Look at their website. It's. You're not copying them, but you're seeing how they're positioning themselves. Then you could take that data and go to your, your own work first and kind of do an audit and say, hey, research. I noticed that a lot of them do this or they organize portraits this way or they organize food or you know, sweets and savories this way. If you're a food photographer and just taking notes and being like, okay, I know I have this, but okay, from that research, here's the gaps, here's what I need that you might have to fill in just to have a kind of a well rounded portfolio. And I save from doing that research that helps you because you save time and money because you know specifically what you need to add.
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Right.
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But then once you have that, then you kind of have to take what you know, I always say you take kind of that research, remix it into. Okay, then what is your distinct visual way you present what you do.
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A
Right.
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B
Because like I said, you don't want to be a copycat because you'll be the cheap version of the top photographer. Right. So it's like that's, I always have to, I'm always like going back to who are you? You know, as a visual artist.
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A
Yeah.
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B
You know what I mean? And you can interpret that so many ways because when I get a creative brief, I'm looking for artists that does what only they could do that works for this creative brief. I'm not looking for a copycat. So when you're going about kind of curating, just understand the who you're trying to curate to. So if you're a wedding photographer and you're wanting that doodles high lux destination weddings will put the hat on like, you know, a bride and groom. What would you think they would be looking for? They're looking for the five star like experience. When they're looking at your website and seeing the images, they, at the end of day, people just want to be blown away with beautiful images and people are willing to spend that money. I always say I, you know, is this going to like get Rid of, like, anyone who's mid and below where they say, you know, oh, I can do better. You're dead in the water.
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A
Right.
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B
People still want that premium experience. There's something that, you know, requires. I always say creativity is connected to the human brain, you know, absolutely. That. That can't be replicated, you know, and they're your vision. So, yeah, kind of like when you're curating, just understand who you're trying to curate to and making sure you have the items. Like, if you're a food photographer and you want to shoot for Taco Bell, but you don't got no tacos, or maybe you'd be surprised. I was working with someone and they were like, okay. So it was like, okay, I see your birds. Where's tacos? Like, yeah, the person's going to want to see Mexican food or something to see you can do it. Because it's all about social proof, right. Of you can do it and being consistent. So understand who you're trying to curate and what they would be wanting to see to show social proof that you could do it and do it consistently and not have to worry if you can do it or not.
- [19:27]
A
I think we give people, other people, a lot more credit for making the creative leaps that our brains are wired to make. Like, in a totally different context, I can walk into a dump of a house and be like, I see the potential. We're going to. You know, I'll move this and I'll do this. And, like, I can. My brain just instantly goes there. It's one of my favorite, like, hobbies. But then I go to, you know, an open house or whatever, and I listen to other people walking around in a house being like, I don't know, I just hate this shade of green on the wall or whatever. And I'm like, painting this room would take like 40 bucks in an afternoon. No big deal. But, you know, people can't necessarily see beyond it. And so I love that, you know, that you're not just saying, show what you want to shoot. You're very much saying, like, yeah, sure, make that checklist, but be as literal in that as you can like it. People need every bit of evidence that you can give them what they specifically are looking for.
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B
Kind of piggyback off of that. Like, when you're presenting your brands or even just like, if you're waiting for, like, to a couple, there's other stakeholders that are going to be involved that are not going to be visual, you know, fine as you. Yes. And I always say like, on my side of working with brands and editorial, I'm like, editors or writers, it's like nothing. They don't understand what photograph is. But sometimes these are people like, hey, I found this on Google. You know, I found the Mona Lisa on, you know, Google search. Can we use this for a cover? Like, you laugh, but it's like, no. Do you want to be sued by the Loop or something? You know, licensing or like, here's something from ICE stock. Recreate that. And I'm like, we can do better. You know, So I always say it's like you have to make it literal. Like you were saying. Literally, part because people, they're going to be people that you're going to come across. They'll be like, I just want to see a boy holding a red ball. I don't want to see a black and white, you know, interpretation. I don't want to see, you know, conceptual, like, you know, boy, red ball, you know. No, I want to see a boy holding a red ball. Right? And they understand, like, oh, you can do it.
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A
Yeah, well, and to translate that, you know, your creative director versus your editor, I would say so I'm a family photographer and I would say, you know, 95% of the time I'm thinking about women and like the. Because women are most of the people who hire me. They're the people who reach out. However, if they happen to have a partner who is a man who is not that into photography and not that into family photos. How is my portfolio on my website when, you know, mom is like, come on, let's do this. I think it's gonna be great. Which photos is she showing him that get him excited, like, exactly. And I have to be thinking about all of that. So. Yeah, no, that's a great point. You talk about knowing your why, knowing your worth. Like, these sort of ideas come up in the book. They come up a lot in my community too, especially for portrait photographers who struggle with pricing and sort of self advocacy. Talk a little bit about what that looks like in practice in the brand and commercial world.
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B
Okay. This is like the most hot topic. And I hate when I have to get this answer. But like I said in the book, there's no magic number, right? And this is where it come. This is why I did a whole chapter about knowing your finances first. Understand your finances. Of you're running a business. I always say your starting point and it times it like by two or something or whatever. And I always say, I'm not a tax or financial expert. So you Go to someone, right? Because everyone, you know, who is a professional, because everyone's, you know, situation is different.
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A
Yeah.
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B
But I always say, understand, like, okay, what is that number? You cannot go below where it's like, I'm breaking even, right? Then you, then you start there and then you like, okay, I'm gonna multiply that by two or something, or whatever that percentages and that's. I always say, start with that starting rate. Again, this is so nuanced because again, sometimes like photographers who are newer, there's some people who have that talent right off the gate. And it's like, okay, I see it in your portfolio. I see the value, I see the consistency. And this is where it gets, like I say, very nuanced because art is very subjective. You know, maybe I don't like it, but someone else likes it and they're willing to pay a trillion dollars for it, you know. And so this is why you kind of have to know your audience of what you're, who you're trying to sell to. Because in the brand new world, we're looking for consistency. We're looking for like someone not saying, and this could be newer, you know, or someone's been there in the industry for like 20 plus years. But it always comes down to that portfolio of like, okay, I know I can do this. This is, this is top of the line. I'm like, I want to look at my contemporaries. I'm right there. You can charge that amount. And I always say, what gets photographers in trouble is they'll want to just do a blanket, like, Charge me $10,000. And it's like, that's it. And like, when you're putting in your estimate, we need to see those line items. Because remember, on our side we are dealing, usually big companies or most companies, we have an accountant, you know, department that has to do these approvals. And people are going to look at it line by line sometimes and be like, what's this? Why do you need this? Why? You have to be able to justify it. I always say, articulate your price and value. Be able to articulate. Why do you need. Because a lot of, even when you're working kind of in the retail space of like family portraiture or weddings or stuff like that, they're not understanding licensing, they're not understanding copyright, they're not understanding like, you know, the usage or like, why do we need all this? Why do you need an assistant? Be able to articulate why you're charging what you're charging first. Show it with your portfolio as we talked about. Because if people see it, then they'll understand it. And then if you're able to articulate it, then they're like, okay, cool, I get it.
- [25:17]
A
Yeah. I really feel like your book fills such an important. What seemed like a very important hole in the. In the education world, where you're demystifying the process of estimates and contracts and licensing. I feel like I have been. Even though I am not a commercial photographer, I have seen so many instances on, you know, in various Facebook groups and chat groups that I'm in with photographers desperately being like, even family photographers. I know periodically somebody will reach out, they want to license an image or a series of images, and they just have absolutely no idea where to start. So I'm really glad that you are working to find. Fix this problem. But why do you think that that stuff in this information age, where there's all this information out there, why do you think that that is still such a mystery in the photography world? Why is that such a hard thing? And how can we start teaching that or learning that earlier in our careers?
- [26:17]
B
So it's like kind of twofold. I feel like first, when. Especially in the brand world or even editorial, sometimes it's NDAs or scarcity mindset.
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A
Right, Right. I guess I had.
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B
Because once you get into the circle, I always say once you get in the circle, you're, you know, you're getting constant work. You know, sometimes you're like, I don't want to give that much. And then sometimes NDAs, like, literally. And it's not. And again, this is why. And my passion is because it. So many questions, and it's like you. You can find kind of some of these answers and like, you've gotta look and it's not in one place. I was just like, I'm just gonna give you some basics to understand, you know what I mean, of how you approach this kind of information of contracts, especially in s. And how to go. Like I said, NDAs, scarcity and mindset. And then this is what was so frustrating about school was they teach you when you look at the curriculum, they teach. And there's some schools that now are starting to. To really emphasize, you know, business, but they just teach you that technical stuff and like, here's a portfolio.
- [27:15]
A
Best of luck.
- [27:15]
B
They don't tell you how to run a business. They will, like, get another degree or. Or how do you make money for your photography? And again, I feel like there's some more openness now. But back when I started and like, all the way in 2008, it was very clicky, very closed. Like, even I like, when rising up the ranks, I learned everything about, like, I found this website called a photo dot com. Love, love him, Rob. That's how kind of I figure out how to be a photo editor. That with Google. But, like, even colleagues, it was just like, everyone's out for themselves. Like, here, I'm going to teach you, but I don't want you to take my job.
- [27:55]
A
Right.
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B
Kind of mindset kind of thing. I think now photographers are like, let's work together. Let's like, again, it's not like you're giving away secrets because obviously, like, I don't. Like, I have. I've signed NDAs and stuff like that. But at least. Okay, let's just know, like, what are the major things you need to be looking out in contracts to understand, to make sure. Like, my ultimate goal is to be empowered so you know your numbers. And you're like, I know that this job, I'm losing money, but. But I know I'm going to make the decision, take it. Because I know that when I take this photo of, let's say, Beyonce, because that's just what happened right now in my Beyonce. I know putting that in my portfolio is going to help me get other jobs in this realm that I want to get, right? Versus, like, oh, I am not taking this job because it's underpaid. And right now I'm dealing with this client. I'm seeing all these red flags of being micromanaged, and they want to add all these things to the shot list and they don't want to be paying for it. And they're asking every little question that's like, that is not worth my time, right?
- [28:54]
A
Red flags flying all over the place.
- [28:56]
B
So this is why, you know, I think that's just the industry of. This is why I'm trying to open up the gates. Like, yeah, I wanted a central resource that gives you the basic fundamentals, which is understanding this industry. And again, there's nuances obviously, to everyone, because some people, like, I. We go back to kind of like, you know, there's no magic formula. Some people are like, oh, my God, I got my first gig and I shot the COVID or something, and now I'm in and I understand I have an agent. And so, you know, boom. I'm like, you know, it's an easy, like, train easy, you know, express versus people who. I have to grind it out, kind of figure it out. Okay, I got it figured out now. Okay. And now I've Kind of made it. And I'm getting, like, substantial, like, stable work.
- [29:37]
A
Right.
- [29:38]
B
And I can make this a career. I don't. You know, there's no perfect answer. And I wish there were more people from my side willing because sometimes, again, the willingness of people wanting to give this information out because it's like a club, like, you know, kind of thing mentality of, like, we only want to let certain people in. And for me, I just want to make sure everyone has some type of equal footing.
- [30:03]
A
Yeah.
- [30:03]
B
And obviously, your talent and who you are as a person is going to get you far if you're, like, amazing and nice. You know what I mean? You know what I mean? Keep you into this game. But at least, you know, going in, like, if someone gives you a contract, you're new. It's like Nike and it's like. Or whatever brand, insert brand. Your dream brand or dream job. And at least. Okay, okay, I have this book. Okay, so let me go over this chapter on contracts. Let me look at these major kind of like, sections again and make sure I understand. And if I don't understand, let me go to a lawyer to help me understand it, or someone who would understand to give you advice of what to do.
- [30:44]
A
Yeah. Your story is so compelling. It involves a lot of pivoting, a lot of perseverance, which I think is just. Anybody getting into photography or probably any creative field should just embrace the fact that that's part of the game, like pivoting and perseverance. The. The good news is that as creatives, we are well equipped to pivot because we can be creative about how we move forward. But I would love just a little bit of insight about what kept you going through all of that. I feel like we're in a season right now where the economy, there's, you know, there's a lot of, like, upheaval and unrest, and photographers are kind of feeling edgy. That's what I'm hearing from them. So, you know, when. If you, you know, starting in 2008, I'm sure you've ridden lots of different waves. What kept you going through all those, you know, various job rejections, career detours, you know, slower times, all that sort of stuff.
- [31:40]
B
I think starting in 2008, I was very naive. Like, that was a year I graduated with my mfa, and I thought, okay, I'm gonna be like, I did an internship after I gradu Graduated, and I was like. I was like, on a picture desk on uk and I was like, okay, this is what I'm gonna do. And then we hit up like a recession, right? So for the next four years I was just working like, job to job. I started as a family photographer and then I just love. Fell in love with photography and I went for school for it. And again, because I started so late, I didn't like have the foresight, oh, maybe I should have did my grad school in New York because that's where publishing is and that's where, you know, a lot of people break in. I didn't have that. So I kind of had to, like, I just started applying. Thank you, Southern Living, who took a chance on me first job and, you know, just learned I absorbed everything I could. I understand corporate world in a sense. I just kind of just stay quiet thinking, okay, if I work hard enough, I'll keep rising in the ranks in it, you know, slowly. That was kind of being undone because again, I would go to jobs and stuff like that and not seeing the progression that I want it. And then George Floyd happened and I hit a breaking point where I was just angry and I went to therapy and I dealt with it because I just kind of felt like an imposter. And yes, maybe race had a part of me getting certain jobs, but at the end of the day, I don't know that for sure, but I know I wouldn't still be doing what I would be doing if I didn't do a good job. That's why I say, at the end of the day, if you don't do a good job, you're not going to continue. You know, maybe you had an advantage that got you, you know, to where you're at and got an opportunity. But at the end of the day, you know, I know I'm a great photo editor, producer. Like, I know to do the job, like people like working with me. So for me, just with like kind of what you're seeing right now in the world of where people like, okay, it's going to swing back, you know, the other way. I always just say, you just got to keep pushing and persevering. It's hard. Like, it was hard before George Floyd and it's going to be for after George Floyd. But I know I'm in a career that I love. I am very passionate about it. I always tell for cars, you come on the site, either you love it or hate it because it's logistics and you're sitting at a computer and you're just on phone calls and emails, just making sure everyone is there for the set or the creatives done. And Getting high res and stuff like that. If you're passionate about what you're doing again, you just continue to persevere. You and you just keep doing. You keep doing. You being authentically you.
- [34:10]
A
I think I had in my head, you know, I like, oh well, what's some final piece of advice? You just. Mic dropped that. That is. That was amazing. I think as our careers, as our just experience as adults really stretches out over time. You ride various waves and, and have, you know, both period. Periods of time where you're getting to. It feels like you're getting to move forward kind of quickly. If you're in a. On a chutes and ladders board, you know, you can find that ladder and then sometimes you slide down the slide and things do in many ways feel like they are getting aggressively harder for creatives and, and certainly for people within marginalized communities of any kind. So I really appreciate you sharing that.
- [34:57]
B
And I always, I would like to like kind of leave off kind of with this is that, you know, for every. Any creator who's feeling it down right now or feeling like I did, like when I throw in the tower, just remember you have been giving, given a beautiful gift. Use it. Use that gift. Because again, someone might be waiting for you. You don't know it yet. You may have do it, but you gotta keep going. Don't waste that gift. We need you. Someone needs you. There's a reason why you've been like anyone who has. Everyone who has, you know, everyone has a gift. I always feel like everyone has a gift. You have been given that gift to do something with it. So do something beautiful with it.
- [35:39]
A
Amazing. Karen. Let everybody know where they can find you, follow your work and get their hands on a copy of the Photo Hustle.
- [35:47]
B
Well, you can follow me, Karen, aka the Black Visual Queen at blackvision queen.com There's a link for the book. The book is sold everywhere like Amazon, Barnes and Noble, bookshop. Org. You can pick it up now and on my social. It is at Black Visual Queen as well.
- [36:05]
A
Love it. Wonderful. Thank you so much for coming on. It was great to get to chat with you and I will look forward to speaking again in the future.
- [36:13]
B
All right, thank you so much.
- [36:15]
A
That's it for this week's episode of this Can't Be that Hard. I'll be back same time, same place next week. If you like the show, be sure to check out this can't bethard.com to explore all the resources we have for photographers. And of course it would mean the world to me if you would leave a review of the show on itunes or Spotify. As always, thanks so much for joining me. I hope you have a fantastic week.