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- [00:00]
A
Brand photography is having a serious moment, and for good reason. It's fun, it's in demand, and for a lot of photographers, it's a natural, potentially lucrative addition to their existing offerings. But jumping into brand work can also feel a little intimidating. There are a lot of questions out there that people have about how brand photography is different, because it really is. Today I'm speaking with Emily Kim. Emily is a photographer, she's an educator, and she's a former software engineer whose systems first approach to brand photography is as refreshing as it is smart. As soon as I met her, I knew I wanted Emily here on the show. She is creative, she's strategic, and she's obsessed with making things simple and effective for both her clients and her students. And while I'm sure we could have nerded out on any number of topics, I am really excited that we landed on brand photography because in our conversation, Emily is unpacking what actually makes a brand session different from a portrait session, how to plan a shoot that stands out in a sea of sameness, and why having a framework but not a rigid posing flow is really one of the keys to successful brand work. So whether you are new to the brand niche or you're already offering sessions, you're going to walk away from this conversation with a better understanding of how to approach your sessions with confidence and creativity. Let's dive in. Welcome to this Can't Be that Hard. My name is Annami Tonkin and I help photographers run profitable, sustainable businesses that they love. Each week on the podcast, I cover simple, actionable strategies and systems that photographers at every level of experience can use to earn more money in a more sustainable way. Running a photography business doesn't have to be that hard. You can do it and I can show you how. Emily Kim, welcome to this Can't Be that Hard. I have been looking forward to our conversation for what feels like months at this point. How have you been?
- [02:08]
B
I know I'm doing great. I'm so excited to be here. It has been a long time coming.
- [02:14]
A
Yes, indeed. You and I met at the Reset conference in Florida last spring and we bonded over our shared love of Airtable, had a whole little like breakfast meeting just to nerd out about that, and I went to your talk, which I super enjoyed. Immediately I knew that we were cut from the same cloth, sort of had the same approach, this sort of business first approach, which is perhaps not the most popular, but it's a useful one for people. And so, yeah, before that weekend was up, I was like, I need you on my podcast. I want you to come have a conversation with me there. This is gonna be a good one. And I, I love, I mean, I love the brand work that you do, but I also love the way that you think about it in this kind of systematic, you know, we're not just kind of leading with our gut. We have, you know, we go into this with a plan and a system and you've been so successful with it. So I'm excited to dive into all the details. But before we do, I would love for you to take a minute and introduce yourself. Let everybody know who you are, where you are, what you do all.
- [03:16]
B
Absolutely. Thanks again for having me. I'm so excited. So I am Emily Kim. I am a software engineer turned brand photographer turned business mentor for other photographers. So the long story short is I, the reason I have such a systems brain is because I thought I was going to be an engineer, I was going to climb the corporate ladder, decided that wasn't for me, left my job, became a full time brand photographer. But that type of thinking and just the way that my brain works lends really well to running a business. And I think you described it perfectly. I'm definitely a systems first kind of person and I feel like I'm always toeing the line between super right brain creative and super left brain engineer thinking systems. Started my business in California, moved it over to the coast, so I've kind of been all over, but now I've been here for a couple years and I love it.
- [04:09]
A
That's awesome. And we get to record in east coast time, which is always helpful for me because I'm best in the morning. I'm well caffeinated. So I love your software engineer background because it's pretty unusual obviously in the photography world, but this is, it really is my favorite thing, no matter what the funny cross section is. I love talking to other photographers who come from either a very different background or, or have a very different skill set outside of photography that lights them up and, you know, kind of gets them going. Because I feel like we as creatives are at our best when we embrace the intersection of our seemingly disparate passions and things that we enjoy. I think that it can be easy to try and suppress, like, oh, that was my past life and now I'm in this new life. But the truth is that our stories and our journeys all wind around a fair amount and when we incorporate the whole big picture, we tend. I, I just feel like it contributes to the variety of the output that you get and we all have different, obviously, strengths, and that comes down to our art and our businesses and our systems and all that sort of stuff. And when I get to share those kinds of conversations here on the podcast, I feel like it's an inspiration to a lot of people who may not be even aware of how some past, you know, hobby or career path or, you know, just general interest can really inform the work that they do. So that was a long preamble for me to say that I, you know, I feel like it's such a worthwhile thing to, to raise again and again and to highlight. So, yeah, so thanks for adding that piece into your bio. It's so good. So you have been doing brand photography for how long? I know that was where you started in your business. I don't remember off the top of my head exactly how long you've been in business.
- [06:11]
B
So since 2018. That's when I guess officially started my business. Got my business license, got my bank account, did all of the official things. When I first started taking money from people, though, for photos, I was doing college graduation portraits. So I started in doing portraits. And then slowly over time, people just kept asking me to do photos for their business. It wasn't something that I sought out. I just kept having people find me on Instagram. And then I realized, wait, I actually really like this because speaking of blending all of your past experiences, so I got my bachelor's degree in computer science and I also have my mba. So I've always been very entrepreneurial minded. I've always been interested in business. I ran an Etsy store in high school. I always loved running a business of sorts. So when these business owners wanted me to take marketing photos for their business, I said, you know what, this is actually a really great place for me to be. So I officially niched down and started calling myself a brand photographer in 2019. And I've been doing it ever since. Nice.
- [07:22]
A
Yeah, well, that's not. I know. It's funny how those first years of business feel so, so long and drawn out to us because of course, like, you're going through each and every little micro step and every session that you get feels huge and all this sort of thing. But yeah, going, having that sort of niche, direction change, whatever, within the first year really is actually quite fast. And so I, you know, if I were to look at the arc of your business, I would say that that was. That that's who you've been almost the whole time. Almost. Nobody starts, you know, in the exact niche that they land in forever. And since then, since you moved to Boston, you have kind of developed. Started developing. And I shouldn't even say started. You are, like, well into the education sector as well. Tell me a little bit. I know that's not what we're talking about, but I would love to hear a little bit about how that came to be.
- [08:17]
B
Yeah, I've been doing this for quite some time now. Another natural progression. I just had photographers keep asking me, hey, would you. Can I pay you for an hour of your time?
- [08:28]
A
Sure.
- [08:28]
B
And can you tell me about how you light things? Can you tell me about how you plan sessions with your client? Can I just ask you a bunch of questions? And I. That would just be really helpful for me. And so I said, okay, yeah, you can. We can do that. That sounds like fun. So another natural progression. And since then, I've had people, different people in different stages, stages of their business, and I've noticed patterns across what people ask and what stage they're in. So I said to myself, you know what, this would make a lot of sense if I turn this into some kind of course or group program. So I've done that for a few different facets. I have an SEO course, and the main thing that I do right now is I have a group coaching membership called the Profitable Creatives Club. We have mostly photographers, but also other creative niches like makeup artists. I have a couple of coaches, website designers, and we talk about the business side of things. It's a community where you can get support of like, hey, this is what this client said to me. I don't really know what to say. How do I manage this? And we also talk a lot about the business development side of things. I feel like this is so common amongst creatives, but most of the time what happens is someone's like, hey, I know you're good at this. Can I give you money to do it? That's what happened to me. Someone paid me $30 to take photos for them the first time I got paid. And then all of a sudden you have a business and you're like, well, how do I run this? I know what I like to do. I like taking pictures. How do I collect money? How do I market myself? How do I manage all of this? And that's what I really like doing. I joke around and say, I probably could have started a business doing anything. I just happened to have a camera at the time. Yep. But I really love that side of running a business. Marketing yourself, putting together your core offer, showing what you do, your portfolio Work updating your website. I just love all of the backend stuff, which is probably pretty opposite of most photographers, but that's hard for me.
- [10:34]
A
This is part of where I feel like you and I are cut from the same cloth. And again I for a long time felt embarrassed about that. There are still some conversations that I get into where I'm like, haha, I'm, I'm a fake artist. Which is like total crack. Like that's crazy. I've been doing this for a long time and I am good at it. But it is funny how we tend to kind of hide the parts of ourselves or our businesses that we feel like don't fit the mold. And I just have gone 180, fully 180 on my beliefs around that because I think that the more of us who are do happen to have that side of our personalities that can come forward and say, hey, let me show you how I'm doing this successfully the better. Because there are a lot of people out there who aren't so great at that side of it. And in order to continue running a business and you know, being successful with the thing that they love, they, you know, they've got to figure out a way forward which actually transitions really nicely into what we're talking about today. Which is really just some of the common questions that you get about brand photography. I feel like brand photography is the it girl right now in the photography world. Like there is so much appetite, just this like insatiable appetite for brand photos. And I think a lot of brands, obviously non photographers in particular, get really bogged down trying to keep up with generating enough high quality content that is representative of their brand, that is up to date, that is, you know, relevant and like on trend and all that sort of stuff while they're running a business as a, you know, fill in the blank here, whatever it is that they happen to be doing. And the, you know, Instagrams and the Tiktoks and the just general website, the way that SEO and websites work require that those people have fresh content on a regular basis. So brand photography is in very high demand right now. A lot of portrait photographers that I know in particular, but also wedding photographers, senior photographers, it's a pretty obvious transition. And what's nice, I think, about brand photography or what's appealing to a lot of photographers about brand photography, let's say you're a wedding photographer or a family photographer and you do a lot of the work that is kind of your bread and butter on the weekend. Brand photography is something that you can do on a Thursday morning or like a Tuesday afternoon. And that is, you know, it allows you to sort of add an element to your business that doesn't cannibalize or, you know, take over this other part. So I get questions all the time about people wanting to get into brand photography. And I figured since I am very much not the right person to answer those, that was. That was why I wanted to have this conversation with you. So I'm just gonna kind of like talk to you about the questions that I get a lot. And the first one really being what the difference is between portrait photography and brand photography. Because I think a lot of people are like, you know, they'll have a client that says, oh, great, you did such a nice job with our wedding. I have this business. Would you come and do these brand photos for me? And they're used to doing events, they're used to doing portraits for, you know, engagement sessions, whatever. And then as they approach this brand session, or maybe when they're in the midst of it, who are like, I don't really know if I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing. I know how to, you know, get good exposure and expression and all that sort of stuff. But, like, what. What is the main difference between portrait photography and brand photography specifically?
- [14:15]
B
I love this question. I get this question a lot, too, of people who start in portraits or weddings or families or whatever it is, and start offering brand photography, because people keep asking them, they got great family photos, and then they also run a business or want headshots, and then it slowly evolves into brand photography. But I think there's a distinction that we can make here of a brand photographer versus a photographer who just offers branding. There's very slight difference when people first get into brand photography, what they deliver and what I delivered for my first quote, unquote, brand photography session was a gallery of portraits of a business owner. So it wasn't really different from what I would deliver for a regular portrait session, like a college graduation session. They'd be a lot of the same types of pictures, compositions. The main thing was every single photo featured the human, the person in it, their face smiling either at the camera, looking away from the camera. Maybe sometimes we would have different expressions. But a gallery of portraits is not necessarily a brand photography gallery. And the main distinction is when you shoot a brand photography session, the most important thing to think about is the end use of the photos. So for portraits, what is the end use of a portrait? It's going to go On a wall, on a gallery, it's going to go in an album, you're going to print it, it's going to be displayed somewhere in your home.
- [15:50]
A
Sure.
- [15:50]
B
But a brand photography session and gallery, those are going to be used in marketing assets. So you should be thinking about, okay, can this person use this photo in their marketing? And then that opens the door of like, oh, wow, I really need to be thinking about this differently. So instead of delivering only portraits, we need to incorporate things like detail shots, but also different crops, different compositions, lots of negative space. Because if you think about how people use marketing assets, well, you typically need a lot of negative space because they're always adding content to the photos. Whether it's, yeah, yeah, text on the photos. If they're going to use it in an ad, there's usually text over the ad. If they're going to use it on an Instagram story, you usually need some space for text up to the top or to the bottom or wherever. And then my favorite example on a website, if you had. If you're working on your own website and all you have are pictures of your face and you're just scrolling on your website and it's just your face over and over again, most people don't really like that because they're like, get me out of here. I don't want my face everywhere. So the brand session should be able to fill in those gaps so that when you deliver it to your client, they don't feel so overwhelmed by seeing their face everywhere.
- [17:07]
A
Right, right, right, right. Now, do you. I'm assuming that you have that conversation with someone ahead of time. Like, we're going to be taking a lot of photos of you, but we're also going to be taking photos of your environment and, you know, the things, the tools and the whatever so that they can kind of come prepar. Do you ever get any pushback about that where somebody is like, well, I can just take those photos myself or are they like, how does that part of the conversation work?
- [17:37]
B
I don't think I've ever had any pushback on it. Usually the response is, oh, my gosh, thank you so much for delivering more than just my face. I love using these. And another super frequent interaction that I have with the web designers of my clients is they will email me after receiving their gallery and say, you thank. Thank you so much for these details. I usually do not have enough of these. It's usually just their face and then they have to go in and crop the photos themselves. And even if I work with someone who is on top of their content game and they're creating content for themselves, it's just a nice day for them to be totally taken care of and not have to worry about any of the details because they can do some of these detail shots for themselves if they're, you know, savvy with their content creation. But even when I work with those types of people, they're like, thank you so much for taking the creative burden off of me. This was so great. I just got to show up. I got pampered in hair and makeup. Like this was a all around great experience for me. And they usually can take away different ideas that we do together and it's just a win win for everyone.
- [18:47]
A
Amazing. Well, that makes perfect sense to me. And as obviously, like as a photographer and as somebody who has spent years dealing with websites and social media and all that sort of stuff, like, I feel like I know that, but I can imagine a world where somebody's like, so I'm paying you a whole bunch of money and you know, if I'm not, if this isn't an all inclusive package, potentially, like, I don't know if I want a picture of a jar of pins to go, you know, count against my account or whatever. But I, it is, it's true. It's like, especially when it comes to your website, but also social media. Most of us don't just want to put ourselves front and center over and over and over again. It feels, I don't want to say egocentric, but maybe a little so part of, I guess that question and your answer leads me into these next two questions which kind of go hand in hand. So maybe I'll just give them to you at the same time. Location choice for a brand session can be kind of obvious, right? So if somebody is like, works in an office, maybe it makes sense to do photo photos at the office. Or if they have a retail location, you're going to want to obviously be in that location. But it's also potentially challenging if you've got a place that's not particularly photogenic or has bad lighting, that sort of thing. So I'd love to hear a little bit more about how you talk to your clients or potential clients about locations, but then also the stuff that you encourage people to bring or have on hand. If you're going on location in their space, do you just kind of wing it when you get there and kind of give them a brainstorming list and then just see what you see or is that something that you do A lot of planning ahead of time for.
- [20:32]
B
I am so type A. If I have to wing a session, I'm just like, I, I can't. Like, this is just too much for me. And I think that's another really big distinction between portrait photography and brand photography. In brand photography, I do a lot of upfront discovery work before I am on set. So what that looks like for me, we have our sales call, you know, where they decide if they're going to book with me. And then I have them fill out a brand questionnaire, which, if you've ever worked with a website designer or a brand designer, you may have gone through this experience yourself. But I ask them about their visual branding, colors, their logo, that kind of stuff. And I also ask what their business goals are, because I always want to make sure that I'm creating photos that they can use in the long term in their marketing. I don't want them to feel like in the next two months, their brand photos are, quote, unquote, outdated by then. So that's why I ask for this stuff up front. And that kicks off the process of brainstorming other potential locations and other props and tools that they use in their own business. And I do ask them upfront, do you have any locations in mind and do you have any tools or props in mind? Most of the time they have no idea location. They'll say, I don't know, my house, my office, question mark, a park. And then for props, usually the answer I get is, I'll bring my laptop, a journal and a book, which is a great start. Those are useful props. But then what we do is we hop on a photo shoot planning call, and on this call is where I really dig into what else can we bring. So I'll use the example of, I'll use a website designer, for example, because all of their work is on a computer.
- [22:12]
A
Sure.
- [22:13]
B
And when we think of props, our first thought is literal. Okay, a laptop, maybe a sketchbook. If they do stuff like that. And I'm always thinking, okay, what are some creative ways that we can bring their work off of the screen and represent it in the physical world? It's very. It's a very creative challenge for me. So some common things that I do with website designers, if we're thinking, okay, a laptop is a literal prop, the next literal, most literal thing is, well, they're probably making a wireframe for a website. Let's put it on paper, let's have you draw it out, let's print it out, let's just take it off the screen and put it in the physical world. So then at least we have something else we can take photos of. But then thinking a little bit more abstractly, which goes into locations as well, where do they get inspired? As a website designer, I had a client who was really inspired by beaches. She worked specifically doing branding and web design for more med spas, I think, like beauty professionals, nails, lashes, that kind of thing.
- [23:17]
A
Sure.
- [23:18]
B
And she got inspired at the beach. And a lot of her own branding you could see was very nature inspired, beach inspired. So I said, why don't we just go to the beach? Like, that's where you get inspired. And it fits great into her branding because that's.
- [23:34]
A
That's the color palette she's choosing and the. Yeah.
- [23:38]
B
So I think it's important to think a little bit outside of the box. And that takes some practice after doing a couple of brand sessions. But that's a question that I like to ask, is where do you get inspired? And then going back to props, I do have them bring all the literal, obvious props. If you go to Pinterest, the first things you'll see for. If you search props for a branding session are going to be your laptop, maybe a mug with your logo.
- [24:01]
A
Coffee mug, obviously. Yeah.
- [24:03]
B
Your branded colored pens. You have business cards, stuff like that. And I have people bring that because you never know. I like to have more stuff rather than not enough. But nowadays, because brand photography is becoming so much more popular, everybody is taking photos with their mug and a laptop and branded pens, and you see kind of the same stuff over and over again. So I'm always trying to think, well, what is something else that we could bring that represents you? Are there other colored details that are within your brand palette that aren't so literal? Are there little pieces of home decor, vases, flowers, cards, Just other visual things that are in line with your color palette that aren't so obvious. But I want to think of it as I'm creating on brand stock photos for you. So if you were to go pull a stock photo, what kind of prop would we have? So maybe it's not a coffee mug, but maybe it's a drink and we color the drink to be your brand color. That's fun. It's a fun little detail.
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A
Right.
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B
It's not like you have to be drinking some food coloring, but if you just have it in the background somewhere, it's just a fun detail.
- [25:12]
A
Sure. That nobody's really paying attention to, but it is contributing to rather than detracting from the overall story. It's clearly a very planned approach, and yet I hear you kind of stopping short of, let's go look at, you know, Pinterest for inspiration. Maybe there's a little bit of early inspiration there, but it sounds like, I mean, and I 100% get this in such a crowded market. The whole point of marketing is that you want to help somebody stand out, not look like everybody else. So you are kind of walking that fine line of like taking inspiration, but then taking it a step further. So beyond location and props, do you have any planning tips for someone who is getting ready for, you know, their first brand session or an early brand session, and they're looking for direction on how to plan without kind of copying what else is out there?
- [26:10]
B
I sure do. One of the things that I collect from my clients, I ask them to put together a Pinterest board of inspiration, but I ask them not to include only brand photos. So I tell them to find colors, textures, prints, artwork, architecture, things like that that inspire you, because those can also help inform props and location if they're very inspired by something architecturally. Well, can I find something out in the wild that kind of looks like that? How can I bring that into the shoot? But in terms of planning to get a little bit outside the box, I have, I do have a set of standard brand photos that I get for everyone, right? The lifestyle portraits. We'll do the laptop shots. Because even though I gripe about this a lot, I'm like, oh, I'm always so tired of seeing these people with their laptops and portraits. But I get them for all my clients. They're useful. I still use them, sure. But I'm always. My goal for every client is what kind of shot or idea or scene can I create for them? I want one unique set that I've never really seen before. So they're going to get what's in my portfolio, right? They're going to see expected brand photos. But my goal is always, how can I create something totally different that I have never seen before for this client? And there's lots of different ways that you can play with that. It doesn't necessarily have to be bringing in some crazy prop or doing some crazy set design. How can you play around with the light? How can you play around with movement? How can you look at the environment and look at unique crops or compositions. It doesn't have to be this brand new novel thing. I just, I have my. My framework of this is these are the shots I'm going to get for this client. Now how can I adjust and play within this framework to create something different or a little bit out of the box for them?
- [28:00]
A
Right.
- [28:00]
B
So I don't know if that answered your question.
- [28:02]
A
No. Well, I mean, it is one of those where it's like, it's not a color inside the lines situation, and it. It can be intimidating for people, especially when they're new to something, to kind of flex those creative muscles. But I think it' helpful. And this is true in a portrait session, at least for me as well. It's like, I'm going to take the photos that I know that every family that hires me is going to want. Like, there's going to be some sort of, you know, holiday cardi, like everybody smiling and looking at the camera kind of photo. We're going to get that done kind of as quickly as possible. I'm going to check that off my mental list. And then we're going to move into things that I have fun with that are going to be unique to that family and their house and their whatever. If I see a wall that inspires me, I'm gonna like, you know, pull that out or whatever. But it is. I wanna make sure that even though everybody gets what they want, they also get something that they love that they had no idea was coming. And I feel like if one were to take the same kind of mental approach to planning, it's like, I'm gonna show up with a plan and then I'm gonna be open to pushing the boundaries or I'm gonna force myself to push the boundaries.
- [29:10]
B
Yes. I always say show up with a plan, but leave room for magic. So sometimes I also get some type A clients that are just as type A as I am. And when you have two people like that, we're like, let's list out every single shot that we have to get. But then I have to remind myself, and I have to remind them, hey, I love this plan. I always come in with a plan. This is great. We are ready to go. But I like to leave room for magic, because most of the time, what happens, you know, you get on shoot. That's when my artist brain turns on. And usually my favorite shots and their favorite shots end up being something that was totally unplanned. You just saw it in the moment. Even when I got my brand photos done, I knew exactly what I wanted. I was like, this is the set. This is what I want. But then we had this unplanned situation where she had my photographer had bubbles, and we had two rolls of seamless paper. Unrolled and I was like, wait a minute, what if we just like put these two like this pink and yellow up and we had bubbles going and this wasn't on the shot list, but it ended up being one of my favorite photos. It's one of her favorite photos. And had I just followed my list a hundred percent to the T and stuffed my schedule to the brim with pre planned shots, we wouldn't have had enough time to play around and do stuff like that. That's what I really love about brand photography is I feel like I have so much more control over the situation and managing the client versus I've never done families. I applaud anyone that does. I. Whenever a kid starts running around, I'm like, I do not have the tools to manage this situation. So I am so impressed by people that do. But with a brand photography session, I am generally dealing with adults most of the time.
- [30:49]
A
Yeah, sure.
- [30:50]
B
And you get a lot of control and you can direct the client a lot more than something like a wedding, but you can't. You don't really have a lot of control over what happens on a wedding day. But that's one thing that I really enjoy about brand photography is you have the creative control and you can steer the client in a direction that's going to work well for them versus having them or having the circumstances of the day dictate how the session goes. Nice.
- [31:18]
A
Okay. So that control and that level of like, first we're going to do this and first we're going to do this or next we're going to do this really brings me to the final question that I had for you. That's one that I feel like a lot of photographers who are getting into brand photography come out with, which is just like, okay, great. I'm used to, you know, during a wedding when I pull a couple aside and we're going to do couples photos, I have sort of a posing flow and we can quickly move through and get all the photos. Or somebody who does senior portraits is like, here are the poses that I like and this is how I prompt somebody through those. I am assuming based on what you're saying that you have a pretty locked in posing flow for your brand clients. Is that true?
- [32:03]
B
It is not. I actually don't have a posing flow. And this, I get this question a lot. So the very first time I taught an in person brand photography workshop, almost all the students kept asking me, but what's your posing flow? I was talking about my whole process behind it, the planning and how we set up these shots and the props. And they kept asking, but what's your posing flow? And I hesitated for a bit because I was like, what? What is my posing flow? I don't have one. And now that I've had some time to sit on it and think, because I was like, maybe I do. Let me, like, write this down. It doesn't exist. I don't have a posing flow for brand photography. Because going back to the distinction between a portrait session and a brand photography session, in portrait sessions, the pose really is the shot. Sure, you can have some landscapes or details or outfit details or whatever, but the person and the human, that is the session. That is the whole shot.
- [33:00]
A
Right, right, right.
- [33:01]
B
In brand photography, the business owner, the personal brand, whoever you're photographing, they're important, but you also need to be photographing the environment that they're in. Like I said, getting photos without their face in it. So the basic rules of posing apply. You know, you have people turn certain ways, angle their head a certain way. The basic rules. But I don't have a flow from, oh, I'm gonna have you stand and then sit and then lean and do all of this stuff. Because I'm just thinking about the end result of how they're going to be using this photo. So all that to say, in brand photography, you have a lot more flexibility. And the client, having them feel comfortable is a lot easier because you get so many breaks in between the session. You don't really need the flow. Because if I think about what is a common set for me, I'll have somebody sitting at a desk or a table or something, I'll have them smile at me. I'll have them smile at whatever they're working on, if they're drawing something or painting or working on their computer. And then I'll say, okay, you can relax. I'm just gonna get pictures of your hands now. Or I'm just gonna get pictures of the stuff. So you just.
- [34:13]
A
You're there.
- [34:13]
B
You're still kinda. You're basically a prop in the photo. But you don't have to worry about smiling. And because you have these little breaks you don't have to worry so much about. Let me make sure the client feels natural and not awkward and flows throughout the rest of the session, which is really important in things like maternity and family. Because you're managing the kids and the couple, you want to get through it as quickly as possible. But because you have all this control and brand photography and all of these different breaks, you don't really need that flow because you can just move them and they can relax and they have like 10 minutes where they're just chilling and then you move them again and then I'm only photographing their hands and then there's an outfit change. It's a lot easier to get what you need and the client won't feel awkward because you have all this other stuff in between.
- [35:02]
A
Right, right, yeah, that makes perfect sense. In fact, as a family photographer, I kind of have a similar approach. When, for instance, a toddler melts down and is just like, we're not going to be able to make any photos of that toddler for a little while. My whole thing is like, okay, great, I'm going to pivot. I'm either going to go photograph the baby in the other room or it's going to be time for like mom and dad to have photos on their own. And like, we're going to give little Johnny a chance to go sit and, you know, quietly regulate himself or whatever the case may be, because we do all need those breaks. When I sense that like the parents are getting overwhelmed, whatever, I'll be like, oh, great, you know, go over there and hang out for a little bit. I'm going to go do this over here. And I feel like that pacing is super important to making people comfortable, to keeping them loose and relaxed and ultimately getting the best expression. Question. So I love that answer when people are asking me about that. I'm like, I don't have any idea what to tell you when it comes to brand photography stuff. So, yeah, I'm right there with you with the like, non flow, posing flow. But I know that that does not necessarily mean, as you've said, that you don't go to a session with a shot list in mind and tell us a little bit more about how you put your shot list together and how you recommend other people do that.
- [36:23]
B
Yes. So this, I've built a tool and this tool was born out of that question of, well, what's your posing flow? And I'm like, I don't have one, but I have a formula for how I put together the shot list and where I'm gonna put the client and the different compositions that I'm going to get. And I have like this five by five method where you pick a foundational shot. So every brand session has five foundation shots that you need. And then I have what I'm calling these multipliers of how can I take this foundation shot and then apply these multipliers and turn one foundation shot of somebody sitting at their laptop into 5, 10, 15 unique shots, even though they're just in one pose. Because another question I get is, Emily, I am running out of ideas. I don't know how to deliver all of these photos that these people are expecting. And the way that I'm able to do it quickly and easily and no stress is through this five by five method that I have. So this free tool that I have, it's called my brand Photo Shot List Builder, walks you through that process. It's so fun. It's interactive, but basically you pick a foundation shot, you pick a multiplier, and then my own brand photos will pop up and I can, I'll show you examples of how I've applied this five by five method to my own brand photography session. So you get a visual and then you can select your favorites, you can copy the shot list, add it into your own brand photography plan. But that's the basis of how I come up with these baseline shots that I need for every client. And it also helps me think out of the box because I know, okay, I have my basis and then I don't have to stress about, oh, like, what do I need to get for this client to make sure I hit my image quota? I know I'm going to get it. Like, I could walk in and even though I love having a plan, but because I've been doing this so long and I have that five by five method, I could probably walk into a shoot unplanned and still get the variety that I need. But it just eliminates a lot of stress for me because I got the basics, I can be creative and come up with these unique shots that will end up being their favorites when we leave room for magic on shoot day. But like I said, that's called my brand Photo Shot List Builder. It is not just a simple checklist. I used to have a freebie that was a checklist. I have since upgraded it and it will walk you through exactly how to build out a shot list for your first or next brand photo shoot.
- [38:48]
A
I love that. And I feel like having a framework is so useful. I don't have anything as clever or official sounding as a five by five framework. But starting early in my career when I would get like stuck in a session where I was like, I don't know what to do next. And of course you have to maintain that look on your face of like, oh, yeah, this is always. I love this part. Even though you're like, ah, the sun is terrible and the kids are melting down. Whatever. I used to think back to. I don't know if you ever watched Sesame street, but Grover used to do this thing where it was like, near, far. And so I did this. I made this list for myself that was like, near, far, up, down, motion. What was the other. Anyway, I had this little checklist and it was like, if you are feeling stuck, go to one of those. So if I'm close up to the people, switch and move to far. If I'm taking photos standing on my two feet now it's time to get down on the ground or stand up on a chair or like, you know, so anyway, just variety for the sake of changing one's perspective can also be a good piece of that. But it sounds like an amazing tool. I can't wait to. I'm gonna go snoop on it and see how you made it interactive and all that sort of thing. I love all the ways the technology makes these things more fun. Totally. So tell people where they can find.
- [40:04]
B
That you can find the brand photography shot list at emilykim Co. Tcbth, the acronym for can't be that hard.
- [40:12]
A
That can't be that hard. I love it.
- [40:14]
B
Yes. Special link. And you can grab it there for free.
- [40:18]
A
Nice. And what about general finding you, following you, all that good stuff.
- [40:22]
B
So I am on Instagram @emilykim.co. that's co. And I'm on YouTube. Emily Kimco without the dot. And in most places, emilykim co. I'm mostly on Instagram threads and YouTube.
- [40:38]
A
Love it. So good. Well, Emily, it has been so fun reconnecting. I know that this is gonna be hugely helpful for a lot of people who are looking to either add branding or just kind of get better in the branding world with their approach, because it can feel kind of haphazard. I think for a lot of people who are like, they want to take advantage of the trend, they want to add this in, and it's such a great way to round out your offerings. So thank you so much for sharing what you've got.
- [41:10]
B
You're so welcome, and thank you for having me. This is so fun. Of course.
- [41:13]
A
Have a great day.
- [41:15]
B
You too.
- [41:17]
A
That's it for this week's episode of this Can't Be that Hard. I'll be back same time, same place next week. If you like the show, be sure to check out thiscan'tbethathard.com to explain. Explore all the resources we have for photographers. And of course, it would mean the world to me if you would leave a review of the show on itunes. Or Spotify. As always, thanks so much for joining me. I hope you have a fantastic week.