← This Can't Be That Hard
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- [00:00]
Annami Tonkin
Hey, friends.
- [00:01]
Podcast Host / Narrator
In an effort to give myself and my team a little time away from.
- [00:04]
Annami Tonkin
The podcast here at the end of.
- [00:06]
Podcast Host / Narrator
The year, I've asked a few of my podcast host friends to let me share conversations that I had with them on their podcasts this year. I always love the process of being a guest because no matter how long I've been doing this podcast thing, I always have a totally different experience when I'm on the other side of the microphone.
- [00:25]
Annami Tonkin
And. And today I'm sharing a conversation that.
- [00:27]
Podcast Host / Narrator
I had with the lovely Leah o' Connell on her podcast, Photo Fuel. Leah is such a thoughtful host. She's such a thoughtful human being in general. And we went deep on some big picture topics that I think every creative business owner wrestles with at some point. Things like risk, failure, ego, and what it really means to build a business that lasts. We also talked about how creativity shows up in our work and and in our business decisions, along with the art of staying flexible when things change. And why sometimes the smartest move isn't blowing everything up, but just adjusting your.
- [01:04]
Annami Tonkin
Sales a little bit.
- [01:06]
Podcast Host / Narrator
I wanted to reshare this one now because it's such a good reminder that success in photography isn't just about tactics. It really is about perspective. So whether you're in a growth season or one that feels a little shaky, I. I think this episode will help you see the bigger picture and give you permission to build your business your way. Let's dive into it. Welcome to this Can't Be that Hard. My name is Annami Tonkin and I help photographers run profitable, sustainable businesses that they love. Each week on the podcast, I cover simple, actionable strategies and systems that photographers at every level of experience can use to earn more money in a more sustainable way. Running a photography business doesn't have to be that hard.
- [01:50]
Annami Tonkin
You can do it, and I can show you how.
- [01:56]
Leah O'Connell
Okay. Good morning, Anime. Thank you so much for being with us today.
- [02:00]
Annami Tonkin
It is my super pleasure. How are you?
- [02:03]
Leah O'Connell
I'm doing great. The sun is shining and it's spring, so there's some sort of hope happening, right? I know you have shared so much on your podcast. This can't be that hard. I'm sure everyone listening here knows you. If you don't, I don't know where you've been living in the photography world. Anime and I had the privilege of meeting one another at Reset Conference recently and I was on her podcast a few months ago. So we're continuing the conversation here. And you know, given the state of the world and the photography industry, in quarter one that I'm sure a lot of people have been experiencing. We're going to kind of go deep and wide here with entrepreneurship and good characteristics of small business ownership. Which anime you have a lot of experience with.
- [02:51]
Annami Tonkin
Yeah, it's a funny thing to, you know what's weird is how like, and maybe this is not, I'm sure it's not just me, but maybe it's not universal. I feel like in the world, my experience in all kinds of different things has been I feel like the super newbie until all of a sudden I turn around and I'm like, oh wait, now I'm the person that people feel like I've got my stuff together. And how, how did I get to that part? Like, I feel like I skipped the middle somehow. But. But yeah, I guess I have been an entrepreneur for a long time. Even though I sometimes still feel like I'm just kind of figuring it out.
- [03:28]
Leah O'Connell
It's refreshing to hear that just never kind of goes away. But I think, yeah, people, we also don't really realize what our skills are until we pull back and we're like, oh, I actually have done a lot or I actually do know how to X, Y or Z. And sometimes we're just so in it as a solopreneur that we just don't even see that yet. You know, I do think that like entrepreneurs have this like willingness to take risk that's sort of inherent, but at the same time we tend to be nervous about breaking the mold a little bit about like doing the different thing. And you mentioned recently how like a lot of your best ideas have come from like a season of intense pressure or like everything's about to fall apart and I gotta make a move now kind of feeling. So how, how do you feel like risk and pressure plays into this role of entrepreneurship in a positive way?
- [04:25]
Annami Tonkin
Yeah, well, I, I want to take it back to what you're saying about like a lot of people feel it as risk and pressure. And certainly the seasons of my career that have launched some of my bigger ideas and the bigger have turned out to be the sort of turning points in my business in a positive way. At the time felt really stressful and nerve wracking and whatever. But I often think that I have kind of a secret superpower as a photographer entrepreneur in that I came to this from a healthcare background. So I was a labor and delivery nurse and I grew up in a medical family. My parents were both medical. I did not get any extra help when it came to running a business. My parents were both like, you want to do what? That seems really risky and crazy, but the truth is that when I was working as a labor and delivery nurse, I was at a level 4 trauma center. People were being flown in from all over the state with these. I mean, we had plenty of low risk births too, but, you know, there were people who were extremely medically complicated babies that were extremely medically complicated. Sad situations, bad situations, all kinds of different stuff. And you know, when I walked into work every day, I had no idea what was waiting for me or what might just like show up in the middle of the shift. And it was, I mean, not to be, not to overstate it, but it was literally life and death at times. And I, I think that when I started my photography business, concurrent with that job, like I was actually, I took time off from a master's program in midwifery to explore the idea of starting a photography business. So I was still working as a nurse for two years as I started my business. And I just think that it gave me this perspective of like, look, if I flub a session or if I send out an email with a big typo in it, or if I make a, you know, an investment of time or money that doesn't quite pay off, literally, what's the worst that could happen? I could be embarrassed. I could, somebody could get mad at me. And that's actually kind of, I mean, maybe I would lose some money, but I wasn't out there risking my grocery bill. You know, I wasn't like, I wasn't banking money that I didn't have. Or I hear these stories sometimes from entrepreneurs who talk about like, I was at rock bottom and I spent a bunch of money on a credit card that I didn't have. And I'm like, don't go in there, don't do that.
- [07:08]
Leah O'Connell
It's not the time for that. Yeah.
- [07:10]
Annami Tonkin
Because you hear the stories from people who ended up having success, but we know that that's the, that's just, you know, whatever the, the 5% or whatever. I have always been pretty conservative when it comes to making investments. And the nice thing about the photography industry or the photography business is that like, even the big investments, even the, like mentorship or the expensive course or the new lens or whatever, there it. That's an amount of money that you can go out and make pretty quickly versus, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt that you might take on if you, for instance, go to get a PhD in whatever.
- [07:50]
Leah O'Connell
Yeah. And then never end up.
- [07:52]
Annami Tonkin
Yeah, yeah. And like, whenever you're the one who's on the line, or your ego is on the line, or your pride is on the line or whatever the case may be, those or your dollars, those feel like big risks. But if you can be objective about them and put them in the bigger context of, like, what am I actually risking here? What is the worst that could happen? I think that it brings clarity and gives you confidence because it's kind of my, you know, equation has always been, like, it's worth a shot. I'm worth banking on. Yeah, why not? And I often will look around and be like, if them, why not me?
- [08:35]
Leah O'Connell
Right?
- [08:35]
Annami Tonkin
You know, what does that person have that I don't have? And obviously there are plenty of people out there who have all kinds of, like, skills and talents and things that I don't have, but we all have a mixture of. And so anyway, that was a really long winded answer to a short question. Um, but it is. I. When I think about it, and especially when I'm talking to people who are either new to business, considering a business, or like, at a crossroads in their business and they're really struggling and thinking like, something has to change, Something has to change. I hate seeing people not be willing to take the risk on themselves in this very safe environment. Because I just think that maybe you, and I'm putting this in air quotes, waste a few thousand dollars, or maybe you waste. I can't even say waste six months, because I really do think that when you're pursuing something that you feel passionate about, you learn something at minimum. But so maybe it sort of doesn't pay off in the way that you want it to, but there's so much to be gained from that process. And in entrepreneurship, I've had plenty of failures out there in the 15 years, 16 years that I've been doing this, but if I wasn't willing to, it's like you can't make the shots you don't take, as my JV basketball coach in high school used to say. And I just feel like it's worth a shot in this field.
- [10:04]
Leah O'Connell
But yeah, there's. I think there's a difference too. Like one ego. And that sounds like a negative term, but it really is like our own perception or fear of embarrassment. I do think that is one of the big things that gets in the way of that risk taking or makes the risk feel bigger than it is. So that perspective of, like, when you say risk, like, what are we actually talking about here? And, like, are you willing to just risk moving on, like, just thinking that, like, I'm going to take my shot because, yeah, I mean, like, what's the worst that could happen with, like, what. It doesn't go well. Nobody books. Okay, you. Makes those pivots feel a little bit easier. And there's a difference, too. The other thing that I was thinking as you were talking was like, I think there's a difference between quitting and misalignment. Like, like, if it's. If something's not feeling right in the direction that you're trying, or like the, you know, you're not just, like, throwing out mini sessions and events and marketing campaigns and different kinds of shooting and editing and just throwing spaghetti at the wall. Like, there's misalignment with what you're trying, and then there's just, like, I'm not even going to try, or, like, this isn't working, so I'm going to quit. Like, I don't know if that makes any sense, but I think that, like, when you can determine where things feel off and make smart changes from those failures, quote unquote, then, like, it's different than just being like, well, I tried it and didn't work, and now I'm done.
- [11:29]
Annami Tonkin
You know, that makes so much sense. And it actually makes so much sense right now in the context of parenting life. I've got teenagers and. And they're both in the process of applying for jobs for the summer and with both of them, and they're both amazing kids and so different from me, which I feel like is its own learning curve and sort of. It's very humbling at times. They certainly call me out on all kinds of things, but. But I feel like one of the things that I have been kind of coaching them through is they have this idea in their head, like, this is the job that I want. I'm going to put all of my eggs in that basket. This is how they both started the job search process this year. And then, at least in the case of my older son, he applied for this job in California that he wanted and he didn't get it. And then he was like, well, I guess I'm just going to move home. And it's that thought distortion of all or nothing thinking, right? And I was like, how about you send out 20 applic?
- [12:33]
Podcast Host / Narrator
Yeah.
- [12:34]
Annami Tonkin
And who knows? Like, you know, see, it's not as though you have to take a job that's offered to you. So then he started, you know, now he's in the process of interviewing with all these other different places. And I'M like, great. Something is bound to work out. And that is such a. Just the process in and of itself is. Is a valuable lesson. But. But I believe you know, that he will if, you know, what is it the shoot for the stars and you land on the moon or.
- [13:04]
Leah O'Connell
We're full of metaphors today.
- [13:06]
Annami Tonkin
I know, I know, I'm using other people's words as a crutch. But the point being that like, you just have to. You have to keep betting on yourself. And sometimes as a parent, for anybody who's listening, who has kids, you find yourself telling your kids something and then like in the middle of the night, you're lying there and you're like, I need to listen to that advice 100%. You're like, oh, wait, yeah, as an entrepreneur, it's like, okay, so that didn't work. That doesn't mean you have to shut down your business now. It's just time to like, pick up the pieces, see what maybe went wrong with the last plan and iterate.
- [13:42]
Leah O'Connell
Yeah. There's also that, like, what are those statistics of like, women who don't apply for jobs unless they're like 100% qualified? And like the likelihood of a man to apply to something if like, they're only like 40% qualified or something like that. And it does seem like our, you know, we hang ourselves up like, no matter what how you identify, like, there's a tendency to hang ourselves up if, like, if I don't meet all of these exact like random wish list that somebody said that they wanted. And I know we're talking broadly about like, jobs, but this applies in photography of like, how am I gonna like, book these sessions? Or like, what is my ideal client? And it's like, well, it might be a little bit more broad than that specific avata like that than. Than you thought. Like, what else do they have in common? Where else could you form these connections? And like thinking a little bit more broadly about what you have to offer and it might not be those pinpointed bullet that you thought it was, you know.
- [14:46]
Annami Tonkin
Yeah. I mean, oftentimes it's not. And that it kind of comes back to the shoot for the moon thing where it's like, we cr. I think it's a good exercise to build that avatar in your mind. I think it helps sort of direct your messaging. It helps you figure out, you know, when you're thinking through an offer or something like that. You can get some clarity by imagining this specific individual, the chances that that individual with all the boxes checked is out There like waiting to book you as far as slim to maybe none. Right. But. But if you kind of aim in that general direction, chances are you're going to find the path forward in that general direction.
- [15:33]
Leah O'Connell
Right. In that general scope of, of ideas. It's not. Has to check every single box.
- [15:39]
Annami Tonkin
And the thing is, we are always refining. I mean, it's funny to me how now, 15 years into my photography business, I am still kind of refining my ideal client avatar. Right. Like, I periodically, I'm like, oh, you know what? I love it when clients have this piece to the puzzle or whatever. And of course that may be unique to the one client that I'm working with and I may never see that again, but it informs the bigger picture. And you wouldn't know that if you were inflexible about a lot of things.
- [16:16]
Leah O'Connell
Yeah, that. Because also, like, we as artists and photographers change too. Like, your dream client one year could be different than like, you might really love like super active young kids at one point and then later you're like, you know, I really love working with teens now. My idea client has totally shifted. And unless you're doing that reflection and constantly iterating, then there's going to be again that misalignment.
- [16:40]
Annami Tonkin
And I think one of the things that is inherent to creatives, like something that we share is this, I don't want to say short attention span. I think in some ways we go really deep. But I do think that sometimes there is this. Once we've conquered something, once we've kind of mastered something, our creative brains want something new to try. Like, we are hardwired to avoid being in a rut. And when we become like, when we find ourselves in a rut, then all of a sudden we're bored. Art suffers. Our, you know, we're like, meh, I don't like this job that I worked so hard to build. Yeah. Discomfort. Yeah. And if you allow that to turn into true burnout and you're not willing to kind of reflect, change, iterate, whatever, that's when people are like, well, I'm just going to close my business. And that's, that's a shame, I think, because there's so much more to explore out there.
- [17:39]
Leah O'Connell
Yeah. As someone who has talked to and interviewed lots of photographers over the years in different genres, experience levels across the country, you talk about photography a lot. So do you notice any, like, common threads between those people who do tend to like, stick it out and like, really make it like, crack the code as like this legit business versus the people who just sort of, like, whittle out as a hobby.
- [18:06]
Annami Tonkin
Yeah. Yes. One is a willingness to try something that they're not sure.
- [18:14]
Leah O'Connell
Sure about. Yeah.
- [18:16]
Annami Tonkin
And. And a willingness to fail and then keep going. If you are in business long enough, you will fail, period. Like, you'll fail at something. And. And so there's no question that if you're. Honestly, if you've been around for more than, let's say, a couple of years, like, chances are you've already racked up a handful of. Of things that you swung and missed on. So that's certainly thing number one is just the willingness to try again, but also the willingness to try again with the information that you've gathered from those.
- [18:52]
Leah O'Connell
To learn from those failures.
- [18:53]
Annami Tonkin
Yeah. Like the willingness to say, okay, maybe I could do that differently, and to not let those failures sort of weigh you down, because it, you know, it can be easy to then say, well, I'm never gonna. I don't know, invest in an online course or a mentorship again because I had this burden. Yeah. I was burned. Or, like, I'm never gonna do mini sessions again. The word never is just like, It's a dangerous word. Yeah. So that. And then. And then I think flexibility, because things change to your point from before. Your. Your own experience and desires and needs and all that sort of stuff change over time. Your interests, but also the. The world changes and the trends change and, you know, platforms change and all these different things. And so a willingness to be flexible, learn new things, try new things, see, you know, whether a new avenue fits. Right. Requires energy, and that can be hard. Right. But it's. I just think it's one of the necessary muscles to build if you want longevity in. In a co. In a creative. Yeah.
- [20:07]
Leah O'Connell
And I mean, that alone does, like, you know, you talked about the stagnation of, like, getting bored with, like, when you hit a certain level of mastery or just that fact alone of, like, the changing circumstances around you require you to be constantly changing. Like, that's a creative practice.
- [20:23]
Annami Tonkin
Yeah.
- [20:24]
Leah O'Connell
So I don't know. I always just keep that in my back pocket of, like, okay, I said I wanted to be creative. This is creative. Absolutely.
- [20:34]
Annami Tonkin
And it's one of the things I've, you know, many. Well, I've been asked plenty of times in the history of, like, being on podcasts and things like that, you know, what piece of advice would you give? And it's always been take, like, approach business with as much creativity as you do your art because there's so much out there. For a single person business. Right. Like, it's one thing if you're running a giant corporation, it's like driving a cruise ship, I imagine. But we're out there on these like really nimble little sailboats.
- [21:10]
Leah O'Connell
Yeah. You can pivot so much.
- [21:12]
Annami Tonkin
You can do all kinds of stuff. And I think that feeling like, well, I just have to stay the course all the time. It rarely works that way, if ever.
- [21:22]
Leah O'Connell
So I'm curious. That actually leads me to my next question. How, when it does come to like the art piece and how you photograph. Obviously business is one thing and like the approach to marketing, but like, how do you balance a sense of consistency and brand voice tone, like the way you shoot all of that with the changing trends and the changing market and that kind of thing?
- [21:45]
Annami Tonkin
Oh, that's a good question. Because there is definitely a fine line to walk. Right. We've all seen photographers and the easiest example, I think is somebody who all of a sudden really dramatically changes their editing style.
- [22:00]
Leah O'Connell
It's very visually clear, like, oh, it's a different person. Right.
- [22:04]
Annami Tonkin
Where you scroll back through their Instagram feed and it goes from like, you know, recently they've been showing all dark and moody and then like on April 26th, they switched to. So whatever that kind of dramatic difference can be, it's not to say that you can't do that, but when you make a major change. Actually another really easy example to point to is somebody who suddenly, often because they need to realizes, like, I have to double or triple my prices. And there's this clear, you know, bcad kind of demarcation of the before and the after. And I think that the important thing when you're making a radical change like that is just to be aware that big changes leave a space of time where you have to then find your new people and whatever. It's not that it's not possible. If you're like, I really am sick of this light and airy editing style, I'm going a totally different direction, ripping.
- [23:06]
Leah O'Connell
The band aid off and we're just.
- [23:07]
Annami Tonkin
Ripping the bandaid off. In some ways that's easier, but it definitely, you have to be prepared for it. So that's the one thing. If that's not what you're looking for, if you're making some sort of change and it's sort of an internal change, then you need to think big picture about how do I position this, how do I talk about it in a way that is rather than off putting or scary to my clients, it sort of shows them how this path is going to benefit them. And this is new and fun and different. And I think that messaging is really at the heart of so much of that. And it's true as well. With things like big price increases or whatever. It's just with big jumps, you have to be okay with the fact that there are some people that you're going to lose in that because that's not their budget, that's not their style, whatever the case may be. And that's okay. You'll find culling those people will make space for new people that are 100% team dark and moody. But that's where the risk that we were talking about at the beginning comes into play. And you have to put that risk into context where it's like, I'm not risking the end of the world. I'm risking like six months of maybe needing to go get a job, you know, editing for other photographers or doing.
- [24:25]
Leah O'Connell
The implementing and somehow. Yeah, yeah.
- [24:28]
Annami Tonkin
Working as a barista somewhere. Like, there are, you know, you can fill in the gaps. You just have to be. You have to anticipate.
- [24:37]
Leah O'Connell
Yeah, I'm. That is such a candid answer, too. And I'm so grateful that you pointed that out with such candor. This idea of like, well, sometimes you need to fill in the gaps. And because I think in the entrepreneurship world, we often hear like, and maybe that's even how it sounded at the beginning of our conversation, like, you know, the stamina, the push through, like, don't give up. And all of that is true. And sometimes money is a real thing. And if you're feeling like you need to fill in the gaps, always money is a real thing. But always the ebb and flow of business is real. And sometimes you have to fill in the money gaps. And that can come from other things outside of photography, because entrepreneurship takes time. It just is sometimes is a slow build. And you cannot force clients hiring you. So it's like, again with that nimbleness that's available to us as solopreneurs, like, there are options available. And I just, I appreciate even someone, like, from your vantage point saying, like, this is part of it. It's okay. It's okay.
- [25:43]
Annami Tonkin
Yeah. And it has been a very, very real part of it for me and in some ways learning that painful lesson. So for anybody who doesn't hasn't heard my story, I got divorced kind of seven years into my business, and, like, it totally threw the money piece of everything into question. And that was the closest I ever came to shutting my business down. But it was and it was my attempt at that point to. To pivot, whatever, and just sort of acknowledge that, okay, if this doesn't work, here's my timeline. If I don't make this amount of money by this date, I have to.
- [26:19]
Podcast Host / Narrator
Go get another job.
- [26:20]
Annami Tonkin
I, um. And then a couple years later, I had surgery that took me out of work for four years. And I was like, oh, right, this could always happen. Even if I do have, you know, a nice, long, big Rolodex of happy clients. I am the bottleneck in this business. So how can I stabilize? And asking those questions and getting comfortable, as comfortable as one can get with the answers to those questions is a lot of it's just necessary over time. And so I think that for anyone who's like, I can't take a risk because I. Or I have to close my business because it's not. What's. What I'm doing right now isn't working, I bring it back to that. Like, it's not all or nothing. You can say, I'm going to try something different. And here are the markers where if I'm not making, let's say, $5,000 a month, I need to go get some sort of supplemental income. And there's no harm or shame in that. In fact, it's just another tool in your toolkit that builds your resilience. Like, that means that your business can live to see another day, that this dream of yours can. You can continue chipping away at it to find the path that works for you. Because no one's path is exactly the same. No one's needs are exactly the same. It's hard to carve it out, but it's so worthwhile in the end, and.
- [27:48]
Leah O'Connell
It'S not so black and white. And I feel like I come back to that in so many conversations of, like, it's not this way or that way or the right way or the wrong way, or it has to be this or you're not going to make money, or it has to be this or you are not successful. And, like, there is so much gray area in that. And I just appreciate every example of that kind of empowerment for entrepreneurship of, like, yeah, living to see another day can mean lots of things with your business. If it means that you get to keep shooting in whatever capacity that is, if that's the goal, then great.
- [28:27]
Podcast Host / Narrator
Yeah.
- [28:27]
Annami Tonkin
And I think the important thing, if you're at that crossroads, is to sit down and think, what is it about this business or the idea of this business that I love? And that's the only thing that needs to stay. Like, everything else can change. And when you, when you say, I love seeing these examples, it's like I can point to an example of just about anything.
- [28:53]
Leah O'Connell
Yeah.
- [28:53]
Annami Tonkin
In the photography world, where somebody's making it work, you know, low prices and they're making a killing or super high niche, you know, boutique, whatever. Plenty of examples of that. But like, every editing style, every service style, every kind of.
- [29:11]
Leah O'Connell
I feel like I, I remember that, like having that thought when I was doing in person sales. And I think you were, you've been, you have a similar story. I was like doing in person sales and then I was like, this isn't working for my life and my family for me anymore. I don't like it anymore. But like, again, it's not black and white. It's not, I do IPS or nothing at all. I was like, okay, so how can we make what's the most important thing? And like working with families, photographing in a certain way and like, all the packaging around it is flexible.
- [29:48]
Annami Tonkin
Totally.
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Leah O'Connell
Yeah.
- [29:49]
Annami Tonkin
And what's amazing is that when you find the thing that feels just right for you, it attracts people who are your people. Like, they can see that somehow magically from the outside.
- [30:02]
Leah O'Connell
Yeah. So logistically too, like, you know, this line of work is very seasonal. There's a lot of unpredictability, which we've been talking about. So from implementing systems to simplify marketing, client communications, obviously, simple sales system which people all over are using to build their client workflows. These are like concepts that you have built in to maintain some, some level of predictability. Right. And I think that there's this like, new concept to the photography world of a membership that is seemingly kind of revolutionary. But I mean, like, we've seen baby plans for years in the family photography world, but a membership plan is not something that a lot of people are doing. So can you just speak to, like, why that is so attractive in today's world of marketing?
- [31:01]
Annami Tonkin
Yeah. So, well, this was my sort of solution and big swing after my, this ankle surgery took me out of work for a while. I was like, I need a way to stabilize my income. And I had this, you know, spark of inspiration. I have all these memberships that I pay for, many of which I was canceling at that time because. Because my income had cut off. And I was like, wait a minute, I have all these clients who, they want family photos every year. They have the means for that. But like, they forget to book or they get busy or like some big expense comes Up. And so, you know, they get into a fight with their husband about we, you said we could do a family session this year and now you're saying no. And he's like, well, it's a big expense. Sorry, I'm being totally, I'm profiling, but that's often the way it is. And I was like, what if I were to break it up and make it a membership where they're just kind of paying into it over time and then they get sessions every year or every period of time, whatever. And I was like, oh great, sign me up for a class on how to learn how to make a membership. And then I couldn't find it. And I was like, what is wrong?
- [32:15]
Leah O'Connell
This exists for us.
- [32:16]
Annami Tonkin
Yeah, there must be a fatal flaw in this thought process. And there wasn't. I launched a membership less than a year later, which turned out to be the year leading up to Covid. And so when Covid hit, I had income every month even though I wasn't working. And, and I have since gone on to shout it from the rooftops. Like a portrait membership is such a great stabilizer in your business. Even if, you know, let's say that you're a wedding photographer primarily, so you don't have like, obviously a wedding client isn't going to be in a membership, but, but maybe you have a follow up offer for anniversary sessions or maybe, you know, a lot of your wedding clients go on to become family clients and you're not, you don't bill yourself as a family photographer. But like, you take that work and it, you know, it fits in nicely with the rest of your schedule. If you start a membership and you market that correctly and all that sort of stuff that brings people into your world who then just have a really easy way to kind of check the photography box in their, in their lives without having to like find a photographer, book a photographer, all this other stuff every every year or every couple years, you're their go to person. And when you lock that in, not only does it stabilize their experience and sort of just make it easy for your clients, which is good customer service, but you essentially give yourself a paycheck that you can rely on, plan around all that sort of thing, which is, it's like the golden ticket in this industry.
- [33:52]
Leah O'Connell
I even know like a lot of places in the country that, you know, the students that I'll work with who are like, I don't shoot ever from November through April because it's so cold where I live or, and just to like spread that out like is really helpful. I kind of liken the concept to the benefits of like an email list in some senses where it's like the idea is trust, visibility, staying top of mind.
- [34:20]
Annami Tonkin
Yeah.
- [34:20]
Leah O'Connell
And that is gone in social media world. Like this whole like it used to be like Instagram is your cherry on top. Like helps you stay top of mind. And like with engagement rates at what they are, like, I just don't really believe that that is true anymore. For a lot of people.
- [34:38]
Annami Tonkin
It's a crapshoot.
- [34:39]
Leah O'Connell
Yeah. So I mean email lists, memberships, things like that that are like I have opted and I have said I wanted it and now you are the only one at the top of the list, right? Yeah.
- [34:54]
Annami Tonkin
Yeah. And it's the more of those kind of stabilizing forces you can build into your business, the, the less susceptible to outside influence you are things that you can't control.
- [35:10]
Leah O'Connell
Yeah. That whole like loyalty element, like the difference with the membership then is also like they've actually put their money on the table for it and said like they're committed, they're not like when somebody else has a really cute looking mini session pop up or an event that they're like already committed to you. So it's like they don't have eyes for anyone else.
- [35:30]
Annami Tonkin
That's right. Yeah. We're already going steady. I, I was talking about this recently and I was saying there's that. Massage Envy is a chain of like massage places where, but it's all membership based where you pay X dollars a month and then you can get one or two or three massages a month or whatever the case is. I'm not a, I don't belong to that. I just know about it. But, but the idea is if you belong to that, you're already paying for that and some other massage, you know, like I don't even know the words around this stuff.
- [36:07]
Leah O'Connell
Parlor. Obviously I'm not a massage person either.
- [36:10]
Annami Tonkin
I feel like parlor has a whole different feel to it.
- [36:13]
Leah O'Connell
But is this a sign? Do we need to take better care of ourselves?
- [36:18]
Annami Tonkin
But if like another sign Spa, let's say, there you go, that's run some sort of special. And they're like, you know, massages 50% off. Even if that's a better price than what you're paying for your membership, you're like, yeah, but I already, that box is checked. I'm not on the market. It effectively takes your clients off the market and just makes them exclusively yours. Now obviously you need to continue to serve them and like treat them really well. And I always, in the course that I teach on memberships, that's one of the core principles is like, these are your number one clients. Like, you focus on them before you do anything else. You find all the different ways to kind of make them want to stay.
- [37:04]
Podcast Host / Narrator
Right.
- [37:04]
Annami Tonkin
Create that sticky factor to your membership like a marriage.
- [37:08]
Leah O'Connell
You can't put a ring on it and then just be like, got em. Never go on a date again.
- [37:14]
Annami Tonkin
Treat you like garbage. Yeah, exactly, exactly. So, see, you're joining me on the metaphor train here.
- [37:20]
Leah O'Connell
I know we can't get out of it today. It's just coming too easily. Yeah. Okay, well, so we're going to wrap it up because I feel like we could just talk about this world forever. But I asked this to all my guests at the end of interviews and I just want to know what are you doing these days to keep nurturing your photo fuel to grow and learn and just make yourself a better person, human, business owner, artist, whatever that might be.
- [37:49]
Annami Tonkin
Yeah, it's a. It's a complicated answer these days. It is kind of a bleak. The world feels pretty bleak these days. And I personally feel like photography is the. Is my go to for when I am feeling overwhelmed by the external world. It is a place that I can reliably go to find beauty in the stuff that I photograph. Because I, you know, I've always done family photography. I've always photographed my own kids. And it's like the. I know that we can't stay inside our bubble all the time, but right now I feel like retreating to my bubble is one of the things that's keeping me grounded both mentally and artistically.
- [38:37]
Leah O'Connell
Yeah, that's such a beautiful reminder. I mean, like, we do get wrapped up in the business side of it sometimes too. But it's funny how like fueling it can be to just do it for the joy. Like the things that we promote to our clients is like the reasons why they would get family sessions. Like, those are the same reasons why we should pick up a camera for ourselves.
- [38:59]
Annami Tonkin
Yeah, yeah. You. I mean, we're all guilty probably of the. The cobbler's kids have no shoes, but. And I certainly have been over time, but I feel like the, the return to that or the ability to return to that is really. It gives me a lot of peace.
- [39:14]
Leah O'Connell
Yeah, I totally agree. Thank you so much. Thank you for just going deep with your wisdom and this conversation today. I hope that it is encouraging to people in the family photography world just how much importance it really does still have. And we'll obviously link like all of your course materials, how you can get in touch with anime. Do you want to share like how people can get in touch with you just out loud?
- [39:39]
Annami Tonkin
Yeah. Yeah. So everything is is based around this can't be that hard. So it's this can't be that hard.com Instagram is this can't be that hard. And if you're interested in finding out more about like how I structure or recommend that you structure memberships, my course is called Revenue on Repeat. You can just go up to the little Learn menu item and select Revenue on Repeat from there on the website.
- [40:06]
Leah O'Connell
Thanks for listening to this episode all the way through. I hope it helped you fuel up for your art and your business. If you haven't already, please make sure you're subscribed to the podcast so new episodes will populate on your app without you having to remember or go search for them each week. You can also leave a rating or review, which helps potential listeners get an idea about what they're in for and if the show is going to be helpful or applicable for them. Also, I really like reading them, so it's a nice way to say thanks or share feedback if you liked a particular episode. Don't forget to check out all the free resources I have@leahoconnell.com learn and we can get further connected that way as we dig into this world of family photography together. I'll be back next week, but till then you're doing great.
- [40:50]
Podcast Host / Narrator
Bye. Leah is such a kind, grounded voice in our industry, and I hope this conversation gave you a little space to breathe after the busy season and reminded you that building a business is supposed to be a process. If you're in a season of rethinking how you want your business to run, maybe you're craving more stability or you're ready to evolve your offers. You can always find free tools and resources to help@thiscan't bethard.com and if you want to dig deeper into the membership model that we touched on, you can learn all about it inside Revenue on Repeat. That's where I teach the system that I built to bring recurring revenue and stability into my own photography business. You'll find that under Learn on the website. Thanks so much for spending time with.
- [41:38]
Annami Tonkin
Me this week, friends.
- [41:39]
Podcast Host / Narrator
I will see you next week. That's it for this week's episode of this Can't Be that Hard. I'll be back same time, same place next week.
- [41:47]
Annami Tonkin
If you like the show, be sure.
- [41:49]
Podcast Host / Narrator
To check out thiscan'tbethard.com to explore all the resources we have for photographers.
- [41:54]
Annami Tonkin
And of course it will mean the.
- [41:55]
Podcast Host / Narrator
World to me if you would leave a review of the show on itunes or Spotify. As always, thanks so much for joining me. I hope you have a fantastic week.