← This Can't Be That Hard
This Can't Be That Hard
346 - A Steadier Way to Grow Your Photography Business with Kimberly Espinel
00:32:04
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- [00:00]
A
Hey friends. In an effort to give myself and my team a little time away from the podcast here at the end of the year, I've asked a few of my podcast host friends to let me share conversations that I had with them on their podcast this year. Today I'm sharing a conversation that I had with Kimberly Espinel on her podcast Eat Capture Share. Kimberly works with food photographers and creatives, but this chat really applies to anyone who's ever felt like they're stuck on the hamster wheel of marketing and and feast or famine income. We talk a little bit about how I built recurring revenue in my own business using a portrait membership and how that started from a not so fun ankle injury, then ended up becoming one of the best things I've ever done. For stability and peace of mind, we also dig into how you can use the same approach, whether you photograph families, brands, or restaurants, to create a business that doesn't rely on constantly finding new clients. I wanted to share this one now in particular because January is such a great time to start or reinvigorate your membership program. It's when so many photographers are setting goals, they're updating systems, and they're looking for ways to make the year ahead feel a little more steady. So my hope is that this conversation gets your wheels turning about how recurring revenue could fit into your business. Let's dive in. Welcome to this Can't Be that Hard. My name is Annemie Tonkin and I help photographers run profitable, sustainable businesses that they love. Each week on the podcast I cover simple, actionable strategies and systems that photographers at every level of experience can use to earn more money in a more sustainable way. Running a photography business doesn't have to be that hard. You can do it and I can show you how. Foreign.
- [01:56]
B
Let'S start by talking business with Annemy Tolkien. I mean, I am super excited to chat with you today because I think there's bits and pieces of information that you're going to share that I need to learn. So yeah, I'm looking forward to our chat, but first and foremost, would you like to introduce yourself? Sure.
- [02:16]
A
I'm super excited to be here. My name is Annemie Tonkin. I am actually a family photographer in Chapel Hill, North Carolina in the US and I have been doing this for, you know, 15 plus years. I've been teaching other photographers under sort of the umbrella of my business called this Can't Be that Hard for the last five years. And and basically I am all about systems and strategies that make business easier for artists. I feel like, when I look back over my career over 15 years in, you know, I. There are a lot of really talented people out there. I think that my photos are good, are great, But I think that the thing that has really kept me going has been building a business that is sustainable, that I don't constantly feel like I am, you know, doing all the work to turn all the wheels, that I've, you know, sort of set myself up for success in that way. And that is really kind of the cornerstone of everything that I teach in that way, because I feel very passionately about making sure that as many artists are able to succeed out there in the world as possible.
- [03:30]
B
I love that I always say that I don't actually think it's the most talented food photographers who are the most successful. It's the people who are best at marketing who are the most successful. And of course, you know, talent is important and it helps, but it's. It's really the people who get the business side of things, which is, again, why I'm so excited to chat with you today. Now, there's one thing that you hinted at, you know, you said sustainable, that I kind of want to pull out, as it were. And you know what I feel that a lot of photographers do, including people who are in my audience who are listening in here, is that they kind of feel that they're a little bit on their hamster wheel of, you know, like posting something in Instagram or sending a newsletter or whatever, writing a blog posted, trial or cold pitching, warm pitching, whatever it is to try and get new clients. And, you know that constant marketing sometimes can feel really draining. And so I know that you advocate for recurring revenue models for photographers, and I'd love for you to speak to that a little bit more and kind of allow us to understand another way, an alternative way to that hamster wheel feeling.
- [04:54]
A
Well, to tell the story, I always like to give the short backstory on this in my own business. So I had been in business for eight years, nine years. This was 2018. I was a single parent. It was the end of my busy season. So fall is generally my really busy season. And I had been having this, like, chronic ankle pain. Anyway, I went and saw a doctor, and they referred me to a surgeon. They were like, you need to have this minor surgery to clean up some, like, old cartilage damage. And, you know, you can schedule it whenever it's convenient, and you're going to be off your feet for a couple of weeks, and then you'll be good to go. So I scheduled it in December when my sessions were going to be done, and I was, you know, going to have a little bit of free time. Maybe my parents could come into town and help me for those couple of weeks. And when I woke up from the surgery, they were like, well, good news, bad news. The good news is we were able to really fix your ankle. The bad news is the damage was a lot worse than we thought it was going in, so we had to do a lot more. And you're going to be off your feet for four months. And I was, you know, happy to hear that the surgery had gone well, but I was terrified to think about how I was going to manage four months. Unable to walk, which means in my business, unable to work. And as we all know, in this, you know, when you're running your own business, no work equals no income. So it was a super stressful four months for me. I was just, you know, crutching around, whatever, trying to figure out how I could continue. Even though I had a very successful business that was, you know, booked and pricing was good and all that sort of stuff, this really drove home the thing that I think all of us know, which is that when you rely on your body or, you know, the pandemic sort of underlined this as well. Like, there are outside forces that affect our ability to make money that we don't have control over. And so it's hard to, you know, you hope for the best. But then this really kicked me into gear, planning for the worst. So over the course of those four months, I was like, if I can't stabilize my income or make this more predictable, I really should consider going back to working for somebody else where I have a paycheck that I can rely on, that my kids can rely on. And at some point during that period, I received a package in the mail for, like, H vac filters, air conditioning filters. And I. You know, that's not a. It's not a sexy thing, but. But I. It, like, sparked this idea for me. And I was thinking, you know, I have clients, and in my case, it's family clients. But certainly this applies to restaurants and, you know, places. Everybody's looking for content these days. Business, you know, businesses and the families that I work with are always coming to me, like, every couple years, every few years. And every time they say, oh, we meant to call you last year, or, oh, you know, I. We totally missed little Jimmy's two front teeth being missing, or, you know, whatever the case may be, and people are busy and hiring a Photographer again and again is one of those things that, like, people mean to do it, but it takes time, it takes effort, it gets put to the bottom of the list. Also, you know, if you're doing it all at once, it's a big investment and so you can drag your feet, you can keep pushing it to the back burner because some other expense has come up. So anyway, I was thinking about that and I was thinking, how can I solve that problem for my clients while simultaneously solving my income roller coaster problem? The solution that, you know, this box arriving in the mail really put in my head was, why not offer people the opportunity to join a portrait membership? And I spent some time sort of working out what that would look like, thinking about how I would price it, how I would manage it. And there are a lot of logistics when it comes to, you know, running a membership. But ultimately I launched that year in August. So that was 2019 at this point, almost a year after my surgery. And I brought, I can't remember the exact number, 34 families into the membership.
- [09:19]
B
Wow.
- [09:20]
A
And they were each paying. I, you know, I started it out kind of at a. I offered people three different tiered options that included different things. And so I ended up with around $4,000 a month in recurring revenue that I had.
- [09:34]
B
Amaz. That's amazing.
- [09:36]
A
It was amazing. I was thrilled with the response. I was, you know, working through some of the kinks, whatever. But all of this really kind of hit me sideways when less than a year later, In March of 2020, everything shut down. And that membership, if I hadn't started it, that definitely would have been the nail in the coffin of my business. Like, I definitely would have had to go and find some other way to work because where I am, I wasn't. Again, I was sidelined for a couple of months. And because I had all these members whose not only were their payments coming in, but they had already, you know, paid into this membership, whatever. So as soon as we were able. Whereas a lot of my colleagues, you know, in the photography industry felt like people were shying away from hiring photographers because there was a lot of uncertainty about the economy and everything else, my members were like, great, when do we, you know, when can we get together.
- [10:30]
B
Yeah.
- [10:30]
A
To do our outdoor photo session. So it really was a. A business saver for me. And since then, I have not only continued running my own membership, but I've taught a lot of other photographers how to set up and market and, you know, kind of manage the logistics of a membership. And it has been so Amazing to watch so many people whose income prior to that and whose marketing efforts prior to that were kind of all over the place and get to a point where a lot of their income was guaranteed, which reduces that marketing pressure that you were talking about in the beginning. That hamster wheel that we find ourselves on where it's like every month we wake up and we're like, how am I going to pay my bills this month?
- [11:13]
B
I love that because I can. You know, most of the people who live it, who live. Who listen to this podcast are, you know, food photographers within the food, restaurant, beverage space. And I could also see that membership model working really well with those clients.
- [11:30]
A
Absolutely.
- [11:31]
B
You know, especially restaurants that they change their menu regularly and whatnot. So you could have, you know, as you said, something like two photo shoots a year or, you know, something like that. So I love, I love that idea. I guess for me, the next question would be, how do you know if a membership model is for you? That would be question one, and question two is, do you have any tips to, like, how did you make the offer attractive to your customers? Like what? You know, like, how do you avoid people saying, oh, no, I'll just see how it goes, or, you know, like, how do you get. How do you stop them from. From, you know, not going for it?
- [12:15]
A
So to say, yeah, yeah, well. So to answer your first question in terms of whether a membership is right for you and your business, I do recommend that you get to a point in your own business where you feel comfortable enough with not only your ability to deliver the photos that you're promising, but also, you know, I think it's good to have some basic systems in place and things like that, because adding a membership does add a layer of. In many ways, it makes your business easier, but in some ways it, you know, it's good to have a good CRM in place or, you know, those kinds of systems. So basic systems, I don't think it's anything that you need to feel like you're running some sort of, you know, corporation. But the main thing that is the divider between photographers for whom this business works and doesn't work is really just whether your clients could or should want photos on a regular basis. So it's not really the best model for wedding photographers.
- [13:15]
B
You could.
- [13:16]
A
You could invite people in for anniversary photos and things like that, but it's not, you know, that's kind of an obvious one. That is a one and done situation. But the two fields that have been most popular, at least among my students, have definitely been families and then small business photographers of any kind. So food absolutely fits into that umbrella.
- [13:37]
B
I'm also thinking like food brands, you know, because they launch new products or they just need fresh content for their social or whatever the case may be. So that is great. And then my second question was, how do you make it attractive? Like has there been something. Yeah, exactly. Like how do you make it a no brainer offer? Because it is a no brainer offer if you think of it.
- [14:02]
A
So I find that the two main selling points for this are ease for your client. So you, you know, pitch it to them as you know, you want this, you know you need this in the case of brands and businesses and you know, you sort of remind them of what a pain it is to sort of schedule on an ad hoc basis where you have to realize, oh, we need photos, we need to find a photographer, we need to schedule this, we need to do this. It's just this constant item on their to do list that somebody is managing. Right. So when you say to them, not only are we going to get you on the schedule, but I'm going to, I'm a reach out to you and say, hey, you're six months has come and gone. It's time to, time to book again. Here's, here are my available dates. You don't really have to go through the whole process again and again. You're signed up once and then you're in it for as long as you're in the membership. The second selling point, and this is, you know, you can do this different ways. The way that I teach it is that you sort of figure out what your signature offer is, what you typically charge for your signature offer. And then once you've worked with someone once, and I do feel, feel very strongly about this particular part of starting a membership. This is not an offer for new clients because, well, there are several reasons. You want to make sure that this is somebody you want to work with over and over again. You want to make sure it's someone who pays, you know, their credit card doesn't get declined every time it you try and run it, all that kind of thing. But also you want to work with them the first time in order for them to feel comfortable with you. You know, when you're pitching somebody for the very first time, they're going out on a much bigger limb. Once you've worked with them, once you've shown them that you show up, that you deliver great photos, that you're, you know, a professional who knows what they're doing, they are so much more likely to say yes. Especially when it comes to a more, you know, contractual, like we're going to work together for a while kind of a thing. So when you have established what your price is for the normal service that you provide, and then as long as you've got good margins built into your base pricing, you can not only offer monthly installments like automated credit card payments that just kind of become a much smaller line item on their budget, but also you can take a little bit off the top of the total investment. So that, that really does become a no brainer offer. Not only is it easier, but it's also easier to manage from a budgetary perspective.
- [16:43]
B
Yeah.
- [16:43]
A
And you know, maybe there's a little bit of cost savings in there.
- [16:46]
B
Yeah, I love that. I think we all want to save something, you know, so that makes complete sense. I love it so much. I was wondering, you've mentioned that you have, you know, you teach this membership model to photographers and so I would be curious to know, are there any launching mistakes that you see people making? Anything that some somebody who's tuning in now is like, oh, I love the sound of this. This something I could, you know, do. This would fit my needs and where I'm at in my business, like, are there any mistakes that they need to be wary of when setting this up, when thinking about launching something like this? Sure.
- [17:26]
A
So I think the big one, as I already said, is just making sure that you are picking and choosing who it is that you're making this offer to. And then when you do, I find that the key to success is really personalizing the offer and giving people a lot of Runway on education. Because even though everyone is used to memberships out in the world, I mean we all subscribe to so many different things. A portrait membership or a photography membership. This kind of model is not all that common out there. In fact, when I came up with this idea based on, you know, the H Vac delivery that I received, the first thing that I thought was great, I need to go find somebody to teach me how to set this. And I went looking for anyone in the photography industry who was running a membership like the one that I was thinking of putting together and couldn't find it. And that was a big red flag for me. I was, you know, it was like, what am I not thinking of? Why isn't anybody doing this anyway? Now there are people doing it because in, in many cases because I taught them to do it. But, and, and because I have talked about it A lot, but. But it is. It's not all that common still, which I think is great. I actually have. Even though I don't offer this to new clients, I have. I. I mention the membership on my website so anybody can see it. And I frequently get people when they inquire with me, asking about the membership and I say, oh, you know, that it's not really a thing. That is a conversation for right now. That's something that once we've worked together and you see whether I'm a good fit and all this other stuff, you know, then maybe that's a. That's going to be the right next step. It's like there's this bit of FOMO or something. Yeah. People get where they're like, well, I want to be part of this mentorship. I want to make it easy to get my family photographed every year.
- [19:21]
B
Yeah.
- [19:22]
A
So I think it can be a really great marketing point for new clients. But when you're doing that launch, you're going to want to pick and choose who you're launching to make all of your terms clear, answer lots of questions, give people lots of Runway. And then I teach launching a couple of different ways. You can either do sort of a big formal launch where all at once, the way that I did, you, you know, invite a whole bunch of new members and try and kick things off that way. But there's also, I think there are a lot of photographers who are hesitant to sort of jump in the deep end that way, or, you know, they. They want to get started right away, and maybe now is not the perfect time to do a big launch. So I also teach a way to just invite members in one at a time as you work with people. And the nice thing about that is just that you are kind of getting them on the heels of what hopefully is a good experience of working with you. And then right as they're sort of at that, like, whoa, that was great. I'm so glad we hired them. You come to them and say, hey, this was wonderful. I loved working with you. I'd love to. I'd love to make this a regular thing. Here. Here's how that works.
- [20:32]
B
Now, I like to actually bring it full circle, as it were, because we started this discussion with you talking about what it means to run a sustainable business. And, of course, having a membership model is but one way of achieving that. So I was wondering if you have any other thoughts or ideas to share on how anybody who's tuning in, who's setting up their photography business, or who's running it and feeling run down by it can create a sustainable business.
- [21:05]
A
Man, how many hours do we have?
- [21:08]
Sustainability really is. I, I feel like it's a word I say a lot, but it's because I really mean it. The longer that you are in business, the more that becomes a requirement rather than a luxury. Because if you are constantly doing all the things you're, it just, it's a recipe for burnout and it's a recipe for failure. Because we are imperfect. We, you know, are not machines. And I think that the more things that you can sort of build these fail safes in place for the better customer service that you give. So it's, it helps everyone in the equation. But as far as, you know, practical advice for that. I mentioned CRMs before having.
- [21:51]
B
Can you explain what that is in case there's anybody tuning in who's not 100% familiar with it?
- [21:56]
A
So that acronym stands for Client Relationship Manager and it's called. There are a few different names for those. But basically what I'm talking about is software that creates different workflows, allows you to store a lot of your business information in all in one place and allows you to create these workflows where you say, you know, I do this first, I do this next. I send this email on, you know, four days before the session, whatever, whatever your process is. And then it allows you to sort of create templates for most of those steps, automate some of those steps and at minimum, if you are anti automation, it will, you know, you wake up in the morning and look at your CRM and it will tell you, here are the things that you need to do today. You need to send this contract, you need to follow up with this person about this invoice, whatever the case may be. Holding all those things in your head is the perfect definition unsustainable. So I feel like a CRM is a really good first step if you are dipping your toe in the, in the sustainability waters. But, but the other thing is really just noticing the systems that you have and starting to document those. And I think a lot of people hear the word systems and they feel like, oh, that sounds. And a system really is just a series of steps that leads to a specific outcome. And we all have them, whether we call them systems or not. So, so if something is working well in your business, it. The first step is really just to think through like, oh, you know, my clients almost always fill out my questionnaire. How am I getting them to do that? You know, I'm sending this Email and this reminder, at this sort of cadence, when you start to document those things, you start to notice patterns. And it's not just the things that are working well. You can say, this isn't working well. What am I doing or not doing? Where are the holes in this system? And then it allows you, once you sort of put it into words, it allows you to start filling, filling the gaps and figuring out where things are falling apart.
- [23:59]
B
I love that. And I think, you know, what you said at the very start of, of answering this question really resonated. I'm not quite as long into this journey as you, 11 years, but I do feel that maybe also I'm just getting older. I don't know. But I think, of course, I want to make lots of money and, you know, be super successful. But in a way, the years where I've made the most money also have been the toughest on me, you know, physically and emotionally. And I'm like, actually, I don't mind earning a little less and just not being so run down because I think running your own business. And then I think there's also that added dimension for us as photographers. Our job is also really physical. Like, you're on your feet, you're, you know, carrying heavy gear, you're bending, like, it's just so much. And so the idea that these systems can, you know, help and support you to not feel run down all the time, I love that. And I, I also think, I mean, some of the things that you described, because I don't have a CRM actually, but I do have, you know, have a V and, you know, administrators and things like that, because I'm, you know, obviously a couple of years into my business now, but I think for anybody tuning in who's really very much still at the start, those CRMs can almost kind of like replace, you know, an administrator or something. Just, you know, just take that off, off your shoulders without you then needing to pay, you know, somebody to do it for you, if that makes sense.
- [25:27]
A
Right. It is the. The cheapest assistant you will ever hire.
- [25:31]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that. I love that so much. Anony. If there's anybody who is tuning in is like, I find this really helpful. I want to, you know, find out more about the membership. Where can they find you and, you know, what are the best places to connect with you? Sure.
- [25:49]
A
As I mentioned, everything in my teaching world is under this Can't Be that Hard. So I have a podcast called this can't be that Hard. The website is this can't be that hard. Social media, all the things. And if you are specifically interested in learning more about what I teach in terms of memberships, if you go to my website, there's like a learn, you know, item in the menu with a dropdown. And the course that I teach is called Revenue on Repeat. So that is where you can find more information there.
- [26:17]
B
Amazing. Adami. We have a tradition here on the podcast that I always end it with three questions I'm going to ask those of you I'd love to know. What is your most favorite thing to eat? What is your most favorite thing to capture with your camera? And what is your most favorite thing to share?
- [26:36]
A
Ah, eat all the things. I am. I am definitely an omnivore. We were just talking at my house the other day. If we had to narrow it down to one particular sort of genre of food, not one food, but one genre of food, I think I would probably end up with Mexican for the rest of my life, I don't think. And documenting. I do love photographing people and probably specifically my kids, although they're old enough now that they don't want that all the time.
- [27:07]
B
How old are they, if I may.
- [27:08]
A
As they are 19 and 15.
- [27:10]
B
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I thought they're just too cool to pose right now.
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Exactly, exactly.
- [27:16]
A
But I mean, I've got my business brain on right now. So I. One of the things that I have said from the very beginning, because it was good advice that I got, but it was that if you want to be in business for a long time, you have to pay as much attention to your business as you do to the art. And that kind of brings us full circle from the beginning of our conversation. It is something that I really believe in. The nice thing, and I think you and I share this, is that I have come to find when I first was told that I was like, ah, that sounds terrible. I don't want to learn about business. But as I've sort of leaned into that, I have found that business is a space in which you can be just as creative as you are with your art. And when you are creative, like coming up with a portrait membership idea, it ends up, you know, it tends to pay off big time. So I encourage people to be as creative as they can with their businesses.
- [28:12]
B
I love that anime. Thank you so so much for, for your time and it was lovely to chat with you.
- [28:18]
A
Likewise. Thanks so much for having me on. I hope you have a great day.
- [28:22]
B
As always. Everything and anything mentioned in today's podcast episode can be found in the Show Notes, including links of course to Anime Social. I know she would love to hear from you. If you've listened to today's podcast episode and found it helpful, you can send her dm, her Instagram will be on there, links to her program, programs, everything. You can also find links of course to our sponsor in the Show Notes and the Fearless Focus Mastermind and Mentoring program. And the program starts in October 2025, so if that fits your timeline, make sure you head to the show notes. And if October 2025 has come and gone by the time you hear this episode, you can still head to the Show Notes. Join the waiting list for our next round of Fearless Focus Mastermind and Mentoring programs that are still to come. So yeah, either way, be sure to check out the link if business mentoring is something that you're eager to find out more about. Right, I think that's it for today. We will be back same time, same place in about two weeks time with another live mentoring call. So. So yeah, I look forward to connecting with you then. Before I leave you, I wanted to say thank you so so much for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed the podcast. I also wanted to let you know that this podcast was brought to you by my Eat Capture Share newsletter community and I'd love for you to join. I will pop the details on how you can join my creative community in the show notes, so do go and check it out. Also, if you enjoy the podcast, it means so much if you can rate, review and subscribe. All those things will help the podcast to grow and to reach the right audience. And yeah, you'd kind of make my day. All right, see you soon. Take care. Bye.
- [30:42]
A
Isn't Kimberly such a thoughtful interviewer? I honestly love chatting with her and I think that these kinds of cross discipline chats are where so many great ideas start. If a membership in your business feels like the great idea that you are ready to jump on, there is definitely no better time than the beginning of the year. January is the perfect moment to set things up so that the rest of your year runs more smoothly and it's a great time to start building systems for that more predictable sustainable income. If you're interested in the course, you can learn all the details@thiscantbethard.com Revenue if you're not quite there, there are tons of free tools and resources here on the podcast and@thiscantbethard.com everything. Thanks for listening friends. Here's to a steady sustainable year ahead. I'll see you next week. That's it for this week's episode of this Can't Be that Hard. I'll be back same time, same place next week. If you like the show, be sure to check out thiscan'tbethard.com to explore all the resources we have for photographers. And of course, it would mean the world to me if you would leave a review of the show on itunes or Spotify. As always, thanks so much for joining me. I hope you have a fantastic week.