Annemie Tonkin (2:48)

Sure, yeah. So I. The brief, broad brushstrokes, if I can say that five times fast, is I started my business in 2010. I knew nothing about running a business. I was like coming from a healthcare background and was basically like, if I'm going to make this work, somebody else needs to tell me how to make it work. I can make photos, but somebody else needs to tell me how to run a business. So I took a handful of classes, was following some educators at that time and basically everyone was saying in order to make any money as a photographer prefer, you need to do in person sales. And I was like, oh, that felt really sort of counter to who I was and, and what I wanted to be doing. But I was like, whatever. If I, what I. My end goal. The goal. The. Yeah, the ends justify the means. Like if I can make this work as a, as a career, then sure, I'll do in person sales. So I learned how to do that. I actually got pretty good at it and I was running my business that way for the first seven years. I was able to quit my job in healthcare. I speaking probably among the highest per client average in my area at that time. So from the outside I think everybody would have been like, oh, that business is super successful. But then circumstances in my life changed in 2017. So seven years into my business I got divorced. And of course with that came all of the sort of necessary changes to my budget and everything else because instead of being a two income household, all of a sudden it was just me, I have 2K. I also, they were young enough at the time that like, if I was leaving the house, I needed a babysitter, all the, all the different things. So I, you know, sitting down, looking at my numbers, looking at my hours and realizing that even though I was making good money per client, what I was doing wasn't sustainable with this new set of circumstances because I couldn't scale it up at all. The in person sales process can be great, but it is very time consuming. There's a lot of back and forth, there's a lot of meeting time, there's a lot of FaceTime. So I was going to be paying a babysitter to go to these sales sessions, et cetera, et cetera. And I just like, I couldn't make the math math. So my alternatives at that point were really just to go back to my old job which felt like, you know, when you're already everything in your life is Flipping upside down. You're like, what? I've built this business that I love. Why would you take that away from me too?

Jill Smith (5:21)

It's like moving back in with your parents.

Annemie Tonkin (5:23)

Totally. Which I was like also on the cusp of doing. And, and I didn't do that thankfully, but. But I was able to. So anyway, and then the other alternative that I saw was to go to an all inclusive model. But you know, there are some issues with all inclusive. And at that time it, you know, it is different now, but at that time it was really like I felt like there was almost no way to charge what I was charging per client. So I was gonna be taking financially a big step backward per client. And I was like, okay, but I can take on more clients. And I was like, so what am I trading here? It's just a time for money trade. And then one day it kind of all came to me that like out there in the world, in other businesses, there are options in between. So if we move this, I like to use restaurants or an easy one. You know, you've got your fancy restaurants with like 18 courses and tweezer food and the whole thing and it costs hundreds and hundreds of dollars. And then you've got McDonald's and the drive thru, but you've also got like a thousand different options in between, right? Like nice casual, fine dining or Chipotle, you know, like there's all these different options in between. And I felt like photography, you know, if you, if you brought it down to the basics, didn't really have a middle ground. So I sat down and I was like, what is it about in person sales that makes people willing to spend more money? What is it that makes them feel like they're being taken care of better? Because I know that even if I switch to all inclusive, it's not like all of a sudden my photos would be worse. Why is it that people wouldn't be willing to pay just as much? So I broke that down in my mind. I sort of paced it out. I took a lot of. I was, I have a bunch of different degrees that have nothing to do with what I do now. But one of them was in psychology. And so I was looking at sales psychology. I was looking at sort of the way that people think about buying decisions. And of course, in in person sales, I was able to sit in the room and listen to people talking about what was exciting to them, what was holding them back, what they were nervous about, et cetera, et cetera. And in, in the in person sales setting, I was able to address those things right there and then. But when I took a step back, you know, there's definite patterns to the way that people process the sales, you know, that process, like how they sort of mentally go through that, how they justify certain things to themselves, et cetera. And so what I did was basically reverse engineer the in person sales process and take the technology that was available to me, which I am not a tech person.

Jill Smith (8:10)

Right.

Annemie Tonkin (8:10)

I was, I was like, what are the basics? Basics of what I'm already using that I can kind of, you know, reverse engineer to meet my needs. So I used my online gallery system or software plus my, my email basically. And then I started creating a bunch of little short videos. And I've used, you know, everything from YouTube to Vimeo to Loom like that the tool itself doesn't matter.

Jill Smith (8:39)

Right.

Annemie Tonkin (8:40)

But I basically made it so that I was providing a lot of the same services that I was providing with in person sales, but in a more automated way. And I tied that all together and it was like a Hail Mary pass in my business. I launched it that may kind of like, well, it's a, it's this or nothing. Like, I'll, we'll see if this works. And it worked really, really well to the extent that that year I was able to increase my income by over 30%. That was the. That I broke six figures and like, bearing in mind that I had taken a couple of months off to like finish getting divorced and move and all that other stuff. So by the end of that year, I was up by 30% financially. But more importantly, I had cut my work time by half. So all of a sudden I was running a business that looked a lot different. And about a year later, in early 2019, my online gallery software reached out to me and they were like, so you're like, we're looking at the back end of your numbers here. What is it that you're doing in your. With your clients to get them to purchase this many prints and products online because they weren't seeing other family photographers getting those kinds of results. And so that sort of was that plus the fact that I had all this extra time in my schedule started the wheels turning where I was like, I think other photographers could really benefit from this. And a year later I started teaching it.

Jill Smith (10:16)

Yeah, it's obviously I've heard this backstory before and it's wonderful. And I. One of the things that's really cool to me is that pic time reached out to you and then you no longer had to Frankenstein your Systems, because then they were like, oh, we're actually going to kind of create this system within our platform so that everybody. So I think that is so cool. And there's so many little portals to rabbit holes that you just opened up in that story.

Annemie Tonkin (10:43)

I know, sorry. I was like, there's the short story. And then I talked for 10 minutes.

Jill Smith (10:48)

My ADHD is like constantly seeking those. I was like, oh, yeah, that's a tangent that I would like to go on right now.

Annemie Tonkin (10:52)

Totally.

Jill Smith (10:55)

But I love that, I love that I, I think that so many photographers like who you were early on thinking, like, well, I'm not really a business person, so let me let somebody else teach me how to do this. If you have been in business for about a decade, then you were also subjected to the education that said it was IPS or bust, right?

Annemie Tonkin (11:17)

Yep.

Jill Smith (11:18)

In person, sales had to be it. And if not, you were leaving money on the table and, and doing a disservice to the industry because now you were a shooting burner and you were right.

Annemie Tonkin (11:28)

So there was a lot of judgment involved.

Jill Smith (11:30)

Oh, big time, Big time. And of course, like, my brain went down that path many times, thinking, like, well, I guess that's what I have to do. And like, even at one point set up a room in my studio to offer ips, and I never did that. So I appreciate that, number one, that you did go down that road and got good at it. Because what I think that proves and what I. What I think you showcase. Like you said, you have many degrees. None are in photography or business, but you're a creative person. And that's really all that business requires in like sales and marketing, is a creative person. I think that so often that photographers, when they're looking for, to improve their business, they're looking for technical things, they're looking for technical improvements, and that's the easy way out. And it's not usually the way out. Right. Normally what you need to do is improve the business part of your business and you're, you're probably a fine photographer. So anyway, I, I love that you, you figured that out, that you could be really good at sales and, and then you translated that into a model that worked for you because that's, that's the key to success, is figuring out how to take this thing that works for many and make it work for you in a sustainable way. For me, like I said, I went down the IPS road. I felt a lot of shame, I felt a lot of guilt. But. But as a family photographer, you get an Established client base. Your clients were used to getting prints and getting product and having a hands on experience as an established family photographer who was in a situation where I was not getting divorced. But I needed to raise my prices significantly, which happened to me many times in the last 10 or 12 years. I needed a way to do it gracefully and it was 2022. When did you launch simple Sales?

Annemie Tonkin (13:32)

As I launched in 2020, that was the first time I started teaching. Yeah.

Jill Smith (13:37)

So I think I found you by 2021 or 2022 when I started binging your podcast. And you don't sell a lot on your podcast, but I listened to it long enough to hear and your podcast, it's called this can't be that hard for anybody who doesn't know. Some I just assume people know this. But I listen long enough to be like, I think this is the solution. I think simple sales is that gray area that in between solution that I need to get to that next level of income. And I recognize that it was something that I could do comfortably. I did not need to outfit a room in my studio to start selling people or even go to their homes. And, and it was the way that I used simple sales was knowing that I was going to return back to an all inclusive model but at a higher price point. But do it in a way that was comfortable for me because one, I was able to say this session fee with more confidence than I could say that higher number of what my, my sales average needed to be.

Annemie Tonkin (14:51)

Right.

Jill Smith (14:52)

So there was that for me and then there was for my clients too who might have had trepidation about a higher price point. Now the buy in was a much lower, much lower hurdle than than they had before. And there was that confidence like well, if I don't love it all, I don't have to buy it all. And then you have that their reassurance too. But then the third thing is then you get data, you get to see, okay, what am I actually bringing in per session. And if that happens long enough and you're seeing trends, then you can confidently or for me, I could confidently then get back to my all inclusive model at this higher price point that I now have confidence in asking for, knowing that my clients will pay it. And I think that this is an underutilized tool because I think for most photographers they think it is IPS or all inclusive without understanding like no, there's actually something in between that, that can be a solution for you that to raise your prices because geez, I don't know. I I struggled. And this is why I talk so much to the people that I work with, the photographers I work with, about pricing. I struggled so much every single time that I had to raise my prices. The psychology behind it, the emotion. There's a lot entangled in pricing for us as artists who only 6% of us have a degree in this field. So there we have a lot of imposter syndrome and as people who are not formally trained in sales. So there's a whole lot that's tied up emotionally for us as photographers in pricing and raising our prices that I, I hope that anybody else who's feeling, that sees this is a possible solution, that you will, that will, you will see the return on, immediately as, as whatever, whatever the cost of your course is. Now. I, I, it was something I saw return on immediate, within one, one session.

Annemie Tonkin (17:03)

Yeah. I love that.

Jill Smith (17:05)

Yeah.

Annemie Tonkin (17:05)

And I, I want to just point out you've brought up two words. You've said them multiple times that I really think are key to the whole shebang, and those are confidence and creativity. So as creatives, we are typically good with creativity, obviously, but there's, I feel like we tend to pigeonhole ourselves. We're like, I'm an artist. I'm creative in this one specific way, and I always like to invite people to think a little bit outside the box, like, get creative with your definition of creativity. Business has really become the thing, and I know this is true for you in many ways as well, that it's like I almost get more excited about the creative, like the creative opportunities within business than I do these days with my camera. And, you know, it's an evolution always. There was a period of time, a long period of time where I was so obsessed with photography and my camera. And now it's not that I don't love doing those things and I still am working as a photographer, but the things that sort of I wake up with these ideas about have really transitioned into business. And that has served not only my, you know, bottom line. I mean, business certainly is about making money at the end of the day, but it has served my art because I'm 15 years deep now. Like, I've been doing this for a long time. I have served hundreds of clients, many of them for many years. And, and I would not have been able to do that. I wouldn't have made it past 2017 period, like, full stop, if I hadn't figured out a way, if I hadn't gotten creative with the business side of things. So I always want to remind people that part of your journey as a photographer involves running a business that works. And so that is going to require creativity because we tend not to be people who like to paint by the numbers. So, you know, figure out what's out there, learn the stuff and tweak it. Which is. Which brings me to the other piece, that other word, confidence. So many photographers out there, I mean, you know, obviously getting divorced or having some sort of, like, major lifequake happen that requires you to make money is one thing. But like, most photographers that I talk to are, you know, will say like, oh, yeah, my prices are too low, I need to raise them, or I am so burnt out. I am working so hard for the amount of money that I was making at my old career where I punched in and punched out or less. But they aren't ready to make that next step or they don't know how to make that next step confidently. And finding confidence allows the people out there who you serve to be confident in paying higher prices. I mean, you can't be like, well, maybe it'll work out, you know, pay me a whole bunch of money. I think I'm going to be able to deliver. Like, you have to be able to show up confidently to inspire that confidence in your clients. And it's like bridging that gap is the. Is the big mystery for a lot of people.

Jill Smith (20:17)

It so is. It so is. And yeah, the confidence is huge. I even teach people to repeat their new price over and over again in the mirror, in the shower when they're driving just to get used to the sound of it. Because that alone helps take away the. The sound of trepidation in our voices when we communicate it.

Annemie Tonkin (20:39)

That cute little tremor like, yeah, the.

Jill Smith (20:42)

Upspeak at the end, it's gonna be, you know, I feel like my business, the. The technical piece, the photography piece is the painting by numbers piece. Right. That's where I have the parameters in place of, this is my portfolio. I really need to, like, dance within these lines that I've already put out there. Sure. Behind the scenes, the admin, the business, the marketing, that's where I could take risks and try new things and really be creative. And yeah, I am. Obviously, I don't consider myself a fantastic photographer by any means. I can produce a thing that I say I'm going to produce that I've produced in the past. I'm not. Like, I follow a lot of photographers whose work I admire so much because of how creative they are and they're. The risks they take and thinking of things I never would have thought of. But for me, that's. That happens in the business part of my business, and that I also wake up excited or go to sleep excited with new ideas. And I would like that to be something that more photographers realize so they can stay in the game. Because I think a lot of people dip out once they. Once they start to think that the business piece is more than they can handle or boring or too black and white. But it's so not. It's so fun. It's really fun.

Annemie Tonkin (22:05)

Well, and I'm. I am right there with you. I, of course, follow a lot of photographers who. I'm like, you're 10 times better than I am. And I actually, once upon a time, several years ago, hired one of my sort of photography idols, somebody who was so super creative and super just, like, outside the lines all the time. And I remember when I reached out and got the pricing back, on what that person was charging, they charged like, a third of what I was charging. And I was like, yeah, I. I laughed. I was. This was not, like a condescending laugh. I was like, this is nuts. I can't believe that, you know, this is the way that, you know, this lines up. And not to say that I don't think my photography is good. I'm just like you. It's like, I don't think I would have been in business for 15 years if. If I wasn't serving up a good product. But I don't necessarily think it's anything groundbreaking. I haven't taken, like, a photography art class in longer than I care to admit in terms of, you know, I'm not pushing those boundaries. So I think you can do it a bunch of different ways. That person has since gone out of business, though. And that is the sort of thing that. That I always remind myself, you're not doing anyone yourself or your clients assert any sort of service by not attending to the business side of your business. Because if something isn't sustainable, that means that it will. You know, it will end, whether because you burn out or because of some sort of, like, pressure that says something's gotta give.

Jill Smith (23:40)

Yeah. And I would almost encourage people listening because this is just a conversation I had with one of my mentees yesterday. And she is ADHD like I am and succumbs to her bright shiny object syndrome a lot. And it's always on the art front. So she's constantly grasping at straws, trying to figure out, like, what's that next thing that she needs to accomplish on the photography end. Where I am trying to say, like, I know it's boring to keep doing the same type of work over and over again, use the same presets and the same workflow and everything like that. But your clients don't realize that it's monotonous. Only you do. Instead, get behind the scenes, get creative there, have fun there. Like, try to ignore the temptation to constantly be one. Upping yourself or trying new things or switching up your style because you feel like this is old and stale or whatever. That's actually a sign that you're you. You should keep going at what you're doing. It's those people who are willing to just commit and stay on that path, which is hard. I am always struggling with this. But on the artistic front, that's where the money is.

Annemie Tonkin (24:56)

Yeah, yeah.

Jill Smith (24:57)

I hate to be, like, blunt, like, but. But that's. That's where you need to be consistent. You need to be predictable in what you're producing. So, yeah, that was only a minor tangent, I guess, though. It's gonna happen. It's gonna happen.

Annemie Tonkin (25:11)

But.

Jill Smith (25:13)

The other thing that I failed to mention when I use Simple Sales to graduate my client base to a new price point was that I coupled it with revenue on repeat, which is something that. I don't know if you still sell alongside it, but it was some. It was a bundle at the time that I took advantage of, and that was huge in bringing people on or keeping people on as I raised my prices. And I. It's something else that I recommend to people. I actually just had a strategy call with somebody yesterday where we talked about she needs to raise her price, and she had polled her audience on what would make it easier for them to keep booking. And a subscription membership sort of plan is what a lot of people told her they would be interested in. So, what. What. How do you see revenue on Repeat as a tool to work alongside of Simple Sales? Because I have to imagine that you. You use it in your business. I know that. And that you kind of paired them strategically. Yeah, yeah.

Annemie Tonkin (26:23)

Well, I didn't pair them strategically. When I first started using Simple Sales, which, of course didn't have a name in 2017. It was just like my new system that I was using. But what happened was I was, you know, cruising along, doing well, had actually already heard from PIC Time saying, like, hey, we want to build out this. This automation, whatever. So I was working on all that, and at the same time, I was having trouble in 2019 when I was working because my. I had this old ankle injury that Was giving me a bunch of trouble. So I had gone to see a doctor and they were like, yeah, you've got a bunch of cartilage damage. We can do elective surgery on this to clean it up. It's going to be like a pretty quick recovery. You can schedule it whenever. So I scheduled it in December of 2019. Excuse me, December of 2018.

Jill Smith (27:13)

Oh, okay.

Annemie Tonkin (27:14)

So I guess that I'm getting my dates confused, But I came out of surgery and they were like, actually, there was a lot more damage. We needed to do a lot more stuff in there. So you're not going to be off your feet for two weeks. You're going to be off your feet for more like three to four months. Thankfully, that was my slow season anyway, Right. So I had just finished up my busy fall, and then I had January, February, March, But I had zero income during those three months. And again, this was like another massive wall that I hit in my business where I was like, oh, my God, everything is going to fall apart. And I started thinking about, like, how can I stabilize my income? And we live in a society where every single business has started to recognize that recurring predictable revenue beats individual large purchases over time, hands down. So if you can get somebody to sign up to pay you regularly at even a low rate, versus every once in a while popping up and being like, hey, you want to buy from me? Hey, you want to buy from me? You will, over time, see a much higher return on your marketing dollars and everything else. Plus, it's a lot easier. It's a lot safer for someone to commit to smaller, you know, payments over time, whatever. So what I devised was basically a portrait membership concept that I now teach, as you mentioned in this course, revenue on repeat, which is basically taking a portrait client that you have worked with and enjoyed. So I still use simple sales. When someone first comes to me and they first meet me, I'm putting them through that simple sales process to make sure it's a good fit, to make sure that, you know, they understand what the actual normal value of working with me is, because my simple sales prices are a bit higher than my membership prices. But then after our time together, if it is a good fit, and I'm like, great, I want to work with this family. Every year. I offer them a spot in my membership and I pitch it to them sort of right at that point of like, they've gotten their photos, the money that they spent is in the rear view mirror. They're not really thinking about that. They're just so glad that they decided to work with me. And they're starting to think, like, we should do this every year. We should. You know, I want to have a shelf full of albums on my, you know, like, that my grandkids can pull down and look through. That is something that I think many of us aspire to. Any of us who are parents or, you know, if our parents have something like that, we can understand the value of that. But. But we don't make it easy for our clients to do that, because every time that they come to work with us, it's a big investment. They have to talk their partner into it. They have to, like, do all the. Jump through all the hoops. So I basically laid it out as, like, I'm going to make it as easy as possible for you to, like, check that box. Let's press the easy button. I'll take care of all the details. And so when somebody comes into the membership, they go on to a monthly automated payment plan. Every year. They get a session with me, they get some other goodies, they get a little bit of a price break. Like, there's a whole formula to the way that I have put that offer together. So now instead of having someone, you know, hire me every two to three years for a certain amount of money, instead they're paying me slightly less, but it's coming in every single year, divided up into months. So I launched that in 2019, in August. And then, you know, lo and behold, Covid hits in 2020, and all my photographer friends are scrambling because their income stopped short. And I was just getting these auto payments coming into my bank account that floated me. And again, I mean, I look at that and I'm like, I wouldn't be in business right now if I hadn't built that into my. Into the sustainability piece. Because that was. It was just me, myself, and I bringing money in. So. So to bring it back to creativity, this was just another. I mean, in my case, apparently I come up with ideas under pressure, but. But it was just another I wasn't making, especially that one that was not out of thin air. I mean, I was looking around at all the different subscriptions that I was paying and how they made my life easier. And I was like, how can I do this for the clients that come to me and say, oh, we meant to come. We meant to, you know, come work with you again last year, but things got busy. And so, you know, we always want to think about how we're solving problems for people and that. I feel like the membership, one is a no brainer for anyone who serves clients. I mean, obviously if you're a wedding photographer, this is probably not the right model for you for this particular part of your business. But I now teach brand clients and pet photographers and family photographers, all kinds of different photographers how to set this up and sell it in their business. And I, I mean at this point I wouldn't run my business without it.

Jill Smith (32:26)

Right? Yeah, I think it's a must for brand photographers. I always, I have a couple of friends who do brand photography and I'm like, you have to use this system. It, it would make zero sense for you to not get these people on basically a retainer. Like they, they, these businesses have retainers with other service providers and vendors. It's, it's natural for them. I am a family photographer. So like you, I have people who I should be seeing every year. And like I tell other family photographers, you have to make this as easy as possible for these people. Like if you're not a parent already, you will find out eventually that you have a to do list a mile long. And your family, like getting your family photos scheduled is going to get buried by their things that are always cropping up. So if you don't make this the easiest thing for them to check off their list, it is going to fall to the wayside. And it's not because of your prices. No, because when people forget to book the photographer on the other end is like, I was too expensive. They went to somebody else. Like, no, they probably just forgot because you're not dinging them enough.

Annemie Tonkin (33:36)

Ye.

Jill Smith (33:38)

But, and, but I have also adapted this to the newborn part of my business because I do photograph newborns and pregnant women, which funnels into my family photography. And it's a great model for them too because that is like you want to talk about bundling a bunch of sessions into one year. That's like you are jam packed the year that you get pregnant and have a baby. So I would encourage newborn photographers who think that this model wouldn't apply to them because then like I, I have a friend, one of my best friends is a newborn photographer who does not like photographing families.

Annemie Tonkin (34:16)

Yep.

Jill Smith (34:17)

But she will do it for past newborn clients like on the back end. And this is a great way for somebody like her to then like invite them back in. Like, yeah, we can work together. You know, I can photograph your family, but this is how I offer it. It's through my, my subscription program.

Annemie Tonkin (34:35)

Totally.

Annemie Tonkin (34:35)

And the, when you make it easy.

Annemie Tonkin (34:40)

For not just your clients, but for yourself. Because this is the thing that I love about having a membership, is that I have about 60 to 70% of my annual income accounted for before the.

Annemie Tonkin (34:51)

Beginning of the year.

Annemie Tonkin (34:52)

You know, it's like, I look down and I'm like, I have 40 members in my membership, which means that I make X dollars a month. Like, I know.

Jill Smith (34:59)

Exactly.

Annemie Tonkin (35:00)

So then I say, okay, so I need to get. Instead of, I need to book 80 clients this year, it's like I need to find 20 clients out there, which becomes much easier and makes you feel and look and feel to your potential clients much more exclusive. But it also takes that ability to. You're not working for it. You're. You're basically coordinating a time. It's people that you've worked with before, so they already know, like, how you like them to get ready and all that sort of stuff. I mean, obviously you're sending them reminders. You're not just leaving them out in the cold. But it's so much easier to work with somebody that you've worked with before.

Annemie Tonkin (35:42)

And it becomes easier and easier over time.

Annemie Tonkin (35:44)

So I also work with newborns, and I love bringing somebody in as a maternity or a newborn client because I know that if I put my ducks in a row, if I, like, do the. Do right by them, I have a client for the next 10 to 15 years that's going to join my membership and be paying my salary, basically, which is. It just takes so much pressure off the back end of the business. So if you are somebody who's like, I'm not a business person. A membership is a great way to get out of or off of the hamster wheel of like, running, running. Running a business so hard.

Jill Smith (36:22)

Yeah, it, it. The first year that I implemented it, I was able to schedule a month off. Not just like, say, oh, I have enough money, I can take a week off right now. Right. No, it was like I could look ahead and be like, well, I know this money is going to hit my bank account. I'm going to take January or December off. I'm going to take December off. And I did. And it was, It's a huge part of my business now. Just be able to do that, to be able to look ahead and be like, I don't have to. That. And, and the, when you partner, like introducing a membership with a price increase. Yeah. It. They feed each other, you know that the, the looming price increase that your clients see coming does incentivize them to like, yeah, let me, let me jump on this membership because this is perfect. It's perfect timing and it makes it so much easier for people. It's funny because I also observed for years before I heard of you or Revenue and repeat, that subscriptions were the new way to pay for things. Sure. But I could never figure out how to make that work for my business. So when you came along, you were like, I figured it out. Yes, finally. Thank you.

Annemie Tonkin (37:37)

Yeah, I know. Well, it was kind of a funny thing when it occurred to me. I was like, ooh, how could I make this work? So immediately I just went to Google and was like, who can teach me how to do this? And I couldn't find anything.

Jill Smith (37:51)

There was no.

Annemie Tonkin (37:51)

So then I had that whole thing where I was like, oh, God, where is the massive flaw in my plan here? Right? Because if you think of something that seems obvious and then nobody else is doing it, it's like, well, I'm clearly overlooking something. But it has turned out to be as good or better than I had hoped.

Jill Smith (38:12)

Right. And I gave a talk recently on ways to raise your prices gracefully. And I talked about the membership and the people in the audience who had questions kept referring to it as a payment plan. So talk about why it's different. I know why it's different, but talk about why it's different from a payment plan and all that.

Annemie Tonkin (38:34)

Yeah. So I did baby plans for years, and that certainly was not a new concept. I didn't come up with that and a baby plan. I put my baby plan members on a payment plan. It was usually a quarterly payment plan. But the difference, the way that I see it, is that a baby plan is really intended to be a year or, you know, I've talked to some people who do more like a two year baby plan or something like that. There is a finite period of time during which it's like there's a beginning and an end with a membership. Although someone can cancel, certainly, and they can, you know, not renew their membership. What they are doing is they are signing up for this ongoing relationship. And until they say no more. And I teach lots of ways to remind people when their renewal time is coming up that they really, this is something that's really valuable for them. But until they say no more, that's just an ongoing plan. Like you have signed up to have family photos made every year. And it does become one of those things where as long as you're delivering for them and they're not moving away or anything like that, it is easier for them to continue to say yes than to say, you know what, I don't want to do this anymore. Um, and this is the thing, especially, you know, with family photographers. I always say, think to yourself, because you're right, many of us will rely on like, well, I think I was just too expensive. I think my prices were too high. That's an easy excuse for us. It's an easy excuse if you ask someone, oh, so I know you didn't hire me. Any reason why it's an easy thing for somebody to be like, well, it was just more than we were planning on spending. That may be the truth. Or it may be the easier thing to say rather than like, oh, let me give you. Let me write you three paragraphs about how my husband and I had an argument about this and we had a family session done three years ago that totally flopped and it was awful. You know, like, there's a lot that goes into it and it's really none of your business. Right. So money is a sort of neutral topic that a lot of people will be like, it's just money. When it comes down to it, you're like, hit the nail on the head. It is a hard thing that a lot of. And I will say it's usually women. It's like they know, they see that potential future where they've got all these beautiful photos of their family changing over time, da, da, da. And they want to make that happen. But it's like everything in the world, every person in their life is conspiring against them. Do you think that a six year old is like, yeah, mom, let's get photos made and I'm gonna get up and be super cooperative and helpful. We're all gonna clean up house. And you know, I mean, it's like the easier thing is to say, you know what, never mind, I'll just let it go.

Jill Smith (41:28)

Right?

Annemie Tonkin (41:29)

So when we make it easy for people to say yes, when we make it so that they have been paying into this over the course of the last six months. So when their husband is like family photos, they can just be like, well, it's already paid for. Yes, you're making it easier for them.

Jill Smith (41:45)

Yeah, it is. It has to be easy. There has to be like no friction in the process. And the membership is. Is clearly one way to just totally lubricate the process. Is that gross? That's a little gross. But it is like the membership it has for when you are working with pregnant people, when you're working with parents. You know, I think that there's a difference. When you are catering to brides. Brides will usually have the Time to mull over your website, read every word in your copy, compare and contrast. Have a spreadsheet of the photographers they're considering. I know when I was a bride, I had the time and the bandwidth to do that.

Annemie Tonkin (42:27)

Right.

Jill Smith (42:27)

As a parent, when I was pregnant, that time went out the window, that energy went out the window. And now I want to be able to land a photo. And I am middle class. I'm not like in a position to spend whatever. Right. But I am. My time is still more finite than the money I have. There is much less time in my. In my bank account. So when I find a photographer I want. I don't want to have to like do a bunch of things before I can book them or find out that. So it like this is. It is so important to make it easy for the people who want to work with you to just do it. Yeah. Like let them check it off. So if I work with a lot of busy people, I'm sure you work with a lot of busy people.

Annemie Tonkin (43:13)

Sure.

Jill Smith (43:14)

How many times are the people who are not members are you reaching out to like, hey, I know you told me last year that you didn't want to miss this. Like can we get this on the calendar? And that is like, it's work. That's work. So just take away the friction, make it easy. Make it easy for you. And yeah, if you don't like to sell, what's easier? What's less salesy than an automated payment?

Annemie Tonkin (43:38)

Yeah, pretty much.

Jill Smith (43:39)

Yeah, it is. It's so good. So before I wrap this up, I just want to talk really quick on the elephant in the room or what I think it is is that return on investment. So when you are thinking about. But I also need to preface all of this to say that Anime did not ask to come on here and pitch. She is not wanting to pitch. This is me getting really excited about something that has worked for me. Something that I've had other photographers ask me about now. And I didn't want to talk on behalf of her program or on behalf of her reasoning behind all of this. This is me just being really excited and wanting people to know that this is a zero risk way. Because when I say risk, I mean spending money and then not getting a return on it.

Annemie Tonkin (44:34)

Yeah.

Jill Smith (44:35)

On me's education for whatever your business model is is a zero risk way for you to kind of take that next step and bridge the gap from what you're charging now to what you need to be making. And even if you know, I am an all inclusive photographer, My clients want me to remain an all inclusive photographer. This can be a temporary thing to get you there and pair it with revenue on repeat. Forget it. Like you are going to make this transition to that price point where you need to be to stay in business so much easier. And then you can look at your calendar, be like, I think I'm going to take December off this year.

Annemie Tonkin (45:19)

I love that and thank you. I would invite you to come speak open for me anywhere. I. Yeah. When it comes to return on investment, my I've, you know, selling online courses is a funny thing. It you get into exactly the same headspace you do when you're like, what should I, how should I price my photography? I'll just look around at what other people are charging. That's what you do in the beginning. It's what I did in the beginning. And then the longer that I had been teaching and the more students that I had coming back to me basically being like exactly what you said. I was so worried about investing this money and then I made the money back on my very first client. I try to stick with that as my metric where even though sometimes it feels like, I mean, we've all been burned on online courses, I always have guarantees. Like there's always a refund period, but there's also the I price from a position of a lot of confidence at this point that if you, if this seems like a good system for you and you're ready to put in the work. And I do, I mean, I pack a lot into my courses. So, you know, you got, you have to set the time aside to go through it. But once you get that launched and running, I know that you're going to make that back in very short order. So it's really just a matter of like making that mental commitment. And I think, you know, it's kind of trite to say it like when you invest in something, when you spend money on something, I know for me it's like if I have a free gym membership, good luck getting me to show up. But if I'm paying for it, then I'm like, I'm gonna drag my butt out of bed and put on my shoes. And. And I feel like it's the same way sometimes when there is a little bit of a, you know, a price tag that makes somebody be like, well, all right, I'm in. Then I know that I'm going to end up with students who get better results because they're committed. And that's. Yeah, I've seen it consistently over Time. And I love that. I give people a ton of support. I have, you know, even five years later, I'm showing up all the time for my students. And it brings me, and I know you know, this as an educator, a ton of joy and satisfaction to watch other people have that like, moment of, oh, maybe this business can actually work long term. Maybe I can retire from photography because I want to sometime in the future, not because, like, I've sort of fizzled out.

Jill Smith (48:01)

Yeah, absolutely. And you are. You are a very present and transparent educator, which is why you are still in business as a photographer. Because those things just go hand in hand with any sort of providing anything to anybody, just being able to be an honest human. So I thank you for that and I thank you for. For coming. Yeah. And I was. So, as you know, is really, I wasn't sure if you would want to let me position your product this way. But I. I think. I think anybody who is on the precipice of a price increase, which many usually usually are, will see this as another opportunity. And right now, we're talking it's February. This will probably air in March. Don't think that you need to do all this at the beginning of a new calendar year. In fact, when you do introduce these big changes, price increases, new models, as long as you have the capacity to do it when you are about to be busy so that you can really see how your audience is responding to this and then course correct in real time instead of being doing it in January and saying, oh, it's not working. Nobody's calling me.

Annemie Tonkin (49:15)

We always get a flurry of new students at the beginning of the year. And like, sure as can be, you can set your watch mid February. They're like, my phone isn't ringing at all. And I'm always like, okay, I want you to look back at your calendar from last year at this time. How many inquiries were you getting? It's just a quiet time of year, so. Yeah, no, I'm right there with you. It's like, get yourself set up so that you can actually compare apples to apples.

Jill Smith (49:39)

That's right.

Annemie Tonkin (49:39)

Yeah.

Jill Smith (49:40)

Well, thank you so much for coming on.

Annemie Tonkin (49:42)

Jill, thank you so much.

Jill Smith (49:43)

This has been a breath of fresh air, a pleasure.

Annemie Tonkin (49:46)

Yeah, likewise. And it's been lovely spending the morning with you.

Jill Smith (49:51)

Yeah, you too. Well, thanks again and we'll talk soon.

Annemie Tonkin (49:54)

Sounds good. Thank you.

Annemie Tonkin (49:56)

What I love about this chat with Jill is that it really shows how creative problem solving is. Can change everything in your business. None of this is about being flashy. Or reinventing the wheel. It's really about building systems that make your work easier and your income more reliable. So if you're in that space where you're ready to grow but you're not sure how to do it sustainably, I would love for you to check out Simple Sales. It's the system that I built to simplify pricing, boost profits, and give photographers their time back. And at this point, it has helped thousands of photographers do exactly that. The way you can learn more and.

Annemie Tonkin (50:37)

Figure out whether this is the right.

Annemie Tonkin (50:39)

System for you is by signing up and watching the On Demand Masterclass that I offer@thiscantbethard.com Simple. It's about 40 minutes long, it's totally free. But I dive really specifically into every step of the system so that you.

Annemie Tonkin (50:57)

Can figure out whether this is the.

Annemie Tonkin (50:59)

Right next move for you in your business one way or another. Here is to building a business that gives you freedom, not burnout in the new year and beyond. And I can.

Annemie Tonkin (51:10)

Cheers to that.

Annemie Tonkin (51:14)

That's it for this week's episode of this Can't Be that Hard. I'll be back same time, same place next week. If you like the show, be sure to check out this Can't Be that Hard to explore all the resources we have for photographers. And of course it would mean the world to me if you would leave.

Annemie Tonkin (51:28)

A review of the show on itunes or Spotify.

Annemie Tonkin (51:31)

As always, thanks so much for joining me. I hope you have a fantastic week.