355 - External Organization: The Secret to Client Confidence with Erin Wissig

Summary

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Podcast Summary: This Can't Be That Hard

Episode 355 – External Organization: The Secret to Client Confidence

Host: Annemie Tonken
Guest: Erin Wissig, Systems Strategist & VA
Date: February 10, 2026

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Overview

This episode dives deep into the concept of external organization: the client-facing systems and workflows that elevate a photography business from “held together with duct tape” to polished, professional, and sanity-preserving. Host Annemie Tonken welcomes guest Erin Wissig — a systems strategist and virtual assistant specializing in photography businesses — to discuss actionable strategies for assessing, refining, and automating the client experience, from inquiry to post-delivery. Together, they tease apart the difference between organizing behind-the-scenes and building visible, confidence-inspiring systems.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Importance of External Organization

• Defining External vs. Internal Organization

  • Internal = private, back-end order, e.g., having a tidy desk.
  • External = client journey: what systems and touchpoints your clients experience, and how that impacts trust and satisfaction. (A, [00:00])

• Why It Matters:

  • A smooth, frictionless process not only saves time but also signals to clients that they're in expert hands.
  • Professionalized experiences increase client confidence, reduce booking resistance, and even support higher rates.

2. When Photographers Seek Help

• Who Approaches Erin?

  • Mostly established photographers (“two to three years in, or seasoned pros expanding their business”) feeling bogged down by admin tasks at the cost of shooting/editing time. (C, [04:15])
  • Sometimes newer photographers who’ve been wisely advised to start with systems.
  • Erin observes that “family photographers” are her most common clients, along with those running both client sessions and mentorships/courses.

• Signals It's Time for Better Systems:

  • “They know they need help, but don’t know what that looks like.” (C, [04:59])
  • Frustration over admin bottlenecks, invoice chasing, missed opportunities.

3. The Audit & Client Journey Mapping Process

a. Start with the Website Experience

• Big Picture Assessment: What are you offering? Who are your clients? What’s currently working, and where are the friction points?

  • Erin starts every engagement by going to the client’s website and “walks through it like a client”:
    • How hard is it to book?
    • Are prices clear?
    • Is there instant feedback after inquiry? (C, [07:53])

  “I ask, what are the friction points? …I want it to be the clearest path.” — Erin Wissig, [09:53]

• Quick Wins:

  • Use autoresponders for inquiries: deliver key info quickly to match short attention spans and beat competitors.
  • “Backlinks” in emails to reinforce essential info clients often miss on the website.
  • If your CRM allows, use a “Book Now” button for the path of least resistance.

b. Booking and Qualification Paths

• For higher-investment clients, prefer a “Book a Call” action instead of instant booking.

  • Use a qualifying questionnaire to pre-screen, saving discussion time. (C, [12:44])
  • The goal is clear: remove friction, but retain control where needed.

  “An inquiry button doesn’t always do that… This gives them an action step.” — Erin Wissig, [14:03]

c. The Post-Booking Client Journey

• CRM as Backbone:

  • Strongly recommends moving from manual, piecemeal processes into an all-in-one CRM.
  • “If you are still trying to do this by email or text… bless you. You need to invest in a CRM.” (C, [15:10])

• Segmentation:

  • Build pipelines/workflows for each offering (e.g., wedding vs. family vs. newborn) so language and touchpoints are tailored.

• Branded Touchpoints:

  • Use your own photography assets throughout communications to reinforce brand and client trust.

  “If you can't be using the beautiful photos that you are taking…look at a different platform.” — Erin Wissig, [16:16]

• Include Value and Reduce Questions:

  • Embed resources, guides, and answers to common questions, e.g., what to wear, location guides.

4. Automating without Losing the Human Touch

• Balance:

  • Automation is about “saving you time and emotional energy,” not replacing relationships. (C, [26:20])
  • Combine templates + optional customizable touches. In CRMs, schedule emails and questionnaires, but still allow for personalized notes as needed.

  “Automation does not equal robot. Automation is a process that’s going to save you some time, still has your personality in it.” — Erin Wissig, [26:20]

• Advanced Tips:

  • Use automations to segment clients post-session (e.g., maternity → drip campaign for newborn session promo).
  • “Emotionally painless” follow-up sequences for inquiries and unfinished bookings—removes emotional labor and decision fatigue. (C, [32:50])

  “You’ve put the work in ahead of time… then you just let it do its thing.” — Annemie Tonken, [31:11]

• Invoice Chasing:

  • Automate reminders for invoices, and consider having these emails (or at least the “bad guy” follow-ups) come from an assistant/other entity, not the main photographer.
  • Check and edit default automation emails so they sound like you. Personal touches = higher conversion.

  “If you have a client who's pushing back on all those boundaries, that's probably not a client you want to have come back.” — Erin Wissig, [37:13]

5. Booking Calendars & Reducing Scheduling Friction

• Encourage adoption of online booking calendars, even for partial or tentative bookings.

  • Don’t open up too many time slots; curated options convert better and overwhelm less. (C, [25:23])
  • Clearly communicate if listed times are placeholders, and be transparent with clients about flexibility if needed.

  “It actually shows a level of professional… taking it up to the next level.” — Erin Wissig, [22:40] “Don't put too many times on that calendar. …the more they have available, the more likely people are to book—and it is actually the opposite.” — Erin Wissig, [24:57]

6. For DIYers & Those Upgrading Systems: Where to Start

• Audit:

  • Start with your website and the first impression. Test your offering as if you’re a new client.
  • Make sure forms are from your CRM and fully embed into your site.

• Pick One Pipeline to Refine:

  • “Don’t get overwhelmed. Pick one spot, one offering, and play with it.” (C, [38:00])
  • Write out your full current step-by-step process for that offering; tweak and test.
  • Once it’s strong, clone and adjust for other workflows.

• Peer Feedback:

  • Have a trusted colleague run through your process and give objective feedback.

  “If you're starting with your bread and butter type of session, that's usually the one that's most robust…” — Annemie Tonken, [40:38]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “That admin takes a lot of time, a lot of stress. Not to mention they have to be editing. That’s not a piece they can really get rid of off their plate.”
  — Erin Wissig, [04:15]

• “The biggest thing that I'm telling people is, our attention spans as humans right now is very small. And we want instant gratification… I don't want my clients to lose out on a potential client compared to somebody else who responded very quickly.”
  — Erin Wissig, [10:13]

• “Professionalized experiences increase client confidence… and clients' budgets tend to stretch if they feel confident and shrink if they are not sure.”
  — Annemie Tonken, [19:52]

• “Emotional pain is taken out… we’re really doing it with intention. …This is how many [follow-ups] I feel comfortable with them getting. We’re also using some marketing psychology in there for timing.”
  — Erin Wissig, [32:50]

• “Automation does not equal robot. Automation is a process that’s going to save you some time, still has your personality in it.”
  — Erin Wissig, [26:20]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:47] Erin’s Introduction & Background
• [04:15] Signs it’s time to systematize/admin overwhelm
• [07:53] Starting the process: The website “audit”
• [09:53] Friction points & fixing inquiry processes
• [12:44] Balancing instant booking with qualification (book a call)
• [15:10] Building the client journey in your CRM
• [19:03] Why small details (like guides) matter for client trust
• [22:21] Booking calendars as a professionalism signal
• [24:57] Scheduling strategy: fewer curated choices convert best
• [26:20] Automating while maintaining relationship
• [30:08] Automating follow-ups to remove emotional labor
• [34:32] Automating invoices & handling “bad guy” communications
• [38:00] DIY start: pick one pipeline, audit and iterate
• [43:10] Erin’s free “Coffee Chat” offer

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Resources & Erin’s Offer

Free 30 Minute Coffee Chat:

• Erin offers podcast listeners a complimentary 30-minute chat to discuss pain points, brainstorm strategies, and get actionable tips for systemizing their studio. No strings attached.
• Book at erinwissig.com (direct scheduling link & resources available).

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Closing Thoughts

The episode is a must-listen (or read!) for photographers overwhelmed by admin, craving a more professional, frictionless booking experience, or finally ready to build the business systems that support growth and sustainability. Erin’s advice is actionable—start small, focus on client-facing touchpoints first, refine one workflow at a time, and let smart automation handle the rest (without sacrificing warmth or personality).

“Good policies are part of creating a good experience for your clients. …when it's postponed or neglected, it really, really shows.”
— Annemie Tonken, [44:51]

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Transcript

[A]

This month on the podcast, we are diving into all things organization, right? Not just the like I have a nice tidy desk kind of organization, but the kind that makes your business smoother, saner and more sustainable. Today's episode is part two in the four part series and what we're focusing on is what I like to call external organization, which is like the systems and the workflows that your clients experience and how those can make or break the way that your business runs. After doing some polling to figure out who you guys wanted to hear about on this subject over in the darkroom, I am very excited to announce Aaron Wissig as our special guest today. Aaron is a systems strategist and photography specific VA who helps photographers build custom workflows that kind of take the chaos out of the client management. So she and I had a great conversation about the difference between being organized behind the scenes and then building the systems that actually support your client journey all the way from inquiry to delivery to beyond. So if you have ever found yourself drowning an admin or wondering how to make your business feel just a little more professional and less duct taped together, you are going to get so much out of this conversation and I strongly encourage you to stick around all the way to the very end. Aaron has an extremely generous offer for our listeners and you're going to want to make sure that you tune in for that.

[B]

Welcome to this Can't Be that Hard. My name is Annemi Tonkin and I help photographers run profitable, sustainable businesses that they love. Each week on the podcast I cover simple, actionable strategies and systems that photographers at every level of experience can use to earn more money in a more sustainable way. Running a photography business doesn't have to be that hard. You can do it and I can show you how.

[A]

And Wysack, welcome to this Can't Be that Hard. I'm so excited to have you today and very excited to dive in on all things organization and kind of how I feel like people think about organization as it pertains to their own space or their own mental space. But I really think that almost the more important piece of being organized is how that translates into your client experience. So I'm really excited to have you here to join us about that topic today. Before we dive in, would you mind introducing yourself and doing a little bit of a behind the scenes on who you are and where you are and all that good stuff for the people who don't know you?

[C]

Absolutely. So I am Erin Wissig. I appreciate getting to be on today. I'M so excited to talk to you guys. I am based in the Pacific Northwest, Oregon raised, but I live in California now, Northern California. And I focus on working with established photographers who are ready to kind of step up their systems to the next level. They're ready to expand. They have too much on their plate already and they're just like, I either need a system built more or I need some support. A lot of the times it's both. And that's where I come into the picture and kind of walk beside them and help create that external organization for them. Right. I'm helping them take all those pieces of their business and take it out of their brain so it's not so stressful and put it into an actual action plan that is customized to them. That's a big piece. I don't think we can just walk away with a system across the board for everybody. Everyone's business is very different. And so that's the approach that I take.

[A]

Yeah. Yes. Artists, we tend to want to create our own version. But you do get to a certain point as your business grows and everything else where holding it all in your mind or even, you know, managing it all yourself inside whatever software you're using can become its own bottleneck. And I feel like. Well, I'd be curious to hear what your experience is in terms of like, where photographers are on their journey when they come to the realization that it's time to, to reach out to you.

[C]

You know, I would say it's across the spectrum. I do see a lot of family photographers is a lot of what come to me specifically. And it's usually where they're at the point that their calendar is pretty booked, but they don't have space to do more sessions because of how much back end they're doing. Right. That admin takes a lot of time, a lot of stress. Not to mention they have to be editing. That's not a piece they can really get rid of off of their plate. Right. So clients who come to me who have been usually in business for two to three years minimum, unless they are a brand new photographer who's talked to a seasoned photographer and they tell them, get a system first thing, set up a system so you're not piecemealing it as you go.

[A]

Right.

[C]

And they're usually at the point where they know they need help, but they don't know what that looks like. And then they brainstorm with all the other creatives that they know and they realize it's a consistent problem and they're all trying to figure out what to do. And a big part of it is really sitting down and having a talk with them to figure out where their need is. Some of my clients, it's very much just organizing it better and creating lists and automations and some systems for them to be able to click the buttons and know the other people, they really are ready to offset some of it. They want support, they want to be hands off in some of that admin. They don't want to chase invoices, they don't even want to have to think about that piece. And I would say that is going to be more for my like fully established photographer. She's probably been in business for seven to 10 years, kind of where they are. They have a lot of returning clients and we have two different sets of business kind of going on. New client clients, returning clients. And a lot of the times they also have maybe mentorship programs or courses. They're trying to diversify and do it all, but you can't do it all by yourself. Yeah.

[A]

And every new kind of arm of the Octopus brings its own needs and its own, you know, it's like all the time that you end up spending researching and learning, even just the software that's available for, you know, your new needs can be spent. You know, it's one of those where anybody who works in the wedding industry knows that the difference between the cost of a wedding planner, hiring a wedding planner versus the cost of doing it all yourself, maybe the dollars end up being slightly different, but the amount of time, you know, if you consider the time that you spend in that planning process, doing it yourself versus having that help it, it ends up saving you money in the long run. And I, yeah, so I can totally see how. And I know from personal experience that it was like, it was when I got to that point where I was just like, okay, I now fully understand that this would be better if I had some help. So that's awesome. I love it that there are people out there, you know, providing these services now because I feel like for a long time there really weren't, certainly not specialized in the photography niche. And when we put organization down as one of our themes for this year, your name came up from multiple listeners, chimed in and were like, aaron is who you need to talk to. So I know that this is your zone of genius, which is awesome. Okay, so let's dive in on that process. When you're working with a new photographer, new client to you, tell me a little bit about where you start when it comes to this, like dialing in the client experience from an organization perspective.

[C]

So the first thing I look at is what all are you offering or what do you want to offer? Right. Sometimes it's because they are expanding. So we want to take in a holistic approach before we're getting down to the teeny, tiny details. We're looking at big picture. We're looking at what you're offering, what you want to offer, and who you're offering that to, whether that is returning clients, which is going to be a slightly different process because you already have an established relationship with them, or if we're bringing in new clients. And that is a totally different process because we need to nurture them. They need to understand what it's like to work with them. So for me, it usually starts with a coffee chat, kind of like this podcast where we talk about all of the things and I get a really big idea of their dreams, their hopes and how the business works. And then from there I get an idea of how they work. So I give usually a pretty comprehensive questionnaire of like, do you like checking off boxes? Are you a task person? All of that kind of thing. And then I look at their website. That is the first thing, because most of the time we're talking about bringing in new business. Return clients are great, but we have a website, we pay for SEO, we do all of those things. We want it to be converting for us. So I go to that website and I go, how hard is it for me to book a session with you? How much information is there for me? And I ask, what are the friction points? A lot of the time my clients come to me and they're like, well, I just have an inquiry form up there. That's what I have. They fill out the inquiry form and I respond and I'm like, great. How quickly can you respond? Right. We're talking about how quickly those pieces come. So I always tell people, the first place we're going to start is your bread and butter offering. What is it that you do the most that pays the bills, that's easy to convert, that you know, people want and book? And then we're going to go to that on your website and we're going to walk through it like we're a client. I'm going to click the buttons, I'm going to see what I can do. Can I find your calendar? Is that behind basically what I call a paywall? Do I have to hit an inquiry form in before I can get. When you're even available?

[A]

Right.

[C]

What about Pricing. Is that really clear on your website? And then what is in that email that comes to me immediately after? Is it just a I'll get back to you in 48 hours? Does it have information? The biggest thing that I'm telling people is our attention spans as humans right now is very small.

[A]

Right.

[C]

And we want instant gratification, for better or worse. That is where we currently are. And I don't want my clients to lose out on a potential client compared to somebody else who responded very quickly. So I talk a lot about having an autoresponder on there. If you do have an inquiry form that basically says, like, this is an auto response because I'm out on a sessions with other families like yours and I want to make sure you have this information. And then I tell them to put backlinks in there because as much as I like to think that people are going to read your website that is very clear that has all that information. A lot of the time they don't. They just click that button and they need that information back. So we are looking at clearest path. And one of those things that I'm starting to tell people is have a book. Now, if your CRM allows you the ability to have someone click that button and book because they want to, and you can have your calendar in there and you can have everything that you need, that's where we want it. We want them to have a path of least resistance. And then we want to have an inquiry form for those people who need to be nurtured just a little bit more. Okay. And then. Oh, sorry.

[A]

No, I'm going to interrupt you there because I feel like I love this because I'm all about eliminating friction when it comes to that. And I know that time is one of the biggest ones. And I'm always like, when they reach out, you have to like jump on that immediately because it's like they maybe they're going to hire a photographer no matter what. But right now they are thinking about it. They are, you know, they're motivated, whatever. Like, this is the ideal time. So on the one hand, I'm with you. Like, I want them to just go into my calendar, book a time, pay me my session fee, and like, bada bing, bada boom. But I know that there are a lot of people out there listening who are like, I need to talk to somebody before I am, you know, willing to let them book with me. Basically, I want to make sure that they're the right kind of client. I want to make sure that they Understand what the pricing is that they're getting into. You know, if it's like a session fee now, but then later they have to buy something else. Even if that's plastered in red ink all over my website, I want to make sure that they understand that. So how do you work with your photography clients? Because it often is, you know, maybe if it's a mini session or something like that, it's easy to just figure out like, this is how I can auto book these or, you know, have people self book. But how do you get around that for people who are looking at bigger investment, you know, wanting to establish fit, that sort of thing.

[C]

So the way that I tell them that is that book now button would change to book a call right now rather than booking a booking file to. To say, okay, I'm gonna move forward and just have that session. Right. If you need more qualifiers, if you are doing higher price points or maybe you're in the wedding industry, obviously that's not gonna necessarily be a book now button. Right. But we want something that takes friction away to get in front of them. So for me, that would be a call to action there. Instead of a book now, it would be book a set. Like a call with me. Let's talk about it, pick my brain. And then in that I would have qualifiers, I would be getting information immediately upfront so that, you know, going into that call already kind of know if they're a good fit or not. Yeah, right. If. If they've checked things that like it's super budget and you know, you're not a budget photographer. Right. I would get as many qualifying pieces as I can going into that. And that way, you know, using that call, you are nurturing, or you are kind of selecting them out and you maybe are referring them to someone who's earlier in their journey or that they align with better. That's usually how I get around that. Again, it's we want to get. Get them in. And so whatever that piece is in your business, that's what you want to have.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

And an inquiry button doesn't always do that. Like a contact form for people, they think like, oh, now I have to wait. It's a contact form. They may get back to me. This gives them an action step.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I love that. And I actually personally use the book a call option for exactly that reason. Because I feel like by the time when they say I want to book a call, even though it's, you know, there's no, like they're not booking a session there's no payment for that. There is like a date on their calendar when they're going to come back and I can send them reminders. And you're totally right. Like after they pick a date, then I can ask a series of questions that they answer so that I go into that call knowing exactly what's going on. So. Okay, amazing. I was just curious as to what your thought on that is. Okay, so once you've got somebody's website experience that sort of how organized is the process? It's kind of a first impression. First impressions are lasting kind of a thing. Once you've got that dialed in, what's the, what's kind of the next step in the process?

[C]

Next step is going to be what comes to them after they've done that part. So this is a little bit more internal. This is going to work within your CRM or whatever you are using at this point. I would hope you're using a CRM, whatever CRM that is. There are so many tools and abilities in that that if you are still trying to do this by a text message and email, this is my moment to say bless you. You need to invest in a CRM. Right. Like for your own sanity. That is just something that needs to happen. So at that point we start to create the client journey on that side. So again, I'm a big proponent of sending an automated message that goes out and I'm really big on making sure that in our process we have a pipeline for each type of offering so that our verbiage really matches what we're offering. You know, if you're doing a family session versus a newborn, if you're a wedding person and you do elopements versus the big huge, you know, gala style weddings, we really want to be speaking to that in the correct language. And then also in a lot of these programs in your cmrs, you can build booking files and all of the different things and bring in your photography. That is my other piece for photographers. If you can't be using the beautiful photos that you are taking in your stuff, that is going to. Your clients look at a different platform because they've done all of this work for beautiful branding that's going to help continue to nurture people through your process and you want to be able to Showcase that right 100%. So we're going to create those emails and we're going to really sit down there and decide what you need. Do you do questionnaires? How many questionnaires do you send? Multiple. Do they book with multiple Payments. Do you like invoicing versus auto pay? We're kind of looking at all of those details and then we're creating what that journey looks like in a way that is easy for clients and not overwhelming. I'm also a big proponent of making sure it's your language and it works for you. There's a lot of templates out there. A lot of people are very much like, just buy the template. And I'm like, well, you need it to sound like you though, right? So we spend a lot of time crafting. I kind of create a structure for them and they're given. This is email one that's going to go out two, three. And this is what it's associated with. And then we really create what needs to go in there. Tips that I would recommend. There is backlinks to your website too. If you have guides and resources and blogs that you've done right, include goes in there for your clients to easily access so they don't have to go find it on their own. And that becomes part of the email and part of the journey.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And then. Oh, go ahead.

[A]

No, I was gonna say. And bringing that back to this concept of external organization and someone's impression of how well oiled the machine of your business is, which again is not gonna be something you could pull all of your clients and say, how important is it to you that I have like a well oiled machine of a business? And most of them are going to say, oh, I don't care. But on a sub, sort of like a subliminal level, they are noticing when you are demonstrating like, this is not the first time that I have handled this question. This is not the first time that I've thought about how this is going to go. And when you have things like backlinks to blog posts or guides written out for, you know, some sort of not just like what to wear in general, but like what to wear in the fall in, you know, when it's chilly outside or whatever that then says to those people, even if they don't end up clicking and reading that some people will. But so many people are just seeing like, yep, this person knows what they're doing. We're in good hands. And that trust is so important all the way through as you create the experience for the client. So I love that.

[C]

And we also, you know, if you're like me and I, book us. I'm going to go look for that stuff on Pinterest and I would, you know, you want them going to your things. Yeah, Instead, I did a photo session in France when we were there visiting. And one of the reasons I booked with the people that I booked with is because they, like, guided me through it. Yeah, we've never been to France before. We didn't know what was happening. And their whole process was like, hold your hand on location and, and gave us pictures and options and a feel of what it would all be. They made it such a warm, welcoming experience that I had no problem putting money down to go have a photo session with someone in another country.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And that's what I want my clients to bring. Like, we're wrapping them in a comfort. Sometimes this is a really big ex, like investment for people and we need to recognize that and nurture it.

[A]

Absolutely. And I do agree with you 100% that the more confident they feel in the process, the less the. I mean, money is always a thing. Right? Budget is budget. But people's budgets tend to stretch if they feel confident and shrink if they are. Like, I'm not sure that this person knows what I want, so.

[C]

And I think that in this piece, this is usually where I'm telling people we're taking a lot of the mental stress off in this step. A lot of the times if my clients already have like their system in place, they're still recreating every template. They're not. They haven't created it in a template form that can just be easily used over and over again. So they're having to constantly go in and update it. And basically they're customizing a booking file for every client who comes in, even if they're doing the same type of session. And that is time consuming and that like, weighs on your brain and you're like, oh, I need to do that. Have I done it in a reasonable time frame? So here we're taking a lot of that future time and we're creating it so that if you do have to tweak it, it's like minuscule tweaks. But the hope is that we don't have to go in there and tweak it every time it's already set up and ready to go for that type of session. All your add ons, everything that you want to offer them. The other piece here that I find is a reoccurring theme with my clients is a lot of them are not using booking calendars yet. Okay. So a lot of them are going by like, oh, they want a session on a Saturday. Let's go back and forth and try and figure out a Saturday that works.

[A]

Right.

[C]

For both of us. And at the right time. And that it can consume hours. Like, I have actually looked back at, like, communications and like, you spent three weeks with this client trying to find a date and time that worked for both of you. So I'm a huge proponent of have a booking calendar available for your clients, even if you have a note in there that's like, if you don't see one that aligns with your schedule, let.

[A]

Me know and talk reach.

[C]

But it takes down so much friction. No one loves having to do the back and forth of when a date is available. It's not fun for anyone. So having that booking calendar. And it can be overwhelming because they're like, well, but I shoot with sunset and I need the one hour before and the fit. There are ways to create that calendar that will not be super stressful for you, I promise.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So I think that that is a big piece that, again, would save a lot of time. And I tell them somewhere in the process, we'll figure out where it's most aligned to put it in for them to be picking from a calendar.

[A]

Yeah. And I do feel like that's one of those things that the further we get in calendar software being sort of a ubiquitous thing in the world, the more it becomes something that people expect and can be annoyed by if they're having to do the back and forth. So I agree. It's really important.

[C]

I think it shows a level of professional.

[A]

Right.

[C]

It's just. We're just kind of taking it up to the next level. The back and forth on text. With a returning client that, like, you love and you've worked with for 10 years, they probably aren't going to care. In fact, they're probably the one who texted you because they still have your cell phone number. But for a new client who's coming in, having that clarity and, like, the ability to look and see and it allows them to kind of plan out. Right. They can talk to their partners and grandparents or look at their dates and figure out something without being overwhelmed.

[A]

Yeah. Yep. Nope. All the good reasons. And it is a little overwhelming on the. On the service provider side to say, like, how far in advance do I really know my own calendar? And what if something comes up? All of those things can be handled. You know, every individual that you are reaching out to is an individual. So you, you know, if they book a session and then you realize you have a conflict, you can always go to them and say, oh, I'm so sorry. You know, can we look at other dates but to just get that date on the calendar in the first place kind of breaks that barrier.

[C]

I have some clients who very much in their calendar put that this is like a placeholder.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

They're like, you know, we will adjust as we get closer based off of weather or, you know, sunset times. They kind of just like put the general time in there and then they shift it as needed, especially depending on what the location is. Right. And then I have other people who work with me and I support, like on a monthly support basis and I go in quarterly and I pull all those sunset times and I create all the sessions and I put it in their calendar for them.

[A]

Right.

[C]

So there's lots of different ways to. And again, it's what meets your process. You don't have to just be like, well, everybody's doing it this way. So I'm just going to put out all these dates and times. You can open it a month at a time.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Right. There's lots of different ways to do it.

[A]

Yeah. And if you are doing that, I guess with a month at a time or really any period of time, if you do feel nervous that by saying, here are the available dates, you might be scaring some people off who have conflicting availability. Put that sentence in there about if you don't see anything, you know, reach out to me and we can work on finding a time. But I agree that nine times out of 10, it's going to just save so much time and headache to get it out on a. On a calendar.

[C]

And I, I will also one last piece, tell people that I have found, in my experience with working with my clients, don't put too many times on that calendar. A lot of the times people just want to like, open the whole day. Right. They're like, well, I'm free. Pick some options. And then I'm like, you can add in as you book, but that can also be really overwhelming for people. It's actually the reverse. Like, they think the more they have available, the more likely people are to book. And it is actually the opposite.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Really curate it to a certain number that are your ey ideal sessions and then plug in a couple more if you want to fill that day completely rather than just opening everything up.

[A]

Yeah. I think there are some calendar software options that allow you to do that. Like you can say, I'm available this whole day, but they'll only show X number of spots, which goes to show. I mean, those calendar software companies know what they're doing and that, you know, that's a bit of psychology that you should definitely incorporate. So that's great.

[C]

I will say a lot of the CRMs now also have their own schedulers built in.

[A]

Right.

[C]

So that is also an ease again when you're looking at a system that works for you, finding one that has as much integrated as possible so that you're not having to pull from a bunch of different platforms.

[A]

Yeah, so good. Okay, so we've got somebody, you know, they've come through the booking process, they've booked, they have been nurtured along that process. What else is there to do?

[C]

Now we're going to automate it and I do not want you. I know you guys just heard automate and you're like, oh, AI Erin, not human, robotic. I'm going to lose touch with my people and I. Part of my whole thing is relationship and automation does not equal robot automation is a process that's going to save you some time, still has your personality in it. And I am a huge proponent of telling people it's automated. That is also how we help keep that human connection. Right. They know you're one person, they know that you're servicing all of these other people. And so here we're going to talk about all of those emails that we put in, all of those processes, all those touch points. How do we make it the least amount of time and the least amount of effort on your part? And that doesn't mean you don't touch those pieces. Right. In a lot of these systems, you can choose to just have stuff like go out without having to approve it, or you can set up settings that are like, great. I now have this in a workflow and it's scheduled to go out 10 days before the session. They're going to get that questionnaire. But I have had a couple of communications and I want to put a custom line in there specifically for their session. You can set it so that it has to be approved. You can edit that email just a little bit, but it's a full template. You already have everything in there. You're just doing one line. You're not recreating it all over again. And so we're kind of creating a timeline, if you will, for your sessions. And we're scheduling everything in there and we're deciding what that looks like and what feels comfortable for you. If you're working with an assistant, that's the other thing you can look at, is you can build out your systems that are. Certain emails are coming from them, certain emails are coming from you and build it out that way there's lots of different ways to kind of set that up to your comfort level. I have some photographers who are like I don't even want to worry about is very cut and dry. Send it, make it happen. The only thing that I want to customize is that day before, right. Because I'm dropping a pin for location for them. I'm going to have a weather upd in there, maybe I'm bringing them coffee because that's something I like to do. So I'm going to grab their coffee order and then the rest can just go out. And then I have other photographers who are very hands on and they want to be able to just add a line into those emails or whatever that piece is and they want to visually see it, they just want to make sure that nothing is off, they didn't change anything. And so they always are approving, they're taking a look at it and they're making sure it works through. Yeah. The really cool part of automations though is that in this we can be pulling that information and sending it to other systems that we need down the line. So specifically in Honeybook, which I work in a lot, we now have the ability to add stuff to Flodesk to put them on our mailing list and we can put them in segments. So if they're a maternity person, we're cultivating them for a newborn session down the line. Right. So there's pieces in there as well that instead of after a session having your task list of like I need to add them here and did I do this and did I do that? It's just automatically built in. Right. Again we're taking off the heavy brain weight of always thinking for those 150 or 300 sessions here. You don't want to be holding all that in the back of your mind.

[A]

Because if you are holding all of that in the back of your mind you will drop several things like that is just the plain truth of it, no matter how organized you are. I think that, you know, there is something to be said for recognizing the limitations of being a busy human in the world. Even if you consider yourself to be pretty organized. And once you recognize that that's where you are able to implement those systems so that you're not dropping balls all over the place.

[C]

And I find with most of my clients where they feel the biggest relief is follow up. So maybe a client hasn't finished a booking file, right? They have a date but they haven't like fully completed the next thing that they need to do or you had that inquiry and you have like they've been manually following up. Right. Like hey, are you still interested? Hey, they're chasing it. Right. And that takes time and effort. And so by creating a nurture sequence there within our follow up in our automations so that it's just kind of sending it out and moving it down your pipeline that you're keeping in order to know where people are in the chain, you can slowly move them automatically without wasting your energy. Right. We'd rather you be spending your time and effort on the booked client while nurturing the people, but we don't want you spending hours and hours chasing a cold lead.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So when it gets cold, we're gonna put them into that category. We're gonna nurture them into an email sequence that hopefully they'll come back and book with you in the future. But I don't want you wasting energy on that.

[A]

And I love that you bring that specific example up where you are following up with, you know, somebody who's maybe ghosting you or whatever. Because I think that we end up really taxing ourselves emotionally. Especially if you're like I need to book, you know, X number of clients this quarter or whatever or you talked to that person or did some Instagram stalking of them and you were like, oh, I really, really want to book with this person. When you sit down to write those follow up emails, even if you have templates for them, you tend to overthink them. Right. You get, you're too invest. I feel like that ends up coming across. Or you might talk yourself out of sending a follow up because you're like, well I don't want to annoy them and whatever. When that is happening automatically you've put the work in ahead of time. When you're clear headed, clear eyed, not feeling desperate or you know, whatever. So you know that the emails are good, they're going out on a schedule that you've thought about and put some effort into and then you just let it do its thing. I feel like that is such a good way to both book more work, you know, book more clients and prevent that burnout that comes when you are constantly like questioning yourself or questioning your process. So especially when there are things in the process that you don't love, putting a system or like an organized workflow in place to get you through that as sort of quickly and mindlessly as possible is it's like a business saver.

[C]

We call it emotionally painless. Yes. Right. Like what did I do wrong? What about my art didn't they, like, because it's. It's part of your heart. Right. What could I have done better? And we are really doing it with intention. Right. When we've set up those emails and we know kind of what they're moving through, this is how many I feel comfortable with them getting. We're also using some marketing psychology in there, right. Like, we're timing them in the time frame that we know will help convert hurt or not. We're including a magic email in there that basically is like, no worries. I'm gonna archive your project at this point because I haven't heard back from you. And then sometimes people are like, oh, my gosh, no, don't do that. I really didn't want to book with you. I just got busy. Right, but you're intentionally moving them along, and we know what the end goal is. And so that also takes pressure off. Right. That intentionality.

[A]

So good.

[C]

The other piece do see in there is invoice. No one likes asking for people to pay money. And it really takes, like, makes it feel like it's taking you out of that relationship piece of your business. And so that is the other piece that I'm really big on making sure we automate. If you have the ability to do auto pay in your booking files, setting that up so you're not having to chase it as much. But also then when you do have to send those emails, same thing. We're taking the stress off. We're making it. A lot of the times, if they are working with an assistant, we're making it come from me or whoever their assistant is so that they're like, it's not me the bad guy about those invoices getting paid. You know, they get to have a bad guy that they made on. And then I'm also a big proponent in your systems. A lot of those are automated. Like, they're like, not in an email that you would create. There's like a little button in the back end, and they're like, this is automatically gonna, like, you toggle it on and off.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

What a lot of people don't know is you can go in there and edit those toggled on and off emails. And that's where I recommend you go in and just like, like add a little customized note so it sounds a little bit more like you. And that also seems to help convert people to pay it rather than it feeling like it just came from a robot.

[A]

Right, right, right, right. I think if. Especially subject lines, if they sound like, you know, an automated Notification people like, it's a really easy one to skip over. So that's good. My husband was a wedding photographer back in the day, and he used to. When people would. Would inquire with him and he would give them his pricing and whatever, and they would come back and say, is there any way, you know, do you do a package that's shorter and, you know, whatever. People negotiating for price. And his line was always, I wish I could. My accountant tells me I'm not allowed to. And it was just totally his way of, like, creating a bad guy. So I love that.

[C]

Yep. I'm always. I'm usually the bad guy when it comes to your date is going to have to be released because you haven't completed X, Y, and Z, and we've given you three opportunities and. Or money is due. And I love that. I always tell them, or sometimes I'll have clients be like, hey, Erin, I'm going to send this as you. Is it okay? Because they are being the bad guy. Right. Like, they're putting a firm boundary in place. And I'm like, yeah, use me as the scapegoat. Right. Like, bye. Yeah. My chief sanity officer says I can't do that. I have too many sessions. Or like, unfortunately, we do have to charge for the four sets of grandparents that are coming. Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I always tell them I'm happy to be the bad guy. And sometimes that means even making up someone in your business.

[A]

Right.

[C]

That is the bad guy.

[A]

Yeah. And as soon as you've made that person up, you're then going to want to go hire that person because it really is easier to have somebody else be the bad guy.

[C]

And there's also a separation there.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Right. Like, I care about my clients and I want to nurture their business, but I am not as emotionally attached to exactly how to word it. Right. And it makes a difference.

[A]

And Sidebar. I. I feel like I should make the disclaimer that this is actually not being a bad guy, this is running a business. And so, like, just, you know, we can all laugh about it because it does feel that way sometimes. But the truth is, good policies are part of creating a good experience for your clients. And clients who aren't trying to take advantage of, you know that. So when they see, here's the policy, this is the way that, you know, I do it. And here's why. Anyone who wants to work with someone who is going to, you know, work for them and all that sort of stuff, they appreciate those things because they help them as well. So that's awesome.

[C]

And if you have a client who's pushing back on all those boundaries, that's probably not a client you want to have.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Come back. Right. Because they're not respecting your time and then they're not respecting your other clients either, who are all working within that system that you have created.

[A]

Yeah. So good. Okay, so if somebody is sort of at the beginning of this journey organizing their process. You talked about the website audit, which I love. Are there any other sort of steps or, or actually, I guess I would broaden that question to be for people who do have some of this built, but they feel like there are some sticky points. What are your recommendations for tackling that? This is a good time of year. A lot of people are sort of working on their businesses instead of as much in their businesses. So I'd love to hear your tips.

[C]

So, yeah, we're going to start with that website, even for our more established people, and just kind of do a quick run through of it. Make sure that all of those pieces are working for you. Maybe something triggered in your mind if we've been talking and you're like, oh, that would be a really good idea. The other piece that I'm really going to say is, where is your inquiry form coming from? Is that coming from your website? Like, is it one that your website created or is it already connected to your CRM? It should be coming from your CRM. It should be one you've created there and then you've put on your website. So it's capturing everything. That is actually a surprising one that I realize not everybody knows. So that would be where I would be looking. Embedding as much as you can from your CRM into your website. And reverse is the best thing. So I'd be looking at those backlinks. I would be looking at where you do feel you have holes, right? What are there certain sessions that you dread booking not because you don't like photographing them, but because you know the paperwork is heavy or you have to craft a lot of emails. That's where I would start. And I wouldn't get overwhelmed. I would pick one spot, one offering, right. And play with it and see how it fits. And then the other piece would be so you don't have squirrel moments, which happens to the best of us, where we go and then we get overwhelmed and we're like, what about this? What about that? I would take that one offering that you feel like is not as strong. And I would take a piece of paper or your phone if You're a phone person and I would write out the steps in your mind of what you are doing for those already because you're probably having to do it over and over and over again. And I want you to write it all out and then you're going to take that and translate it. But do it for one. Don't look at all of your offerings. Don't do a full website audit. Pick one spot start, test it, see if that process that you've put in place actually feels comfortable to you and use it in that one session offering.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

For a month and test it while you're not super busy. Don't try and implement this the week before fall photo sessions start or wedding season start or whatever it is for your own sanity. Test it with maybe your mini sessions or a return client flow, because those are going to be the most generous people if something doesn't go exactly how you want. And then my other suggestion would be if you have a other creative who you know you mentor with or you talk to, ask them to do it for you. Ask them to go and give you a little feedback on that particular thing. It's always sometimes easier to give them a link and be like, can you tell me if you saw any holes?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Did something not feel aligned? Soundboard it so you get it out of your own head?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Of course, like stepping back and getting, getting a second opinion is always very helpful in these situations. And I want to just reiterate this idea of starting with one, starting with like your primary session type or something like that, because I think that it is very easy to get overwhelmed with all of the different variations and everything else. But once you've written out a step by step, you know, end to end workflow for one type of session, almost every other session is going to be similar. It's going to have similar pieces. The timing may be a little bit different, the wording of an email might be a little bit different. There might be, you know, an extra step here and less a step here or whatever. But it's almost like you're creating a template for your workflows that you can then kind of copy and tweak. And if you're starting with your bread and butter type of session, that's usually the one that's most robust to begin with because you're most familiar with it. So I think that's a great tip.

[C]

Yeah, it's one of the things that we all get fatigued when we're seeing the same thing over and over again. Right. And so to kind of put second eyes on it. And then you can also see if you're missing something when you do it that way. Right. Like you can see all of those steps and be like, oh, I always have to go back and add this because I Forget about it 100%. I usually start with people's bread and butter session and then it just kind of branches out. Right. If we're doing a newborn, we have a couple more emails in there. Sure.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Because we're checking due dates and hospital. And maybe you do a round like a full year session where they get three sessions. Right. And so then we're building on that. But it's usually not a whole new automation. We're taking those three that we already did, newborn, maternity, family, and we're just merging them together or we're stacking them. And so the biggest thing I tell people is sit in what works for you. If you're a do it yourself person, do it yourself. If that feels really overwhelming, you can find someone who you can pick their brain. That doesn't always mean you have to hire that person, but there's lots of wonderful information out there. And it's one of the reasons I'm trying to do podcasts like this is I want to give everybody that fun information because it can be really overwhelming.

[A]

And to that end, you have a very generous offer that you were telling me about before we hit record and I wanted to make sure that you talked a little bit about that here as well.

[C]

Sure. So I offer a coffee chat and it's a free coffee chat. You come on for 30 minutes with me, we just chit chat, we talk about your business, we talk about your pain points, we talk about what you're hoping to have. And then I will give you some tips right there and then and there. Whether you decide to move forward with me to build out a system or maybe you're looking for VA support. It's really my passion, especially this year, to empower photographers to make system changes because know what a breath of fresh air it brings into their business. And so just having some time for with someone who's in it every day. Right. Something that might really be hard for you. I can give you some easy thoughts and suggestions or best practices of what I'm seeing. So I would love to have some coffee chats with everybody.

[A]

Amazing. That's such a, as I said, generous offer because like we were just saying before, just getting sort of a second opinion or an expert opinion on what's going on, where the sticky points are just talking it out can be so super helpful. So you guys who are listening, I encourage you to take action on that. So tell everybody where they are able to find you, connect with you and potentially sign up for those coffee chats.

[C]

Absolutely. So it's pretty easy. It's my name, it's aaronwissig.com I have an entire resource page on there. So it's going to have my free coffee chat on there, blog posts, kind of the people I work with and some some tools and resources. If you're thinking and don't want to be overwhelmed about what systems to use, we've got some information on there for you. So that's the easiest way to get me. And I have a calendar right there and you'll be able to see dates and times to book it. Best practices I'm trying to practice what I preach.

[A]

Yes, exactly. It's always harder. The cobbler's children have no shoes. But we will link that in the show notes and of course in the darkroom. There's all that information and more. But Erin, thank you so much for joining me today. This was lovely and exactly what I wanted to like, hear and have validated for everybody because this is such an important piece of your business and when it's postponed or neglected, it really, really shows. So thank you for doing the important work that you're doing and thanks for coming on the show and chatting with us.

[C]

Well, thank you so much for having me. This is so fun.

[A]

Yay.

[C]

Have a great day.

[A]

Well, that's it for this week's episode.

[B]

Of this Can't Be that Hard. I'll be back same time, same place next week. In the meantime, you can find more information about this episode along with all the relevant links, notes and [e-mail] learn. If you like the podcast, be sure.

[A]

To hit the subscribe button.

[B]

Even better, share the love by leaving a review in itunes. And as always, thanks so much for joining me. I hope you have a fantastic week.