The Next Miata Might Be a Toyota? EV Tax Credit Killed, End of Cheap Electric Cars?

Summary

THIS CAR POD! — Episode Summary

Podcast: THIS CAR POD! with Doug DeMuro & Friends
Episode: The Next Miata Might Be a Toyota? EV Tax Credit Killed, End of Cheap Electric Cars?
Date: October 3, 2025
Hosts: Doug DeMuro (A), Kenan (B), Filippo (C)

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Overview

This episode dives deep into a rapidly shifting automotive landscape: the extinction of iconic luxury sedans, the surprising new direction for beloved sports cars like the Miata, the ripple effects of ending federal EV incentives, the perils and excitement of used car buying, plus lively community Q&A. The vibe is irreverent and comically candid, with plenty of debate, market insights, and car culture banter.

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Key Topics & Discussions

1. The Death of the Lexus LS & the Big Luxury Sedan (00:07–03:35)

• LS Discontinued: The Lexus LS, long a symbol of status and innovation, is being discontinued after declining sales.
  • Sales fell from ~26,000 in 2005 to just over 6,000 in 2024 ([01:04])
  • The segment is "a trickle. The market is no longer interested in these cars." – Doug ([01:28])
• Industry Trend: Other flagships like Jaguar XJ and possibly Audi A8 are also vanishing, leaving mainly the Mercedes S-Class.
• Used LS Value: Surprisingly affordable and undervalued on the used market—"These are incredibly impressive cars to own and operate... they're so cheap." – Doug ([02:56–03:15])

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2. Mazda Miata’s Future: Toyota Partnership Rumors (03:46–07:13)

• Joint Sports Car Project: Reports claim Mazda and Toyota will jointly engineer the next-gen Miata and Toyota GR86/BRZ equivalent.
  • "Mazda is developing the car. Toyota will sell it." – Filippo ([04:10])
• Will Subaru Exit? Subaru’s increasing distance from the BRZ is noted, with price hikes and trims cut ([04:56–05:37]).
• Platform Philosophy: Discussion of coupe vs. convertible strategies, with speculation the Miata will remain a convertible while Toyota variant serves as coupe ([06:36–06:47]).
• Quote: "These are two of the greatest driving, affordable, lightweight, rear wheel drive cars in existence. Might as well put them together." – Doug ([06:50])
• Market Satire: Brief jokes about obscure badge-engineering possibilities (e.g., Daihatsu).

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3. EV & Hybrid News: Dead Models and the Federal Incentive Fallout

A. Acura ZDX Killed After One Year (07:13–09:54)

• The ZDX, Acura’s EV SUV (co-developed with GM’s Blazer EV), dies quickly—also blamed on weak demand and expiring EV incentives.
• "Acura has announced that the ZDX, no limit of sale. You're going to see some of these EVs come off the market with the end of the federal incentive..." – Doug ([07:53])
• Acura and Honda’s lackluster EV strategy critiqued ("I'm just disappointed at the... approach they're taking to these new segments." – Doug [08:52])

B. Porsche Cayenne EV Debut (10:33–15:14)

• Mixed excitement over Porsche’s new Cayenne EV—impressive design, massive screen technology, and 1,000+ horsepower but skepticism about sales and pricing.
• Unique tech: Inductive charging pad ("The only other car... is the McLaren Speedtail. I think that's amazing." – Kenan [13:37])
• "For a luxury SUV, an EV is a perfectly fine thing... Porsche, the Taycan was excellent. The Macan EV is excellent." – Doug ([14:46–15:14])

C. Jaguar Land Rover Cyberattack and Bailout (16:41–18:48)

• JLR suffered a crippling ransomware attack, halted production, and was bailed out by the UK government.
• Commentary on supply chains & supplier vulnerability.
• Jokes about going "back to typewriters and smoking in offices," lampooning tech’s downsides ([18:21]).

D. End of Federal EV Incentive & Its Fallout (19:30–25:41)

• As of October 1, 2025, the $7,500 federal EV tax credit has ended, dramatically impacting affordable EV sales.
• Automakers like Hyundai are offering temporary matching incentives, but industry effects loom large: "This is going to have a real effect on the lesser priced EVs... EV sales, which are already milk toast this year." – Doug ([22:57])
• Political finger-pointing over the incentive’s end, with California’s governor blaming GM’s Mary Barra ([21:09]).
• Insight: "By not creating the incentive, the automakers are not incentivized to innovate in this space... in 20 years, you might see Chinese cars on these streets." – Doug ([24:29])
• Ford CEO Jim Farley’s reaction and ongoing policy lobbying covered ([24:29]).

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4. Market Musings & Buying Experiences (28:51–39:55)

• Countach Reliability Epiphany: Doug proclaims his Lamborghini Countach his favorite and most reliable car—bucking stereotypes.
  • "For all you Countach haters... this is the longest I have ever gone with any of my cars ever in my life between services. 655 days." – Doug ([29:45])
• Porsche 993 Turbo Search: Doug details the difficulties and due diligence required in buying high-value used cars—odometer rollbacks, transparency, and value ([36:39–41:21]).
  • "It's just annoying to buy a car at the level I want... I like to really do a lot of diligence if I can." – Doug ([39:08])
  • Importance of auction platforms for seller transparency.

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5. Cars & Bids Market Report (44:59–68:07)

• Ferrari California Bargain: A 45k-mile Ferrari California recently sold for $65k, now "the Mondial of the modern world"—ugly when new, but a deal today ([51:43–54:05]).
• E60 M5 SMG Auction: Ultra-low-mile BMW E60 M5 SMG bids to $74k but doesn’t meet reserve; discussion of rarity/value vs. actual desirability ([54:39–57:43]).
• Unassuming Swaps: Grand Cherokee Laredo sleeper with Hemi and blower is a favorite; praised for not being over-modded ([58:36–61:43]).
• BMW Z3M Roadster & Coupe: Deep dive into why oddball performance models (especially in unique colors) remain undervalued—and why that could change ([62:41–68:07]).
  • "This is a very ugly color. And the interior is even... horrible. However, if I were buying one of these, this is the only color I would consider." – Doug ([63:26])
• Viper Generations & Values: The trio debates Viper values and retroactively renames their generations for clarity/fun ([69:16–70:27]).

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6. Quick Debates: Porsche 718 Value, Enthusiast Car Buying Logic (44:59–51:09)

• The 718 Boxster/Cayman’s reputation for a turbo-four "unfairly bad rap." The hosts argue it’s a bargain and still a great drive, and debate depreciation curves vs. older naturally-aspirated models ([44:59–51:09]).
• "I think the 718 Boxster has gotten an unfairly bad rap... This car still drives really well. It is an excellent car to drive." – Doug ([47:03])

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7. Community Q&A Highlights (71:29–89:36)

• Carrera GT "Widowmaker" Fears: Doug explains why his wife didn’t worry about legendary vehicles like the CGT, and why tech has changed their character ([71:50–74:01]).
• Automatics vs. Manuals: Buying the "wrong" transmission—when is it forgivable? The pod crew is pretty forgiving depending on use case ([80:48–81:55]).
• If-You-Know-You-Know Cars: Lotus Carlton, V70R, Saab 900 Turbo, and more are cited as "enthusiasts' insiders" ([82:30–84:37]).
• Normal-to-Enthusiast Car Timeline: The group concludes it typically takes 20–25 years for a mundane car to become an enthusiast collectible (think: 1990s Camry now being "cool" at Radwood) ([85:52–88:43]).
  • "When I was a kid, this generation of Camry was hated by everybody... Now, they've become beloved." – Doug ([86:03])

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Notable Quotes & Timestamp Highlights

• "These are two of the greatest driving, affordable, lightweight, rear wheel drive cars in existence. Might as well put them together." — Doug ([06:50])
• "This is going to have a real effect on the lesser priced EVs... EV sales, which are already milquetoast this year." — Doug ([22:57])
• "For all you Countach haters... this is the longest I have ever gone with any of my cars ever in my life between services. 655 days." — Doug ([29:45])
• "I think the 718 Boxster has gotten an unfairly bad rap... This car still drives really well. It is an excellent car to drive." — Doug ([47:03])
• "It's just annoying to buy a car at the level I want... I like to really do a lot of diligence if I can." — Doug ([39:08])
• "Ugly cars get a lot cheaper as they depreciate, or ugly cars get a lot prettier as they depreciate." — Doug ([52:39])
• "When I was a kid, this generation of Camry was hated by everybody... now, they've become beloved." — Doug ([86:03])

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Key Timestamps

• 00:07: Start of News — Lexus LS discontinued
• 03:46: Miata and Toyota sports car joint project
• 07:13: Acura ZDX and Blazer EV partnership flop
• 10:33: Porsche Cayenne EV reveal discussion
• 16:41: JLR cyberattack & bailout
• 19:30: End of federal EV tax credit impact
• 28:51: Cars & Bids cars, Countach reliability, personal car stories
• 44:59: Market report: Ferrari California, M5 auction, hidden gems
• 51:09: Porsche 718 vs 981 and market values
• 62:41: BMW Z3M Roadster and Coupe values
• 71:29: Community Q&A

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a vibrant snapshot of today's car world: big changes, the death of old luxuries, electrification pushbacks, new enthusiast bargains, and the quirks of living and breathing car culture. Doug and his crew don’t shy away from their opinions, and between stats, laughs, and market savvy, offer a must-listen for anyone passionate about the auto scene—or just keeping up with what’s next.

For further conversation, Cars & Bids’ community Q&A delivers classic car nerdery, spicy debates, and practical buying wisdom, all in the podcast's signature blend of wit, knowledge, and sarcasm.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign. Hello and welcome to this car pod.

[B]

I'm Kenan.

[C]

I'm Filippo.

[A]

And there's a lot to cover today. Let's start with the news. The big news of the week. The Lexus LS is dead.

[C]

Yeah. Big news of the week, huh?

[A]

Let me tell you something. It was the Jaguar XJ first. Okay, well, because big full size luxury.

[C]

Sedans for the Jaguar XJ first, they.

[A]

Came for the Jaguar XJ Full size luxury sedans used to be a big deal.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Like when I was a kid, there was no luxury SUVs, which obviously all these buyers are buying. Now. They're buying Range Rovers and all that. There was none of that. And a big luxury sedan was how you told people that like you had made it.

[B]

That was the flagship.

[A]

It was the flagship of the brand. And it was the flagship. It was like what people wanted to be seen in flagship of status. A big body Mercedes Princess Diana. Like if you were a mover and a shaker, you had a full size luxury sedan.

[C]

Sure.

[A]

The XJ is gone. Jaguar doesn't make one anymore.

[C]

Nope.

[A]

The Lexus ls, which was a segment pioneer really in a lot of ways, that's now gone. The Audi A8 is next. Mark.

[C]

How many Lexus LS's do you think they sold last year?

[A]

20,000. I'm sorry, 11,000.

[C]

I'm sorry, 6123 in the U.S. wow. By the way, the data was the best. I don't have it before 2005. This is from Good Card.

[A]

What was it? What was it in 05?

[C]

And 05 was 26,000.

[A]

What was it in 08? That was the new.

[C]

In 08 was 20,000, in 07 was 35,000.

[A]

Okay, so that year 10%. 10% of it's a trickle. The market is no longer interested in these cars. And it's crazy to imagine. Like it's funny because we've watched some of these automakers pull out of some of these once popular segments. Right. The Ford Fusion and the Chevy Malibu, like midsize sedans.

[C]

Sad but true.

[A]

And what happens when that happens is it leaves behind only the esteemed players. Minivans. Right. People back down to minivans. And only left the Odyssey and the Chrysler. And that's going to happen here too. And it will leave. There will always be an S Class, but there will not always be the fringe cars like the not, you know.

[B]

Do you think there will always be a seven series?

[A]

I really don't think BMW should keep putting money into that car. I Don't know why they do it. I don't understand heritage.

[B]

I think that might be the only.

[A]

They're still probably making money on it. And they still sell in Europe. Whereas this car doesn't have a Europe to sell to.

[C]

And China. Keep China in mind. Large sedans do well there. I don't think Lexus has any presence there.

[A]

Yeah but it's gone. That's the end.

[C]

There's a 2026 like final.

[A]

They're doing a final run out model special edition to commemorate the end. If they really cared they would do it with the same wheels as the oldie.

[B]

Yeah, that actually be pretty cool. Stronger than the 1990s version.

[A]

You know what the irony it is.

[C]

The heritage edition by the way.

[A]

You know what the irony is? I truly mean this. The best LS is the newest speaker grills. I love this car. It's just that the market doesn't exist for it anymore. The market just doesn't exist for it anymore.

[C]

But if you want to buy a used I gotta. They are for you to do it.

[A]

Dude go on the site. We've sold some of that LS500 type in LS space. 500. They're so cheap or LS with it. Yeah, 33 GS. This was a year ago. 42. 5. These are. These are incredibly impressive cars to own and operate. Click on that one. Look at that interior.

[C]

I know if it has the speaker grills that are so cool. It's a beautiful interior.

[A]

Remember how they had folded cloth on the door panels? I'm telling you this is a really nice car that's going to last forever. And we're selling them in the 30s which also speaks to the market demand.

[C]

One of come out 2018.

[A]

Yeah. So it's also.

[C]

We're also on year seven of the life cycle time that it was time.

[A]

To either redesign or end. And we weren't going to redesign.

[C]

Plus Toyota has the crown.

[A]

They got the crown and that really does it all. Okay, speaking of dead things. Next news story. Ah, this isn't a dead thing. We got a bunch of dead news.

[C]

Okay. There was a report this week that for the next generation Mazamiata the neighborhood and the Next generation Scion Toyota 86 FRS whatever they call it now they Mazda and Toyota are going to partner on this next generation two seat sports car.

[A]

The Mazda Miata will be a Toyota GR86BRZ Scion FRS.

[C]

So the way that this report was framed was basically that GR Toyota will will partner with Mazda on it. But really Mazda is Developing the car. Toyota will sell it. The GR like management has made really clear that they are capable of building their own cars. They are capable of developing their own cars. But that they also think there's more room for some partnerships.

[A]

Well, and Toyota has a stake in Mazda.

[C]

Sounds right.

[A]

Toyota has Toyota stake in Mazda.

[C]

Toyota has a stake in everything. They own Subaru. It's no.

[A]

They own. They own part of Mazda. Toyota owns. Gimme it. On AI 5.1%. There is a reason to have a partnership. It makes sense. Here's one question I have. Does this mean we're done with brz? Are we just admitting it's over?

[C]

Let's about that for a second.

[A]

Hey now. Hey now.

[B]

Nice.

[C]

This is what dreams are made of.

[A]

Don't dream it's over.

[C]

All right. It'll be sad. Are you aware that the starting in 2026, the BRZ, the base BRZ is $5,000 more than the base GR86? And are you aware that the base BRZ starting in 2026 is more expensive than a base Mustang?

[A]

Okay, Mustang MSRP is 34 for an EcoBoost. The BRZ starts at 35.

[C]

8.

[A]

Yeah, so a Mustang is cheaper than a BRZ.

[C]

But what's the content differences? Subaru is cut premium trim, which is their base trim and it's only going to have limited. And the other one, I got to.

[A]

Tell you though, like that's not competitive.

[C]

Anymore base to base.

[A]

I might prefer a brz.

[C]

But wouldn't you spend. If you were going for the base model, wouldn't you spend five grand less and just get.

[A]

Probably. But okay, fine, like 35 grand is my number. Base Mustang or a really nice brz. The BRZ drives really well, but it's.

[C]

Also such a smaller, less powerful vehicle.

[A]

Well, I would get a GR86 right for 30 because it's becoming clear to me that Subaru maybe doesn't want to be a part of this anymore.

[C]

It's also their only non all wheel drive car.

[A]

They should make a Daihatsu.

[C]

They should.

[A]

Because Toyota owns all those brands or has a stake. I don't want to say owns has a stake in Mazda, Subaru and Daihatsu. They should do a Daihatsu version, right?

[B]

With their great sporting lineage, they definitely should add to it.

[C]

And where are they selling the Daihatsu version? That matters to us.

[A]

It matters to us. First off, the whole world matters to us. I want to say hello to our readers in Senegal Watchers.

[B]

Bonjour. Yeah.

[A]

Look at that 993 Turbo model.

[B]

We'll come back to it.

[C]

But regardless, the next generation. I expected the next generation Mazda Miata will be a true successor to this Mazda miata. Just the GR86 will, I think feel different than it does right now because it'll be built in part.

[A]

I'm cool with this. These cars make sense to pair up. Obviously the big difference, and I'm curious how they'll address this is the coupe convertible thing. Now the Supra is a coupe and the Z4 is a convertible. So maybe that's just what they'll do again.

[C]

Right. Who knows, Maybe the Toyota version will be better.

[A]

It's interesting and it makes sense and I'm here for it. These are two of the greatest driving, affordable, lightweight, rear wheel drive cars in existence. Although, you know, might as well put them together.

[C]

You know what? Nobody cared about the Fiat 124, which was also Miata.

[A]

Well, it was uglier with a worse powertrain.

[B]

Yeah, well, that's that.

[A]

And it had that horrible body line on the front fender.

[B]

It did have that. It was a rough.

[A]

Give us the next thing. This is a dead news story. The Acura ZDX is dead.

[C]

Been around for like a year. How's it dead already?

[A]

I want to say something about this. Yeah, it came out. We like barely covered its arrival a year ago.

[C]

Well, why, why would we have? Who cares?

[B]

Yeah, I think we moved very quickly through it. If we're on it.

[A]

It's actually kind of funny because it only was only on sale for one model year. The new ZDX was even a bigger failure than the old zdx, which is hard to believe because the old ZDX was like famously a failure. It's like, it's like known as like a famous automotive failure. Even though it looks exactly like a.

[C]

Model Y, you see a lot of ZDXs near Acura dealerships in places where low lease deals are attractive.

[A]

Yeah, I mean that was the only way they could get rid of these was low lease deals. And today, which we'll cover in a second, the EV incentive, the federal EV incentive is gone. And not coincidentally, Acura has announced that the ZDX no limit of sale. You're going to see some of these EVs come off the market with the end of the federal incentive because the only way some of these cars were selling was incentivized lease deals. And the automaker themselves cannot afford to prop up leases at that level.

[C]

I think the interesting thing here is obviously the zdx, for people that don't know is based on the Blazer Evolution. The Blazer EV is also. I forgot about that. It's also. The Honda Prologue is also Blazer ev. So Acura, they didn't invest that much effort in building this. No, I mean, they restyled it. The interior and exterior are different. I think the interior still uses GM's infotainment in part.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[C]

So they didn't go all in on building an ev. No. It'll be interesting to see what their takeaway is. Is it about the EV market? Is it about not having a competitive entrant in the EV market? Is it. Maybe we shouldn't use a Blazer.

[A]

Eve told me straight up that Prologue is named that because it's like the prologue to what will be great EVs in the future.

[C]

The ZDX. What will be a great EV in the.

[A]

Just disappointed. This is another example of my Honda rant from a few weeks ago. I'm just disappointed at the, at the Pro, at the level, at the approach they're taking to these new segments. They. They just seem so committed to their core that they're afraid to try anything or do anything. And they've been developing this EV with Panasonic.

[C]

They have the, the Affila, which is Sony Afila. The, The. The Sony Afila is a Honda Sony collaboration.

[A]

But it's taken years.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

We're all waiting. Prologue is going to be epilogue here in a minute.

[B]

Nice, nice, nice.

[C]

We're thinking about nowhere to go after that.

[A]

Yeah. No, I don't know. It's an interesting. It is an interesting situation. You're going to see some of these EVs coming off the market after the EV incentive goes away. This is just the first casualty.

[C]

The ZDF looks good, though.

[A]

It looks good. It is good. It is.

[C]

The Blazer EV is a good.

[A]

It's just too expensive and not particularly compelling and too expensive for the range and performance that it offers. It's hard to justify without significant incentives. And Acura was throwing in a bunch of cash on it, as was the federal government. Now some of it's gone away. Acura can't fill the rest of the hole. The car is gone.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

We will not miss it.

[C]

Wow. One model we won't miss.

[A]

And I'll tell you, this is going to become like the Blackwood, like we're going to in 10 years. We're going to be like, I saw a ZDX today.

[B]

There are a lot.

[C]

That's a great point.

[B]

There are a lot of those. That's such A good point.

[C]

Speaking of, when was the last time you saw an original ZDX that's not that old a car?

[A]

Rarely. No, it was like 9, 10, 11.

[C]

Rarely. They're probably a better car.

[A]

You'd freak out.

[C]

I would.

[A]

Wow. You remember the Honda version?

[C]

The Honda. The Accord cross door was not related to zdx.

[A]

All right, go.

[C]

I get why you think that, but you know better.

[A]

Another car that's dead. No, I'm kidding. This is very much alive.

[B]

It's very much alive.

[C]

For now.

[B]

The new Cayenne ev. This is pretty exciting, I have to say.

[A]

Is it?

[C]

We've been talking about how unexcited we are about the Cayenne ev.

[A]

It's cool.

[C]

I made you both watch a video, but no, I've not watched a video.

[A]

It's cool.

[B]

It's cool.

[A]

There's this German fella who's YouTube. Not me, by the way.

[C]

It's a well known German publication, by the way.

[A]

Yeah, it goes auto build or auto whatever. They go, I don't participate in German language.

[C]

Okay, can I help us out?

[A]

I only know about Berlin. Oh, and Frankfurt and Cologne.

[B]

Okay. He can name cities. That's the extent of his German language ability.

[C]

I was hoping he would start with Cologne and just go through the engines.

[A]

But this thing looks cool as hell. Do you have the interior picture?

[B]

Yes, the. So the big talking point about the car is the screen in the middle, which to my understanding, you can have a couple different options. This is the full screen. You can have less screen if you want. Specifically, he mentioned American buyers to be interested in that. But it has a bend in it, it flows. The screen is literally curved and it's oled, which is awesome. So I think that is so cool.

[A]

It's so cool. It is so legitimate. Also, I think the car looks good. They haven't revealed photos. I don't understand this.

[C]

I don't understand how this video exists.

[A]

It's like a few videos.

[C]

Autogeopholt is like a German.

[A]

Like there are a few videos already about it and, and, and, but there's not like good press photos yet.

[B]

Like this is the picture.

[A]

The previous photo doesn't really show how the car looks. I can tell you though, I'm kind of surprised. It looks nice. And this is the first to. Well, I'm sorry.

[C]

Porsche designer.

[A]

No, no, I think the Cayenne has always looked nice. Truly. Even the 03. But I say I'm surprised because since 11, the Cayenne has basically looked the same. They've done redesigns that to me looked like facelifts, if we're going to really call it what it is. And honestly, it's gotten uglier with each iteration. This one looks different and it looks good.

[C]

The rear end I like.

[A]

The rear end is cool. The side profile is cool. The performance powertrain must be insane.

[B]

It was crazy. So this was the turbo model that he reviewed and it had, you know, 1,000 horsepower and 1,005 Newton meters of torque.

[C]

Porsche's going to a thousand.

[A]

Damn.

[B]

That's what I remember. That's what memory.

[A]

Take that.

[B]

But it's a zero to 60 in less than three or it's like. Yeah, less than three seconds.

[C]

Yeah, you should be fast because I'm.

[B]

Trying to remember because it was all.

[A]

In kilometers per hour, the base model, 500 horsepower. The turbo will exceed thousand horsepower.

[B]

It was nice. He hit it on the autobahn. It was wild.

[A]

Zero to 60 in under three seconds.

[C]

Are we excited about the, the Cayenne electric now?

[A]

No, it's not going to sell well. I mean, so well. And it's going to be radically overpriced and it's going to be a total flop. But I'm, I'm more into it than I was and I'll tell you this, I loved the Makani V. It's a great car. I think it, the volume expectations are too high. I think there's a lot of mistakes around that car. However, it drove fantastically and I bet this will be even better.

[C]

And it'll be a great luxury SUV too, because Porsche makes a good luxury suv.

[B]

I mean, like I said, even I liked it. Like they had some manual controls in here, which I like for basic things. And like I, I also thought the other thing to talk about is that it has inductive charging. What car other than it does. Yes, yes, it has inductive charging. A huge pad that you can drive.

[C]

Over and it will charge it slowly.

[B]

Well, but it has it. I mean, the only other car I could. The only other car I could think of that has this is the McLaren speed. So I think that's amazing that what will be a mass produced car will.

[A]

Have what I've always been told from every automaker I've asked the question to is the car requires too much charging and it can't be done. There's heat, there's loss, it doesn't work like your phone. The car has so much more energy requirements than your phone that inductive charging doesn't work. And maybe it will. I'm very curious to See how it works. It'll be hot, I bet. Oh, yeah.

[B]

Well, yes. And if the Germans feel that it can be done, then there must be something to it. But I think that that's one of the big talking points about the car.

[C]

Can I say something that Kenan, you said before we started filming today, which was you were excited by the configurability of the menus.

[B]

Yes. So on the menus you could.

[C]

I don't want to know more. I just wanted people to know that you specifically said that.

[B]

I thought it was cool because like this little section tilts and so if you are like in maps or whatever, you can slide up and choose a bunch of different things that you can adjust down here, climbing controls or whatever. And from the top also you can do the same thing.

[C]

I've never thought that to the day when Kenan was excited about.

[A]

I'm excited.

[B]

The integration of it is really nice. And the fact, again, I just love.

[A]

That I'm excited about Solar Car. We've talked on this podcast before about how we are car enthusiasts and are not the biggest fan of EVs in the enthusiast space. However, for a luxury vehicle, for a luxury suv, an EV is a perfectly fine thing. And Porsche, the Taycan was excellent. The Makani V is excellent. The market is not necessarily there, but the cars have been great. And I think this looks like a fantastic iteration. Very curious to see how it actually is. 27 they say is the model year, so we'll see it next year.

[B]

I also like that it's slightly longer than the gas version. I thought that was kind of an interesting.

[A]

But it's third row dreams.

[C]

Third row dreams. Oh wow. There's supposed to be a larger SUV from Porsche coming.

[A]

Yeah, supposedly. We'll see.

[B]

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[A]

Next news story, please.

[C]

We spoke a couple weeks ago about how Jaguar Land Ro is in the middle of this like, it, nightmare situation. They were hacked, held for ransom. They had to shut down all of their UK factories. They couldn't pay any suppliers. They just. We have good news. We have two pieces of good news.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

One is that last week the UK government backstopped $2 billion in loans, 1.5 billion pounds to $2 billion. Just about in loans for, for Jaguar Land Land Rover. They might be seeking 2 billion additional dollars from private banks. This was money from private bank backed up by the government. So they have money now. They have run out of money because they couldn't build cars. Also, after being shut down since August 29th or August 30th, they were able to restart some of their computer systems and they could pay their suppliers once again.

[A]

Huh.

[C]

Which is good because otherwise the suppliers would all have gone out of business because they need the revenue every month to, you know, pay employees.

[A]

Okay, so they're going to take the money from this loan and use it to pay suppliers that are not currently supplying.

[C]

Well, no, they are still supplying. Just there's no factories going. There's no cars going through the factory.

[B]

They had to send.

[A]

I would argue then that they're not.

[C]

Currently supplying the UK government. The British government's biggest concern was that a bunch of smaller companies in Britain would not get paid, would not be able to pay their employees and would have like a cascading effect. Because obviously automakers rely heavily on other suppliers. They're not actually a vertically integrated, with a couple of exceptions. And so they rely heavily on those and they need to pay those for the parts that they receive.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Or for other R and D work that's happening or whatever it may be. They've also, by the way, restarted production partially.

[A]

Oh, really?

[C]

Yep.

[A]

So maybe this is the end of that story. You know what this teaches us?

[C]

And all they do is owe a couple billion dollars to the government.

[A]

This teaches us no computers. Go back to typewriters and smoking in offices.

[B]

Go back to the Mad Men era.

[A]

Yeah, no computers. What do you think of that?

[C]

I am not in favor of that. We Run a company that is pretty driven by computers.

[A]

Oh, I forgot, I forgot. This is the problem with this podcast. I'm not able to freely think because Cars and Bids is always there's. It's always up, you know, I also.

[C]

Mean we are on computers. People are watching this on their computer.

[A]

To the computerless age. And I'm saying that I'm giving that great opinion. But Cars and Bids comes in and says, no, no, we need computers to function.

[B]

You want to build stuff like we did with the Countach, we got to.

[A]

Make a pod where we can just say what we think.

[C]

Then how are people going to get it if they're anti computer?

[B]

They'll come, we'll stand in the square and they'll go, here, here, here.

[A]

Yeah, the podcast from the town square. What an idea. The state of California has ruled is like the Target parking lot slash the grocery store parking lots.

[C]

Right. Modern town square.

[A]

The modern town square. Okay, that's interesting. It'll be interesting to see how that goes. Of course. This is the biggest news story of the week. Glad we put it seventh. What?

[C]

A federal EV incentive is gone. We're filming this on the. On Wednesday, October 1st.

[A]

Wednesday, October 1st. It is D Day.

[C]

No, no, yesterday. Yeah, I, I don't. Yes.

[A]

Maybe if you manufacture bad electric cars. This is D day in general.

[C]

Okay, Here. Here's where things get agreed. So there's. For a long time, the federal government has been offering incentives of up to $7,500 to. For towards purchases of EV fees. Yeah, these were income tested. So you had. If you were making above a certain amount of money, you could not. You would not qualify. But leases which are not sold to you are sold to the leasing company did qualify. And there were a bunch of. There were a bunch of rules. Right. The vehicle had to be made in the US or with substantial US Parts.

[A]

There were a bunch of rules. This is one of the great stories, how they cheated their way around this. The Biden administration decided no more blanket. No more blanket EV tax credit.

[C]

It.

[A]

We're just going to do it only for people who make less than a certain amount of money, because that's what the libs do. So that's what they did. But then they realized the lease company can take the full tax credit and apply it to the lease. And so that's. Anybody who bought EVs before, which was nobody. Then nobody bought EVs then it only made sense to lease them because then you could still get the tax credit no matter how much money you made, because the Leasing company was the buyer of the vehicle. And this is the problem with legislation. We should have none of it. No legislation, no computers, no computer legislation like that.

[C]

That's a good, good platform. But the incentive is dead. There are a few states that are still doing their own state version. Colorado's one. California is not. And the governor of California has explicitly said that this is all Mary Baro, the CEO of GM's. GM CEO's fault.

[A]

He's Newsom said it was Mary Barra's fault that the EV incentive went away.

[C]

His ration. Yes. His rationale is Mary Barra specifically petitioned heavily to have.

[A]

Oh yeah.

[C]

Against there being fuel economy restrictions. And he is tying that to that which is fair and also not fair. Doesn't matter. But here's where it gets interesting. So there's a few automakers that are trying different things to still sell EVs. By the way, EV sales in September and in Q3, generally incredibly strong. Well, yeah, few companies have reported numbers and their EV sales. Hyundai, Kia is one of them. Ford is one of them. Gm, I think, is also reported. Their numbers are up. Notable.

[A]

The thing that's important to remember with those cars specifically is that those cars are especially dependent on this deal. So the Ioniq 5, which is a $40,000 car, right? The 75. This. Yeah. Cheap ones. Cheap ones are like high 30s, low 40s, $7,500. Lease incentive is 20% of the value of that car. That's a big deal. Rivian R1s, it's not as important to people.

[C]

So that's where it gets interesting. So let's use Ionic 5 as an example. Hyundai announced today, the day after the incentive end, that they will continue their own 70$500 incentive for a month. And then in 2026, prices fall by as much as $10,000. So they are lowering Ioniq 5 prices by about the amount of the incentive.

[A]

Interesting.

[C]

Or if not more, which is interesting.

[A]

What about Mach E?

[C]

I don't think they care that much about Mach E sales anymore. I'm just kind of done with that. Yeah, but the other automakers are trying different things. GM has taken an approach in the last week which has basically been, hey, dealership, you can buy the car before the month ends and then sell it to somebody else later. They've been quite explicit about it.

[A]

In other words, they can take the incentive.

[C]

I mean, they can take incentive. Pestle. But I do think we'll see. Tesla, by the way, has increased their lease prices because the incentive no longer applies. That makes sense. It'll be interesting to see what ultimately.

[A]

This is going to have a real effect on the lesser priced EVs. EVs, EV sales, which are already milquetoast this year, generally they are milk toast.

[C]

Anything but milk toast.

[A]

They're the highest they've ever been up. Yeah, but they're barely rising. I looked at the numbers the other day in Q2, they were down.

[C]

Q3, boy are they up.

[A]

Well, I bet you Q4 won't be so strong.

[C]

Q4 is likely to be a little weak, but automakers are, I think on the low price ones know that prices, how they're competing. Hyundai knows that they're selling Ionic Leasing Ionic Fives instead of a Model Y because the price is competitive. And so they will take losses to keep selling them.

[A]

But think about what that, what you're saying. I mean that's not a long term business strategy. They already have developed the car, it's already on sale. They have to kind of keep going with it some way that they can. They probably have commitments to Korean unions or suppliers or whatever. They're going to make this a minor number of cars. They got to get the cars out, even if it's profitless. But do you see a future for these cars? Who the hell knows? Without the. The incentive was an important component of these cars succeeding. And this is an example. We've been talking about this a lot on this pod. By not creating the incentive, the automakers are not incentivized to innovate in this space. And as a result, other brand, other companies, other countries that have these incentives, cars will innovate more. Yeah, it's the 1970s. It's not that. I mean it's like that. I know that the current government has a political stance against EVs and I'm not exactly an EV. I don't own one. But we want our country and our companies of our country to innovate and we have been allowing them to with this. And it's, this is a sad, I think it's sad.

[C]

Jim Farley is being perhaps most vocal in interviews. He had an interview with the Verge earlier this week where he basically said like we, it's okay that the customer level, consumer level, EV incentive is going away, but we need that. We're working really closely with the Trump administration to find ways to continue some of the other incentives because there are incentives to build in the US Right. Which Hyundai and, and Ford have benefited from greatly. And they would need those incentives to continue to invest any money in EVs. Right.

[A]

You know, I get that there's a political bluster to this whole thing. Like, oh, we want our gas cars back. Screw EVs. That's what the liberals drive. But, like, you will see where this is going in 10 or 15 or 20 years. We all know that this is a reality of the situation. And by not having American companies continue to innovate, you're going to end up with America behind. And in 20 years, you might see Chinese cars on these streets. Like, I mean, the Koreans in 86 when Hyundai showed up, it was a joke. The original xl. No one ever thought it would be competitive. And these people work hard and they develop. And eventually these things started to come up and take bites out of our own US Auto industry. And in some cases they start building here, which is great, but it's just something to consider whenever you talk about, oh, screw EVs. There's more to this than that.

[C]

You can't be purely isolationist.

[A]

Another reason that we shouldn't have legislation. Or maybe I'm saying that we should now. Tough. You figure it out. Do we have any other.

[C]

There's one more story, which is a quick little hit. Ford Mustang. Jim Farley said in that same interview that there are more Mustang, Mustang this, Mustang, not Mustang Mach E. I totally not Mustang Machis.

[A]

He didn't say that.

[C]

I've looked at the data. There are more Mustang sales outside of the US of the current generation Mustang, whatever that one's called. What's it called?

[A]

The new Mustang?

[C]

No, there hasn't.

[A]

We say new Mustang until. Until it's not new anymore.

[C]

There is a new name. There is a name. There are more sold outside of the US Than in the US Than the current generation.

[A]

You know, this is Cologne. Here we are bringing cologne into the.

[C]

Apparently Australia and like Sweden or Finland or something are the largest outside of the US Markets.

[A]

Can I ask you a question? Do you think this is the only picture ever taken in Germany that has a new Mustang and a Supra in it? What the hell are the odds on that?

[C]

Mark 8.

[A]

Yeah, but that makes sense. The Germans don't buy the American or Japanese.

[B]

That's the Nurburgring thing. Yeah, I think you got a pretty good shot.

[A]

Okay, so Farley said that the Mustang is selling more the US Than in. I think he includes the Mach E. You cannot throw a stone in Copenhagen and not hit a Mach E. You cannot walk out of your house in Oslo and not bump into a. I'm not. Not screw around. They're everywhere in those places.

[C]

It was not Fully clarified but additional in that interview. But additional news stories have referred specifically to the S650 Mustang, which is what?

[A]

That one is the S650 and other new Mustang models. Additional news stories from who? Reputable or non reputable?

[C]

Both.

[B]

So I got the Mach E and then the gas powered Mustang.

[A]

We're selling more Mustangs out of the U.S. well, yeah, you're selling Mach Es in Oslo where the purchase price of a mach e is 11.

[B]

People want the American Mustang on the nameplate.

[C]

The quote directly is we're investing a lot of Mustang. I think that people don't get about Mustang, that it's a global car. It's the best selling sports coupe in the world. We outsell Mustang outside of the US Than in the inside the US with.

[A]

Sports coupe, but they're like Mercedes Benz with the GLE coupe. Hey, this car pod, you know, I'm all about value, whether it's my Porsche Carrera GT or a quirky Nissan Murano Cross Cabriolet that makes you do a double take. But today, let's talk about a different kind of asset. Acre Gold. Inflation's hitting harder than a V10 at Redline Gas prices. Parts, even your average car wash is way up. So if you're worried about where to put your money, Acre Gold lets you invest in real 24 karat gold bars starting at just a few bucks a day. It's like buying a classic car that never rusts, never needs repairs and always shines no matter what. The price of gold is up over 40% from last year. 40%. And here's the best part. Acre is easy. Just pure, shiny gold shipped straight to your door. They're really onto something with this. A solid, reliable investment that you can actually hold in your hand and a fun thing to show your trustworthy friends. So head to getacregold.com protect your money, keep it golden. That's getacregold.com all right, now back to this car pod. All right, bring on. We got no more news. Okay? We have a. We gotta talk cars. And I want to talk cars. I got a lot of talk cars today. I got two big stories. Yeah, bring them. Bring the 993.

[C]

We're gonna have some reels that result from this.

[A]

All right, I have two things to say. Kenan, I want you to listen up and listen. Listen very closely.

[C]

I, I heard about this on the podcast last week because I listened. I listened.

[A]

Oh, wow. Did you listen to the part where I said you wouldn't listen?

[C]

Yes, I, but I, it's beautiful to see it in person.

[A]

Okay, we got this 993 Turbo. I'm going to cover that in a second. First, I want to say something. The Countach is back from service.

[B]

There it is.

[A]

It's sitting behind me. And it got an oil change and some fluid flushes and there was a nail in a tire. And so there's minor stuff. Two grand is what it cost that car. Two things. That car is driving beautifully right now. Baba left, did the service here in San Diego. They're up in Miramar or something. Might be Kearney Mesa. No one knows. And it's Miramar. We walk in there, they got 10 miuras. It's incredible. Bob left, did the service. Two grand. The car has never run better. It runs beautifully.

[C]

Is that what having an oil change does? Right?

[A]

Exactly. Here's the thing. For all you Countach, I'm going to say two things. For all you. This is the bomb I'm going to drop today. For all you K people, number all the haters, all the Countach are so unreliable. The time between the last service I did and this service is the longest I have ever gone with any of my cars ever in my life. Between services. 655 days.

[C]

How many miles?

[B]

That's a long time.

[A]

2,000.

[C]

Wow. That's legitimately a lot for a human touch.

[A]

Two. Two years. Two full years.

[B]

A lot of them, you know, a lot of them are serviced. Sit around for a decade and then are serviced again. Some people, it's actually even longer.

[A]

Well, I've been driving mine and I drive it at least once a week and. And that brings me to the big bombshell. I'm going to drop today when I'm prepared to make my favorite car that I own is my K. There it is.

[C]

That's not true.

[B]

It is your best car. You think the Courage is the best. The Countach is your favorite.

[A]

My favorite car that I own is my.

[C]

How long can we hold you to that statement?

[A]

It has evolved over time and is now. I am now for sure on it.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

I love the Carrera GT dearly. I'm not. This is not me announcing I will sell it, although I do. You will someday, I promise. But the Countach is my favorite car that I own. I just love the car. I love how it looks, I love how it drives. I love using it. I love everything about it. When I have it up in my lift and when it comes down, I'm like, oh, man, this is gonna be a good day.

[B]

Well, I can't Believe we're finally aligned. That's always been my favorite car of yours and it is. It is so cool.

[A]

It is just the best car and all this crap. I think one of the things that depresses countach value values and. Which is wonderful, by the way, because I love the fact cheap car. It should be more. But I think one of the things that depresses the values is that there is this reputation for unreliability and the fact that the car drives poorly. My experience has been the exact opposite. You know, the first year I had it, I was like worried every time I took it anywhere. And I was always, what is that noise? What is it? You know. And now I'm into year two. I'm actually into year three already. Never been any problems and there could be, but like the fact that I've already made it two and a half years, like we're doing pretty well and it's just so, so fun to use. It's so. I drive every car in the world. Every car. Right. With the press cars and the cars in the office. And this is just the most fun car.

[B]

I think it hinges on a couple of things. It's fun to use because yours has been so reliable thanks to George Evans, who did the major service on it. And you've had the reliability mods done to the engine. So it is. So it has been reliable. And in fairness, every time I've started it for the summer, it starts so easily every time it is a chance champ. I would trust that car to drive it some distance, actually.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But you know, obviously had it been one that needed service, this experience would be dramatically different.

[A]

Except that because of who I am, I would have paid, you know, sure, I would have paid up if George had told me that it needed Evans in Ohio, greatest Lamborghini mechanic in the world. Unless I'm standing in front of Boba left. The two of them, though, I'm so happy.

[B]

I'm so proud of the best oil changer for.

[A]

He did a good job though. And they did it quick and they were. They were very committed. Wonderful. Obviously, I love Evans dearly. He did $50,000 in service in the car and I bought it. If he had told me it was 150, I would have done it. And you know what? I bet you it would be driving just as well. Like, I just think that this car, this car is extra special in my mind because of its. When I first bought it, I was very uncertain about its upgrades. It has forged pistons, it has a board motor.

[C]

But Bill.

[A]

Yeah, I got a built motor mash. But because of those things, I truly believe the car drives better.

[B]

I. I wouldn't. I would not be surprised if that's the case. So my question then is, is this, is it the Countach specifically or. I mean this is your first older car like with the carburetor.

[A]

I would say because of this car I have started to consider older cars. I've never been an old car guy same. And I've been surprised. I've loved this car so much. I'm not not looking at Daytonas. I'm not not looking at Dinos. I don't have a huge interest in those cars. But My interest is 10x where it used to be. It really is.

[B]

That's so interesting. I suspected it would be after if this car had any were being reliable.

[A]

I got to tell you, I bought this car. I was. I was on Nantucket. It was in the summer. I was not around it. I didn't see it. It was in Canada and I had it shipped here. I didn't see the car for the first month that it was here. There was some work done to it and I showed up to. You were there and I showed up to pick it up from Elite Finish, the shop where I sent it. Shout Out Kevin. I showed up and I drove it home and I thought to myself, this was a mistake. I shouldn't have done that.

[C]

Honest.

[A]

I'm gonna regret this and I'm gonna sell this car in a year and because it's so different from a modern car and it's so different anything I'd used to. But I've gotten used to it and I love it. I have fallen deeply in love and it is my favorite car.

[C]

When's the last time you used second gear?

[A]

I don't use second.

[B]

Just occasionally.

[A]

The synchro in second is notorious. It's. Mine's fine now because it's brand new because Evan's put a new one in. But he'd said to me, he said, doug, he said, doug, when you second gear, only use it when it's warmed up. That's what he said when I. When I took out the car. But the problem is there's no trans temp dial. So I have no idea when it's warmed up. So I just decide, you know what? It's never warmed up. Never going to use it.

[B]

Oh, well, that's not right. You should use it. It's if I use it when the.

[A]

Car gets really warm, like if I've been driving for 2030 minutes. It's obviously warm. I use it.

[B]

Then it's not. It's not that long. Usually after about five minutes or so, it's.

[A]

I don't want to take a risk. I don't want to take a risk. He said the synchros are pretty weak. And so, like he said, it's not like every year you got to replace it, but, like, 10, 15 years, it's gonna need.

[B]

You can tell because it will not want to go into second, but after a while, like, if it. If it feels good going from third to four, like, you can start to use second.

[A]

Oh, you think that's the.

[B]

Well, yeah. Like, I mean, in my. My experience with older cars is like, the Italian ones in particular. On all of them, like that 308 that's sitting behind you, like, it doesn't like second gear, so you go from first to third.

[A]

My 355, I do that with Croatian.

[B]

You do it for just. Just a little bit. Like, it give. I mean, that car, there's so much oil, like, both for. In the sump for the engine and then also for the transmission. It does take longer to warm up, but usually, like, if you're going on a longer drive, like, if you're driving it to cars and coffee, like, it would be.

[A]

Yeah. Warm.

[B]

Like, you could use it then by the time you got there.

[A]

Yeah, I do. I do. By the time I get off the freeway, Rancho Santa Fe, and I'm on that Curry Road. I do use second mile.

[B]

That's. Then you're doing it right. That's exactly right.

[C]

The.

[A]

He makes me want other Lambos. I will say, like, I really like a.

[C]

What?

[A]

Like a newer Mercy stick and a Diablo.

[C]

The three.

[A]

I don't want them. I don't want to be a Lambo guy. I never saw myself as a Lambo guy who wants to be a Lambo guy. But they're just. It's just so. It's such an amazing car.

[B]

It is.

[A]

You're driving it around. You're having an unbelievable experience. You're giving this incredible experience to people around you who are so excited. This is like a life. Like, you talk to adults and they say. I still remember where I was as a kid when I saw Countach on the street.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Know. And like, this is this so cool. It's. It's just cool to be part of it. I love it. My favorite car that I own.

[B]

Well, I'm excited that it has opened the. The back catalog of some of these great, iconic vintage cars to you maybe.

[A]

And it is a very special on that subject. Do you want to. Should we talk about the 993 Turbo situation?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Last week on the Pod I announced very strenuously that I was ready to buy another car. It's been. It's been over two years since I've.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah, it's been over two years since I bought a car. I bought my sequoia like eight, 20 months ago, but I don't really count it daily. It's been over two years since I bought a fun car which was the Countach at the end of 23. I bought it in the summer of 23 and I have for years since then sworn to be off cars. I'm off cars, don't own any one. Last week on the Pod I very strenuously said I was ready. I'm ready to get back on cars and get a 993 Turbo. And I found one and I found a nice one. And then I don't want. I'm not going to get into the particulars yet. This is still ongoing, but not very ongoing. But I found. Found one and the. I've discovered I do a lot of due diligence when I buy a car and I discovered that the odometer had been rolled back and odometer issues is a problem on 993s in general. They all fail. And the question is, can you catch it right away, get it fixed and just keep it climbing or do you roll it back? This particular car had been rolled back.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm not actually opposed to buying a rollback.

[C]

But it changes the value.

[A]

But it changes the value. And I have. We haven't caught up with the seller of the vehicle yet, but I have a suspicion we're not going to be in agreement. Meanwhile, this is a story I haven't told yet on the pod.

[C]

Wow. This is story hour.

[A]

However, six months ago I came to an agreement with a seller dealer on an F40. We agreed on price. You know this whole story.

[B]

Don't act like you don't know.

[A]

We agreed on a price currently for good radio and, and I was ready to do it and a couple days later the dealer backed out of the price they had agreed on.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And both of. And I'm not going to say anything more about either situation. But I will say this. Both of these situations remind me that buying a vehicle is hard unless you use cars. And B.

[C]

Yes, well done.

[A]

But it's annoying.

[C]

It's true.

[A]

It's. It is true. True that 993 Turbo is an interesting case because if it had been on our site you would have posted all these pictures, all these service records which is how I discovered it because there were service records that had mileage in excess of the current odometer. And I know I should have bought that car. It was tuned, it had996 wheels.

[B]

But we could have had so much fun with cold ones putting it back to stock.

[A]

That's so true. With some money this car could have gone back to stock. Well, yeah, more or less.

[B]

More or less.

[A]

I, I just, it's just, it's just annoying to buy a car at the level I want to buy a car at. Like I buy, I will pay up, I will buy car. But I, I make, I like really do a lot of diligence if I can and you know carfax and look carefully at the service records. Like I opened up an Excel document and wrote down all the records and what they did and you know, the years and when and where and I'm looking at plate numbers to determine when the car was sold to this owner and all that.

[B]

And, and, and really honestly on our site, really great sellers will go to the trouble of doing this for you. Like they'll have logs and if they.

[A]

Don'T the comments will suss it out. And that's what would have happened on our site if the car had gone up. And same with that 40 that you know it would have been bid to the value which was the value I agreed to with the dealer and you know that would have been that you.

[C]

Aren'T trying you as a buyer for cars of this caliber are not trying to get a deal.

[A]

Yeah, I'm not trying to get a deal like that.

[C]

You want to play market correct price.

[A]

I don't even care. I'll pay over right. I, I, because, because when I get in my head I want a car I get I like wanna, but like.

[C]

You also want to know about the car. You want to know what you're getting.

[A]

That's the thing that annoyed me about the rollback. It has become clear to me that the seller is the one who rolled the odometer back to the previous car.

[C]

Well that' good.

[A]

He rolled it back to the previous carfax number but didn't take into account.

[C]

Service records that show that had reported CarMax.

[A]

Dude, if you had just, you don't understand like and, and some buyers aren't like this and would have much rather had the lower mile car with the rollback and not known but it's like dude, if you had just not rolled it back, everything would have been better.

[C]

Y.

[A]

You know, like, yeah, the car would have higher mileage, but then I wouldn't have a TMU issue. True mileage unknown. And I'm still interested. I'm still a buyer. But now you got a car with who knows how many miles. A TMU car, it's. It's less valuable than it would have been if you hadn't TR.

[C]

Tried to fake it.

[A]

And it's just so frustrating both to deal with. You understand why some of these sellers don't sell on cars. And I mean this sincerely. And this is not intended to be an ad for cars and bids. You can say about bring a trailer as well. I'll cop to it. You understand why some of these sellers don't want to sell on the auction platforms because the commenters are sophisticated enough that they will point this crap out. And I don't like. I don't like buying cars that are really available. I don't like people looking back at my buy. I like to buy a privately offered car. Yeah, but the auction sites have some real benefit.

[C]

They really do. And also you have a seller that is serious. That a 40 seller.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Clearly not serious with wasting everybody's time.

[A]

Wasting everyone's time, including his own. I lost three hours to that guy and I lost three hours to the 993 guy. Your time valuable, which is.

[B]

Yeah, that's more upsetting than anything else.

[A]

I'm not losing three more hours. Okay.

[C]

Wow. Well, no car for you.

[A]

No, I want a. Listen, I'm going to make the plea again. I want 993 Turbo. I want an Arena 993 Turbo. Turbo. Like this US car. If you have one.

[B]

No rollbacks.

[A]

I don't even care if it has a rollback. If it has a rollback. Disclose so we can come to the right number. I want a nine. A US car, 993 Turbo. I'm ready to buy mid miles.

[B]

Just. Yeah, we just keep focusing here.

[C]

Here. Can I transition this?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

If you have a993.

[A]

Dude.

[C]

If you do, come to Ken and I at next week at road Atlanta where we'll be at IMSA's Petite Le Mans race with a paddock cars and coffee.

[A]

Thank you, folks. This is the most exciting event of the year. I am so sad I'm not going to be there. If by some ungodly reason IMSA allows us to continue this partnership next year, I will come to this event.

[B]

I hope so. Then we can go walking in Atlanta.

[A]

After Atlanta's my favorite place.

[C]

To Atlanta.

[A]

No, but it's close enough. Atlanta's my favorite place. Filippo and Kenan are going to be at road Atlanta, which is. Which is in Braselton, home of Panama Oz.

[C]

Really?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I didn't know that.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

No. Somebody's coming with a pan. That makes sense now.

[A]

There you go.

[B]

Y didn't have to drive.

[C]

We're gonna have a car corral like a cars and coffee. The entirety of the 10 hour race in the paddock. So you'll be set up. If you are bringing your car because you've put us in a community, we've invited you. You will be set up there next to all the race teams. If you're just coming to the race, come say hi to us. Come hang out in space. We will have copy coffee. We'll have Kenan.

[A]

We'll have Filippo. Kennen and coffee.

[C]

Kennen and coffee.

[A]

This is a great event. This is going to be so much fun. You can go and see Kenan in person. You can ask him about Emily, his girlfriend in person and her crt, which.

[B]

Will not be it.

[A]

Her crt. She's got a CRT screen.

[C]

I will also say in general, IMSA race is very fun to attend.

[A]

Can I ask you a question? Two questions.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

This is a 12 hour race, right?

[C]

10 hours.

[A]

Are you gonna.

[C]

30Pm Am I gonna be the entirety of the race? Yeah.

[A]

Or 10? 10.

[C]

You are, of course.

[A]

No way. Really?

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Oh, wow. That is crazy.

[C]

What do you mean, really?

[A]

Second. And I'm. And I'm.

[C]

I'll be there for longer than 10 hours.

[A]

This is me just hoping. Will you wear your giraffe shirt?

[C]

Well, think about it, will you please? You can.

[A]

You can wear other cars and bids merch. Like you can put a sticker on your shirt or something.

[C]

I'll think about it. Okay.

[A]

He'll wear cars and bids merch. Anyway, the point is you should attend this event. Road Atlanta. IMSA Petite Le Mans. The ultimate event on the IMSA calendar, as I recall.

[B]

And the Cars and bids one finale. This is our second IMSA event. Yeah, I'm really excited about this.

[C]

Okay, well, some great cars.

[A]

Are you ready for your next cool car? Sell your enthusiast car on cars and Bids. Trading in your car to dealers means you aren't getting market value for your car, leaving you with less cash for your next fun car. Just look at our recent sales of these cool cars compared to current trade in value. This is a trade in offer and this was the cars and bids result. This is a Trade in offer and this was the cars and bids result. This is the trade in offer and this is the cars and bids result. Get started now on carsandbids.com sell on cars and bids and join the best community to sell your enthusiast car. Okay, final talk cars segment is from Filippo. Filippo's going to talk to us about a car he's not going to to purchase. Go.

[C]

Okay. I'm interested in buying a car again. I'm, I'm. I'm back on. On buying cars is and I've been thinking a lot about boxers. Right. Cuz the boxer is a good card. We Ken and I filmed a video a while ago on a Boxer Spider. A 91 Boxer Spider versus a 981 base. And we kind of decided the 91 base wasn't quite as powerful as we wanted. But a great platform and a great chassis and a great car.

[B]

Love the platform.

[C]

Love the platform. So I've started considering 981 Boxster SS GTSS. But I also realized that 718 boxers are the same price or cheaper than a 981.

[A]

And it's a good motor. People say it's not a flat six but that's the question, right?

[C]

So like is it as bad is they're much cheaper for a compare car? Like are they undervalued or is the fact that it's not a flat six that it's that turbo flat four legitimately a detractor?

[A]

I think that you won't notice.

[C]

Well I, I do notice things about cars, turns out.

[A]

But I also think that no matter what you say, you will end up with a cheap hatchback. This is your M.O. when you bought. Think about this. Think about this. When you bought your E class wagon, we were hearing all these stories. You ended up with a cheap hatchback.

[C]

When I bought my E class wagon. I bought an E class wagon.

[A]

When you bought. Yeah, but we heard all these stories about what you wanted.

[C]

An E class wagon.

[A]

That's what I wanted. 500 a Barth. You were looking at this. Look at that.

[C]

I bought that convertible.

[A]

You ended up with a cheap hatchback.

[C]

Now there's no hatch.

[A]

Yeah, but it's a hatch hatch. Now then last time C 7997 and.

[B]

He ended up with a cheap hat.

[A]

A cheap hatch.

[C]

A 718 Cayman is a cheap hatchback.

[A]

I will tell you this, if you're even barking up this tree you're gonna end up with a tip 987. And then you'd be like this was A disappointment.

[C]

Well, a DOT two is rare.

[A]

That too would be good, actually.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

No, here's the thing. Go back to that I legit Caymans are a good example. A 981K. No, go back two pages.

[A]

718.

[C]

Yes, go back. Okay. This 718 Cayman, it's a base Cayman, 50 grand. A 981 base Cayman with that mile, it's also.

[B]

You will never spend 50 grand on car.

[A]

It's laughable.

[B]

It's hilarious.

[A]

It's laughable.

[C]

I. I have considering it. But should I consider a 718 or should I not?

[A]

I'm going to speak to the general public as opposed to F, who I do not think will ever buy a car of this nature. I think the 718 Boxster has gotten an unfairly bad wrap because of the turbo four cylinder. I think that it's like the Ferrari the 458. The F8 comes with its turbo engine and people are like, oh, it's not as good. Well, folks, you're lucky it's not electric. Like, you know, like, actually you're in a pretty good shape here. And, and, and I think that this is a similar situation. This car still drives really well. It is an excellent car to drive. It's just not. Yeah, it's not a flat six, but on from a driving experience, I don't really notice it all that much. I think the turbo engine is great. I think they did a great job engineering it. Of course, rather have a GTS4 or a GT4, but huge. Everyone would rather have the nicer version. You know, I'd rather have a Pagani Zonda than a Honda Accord.

[C]

Like.

[B]

Right. That is the nicer version of Accord.

[C]

Famously stair stepped up the F roadster.

[A]

I just think these cars don't. I. I think for a general person there's like this talk when you go to a car event, oh, the 718 is a four cylinder. It's not as good. I think that's said by people who haven't driven them. It's just. It's good.

[C]

This is legitimately interesting to hear because there's more, it's more power than a 981. The chassis, by all accounts is phenomen. They're cheaper than a 981. They've depreciated a lot. The question is, will they depreciate? You kind of know what to expect from Porsche depreciation. The 718 seem to be appreciating much more substantially than that. Will that continue or will it taper?

[B]

Well, some would argue then if the 981 is depreciating less and it's going to hold its value more, that you should buy the 981.

[C]

Unless you think that the 718 is at the bottom of its appreciation.

[A]

Well, there's another component here which is what do they do next? Because I think 718 depreciation curve stops if they do go full electric.

[C]

But they aren't.

[A]

Well, maybe. See, they said they were going to go full electric on some versions. So if the Boxster becomes full electric next time, except for the GT4 and the Boxster Spider and the top versions, that probably will have a beneficial effect.

[C]

On the 718 and even more so on the 90.

[A]

You get my point. Because this will be then the last gas powered one.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Even if they do a GT4Rs next or a Spider RS next with a gas engine, the base cars, this will have been the end of the line.

[B]

It's just hard to buy a sports car with four cylinders that didn't have it originally. Like the Lotus of land was a four cylinder. Had a four cylinder. The like there are a number of. Like the Miata four cylinder always had.

[C]

Four cylinder with power. To be fair, these are not power.

[A]

It's 350 horses. Right?

[C]

Real power.

[B]

Yeah, but then it sounds like a four cylinder. Just the sound is a part of big power.

[A]

I'm going to just say something here. The little flat six. Not exactly. Not exactly a career gt.

[B]

You know what I mean? Well, I didn't say it was a career GT but sounds better than a pedestrian four cylinder, like 2.7 liter flats thing. When we drove that base like I thought the sound wasn't one of my complaints. I thought it sounded it needed an exhaust. Like it sounded like a Porsche. But I don't necessarily like a Subaru.

[A]

Yeah, but like. Yeah, but it does it neither car I'm buying for the sound. If I want to sound, I get a GT350 and walk away.

[B]

Well, but that's part of the sports car experience is, is the sound that's.

[A]

What you want to get. I don't anybody looking at one of these cars buy a GT350. But if you don't want a GT350 which you should, should. The 718s are becoming really good deals.

[B]

So Filippo, what color will your, your Golf R be?

[C]

Okay, there is one interesting. There's one interesting thing about these, which is no. 1 we sell so we auction. So few regular 718s.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

We box Spiders as frequently as regular ones. And that's true across like the enthusiast sites.

[A]

Enthusiasts say this. I think that's it. I hate. Which is also true market by the way. I don't want to make anybody feel bad about out there. In this case sometimes I'm willing to make people feel bad but in this case because I don't believe it to be true and it shouldn't be true. But this turned out not to be a car that was bought by enthusiasts. It turned out to be a car that was bought by someone who wanted a Porsche who wanted to spec out a car who was maybe getting older wouldn't have the chance again. It was not a car that ended up mostly in enthusiast hands. I think that is unfair. It's like the California. I think it is unfair. I think it is a very good enthusiast car. However, yes, it has ended up what you see on the enthusiasts on these sites is generally enthusiasts selling to enthusiasts. And this car has not made its way.

[C]

I'll still consider it. I'll think about it.

[A]

It is a great car and it is becoming a bargain. And that leads us to our market report which is brought to you by the 993turbo.

[C]

Especially if you have a car.

[A]

I want one. Find me, Send me a nine. I want a 993 Turbo Arena Red.

[C]

The market report us.

[A]

We want to talk about. Yeah, us. I don't want any euro crap. I don't if the VIN has a Z in it. I don't want anything to do with that.

[B]

That's such a deep cut.

[C]

But.

[A]

Okay. The market report. We're talking about these getting cheap. Let's talk California.

[B]

Yes. So we recently sold a Ferrari California with no reserve on cars and bids. It was this one and it sold for $65,000.

[A]

Star Wheels in Wisconsin with the base.

[B]

The early Star wheels. Yes. Now this car did have some issues, admittedly.

[A]

What were they Go down.

[B]

It was. What was it?

[C]

It's actually not a thing that there's a check engine light for the catalytic converter.

[A]

There is manual tires cel. The front suspension is leaking. There's wear on the infotainment screen. That's not the bit scratches on wheels credits. No problem. I mean so the driver's seat doesn't function.

[C]

It needs some work.

[A]

How many miles?

[B]

And it did have miles. 45,000 for a Ferrari.

[A]

That's.

[B]

But my point is that 65 the floor now has gotten to 65 grand for. For a dual clutch V8 powered relatively modern Ferrari.

[A]

Say what you Will these cars drive great?

[B]

They do.

[A]

It's the 718 thing again. These cars drive amazingly right. And.

[B]

And I understand there's some questions about the way, like, the rear end, in particular looks and stuff like that, but they do drive well.

[A]

Ugly cars get a lot cheaper as they depreciate, or ugly cars get a lot prettier as they depreciate. Right?

[B]

They do, yeah.

[C]

Like.

[A]

Like this car. This car was ugly at 175 in 08. At 65. I'm looking past a lot of its four flaws.

[B]

Yep. Yes, it is. So I agree with that. But I just. I could not believe, like, this. The 360 was a bargain. Like, we always. Like, that's what I think it was like, a bargain.

[A]

This car is the mondial of the modern world. The difference being it drives really well. And actually, mondials drive pretty well, too.

[C]

Yes, but this is generally a good.

[A]

Car, legitimately a good car.

[C]

Hey, Kevin, stand that photo for a second.

[B]

Well, too late, but I just want.

[C]

To move off this. I would. I will give you $5 right now if you can name that. Right. Red car.

[B]

I'll give you $5 right now if you can tell me how much horsepower.

[A]

480.

[C]

469.

[A]

480.

[B]

How many gears does it have?

[C]

It has seven.

[A]

And you know what? That's a Buick Encore GX. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right.

[C]

I wasn't that far off.

[B]

You're close. But anyway, I think that it is such a bargain.

[A]

And 65, honestly, those flaws, too, you. You buy the car, you put it on Turo, you fix none of them do. You make three, then we rent it.

[B]

To go do cars. You go the next time you sit in the back of it.

[C]

I'm not. No. No human, no adult can sit in the back.

[A]

That interior does look nice. You know, I got to tell you, for 45,000 miles, that interior has held up well. Because one of my complaints about Ferrari is that they're not meant to be used all that much. It's like art. And so the cars just wear so much faster than, like, Porsches and other cars. I don't know.

[B]

Pretty good.

[A]

That looks pretty nice.

[B]

Well, I mean, it looks good. That said, all the buttons, I'm sure, are sticky and stuff doesn't function as it's designed.

[A]

Chrysler Infotainment.

[B]

Occasionally, the seat just starts. The passenger seat just starts moving on its own. Ferraris, that's just how they are so specific.

[A]

The ghost.

[B]

That's. That's the Ferrari way.

[A]

I'm Telling you this is for 65. That's a pretty good agree.

[B]

Imagine you're sitting behind that steering wheel 65 and.

[A]

And it sounds like a Ferrari and it goes like a Ferrari.

[B]

It ain't slow.

[A]

It's got a V8. It's not like it's some plug in hybrid four cylinder C63 crap. It's still an AV8.

[B]

It's not like a four cylinder 718.

[A]

Speaking of cars that cost over 65, pull up the M5.

[C]

All right. Pull up the A6. Okay. This past week we auctioned a very Low Mile Mile. E60 M5 had 3,300 miles, but it was the SMG.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And an early one.

[C]

Launches failed to be reserved at 74. I will say this is the by far the highest public bid to amount or result that I found for automatic E60s folks.

[A]

This is rare. We talk about Filippo's bringing up a car that didn't sell. We like to pretend during the market report that we sell all the cars. Well, reserve not met. We don't know what that means but Filippo brought this up.

[C]

I sure did.

[A]

This is very impressive.

[C]

It's a strong. Legitimately it is the highest public result for an E60.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Didn't sell. It's we sometimes, especially when a car just has no comps, we just want to see what the market.

[A]

How do we know?

[C]

Who knows? Nobody knows.

[A]

But sometimes these cars sell for green kay and sell for 125.

[C]

That feels like a lot of money for an SMG60 M5.

[B]

Well, and again in 06 it's a pre LCI car too. So they're just less desirable. But it is white, which is a rare car.

[A]

Very rare. I don't know if I would have cut it loose if I were the seller. I don't. I know what they were looking for.

[C]

I'm not going to announce the prior record by the way, was 60k for like a 10,000 mile car a year ago.

[A]

Yeah, I mean it's hard to know. How do you value a tick?

[C]

Do you think it goes up? Maybe sticks will low mile a low. If it was 30,000 mile stick, this would be twice amount.

[A]

Given that this was bid to 74 and the California sold for 65. Which would you rather have? Zero mile E60 M5 in California?

[B]

An E60 M5 that needs rod bearings tomorrow anyway and. And a manual swap or a California that needs everything.

[A]

I'd get the Cali in two seconds.

[B]

I think.

[A]

What am I going to do with a car with 3,000 miles you can't use it.

[C]

You hope it appreciates. But will it like is there desire? It's. It's special obviously because it's a. It's the only V10 M5.

[A]

Yeah. But it's a tip.

[C]

An F10 M5 with 3,300 miles or an F95 with 3,300 miles, that's probably regardless.

[B]

But it's just not The SMG was. SMG's bad.

[A]

It's weird to have the very best example of the least. The lesser desirable version.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, it's like the 1 mile EcoBoost or something. Like what do you do?

[C]

What do you do with that?

[A]

I don't know. But I'll tell you, it was cool to see this car come up. It was cool to look at the interior photos. You do not see them in this shape anymore.

[B]

There will be a marker for this and I'll tell you why. This 308 GTSI the least. This was the nicest version of the least desirable version of the 350.308.2 valve fuel injected car really early and it brought real money because it had 1900 miles.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

That has a specific look.

[A]

Ferrari is a thing. Ferrari is a thing. And trans is a big factor.

[B]

I think at some point like I can see this becoming like something someone wants for a collection of the lowest mileage.

[C]

You look for a stick.

[B]

You'd look for a stick. Although they're God, they are all driven. That's the point of the stick. That's what most people want. And that's also the point market. I mean, honestly, kind of. You're too afraid it's going to break.

[A]

This was a very interesting auction.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I was surprised it got as high as it did. Surprise seller didn't cut it loose. But at the same time not that surprised. Seller may know more than we do. This car is very special.

[C]

They may hope for more than we know. Yes.

[A]

I E60M5s are still cool, man. I look at this picture of this one and I'm like this car is damn cool. Those wheels. This car looks damn cool.

[B]

It would be the best M5, no question if it had any shot at reliability.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Does not.

[A]

Also if the engine were a little less peaky.

[B]

Yeah. A little more torque, a little less sacrilege.

[A]

But I really.

[C]

83 pound feet.

[A]

I really wish that the M3 with the V8 and the M5 with the V10. That the powertrains were just designed a little different.

[B]

But that's also how M engines are Always have been. Like they've. With the exception of like.

[A]

Then why do a V10, give us a turbo?

[C]

That's a question.

[B]

You know why? Because Formula one and they could give.

[A]

Us a real four cylinder like amg.

[B]

They. Luckily they haven't done that.

[A]

That's what we want. Okay, I want to talk about. We want to talk about two more cars.

[C]

Yeah, we do.

[A]

I want to talk about the Grand Cherokee. Please pull up the Grand Cherokee.

[B]

Oh, absolutely.

[A]

The best car we have on the site right now. And that's saying a lot because there's some good stuff on the site we got right now. This is. Folks, this is just a Grand Cherokee. Look at it. It's a. It's a 13 grand Cherokee Laredo S X. Okay. It's boring.

[C]

Know that was a trim.

[A]

It was boring Grand Cherokee.

[C]

But then, by the way, that's a good gen Grand Cherokee. Yeah, the best. Jun.

[B]

But then you open the hood.

[A]

You open the hood and under the hood There is a 6.4 L Hemi swap with a blower. Not just a hemi swap, but a blower. What's the they. They dyno it. It's got some crazy wheel number.

[B]

626 wheel.

[A]

Folks. This is a 600 horsepower car. Now you're thinking to yourself, well, Jeep made the Trackhawk and the. No, no. This is cool because it doesn't look. Yep, they did the wheels because I presume they did brakes. So those wheels are from an SRT Grand Cherokee. But otherwise this is just. It just looks like a regular old Grand Cherokee. This is a dude in New Jersey and he kept it total. He resisted all the temptation you have when you do a motor swap to also black out the tails and lower it and put on a heinous body. Body kit. This is the coolest car on the site right now. I am obsessed with this thing.

[C]

Can I give you a Jeep? Fun fact.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Do you know the fastest 0 to 60 Jeep of all time is this. That came from the factory. Maybe this, maybe not.

[A]

Trackhawk.

[C]

No, the Wagoneer s. Of course the wagon. Your ass is faster than the Trackhawks.

[A]

Look at that. Look at that. Go back to the tail. The headlight. Look at that cloudy headlight. This is amazing.

[C]

I know.

[A]

This is just looks like a Jeep that you would see driving around as an Uber.

[C]

Uber. Yep.

[A]

204000 mile odometer reading.

[C]

The engine blew up and he put in a different one.

[A]

Right.

[C]

That's what happened.

[B]

That's cool.

[A]

But that's cool.

[C]

That's so cool. I agree.

[A]

And it's so cool that he kept it like, this is. I'm dead serious. Like, you drive around New Jersey, you just see this thing and you're like, oh, someone put SRT wheels on a regular. Then you line up.

[B]

I'm trying to remember what was that other V8 swap truck that we had that the guy looks stock from the outside, but had it swaps. But that's the thing. If you do this and it looks.

[C]

Like it's so good.

[A]

I love a swap like this.

[B]

It's so. It looks so.

[A]

It takes so much more restraint not to do the dumb other stuff, and yet it ends up so much better.

[C]

It's so cool.

[B]

Totally. I totally.

[A]

526 wheel. That's.

[B]

That's real.

[A]

This is 640 horsepower car that would.

[B]

Bore Filipo in the next two.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

So this one, next Tuesday, if you were legit. This is what you.

[C]

If I were legit and lived in New Jersey, I would.

[A]

What do you mean? You gotta live in New Jersey?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, it does surprise me.

[C]

You could live in Pennsylvania, but, like.

[A]

It does surprise me. This was done in Pennsylvania's emissions. It does surprise me. This was done in New Jersey because it's like, they're, like, tight with that stuff. Like, it was. The other one you're thinking about was that Xterra. That Xterra that had the Titan V8 swap.

[C]

Oh, that was cool.

[B]

Amazing.

[A]

That one, the green.

[C]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Look at that again.

[A]

Lifted it, like, made it cool off roady, but didn't mess with it otherwise. Didn't do dumb stuff.

[B]

Look pretty stock within. Under the.

[A]

Under the hood, it had a Titan V8, which just looks like a regular motor. Like, that's so killer. Anyway, love the Grand Cherokee. Want the Grand Cherokee. Someone out there buy it and enjoy it.

[C]

Yep. Is it.

[A]

No. Reserve.

[C]

It is. Go bid.

[B]

You could bid.

[A]

Okay. We want to talk Emeraldster, then we got to move on to questions, questions, questions. Yes.

[B]

So I think about this a lot when you, you know, you're a Porsche guy. Porsche, Porsche, Porsche people.

[A]

I've had more Nissans than Porsches. Do you. You know that?

[B]

Is that so?

[A]

Yeah, I had a Skyline, a Cube, and a.

[B]

The Cube. The Cube was a technicality. Didn't your brother just give it to you for like.

[A]

Yeah, but I owned it for, like, two years. That car. Here's a story about my Cube, that car. I personalized my Georgia license plate to, say, 001 AAA and. And so it looked like the first license plate And a man came up to me one day and said, you got the first one. And I said, yep, got lucky. And I just walked away.

[B]

But that was. That was you throwing it down from one nerd to another.

[A]

All right, let's talk about.

[C]

By the way, if you're a newer fan of Doug, go search Nissan Cube.

[A]

Doug, is there a video? There's a great review. We did a video right before I sold it.

[C]

Right. You did a video long ago.

[A]

Does it have the 001A? No, I don't think it does. Okay. Emerald.

[B]

Anyway, so Porsche people love colors. The unique colors bring a dramatic difference. We saw this with that cayenne that happened recently. BMW people and other marks less so.

[A]

So.

[B]

So this BMW, this BMW, if you let me speak uninterrupted for once, this BMW M Roadster, this is evergreen over Evergreen, which if this were on a 964, it'd be 200,000.

[A]

That's a 964. That singer wouldn't take Heck apart.

[B]

Right. Meanwhile, this car sold for $17,266, which is nothing great. Not at miles 114,000 miles. But it's a really seemingly special color. But I've seen a number of them that are this color and they don't really premium.

[A]

This is. I want to be clear. This is a very ugly color. And the interior is even.

[B]

Oh, the interior. I mean, it's.

[A]

The interior is horrible. However, if I were buying one of these, this is the only color I would consider. It's so cool.

[C]

Can I use the other. So here's why. I know which one you're pulling up. You're pulling up the Nephrite green.

[A]

Yes, like a. Oh, it's hard way back that.

[C]

Yeah, I don't. We sold it for a lot of money though. Yeah, I'll find it that way.

[B]

Yeah, I'll find. So here's very similar color to be.

[C]

Here's why I think you're taking it wrong. We sold last week a different Z3M with a touch lower miles. Like 100ish thousand miles. That was a regular color a week prior and that sold for 12,5. So this car soles for 50% more.

[A]

Yeah, it's. With this one, it's still not bringing money.

[C]

But. But 50% more is the same margin as any other. Like that boxer sold for 30, 40% more than another 50. Like a non special, a 997 in a special color. 50% more is probably about the right margin.

[A]

Yeah, but Ken's point, like it's still 17 grand. It's not like.

[C]

What do you think it's worth?

[A]

I don't know. I. I think it's cool.

[C]

Of course it's cool. That's why it's 50% more than a.

[A]

Regular color, I guess. I mean, you're right in. If you're looking at. On a percentage basis.

[C]

Well, that's how you should be looking at it.

[A]

Well, maybe you're also at $4,000.

[C]

You're buying a Z3M. I guess you're not buying that car.

[A]

It is interesting to me, though, that people don't sit here and say that car is like a. I mean, you're never gonna find another one.

[B]

No.

[A]

There was that really awful green, too, that they did. That was even.

[C]

There was a worse green. I agree.

[A]

It was like urban green or something that was on the Z4. I actually like that color.

[C]

I do. I know exactly the color you're talking about. It's worse.

[A]

It's like a robin's egg, but it's green.

[C]

It's odd. I agree.

[B]

I just think it is interesting. Like, to me, it just. This car just doesn't feel. I mean, the car doesn't feel valued in general, which I think is kind of a shame, because they are actually very fun.

[C]

Why would you people. How highly do you want to value a Z3M?

[A]

People are always at higher. People are always asking me for tips on what cars are going to appreciate. I don't know if it's going to, but it should. This car is radically undervalued.

[B]

I agree. I just think the Z4M is as well.

[C]

I agree.

[A]

The coupes. Is the. Is the coupe closed yet? The Astoral coupe, yes.

[C]

This one.

[B]

28.

[A]

Okay. That got some money. But 28 is a bargain for this.

[B]

When you consider an S54 with the same mileage costs.

[A]

What, you don't think this is a bargain? This is a fun car.

[C]

This.

[A]

It's a fun car.

[C]

But 30 grand is a real amount of money.

[A]

This is a very special car. It really is it the clown shoe. It was a very unusual look.

[C]

It's incredibly cool. But is the experience worth more than that? Not really.

[A]

Is a Z3 is a 250 GTO. It's worth 40 million car. I consider.

[C]

Yes. If you're at the pinnacle of buying art, which is fundamentally what you're buying, then fine.

[A]

That's right. This is art.

[B]

Look at that rear three quarter.

[A]

The reason. I'll tell you this. I don't entirely disagree what they're saying, but I will give you this counterpoint. The S54 cars sell for three. If this was an Astore S54 car.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

We'd be talking about $100,000. But. But that car, whether or not it's.

[C]

Over or underpriced at 130,000 miles, that's.

[A]

Not whether or not it's over, underpriced. The market radically values the S54 and radically does not value the S54. And it seems wrong. It seems like they should be tighter. There is a 70 horsepower difference, but other than that you're still getting. It's a significant amount.

[C]

25% difference.

[A]

But I think the coolest part of the car is you have this bizarre low production, low model year, weird thing they'll never do again. They probably shouldn't have done in the first place. A hatchback coupe makes no sense.

[C]

I love it. Which is why it's worth twice as much as a Z3M roadster.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I think that doesn't feel unreasonable.

[A]

I think both the roadsters and the coupes are undervalued.

[C]

Okay. I'm going to be careful because we have somebody in the office here who owns a 3M Roadster production. Be careful. Why is it that special?

[A]

It's fun. It's a great car.

[C]

It's already more expensive than an NB Miata and an NC Miata.

[A]

Oh my God.

[C]

Oh my God. It's more expensive than a 986 box.

[A]

Which is so much more.

[B]

Cuz the engine's way more expensive more.

[C]

Than a 986s box.

[A]

It's got more power than those same. It's the same but it's substantially 240 horsepower.

[C]

Yeah. It's not that much more.

[A]

It's.

[C]

It's in line with the Boxer.

[A]

That is way cooler than a.

[C]

The coupe obviously is. But we're talking about the roadster like they're priced about appropriately. Talking about both, in my mind they're priced about appropriate.

[A]

If you're talking about the roadster, it's not. It's not more expensive than a 96 Boxer. A 96 Boxer S is more expensive.

[C]

With the same miles. 100,000 mile 96 Boxster is a $10,000 car.

[A]

It just, it just astonishes me. It truly astonishes me that they're rare. They're unlike Boxsters which are diamond. These are rare cars. And the coupes are legit rare. If I saw an Astoral and coupe, I would freak out. I would follow it, I would take a picture, I would send it to everybody. I Cannot think of another 28,000car for.

[B]

Which I actually did recently I slowed down. There's one on a transport and I slowed down to take pictures of it because you never see them.

[A]

S52 I think fine. And by the way, the S52 is the more reliable power. One would argue that it's actually better to take an S52, do a couple of mods to it, get yourself up to 280, 290 horse and call it a day.

[B]

I actually don't disagree with you on that. I like the S52. I had one. A car with an S52. Me.

[A]

I had an S52 and an M3.

[B]

I've. I've. I mean I've been thinking about it but I've ever bought. When I. This is another car you guys talked me out of because I brought up the idea of owning this and everybody said you can't have another BMW.

[A]

Well, I think you should avoid another BMW. But I'm ready for you to get a car.

[C]

By the way, I agree. Undervalued.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The Z4 is the great unders.

[A]

But this is this much, pretty much more special.

[B]

Yeah. But it also. It does come with its own problems though.

[A]

Ugly you're saying.

[C]

I think the Z3 roadster not a pretty car.

[A]

Oh my God.

[C]

All right, let's move on.

[B]

Fleeper just doesn't have this car.

[A]

Go to the side shot. Go back to the coupe.

[C]

The coupe is special.

[A]

Go back to. Click on that. Click on that side profile. That car is.

[C]

So for a while we had a Z3 3.0 done. Obviously you reviewed and I wanted that car cuz I think it is incredibly special and it's. It's a special two has. Right.

[B]

God.

[C]

I've got.

[B]

Dude, just come back.

[A]

It's rare, it's special, the color is special. I cannot believe you can buy that car for $28,000. I truly can't. You get that. And a third gen Viper, by the way. Kenan and I. I want to say something. I want to say one more thing before we go on to questions. I have a new theory. It's like my Cayman GT4 nucleus theory. It's about Vipers.

[C]

Oh.

[A]

Ken and I determined today there are only three generations of Viper. The first gen, the third gen and the fifth gen.

[C]

Yes, agreed.

[A]

But that's what you call them. So there are three gen. Because no one would ever call the fifth gen Viper the third gen Viper. It's just mentally it just seems wrong. The 5th gen Viper is the 5th gen Viper. But from now on, I will Only refer to three generations. Viper, the first gen, the third gen, and the fifth gen. Those are the three generations of Viper.

[C]

Kenan wants a first gen, but would accept a 1.2 gen. Yeah, you can.

[A]

Say dot two if you want.

[B]

Yes, they, they. You know, it's funny because I've been really looking at Viper prices recently, and they seem to be rising relatively steadily. Like, good, good. First Gens are kind of in the 50s now.

[C]

Wow, that's a shame.

[A]

Which is so.

[B]

Because like, not that long ago, they were in the 30s.

[A]

I begged them to get one at 35. Didn't do it. Could have made 15 grand. Okay, we gotta move on to questions. We have to move to questions. Questions are brought to you by the third gen Viper.

[C]

Which one the want?

[A]

All of it. The third gen is the third gen. It's only the second gen. Well, and.

[C]

The fourth gen questions are brought to.

[A]

You by the third gen Viper. It looks like an S2000, but it goes like a Viper. Okay.

[C]

Looks like an S2000.

[A]

Sort of.

[C]

Doesn't matter.

[A]

My big thing about the third gen Viper that really hit me when I was reviewing it is that it's the. The looks are too tame for the driving experience. The driving experience is like, punch you in the face. The looks are. It's kind of pretty.

[C]

I don't think it's tame looking.

[A]

Oh, compared to the other one. Compared to the first gen.

[C]

The rear tires are literally twice the wider.

[A]

I know, I know. The rear is cool. It's wide.

[C]

That.

[A]

But it's the first.

[C]

Yeah. You picked. Yeah, okay. You're right. All right.

[B]

Look at it.

[C]

No, no, you're. You're. You're right. I take everything back. I think back.

[A]

You know what?

[B]

It's the painted windshield. That's part of it.

[A]

They're not that far off.

[C]

No. Very long hood, proportionally.

[A]

But, but, but the difference is the Viper, when you. The difference is the S2000. Pretty tame car. Like, it's. It's very controllable. The Viper, when you get in, you feel like you're gonna die. But it doesn't have the look of a car that looks like it's going to kill you.

[C]

Right.

[A]

That's the problem with the third gen.

[B]

Which is actually, I think, actually kind of adds to the experience. But moving on.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Questions.

[A]

Questions are brought to you by Filippo in his giraffe shirt at Road Atlanta, the IMSA event at Petit Le Mans. Filippo's gonna be there in his giraffe maybe October 11th.

[C]

Right, something like that.

[A]

First question, by the way, great questions this week. Last week I put out a call for questions. I said, we don't have enough good questions. Go to Cars and Bids, click on the Community tab. There'll be a questions post.

[C]

There's so many questions, so great questions. The 400, 500 something questions.

[A]

I went through all of them and I found the best questions. Okay, so here they are from Mora 58. Hi Doug, did your wife ever have concerns about you buying the Carrera GT as it has a reputation of being a widowmaker? Or does she have any concerns with a car you bought or you're planning to buy? Despite being a relatively tame individual? I like cars that are trying to kill me. My Ford gt, you know, it no longer does it have this reputation, but when the Ford GT came out, it was known as a revolution. Really, really uncontrollable car. And there were some really high profile accidents with them. And the Courier gt, of course, also some well known ones.

[C]

Yeah, couple.

[A]

And anyway, but my wife didn't know any of that.

[C]

So the idea that your wife, who is lovely, a lovely human would know that it had a reputation as anything is.

[A]

No, I, I told her very clearly. And, and there was, there was a particular, particularly sad crash in Southern California with the Courier GT where a guy died who had a little kid. And I bought my car just as after I had a little kid. And I think about that a lot when I'm driving the car and I am very careful when I drive for that reason. And I think that tire technology and suspension technology has kind of changed the driving experience of that car. I actually find the car to be tremendously controllable. One of the most poised and controllable cars I have ever driven. Driven. I have never had the experience that some people say they have had of dangerous operation conditions. I do think that has contributed to the increase in interest and value of the car. But I have never had that experience myself. I have always found the car to be tremendously easy to drive and to understand and predictable. And I do push it hard. We went to the racetrack and all that, but I always try to be more careful than I probably could be be given the car's limits are, are pretty significant. And I do think about that sometimes.

[C]

You're both an experienced driver and.

[A]

Yeah, I've also driven everything and I've driven a lot of stuff on the racetrack. But I think people who think that often can get themselves into trouble. And so I try not to, I try not to think that. And I try to just kind of keep the car within its limits, but the limits are significant.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

Okay, here's a good question for you guys. About me. Iambatman writes. Hey, on the very first podcast ever, Filippo named the MK7 GTI the deepest. Filippo car.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

What car would be the deepest? Kenan's is obviously the 395. What car would be the deepest?

[B]

Doug Cargo.

[C]

No, an E63AMG wagon is what?

[A]

I'm not practical.

[C]

How many E class wagons have you owned? Three. Right. All of them more than any other human in North America. America is owned.

[B]

That car is both practical and.

[C]

And like, you love the G Wagon. You. You are. It would not be a car you own now, but you have on them. And it's like the right combination of.

[B]

Practical kind of is kind of there, actually. Very unusual and appreciated for being unusual kind of practical, but also not, you know, because, like, you can't really get to the receipts.

[A]

It's not fast, though. I like performance, and I'm relatively athletic as a person. F you're not fast. You don't think so? Let's race.

[B]

I'll race it.

[C]

Let's go. We'll film right there.

[A]

You think you'll beat me in a race?

[C]

I didn't. I said I would film right there.

[A]

Oh, okay. I think you're f. You get to.

[B]

The tennis neck pretty quickly, but outside that.

[A]

Okay. AMG Wagon or G. I think GCAB is better, but I think that the answer is C3 stingray.

[C]

Oh, on what parameters?

[A]

Famously fast vehicle, cool as hell, big old motor.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And you know what? It'll get the job done, if you know what I'm saying.

[C]

You know what I'm saying? All righty.

[B]

So much worse.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

C3 stingray. We ever sold one of those?

[B]

Yeah, a couple, because it's in 81 was the final model year.

[A]

Oh, yeah, that's me. Wait, no, go to that. No, that's not me as much. Yeah, no, maybe more. I. I view myself more like that one.

[C]

Yes. That one was this so cool.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, that one. Click on that.

[C]

Yeah. I can't believe that's a $7,000 car.

[A]

I know, dude, you want to talk about undervalued stuff? The C3 is so undervalued. Well, that one's a little rough.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

The C3 is so undervalued, though. And you want to know one of the reasons I think the C3 is undervalued? You ask a European to, like, name an American car, they. The first thing they think of is a C3. Like the look of it, like the, the, the radical huge motor with no power, the sound, the pollution. Like this car is so American it should be more highly valued. But it is absolutely.

[C]

It also has wild names like Positro Attraction, which is what everything was named at the time. But like it's weird now.

[A]

Yeah. Maybe the collector edition with its like fading thing. This is me. Dude. Look at the interior. Ever seen interior on a collector edition?

[B]

Well, that looks about as well.

[A]

It's got silver, it's got like gold seats. Gold, Silver.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Interesting. That's me. Okay.

[C]

I really want to drive a four.

[A]

Plus three from AFSCTS V. Doug Nash. Yeah, Doug, I understand the hate for the 4 cylinder C63 given the radical departure from the established formula, but the vast majority of complaints I see are because of the departure from. This is a little nuanced question. It's interesting. Do you think that the V8C class AMG, if it had never existed, would the perception of the 4C63 be different? Yeah, but I think that has to be part of it. I think you can't separate it. We know what a C63 is.

[C]

I have a different. I remember when you had that car, that press car and you were doing a review and you came out of it like I was really hoping that I could say like something nice, different everybody else. But you didn't enjoy the car plainly.

[A]

But. But only because it drove like a Subaru. And I think that's part of his point. Like what if we always knew the C63 drove like a Subaru but the.

[C]

The Prior C Class AMG, even though they weren't the big burly V8s, we're still well engined.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Not afraid.

[A]

But that's, that's the point though. He's, he's saying, can you separate that? I mean, I, I think part of the hate has to be because we know like it's too hard to imagine the C63 else. It's a nuanced question. It's not a bad question. I don't think the car is terrible on its face, but I think when you create, when you create as an automaker, this, this lore of a car, it just is part of what the car is and becomes. And it's, you can't like separate it from that. Like does the. Is the car great if you couldn't think about the other ones? Yeah, I mean it drives okay. Like I. Like an sti, you know, but if.

[C]

You'Re comparing the, the like a Entrant in that segment to a Subaru engine. That's not a positive.

[A]

Maybe, but what, but you know, it.

[B]

Is what it is. History is what it is.

[A]

History. The history is part of it.

[B]

Yeah, I can't. You can't separate it.

[A]

It's a good question. It's a good question. But, but I really think that that ends up. It just has to be part of the car and so it's too hard to separate it.

[B]

Well, you know, ultimately Mercedes Benz, yeah, sure do.

[A]

Another very nuanced and interesting question from Daniel Fritsch. Doug, I remember you saying Toyota launched the FJ at the worst possible FJ cruiser at the worst possible time. The recession came on. We weren't that interested in off roaders at the time. With the success of Toyota SUVs and their off roading pedigree, a relaunch of the FJ as a Bronco Jeep competitor. Could it fit in the marketplace? I think Toyota has decided for whatever reason that that niche will be filled by the 4Runner. And if you look at it from a pricing perspective and from a total sales perspective, the 4Runner is a close competitor competitor with the Bronco and the Wrangler. The difference of course is it doesn't look like them. Right. It doesn't have like an exposed fenders, removable doors, removable roof. But for whatever reason that's the direction Toyota has gone instead. I think the market's cool with that.

[C]

Teased an FJ if you do.

[A]

Yeah, but isn't it like electric or a small. Right. If you do another fj, I think you do risk stealing some of the market that is the 4Runner because I really think that that's what they've done. And I think Toyota has probably smartly understood that the 4Runner actually is a better vehicle for most people. It drives nicer than a Wrangler or a BER Bronco. Most people don't ever take off the roof or the doors. And if you remove those items, the 4Runner is a pretty cool car.

[C]

The Honda passport guys really got to you. That's what consumers really want.

[A]

Consumers want a body on frame capable vehicle. Okay. The Passport's a crossover.

[C]

I do think that, that there is room for a smaller like burlier looking Toyota and I think Toyota will maybe.

[A]

I would love to see the FJ come back, but I think it would really come at the expense of a 4Runner. I think you would see a lot of people who would have bought a forerunner just simply migrate over to that car and think that there's a lot of people who are thinking about a Toyota but choose a Jeep because the Wrangler can, what, take the roof off? Maybe there are some. But I bet it's not a huge. I bet it's not a huge amount of people.

[C]

By the way, we've given Toyota a pass for the Land Cruiser 4Runner thing. Huh?

[A]

God. One of the great bad product planning decisions in history.

[C]

We're talking about, of course, the fact that the land.

[A]

They stole the 300 series Land Cruiser from me will go down. They're worse than the guy who rolled back the 993 odometer.

[C]

Marginally.

[A]

Here's another good question from 2train Doug. Do you. It actually doesn't say Doug. You guys can answer, too. Do you lose all respect for an alleged car enthusiast when he purchases a vehicle in automatic when the same car is produced from the factory with a manual? Like buying a GT4 PDK versus stick. Personally, no. I think there's a lot of good reasons to buy a tip.

[B]

Yeah, I think so. I think it also does kind of depend on the. Depends on the car specifically. But like kind of automatically automatic E60 over versus a manual. That's like maybe position. But also there are. There are reasons. There are value reasons. There are. You know, it depends on how the car is being used.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, if you're gonna. Like, if you. GT4 is a good example. If you wanted to just do track driving with.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If you're gonna drive it around town and go on, like, long drives, like we do a country, maybe.

[A]

But if you're gonna commute. Like, if you're gonna commute. That's why I've always said an Auto Supra would be cool. Like, I think it'd be an amazing, amazing commuter.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's true of an auto NSX. Like, would you rather commute in a Model 3 like everybody else or sit in an Auto Supra? I'd rather sit in Auto Supra manual. Be cooler, but not for bumper to bumper. So I. I think that as long as there's a reason for it, it's fine.

[C]

There's a lot of other things to judge people about. Yeah, don't eat that one.

[A]

Yeah, I'd rather judge people about rolling back. Folks, please, please.

[B]

He's holding up the 993.

[A]

I am a Porsche in three enthusiast.

[B]

Porsche guy, some would say.

[A]

Okay, here's a good one from Clayson 8. We'll do two more. Clayson 8. Continuing last week's question of what car screams I Know nothing about cars, what cars say the most. If you know, you know, thinking of the Volvo S60R vegan Saab's, Jaguar Rs for the mid 2000s. You know, it's an interesting question in bringing up the SXT R when, when, when I worked at Porsche as a Porsche enthusiast, although I certainly wasn't.

[C]

Wasn't then.

[A]

And we'd do job interviews. I would sometimes in the job interview ask people what do you think of the Volvo S60R? That was like a litmus test if they're a car enthusiast. It was just enough like what do you think of the Mustang? Is like too obvious, right?

[C]

I like that question.

[A]

Yeah. So anyway, what are the most if you know, you know, car.

[C]

Lotus Carlton, a V70R. I'm not going to give that 60R pass because those are three thousand dollar cars. Now for a bad one on Facebook marketplace. But really 70R. Yeah, got real cheap. A V70R if you know, you know.

[A]

Don'T you think it's a Lotus Carlton?

[C]

Lotus Carlton is so niche though.

[A]

That's what I'm saying though.

[C]

But like I think about this is like you see a car and you're like, oh, that person's an enthusiast.

[A]

Lotus Carlton.

[C]

Yeah, sure. When did that happen?

[A]

40 RA yesterday.

[C]

We were having dinner and then on my drive home I saw a guy in a, in a Saab 900 Turbo and I knew he was an enthusiast. I think I waved.

[B]

I think you have to be more specific. I think if it's like, like if I see a new car, someone driving a new car, like what identifies. Yeah, but you could say basically any old car. The guy who drives an AMC Pacer who lives near that guy's an enthusiast, 50 years old.

[A]

Here's a question for you that's on the same vein. What car when you see it on the street, are you certain an enthusiast will be driving obviously Ferrari or I wouldn't. Okay, back a little. Let me. Car that you're certain enthusiast driving that you see regularly, what is the most likely.

[C]

I'm not even going to give you courage. You te. Well, if you see a driveway, they're an enthusiast, but if you see somebody that owns one, they don't.

[A]

But I'm saying car you see around. Car you see once a week at least. What is the car that is the most likely to be enthusiast that you see once a week you see at least once a week you could. Who I haven't seen at least probably two years on the road.

[C]

I think like you see a Lotus Elise, you know.

[A]

Okay, I'm talking about a car with regular. I'll tell you, I'll tell you why this, I'll tell you why this question question comes up. I drive my sports cars and I am astonished when I pull up next to a GTI and the person doesn't look at the Countach or when I pull up next to a997 and the person doesn't look at the Carrera GT and it suggests to me that there's a lot of non enthusiast driving enthusiast cars. So I'm curious what is the most likely enthusiast car? Yes, an Elise.

[B]

One of the Miatas. One of them. The issue there's not the nc.

[C]

You don't think many automatic nd.

[A]

Yeah. You don't think there's a lot of tip Miatas out there that are just bought by like an older person who.

[B]

Wants a convertible if they, they have the, the bbs. If I see the BBS wheels.

[A]

I know how often you see that though.

[B]

I see them on Kevin's all the time.

[A]

You get my point. But you get what is the car.

[B]

That's the point.

[C]

A non current 911 of any kind?

[A]

Yeah, a non current 911.991though. Even though.

[C]

No, no pre 991. 911.

[A]

Yeah. I don't know.

[C]

I see them around.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

But I don't know. I do see enthusiasm but I still see enthusiast cars that are driven by like there's an E46 M3 and this neighborhood missing a grill.

[A]

That's actually a good one. M cars.

[B]

Yeah, a lot of M. There are a lot of M cars.

[A]

Sti. I will say STI and Z's I see almost every day they are enthusiasts but I have found in talking to those people that a lot of times they're just enthusiasts of that community and don't really know all like the career GT goes by. It's like a Porsche to them.

[C]

Right. Once it's once the M340 I started existing M cars. You're right cuz they like, like people that are only vaguely into cars will buy them through 340 or the C43AMG or whatever and leave the top pinnacle.

[A]

Yeah. For real enthusiasts. Yeah, that's probably true.

[B]

Something along those lines.

[A]

Okay, last question. This is a good one from Bread Bull. It's a long podcast today. I got no qualms about it.

[C]

Good.

[A]

From Bread Bull. Hello Doug and friends. I am of the opinion that normal cars become enthusiast cars after a certain period of time. What do you think is the period of time that it takes for a normal car to reach enthusiast status? Can you go to Camry? Can you pull up Camry on cars.

[B]

And bids, what, 20 years?

[A]

No, just type in Camry. Yeah, yeah. When I was a kid, this generation of Camry was hated by everybody.

[C]

It was the best generation of Camry.

[A]

This is my point. Car enthusiasts thought this was kind of representative of sort of the decline of the automobile. If you went on Internet forums in 2002, all people would talk about is boring. People just buy these Camrys and Accords and they just buy these boring, milquetoast, stupid cars that are just so dull and they can't. Nobody wants to have fun on the road anymore. Twenty years later, I've noticed there has become this beloved interest in cars like this. And I'm so astonished by it because I was there. I remember people hate. Not only did people hate this car enthusiast, but they truly viewed this car as a visible representation of the decline of automotive enthusiasm. And now if you go to Radwood, people are like, oh man, I gotta clean RAV4. That was people. That car was like a boring front wheel drive BS car that we were all rallying against. Now the cars have become electric and. And even people are like, oh, these were gas cars. This was the. So cool.

[C]

That's not my.

[A]

I think it's so funny.

[C]

I think that we as a community. By the way, my interest is academic. At the time I also thought this is the best one. My interest is academic in nature. But I think that, that people have appreciation for cars that are kept well, that shouldn't have been.

[A]

That's.

[C]

It's not that people think there's a good platform or that it's like a fun card, but if you appreciate enthusiasm for it.

[A]

But people say this is like the best Camry. And when I was there, it was not being said.

[C]

Well, the generation before that was. It's like the strong contender. So it's the hardest of them.

[A]

Both of them were truly considered. It's like how liberals now feel about W. Bush. They're like, he wasn't so bad. That wasn't the conversation, I'll tell you. That's so true.

[B]

That's so true.

[A]

But. But the Camry is a good example. Go back to it. Like all of these cam are now we're running them on this enthusiast website and they get love and people like, oh, I have fond memories. At the time, they weren't fond memories. You hated your dad. If he came home in one of these, you were like, why did you get this instead of something cool? And now Maxima, we had that car except it was. It had hubcaps and a four cylinder. We weren't rich like this guy. And a gold package. Oh, man. This is a different level. Well, different level.

[C]

Doing well. I think the answer is 20 to 25 years.

[A]

Yeah, the answer is 30 years.

[B]

Yep.

[C]

That's.

[B]

And it just.

[C]

So that's not cool enough for you yet.

[A]

Well, this is 25. Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's. I'll tell you this. The O2 Camry is not cool yet. We did sell one, but the O2, where is it?

[C]

Go down a little bit. It's on the next row.

[A]

You know the one I'm talking about with the, with the ugly headlights. This, this car is not cool yet.

[C]

I agree. You're right.

[A]

Not cool yet.

[C]

It.

[A]

Without a. I'm sure over time it's, it's so. But the previous one that ended in 01 has become cool. So there's a 25.5year mark there. What about Accords?

[C]

Do we think that ending in O2.

[A]

The ending in O2 one is cool, but the O3 is not cool.

[C]

The 06 Hybrid.0506 Hybrid.

[A]

We agree the 03 Accord was the best Accord ever made though. One of the best cars ever.

[C]

Okay. There are three generations in a row that I think are competitors. The one before that, the 9800, 2,802. And before that, the 9497 is, I think the best actual product.

[A]

No, they all got stolen.

[C]

Doesn't mean that wasn't a good start. They got stolen because they were a good price.

[A]

Any car that you could sell start with a spoon is not the best car ever made.

[C]

98 to 02, you have to at.

[A]

Least need to use some sort of spoon, knife, hybrid tool, spork. Yeah. Okay. That's the end of the pot. We're way over time. This pot is way too long. Don't watch it. If you've watched it this far, you've made a mistake.

[C]

If you watch it this far. Go rate us on Apple podcast or on Spotify. It helps.

[A]

Yeah, I don't know what that means, but I think you should do it or not do it. Go see. But it does can in Atlanta. It's in like two weeks. I don't know what we're going to do about the pod when they're gone. It's just me rambling about the 993.

[B]

Turbo staying here to be with you. Felipe's going there to do something with an Aston Martin.

[C]

I don't know. I am. I'm. I'm filming a little video with an Aston Martin Virage.

[A]

You know, kind of. It kind of looks like a 959. There's, like, a little 959 here. That's what we tell ourselves in the community.

[B]

You know what the difference?993 looks good.

[A]

All right, goodbye, everybody.

[B]

Best podcast we've ever done.

[C]

Sa.