This Is Actually Happening – Episode 379: What if you witnessed your client’s execution?

Date: October 14, 2025
Host: Whit Misseldine
Guest: Clive Stafford Smith

Episode Overview

In this riveting installment, renowned human rights attorney Clive Stafford Smith shares his extraordinary journey defending the world's most despised individuals—those on death row, incarcerated at Guantanamo, and universally reviled by society. Through deeply personal stories and hard-learned lessons, Clive reflects on the cost of fighting for mercy in the face of hatred, the transformative power of understanding, and the weight of bearing witness to his client’s execution.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Early Life and Family Influence

[01:49 – 08:00]

• Clive traces his passion for defending outcasts back to his ancestry and upbringing.
  • Shares a story about his ancestor “the King of Prussia,” a smuggler pardoned from a death sentence using the “benefit of clergy.”
  • Both parents were “brilliant”; his father was abusive, manic, and emotionally detached, and his mother was a thwarted adventurer due to gender norms of her era.
• Boarding school trauma and emotional dissociation:
  • Sent to boarding school at eight; recounts the pain of separation and learning to “totally dissociate your emotions.”
  • “I didn’t cry from the age of ten onwards. I didn’t get angry. And I don’t think I had the slightest idea what love was until I had my own son.” (B, 07:24)
• A button from his father reading “Question Authority” becomes his lifelong motto.

2. Discovering His Mission Against the Death Penalty

[10:00 – 17:00]

• Inspired by learning about Joan of Arc and the abolition of the death penalty in England, Clive is shocked to discover America still practices execution.
• Travels to America for scholarship at UNC Chapel Hill, dreams of ending the death penalty.
  • Incident with the Los Angeles Sheriff’s Department: Witnesses police shoot a high man with a knife. “If I’d had a cell phone, that would all be on camera... you really think, how often were those things happening before we had cameras?” (B, 15:51)
• Joins the Team Defense Project, tasked with visiting death row inmates, develops an understanding of the human frailty behind “evil.”

3. The Trauma of Witnessing Executions

[17:00 – 30:00]

• Describes loss of his first client, Edward L. Johnson, who is executed by gas chamber in Mississippi.
  • Recounts the horror, the denial of clemency, the role of faith (“Warden said, ‘Put a word in with the man upstairs.’”), and the agony of the moment: “They gassed him with Zyklon B. The same stuff the Nazis used. When you think about sitting there watching someone you like being murdered in front of you, it’s just so not of this world. It was horrible, and it took forever.” (B, 19:35)
  • Regret over missed evidence: “If I knew then what I know now, Edward would be alive today, and he’d be a granddad... I hope people never experience [this].” (B, 19:55)
• On representing those condemned to death: “It’s the ultimate honor... to take a hopeless case every now and then, even when you know... you’re not going to be able to stop it, and do what you can.” (B, 20:28)

4. Personal Cost and Major Cases

[22:41 – 30:00]

• The impact of witnessing the execution of longtime client Nicky Ingram in the electric chair, and the inhumane bureaucracy around “last meals.”
  • “Nicky said, look, I just want a cigarette. And the warden wouldn’t give him one. I say, you know, warden, why not? And he said, we have rules. It’s bad for your health. Oh, fuck off.” (B, 23:10)
  • “If I close my eyes right now, I can see in black and white his bald head and him being tortured to death.” (B, 24:32)
• Defending Larry Lonchar, who “wanted to die”—years of appeals, close stays, his conversion to Christianity before death.
  • Memorable moment: Lonchar’s last words in the electric chair: “Lord, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” (B, 26:11)
  • The shifting perspective on what it means to “win” or “lose” in death penalty cases, and learning to speak the language of jurors (especially in deeply Christian contexts).

5. Challenging the Rhetoric of Evil

[30:00 – 35:00]

• Clive pushes back against the concept of “evil,” relating this to his own father’s mania: “He’s mad, but he’s not evil.”
• Describes the case of Ricky Langley, a man with profound trauma and mental illness, convicted of killing a young child.
  • The mother of the victim, Lorelai, ultimately advocates for mercy and treatment, not vengeance: “As I sit on this witness chair, I can hear the death cries of my son Jeremy crying out for help... He was mentally ill when he killed my child.” (B, 34:23)
  • “The thing we need to do for victims is not tell them they should hate, hate, hate. The only people who are hurt by that are them.” (B, 35:10)

6. How Personal Trauma Shapes Advocacy

[36:00 – 39:00]

• Clive recounts being mugged and hospitalized in New Orleans—how the trauma improved his legal empathy, especially around the unreliability and consequence of eyewitness identification.
• Discusses a case in Tangipahoa Parish, Louisiana: Successfully connects with jurors by framing his client’s “dreams” in relatable terms—home, job, health insurance.
  • “I realized, of course, that I’m the weird one, not him. For most people, that really is their dream.” (B, 37:09)
• Recounts a prosecutor withdrawing from a case, moved by Clive’s arguments: “You’ve convinced me it’s just wrong and we just shouldn’t be doing this... it was so lovely.” (B, 38:59)
• Key lesson: Speak to jurors in language they understand, not law school rhetoric.

7. From Death Row to Guantánamo: Defending the Most Reviled

[41:50 – 54:00]

• After 9/11, Clive fights for the rights of “the new group of people that we're being told we have to hate.” Files lawsuits on behalf of Guantánamo detainees.
  • Describes the hostility he received: “I did a five minute interview in which I was accused of being a traitor to America 13 times. I got amazing death threats that night. It was extraordinary.” (B, 44:01)
• Describes the farcical, cruel logic of the detention system; how most detainees were found to be wrongly imprisoned, the importance of “getting the truth out,” and winning release for 86 out of 87 clients.
  • On the system’s failures: “Of the 780 prisoners, we’ve got 765 out... They said these are the worst terrorists in the world. We’ve proved they’re not in 98.5% of the cases. And this is why the rule of law is important.” (B, 48:07)
  • Anecdote about a 14-year-old wrongly held as an “Al Qaeda” leader due to wildly inaccurate intelligence.

8. Building the Next Generation of Advocates

[54:00 – 56:18]

• Founded the Justice League nonprofit to train young lawyers to become “superheroes” for justice.
• “You’ve got to figure out what your passion really is... because the more hated the people you help, the easier it is, because the more hated, the more wrong it is.” (B, 54:23)
• His ultimate rule: “Every decision you ever make has got to go one way or the other. It either takes you closer to your ideal or further away... always do what takes me closer.” (B, 55:50)
• Final thoughts: “One of the principles that I think is obvious in life is that we should always try to be decent to other people... The antithesis of that is hatred. And I just never see the point. Hatred is just always wrong. So for me, taking on hatred has got to be right.” (B, 56:09)

Notable Quotes

• "My fundamental passion is to look around the world for the most hated people in the world and get between them and the people doing the hatred." (B, 00:27)
• "When you think about sitting there watching someone you like being murdered in front of you, it's just so not of this world. It was horrible, and it took forever." (B, 19:35)
• "If you don't show mercy, which is what this prosecutor wants you not to do, you go to hell. If you do show mercy, you go to heaven. So this is not really about the person I'm representing, it's about you." (B, 28:56)
• "The thing we need to do for victims is not tell them they should hate, hate, hate. The only people who are hurt by that are them." (B, 35:10)
• "You’ve convinced me it’s just wrong and we just shouldn’t be doing this... it was so lovely." (B, 38:59)
• "Hatred is just always wrong. So for me, taking on hatred has got to be right." (B, 56:09)

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |--------------|-----------------------------------------------------------| | 00:27 | Clive's mission to defend the hated | | 01:49–08:00 | Family background and emotional dissociation | | 10:00–17:00 | Discovering the American death penalty and activism | | 17:00–19:00 | Edward Johnson's case, first witnessed execution | | 22:41–26:00 | Nicky Ingram: personal cost of advocacy | | 26:00–29:00 | Larry Lonchar: struggle with those who wish to die | | 30:00–35:00 | Case studies: Ricky Langley and the rhetoric of evil | | 36:00–39:00 | Personal trauma and lessons for advocacy | | 41:50–54:00 | Guantanamo and the fight for “enemy combatants” | | 54:00–56:18 | Justice League and mentoring young legal advocates |

Memorable Moments

• Clive arguing the “What Would Jesus Do” (WWJD) defense and daring a prosecutor to personally “pull the trigger” on a defendant with a toy gun in court. (B, 28:13)
• Victim’s mother, Lorelai, forgiving her child’s killer on the witness stand: “He was mentally ill when he killed my child.” (B, 34:23)
• Clive’s sincere realization: “I realized, of course, that I’m the weird one, not him. For most people, [a house with a mortgage and health insurance] really is their dream.” (B, 37:09)
• Prosecutor moved to switch sides after weeks of conflict. (B, 38:59)

Conclusion

Clive Stafford Smith's life’s work testifies to the importance of mercy, the rejection of hatred, and the need to truly listen to others—be they clients, opponents, or victims. Both harrowing and inspiring, the episode invites listeners to confront prejudice and question the systems built on exclusion and punishment, while offering hope in the possibility of courageous, compassionate advocacy.