Podcast Summary:

This Is Gavin Newsom
Episode: And, This Is A Department Of Justice Under Attack With Attorney General Eric Holder
Date: October 3, 2025
Host: Gavin Newsom
Guest: Former Attorney General Eric Holder

Episode Overview

In this episode, Gavin Newsom sits down with former U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder to discuss the troubling trajectory of American democracy, focusing particularly on attacks against the Department of Justice (DOJ), the politicization of legal institutions, weaponized grievance, gerrymandering, and recent events in Congress. The conversation draws on Holder’s unique experience inside the DOJ and his post-Obama advocacy work, especially regarding redistricting and voting rights. The tone is urgent, candid, and calls for engaged citizenship.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. State of American Democracy & the DOJ

• Holder’s Deep Worry (01:06)
  Holder expresses grave concern about the state of American democracy—specifically, the politicization of institutions, attacks on science, healthcare, and the DOJ:

  “I'm extremely worried… Our sense of who we are as a nation is being challenged.” – Eric Holder [01:06]

• Breakdown of DOJ Independence (05:45, 07:25)
  Holder describes unprecedented political interference in DOJ operations, referencing the Jim Comey indictment:

  “I never, ever heard from the president on that… It gives you a sense of how Barack Obama and Eric Holder thought the Justice Department should interact with the White House. Fundamentally different than the way Pam Bondi and Donald Trump think those two institutions should be interacting.” – Eric Holder [07:25]

2. Trump-era Changes: Fire, Fury, and Judicial Weaponization

• Trump 2.0: More Rapid, Broader, Deeper (05:45)
  Holder notes the Trump administration’s pace and scope surpassed even his own expectations for institutional overreach:

  "It's both deeper and broader, and it has come at a more rapid pace than I think I might have expected.” – Eric Holder [05:45]

• Weaponization of DOJ (09:45, 11:34)
  Holder underscores the dangerous precedent of DOJ being used to pursue political enemies.

  “You had a Trump appointee as a U.S. attorney who decided that there was not a case there, so they fired him, brought in an insurance lawyer… She does the president's bidding and brings a case that barely got through a grand jury… That notion that a president's making these kinds of determinations…” – Eric Holder [05:45]
  “This, just doesn’t happen… This is just not normal, folks. We got to understand that.” – Eric Holder [11:34]

3. The Role of Career Staff & Whistleblowers in DOJ

• Holder’s Advice: “Don’t Resign—Make Them Fire You” (13:13)
  Debating whether DOJ staff should resign in protest or stay to protect institutional integrity:

  “I'd say, look, you stick around, and if they fire you, you know, there's not much… that you can do. But that effort is even enhanced by having them fire you as opposed to resigning. And so I think make them, make them push you out as opposed to you deciding that you want to resign.” – Eric Holder [13:13]

• Tradition of DOJ Independence (09:45)
  Holder reflects on past norms—career staff respected that AG made final calls, not the President, and “the independence of the Justice Department is something every administration valued.”

4. Congressional Dysfunction & Government Shutdown

• Speaker Johnson’s Abdication & Democratic Response (13:56, 15:03)
  Newsom and Holder bemoan Congress’s lack of oversight, with Holder passionately arguing for Democrats to draw firm lines:

  “We've got to stand firm and say, this is who we are. This is who we are as Democrats. We stand with the people, with the interests of the people, not with the special interests.” – Eric Holder [15:03]

• Government Shutdown Dynamics & Russ Vought’s Role (16:27, 17:38)
  Holder warns the shutdown could be long and used as cover for mass firings of federal employees, highlighting Russ Vought’s influence:

  “My hope is that… they'll [not] use this as an excuse to fire even more federal employees. That adds another dimension to this.” – Eric Holder [16:27] “If they get that directive from the White House… wouldn't surprise me if they made the determination… to just blow up the filibuster altogether.” – Eric Holder [18:36]

5. Gerrymandering & Redistricting Battles

• Origin of the National Democratic Redistricting Committee (NDRC) (21:04)
  Holder details his post-AG work—launched with Obama’s encouragement to combat extreme Republican gerrymandering via NDRC:

  “We formed up the National Democratic Redistricting Committee in January of 2017 to really promote fairness in the redistricting process…” – Eric Holder [21:04]

• Impact of Shelby County SCOTUS Case on Voting Rights (23:17)

  “It took away from the Justice Department the ability to challenge states when they tried to do these things. And that has had a really negative impact… we've seen poll closures… voter purges…” – Eric Holder [23:17]

• Successes and Ongoing Battles (25:16)
  Holder highlights measurable gains:

  “As a result of what we've done… that number's now just about one and a half percent… We’ve promoted fairness. And that fairness has almost been like a weapon for us.” – Eric Holder [21:04]

• Racial Dimensions of Gerrymandering (26:35, 31:50)
  On Texas and nation-wide trends:

  “This gerrymandering is done on the backs of people of color… you really decrease… dilute the power, the electoral power that communities of color have in Texas.” – Eric Holder [31:50]

• California’s Independent Commission vs. Texas and Others (33:09, 36:19)
  Newsom and Holder discuss California’s move for responsive, temporary redistricting after Texas’s aggressive gerrymander and Trump’s direct intervention:

  “I want to get back to this whole fight for fairness and the way in which it's crafted in California… only will exist until after the next census.” – Eric Holder [35:58]

6. Broader Suppression Tactics: National Guard, ICE, and Chilling Voting

• Militarization & Chilling Effect on Voting (45:26, 46:38)
  Holder and Newsom interpret troop deployments and DHS expansion as authoritarian maneuvers designed to suppress opposition and intimidate voters:

  “The long play here is to desensitize people to the sight of troops on our streets… deploy them in certain cities and neighborhoods and it'll have a chilling effect in certain communities and they hope suppress voter participation…” – Eric Holder [45:26] “ICE is going to be substantially larger than the FBI… ICE has an important job, but they have never been the size that they're going to be…” – Eric Holder [48:33]

7. Conversations Within Government & Republican Complicity

• Low Morale and Fear in DOJ, FBI, Congress (50:14)

  “Morale is just really, you know, it's in the toilet… you talk to Republicans and they're not in front of the camera… but they are politically afraid to come out and say something against that which this administration wants to do.” – Eric Holder [50:14]

• Climate of Fear (50:14)
  Holder references Mitt Romney’s revelations of both physical and political fears among Republicans after January 6.

8. Optimism, History, and Active Citizenship

• Role of Active, Hopeful Citizenship (52:54, 54:04)
  Holder draws inspiration from historical movements, framing the present as a generational test of democratic resolve:

  “What gives me optimism… is a knowledge of our history… civil rights struggle… suffragettes… they showed remarkable courage. That knowledge makes me think that in this awful moment we will demonstrate that same courage.” – Eric Holder [52:54] “Dr. King said… the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice. But the deal is, it doesn't bend on its own. It only bends when people like us… put their hands on that arc and pull it towards justice.” – Eric Holder [54:04] “Optimism breeds engagement. Pessimism breeds resignation. So I think we can't afford to be pessimistic.” – Eric Holder [54:50]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On DOJ Independence:
  “You never got a call from the President of the United States saying, Mr. Attorney General, I want you to do X, Y and Z. That never happened.” – Gavin Newsom [00:00]
  “That never happened.” – Eric Holder [00:05]
• On the abnormality of current events:
  “This is just not normal, folks. We got to understand that.” – Eric Holder [11:34]
• On Republicans’ gerrymandering:
  “They're going to cheat to try to hold on to the majority that they have in the House of Representatives. And it really comes on the basis of fear.” – Eric Holder [37:40]
• On hope and action:
  “What is it that I can do to pull that arc towards justice, to save our democracy and to keep this nation, you know, keep this nation exceptional? I'm optimistic because of that history that I shared. I think that optimism breeds engagement. Pessimism breeds resignation.” – Eric Holder [54:04-54:50]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:06] Holder’s “temperature check” on democracy and attacks on DOJ
• [05:45] Politicization and rapid deterioration of DOJ norms
• [07:25] DOJ-White House contacts under Obama vs. Trump
• [09:45] Independence of career staff and handling internal disagreements
• [11:34] Comey indictment and dangerous precedent
• [13:13] Advice to federal staff: stay and protect the institution
• [15:03] Holder on Democrats’ stand during shutdown
• [16:27] Possibility of a prolonged government shutdown and federal layoffs
• [21:04] Formation and impact of the NDRC
• [23:17] Shelby County decision and its consequences
• [31:50] Racial impacts of gerrymandering in Texas
• [33:09; 36:19] California’s redistricting response to Texas; principles for fair processes
• [37:40] National “cheating” strategies and fear as a political motivator
• [45:26] Militarization and intended suppression of the vote
• [48:33] Expansion of ICE as an authoritarian tactic
• [50:14] Internal morale and bipartisan fear in DOJ, Congress
• [52:54] Closing tone of hope and optimism; historical context
• [54:04] The call to action and moral legacy

Episode Tone & Takeaways

The episode is both sobering and mobilizing. Newsom and Holder, in a frank, urgent, and at times personal exchange, chart the erosion of democratic norms alongside the tools and organizing needed to fight back. Holder’s prescription is clear: resist normalization of deviance in institutions, defend democratic processes, and remain actively engaged as citizens. The arc of the episode bends toward the hopeful—but only if listeners put their hands on it.

For listeners seeking to understand the stakes of American democracy in 2025, the tactics of institutional capture, and what can be done to fight back—this episode is a must-listen and a call to action.