And, This is A Republican Without A Country with Frank Luntz

Summary

Podcast Summary: "And, This is A Republican Without A Country with Frank Luntz" Host: Gavin Newsom | Release Date: May 14, 2025 | Platform: iHeartPodcasts

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Introduction

In the episode titled "And, This is A Republican Without A Country with Frank Luntz," Governor Gavin Newsom engages in a profound and candid conversation with Frank Luntz, a renowned Republican pollster and communication strategist. The discussion delves deep into the current political climate, the increasing polarization in American society, and the imperative need for honest and respectful dialogue across the political spectrum.

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The State of Political Division

[03:12] Frank Luntz:
"It's exactly it. And to me, what’s frightening is that we want to fight, argue, and disagree. We're looking for a reason to say I'm insulted or worse, I'm offended. That's the kind of culture we're in, and no one's trying to get us out of it."

Luntz emphasizes the unprecedented level of division in the United States, noting that neither side is fostering the kind of respectful discourse necessary for national unity. He commends figures like Cory Booker for maintaining an uplifting and non-political tone, contrasting sharply with leaders like Chuck Schumer, whom he criticizes for failing to bridge divides.

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Contract with America and Its Legacy

[05:07] Frank Luntz:
"The moment it started was the day Newt Gingrich got elected Speaker in 1994. Republicans winning something they hadn’t for 40 years set the stage for ongoing conflicts. The Contract with America was the first time politicians put an agenda on the line with accountability."

Luntz reflects on the historical significance of the Contract with America, highlighting its role in reshaping Republican strategies and its initial positive reception. He laments that modern politicians no longer "run for something" but rather focus on opposing the other side, leading to heightened tensions and reduced collaborative efforts.

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Personal Journey and Shifting Perspectives

[14:38] Frank Luntz:
"John McCain came up to me and asked if we could find a way to disagree without labeling people. That was a pivotal moment for me, illustrating that civil discourse is possible even among staunch opponents."

Luntz shares personal anecdotes demonstrating his shift towards valuing civil engagement over partisan antagonism. He recounts interactions with Democratic figures like Barbara Boxer and Michael Bennett, emphasizing the importance of understanding and respect despite deep-seated disagreements.

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Effective Communication in Politics

[25:18] Frank Luntz:
"Barack Obama's speech in Selma, Alabama, is the best speech I’ve ever seen a president give. It was an investment in emotional intelligence and empathy that truly resonated."

Luntz discusses what makes a powerful political communicator, praising leaders like Barack Obama, Tony Blair, and Mitch Landrieu for their ability to connect emotionally and present positive visions. He contrasts this with contemporary politicians who focus more on condemnation than celebration.

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Critique of Democratic Communication Strategies

[62:39] Frank Luntz:
"Democrats need to find a way to share success without punishing the wealthy. They are too negative and focused on defeating opponents rather than building a positive agenda."

Luntz critiques the Democratic Party's current messaging, arguing that their focus on wealth taxes and condemning opponents alienates voters. He advocates for a more constructive approach that emphasizes solutions and celebrates American strengths.

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Impact of Social Media and Behavioral Changes

[43:04] Frank Luntz:
"It's our behavior magnified tenfold by social media. Parents need to understand the impact of constant connectivity on their children’s ability to engage and think independently."

The conversation shifts to the role of social media in exacerbating political and social divisions. Luntz warns of the detrimental effects on younger generations, emphasizing the need for parental intervention to mitigate addiction and foster genuine interpersonal skills.

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Advice for the Democratic and Republican Parties

For the Democratic Party:

[62:39] Frank Luntz:
"Democrats should focus on solutions that address the wealth gap without punishing success. They need to present a positive vision that resonates with the working class and diverse voter bases."

Luntz advises Democrats to adopt a more optimistic and solution-oriented messaging strategy, moving away from purely oppositional rhetoric to one that offers clear, actionable plans for improvement.

For the Republican Party:

[35:34] Frank Luntz:
"Republicans need to move beyond simply opposing policies. They should highlight what they are for, presenting positive alternatives that unify rather than divide."

He suggests that Republicans should also embrace positive messaging, focusing on what they advocate for rather than solely what they oppose, to attract a broader electorate.

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The Importance of Truth and Accountability

[54:43] Frank Luntz:
"Embrace the truth. Seek the truth. Fight for the truth, and demand that people tell you it. When they say they weren’t wrong, make them prove it."

Luntz underscores the necessity of honesty and accountability in politics. He criticizes the current environment where admitting mistakes is rare, advocating instead for a culture where truth is paramount and leaders own their decisions and their consequences.

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Final Reflections and Call to Action

[71:54] Gavin Newsom:
"Frank, thank you for all your insight. Thanks for the history. Thanks for joining us today. I'm very grateful for this opportunity."

The conversation concludes with mutual respect and a shared commitment to fostering better political dialogue. Luntz challenges leaders like Cory Booker to continue promoting positive messaging and building bridges across the political divide, while Newsom expresses hope for more civil and constructive conversations in the future.

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Notable Quotes

• Frank Luntz [03:38]:
  "The country's never been more divided."

• Frank Luntz [07:33]:
  "When you’re conscious of the resistance, you’re the opposition, but not the resistance."

• Frank Luntz [14:38]:
  "John McCain asked if we could disagree without labeling people. That was pivotal."

• Frank Luntz [25:18]:
  "Obama's Selma speech is the best presidential speech I’ve ever seen."

• Frank Luntz [62:39]:
  "Democrats need to present a positive agenda, not just punish the wealthy."

• Frank Luntz [71:54]:
  "It's taking the better road."

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Conclusion

This episode of "This is Gavin Newsom" provides an insightful exploration into the complexities of American political communication. Through Frank Luntz's expert analysis and personal experiences, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the factors contributing to political polarization and the essential steps needed to foster a more unified and respectful discourse. The conversation serves as a call to action for both parties to embrace truth, accountability, and positive messaging to heal the nation's divisions.

Transcript

[Gavin Newsom]

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[Gavin Newsom]

Asking the right questions can greatly impact your future, especially when it comes to your finances. So if you're looking for a financial advisor you can trust, certified financial planner professionals are committed to acting in your best interest. That's why it's gotta be a CFP. Find your CFP [e-mail] Coming up next on this is Gavin Newsom. I'll be talking to legendary Republican pollster and communication strategist Frank Luntz. We'll be talking about the state of the Democratic Party, Trump's first hundred Days and perhaps most importantly, the state of our union. This is Gavin Newsom. And this is Frank Luntz.

[Frank Luntz]

You look casual.

[Gavin Newsom]

You know, Frank, I wanted to dress.

[Frank Luntz]

Up for you, by the way. Throughout all of this, you've been the most interesting person to me. I haven't always agreed. You've always been really kind to me. And even though we disagreed, I've enjoyed the. It's not even been a back and forth. You're just a good guy.

[Gavin Newsom]

I love that man. I appreciate that. Now, you know what? Let's start right there because I, you know, we're at a point where we're not. None of us are talking like that. I mean, you, you've been studying this stuff for decades and decades. I've been listening to you lately. I mean, you think it's as bad as it's been in our lifetime? Meaning we're at each other's throat. This country has never been more divided. Is that an overstatement or is that about it?

[Frank Luntz]

That's exactly it. And to me, and what, and this is what's frightening about it, is that we want to fight, we want to argue, we want to disagree. We're looking at a reason to be able to say I'm insulted, or worse yet, I'm offended. And that's the kind of culture that we're in right now, and no one's trying to get us out of it. And I give Cory Booker credit because for most of his 25 hours, it was uplifting. It was talking about real people, real concerns. And he did in a way that isn't political. And I think the guy who cut him off, the guy who jumped to that to make sure that he would always be remembered, Chuck Schumer is so far past his sell by date because he doesn't really understand that now we're playing with fire.

[Gavin Newsom]

So, Frank, I want to talk about Corey, because I was struck by how complimentary you were of his 25 hour speech. And. But I want to go back a little bit about, you know, you've been studying this, you've been focused on this. You've been, I mean, you've been a leader in this space and understanding communication, understanding emotion, understanding nature of relationships, not just the relationship to one another politically through the lens of ideology. But has this been, I mean, has this been decades in the making? Is there a moment that you would mark that sort of led to this moment? And you know what, what's your sort of over under in that respect?

[Frank Luntz]

The moment that it started was the day that Newt Gingrich got elected speaker in 1994 because that was Republicans winning something that they had not won for 40 years. And the Democrats didn't like it and never got used to it. And Gingrich was provocative. He pushed you. He prodded you in an intellectual basis. But sometimes he used language that hurt himself. If you remember that Christmas of 1994 they had on the front page of music magazine the Gingrich that Stole Christmas. Well, you're going to get negativity if that's how the media treats you. Now go forward to Bill Clinton's impeachment and the feeling that what he did, while horrific and inappropriate, did that really rise to the level of impeachment? Now go forward to 2000 and Al Gore and George Bush actually tying. And how one side, some people in that one side never, never awarded Bush the presidency and always said that the election was stolen. And then go forward to 2010 and the rise of the Tea Party in 2016 to the rise of Trump. We've been going through this now since 1994, five or six different moments. And here's the issue. To me, in almost all those moments, there were calm heads. There was somebody who would say, enough in the next, just stop doing this. Just shut the hell up. Yeah, you may be right, but the country's more important. And now, now there's no one doing that. There's no one saying it. There's no one. Look, I'll say this to you, and I like you. I said this, I really do, and people make fun of me saying it, but when you conscious of the resistance I had exploded, you're the opposition, but you're not the resistance.

[Gavin Newsom]

Right.

[Frank Luntz]

You're the, you're, you're the challenge. You're the check as a governor. But that's very different than saying, I'm going to oppose everything that you do. And I just feel like we've reached a point on every side. I want to emphasize this on every side, that we're insane. And now our country's at stake. I really do believe that our democracy is at stake right now.

[Gavin Newsom]

No, I appreciate that. And also it's interesting, just this notion of resistance. When we did a special session, what was remarkable to me is what I did not say, but was what was attributed to me as it relates to the purpose of that special session after Trump won. We talked about an open hand, not a closed fists that never got any attention. Folks focused on that in the context of sort of zero sum, which I think is so much of the politics. But I want to go back a little bit, just because. 1994, and it sort of marks a little bit of your history. And, you know, just for folks that don't know you as well as folks like myself that have been following you for decades and decades, you've been traditionally aligned with Republican causes, and you were aligned with Gingrich. As it relates to that 1994 effort, as it relates to that effort to take back the House, as you say, for the first time in 40 years. And that Contract With America, that infamous Contract With America, you worked with Gingrich. Did you not sort of help him develop the language around that? Do you separate that from what came after? His successful ascendancy is the best.

[Frank Luntz]

Truthfully, it's the best thing I've ever done. I should have quit while I was ahead because it's the first time that. That elected officials actually put an agenda on the line. What was important to that Contract was what they were going to do in the first hour and first day, which is something that still politicians need to tell voters they want to know. Second is that it itemized it 10 different issues, from balanced budgets to term limits to fighting crime to welfare reform to tax. Tax reform. All the issues that matter to people. And then there was an enforcement clause. If we break our promise, throw us out. We mean it. With a 1-800-Number to keep track of them. It was the first time that anyone had offered accountability. And of course, the Democrats demonized it. They called it the Contract on America. They were wrong, and the voters said they were wrong. And in the end. Let's keep the record straight here. Only 40% of Americans ever heard of the Contract on Election Day. A minority of voters. But those who heard of it had a 4 to 1 positive rating towards it, which is unprecedented. And it made a difference in the key states because it got Republicans to run for something, not against it. And I don't know what they call you, Gavin or Governor, but, Governor, the issue now is that no one runs for something. No one tells you what you're for. They tell you why. The other guy's wrong, the other guy's evil, and the other guy should be defeated. And this is a really important conversation to have, and I'm glad that you're hosting it. And by the way, you've taken more shit than anyone for bringing. I would not have brought on Steve Bannon. Steve Bannon scares me. I knew him before he was Steve Bannon and before I was Frank Luntz. And the guy is. He scares me. But the fact that you're willing to have these open conversations to engage with people who you don't agree with. Why aren't more people doing this? Why don't we have more civil conversations designed to expose the truth, the relentless pursuit of the truth. What is so wrong about this? You, sir, you've been criticized for doing this. And I'm telling people, shut the hell up and listen. You might learn something. Why are we. I'm 63 now, and you can hear it in my voice. And how these have been some very tough months for me. I'm learning more in these months than I've learned In the last 60 years of my life. Why are we so sure that we're right and they're wrong? Why are we so sure that if we don't pick up another book that there's no reason to read it? To explore, to question and to challenge. This is why I teach at West Point. This is why I'm wearing this shirt. Because I'm meeting with the best students. And, Governor, you gotta come. The reason why I did this interview, why I wanted to be face to face, is I wanted to invite you to West Point. Reach over, shake your hand, because I know then you have to go. There are more cadets from California than any other state.

[Gavin Newsom]

Love it.

[Frank Luntz]

I want you to see the best and the brightest and the most ethical and the most devoted and the most civil. They say, yes, sir. No, ma' am. Thank you. They're appreciative of their country, and they're willing to give the greatest sacrifice for it, just as you and I can have a civil conversation. Please come to West Point and meet the best Californians you'll ever meet.

[Gavin Newsom]

No, I appreciate that. And full disclosure, you invited me and Wes Moore, Governor Moore from Maryland at the National Governor's Association. We were there, and you asked if we were available. And the two of us had the privilege of doing a little roundtable with you where you did a mini focus group with these guys. And they were asking us questions. And that was a special. I know, for Wes and I. We left that meeting, Frank. I mean, these guys, to your point, next level, inspired by their service, their civic mindedness, their sense of duty and patriotism. It really touched, I know, both Wes and I. And so I appreciate your firm commitment to those young men and women that. That are truly among the best and the brightest.

[Frank Luntz]

And they loved you because the two of you didn't agree on everything. And you talked with each other with civility and respect. You had different approaches to some of the biggest issues facing the country. And they were so thrilled that two of the most important governors in the country would give them an hour. And I want to give you credit for this. You promised me 20 minutes. You stayed for an hour and 10. Governor, thank you for that. They noticed it. They appreciated it. And I want viewers to know that you give a shit, frankly.

[Gavin Newsom]

No, I appreciate that. And look, I think they sort of distill the essence of, I think, the path back and getting out of this muck. And I want to go back, though, just a little bit, Frank, on your journey, because I'm really fascinated by this, and I appreciate your firm defense of the Contract With America in the context of, look, having a plan, having an agenda, of being transparent about it as you're running, and then. Then having some accountability framework and the merits and the demerits of that I'm interested in. But moreover, I'm just interested in your own journey. I mean, you. You were out there working not only for causes supporting Gingrich, but obviously other Republican causes, as I referenced in helping, messaging and languaging for George Bush. And you worked the pro campaign a little bit, Giuliani and others. Was there a point in your own journey where you realized, man, this is not going well for this country, that. That even you started to sort of soften the edges, started to reach out to the other side?

[Frank Luntz]

Well, I was always curious. And it was Tom Dash who brought me in, and I created. I have not talked about. I've never talked about this, actually. I don't even know if you know what I'm about to say.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Frank Luntz]

But I created a phrase, the National Democrats. And these are people who acted one way in Washington and a different way back home. And Tom Dasch was one of the most ethical people I ever knew. Still around. He's a really special human being. But I demonized him using that Dashiell Democrat. And it was John McCain who came up to me and said, do you really have to do that? Can we find a way to disagree without labeling people? McCain, a Republican, dressing me down. And John McCain's tough. And he disagrees with you. He tells you it. And you have to scrape yourself back together and somehow leave the room with your tail between your legs. And I felt really bad about that. And Dash was the first person to bring me to a Senate Democrat meeting. This is maybe around 2000. I'd say maybe 2002. And I presented to them. And I remember Barbara Boxer, California senator, giving me a hard time around the table. And he leaned over to Me. And he said, let it go. And it was the best advice I ever got. Because she was ideological, she was very political, very in your face, wanted to take you on because she believed in what she believed in and wanted you to know it and wanted to bring you over to her side. So here's the weird thing, how I handled her that day and how we got to know each other afterward. And again, we don't agree on anything. She invited me into her last campaign and I said to her, do you know who I am? Do you know what I believe? Like, what the hell? And I talked to her chief of staff saying this is wrong. And she actually was serious about it. She wanted someone on the team to be a check, to be a challenge. She wanted that perspective and she felt that her own team wasn't doing it. So she said, I trust you and trust is the most important thing you can have. And to me, it's the truth. The truth. The relentless pursuit of the truth. We have to be engaged in that. And I said no, but I really appreciated the invite. And we still talked. I think, you know this. Barack Obama on national television told House Republicans at their retreat. And he calls me from time to time and they're all saying. So he begins the conversation by saying, I see Frank Luntz right there. He's taking notes. And at that moment, I'm freaking out, because I am. He says he's trying to figure out how to defeat me, how to make Nancy Pelosi look bad. And that's exactly what I'm doing. All I could think of is a camera behind me shooting my computer. So I reach over, pulled it down slowly so people wouldn't think I had anything to hide. And they're all cheering me, the House Republicans around me. Way to go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then he says, but, you know, Frank and I talk, we have conversations. I listen to him and he listens to me. And then the same people around me are now booing me. Shame. How dare you. And this is the kind of relationship that I've had to American politics over the last 25 years. Just because we disagree doesn't mean we can't have really deep, philosophical, solution oriented conversations over a meal, over Coke Zero. It doesn't mean that we can't or shouldn't engage. I'm going to out someone in this conversation. I've had some very serious doubts about where our country is going. And the person I shared that with more than anyone else wasn't a Republican. It was Michael Bennett of Colorado, because he had the same doubts. And I don't want to embarrass him or embarrass myself, but those conversations were so meaningful to me. We would book sessions for 15 minutes that would go on an hour. My office knew don't schedule when you go see Michael Bennett, Senator Bennett don't schedule for an hour. His office finally figured out the same. So, Governor, to a lesser extent, you and I have done that to a much lesser extent. But in the times that we've gotten together, I listen to you, I listen to your ideas, I listen to your solutions, I listen to your leadership. I read your speeches. And I frankly wish we'd known each other better. Because where California goes, the rest of America goes. If we get it right here, we're going to get it right nationwide. If we get it wrong here, it's going to have an impact. But I appreciate you probing because that's a story I've never told publicly before.

[Gavin Newsom]

I love it. By the way, do you remember what notes you were taking when Obama called you out?

[Frank Luntz]

Yes. It was what the Republicans needed to say about Pelosi. And it's that she doesn't engage with America. She doesn't know America. She knows her Democratic friends in Congress. And what do they know about America? I was trying to draw the distinction between a Washington Democrat, which I've always done, and an American Democrat who's out there, out there in the real America, working for a living, making ends meet. That was the beginning of my playing around with the phrase paycheck to paycheck. And I was doing a whole list of all the things that Pelosi or Obama were saying that did not relate to America. And you know what? I never gave Republicans that list.

[Gavin Newsom]

Interesting.

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[Gavin Newsom]

Speaking of, you know, just that list, in looking back as you study the effectiveness and Obama sort of in return, respecting the fact that you're a student of your craft, you're always. You're sort of open argument, interested in evidence. When you look back over the last 40, 50 years, who you think have been the most effective communicators and why. I assume Obama is on that list or is he not from your perspective?

[Frank Luntz]

He is on that list. And there's a specific speech that everyone. I ask everyone to read because it's the best speech I've ever seen a president give. And remember I'm supposed to say Ronald Reagan.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah, I was waiting for that, Frank.

[Frank Luntz]

It's not. It's Barack Obama's speech in Selma, Alabama, on the anniversary of what happened on the Edmund Pettus Bridge. And I had been made aware of this by John Lewis. And I'll tell you another story again, by the way, all my stories are with Democrats, not with the Republicans. John Lewis invited me to join his trip, his civil rights trip, a few years before he passed away. And in every single location. And everyone who spoke, he came over to me, sat down and told me why this was significant. And I kept saying to him, sir, you've got eight members of Congress here. You had Jack Kemp, who was the presidential candidate. You have far more important people. Stop wasting your time. He puts his arm around me and I'm gonna. I may. May get choked up, he says, because they're gonna forget this place and you're gonna remember it. Of all the people here, it's gonna have the biggest impact on you. And so I need to have the biggest impact on you. I'm not wasting time. This is an investment. And you know what? I'm telling you that story now. It came true. I tell people repeatedly how essential it is for all of America to see Selma and Birmingham and Montgomery, not to read it in history books, not to see the documentary, but to go there and see it. And, sir, I wish my voice was better because you're memorializing this. But that was the most impactful weekend of my political life. And it woke me up to things I did not understand. It turned me into a mentor to a number of young African American boys. Some cases did not have fathers to direct them. And who the hell am I to give them any advice, to give them any wisdom? But they stayed with me after that experience. I knew what I wanted to do, and they gave me the grace to say things I shouldn't say and to make mistakes. And I gave them the respect to teach me. And those young men are now in their early 30s, and every one of them is successful. Every one of them is doing amazing things. And I would not have engaged them when they were 19 if John Lewis had not engaged me earlier in my career. So I have to admit, I don't know what the question was in the.

[Gavin Newsom]

Spirit, and I love it. I mean, anytime we can talk about John Lewis is worth the time. But you were talking about Barack Obama and that moment in that speech and how you think that stood out to you as one of the greats.

[Frank Luntz]

And there have been other ones that have been just like that. Tony Blair is, to me, the best speaker. And he's not even American.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah. Former Prime Minister, UK and I've said.

[Frank Luntz]

This to him within the last 48 hours, that of everyone alive today, no one could have a bigger impact. No one knows and understands the global implications of where we are and what we're doing and how we need to get out of this mess before we make it any worse than Tony Blair. And my biggest political regret is that he was with the Labor Party and I couldn't work for them because I was a conservative. And in reality, it was what Blair's focus and what he tried to achieve is very similar to what I try to do. He only does it 100 times better. And the effort that he's made in the Middle east and in Africa to try to bring about understanding. He's a statesman. Statesman. So he would be number two. I want to give Cory Booker credit because so many of Booker's speeches are so impactful. And Wes Moore. But let me give you one more again, on the Democratic side, and that's Mitch Landrieu.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Frank Luntz]

Mitch Landrieu is the single best. And you're not bad. But Mitch Landrieu is the best retail politician I have ever seen.

[Gavin Newsom]

He's good. I agree with you.

[Frank Luntz]

I watched him. We're having lunch in a restaurant that's closed, and a woman comes in the door, and she is frail and Frazzled and crying. And it's right around the inauguration. I've never seen anything like it. And they're trying to throw her out of the restaurant. Landru sees this and says, wait a minute. He puts his arms around her and says, what's your name? Where you from? How can I help you? And he calmed her down, and he sat her down. He said to me, I need five minutes with her. And she left the restaurant, and she was okay. And that's brilliant to me.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Frank Luntz]

Because that's rhetoric on a personal, individual, human scale. So Landry is absolutely brilliant.

[Gavin Newsom]

I love that. So you got to give me a Republican. Frank. We're going to lose credibility here. I mean, you talked about Reagan. A lot of people have talked about the difference between a great communicator versus a great orator. Is that a distinction worthy of exploration? Is that a distinction that could be made? Even some have made it. As relates to Obama versus Reagan. What's your assessment?

[Frank Luntz]

You can't forget Bill Clinton either. And Clinton and. Well, here's the amazing thing. Ronald Reagan changed hearts and minds. People went from being Democrat to being Republican because of Reagan. And that's why he deserves significant credit. To me, Gingrich, when he was optimistic and positive, was incredibly powerful. And I have to go back to Jack Kemp, who's no longer with us. Jack Kemp was an amazing order because he saw the good and the great in America. He was about freedom. He was about opportunity. Very much an economic communicator. And for the social issues and the cultural issues, for me, it'd be Bill Bennett, who's still with us. And the two of them, the three of them, Gingrich, Kemp, and Bennett, communicated what was great and good about America. We just don't hear it anymore. Obviously, one of them has passed away. One of them is essentially out of politics, and the other one has gone full in on Trump and lost some of what made him so unprecedented in terms of an intellectual mind. Better than anyone I ever met.

[Gavin Newsom]

All right, Gingrich, you're talking about. Yeah.

[Frank Luntz]

The smartest elected official we've ever had. And he never got a chance to demonstrate it because the people around him and his own insistence on drawing a contrast between what he saw as good and evil undermined and eventually killed him as speaker. And if you ask me what my greatest regret is, personally, it's not standing in front of him in a camera, getting in front of him and saying, sir, don't say that. It may be true, it may be intellectual, but the American people are not prepared to hear it. And they will turn against you if you say it. Newt was courageous in your face and he could have done so much more for the country if someone had just said, don't do this because it will hurt your reputation.

[Gavin Newsom]

So he's to you both and obviously sort of marks that moment as you reflect on where our politics today and you could connect that, I'm curious, how much do you connect Bill Clinton's success to Newt Gingrich and that Contract with America?

[Frank Luntz]

Well, the best legislation that's passed in the last 30 years, this is the public saying it is welfare reform to force people on welfare, to get jobs, to say to them, we will help you and we will not punish you. But the single best welfare program is a job that we hope will become a career and that maybe, if you're lucky, will become a calling and that you should not, if you're able to work, you should not be able to collect money because that's not fair to other taxpayers. And Gingrich pushed and pushed and pushed. Clinton backed away and backed away, accepted it, voted into law. And if you ask the American people, that was the single best legislation of their lifetime because it did so much good for so many people.

[Gavin Newsom]

Frank, I'm curious and you know, it's interesting. Just we can go down the welfare conversation, which is fascinating to me, and I don't mean to just to move off it because I want to sort of reconnect and re. Engage and a deeper understanding of what you said a moment ago about the need to have someone that can speak in those aspirational tones, that has a strategy that is not only engaging, but is willing to engage people across the aisle. You've referenced on multiple occasions, and I want to get back to Booker, but you referenced Corey as well. But I'm curious, are we in an environment where we reward any good behavior whatsoever, or is this an environment where there's even the capacity to do what you suggest must be done?

[Frank Luntz]

Okay, you're asking the correct question. I'm going to give you an answer that is correct. But it's not what I want to give, which is, no, we're not. We're not in that environment. We punish people. The kinder you are, the more we hate you, the more we think you're hiding something, the bigger your heart. We ask the question, what's the most important attribute in a governor? Kindness and compassion comes in second to last.

[Gavin Newsom]

Whoa.

[Frank Luntz]

Intelligence is at the bottom also.

[Gavin Newsom]

Wow.

[Frank Luntz]

We're rewarding bad behavior, we're rewarding people and we Want accountability, which is good behavior. We want someone who says what they mean, means what they say and does what they say. That's all good. But that heart and that soul and that thing that's inside that allows us to feel people's pain. Not only do we not reward it, we even punish it, even suggest that that makes us soft. I want to point out, because I would have forgotten and I would have been mad. Your debate with Ron DeSantis. I'm on his side 90% of the time. And you out debated him. You out communicated him because you added a human devel, a human component to it. Wait, go. Your viewers should go back and watch that debate. Was it just one on Fox?

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah. Just one with Sean Hannity. Yeah.

[Frank Luntz]

And Hannity was against you.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Frank Luntz]

You had the moderator against you. You had your opponent against you, and you had an audience against you, sir. You did incredibly well because you added the human dynamic to it, which is not going to get you nominated for president. It's not going to raise your approval rating for California. These are things that the public does not care about. The Democrats want you to beat up on Trump.

[Gavin Newsom]

That's right.

[Frank Luntz]

They don't want you. They're not asking you for a better vision. They want you to take him on and punch him.

[Gavin Newsom]

That's right.

[Frank Luntz]

Guess what? That'll solve nothing. That'll get us nowhere. And so the stuff that I do now, my. The Republican side thinks I'm way too soft. Tucker Carlson calls me a traitor. And on the Democratic side, they don't trust me because they know where my background is. They know where my principles and my values lie.

[Gavin Newsom]

Right.

[Frank Luntz]

And yet I'm right in the middle. And I don't have a country. I don't have people that I can get behind. Where's Joe Manchin now? He's out of office. The former governor of of Maryland, Larry Hogan, Joe Lieberman, the great Joe Lieberman, John McCain. These are statesmen who are ridiculed and laughed at and condemned and they were the best of America. And it's not a little bit of you, sir, and a little bit of me. It's that middle ground, the center of the screen, trying to get right there where we overlap. We're not trying to get there now. We're all on the edges and it's destroying the country.

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[Gavin Newsom]

Frank, is that because, I mean, society becomes how we behave. We are our behaviors and everything we've talked about has happened, quote, unquote, on our watch. And I say that broadly, not as an elected official, but as, you know, as a father of four that lives in this state and wants to see a better future for my kids. Who's responsible? Are we responsible? Are elected officials responsible? Is it something more insidious? Are the algorithms responsible? I mean, what's your sense of the moment? And how do we. I mean, we have to sort of, it seems to me to diagnose it more deeply, to then begin to sort of work our way out of it.

[Frank Luntz]

No, I'm not sure about diagnosing because I think we all know it's John McCain. When a woman stood up in a town hall and said that Barack Obama was a Muslim, McCain quietly and calmly and civilly said, no, ma' am, that's not true.

[Gavin Newsom]

It's a great moment, great moment in.

[Frank Luntz]

The debates between them. I remember in the 2008 Republican debate that John McCain was cracking a joke about Hillary Clinton saying that she wanted to spend a million dollars to celebrate Woodstock. McCain didn't support it. He didn't even get to Woodstock. He was locked up at that moment. And everybody laughed. This is the we've lost that kind of campaign right now. We demonize each other. It's social media, but it's more than social media. It's the fact that moms will not take away the phone, will not unplug the computer. I say this to every parent watching or grandparent. Your child is getting addicted as we speak. Your child is losing the ability to make independent decisions and thoughts and engage human beings in a real way because they're stuck on the web. And you parents, don't disconnect that computer. Don't say, you're not going to be on your phone. And I know how hard it is to be a mom right now. I know that your daughter's going to say to you, I hate you. I'm not coming to dinner. Better that she says she hates you than actually grows to do so because of social media.

[Gavin Newsom]

Do you think, at the core, I mean, that that has in more ways, on more days, that has more to say about why we're in this predicament that we're in.

[Frank Luntz]

It's our behavior magnified 10 times by social media. And then. And I'm going to hold your. The woman who I think wants to take your job, I'm going to hold her accountable as well.

[Gavin Newsom]

You're referring to Kamala Harris.

[Frank Luntz]

Yes. We all know how Trump communicates to people. And I ask a very simple question, and I'm trying not to get canceled by him. But the fact is, you ask parents, you ask Trump voters, do you want your children to talk the way Donald Trump talks? And they say no. They love him, they want his agenda, but they don't want their kids to sound the way that he does. And I know his response would be that he has the most wonderful vocabulary. We've all put together videos of how he shoots sound reporters, how he calls them dumb, how he says it's not just a matter of being wrong. You're an idiot using that language. We don't want our kids to talk that way, but we also want our kids to tell the truth and to tell us what's right about themselves, not what's wrong about the opposition. Vice President Harris never said what she was going to do in the first hour or the first day. Her ads against Trump were brilliant. And by the way, she beat him in the debate.

[Gavin Newsom]

Oh, yeah.

[Frank Luntz]

Played him in the debate.

[Gavin Newsom]

Oh, yeah.

[Frank Luntz]

And everyone thinks so. Except Trump has polls that show that he won by 30 or 40 or 50 points. He never showed them. We never saw them. But Vice President Harris had the opportunity to offer a different vision, and she never did. She told us what was wrong about Donald Trump and never told us what was right about herself. So she bears some of the blame.

[Gavin Newsom]

You're the master pollster. Is that not what the polls said she needed to do in order to get out the vote? Or did you reflect differently on your own analysis that they were looking for a compelling alternative vision?

[Frank Luntz]

They were looking for it in the polling. The public said they didn't trust her. If you don't trust her, there's a reason why. It's not that they shot, thought that she was a liar. It's that they didn't know where she was. They said this again and again in the CNN focus groups, in the stuff that was happening in the media, polls that were being done not My stuff. Where does she stand on prices? What's she going to do? What is she going to do in immigration? What was her most famous comment during the campaign? It was her interview on the View and she said, I wouldn't do anything differently. How can you say that? Joe Biden was aol. He was not there, he was not present. And there's nothing you would do differently. I recognize your need to be loyal. I recognize your desire not to fracture the Democratic Party. But the American people were struggling back then as they're struggling right now. And they needed to know what she would have done. And Governor, I'm going to give you what she could have done. It was three weeks from the election. She chose not to go on Joe Rogan. She never engaged with Stephen A. Smith. These are people who listen to beyond traditional politics. They invited her. She didn't go. And in the end, she was on Anderson Cooper on cnn and he begins the town hall with immigration and he's hostile to her. It's tough on her. And she should have said, and I quote, anderson, I could answer your questions. I can answer the questions of the American people sitting right in front of me right now and I'm going to choose them. So let me do something I've not done before. Let me give you five minutes on exactly what I'm going to do in the first hour. What is the first piece of legislation I'm going to sign, then I'm going to do the first day. And she would have this conversation and then Anderson would cut her off after five minutes and she turned to him and say, no, Anderson, I'm not done yet. The American people have the right to know what I'm going to do and I have the responsibility to tell them. And for the next 30 minutes, as he keeps trying to jump in, she keeps saying to them, y' all like this, y' all want this? And of course the answer would be yes. And so she'd have this personal one on one engagement with 100 people in the audience, Anderson trying to get in and that would have elected her president.

[Gavin Newsom]

Do you really, I mean, she think you're of the opinion and I appreciate this. It's always so we're all, you know, looking back, you know, 107 day sprint and obviously the highlights, the view, everything else. And there's been so many diagnosis of what went wrong was or, you know, to your point about distinguishing herself a little bit from the president, obviously the amount of time, the fact there wasn't an open primary more broadly beyond her the incumbent penalty, which some had assessed. Issues around immigration, inflation, interest rates and Israel certainly played a role, I imagine, in some respects. But you think fundamentally this was an election where Vice President Harris could have won.

[Frank Luntz]

Trump had 91 indictment counts against him. He'd been impeached twice. He was now the oldest president to run for office now that Biden was out. And he had all these moments that one questions, by the way, eating the dogs, eating the cats, how the heck do you elect that? He said, behind it, right? Still one. And yes, he's a great communicator. He knows how to talk to his supporters. But she blew it. And she should wake up every day thinking to herself, how did I lose to this guy?

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, I hope she doesn't do that. I want her to move on. And we all do in context, but I think all of us need to reflect on what happened, what didn't happen. You were pretty pointed, weren't you, after that debate? Not only that Harris won, but that potentially Trump lost the election that night on the basis of some of those comments. Were you. I mean, did, did you reflect? I mean, I've. Was. Was just your point, I mean, why. There was no movement in the polls. It seemed, regardless of Trump claiming he, he crushed it. And Harris, I think objectively did, but didn't seem to move anybody.

[Frank Luntz]

I never saw this before. Never in American history has a debate been less impactful on the election.

[Gavin Newsom]

And she crushed it. I mean, she really did. I was very inspired, was one of the spin room people, so I'm paid to say that, as they say, but I really believe it. And the further distance I have, the more impressed I was with her performance.

[Frank Luntz]

Therefore. Therefore, the more critical you should be of her campaign on that night. She won the election. Why did Trump win by such a big margin? It wasn't even that for modern days, it wasn't that close. Why did he win? Michigan and Pennsylvania and Wisconsin and other states and Arizona. He won them because people thought he said what he meant and meant what he said. And while they didn't like how he articulated it, which is exactly what's happening right now, they wanted that agenda. Why did she lose when she had the election? She had more money than God, had an amazing debate performance that everyone saw, there was never another debate. She gone into the lead there. Why did she lose? She lost because of herself. In the end, it's not just what's going on around you. You have to tell people what you are for. You have to tell them what you will do. And you have to be able to show that you can get it done. I remember what a big deal it was when she was made the immigration czar. I was around. I saw this. And then during the campaign, she tries to run away from it. I wasn't important. I had nothing to do. Own it. Be sincere with people. Let them see you. Acknowledge, as I'm doing right here, right now, I got that election wrong. I knew Trump was going to win two weeks before, but I knew he was going to lose after that debate because no one had ever recovered from such a bad debate performance. Governor, the public deserves the truth. The public deserves candor. They have the right to know when we got it wrong. And if you can't admit you got it wrong, then you probably don't deserve to have your position. And they need to know what you're going to do so you don't get it wrong in the future. I think we've lost not just a sense of civility and decency, but I think we've lost what made America so great, which was this pursuit of the truth. To acknowledge that separate but equal was not equal. To acknowledge that we could be a more perfect union. The idea that we're always focused on doing better for our children and the next generation, and now we try to cover stuff up, and now we try to accept the status quo. The same people who screamed and hollered about prices and voted for Donald Trump because he thought that he would make their life more livable. Look at the stock market. Look at 401ks. Those same people are saying, well, we need an adjustment in the stock market. It was too high. You couldn't afford your food and fuel, and now you actually want your retirement savings to be reduced because it's artificially high. We have to tell the truth. Just for once. I want to use the F word, but I don't. Because I want you to put this out.

[Gavin Newsom]

Bring it on. It's been used often here, Frank.

[Frank Luntz]

Yes, but I'm actually so serious now. Embrace the truth. Seek the truth. Fight for the truth, and demand that people tell you it. And when they say to you they weren't wrong, make them prove it. And when you say to them, I got a better answer. Show me, please.

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[Gavin Newsom]

All that being said, Trump voters, you've been doing the focus groups. You did the assessment of his first 100 days with everything you just said, everything you laid out, and the imperative of being honest and accountable and speaking truth, no one's moved. His base has not moved.

[Frank Luntz]

Right.

[Gavin Newsom]

I mean, remarkably, despite their 401ks, despite the impacts on prices, the uncertainty as it relates to the tariff and all the other sort of chaos that one would have otherwise expected, perhaps, but to, I think, the degree that certainly is.

[Frank Luntz]

Alarming because they'll say to you, as they did in a very articulate way, we want action. And Joe Biden was. Four years of inaction, four years of empty rhetoric without the intensity of getting it done.

[Gavin Newsom]

And they, Frank, and forgive me just for cutting you there, but they didn't see the CHIPS and Science Act. They didn't see the infrastructure bill. They didn't see 400 bipartisan bills. They didn't see the Safer Community act as relates to gun violence and mental health. They didn't see the ira. They didn't see those as accomplishments. Is it because the rhetoric didn't back it up? Why was he, from your perspective, missing in action or were all those things trivial in the context of the American people?

[Frank Luntz]

They're not trivial. And normally I try to look at the camera, but now I'm looking at you in my screen, so I can see a reaction here. You actually hit it right on the head. They didn't see it. They didn't see the jobs from the CHIPS Act. They didn't see the roads getting built from the infrastructure. They didn't see efforts at accountability. All the things that you just mentioned. No, sir, they didn't see it. They heard about it, but it wasn't in front of their eyes. And what did they see? People coming over the wall, people coming across the border at night. New York City, where people were illegal immigrants, were seen as murderers. That's what they saw. They didn't see prices coming down. They knew the price of eggs. They knew the price of a gallon of gas. That's what they saw. In your question. You actually answered it. They didn't see it. And this is a challenge for you in the last two years of your administration, if you want people to see how California, California's changed, they have to internalize it. It's not enough for you to say it. You have to show them visually, and they have to believe that it's true.

[Gavin Newsom]

I love that.

[Frank Luntz]

One more thing about Trump, please. They supported his agenda and still do. They want an end to illegal immigration, and so they're willing to turn a blind eye if some people get kicked out and shouldn't be. They desperately want the US On a level playing field versus China. So they're willing to support tariffs if that's what makes China give American products, American services and the American workforce and even shake, which they do not do. No, they didn't see waste and they desperately want an end to waste for Washington spending. They don't like Elon Musk with a chainsaw, but they do like the fact that agencies that cannot prove that they're delivering. They do want those agencies cut. That's why they support Trump not for the execution, but for the agenda.

[Gavin Newsom]

So, Frank, what is your, you know, and I love just in the limited time, just pivot a little bit because I think what you know, where we are and where we're going. I mean, I think about the reflect you're reflecting on Harris's campaign a little bit and in trying to seek some truth telling, particularly from the Democrats, to understand and own it. Where do you see the Democratic Party right now? And where do you see Donald Trump and the Republic and perhaps separately, where do you see the Republican Party independent of Trump? And if I may just to extend the long question, any advice for the Democratic Party, any advice for the Republican Party independent of maga, perhaps, and Trump and Trumpism itself?

[Frank Luntz]

I have to start somewhere. So we'll start with the Democrats. The public supports Trump's agenda. They just don't support the execution. So tell me how you're going to address immigration but do so in a way that delivers better results. How are you going to address the unlevel playing field between the US And China that has genuinely hurt American manufacturing, but to do so in a way that guarantees that factories can open up here and where American, the workforce is respected for what it does. They do want cuts to waste for Washington spending. They just want a scalpel and not a chainsaw. So I'm looking for the Democrat who surrounds himself with the word better, who emphasizes we can do it better than that. We hear you, we understand you. We know you're pissed off. We know you want us to fight. Don't get mad, don't get even, get ahead, who focuses on leapfrogging the current resistance to and it's not acquiescence. It's not Chuck Schumer at all. It's Hakeem Jeffries at his best. Because Hakeem Jeffries at his best offers solutions that will address Medicare and Medicaid, that seeks to hold Washington accountable without punishing the hardworking taxpayer. And in the end, and this is the great way to end the Democratic part respects the hard working taxpayer. Democrats just want to tax, you say you just want to tax the rich, the wealthy, the affluent, but every time you call for raising the death tax, for example, that punishes family businesses, every time you set that number, the people who actually hire, who create jobs are those who are successful. I live in a beautiful home in la, as you know, I will only be here this year maybe 25 days. And I really wanted to do this face to face because I appreciate you and I wanted to express that you're going to be a leading Democratic candidate. Don't punish success, find a way to share it, find a way to spread it. But if you punish it, you'll never get elected because in the end Americans will not support that. They do believe that we have a wealth gap that's out of control. It's one of the best Democratic issues, this income gap. But they don't want to take the wealthy down. They want to bring the paycheck to paycheck voter up. And I don't think Democrats fully understand that.

[Gavin Newsom]

So you think it's big mistake where Bernie and AOC are going in terms of just the oligarchy frame. You think it just reinforces a frame that you don't think is well, you know, is more broadly well received. Despite polling, even your own polling are estimates saying 62,3% of Americans support a wealth tax.

[Frank Luntz]

It gets them. And someone was, you saw the presentation public about this. Yeah, it gets them noticed. Get some crowds of 20 or 30,000 people, which is a lot, and makes them relevant to the debate, but it doesn't get them elected president. And that's the difference. And there needs to be someone who says, look, this is a great country, we just have a few of our. We need to fix what's wrong without undermining what's right about America. And that's not what they do. They're too negative and they're too on the nose and it will bring about significant Democratic support, but it will not put them in the oval office in 2028.

[Gavin Newsom]

You reminded me of Bill Clinton's famous line, there's nothing wrong with America that can't be fixed by what's right with America.

[Frank Luntz]

Yes, and I believe that that's his line, I believe he wrote that. And that's an understanding of where America is at right now. Because we're very pessimistic. We believe the future is going to be worse than the present. We believe that the present is worse than the past. But we're not going to vote for someone who's inherently negative. We're not going to vote for someone who's going to take. We want someone who's going to give. And on the Republican side, there has to be a better message than we need to get even with them, then we need to punish them. Because in the end, that does not bring the country together. There needs to be a message that says, yes, they got it wrong and you got hurt, but you're not forgotten, you're not ignored and we haven't betrayed you. We will write this country. Remember, Governor, it's the working class union voter that put Donald Trump in office and took that election away from Kamala Harris. It's the Latino who said, you want to take all this to help the black community. What about us Latino men voted Trump for the first time ever. These are fundamental changes that have not happened. And the last thing I'd say is among young men, they've come to see more in Trump that's better for their future than Vice President Harris. I don't know if it's what Trump got right. I don't know what Harris got wrong. But these are big, fundamental shifts that the Democrats have to address, and I don't see them addressing it. This is why, by the way, at your best, you address it at your best, you talk about this and you engage it. You kicked DeSantis ass in that debate. And I think he had the issues on his side, he had the moderator on his side. But every time you go, and this is California and I want to, we don't want to get into California, but this is part of the Democratic Party, you have a group of Democrats that get you to stand up and cheer and give you standing ovations and you're pumping your fist in the air and that gets you noticed, but that will not get you votes.

[Gavin Newsom]

God bless. And I want to end as I promised, as we began. And that's going back to Cory Booker. You know, you, you were outspoken in your praise and you, you've referenced it a few times in this conversation. That was 25 hour marathon. Corey's. Corey's. I, I consider him sort of extended family. I've known him forever. He's an actual friend, not one of those political friends. So I have a strong bias towards him and he's just deeply sincere and I think he's a wonderful human being. Most importantly, forget politics. For me, my judgment is about the character of the person. So I love the fact that you thought that was a special speech, but let's end. Why did you think that was a special speech? And what did it represent in this moment that you think needs to be more represented more broadly in moments to come?

[Frank Luntz]

He told stories of real people, he told stories of real life. And he didn't just bash the president. He spoke in favor of them, of uplifting them, of celebrating them. Cory Booker has the most positive message for the country, which is not what Democrats wanted to hear in 2020, which is why he didn't get the nomination. My challenge to Senator Booker is can you put that 25 hours into a bottle, have the guts to say, I'm not going to beat up on Trump. I'm going to tell you where we could be as a country, where we could be as a society, and I'm going to celebrate the positive that's America as I address the pain and the suffering. If he can do that with the discipline of not getting drawn into Trump, and if Democrats realize that they're going to get elected in 2028, they rise or fall based on their own positions, not Trump, based on their ability to do it better and more favorably and more hopefully and with greater celebration. We don't celebrate anything anymore. We condemn and we dismiss and we disregard and we hate. If Booker can be the, can be the antidote to that, he'll be the Democratic nominee and he'll be the next president. And if he can't do it, maybe Mitch Landrieu can. And if he can't do it, maybe Wes Moore can. If they can't do it, sir, maybe you can. But it's not taking the easy road.

[Gavin Newsom]

I hear you.

[Frank Luntz]

It's taking the better road.

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, what a way to end. Frank, thank you for all your insight. Thanks for the history. Thanks for joining us today. I'm very grateful for this opportunity.

[Frank Luntz]

And Governor, the idea that this idiot from West Harvard, Connecticut, who flunked calculus as a freshman in college who had trouble holding his first job, gets invited to have this conversation with the governor of California. What a life. Thank you.

[Gavin Newsom]

I love it. What a life. I appreciate that, Frank. Thank you. Thanks for being with us.

[Frank Luntz]

Cheers.

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[Gavin Newsom]

You're listening to an I Heart podcast.