And, This Is Charlie Kirk

Summary

Podcast Summary: "And, This Is Charlie Kirk" – This is Gavin Newsom

Introduction

In the March 6, 2025 episode of This is Gavin Newsom, hosted by iHeartPodcasts, Governor Gavin Newsom engages in a spirited and candid conversation with Charlie Kirk, founder of Turning Point USA. This episode delves deep into the current political landscape, focusing on youth engagement, higher education, wokeism, housing affordability, transgender issues in sports, and the dynamics of cancel culture. Both hosts bring their unique perspectives to the table, fostering a dialogue that highlights the growing ideological divides and the strategies each side employs to influence public opinion.

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1. Youth Vote and Turning Point USA's Influence

Governor Newsom opens the discussion by acknowledging Charlie Kirk's recent activities on college campuses, praising his efforts to engage young voters. Kirk shares the remarkable success of Turning Point USA in mobilizing the youth vote, attributing a significant shift away from the Democratic Party.

Charlie Kirk [00:26]: "I've been at this for 13 years, and it's been a wild movement, really accelerated. Once President Trump kind of came on the scene right around, I'd say, 20, 21. We had a goal. Could we move the youth vote 10 points over 10 years? And we did it in four years, not 10 large."

2. Education and Political Affiliation

The conversation transitions to the role of higher education in shaping political beliefs. Kirk criticizes the Democratic Party for its stronghold on college campuses, suggesting that higher education institutions have become ideological echo chambers that favor Democratic values.

Charlie Kirk [12:00]: "The Democrat party... largely the gatekeepers of that kind of ideological, intellectual regime."

Governor Newsom responds by sharing California's initiatives to provide diverse educational pathways beyond the traditional four-year degrees, emphasizing the state's commitment to career-oriented education.

Gavin Newsom [15:02]: "I'm completely aligned with you in terms of a focus and energy there and looking at pre-apprenticeships, apprenticeships... supporting a life without a degree."

3. Wokeism and College Campuses

Kirk delves into the concept of "wokeism," arguing that it has infiltrated college campuses and corporate America, leading to a homogenized and authoritarian environment that stifles debate and fosters resentment among young men.

Charlie Kirk [12:30]: "We're the ones that challenge the COVID vaccine. We're the ones that don't necessarily believe the government when it says that we should keep on sending money to Ukraine."

He contends that this ideological dominance has alienated a significant portion of the population, leading to a backlash that Turning Point USA is capitalizing on to build its movement.

4. Housing Affordability in California

A substantial portion of the discussion focuses on California's housing crisis. Governor Newsom outlines the state's efforts to increase housing production, citing legislative reforms and confronting NIMBYism (Not In My Back Yard) as primary challenges.

Gavin Newsom [66:25]: "We've had one big thing we all are waiting for... the issue of interest rates. We are making big progress."

Kirk critiques the state's slow progress despite having significant political control, suggesting that bureaucratic hurdles and local resistance impede effective solutions.

5. Transgender Issues in Sports

The hosts address the contentious issue of transgender athletes in female sports. Both agree on the importance of fairness, but diverge on the approach to addressing the policies that allow transgender individuals to compete according to their gender identity.

Charlie Kirk [22:47]: "Youth should be off limits. I think that's a... that's a major political force."

Governor Newsom emphasizes the need for compassion while upholding fairness, highlighting legislative measures aimed at balancing these concerns.

6. Cancel Culture vs. Boycotting

A nuanced discussion unfolds around the concepts of cancel culture and boycotting. Kirk distinguishes between centralized cancel culture—where those in power silence dissent—and decentralized boycotting, where individuals collectively withdraw support from entities for specific reasons.

Charlie Kirk [54:13]: "Cancel culture is someone in power using their power to cancel. That is cancer culture."

Governor Newsom aligns partially with this view, criticizing both extremes and advocating for constructive dialogue over punitive measures.

7. Media Strategy and Podcasting

The conversation shifts to media strategies, with Kirk praising the effectiveness of long-form podcasting in reaching diverse audiences. He contrasts this with what he perceives as the Democratic Party's inability to engage in similar formats, attributing their lower favorability ratings to a lack of dynamic communication.

Charlie Kirk [48:21]: "If you want to earn the respect of forgotten America, you have to show them that you can intellectually joust with no script, no hard breaks, no producers in the ears, no teleprompters."

Governor Newsom acknowledges the challenge but highlights California's efforts to embrace diverse media to better connect with constituents.

8. Homelessness and Quality of Life

Back in the housing discussion, both hosts express concern over homelessness in California. Newsom details the state's initiatives to combat this issue, including constructing affordable housing and implementing regulatory reforms. Kirk underscores the moral and economic imperative to prioritize quality of life improvements.

Gavin Newsom [66:34]: "I have a yimby mindset on all this stuff. I'm on the front lines of this."

9. Presidential Interactions and Leadership

Towards the end of the episode, the dialogue touches on interactions with national leaders. Governor Newsom shares his experiences meeting with both President Biden and former President Trump, reflecting on the differing leadership styles and their impacts on political discourse.

Gavin Newsom [69:08]: "I just spent almost 90 minutes with him in the Oval Office a couple of weeks ago."

Charlie Kirk lauds Trump's dynamic approach while critiquing the perceived passivity and lack of engagement from Democratic leaders.

Charlie Kirk [71:07]: "He's a machine. He'll take every call. ... you got to give him credit."

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Conclusion

The episode of This is Gavin Newsom featuring Charlie Kirk offers a comprehensive exploration of the current political and social challenges facing the United States. From the mobilization of the youth vote and the critique of higher education's political leanings to the pressing issues of housing affordability and transgender policies in sports, both hosts provide incisive commentary on the state of American politics. The dialogue underscores the deepening ideological divides and the strategic maneuvers each side employs to influence public opinion and policy. Through their engaging exchange, Newsom and Kirk illuminate the complexities of navigating a polarized landscape, emphasizing the need for honest conversations and multifaceted approaches to address the nation's most pressing issues.

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Notable Quotes

• Charlie Kirk [00:26]: "We did it in four years, not 10 large."
• Charlie Kirk [12:00]: "Democrat party ... gatekeepers of that kind of ideological, intellectual regime."
• Gavin Newsom [15:02]: "Looking at pre-apprenticeships, apprenticeships... supporting a life without a degree."
• Charlie Kirk [22:47]: "Youth should be off limits. I think that's a major political force."
• Charlie Kirk [54:13]: "Cancel culture is someone in power using their power to cancel. That is cancer culture."
• Charlie Kirk [48:21]: "Intellectually joust with no script, no hard breaks, no producers in the ears, no teleprompters."
• Gavin Newsom [66:25]: "Issue of interest rates. We are making big progress."
• Charlie Kirk [71:07]: "He's a machine. He'll take every call. ... you got to give him credit."

Transcript

[Gavin Newsom]

This is Gavin Newsom. And this is Charlie Kirk. By the way, what brings you to California, your favorite state?

[Charlie Kirk]

It is my. Ooh, this thing's falling. It is my favorite state in the union. You're doing such a great job here, by the way. No, I'm honored to be on the show. Thank you.

[Gavin Newsom]

You were just down at usc.

[Charlie Kirk]

I was at USC yesterday. Drew a big crowd.

[Gavin Newsom]

By the way, I knew you were at USC early because my. My niece, who's graduated, she was the.

[Charlie Kirk]

One with the MAGA hat on.

[Gavin Newsom]

She was. By the way, I do have to watch, but she was down there and she was like.

[Charlie Kirk]

She said, you never know. These kids are going to the right.

[Gavin Newsom]

I'm. I'm aware. She said, this crowd's crazy. I said. She said. And she. And the only reason she said. She would have said it, perhaps otherwise, but she knew you were coming on. The worst part, though, Charlie, no bs. True story. Literally last night, trying to put my son to bed, he's like, no, Dad, I just. What time. What time's Charlie can be here?

[Charlie Kirk]

What time?

[Gavin Newsom]

What time? And I'm like, dude, you're in school tomorrow. He's 13. He's like, no, no. This morning. Wakes up at 6 something. He's like, I'm coming. I'm like, cr. He literally would not leave the house.

[Charlie Kirk]

Did you let him to take off school?

[Gavin Newsom]

No, he didn't. Of course not. He's not here for a good reason.

[Charlie Kirk]

But the point is, you canceled school for, like, two years. Once.

[Gavin Newsom]

One year. The point is. The point. Which is you are making a damn dentist.

[Charlie Kirk]

Thank you. I'm kidding. I'm.

[Gavin Newsom]

No, but I know, and I. But I appreciate that. I mean, it's the reason you're here, because I think people need to understand your success, your influence, what you've been up to, and the fact that you're on these college campus doors. And to your point, man, you just open up. I mean, you're like, ask me anything.

[Charlie Kirk]

Anything. Challenge me, challenge me, whatever.

[Gavin Newsom]

When did this. When did this whole thing. When did you start putting.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah, I mean, we. I've been at this for 13 years, and it's been a wild movement, really accelerated. Once President Trump kind of came on the scene right around, I'd say, 20, 21. We had a goal. Could we move the youth vote 10 points over 10 years? And we.

[Gavin Newsom]

Was it literally you sat down and put that numerical together?

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah. Like, can we move it 10 points over 10 years? Ish. You know, approximate. Because our whole hypothesis was. And we, you know, we did this alongside President Trump and his great team was that this demographic is disproportionately to the Democrat side. We believe Democrats were taking them for granted. We think that your side had no message whatsoever and an ideological monopoly. We saw some of the fault lines there. And to President Trump's credit, he also harmonized with the strategy by going on podcasting and using TikTok. But yeah, I mean, we did it in four years, not 10 large. In part thanks to you guys.

[Gavin Newsom]

We'll get to that and sincerely get to that, because I want to stress test some of those fault lines as it relates to the reality of our party and where we are today vis a vis your ascendancy. Not just individually as an organization, but where was that sort of moment for you? Because it's interesting. I mean, you're such a young guy, so it's not a deep biography here. It's not like 20 years in the wilderness writing his first book, getting a TV show that was canceled, coming back. It's more just this immediacy of ascendancy. Was it, I mean, were you sort of born and bred with an ideological mindset or were you more open minded and you started to realize a lot of BS was out there?

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah, I've always been conservative, obviously grown in that over the last, you know, 10ish years. Was more libertarian. I'd say in the first couple of years as to be expected as I got married and have kids, become more conservative. But no, look, just one of the things we saw in the last couple of years that the Democrats completely ignored and your side was basically not acknowledging it was happening, was the crisis that young people were experiencing.

[Gavin Newsom]

Right.

[Charlie Kirk]

That, I mean, just one. It's the first time in America's history that a 30 year old is going to have it worse off than their parents. It's a breakdown of the social compact. They are the most alcohol addicted, most drug addicted, most suicidal, most depressed, most medicated generation in history. And the message that was largely being fed to a lot of young people was lower your expectations. You're not going to have the same American dream that your parents would have. And we saw this as an opportunity, especially with young men. And again, this got ridiculed a lot by the press that, oh, you know, they're creating this manosphere thing, look, they're half of the population and necessary for any society and civilization to succeed, which is to have both strong men and strong women. And we went about that in a very unique and creative way. And again, the President became a cultural phenomenon. Where no matter what you threw at this guy, he rose above it. You even have to give him credit. I mean, basically 700 years in federal prison. You know, states tried to kick him off the ballot. I know you spoke out against it, but California did have a faction that tried to kick him off the ballot.

[Gavin Newsom]

Right.

[Charlie Kirk]

And despite all of that, of course, being shot, and that was kind of the crescendo of all of it. He kind of became this figure of an American comeback story. So he personified what a lot of young people, especially young men, wanted back in their politics, which was an ascendant rebel attitude against these institutions that have failed them so miserably.

[Gavin Newsom]

It's interesting. So what would. And you keep saying we, which is interesting. And that's the organization that you created, Turning Point.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah. We would be like conservative movement, maga. But yes, I have Turning Point, usa, Turning Point, Action, Charlie Kirk Show. But when I'm saying we, I mean more specifically, kind of those of us that saw this political moment three or four years ago.

[Gavin Newsom]

Right. But you were at this even before then.

[Charlie Kirk]

Correct? Yeah.

[Gavin Newsom]

So when did you. When did you decide to sort of just shift your gear? I mean, you were working for another Kirk for his campaign. Mark Kirk. Yeah, Mark Kirk. So you had a political. Obviously strong political leanings or at least desire to sort of be in the political sphere, but not in elected office necessarily. You just want to be behind the scenes.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah. I mean, like the biography's been written about a million times, but I mean, didn't. Didn't go to college. Wanted to go to West Point, didn't get in. I'm an entrepreneur.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah, Love it.

[Charlie Kirk]

Started this organization and it became far more successful than I ever could have realized. And, yeah, the kind of. As we started to grow the organization, I recognized that there was a ideological imbalance on a lot of these college campuses. And we wanted to go about trying to offer a counterpoint of, I know, conservative, you know, pro freedom, pro Liberty, you know, America first ideas.

[Gavin Newsom]

And you saw the college campuses as sort of the underbelly of the opportunity, or is it just more just experiential in terms of your own sort of animus towards.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, I mean, I mean, you have a sitting population of about 20 million kids that are there for four years.

[Gavin Newsom]

There's that.

[Charlie Kirk]

And also, again, the. You had nowhere to go but up. I mean, 70%. When we started in 2012, 75% of kids on college campuses would vote for Democrats.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Charlie Kirk]

Now, fast forward to today, this last election cycle, Democrats lost the youth vote in Michigan. Nearly lost that in Wisconsin, nearly lost in Arizona. So our goal was, hey, let's move at 10 points. We moved at 13 points. And this is important for your audience to know and for Democrats to reckon with, of which I see no signs that Democrats care at all that they're losing the next generation. We're drawing record crowds. Our ranks are expanding. The most support that President Trump has is voters under 30. 60% of voters under 30 support President Trump. That's according to Rasmussen. You might say that's a little rich. It might be, but it's directionally true.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Charlie Kirk]

And, and one of the main reasons that this has all been happening is that baby boomers have actually seen their wealth increased the last four years. They don't buy into this whole idea that our institutions are broken or that they're in need of massive bottom up, revolutionary change. And we see that actually KAMALA Harris did three points better with baby boomers than she did in 2020.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Charlie Kirk]

And the number one story that, you know, James Carville, who everyone takes seriously for some reason, should have been saying is like, all Kamala Harris had to do was just do the same with younger voters that Joe Biden did in 2020 and she would be president right now.

[Gavin Newsom]

And remind us what Joe Biden did in 2020.

[Charlie Kirk]

13 points better.

[Gavin Newsom]

So in terms of just again, this.

[Charlie Kirk]

Is kind of a combination of exit polling. So it's really, it's a difficult science to pinpoint.

[Gavin Newsom]

So that goes back then, I mean, to your point, in order to do that, you've got to stand for something. You've got to assert yourself. You got to have a strategy and you got to implement it.

[Charlie Kirk]

You also have to not believe crazy stuff.

[Gavin Newsom]

Believe crazy. I mean, and so for you, I mean, it's interesting just, you know, this last week, I guess you were at usc, you were at University of Florida. You had thousands and thousands of folks. You get to your point, your crowds are growing. 2012, where were you were coming in and people were, I mean, you, you were take, I mean, yeah, you were like getting threats. I mean, it, you still get tons of threats.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yep.

[Gavin Newsom]

But it was, I mean, what was it like just to paint a picture of you walking to a college campus.

[Charlie Kirk]

Had no money, no connections and no idea what I was doing. And yeah, I mean, we were, I didn't even have a social media account. I mean, it was just the ultimate startup.

[Gavin Newsom]

And what did you just say? I'm available. And you started at this sort of debate?

[Charlie Kirk]

No, it was, it was even more scrappy. I Would literally show up to UW Madison with a card table and a big cardboard sign saying debate me. You know, like here's some provocative 20 something years ago. And I wouldn't even film it. I was, I was 18 or 19.

[Gavin Newsom]

18 or 19. And what? And you just what, by the way? Where does that end? And sincerely to be able to debate anybody at any time, anywhere and in that environment, it's just, just, I mean, just. You can, you can say it's just confidence or it's just absolute. I mean, narcissists. What is it? I mean just. Or just.

[Charlie Kirk]

I don't, I hope it's not the other. But no, I mean, I guess it would just be. I mean, at the most charitable reading, it could be confidence. It also just be that I, I wanted to try and challenge the predominant view. I always loved debate and disagreement. I love the kind of spar.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Charlie Kirk]

And yeah, I also find it to be exciting and I wanted to try to, you know, figure out where my idea is actually that good and to kind of draw stress test. Yeah.

[Gavin Newsom]

And are you 10x better than you were in 2012 at the format?

[Charlie Kirk]

Probably.

[Gavin Newsom]

Probably. And you study it or you just participate? I mean, what have you look at the old great debates or you're reading debating books.

[Charlie Kirk]

You're watching. So. Yeah. And I mean less about debate. I mean debating is a practice that can really only be refined, you know, with lots of routine and reps and repetition. Just more about studying, you know, the great books, philosophy.

[Gavin Newsom]

Right.

[Charlie Kirk]

All those.

[Gavin Newsom]

And so you, and you make a point prior to that, I mean you, to the point you never, you know, you went to community college and I.

[Charlie Kirk]

Didn'T even graduate community college.

[Gavin Newsom]

I didn't even graduate community, which is great, by the way. I was going to college in Marin. I got lucky, got a baseball coach that called me and allowed me to get to a four year university. I was joking with you before we started 960sat. I asked you about your SAT.

[Charlie Kirk]

You said I took the ACT.

[Gavin Newsom]

Took the ACT. Which proves two things. How young you are and how different things were. You were. You grew up in Illinois.

[Charlie Kirk]

I grew up in Illinois, which Midwest was traditionally more of an act.

[Gavin Newsom]

But this has been a point of pride for you that you, you didn't do a four year degree in Midwest.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, yeah, because I represent most of the country. Is that actually still the majority of the country does not have a college degree. And if I may, you know, bluntly critique the Democrat party, you guys have become so college credentialed and educated. That you guys snobbishly look on the muscular class of this country, the people that kept things afloat and running during COVID And yeah, I mean, the majority of the country didn't go to Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Stanford, Caltech or Cal Berkeley. Right. And the Republican Party has become far more representative of them, large in part thanks to Trump. But yeah. And look, I say it with some pride also because as an entrepreneur, I tried to build something right. Not just seek a credential.

[Gavin Newsom]

Love that. And what, and There are what, 11 million folks. There are jobs out there. You make this point all the time.

[Charlie Kirk]

Open jobs that don't require college, do.

[Gavin Newsom]

Not require a college degree. So when you say, and it's interesting because there's sort of that critique of the Democratic Party that we are captured by this sort of college elite. In what respect? I mean, stress test that for a second. Allow me to. What specifically are you referencing in that context?

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, your voters, your voters have become nearly. I mean, the higher you go up the education ladder, the higher the correlation it is that you vote for the Democrat Party. It's almost a one to one with PhD. It's like 75% for master's degrees and it's 65%.

[Gavin Newsom]

Why, why do you think that's the case? What are the issues that sort of are identified in that respect?

[Charlie Kirk]

The sloppy analysis is like, oh, they're smarter, therefore they must be Democrats.

[Gavin Newsom]

Right.

[Charlie Kirk]

And I think that's silly and insane.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah. But any salty.

[Charlie Kirk]

I totally agree. The, the more, the deeper and more profound analysis is that a lot of ideological bubbles that exist on these college campuses, they are homogeneous, not heterodox when it comes to what ideas are expressed. And then secondly, the, the, the value system that you leave on college campuses is high trust of institutions. So the biggest divide in America is not right versus left. It's whether or not you generally trust institutions or you don't trust institutions. And this has been largely inverted the last 20 years.

[Gavin Newsom]

Right.

[Charlie Kirk]

So back in the early 2000s, Democrats were low trust of institutions, Iraq war, anti Bush, anti nsa, anti Patriot act. And that's when you guys had a lot of activist spark and energy that has been completely inverted. So the right is now low trust of institutions where the left is high trust of institutions. We're the ones that challenge the COVID vaccine. We're the ones that think that public health authorities might have lied to us during COVID We're the ones that don't necessarily believe the government when it says that we should keep on sending money to Ukraine Again, that's in a, that's a general rule. There are some exceptions to that. But when you go to college, you are trained to trust the experts, trust the scientists, trust the people that are leaders of authority. And the Democrat party is largely the gatekeepers of that kind of ideological, intellectual regime.

[Gavin Newsom]

It's interesting. And so from your perspective, I mean, as you advocate for people to sort of open up a worldview that is life without a four year degree and all the opportunities that present themselves anew in that respect, are you arguing for the, the disestablishment, the end of higher education?

[Charlie Kirk]

I think it's going to happen no matter what. I mean, in 10 years, artificial intelligence is going to change everything.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Charlie Kirk]

And I don't know what these four year degrees are actually doing to prepare these kids for that. But now as far as, like, I'm not, I mean, my advocating for the end of the pursuit. Pursuit of learning. Of course not. That's one of my big critiques is that at a lot of these schools they're not pursuing what is good, true and beautiful. It's become the oppression Olympics and a weaponized complaint seminar of people sitting in the circle and finding out who's the, who's been offended the most that day. That's not doing anybody any good.

[Gavin Newsom]

No.

[Charlie Kirk]

And in fact it creates a very weak political movement which I think plays into. One of the reasons why we were able to steamroll you guys back in November is that once there's a little opposition against a group of people that have never actually been, you know, had to build the muscle mass of a very difficult and unpredictable world. Whereas those of us that are conservatives, we're insulted all the time. So think about the experience of a kid on a college campus. They say they're graded differently because of their views. They may or may not be right. I think they are, but they're definitely in the ideological minority. Right. You wear a Trump hat on a college campus, at least until we came around, that was like a big sign of cultural rebellion. So you have two choices. You can either stop fighting for what you believe in or you become really tough.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Charlie Kirk]

And you, you create that, that muscle that allows you to then carry and shoulder a heavier burden.

[Gavin Newsom]

Right. And so just, and I don't want to belabor the issues of the establishment plot called higher education. And some have not. You referred to it though. Maybe you align yourself.

[Charlie Kirk]

I wrote a whole book called the College Scan, so.

[Gavin Newsom]

So it sort of, it's sort of stress testing that in the context of. Some would argue the contra argument is, you know, a million dollars more in lifetime earnings, more likely to get married, less likely to get divorced, more likely to be civically engaged and longer life spans with college degrees. And you would say all of this is true.

[Charlie Kirk]

It's just let's not everyone that goes to college graduates, the national graduates.

[Gavin Newsom]

41% drop.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah, 41% dropout. Exactly right. Also, half the kids that graduate college will not even end up using their degree when it comes to the affiliated jobs. So the numbers are true at the highest income. So about 10% of kids that go to college stretch out the averages to be really, really high. And so for example, you go to Caltech to study computer engineering and applied AI. You're crushing it, right? You go to Cal to go study North African lesbian poetry.

[Gavin Newsom]

Like is that an actual degree there?

[Charlie Kirk]

You tell me. Go.

[Gavin Newsom]

I don't know. I mean we fucked it. But I'm not sure that's one of the questions.

[Charlie Kirk]

The fact you don't know.

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, I don't know every single damn course in.

[Charlie Kirk]

But it's a. If the fact it's a. Maybe we got some problems.

[Gavin Newsom]

Well the fact that a lot of people have explored different disciplines like I don't.

[Charlie Kirk]

That's fine. It's just the taxpayer shouldn't have to fund it.

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, I mean increasingly the individuals are funding as you know, it relates to the talk about the inversion of how we fund education. And by the way, just FYI, having just put together a career master plan, we had a master plan in the state of California that created the UC systems, the CSUs and the community college system half century ago. We've applied the same discipline to a career master plan in the state of California. And so I'm completely aligned with you in terms of a focus and energy there and looking at pre apprenticeship apprenticeships, looking not even at apprenticeships in the traditional sense, but valuing and highlighting and signaling the value of, of a life without a degree, et cetera. So I'm not as far off on this as you are. That said, I've just, I've got to admire what you've been able to do. Not to weaponize, but to organize on these college campuses a different point of view. And again, let's talk about some of that. When you go to these college campuses. I love watching your TikTok, which is next level. Clearly that's expressed by my 13 year old son.

[Charlie Kirk]

I want to meet this guy.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah, I actually come into a turning.

[Charlie Kirk]

Point event this summer. Tampa, Florida Student Action Summit.

[Gavin Newsom]

I actually by the way, if you should be concerned. But let me say here, here is why I'm concerned, because you have expressed that I should be concerned as a Democrat, that we're getting, we're getting blobbered.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yes.

[Gavin Newsom]

That you, you figured something out.

[Charlie Kirk]

It's not me. The president first deserves the credit. But why.

[Gavin Newsom]

No, no, hold on. You were at this before Trump was Trump. I know, but he was a Democrat back in 2011.

[Charlie Kirk]

The President deserves huge credit. And I just have to say that as an obligatory thing, because without him, our movement would be small. And, and you can appreciate that in politics, you have to appreciate the person.

[Gavin Newsom]

Who is the catalyst for you. That's what you sort of attach.

[Charlie Kirk]

It was also just the catalyst. It was a cultural moment that just opened us up.

[Gavin Newsom]

But, but, but go back just on that, because I am curious, in 2012, 13, 14, who were you identifying with from the movie?

[Charlie Kirk]

I was more like, as I mentioned, Ron Paul. Rand Paul, libertarian. That's where the energy really was. Right. And then President Trump comes on again. I was still very early in my political journey. So you're looking up a lot. You know, who's the top voices? What do you believe? Why do you believe it?

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah. So more libertarian frame was more.

[Charlie Kirk]

And I still have some libertarian leanings on.

[Gavin Newsom]

And when Trump came down that escalator, you're like, boom.

[Charlie Kirk]

Not day one. No, I was, I was mystified at first. Why?

[Gavin Newsom]

Just saying this guy's. There's no chance.

[Charlie Kirk]

No, it's funny, I actually sent out a Tweet, very like 2011 when I was in high school, saying Trump should run for office. But I was not mystified negatively. I was like, can this really happen? Can a guy that has no political experience come down an escalator, challenge the whole establishment?

[Gavin Newsom]

Right. But you didn't expect Donald Trump to come down the escalator and start talking about illegal aliens or, you know, rapists.

[Charlie Kirk]

I disagree with it. Well, you didn't. Yeah, I, again and again, this is well documented. Early in my journey, I underestimated the silent majority that really wanted a rebalancing of the American political landscape.

[Gavin Newsom]

So interesting. So Trump then became the catalyst and so Turning point became sort of next level. You're very start growing, you organize around that turning point.

[Charlie Kirk]

Action becomes what the political arm. So one is more educational, one is more political. And we did ballot chasing in Arizona and Wisconsin. We were successful in that. Alongside the Trump campaign, Arizona was the best performing swing state.

[Gavin Newsom]

And you're not modeling yourself at anything because the flatness of the surrounding terrain. Meaning where are the Democrats other organizing?

[Charlie Kirk]

We were modeling off of some of the ballot chasing, ballot harvesting practices of the left. Yeah, but I mean there's again, that's a, that's a self limiting principle. You can't ballot chase if no one wants to vote for you.

[Gavin Newsom]

That's right.

[Charlie Kirk]

So I mean, you could have the best organizers in the world and you have 2,000 people chasing ballots in Arizona and you're running Kamala Harris in Arizona. What you actually was, and what we ended up tracking through our data is that the Democrats were chasing for us is that they were chasing low propensity Hispanics thinking that they were all for Kamala. And in fact we were looking at the precinct numbers of areas we didn't hit that moved like 20 points in Trump's direction. Like, well, thank you very much Kamala campaign for getting out and chasing our ballots and you know, for all this, these Hispanic men that are mechanics, we appreciate it. Thanks for making sure that we also won Dave McCormick Senate seat.

[Gavin Newsom]

Right, right.

[Charlie Kirk]

So, so again, chasing is only one part of the, like, Democrats, of course are better organizers than us. I mean, it's in your blood. Barack Obama was a community organizer. We make fun of it. It's who you guys are. You guys have labor as a backbone, clipboard and tennis shoes.

[Gavin Newsom]

However, labor less and less. We can talk about that for sure in a moment.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah, but what, what we always felt that we had is we felt we had better ideas and a better message and all that. The idea was, can we combo a little bit of organizing practices with a mass movement, which is how you get a national popular vote victory and a overwhelming electoral landslide.

[Gavin Newsom]

And so what do you see? Just, I mean, I sort of talked about the flatness of the surrounding terrain, meaning the Democratic Party's party in some respect as it relates to, I appreciate your point about organizing, but also coercion versus, you know, sort of forcing people to vote versus an enthusiasm and a desire to actually proactively.

[Charlie Kirk]

That has a backfiring effect too.

[Gavin Newsom]

I totally, I appreciate that. And so what, what do you see right now? I mean, you know, we, you, I think you talked about it the other day. A lot of folks were talking about that Carville article where he talked about.

[Charlie Kirk]

Roll over and play dead.

[Gavin Newsom]

Roll over. In essence, he said that I think it was a strategic retreat. Right. That we need to come back. Trump's starting to implode, his numbers are getting soft. This was even before the tariff issues, et cetera. And then come back and strike went hot and Immediately Nobody else thought about you, who's just 24, 7 flooding the zone. Back to my 13 year old owning this space every day, getting a convert every day, picking up 1, 2, 10,000 folks, continuing the momentum coming out of this damn election. And then I'm thinking about we're gon to stand back and watch you run circles around us for six months, the next two or three years, waiting for the moment to finally strike. Strike struck me as not necessarily the best advice. And it's not a knock on Carville, who I have deep respect for. What?

[Charlie Kirk]

That's okay. So I don't have to. He was, he's right about one thing in the last 40 years. It's economy, stupid. And boy, has he spent. He spent down that one line pretty amazingly. But yeah, look, I'll say I don't make this about Carville, but like, yeah, I hope you guys retreat.

[Gavin Newsom]

You kind of like more for us. You like.

[Charlie Kirk]

I mean there's no opposition, there's no arctivist activist spark. If like you guys are posting these cringe videos on social media.

[Gavin Newsom]

What are the videos? What are the ones?

[Charlie Kirk]

I don't know. This like harmonious thing of like 22 senators all saying the same thing like that. Yeah, I didn't like it. Go ahead, go do more of that.

[Gavin Newsom]

What do you do? But what do you do? Seriously, Charlie Kirk, give us some advice, better ideas.

[Charlie Kirk]

Governor, like for example, I mean like, if you want to, like you have an opportunity to like, you know, run to the middle and see this man. So obviously you're talking to me of all people.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Charlie Kirk]

So like you right now should come out and be like, you know what? The young man who's about to win the state championship in the long jump in female sports, that's. That. That shouldn't happen. You as the governor should step out, say no.

[Gavin Newsom]

No. And I appreciate but like, would you.

[Charlie Kirk]

Do something like that? Would you say no Men in female sports.

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, it's, I think it's an issue of fairness. I completely agree with you on that. It is an issue of fairness. So it's deeply.

[Charlie Kirk]

Would you speak out against this young man, A.B. hernandez, who right now is going to win the state championship in the long term. I can see you wrestling with it.

[Gavin Newsom]

No, I'm not wrestling, I'm not wrestling with the fairness issue. I totally agree with you. By the way, as someone with four kids, you, I think.

[Charlie Kirk]

And two daughters.

[Gavin Newsom]

Daughters. I have a daughter too, and a wife that went God forbid to Stanford and played on the junior national soccer team and A guy who got into college only because I was left handed and could throw a baseball a little bit or hit the, hit the ball for a little bit. So I, I revere sports. And so the issue of fairness is completely legit. And I, I saw that the last couple years. Boy, did I saw how you guys were able to weaponize that issue at another level.

[Charlie Kirk]

Not weaponized. Don't.

[Gavin Newsom]

That's, that's well weaponized. Maybe pejorative, you're right. But you were able to shine a light on, highlight it in a way that frankly, I, There are not that many we're talking about, I think NC2A what, 510,000? No, no.

[Charlie Kirk]

But I just didn't realize it's 890 medals and trophies that we know of in the last five years. That's a lot.

[Gavin Newsom]

No, so I'm gonna, let me step back, say completely fair on the issue of fairness. I completely agree. So that's easy to call out the unfairness of that. There's also a humility and grace, you know, that these poor people are more likely to commit suicide, have anxiety and depression. And the way that people talk down to vulnerable communities is an issue that I have a hard time with as well. So both things I can hold in my hand. How can we address this issue with the kind of decency that I think is inherent in you, but not always expressed on the issue.

[Charlie Kirk]

No, I get it.

[Gavin Newsom]

At the same time, deal with the unfairness.

[Charlie Kirk]

So you asked a good faith question like, how do we Democrats get out of the wilderness? This one is an 8020 issue New York Times poll.

[Gavin Newsom]

Right?

[Charlie Kirk]

That's not. We're getting crushed on crushed. And you have an opportunity in the state to be like, look, I have a heart for A.B. hernandez. I have a heart for the San Jose volleyball player. Let's give them compassion. What's not fair is just for like a woman's entire woman's sports.

[Gavin Newsom]

I agree.

[Charlie Kirk]

You know, by the way, I agree with you.

[Gavin Newsom]

I agree with you. And it's interesting. I stress tested this Charlie, I was wondering, I said, you know, in California and I've been a leader in the LGBTQ places face, as you know, back in 2004 was marrying same sex couples. And I know we have difference opinion on marriage equality. And so I've been at this for years and years. I take a bad seat to no one. But I was actually on the issue of sports, which in the last few years has just exploded trying to understand and understand the 10 athletes in the NC2A 510,000 athletes, but 10 athletes and. But how profound. And even my own friend cohort people saying, the hell is going on? Why aren't you calling this out? When did this happen? So in 2000. Turns out in 2014, years before I was governor, there was a law established that established the legal principles that allow the, allow trans athletes in women's sports. But the issue of fairness is completely legit. So I completely align with you. And we've got to own that and we've got to acknowledge it. I don't say that through the prism of politics because you disagree with same sex marriage on principle. And so I'm not. And by the way, I value the fact that you're not trying to walk away from that principle because electorally I'm in the minority of that. Yeah, in the minority. And I don't want to walk away from this principle because it's electoral, but it is an issue of fairness. And I think Democrats.

[Charlie Kirk]

No, I think that. I wish that we would have done this podcast last week because.

[Gavin Newsom]

Week.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, because the U.S. senate just vote. Every Democrat voted against that bill. And I'm just telling you, like, again, not. I'm not one to give Governor Newsom advice. You guys are giving us an 8020 issue that is just permeating the country and it is such an affront to our senses. And you look at these videos, Governor, because it's not just that it's okay, you read an article about it, but these young men that are, you know, are in these sports, they're throwing around girls. And it is an issue of fairness, but it goes to a broader arch narrative.

[Gavin Newsom]

There you go.

[Charlie Kirk]

Which is important now.

[Gavin Newsom]

And this, I want to hear this.

[Charlie Kirk]

Which is this, that, that, that you, that the Democrats, you guys will tend to view an incident through an oppressor oppressed lens.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Charlie Kirk]

It's your training. It comes from college. It comes from. And we as conservatives tend to view things through right or wrong or just or unjust. And the country is going far more in our direction and away from your direction because the problem with oppressor oppressed is eventually you run out of oppressors and you start creating them out of thin air.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Charlie Kirk]

And you start trying to say, well, these people must to be blamed for all of our problems. Or that's where you get a lot of the. Let's just say a lot of. For example, there's a Wall Street Journal editorial like when will the white men shut up or stop complaining? That does no good for anybody. Right. So what I'm. What I'm getting at though is it's a worldview difference. Right.

[Gavin Newsom]

And so that's why the issue is so much more powerful.

[Charlie Kirk]

Of course it is, because it's also pattern recognition. It's pattern recognition of a Democrat party that post 2020 decided to go all in. We call it woke. You might call it, you know, justice or whatever it is, but it's so outside of what we would consider traditional Americans norms and customs. A Democrat strategist would say, oh, Charlie, you're weaponizing stuff. Not you, but like that's a typical, typical thing. But the most effective ad of this election cycle. The most effective ad. You know what it is?

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah. They they. And devastating Trump's for you. She's for they. Them.

[Charlie Kirk]

And. And devastating again in devastating, devastating, devastating.

[Gavin Newsom]

And she didn't even react to it, which was even more.

[Charlie Kirk]

And let's talk about why it was devastating. Number one, it was the trans issue that was just.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Charlie Kirk]

You know, monopolizing.

[Gavin Newsom]

And this was, this was even more challenging because there's issues of people that are incarcerated and illegal. And illegal incarcerated individuals getting taxpayer funded.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yes.

[Gavin Newsom]

And gender reassignment. That is a 9010, not an 80. Right.

[Charlie Kirk]

And then she's like enthusiastically defending it, bragging, being like, I'm all for this. I'm all for this.

[Gavin Newsom]

And then you had the video that was a validator. Brutal.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah.

[Gavin Newsom]

And so tens of millions of brutal. And then the targeted focus from the, from the Trump campaign next level.

[Charlie Kirk]

And then Charlemagne comes out on Breakfast Club is like, this is insane. And they ran it on NFL football.

[Gavin Newsom]

Brilliant.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yes. And so you're trying to reach men.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Charlie Kirk]

It's not, it's not like. It's not.

[Gavin Newsom]

This is a brilliant campaign commercial. It was brutal.

[Charlie Kirk]

It doesn't require.

[Gavin Newsom]

We were running around just in the. For the. What the hell it's worth for you. She was ag at the time. She was addressing the issue of a legal settlement. The courts were interviewing. But she had the video where in the video she was obviously expressed support. And so she was being a cheerleader.

[Charlie Kirk]

For a very popular thing.

[Gavin Newsom]

It was. And it was, it was a great ad. And I say that lightly.

[Charlie Kirk]

This is important political and I want to make sure this. It's not just that this was like the Willie Horton ad of the 2024. It wasn't just like a le at water brilliance. It's that it reflected truth that the voters felt.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah, I appreciate that.

[Charlie Kirk]

And that because. Because voters felt as if their country was slipping away.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Charlie Kirk]

Now you have. The Democrats have a Choice. You could say to those people, you're racist, you're Nazis, you're fascist, you're terrible. Or you can listen and then be like, why is it that a steel worker in Pittsburgh who's voted Democrat his entire life is voting for Trump despite all of, you know, the stuff that's been thrown at him.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah. And all the rhetoric that he's throwing at us.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yes.

[Gavin Newsom]

And.

[Charlie Kirk]

But it's. It's a pattern. And the trans thing is just one of those things. But the second element was also, what we saw under Joe Biden was if you came to the southern border from any country and you spoke the magic words, you could go to any city you're choosing. Right. Cbp, one border app. And all of a sudden, that steel worker in Pittsburgh's like, why am I paying all these taxes and I'm getting my. I can't afford beer. I can't afford anything. And so I guess my question is to you, what are the Democrats going to do about it?

[Gavin Newsom]

So I went and. Let me. I'm going to answer that in a second, but let me just. Let me. Let me pull a few more threads. You said 2020 is when you started to see the Democrats sort of advance this notion of wokeism.

[Charlie Kirk]

It's when the woke. The awokening.

[Gavin Newsom]

The awokening really started. What was it?

[Charlie Kirk]

You know what I'm talking about.

[Gavin Newsom]

No, but. So is it. Yes, we. The Latinx stuff that. By the way, not one person ever in my office has ever used the word Latinx.

[Charlie Kirk]

So can we finally put that to bed?

[Gavin Newsom]

But where did that even.

[Charlie Kirk]

No more Latinx. Everybody.

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, just didn't even know where it came from. And, like, what are people talking about? Was it the pronouns? By the way, once. Once, you think California invented the frame of the pro. Not. I mean, literally, I had one meeting where people started going around the table. Pronouns. 1. There's been a hell of a lot of days between 2020 and today and one meeting. So it's not like this is. I'm like, what the hell is. Why is this the biggest issue?

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, in corporate America, it's everywhere.

[Gavin Newsom]

Okay, all right.

[Charlie Kirk]

And college campuses.

[Gavin Newsom]

It must. College. See, that's where you reside a lot in the college campus.

[Charlie Kirk]

You got to defund the schools if they're doing the pronouns.

[Gavin Newsom]

Jesus. Okay, and so number. Number three, what else? I mean, did you start it? What was also the big wokeism thing?

[Charlie Kirk]

I mean, I mean, first of all, it wasn't just. It wasn't just the projection of certain narratives, which we could obviously go Through. Yeah, but it's when policy started to.

[Gavin Newsom]

Come forward and what kind of policy?

[Charlie Kirk]

Hiring practices. When it was. There was. We're not going to hire.

[Gavin Newsom]

There was DEI decades ago.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah. I mean, it was called. It was just called outreach and inclusion. We saw mass adoption. What we saw. And not only that, we saw pledging of billions of dollars of donations to racial justice from the biggest types of corporations imaginable.

[Gavin Newsom]

And it was sort of post George Floyd.

[Charlie Kirk]

That's what I'm saying. That's when. That's when this. You had a combustible.

[Gavin Newsom]

And was that wrong? I mean, to address the issue of racial. I mean, there was. There's legitimate issues as it relates to past practice.

[Charlie Kirk]

What was insulting. What was insulting to a lot of people is, number one, where's the money going? Because the top premier BLM charity ended up being a racket. Yeah, right. With Patrice Cullors, like, where'd that 100 million bucks go? So all of a sudden we learned that. And all these pledges of corporate dollars were going to this woman that's like hiring her, like, brother for personal security. And that like a lot of. And you would even agree, like that.

[Gavin Newsom]

That became the poster child number two.

[Charlie Kirk]

But number two, which I think was most important was that it. Was it elevated then this scholarly community that was otherwise fringe, like Robin Diangelo and other people, and her book, White Fragility, Literally the entire premise of her book is that white people need to stop being so fragile about race. You need to sit down and shut up and hear how racist you are. And she was brought on tours to corporations across the country. And by the way, just. You understand, this was a phenomenon over months and months, and it didn't quite catch up in turn in time for the 2020 election. I do believe that if you guys would have been a little less insane on crime in the summer of 20, you would have completely clobbered us in November of 20. It was like. It was the riots that even made 2020 close.

[Gavin Newsom]

Right, right.

[Charlie Kirk]

But then it was the extension of all of the what we would call woke stuff.

[Gavin Newsom]

Right. Defund police.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah. I mean, Minneapolis literally had to hold a special vote saying, like, should we still have a police department?

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah, that's. I mean, I mean, that's. That was lunacy.

[Charlie Kirk]

I mean, but Governor.

[Gavin Newsom]

And by the way, by the way, you're talking to someone who's never supported the default. No, I know, but I was explicit.

[Charlie Kirk]

But. But one sec. You did support Prop 16 in 2020, which would have legalized racial. Racial prejudice. Right. Prop 16 literally would. And it.

[Gavin Newsom]

To go back to my.

[Charlie Kirk]

No, no, you know, 16.

[Gavin Newsom]

I taught 960 SAT. So a little.

[Charlie Kirk]

You're the governor of the largest state in the country. No, no, no. I saw your debate against DeSantis. You're good at this stuff. You know what would have had legalized racial prejudice which would. Got defeated by 16 points despite all the institutions. So you're asking me what did wokeism look like when California. When all the institutions, yourself included, with all due respect, embraced this insane ballot measure? Guess what? Even the people of California didn't want Racial. Racial discrimination.

[Gavin Newsom]

California since 1996 has had Prop 209. So the affirmative action case came for the Supreme Court as relates to institutions of higher learning, had no impact on California. So we've actually. It's an interesting. California also codified as a constitutional amendment marriage between a man and a woman. And. And that was in the 2000s. So it. California runs an interesting.

[Charlie Kirk]

I found it resonating though that despite, I mean, there was really like no opposition. It was like a couple hundred like Asian activists.

[Gavin Newsom]

Honestly. Go back to.

[Charlie Kirk]

But I just want to say you asked the question, what did Wokeism look like? Prop 16 in California that would have had legalized racial discrimination.

[Gavin Newsom]

That was not a major. There was a broader.

[Charlie Kirk]

No, no, no. I'm just bringing it home to you. Because there were hundreds of such ballot referendums, right? Yeah, there was, you know, city council meetings where they said the white people aren't allowed here. Right.

[Gavin Newsom]

And what's not good.

[Charlie Kirk]

And so what that ends up happening. What ends up happening is a broader question of sensible, not racist suburban moms that are like, wait a second, I have a 8 year old white son. Are you trying to say he's a racist?

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Charlie Kirk]

And it creates a backlash that then bubbles up. Right.

[Gavin Newsom]

I apprec. I appreciate the perspective. And I appreciate not just the perspective. I totally appreciate what you just said as an explicit statement of fact, to make an 8 year old feel like they're racist is absurd and outrageous.

[Charlie Kirk]

Governor, with all the respect that's happening right now in California, I mean.

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, we'll say.

[Charlie Kirk]

I'm not trying to drill you on. I'm just being honest. Like you could say that, but like maybe you should like convene a special session and say like no more, you know, race based teaching against white people in the schools of California or Asians. I'm just saying though that like this is not a conjecture, it's not a hypothetical. It is embedded into the DNA of the Democrat party.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah, okay, I appreciate, I mean, the whole, the CRT stuff.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yes.

[Gavin Newsom]

I mean, where I was trying to find it is you think we have CRT and K through 12.

[Charlie Kirk]

You have the principles of it. I mean, of course, critical theory is like a PhD level different by Derek Bell and Kimberly Crenshaw, but the same way that you have advanced physics and the theories of physics in 8th grade, it's like saying, like, you don't have.

[Gavin Newsom]

The elements of it, but it's, but.

[Charlie Kirk]

For example, I mean, it's very simple.

[Gavin Newsom]

But at least that explains why, because I'm just, I was trying to find.

[Charlie Kirk]

We know of over at least 50 schools in California that do things called privilege walks. Do you know what privilege walks are?

[Gavin Newsom]

What are privilege?

[Charlie Kirk]

Where they make kids walk ahead based on certain questions and they try to make a point saying, well, you see, the white people are ahead. They must have white privilege.

[Gavin Newsom]

Okay, I get it. Yeah, no, but like, all right, I got to get back to, back into the classroom. You got to get your 6 million kids, 1050 school districts, the largest school district.

[Charlie Kirk]

You got a lot going on. I know that.

[Gavin Newsom]

No, but no excuse, because these things are important. And by the way, it's the reason we're having this conversation. I, I, this is very illuminating and helpful to me to understand sort of the animus. What is it about, you know, that animal. I joke with people. I said, what, you know, you guys don't like dei, crt, esg, doj, FBI acronyms. It's all the damn three letter acronyms. What the hell's the issue? What's going on with all that?

[Charlie Kirk]

You know, I, I can, I do. You missed some.

[Gavin Newsom]

Which ones? Which others? What have I missed? Epa, of course.

[Charlie Kirk]

Epa? Yeah, the Employment Prevention Agency.

[Gavin Newsom]

Oh, okay, you're about to get that 65%.

[Charlie Kirk]

That's what I mean, look, I mean, look, I mean, the, so it's not just acronyms that we dislike, for the record, but it's, it's what feels like that sometimes.

[Gavin Newsom]

I mean, how about the book ban stuff? On A serious note, 4,200, 4,240 books or titles, libraries and schools are banned in 2023. Is that not as a conservative?

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, it depends. I mean, like, I think we can both agree pornography should not be taught to nine year olds.

[Gavin Newsom]

Fair point.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay, so that's a book band.

[Gavin Newsom]

All right, well, there were some other books.

[Charlie Kirk]

That was the Moms for Liberty contention. Timeout. Like, I agree on Bill O'Reilly, the moms for Liberty movement that you made a big thing of was Just no porn to 10 year olds. Yeah, we agree. So those bands should be. Those books should be banned. Well, okay, so what we should do right now is every California school that has porn in their library should be kicked out.

[Gavin Newsom]

That include the Bible?

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, I wouldn't say the Song of Solomon is porn.

[Gavin Newsom]

No, but I mean, some have made that point. Is that a fair point?

[Charlie Kirk]

I don't think that's.

[Gavin Newsom]

And as a man of faith, and I deeply admire that about you.

[Charlie Kirk]

Thank you. But no. I mean, again, the Song of Solomon is rather risque. But what we're talking about in these books is not just the words, it's also the images. And again, your audience can look at the images themselves. It's highly graphic.

[Gavin Newsom]

But again, what it seems a banning binge. I mean, at next level, sort of cancel culture.

[Charlie Kirk]

But why do you think moms are doing that? Do you think it's because they want to have mind control or do you think that they have come across, I think incident of incident of highly provocative material.

[Gavin Newsom]

I love moms, but this mom's. I mean, I've. We don't have to get into Moms for Liberty. It seems you brought up the book band, though. I mean, deeply organized for a larger agenda. But that's my humble opinion.

[Charlie Kirk]

No, but I. But for. But let me just, you know, kind of complete. The point is that it's easy to just call it kind of a book ban, but when you actually have to read some of these books, it will take your breath away of some of this stuff. Right? You're like, okay, you know, we're teaching a 10 year old how to put a condom on.

[Gavin Newsom]

I know. I just have a problem with, you know, who the hell is going to decide that? Government. I mean, Duran Desantis is going to decide what I can read or say.

[Charlie Kirk]

I mean, in the boardroom, in the. And this is, this is the exercise of politics, though. The exercise of politics is the highest form of community because it blends morality and sociability. So what we do is we have discussion and elections and we have boards and commissions. Right. And we as a people say, okay, no porn for 10 year olds.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Charlie Kirk]

And that's politics, Right? I mean, I'm not saying that we.

[Gavin Newsom]

Got to stress test whether the Bible's included in that. I don't even want to go forward anymore on this. No, it's tough. But this is the. This becomes a dialectic.

[Charlie Kirk]

I have heard a lot I've never heard. That's interesting though.

[Gavin Newsom]

No, I mean, it's a. I don't take offense. Again, I deeply don't mean offend. By the way. Father Kaz would be offended if you.

[Charlie Kirk]

Think the Bible's pornographic.

[Gavin Newsom]

But there's just, there's, there's. Most of these books are quote unquote not pornography. There's sections that are.

[Charlie Kirk]

That can affect of images that are very violating to young some.

[Gavin Newsom]

We would agree on that. Can I just say one of them?

[Charlie Kirk]

If you want to learn, Governor, and I'm happy that there is a movement of moms that is not. That's growing where they feel as if our kids are being hypersexualized. And I agree with them that they are being. That they have to hear topics social media. Well, both in the social media and I mean, look again, you signed a law where school districts can't even tell parents if their kids are trans.

[Gavin Newsom]

Not true.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay, okay, then no, they can.

[Gavin Newsom]

They just can't get fired for not doing that. And it wasn't just trans. There was. The law was explicit, said you can't be fired for not snitching on a kid. Not just for being trans, for being gay. And my point is how in the hell.

[Charlie Kirk]

But should you tell parents know they have every parent snitching.

[Gavin Newsom]

No, the, the, the teachers themselves have the right. The lot is they can do that. They can do that. We're not saying you can't do that. We're saying you shouldn't be fired if you choose not to say Johnny was talking about, you know, liking some other boys.

[Charlie Kirk]

Charitable reading the other way.

[Gavin Newsom]

Charitable attack.

[Charlie Kirk]

But let me.

[Gavin Newsom]

The freedom not to.

[Charlie Kirk]

Let me tell you the other way to say this, that a teacher, of course should be fired if you don't notify a parent of what's happening to their kid. But I mean, they should be terminated for that.

[Gavin Newsom]

If you're interested. I want these kids to teach. I want these teachers to teach. And by the way, they feel like the health or safety of their kid. They have a responsibility to communicate that they still can. By the way, we're not selling these teachers. They can't. We're saying they won't be fired if they don't look around and say in the recess, there were two boys, why didn't you see that you're fired. You should have said something.

[Charlie Kirk]

Because they're talking about two different things. What you're. But there of course should be a penalty measure, whether it be termination or whatever, if a teacher withholds information from a parent. Because what you're saying is that there's no way to hold Them accountable. So you're saying you're accountable to what though? Accountable to kids.

[Gavin Newsom]

Talking about the fact that this is talking about subject matter. All of a sudden now we have to have teachers policing. I think speech or conversation.

[Charlie Kirk]

I think you would even agree Governor, that is an over extreme example what we're talking about. No, it's.

[Gavin Newsom]

But the extreme example. This was a solution.

[Charlie Kirk]

What we're talking about is if, which happens a lot unfortunately is if a young girl says that hey I want to transition and the teacher accommodates and affirms it and the parent doesn't even know. I have met parents like that.

[Gavin Newsom]

I heard Trump. And then they come back and they're. There's so much extreme.

[Charlie Kirk]

I will say and we don't have to, you know, we don't have to wrestle too much on this topic, but you guys will lose on these topics. And I disagree.

[Gavin Newsom]

But, but, but I'm one of those guys. And Charlie, I appreciate, and I by the way appreciate the civility which we're engaged in this conversation. Sincerely, I don't mind losing. Sometimes you lose on Prince. It's one of those things. Everything's not political is the point. And, and sometimes in principle and by the way, mad respect for you abortion and insane sex marriage.

[Charlie Kirk]

The American people don't agree with me.

[Gavin Newsom]

Exactly. And I, but I admire that on principle. But for me it's not just political and I appreciate you you making that point. I deeply am mindful of the politics of this which are very unhelpful personally. It's unhelpful more broadly professionally the Democratic Party and our brand. And one of the reasons to your point, the Democratic Party brand has just been crushed.

[Charlie Kirk]

And as your self awareness is is helpful to know because it is deeply unpopular. And I think that that is, that is an ascendant political force.

[Gavin Newsom]

Right.

[Charlie Kirk]

That is not going away.

[Gavin Newsom]

No, I appreciate. But I also appreciate you hold deeply unpopular beliefs.

[Charlie Kirk]

Of course I do, but. I know.

[Gavin Newsom]

But you're not running for office.

[Charlie Kirk]

I'm not going to run for president as a moderate.

[Gavin Newsom]

What are you, what are you, what are you running for office? I'm not running for anything. I saw a poll in Arizona that you were like one or two. You have the highest name ID and a favorability.

[Charlie Kirk]

When are you running is being.

[Gavin Newsom]

Is that what this is all about?

[Charlie Kirk]

No, it's definitely not.

[Gavin Newsom]

You're not even old enough to be president. You're only 31 years old. You got to be you.

[Charlie Kirk]

I mean I'm not running for anything. You're gonna run against aoc, I'm running for, you know, head of, you know, most popular Tick Tocker, but I'm not running for anything.

[Gavin Newsom]

But by the way, should we ban Tick Tock? Are you.

[Charlie Kirk]

No, we should not. I used to say that and then I started. Yeah.

[Gavin Newsom]

Why'd you change your position? Because, you know, politically intermediate or Trump told you to?

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, no, definitely Trump. I sent out a tweet and I'm perfectly honest about this, I think you'd respect this, is that I was so mad at them because they would ban me all the time and I sent out a tweet saying, like, hey, if you guys are really for free speech as a creator, like, let's see it. Get a call from TikTok a couple hours later. We're going to show you that we're for free speech. We're going to show you the power of the platform.

[Gavin Newsom]

Right.

[Charlie Kirk]

And I saw real changes where our campus interactions went from being banned to now well over two and a half billion views on TikTok. And so I wouldn't say expedient, I'd say impact. And also they now have changed some of their speech codes. They've changed some of their. You can you, you. Hey, enough for your son. Your son finds my content somehow.

[Gavin Newsom]

Hey, look, I use Tick Tock. I was just out there. I wasn't out there trying to check in the bands. I just love this conversion. It's a, it's a hell of a conversion.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah. Hey, I, I'm, I'm, I'm open about it.

[Gavin Newsom]

I appreciate it. Back to the Democratic Party, we talk about just that we're not aligned with them. They don't trust us. I think we have 31 favorability, 57% unfavorability. And by the. Thank you. 31% favorability is not good enough. So, I mean, what. Back to, back to just the basics. So you, you talked about wokeism, broadly defined. We talked about some specific examples of that. You, you began on the transport, which is interesting and I respect and appreciate.

[Charlie Kirk]

I want you to speak out against that one.

[Gavin Newsom]

I appreciate why we just did. Of all of you, I mean, and I've been, by the way, I've been saying that. So interesting gets picked up and that maybe goes to the question. We live in these filter bubbles. We're talking to ourselves. We're in these sort of. Yeah, it's Newsmax one American News Fox. And then it gets into all the stuff that you guys are doing and everybody else. And meanwhile, I'm, I'm safe over here at MSNBC and cnn, reading the New York Times, feeling really great about things and having a nice glass of Chardonnay. Listen to Rachel Maddow self medicating and just going, yes.

[Charlie Kirk]

At the French Laundry.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah, the French. That's of course the only place I eat and you know, get me a table, take out and the whole thing. Well, I should have been at Applebee's. I get it. Applebee's, America. I read this.

[Charlie Kirk]

Come on, man.

[Gavin Newsom]

Come on.

[Charlie Kirk]

In and out Burger, be with the people.

[Gavin Newsom]

And here's a guy who makes 25 times more money than I do and sitting here with it with a jacket. And I'm sitting here with it. That's right.

[Charlie Kirk]

And you control the fifth largest economy on the planet.

[Gavin Newsom]

We don't control the people. Control the fifth largest economy. And by the way, proud that, you.

[Charlie Kirk]

Know, it's a 3.9 trillion declining population.

[Gavin Newsom]

But not your population went up last.

[Charlie Kirk]

Year because of the illegal border. We'll talk about that later.

[Gavin Newsom]

That's just factually untrue.

[Charlie Kirk]

And that's 290,000 net, by the way. Anyway.

[Gavin Newsom]

394 National Guard that I put down at the border six years ago. You should be championing that as governor. 394 we have down at the border.

[Charlie Kirk]

We've been focused on fentanyl, but anyway, you're getting somewhere.

[Gavin Newsom]

Complimentary state. No, yeah, I was going back to.

[Charlie Kirk]

You're talking about your, your wine and dine at French Laundry.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yes, I was talking about the importance of. Of, of never. Well, I can't help you with a reservation.

[Charlie Kirk]

I get such a whole shtick, I got to be honest.

[Gavin Newsom]

Very nice, by the way. We couldn't have this conversation with that conversation. Dumbest bonehead move my life. Okay? Own it, move on, grow up. And I'm.

[Charlie Kirk]

Is that you talking to yourself?

[Gavin Newsom]

You're talking to myself. I'm just. Look, I'm staring right at you in the eyes as I say that just to get your reaction. That said, we, we are. We're losing. We have. I feel it's asymmetry. Asymmetry of Donald Trump and Elon Musk sending out tweets. Are you doing social media and they're me doing a three minute hit at 3:00 in the afternoon on CNN. I mean, how the hell we compete? We're toast.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, I mean, I'm part of it. And credit to you for doing long form podcasting because long form podcasting does penetrate different audiences. Right. And our show does very well. But part of the problem of the Democrat Party that for the health of the country would be great to change is that Democrats cannot survive in long form podcasting environments. It's too unscripted. It's too masculine, honestly. And the Democrat parties.

[Gavin Newsom]

What is it? What is masculine about a podcast, honestly? Because I get the whole manosphere that's pro.

[Charlie Kirk]

To go into the wilderness with no rules and duel it out and see who's better or who's stronger. No, seriously, I mean, like, what? What? No, I mean, like, we don't do it.

[Gavin Newsom]

You're right. We, for whatever reason, don't do it.

[Charlie Kirk]

You can laugh, but, like, who in the Democrat Party or not? You're right, we'll go. I mean, maybe Bernie Sanders, but he.

[Gavin Newsom]

Only when he was a Democrat.

[Charlie Kirk]

Bobby, who's now hhs. But, like, there's something to be said that if you want earn the respect of forgotten America, you have to show them that you can intellectually joust with no script, no hard breaks, no producers in the ears, no teleprompters. That's where new media is going. Now, I will. I will only challenge one thing. You say I am reaching new audiences. I'm not talking to my. My bubble because our content is so appealing. It goes in a decentralized way.

[Gavin Newsom]

And it's not just political.

[Charlie Kirk]

No, it's not political. But like, again, our conversation here is going to go far and wide, Right. A lot of people are going to see it, a lot of people are going to consume it because it's also politics. Entertainment have begun to overlap. Right, Right. And the old adage is, well, politics is downstream from culture. I think politics and culture are indecipherable from one another. Now, Donald Trump became a cultural phenomenon, right? You go, you go in to, you know, inner city Compton. You'll see guys with Trump shirts with, you know, the hand up, you know, fight, fight, fight. So what Democrats are doing is you're still playing in a very old hypersanitized media environment. And my advice is you got to go where it's unpredictable, where it's treacherous, where it's dangerous. Now, I would make a more provocative argument that you wouldn't necessarily resonate with, which is that. That you guys have not. You guys have not built the intellectual muscle over 30 years because you all agree with each other all the time.

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, not like conservatives are massively disagreeing. Trump is completely collapsed.

[Charlie Kirk]

I would push back a little bit. I would disagree. We have a robust discussion.

[Gavin Newsom]

It seems like Congress is really doing great oversight of Trump right now. They're holding them to account that's an.

[Charlie Kirk]

Important but separate issue. I just want to finish the point. Then we could talk about Congress, which is that in the Republican Party we have immense and vocal and public spats all the time. I think you would agree. We fight about foreign policy. Look at Ukraine. Right. We're talking about primary. Challenging some of these senators that were meeting Zelensky last week. The Democrat Party would never do that. Now, I think that is a symptom of an underlying thing. We are. We're constantly trying to find the approximation of what truth is. We're trying to use dialogue towards, hey, who's right? What do you believe? Why do you believe it? And it's by no coincidence that out of the long form podcasting genres, the top 10, eight of them are conservative or center right. Rogan, Megan Kelly, Theo Vaughan, the Paul Brothers, our program, Ben Shapiro, Matt Walsh. There's a singular one on the left which is Pod Save America.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Charlie Kirk]

Which is just like a bunch of Obama bros agreeing with each other for 90 minutes and saying that we're not very smart. And you know, and so anyway.

[Gavin Newsom]

But I appreciate. No, but objective truth. Right. I mean, you just dominate this media. It's medium. But what? So what? I mean, but it's interesting, you're making a deeper that we're not, and you didn't say it again in a maligning way, but that we're just not capable because we're not hardwired.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, I think it's two things to.

[Gavin Newsom]

Be able to participate in this.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, I think that it's two things. Number one, your upbringing in college campuses does not foster debate like it used to. It just doesn't. It's that it's about silencing the critic and the elevation of the victim. So you do not have the practice of robust having to defend your position. It's very monolithic. It's very centralized. It's very top down, it's quasi authoritarian. And then secondly, I would just say that the philosophy on the worldview, as I mentioned earlier, that you guys have adopted is that thou which is oppressed will get the most points. You guys don't have thou that has the best idea wins. And because of that, you guys have an elevation of like, hey, we're going to. Eventually we're just going to have a small subset of a minoritarian, hectoring, hall monitor, assistant principal vibe of people telling you that you're not allowed to say these words and you can't say that. And we, we call that political correctness, which in and of itself is Hyper authoritarian. So if you seek to understand why young men are rebelling, right. It's like, no, I'm not going to go along with this anymore. Like, maybe I'm going to sit for an example. Maybe I'm going to send out a stupid Tweet When I'm 17 years old. When I'm. When I'm 26. I shouldn't have to get fired because of that.

[Gavin Newsom]

100%. I've never liked this cancel. I mean, I'm glad to hear you say that. I remember back when I was lieutenant governor, I think Bill Maher was trying to get on the UC campus or something. They were saying Bill Maher was too conservative voice. And we called that out at the time. It completely said. But it's equally insane that people are boycotting Bud Light. I mean, how is that not called?

[Charlie Kirk]

I don't drink, but yeah, I mean like.

[Gavin Newsom]

You don't drink at all?

[Charlie Kirk]

I mean, no.

[Gavin Newsom]

By the way, I'm just. That's interesting.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah.

[Gavin Newsom]

You don't. Never have.

[Charlie Kirk]

I have. Yeah. A couple.

[Gavin Newsom]

What happened a couple years ago? You stopped. Why'd you stop?

[Charlie Kirk]

I just wanted to be more successful.

[Gavin Newsom]

I love that. What were you drinking?

[Charlie Kirk]

Napa Valley wine.

[Gavin Newsom]

Oh, Jesus Christ. Here we go, right? Are we gonna get a little.

[Charlie Kirk]

My Lord and savior.

[Gavin Newsom]

By the way, forgive me, I deeply respect. By the way, do respect your faith.

[Charlie Kirk]

I'm serious. Like the fourth time. I mean, come on. No. Okay, but no, I don't drink. But yeah, I mean, look, but first of all, we have the agency to boycott whatever we want. But understand.

[Gavin Newsom]

No, but I mean in that cancel culture in reverse, I mean a lot of cancel culture.

[Charlie Kirk]

Something completely different. First of all, cancel culture is someone in power using their power to cancel. Somebody that doesn't have power. That's cancer culture. Time out. Hold on. What Bud Light was people that don't have a lot of power consumers using their agency to say no powerful corporation. I'm not going to voluntarily associate with you. But cancel culture has always been the incumbent person with power. A governor, a principal, a boss, a CEO, a corporate board going against the weaker. What we did with Bud Light was just a bunch of decentralized folks doing a good old fashioned boycott. Completely different.

[Gavin Newsom]

But a boy can I boycott is not. I mean, well, there's boycotting speakers, there's boycotting. That is a derivative of cancel.

[Charlie Kirk]

But the culmination of cancel culture is somebody who has a power position wrongly canceling.

[Gavin Newsom]

Appreciate that perspective. Let's go back to Democrats being totally incompetent, incapable of spending 30, let alone 45 to an hour. Having a conversation broadly on podcasts.

[Charlie Kirk]

I said you were, you're, you're becoming the exception in the process of becoming, like becoming Gavin, like becoming Michelle.

[Gavin Newsom]

Right, but so what. I mean, who do. You are the Democrats. You do forget literally any Democrats you admire out there right now. I mean, even beyond just the podcast thing that you look and say, jesus, there's hope.

[Charlie Kirk]

Gotta stop saying that.

[Gavin Newsom]

Forgive me. There's hope. We can edit that out. No, I don't care.

[Charlie Kirk]

You can keep it in. I used to have respect for Bernie on his anti war stance and now he's a complete neocon.

[Gavin Newsom]

I was gonna ask you about.

[Charlie Kirk]

He's a complete neocon now. So he's, he's not there. Democrats. I respect Bobby Kennedy. I respect Tulsi Gabbard.

[Gavin Newsom]

Why are you laughing? Why are you smiling?

[Charlie Kirk]

Because, like they're on our team now because you guys kicked out like your best people. It's like the people that were into. This is a great point though, Governor, is that Bobby Kennedy was a heterodox opinion on a thing that a lot of people were concerned about. Get him out. He's an anti vaxxer. Tulsi Gabbard, who is an anti war. Get her out. She's a Russian agent. You guys see how you have an unhealthy purification process where eventually you're left with just a 31% approval rating and a bunch of people that are talking to each other. And meanwhile, we're the ones that have Democrats in our cabinet winning the electoral majority vote because there needs to be said we're. If Democrats are serious about being a majority party ever again, when somebody has a disagreement, for example, if there's a pro life Democrat, is there a place for a pro life Democrat in the Democrat party?

[Gavin Newsom]

I mean, there should be.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay.

[Gavin Newsom]

On principle. There should be.

[Charlie Kirk]

That's a bit.

[Gavin Newsom]

That's a deeply held personal point of view. God bless.

[Charlie Kirk]

I agree. Not every party or Democrat official would say that. Right. And so certain states have different opinions on that.

[Gavin Newsom]

And I say this as one of the biggest champions for reproductive freedom on the planet.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah, trust me, I know that. I know. But like the, the issue though is that that is like a. That is a one stop purity test. Like we have pro choice Republicans. There was a sister soldiers, a pro choice Republican.

[Gavin Newsom]

No. And Trump himself decided to pivot a.

[Charlie Kirk]

Little bit more pro choice than I am. Like, for sure. But what I'm saying though is what you see in the Republican Party is the best in my opinion, culmination of modern politics and doesn't get appreciated. Look at that. Ideological diversity. We have people that, you know, geez, they want to go to war with every country that says something bad against us. And then we have people that are far more dovish, you know, like Rand Paul. But that is a better, more, dare I say, diverse picture. You could say diversity is our strength.

[Gavin Newsom]

Oh, look at you. Look at Charlie Kirk. Diversity is strength. I mean, I want to end the podcast right there, but first I said.

[Charlie Kirk]

You could say, you could say I want to.

[Gavin Newsom]

Do we have ultimate editing here? I'm going to.

[Charlie Kirk]

No, you better not edit any of these.

[Gavin Newsom]

For the record, we're not going to edit any of this. And by the way, no reason to edit any of this. Despite my use of inappropriate words here and there. Let me ask you, just on the Democratic Party side, forgive me, I do want to just look where. So our effort to get out of the wilderness, you know, on the woke culture wars, on some of these issues, on providing a more diverse campus, dare I say, of opinion and pulling people in. But what, what else do you, I mean, do you feel this party, I mean, you on point that the Republican Party is now going to be the dominant incentive party?

[Charlie Kirk]

I'm not saying I don't, I don't have that kind of pride. I'm not saying, I'm saying right now we are the ascendant worldview, but we could screw this up easily. You have to have the humility to say that. But like as of the recording of this podcast, we have a majority approval rating, won the electoral. I mean, all that stuff, right?

[Gavin Newsom]

Any. Both houses. I mean, it, we could screw it.

[Charlie Kirk]

Up and you guys could adjust or adapt.

[Gavin Newsom]

Okay, so this is what, this was my, this was the question that I'm not articulating very effectively, but I remember so many of the similar contours of this conversation we were having in 2004 and 2005. We just got shellack. Both houses of Congress, Republicans. You had a Republican president that won the popular vote. The last Republican president to win the popular vote. And two years later you had Speaker Nancy Pelosi. Four years later you had 53% of the vote, the highest since 19. What. I mean, 16.

[Charlie Kirk]

I, I don't say that's impossible.

[Gavin Newsom]

So, so what if, if you were in my camp, what is.

[Charlie Kirk]

I'm not going to give you my best advice. I'll give you like, I'll give you like the B or C level.

[Gavin Newsom]

Okay, Give me, give me the B.

[Charlie Kirk]

Plus because the secret stuff. I'm not sure.

[Gavin Newsom]

No. Well, when you've got what is your secret stuff, why don't we.

[Charlie Kirk]

That's secret for what is it?

[Gavin Newsom]

Is it technical or is it.

[Charlie Kirk]

Oh, it's all of it. I could design your presidential run in.

[Gavin Newsom]

A way where you would win. Oh, no, we know this is not about that.

[Charlie Kirk]

No, no, no, you got.

[Gavin Newsom]

By the way, you guys are so obsessed with the idea that every goddamn thing I do. I said it again. Yeah, I said it again because I needed your emotional reaction that everything I do has is framed in that context. It's, it's a talk about you Trump derangement syndrome. I think you got one with. No, with California and me.

[Charlie Kirk]

First of all, it's not, it's not new to have someone from California run for the presidency. We just beat someone from California. Presidency. California. California is to politics, to the Democrat party is Florida is our party. You guys have the speaker, the former speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi. Right. You have, you have a lot of the ascendant political voices come out of the state. So it's not derangement syndrome. It's. No, it's knowing your enemy and looking at the horizon and understanding what's coming. But anyway, if I were to give.

[Gavin Newsom]

You, give me somebody advice on you.

[Charlie Kirk]

The B and C level stuff, which is very. Plus you have to go to war with your own party on three major things. You got to say we are not going to do this illegal immigration thing anymore. Which includes like, are you going to work with ice?

[Gavin Newsom]

We do work with ice. Okay. So let me, by the way, just.

[Charlie Kirk]

I want to make sure people can do this.

[Gavin Newsom]

We've, we have been. I, in fact directly we actually put out the data. I was, I actually reached out to the administration saying are you not aware that California coordinates and cooperates with all CDCR releases over 10.

[Charlie Kirk]

Explain the Sanctuary state thing then what does it do?

[Gavin Newsom]

You got the statewide sanctuary state and you not you. Yeah. Which in the statewide framework allows us to work as it relates to issues of criminals and coordinating the release of criminals from our federal. From our state prison populate prison system. We coordinate with ICE on the deportation. We've done that over 10,000 times since I've been governor. We're not denying access. Were not denying coordination.

[Charlie Kirk]

I'm glad to hear that.

[Gavin Newsom]

That's why I asked for criminals.

[Charlie Kirk]

Sanctuary policy was never, I would say if you break into the country illegally. 8 USD 1325 is a breaking of law.

[Gavin Newsom]

Right. Civil, not criminal.

[Charlie Kirk]

But it is a federal law.

[Gavin Newsom]

But I get it.

[Charlie Kirk]

But I'm saying so. By the way, if you're serious about moderating the party. 8 USC 1325. Vast majority of Americans. Let me just go through.

[Gavin Newsom]

No, no.

[Charlie Kirk]

Majority of Americans want mass deportations. It's just the thing.

[Gavin Newsom]

Until. Until they don't.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, okay.

[Gavin Newsom]

That's my humble opinion. Until they don't.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay.

[Gavin Newsom]

Someone who's been here 10 years, you might be paying taxes. I don't buy it.

[Charlie Kirk]

You might. Well.

[Gavin Newsom]

But at moment, you're right.

[Charlie Kirk]

You might be right.

[Gavin Newsom]

The numbers.

[Charlie Kirk]

We'll see. Number two, we mentioned the trans stuff. It's an affront to all of our senses. It's out of control.

[Gavin Newsom]

You don't believe in it. Fundamentally. It's not just sports. It's not style. You just don't.

[Charlie Kirk]

I mean, Charlie Kirk's views are separate than the political advice. But if you'd like me to. We should do a whole.

[Gavin Newsom]

No, I get it.

[Charlie Kirk]

Charlie Kirk asked me anything and you can show up to Cal State north on Thursday. I've got 25, by the way.

[Gavin Newsom]

Talks of what your feelings are, so. Actually that was a quite a question I didn't need.

[Charlie Kirk]

No, if you want it, it's fine. I just don't think that that's the best use of our time. But on the political advice is that Americans increasingly believe that their good heartedness and charitable nature towards the LGBT issue has gone overblown, especially with youth sports, youth curriculum and the chemical castration of our kids. When it comes to this medical therapy, and you seem that you want to really. I encourage you, Governor, to learn about some of the butchery under the guise of health care that is happening under chemical castration in this state and in other states. We don't spend a lot of time on that, but the American people are overwhelmingly against it. Yeah, they're overruling against it.

[Gavin Newsom]

No, I think we have to be more sensitized to that.

[Charlie Kirk]

Youth should be off limits. I think that's. That's the political direction things are going. You might be right on deportations. I know I'm right on this. I know that this is. This issue is picking up steam. There is no good counter to it. The cast report, the United Kingdom cast report. The NHS came out and said there's no good reason to ever operate surgically on a young person. The problem, puberty is the solution. I think I encourage.

[Gavin Newsom]

I'm not an expert in this, but I appreciate.

[Charlie Kirk]

But I'm saying politically, it's a soup turbocharged issue that is kicking the tail of Democrats. The third one though is quality of life. Is quality of life.

[Gavin Newsom]

I agree with you on this one especially.

[Charlie Kirk]

But like, I mean, look.

[Gavin Newsom]

No, I know. Homeless encampments out of control. Unacceptable.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yes.

[Gavin Newsom]

Issues have just quality.

[Charlie Kirk]

You know where I'm going with this. Why is it you were able to clean it up for Xi Jinping guys.

[Gavin Newsom]

By the way, you guys weaponize that. I saw that on 25 things. That was. You know what? I will happily, happily revert back to your. Can I have a point as weaponized in this case? Weaponized.

[Charlie Kirk]

Can I get.

[Gavin Newsom]

In this case, can I. Weaponized.

[Charlie Kirk]

Can I get the gig? It was ridiculous.

[Gavin Newsom]

Give me a break.

[Charlie Kirk]

With all due respect, I saw a beautiful picture of San Francisco that looked like Singapore, by the way. And then Gigi Ping leaves and the walking dead come out.

[Gavin Newsom]

By the way, it was apac. You had dozens and dozens of foreign leaders in California. Is not San Francisco. But I am the governor of California, not the mayor of California.

[Charlie Kirk]

You were the mayor. But I just want to say why is the mayor. We have to clean it up. But you have to admit it's emblematic of something that if enough important people show up, it can get clean. So why not make it clean all the time?

[Gavin Newsom]

That's exactly my. By the way. That's my energy. I think you've missed a lot of my press conferences. I've been saying that to all these mayors. State vision is realized at the local level. It's about accountability, transparency. If you can't clean up the streets, we're going to redirect the money.

[Charlie Kirk]

He seems to be more moderate than that being made.

[Gavin Newsom]

By the way, what's going on with homelessness in all these red states? You're seeing it through the roof. Went up 18% across the country.

[Charlie Kirk]

I'm not here defending every red state or what. No, but I'm just.

[Gavin Newsom]

But I'm making the point. This is hardly.

[Charlie Kirk]

I'm sure there's a lot of governors and mayors. Quality life's huge. Right?

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Charlie Kirk]

And then like, look, the number one thing, which I know you're going to agree with and I'm sure you'll have a super slick response. Right? That's about half true, but. Which is about three quarters the cost of housing. Average home in California, 850,000 bucks.

[Gavin Newsom]

I like what you said about Blackrock.

[Charlie Kirk]

So, yeah, I mean, I.

[Gavin Newsom]

But that was interesting to me.

[Charlie Kirk]

I think that is. But again, that's not a majority of house purchasing. About one in four houses are bought by private equity. Would you agree to say that Blackrock should not be able to own homes in California, I think.

[Gavin Newsom]

And then turning around and renting.

[Charlie Kirk]

It's insane, right?

[Gavin Newsom]

This is a huge problem.

[Charlie Kirk]

You should propose a bill in the California State House.

[Gavin Newsom]

We've had one. It didn't get very far last year. And there's more conversations.

[Charlie Kirk]

A $10 trillion fund shouldn't be able to come in. Not just BlackRock specifically. I mean, what's happening in this space? Mass, mass, mass. Asset managers that have a billion dollars, $50 billion asset under management are now competing against our college grad from, by the way, Cal State Fullerton.

[Gavin Newsom]

I love that you say this, by the way, just in that spirit, don't you agree one of the Doge things should be dealing with a one and a half billion dollars of subsidies on carried interest.

[Charlie Kirk]

Oh, I carried interest, I think is a huge problem. And by the way, you know, President Trump has proposed in his tax bill.

[Gavin Newsom]

To get rid of it. He proposes it all the time. But in that, I mean, Joe Biden.

[Charlie Kirk]

Didn'T get rid of carried interest. That is the, the holy grail of private equity. You know that. I mean, I get it, but let's.

[Gavin Newsom]

Go back to housing.

[Charlie Kirk]

By the way, you're going to have a revolt in Palo Alto if you get rid of carried interest. They're going to light torches and like run to Sacramento on the issue of housing.

[Gavin Newsom]

You couldn't be more right. It's the original sin in the state of California, affordability, period, full stop. And it has more, more impact on the issue of homelessness than any other issue. Because the cost of living, by the way, we had 188,000 people in 2005, 20 years ago on the streets and homeless. And our point in time count. So this is hardly unique.

[Charlie Kirk]

No, I'm not saying it's unique, modern California. But help me understand them.

[Gavin Newsom]

A long term issue and housing is at the core.

[Charlie Kirk]

We agree on the problem. But here, help me understand this. You guys control the House, the Senate with suit majorities, you control everything. Why can't you fix it? You said you were going to build three and a half million homes. You're building like 111,000 a year.

[Gavin Newsom]

Something called a pandemic. That may have had a little impact. Issues of interest rates may have had a little impact on housing production.

[Charlie Kirk]

You guys are still outpacing every other state.

[Gavin Newsom]

But hold on, hold on.

[Charlie Kirk]

Except Hawaii.

[Gavin Newsom]

42 CEQA reform bills created a housing Accountability Unit. And we're, we're making, we're making big progress. We've done all this, we've been pounding in this space. There's no administration in modern California history that's done more to reform the housing space and the regulatory space as it relates to the issue of housing thing. The biggest challenge right now is NIMBYism. The biggest challenge we have is local planning and zoning. And that's why we've been very aggressive.

[Charlie Kirk]

Is a disaster. We agree on that.

[Gavin Newsom]

I mean, and. And so I have a yimby mindset on all this stuff. I'm in the front lines of this. Your friends. They are your friends down in Huntington beach that I'm suing.

[Charlie Kirk]

They're conservatives or what?

[Gavin Newsom]

The whole city council, they love you.

[Charlie Kirk]

The MAGA faith.

[Gavin Newsom]

They're 99.9 who's living.

[Charlie Kirk]

Who in red three. In whose head is that one of the smaller towns.

[Gavin Newsom]

We're suing them because of their rank NIMBYism. We have been very aggressive in this space. I'm waiting for one big thing we all are waiting for. And I think it had a biggest. Perhaps one of the biggest impacts that we don't focus on enough in the last election that was the issue of interest rates. As interest rates.

[Charlie Kirk]

Oh, they didn't buy. I believe they will come down and.

[Gavin Newsom]

You'Re going to see an explosion of housing production. I'm very confident in that in California.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah. But you also might see an increase in housing prices. Of course.

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, it's. To me, it's.

[Charlie Kirk]

It's all about supply. Right.

[Gavin Newsom]

Econ 101. Supply, demand.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah. It's just the biggest issue. California and Hawaii have the two highest, highest housing prices in the country. Hawaii has an obvious excuse. They only have so much land.

[Gavin Newsom]

No, it's.

[Charlie Kirk]

You guys don't have a lack of land.

[Gavin Newsom]

By the way, I haven't been governor for a century. Okay. I mean, Jesus. I mean, we've been.

[Charlie Kirk]

Hold on.

[Gavin Newsom]

But six years. And by the way, no excuse. I get it.

[Charlie Kirk]

You can't take credit for all the assets. You know, number one AI, number one nanotechnology. But you also. You also got to take responsibility for some of the more.

[Gavin Newsom]

More novel. I'm. Take a little more credit on the generative.

[Charlie Kirk]

Yeah.

[Gavin Newsom]

32 of the time.

[Charlie Kirk]

You have to balance both. Both the credit and the.

[Gavin Newsom]

I get it.

[Charlie Kirk]

And the blame. But I know I appreciate the quality of life. Right. So when I talk to a college kid, one of the reasons they saw Trump as a vessel for a better life is that under President Trump those first four years we saw a material increase in their livelihood, wages. Easier to buy a home. Four years. Four years like just the facts are the average wage to be able to own a home in la. To be able to own a home. Oh, yeah, it used to be $75,000 a year. Now it's $145,000 a year. So, I mean, what it does. And this is, again, it's creating this kind of belief system of Russian serfs of a generation that will never have the material American dream that their parents once enjoyed.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah, no, and I, Look, I think it's a full circle, this conversation where you began by identifying full circle back. No, but it's a point, the point you're making, Scott Galloway and others have been making as it relates to this generational theft. Yes, he's spot on on this. And I think there's, there's so much validity to you recognizing that problem and how one so diagnosing is one thing, but.

[Charlie Kirk]

And President Trump as well, he deserves credit.

[Gavin Newsom]

And I mean, I think. Yeah, he's. He deserves.

[Charlie Kirk]

I mean, I'm not. I want to get you to say.

[Gavin Newsom]

The words, by the way, I just spent almost 90 minutes with him in the Oval Office a couple of weeks ago.

[Charlie Kirk]

Isn't he the greatest?

[Gavin Newsom]

And, you know, I think it was the first Democrat invited in, and Trump, too.

[Charlie Kirk]

I mean, you got to admit, there's something magical. That guy, Joe Biden. Joe Biden couldn't do five minutes.

[Gavin Newsom]

By the way, I did almost 90 minutes with, with Biden right before he left in the Oval. By the way, that'd be a hell of a book. 90, you know, 180 minutes. I should do a book of the two of that bookmark. By the way, he. 100 was.

[Charlie Kirk]

Oh, come on.

[Gavin Newsom]

Just a fact. It's a, it's just, you can.

[Charlie Kirk]

Do you think there was any mental.

[Gavin Newsom]

There's.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay. No, no, seriously, you went around the country being like, he's. I'll take him at 100.

[Gavin Newsom]

There was one exception. And I. And just the one debate that. No, no, no. Before the debate, I was about to say, and that was the big fundraiser down in LA where I saw a different.

[Charlie Kirk]

The Clooney.

[Gavin Newsom]

And Clooney called that black.

[Charlie Kirk]

Right. But it was one.

[Gavin Newsom]

It was not. But that was. But, you know, so much of that focus was, all right, he just got back from Europe. But that was the one. One time. We don't need to get it.

[Charlie Kirk]

But I'm not. But I just say, Governor, just on that one topic, we saw with our own eyes for three years, and the media told us, no, no, he's perfectly fine.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Charlie Kirk]

And then we saw the debate, and, look, it makes us not trust our leaders when we say everyone is perfectly fine, the emperor's fine.

[Gavin Newsom]

Are you seeing any mental decline in Donald Trump right now?

[Charlie Kirk]

I see that. More sharp acuity. You tell me. You sat with them in the oval office for 90 minutes. The guy has a memory.

[Gavin Newsom]

I'm asking. I mean, I know. I'm just. I'm just asking.

[Charlie Kirk]

Of course not. No, I think he's.

[Gavin Newsom]

How often do you talk to Trump, by the way?

[Charlie Kirk]

Once or twice a week.

[Gavin Newsom]

Is he checking for advice, or is he. You. You. A little bit of both.

[Charlie Kirk]

It depends if there's something I want to talk to him about. But, I mean, he's just a machine. He'll take every call. You got to give him credit.

[Gavin Newsom]

Amazing.

[Charlie Kirk]

He'll take. Right? Every call. Thing's big, right?

[Gavin Newsom]

It's amazing.

[Charlie Kirk]

And he'll listen to every idea. He'll joust it out. He'll talk about it. He always goes back to, what did I promise the voters?

[Gavin Newsom]

What was the last idea?

[Charlie Kirk]

You get him the last idea?

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah. Mr. President, here's. Here's what you need. Or here's the thought.

[Charlie Kirk]

Actually, it was interesting. I said, I don't think Canada should be the 51st state. We already have California, and we have enough libs in our country.

[Gavin Newsom]

Jesus. On that.

[Charlie Kirk]

Thou shalt not take the Lord's name in vain.

[Gavin Newsom]

No, on that. That. I want to thank you.

[Charlie Kirk]

This was Gavin Newsom.

[Gavin Newsom]

This has been Gavin Newsom production. Thank you. This was fun.

[Charlie Kirk]

Thanks, man.