← This is Gavin Newsom
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- [00:01]
Ashley St. Clair
I think I'm most disappointed in Elon. I think divorce is an option when your spouse wants to kill you. Yeah, I was offered $40 million which included an NDA and non disparagement into eternity, which I declined.
- [00:12]
Gavin Newsom
So if you've ever wondered about the inner workings of the MAGA movement, what actually happens on the group chats? Who's on the group chats? How coordinated is the MAGA movement coming out of the White House in the political operation to influencers to right wing media? Well, I've got the perfect guest. You Ashley St. Clair. She spent close to a decade in this movement and now she is speaking out against the thing that she works so hard to advance.
- [00:45]
Ashley St. Clair
This is Gavin Newsome and this is Ashley St. Clair.
- [00:53]
Podcast Host/Producer
This is an I Heart podcast.
- [00:56]
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- [02:33]
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- [03:30]
Gavin Newsom
So Ashley, it's so interesting. Just a lot of clips out there about you, a lot of energy, a lot of, you know, a lot of conversations and it's, and you know, not, I think a lot of, you know, feigning praise, not criticism necessarily, but you're playing to an audience, right? You're sort of emerging out of this MAGA, sort of, you know, influence space, the surround sound that a lot of us are on the receiving end of, including myself. So I have some intimate appreciation for what they produce, but I have little knowledge for how they produce it. And so I'm fascinated by this opportunity. I'm very grateful for you be willing to share just your insights without, you know, and I'm not looking to tear anybody down, but just to understand the ecosystem that you came out of and why you're coming out of that ecosystem and what all of this represents to you. So maybe best way to start is really for you to introduce yourself in the context of this journey to our audience.
- [04:36]
Ashley St. Clair
I have to preface this too by saying apologies because I am almost positive I have probably cyberbullied you in my MAGA days because it's like a prerequisite to being in MAGA because you're a very popular figure for us to cyberbully. But I got my start very young. As soon as I, when I started college, right before I started college, there was a Trump rally on my campus. So I was immediately going to that and seeing this energy around it. And then I joined college, I had a bit more of a cerebral side because I was homeschooled in high school. So I enjoyed the more political aspects of the Young Americans for Liberty groups that were built on free speech and personal liberties. And then very quickly got involved in the Turning Point apparatus and tweeting into the ether about these conservatisms, these MAGA isms. And it just snowballed from there. All of a sudden, I'm invited to, as a special guest to my first Turning Point event. I have Charlie Kirk saying, you know, you're doing a good job. And I'm getting praise from Don Jr. And as like, a very broken, insecure girl who was looking for some sort of belonging, who didn't have that in high school that was really attractive to me in a harmful way. And then I just. I got caught up. I made a lot of very wrong decisions about who I surrounded myself with and the places that I got validation from, which ended up being MAGA and this influencer culture. And very shortly afterwards, you're in this environment in which they tell you, you don't need school, you don't need college, only listen to, you know, truth, Social and Twitter and all of this, and you're sequestered from information. You're told not to trust your professors or these points of authority. And I dropped out and just made this my entire identity. So then it's. When you leave, I often say it's not just changing your political beliefs and saying, oh, I'm not as fiscally conservative now or I'm more socially liberal. You're blowing up your entire life because your. Your social community, your finances, everything is structured in this way. So it's indistinguishable from a cult in that aspect.
- [06:48]
Gavin Newsom
Yeah. I mean, listen, you describe it. I mean, you by definition, start thinking in those terms. But let me unpack this a little bit. I mean, this notion of belonging, I think it's fascinating, this sense of belonging, this identity. And so you describe a Trump rally. I mean, was it really that moment? Was it just watching the. That energy, the crowd, this community that inspired you? Or were you naturally prone? Were you, you know, was your politics sort of leaning in that direction? Were you frustrated with the status quo and your. Or, you know, how did. How did. How did sort of that. How did Trump ignite in you? Or what was it that ignited it?
- [07:25]
Ashley St. Clair
It was more of this contrarian take. I always liked being a contrarian, and all of the heads of the philosophy department and I went for philosophy at that time, had signed a petition to ban Trump from campus. And in my head, I'm like, oh, that's antithetical to everything philosophy is about. But in retrospect, they were right, because this rhetoric was going down a very dangerous and violent path. But in my head at that time, as this, you know, I hadn't quite turned 18 yet. I went to this rally at 17 years old, and I turned 18 right before I started. And it was, you know, to me, I'm like, wow, there's all this energy and people like me, and this is fun. And I didn't have any of that in high school. I didn't go to prom. I didn't do any of that. So it was this validation very quickly that I had never really experienced before.
- [08:15]
Gavin Newsom
And were you. I'm just curious, were your parents political? Were you political necessarily, or just. You just had that little contrarian beat?
- [08:23]
Ashley St. Clair
So we moved from South Florida, which was a lot more diverse, and all my family's from New York, from Queens and other areas that are more diverse. But throughout my life, we also moved to very, very rural areas, such as Alabama and Montana. And so while I wasn't necessarily getting very conservative viewpoints at home, I was surrounded by it. Like in Montana, the most unique sentence ever. My only friend there was a female Mennonite lumberjack. And so it's like it's a town of 250 people. And so I wasn't really exposed to varying viewpoints outside of the Internet.
- [08:59]
Gavin Newsom
Right. And so you have this moment, they're trying to silence Trump. You're like, this is wrong. And by the way, you were quick to say maybe they were right, but maybe they weren't right. And that's a deeper conversation we can have about this notion of free speech and sort of the origin story of a little bit of what sort of has created this movement out of anger and frustration of quote, unquote, being canceled and not having necessarily those platforms that others, frankly, oftentimes take for granted. But I'm curious. You know, you talk about going, feeling some identity, some energy. You're homeschooled. Now all of a sudden, there's a community that's trying to pull you in. Is it just pull you in on the basis of just the joy of being the contrary and the joy of expressing yourself fully and the sort of diversity of opinion, what was the thing that sort of attracted sort of.
- [09:56]
Ashley St. Clair
It's also just having friends, you know, because when you're in such an isolated community, like in the middle of nowhere, Mont and then you're here and you're being invited as a special guest to Turning Point, and you feel like you're all of a sudden not this little Small girl, you're important and people care what you have to say. That's really validating in a harmful way.
- [10:18]
Gavin Newsom
And was it. So you talk about turning point. I mean, that was a turning point for you. I mean, was that organization. That was sort of the beginning of the organization, right, when Charlie was just starting.
- [10:29]
Ashley St. Clair
It was very early on and it was very campus oriented and again, simultaneously part of it's, it coincides with the content. Right. Because you're also posting online and there's these stories going up on Fox News of professors who say something that's a little too woke. And so you're, you're going to school, but you're viewing it through this content brain of, ooh, am I going to get one? Oh, I can't trust them. And so it really bastardizes your experience in academia because you're viewing it through this like Charlie Kirk, turning point, content brain. That is really harmful.
- [11:04]
Gavin Newsom
And when you were with Charlie, I mean, it's interesting, we started this podcast with Charlie and obviously tragic what happened to him. And I'm interested and look forward to your thoughts about where the movement is today. But what aspects of that movement, what was it about Charlie in the beginning of that movement that you really may not have identified with necessarily on the substance, but just the style that there was something here that he was doing that no one else was necessarily doing. What was, you know, success leaves clues. And he was successful at organizing the campuses. I'm curious, what, what examples, what cues did you see or clues early on of, of, of this sort of genesis of success?
- [11:47]
Ashley St. Clair
He articulated himself well, but also when you're, you're capitalism brained, you view any mode of success or ambition as a moral good. So ambition and success was equated with morality in my head. So I'm like, wow, he's so young and successful. And that could be me too. All I need to do is drop out of school and keep fighting the good fight. And so I think that's. But Charlie at times was also encouraging, you know, at times when I had tough times in Republican politics. And so he had this softer side that was captivating to people who were going through a lot. And I don't think he was quite aware of the way in which his organization was and has been used by people much bigger with a lot more money than him to utilize it for their own agenda and mobilize this sort of rhetoric across America.
- [12:39]
Gavin Newsom
So Ashley, how old were you at the time? I mean your young 20s this time or 27?
- [12:44]
Ashley St. Clair
Well, I'm 27 now. I was. This happened right away when I was 18, going on college campuses. I went to my first Turning point event, like 1920. And so it was very early on, and we.
- [12:57]
Gavin Newsom
So was this. I mean, did this become a profession then for you? I mean, you morphed in all of a sudden. What was the first opportunity to monetize, where you realize, wait a second, I'm getting paid for this?
- [13:07]
Ashley St. Clair
So it was actually. I had had, like, normal jobs working in campaigns and cleaning up bad data and volunteering, but I dated a man who was 10 years my senior, and I met him at the Young Women's Leadership Conference. And within a month of meeting him, he's like, move to Tampa with me. You can just do MAGA. Influencing. He was this big influencer guy, D.C. drano. And he's like, here's how you do it. Here's the sign you hold up outside of the ICE Detention center. This will go viral. Here's the shirts you can sell, the flags you can sell. And that's when I started learning how to monetize activism and learn that it's an industry.
- [13:48]
Gavin Newsom
It's interesting. And you made the point earlier, and you're reinforcing it now. I mean, the connection between the movement and the medium, which is the media and the clips and the virality and the ability to, quote, unquote, influence substantively and break through. And so that's interesting. So he sort of. He designed, in your mind.
- [14:07]
Ashley St. Clair
He molded me.
- [14:08]
Gavin Newsom
Yeah, he molded. And so you see her out there, and you're feeling a sense of community,
- [14:15]
Ashley St. Clair
connection, relationships, but also fear, because what that boyfriend of mine had drove into my head was there were a few times I found myself in controversy for, you know, stepping out of line for having a more reasonable take on reproductive rights or immigration. And he drove into my head, he said, never cross the base. Never cross the base. And that's very much prolific throughout maga. You're not supposed to do that. So. So while it was these good feelings, it was also very quickly a feeling of fear of stepping out of line and staying within the talking points. And, you know, you're going to get canceled now. You've dropped out of school, you'll lose your income, you're moving to a place far, far away. And so. So the fear aspect took. Took effect very early on as well.
- [15:01]
Gavin Newsom
It's interesting, and I want to unpack that as well, particularly, you know, what is the base with. It's the basis, whatever Trump says it is, because he seems to shape shift often on issues and with it, the base seems to move along with him. I guess it's just waiting for that cue. But I'm curious, just back to your first paycheck. Do you remember where you actually, you know, someone said, here's a thousand bucks, or, you know, how did it, how was. What was the, what was the formal relationship and role to someone that can write a check? The boss?
- [15:32]
Ashley St. Clair
I believe it was just an Instagram message or Twitter DM that was like, I'll pay you to retweet this or post this. And then I got, you know, other ones for wearing the T shirts or the deals for, hey, make your own T shirts. Anti socialist social club. All, all of the. I believe I also had one that said make California America again. There were a few of those, but it was just through DMs and here's a PayPal. And I'm like, oh, look at this.
- [16:00]
Gavin Newsom
Very quickly, you know, because I've gotten to know some of these folks and, you know, I have sort of an interesting history in relationship to a little bit of the Trump past and which I've unpacked modestly here on the podcast. But I'm curious, you know, how much of it for you was real versus performative? How much of it was substance versus style? Meaning were these true believers that you were surrounded by or performers that were just trying to sort of, you know, own the libs, own that governor in California and just don't, you know, don't California my Montana or my Texas. I mean, what, you know, what was it about what we're against or what we're for? Give me a sense of, you know, who were the early influences for you? Was it a sense of deep sincerity, conviction?
- [16:49]
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- [17:49]
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- [18:16]
Ashley St. Clair
That's innerbalance.com hi, I'm Cindy Crawford and
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- [19:23]
Ashley St. Clair
It started out that way and I think most of these people would tell you that they are true believers, but they're professional perform. They really are performers who have gotten so deep and their views have oscillated so much within what's acceptable within the base that they're just deeply broken and insecure people who lack any real sense of identity. What was fascinating is when you go to events or you go to the bar with these people afterwards, they can't talk about anything else. Like it's, they're only talking about, do you see what Joe Biden did? Did you see this? Like it's, they're not. They're shells of human beings who are wearing this MAGA costume and it's become their entire identity. Nobody's, nobody's really talking about real things and So I do believe that they're all performers. I believe MAGA has the deepest issues with identity that I've ever had the displeasure of interacting with.
- [20:20]
Gavin Newsom
And again, identity on the basis of just who. I mean, as individuals.
- [20:24]
Ashley St. Clair
Yes.
- [20:25]
Gavin Newsom
Who. Who that. Yeah, sort of. And they're in the process of becoming and discovering who they are, but they put this mask on.
- [20:32]
Ashley St. Clair
They've never had the opportunity to become because they've been plucked and told what to be and, and so they don't ever have that opportunity of becoming. And now with this age of the Internet, it's very hard to, to have that rebirth, to have that reinvention because you have this permanent digital footprint of you being a racist online. So it's very hard to have a rebirth after that. So they're kind of stuck in that as well.
- [20:58]
Gavin Newsom
It's interesting. So is this, I mean, so with your own experience and you know, a little bit of, with Charlie Kirk and Turning Point usa, you're starting a, you know, ex boyfriend and you know, learning how to post, as we say, and you know, putting on, you know, literally physically, you know, showing up with signs and T shirts, et cetera. Is it a loose confederation or has it evolved or devolved? Is it organized? Is it, you know, is it become radically different than it was three, four years ago? Trump 1.0 versus Trump 2.0? Are there sort of central key figures that are organizing and sharing down a vision? Or is it again a bottom up, but within the dear Leader's frame? What, how do you, how would you describe the confederation or lack thereof, the, the brand maga?
- [21:50]
Ashley St. Clair
So a lot of people will say, you know, they were duped by Trump and it's really evolved from what it was years ago. But what I would say to that is it did evolve into the form that people warned us it was going to evolve into. Yes, it has changed, but it changed into what I would say now is like this final form of this authoritarianism that we were warned that it was going to evolve into. It was a natural evolution of the things that were being prepped originally. Yeah, it was more open tent. It was a little more, okay, we don't hate trans and gay people. Okay. We, we love our token black conservatives. And then it really, once they gained more of a foothold of power, you saw that section off and I, I do believe that was by design, in design.
- [22:38]
Gavin Newsom
Where I mean, is, is this truck. Yeah. For power. And, and that power lies where is it Trump himself? Is it Junior? Is it where. I mean, who, you know, we can and we'll jump into some names and James more the contemporary names in the political operation. But early on, where did you see the power reside? You know, four, five, six years ago.
- [23:03]
Ashley St. Clair
Four, five, six years ago, the power was really with Trump. And I do believe that Trump as a figure was co opted by the Stephen Millers of the world and the people who are really financially invested and ideologically invested in their own vision for America. And now we're seeing it being co opted further by the tech oligarchs and all of this, that it's. The power is really consolidating among this. I mean, you have Jeff Bezos who won't say a bad thing about Trump now. So they're really aligning with where they see this power. Trump was years ago just a figure that they realized we can co op this guy for our own agenda.
- [23:41]
Gavin Newsom
And early on, who were the, who were those early figures and what were, what was, what was the agenda when you first started? I mean, obviously you talk about, I mean there's the issues of reproductive rights. You talk about some, those. I think there's contrarian issues and just, you know, anti, obviously the elites and you know, all those, the Biden and Harris and Obama types myself, Imagine California included. But what was, I mean, what was the uniting construct in the beginning of your experience with maga?
- [24:14]
Ashley St. Clair
The uniting construct was mostly these MAGA isms of free speech and holding the elites accountable. But there was also, particularly within the right wing online sphere, there was a lot of gendered issues. It was very anti feminism. It was the birthplace and the foundations of the Andrew Tates of the world. And what we're seeing now, that has really evolved. Very anti feminism. Very anti me too. Like, why are you just hating on the white guy type of stuff? And they would utilize people like me. And I remember there was a very large MAGA figure when I first started blowing up online who came to me and said, you should speak on this issue. I think it was Alita Battle angel or whatever. They were mad that Brie Larson had said something against white men, straight white men. And so very early on I was co opted to speak on these issues regarding men because it was better for it to come from a woman like me. And so that was very pertinent early
- [25:11]
Gavin Newsom
on was, and it's interesting you say co opted, meaning at the time you didn't feel co opted though, right?
- [25:18]
Ashley St. Clair
No, I thought they were coming to me because I was so such a special snowflake and so smart. And I was like, I've been Chosen and you know, I call it the pick me isms. Like, I just so wanted to be picked and heard and, and so in that moment you don't feel. But in retrospect I'm like, wow, I was, I was used by these people for something really, really harmful that I'm scared we're not going to be able to undo.
- [25:46]
Gavin Newsom
Did you. What was. Do you remember the. The post that really where you felt like you're now deep inside this, like, like now you're actually. You even surprised you. How viral a statement was or an issue was something that for you became more indelible and a consciousness of how powerful this movement is and how powerful even your voice would become.
- [26:08]
Ashley St. Clair
So for a while, I was like mostly a shit poster. I would pretend to be serious at times, but it wasn't really until I was with Elon that I would see some of these, these effects of my words or effects of Elon himself that I'm like, this is actually really consequential. And it sounds naive and stupid to say, oh, you didn't realize till then that your actions had so many consequences. And that's something that I've really had to unpack and unpack. The harm that I did for nearly a decade in this movement, saying things in the communities that I hurt, women, minorities, the trans community, I just didn't even consider. I was completely unempathetic to how my words and actions impacted other people. And I've had to do a lot
- [26:55]
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- [27:54]
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- [28:25]
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- [29:25]
Taco Bell Advertiser
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- [29:26]
Podcast Host/Producer
So good.
- [29:27]
Gavin Newsom
Your bill ladies.
- [29:28]
Ashley St. Clair
I got it. No, I got it.
- [29:31]
Podcast Host/Producer
Seriously, I insist.
- [29:32]
Ashley St. Clair
I insisted first.
- [29:33]
Podcast Host/Producer
Don't be silly. You know me, silly.
- [29:36]
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- [29:42]
Podcast Host/Producer
Okay. Rock, paper, scissors for it.
- [29:44]
Ashley St. Clair
Rock, paper, scissors. Shoot. No.
- [29:47]
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- [29:55]
Ashley St. Clair
work. Making amends for that and really saying, hey, here's where I went wrong, here's where I was lacking and trying to understand why I made those decisions.
- [30:05]
Gavin Newsom
So it's interesting and I don't want to over index our time on Elon, but as someone that knew Elon, you know, back in the day and seen him radically change from person, I remember back in the early 2000s, particularly politically.
- [30:27]
Ashley St. Clair
Yeah, I would say he probably didn't change. People just weren't listening to the stories, particularly of women that he was involved with. Because when you, you do read the words that his first wife Justine wrote, it was always there. We, we just Ignored it.
- [30:44]
Gavin Newsom
Yeah, no, I, well, I appreciate that, but he came into the movement, it seems, a little later, obviously, I mean, he wasn't necessarily part of Team Trump and MAGA as it's described, despite some of those political leanings, as you suggest, and those values. What, you know, you, you describe what a dm, that's how he reached out to you, just because he was impressed with some of the stuff you were posting.
- [31:07]
Ashley St. Clair
Yeah, I was at the Babylon Bee, which he had an affinity for at that time, and he ended up DMing me and then we met at Twitter headquarters, what have you. But even in his private conversations with me, that's another instance of co opting. I really do believe that he finds these populist movements, whether in the United States or the UK or Germany, and he, he realizes that they're very easy to co opt and manipulate for his own agenda of basically digitizing these governments and, and getting an insurmountable amount of data. And you know, that's one conversation I did want to have with you and just ask you because California was kind of at the forefront of this and allowed for a lot of these Silicon Valley and these tech companies to fester under California. And I guess the question I have for you is like Silicon Valley didn't just build software, it's built something that are the civilizational scale experiment that is unreasonably safe. And so why at least in California was innovation considered like this sufficient excuse and capitalism considered this sufficient excuse and justification to expose the public to such risk? And the most important question I have for you is did California become so economically dependent on Silicon Valley that it lost the ability to act as an independent watchdog for these organizations? And why was so much of this allowed to be built? And are there any regrets that you have?
- [32:44]
Gavin Newsom
Yeah, no, look, I think it's a fair question, but I think it lacks any context. California is the dominant leader in privacy. Dominant leader in regulation relates to AI. We led the nation. The first safety measures for large language models, frontier models. We created a Privacy Council 6, 7 years ago statewide council that's focused on data privacy. First state to advance. In fact, Connecticut just backed into a similar framework that California laid out as relates to the Delete act, which California did, as relates to our own data and having control over it. We led the nation as it relates to child protections, but we were sued by these same companies. We're in litigation and half dozen lawsuits, but we've led the nation in every one of these categories. We were very good.
- [33:33]
Ashley St. Clair
You guys have and You've done great work in terms of passing laws that help victims seek justice after the harm occurs. But I guess what gets me is there was also a lot of conditions that were able to be created before the harm was done. And how, how do we intervene before the harm is done instead of placing this burden on victims now to prove the harm after these products are deployed, instead of telling these companies to stop and placing a really hard stop on these technology companies before they prove safety. And I'm seeing that in the EU too. You know, I have these conversations internationally about the harmonies and it's like, why don't we just turn the spigot off? Like, is it because they're so powerful? Is it because they have so much force behind them? Like, why can't we turn the spigot off until they prove that it's reasonably safe, just like any other company? Like, if a pharmaceutical company has a drug, we make sure it's safe first.
- [34:37]
Gavin Newsom
There's no question that the collective we. And this, well before I was even governor, as it relates to social media and its harms, we failed on that. I had Tristan Harris on and others that have been real leaders in this, calling this out. We've talked a lot about it extensively, not only on this platform, but substantively in terms of our legislative efforts in the state to not make the same mistakes with AI. And so what you just described are the lessons that we've learned as it relates to adopting safety measures and transparency measures, as it relates to AI and what's happening in terms of, of how all this is going to be supercharged, as it relates to deep fakes, as it relates to privacy, as it relates to child protection. You're talking. The governor has more receipts than any other governor in the United States of America. We've done more than anyone else. Is it good enough? No. That's why this year we're going to ban social media for everyone under 16. We'll be the first large scale jurisdiction to do that again in the home state of this. And we imagine that's going to happen all across the United States because California moves, we tend to see movement all across the country. So not perfect, but no one.
- [35:44]
Ashley St. Clair
No. And you know, California is one of the only states doing it. And California is in such a weird position because while they're one of the only states doing this legislation, there's also been so much festering within California that it's, it's been built here. And so what is the answer to that?
- [36:04]
Gavin Newsom
Just, you know, back to Elon I mean, we've been battling, battling on these issues around deepfakes, around election, you know, just the integrity of our elections. And you know, you can look at his, you know, just the sewage of tweets that he's put out condemning our, our leadership in that including, by the way, where you and I are aligned as it relates to what happened to you and the litigation. And I appreciate your litigation against Xai, but, but you may have seen what was happening to you and others. California led and I directed our ag, our attorn to go after Grok and they actually stood down. I think it was a combination of your lawsuit and our investigation. And I think it was within a few hours after we posted that we're doing the investigation. And after a few days of what you did that Elon finally acted like
- [36:56]
Ashley St. Clair
he appreciate that too. You know, there's, I appreciate that.
- [36:59]
Gavin Newsom
So. No, look, I think you're right, but I, but I also think, I mean in terms of just the larger meta frame. But, but California as a specific example, has a lot of credibility, at least in trying to balance those things as it relates to the influence. The influence is usually on the back end. Ashley. It's interesting. We're passing these laws, I'm signing these laws, but they're litigating. And what they're using is the courts now to slow down the progress. And it's interesting where they don't have the throw with the legislature or maybe the governor. We'll see what happens to the next governor. They're counting on the slow system of adjudication with the third branch. And time is that's, you know, that's their ally.
- [37:49]
Ashley St. Clair
Yes, especially through, I mean the way in which they've co opted the judicial system to just tie all of this up. How do we fix that? I guess you're a better person at that. How do we fix that? How do we got to win?
- [38:02]
Gavin Newsom
You gotta win.
- [38:03]
Ashley St. Clair
How do you stop that?
- [38:04]
Gavin Newsom
You gotta be ruthless and winning. You can't be winning arguments. You gotta win power. You gotta get power back. You gotta take back the United States Senate, not just the House of Representatives, so you have oversight in these federal appointees. We gotta take back state houses so that we have governors that are appointing judges at the state level, particularly in states like California, that have outsized role in regulation, that reflect the broader values that I think you and I share in this respect.
- [38:30]
Ashley St. Clair
So it's, I love that approach too. Especially, you know, if we're, if we take it back to the beginning of the conversation too, with the philosophy professors signing that petition to ban Trump. Right. And whether or not that's. That's too hard. I. I think right now we're at a point where we can't ask if it's. If it's too much or if we need to be centrist or moderate, because they're not, as you're aware, they're fighting very hard and very dirty to. To a point that I don't know that we're going to be able to take that back. And. And so I hope that nobody gets stuck within this point of, like, oscillating between placating both sides and just sticking to the gutting instinct of what is right. Is this wrong? And if it is, we need to fight back with every force that we have instead of placating people who have been a part of a lot of harm.
- [39:24]
Gavin Newsom
I tend to agree with you. And we manifested, quite literally a frame that I think is appropriate to reference Prop 50. Fighting fire with fire. We did redistricting, you know, and I agree with you, our way back into power is through the fight, not necessarily through the center. But that said, you know, I also think. And it's the reason I started this podcast with guys like Bannon and Kirk and people I deeply disagree with and, you know, having people on there that have been attacking me and doing everything to take me down, not professionally, but personally, but I still believe divorce is not an option. That's the framework of this podcast, that we have to live together and advance together across our differences. And that's back to sort of my comments about Trump. I'll still talk to him. Open hand, not a closed fist. At the same time, we'll do Prop 50. We've had 63 or four lawsuits against Trump. We're gonna go hard back in terms of.
- [40:22]
Ashley St. Clair
I love that.
- [40:23]
Gavin Newsom
Of, you know, pushing back against, you know, all this bs Though I would disagree.
- [40:28]
Ashley St. Clair
I think divorce is an option when your spouse wants to kill you. I think that's. That's absolutely an option. When your spouse.
- [40:36]
Gavin Newsom
Yeah, well, you know, and I just. So that's why I wanted to unpack with you a little bit more, because I. I just, you know, everyone wants to be loved. Everyone needs to be loved. We all want to be, you know, the old frame, protected, connected, respected. That we want to be respect. No one wants to be talked down to or passed to. We want to be part of something bigger than ourselves. And so, you know, this. I think all that matters, that sense of belonging. And I get that at a Trump rally, people feel connected to something bigger than themselves. You talk in terms of relationships and friends. You know, that relationship, you know, with Elon, led to a beautiful child. And that's life, and we all live it. And I don't want to go that we breathe the same air. Nonsense. Except we do. And so.
- [41:17]
Ashley St. Clair
Well, some people breathe air that is polluted by data centers, you know, so we don't breathe the same air. Actually, some people's air is being polluted by mega corporations.
- [41:28]
Gavin Newsom
I get it. And we got to call that out. You're talking to the fiercest environmentalists in the country right here. Despite the fact that I believe in a transition that works, we're getting. That's another subject. About the fact I drove here today, and so, yes, I went to the gas station. Forgive me. So I'm hardly a purist, and sometimes
- [41:46]
Ashley St. Clair
I probably feel a little more cynical than some about maga, but it's because I. I saw them when they were alone. I saw them when they were drunk. I saw the things that they did and they said. And I don't think a lot of these people, particularly in power, are interested in some unified front. I don't. And we. We have to consider if you're letting the barbarians into the gate.
- [42:15]
Gavin Newsom
They let me into the gate. I had zero followers. Ashley, you can appreciate this as an influencer. I had zero. When I. When Charlie platformed me, when Bannon platformed me, when all of these guys, you know, Ben and others, I. Yeah, I'm not platforming anyone. They already have huge platforms. I just, you know, I can't. Just turning our back doesn't mean they turn off. And I think, you know, trying to understand what motivates people, trying to understand, you know, the why, what's the burning why allows us to be able to position ourselves and, you know, and. And fight back in a different way with a deeper sense of understanding. You got to know your enemy, as they say. But you also have to understand, you know, I come from the prison. Not everyone's an enemy. That underneath all of it, I. I don't know, I just. I find I'm. I'm a little bit more hopeful. And I appreciate you're a little more cynical. I used to be. You, Ashley.
- [43:09]
Ashley St. Clair
Optimistic. I'm optimistic that we can fight back. But I realize that the optimism has to be based on a really difficult fight where a lot of people are going to have to make material sacrifices. You know, I don't want to hear about how much money someone made anymore. I want to know about the money they turned down. I want to know what they've sacrificed. And not enough people talk about that. I want to hear what people regret. You know, I want to know what you regret as governor. Things that you could have done differently or. Because as we're building the system that aggregates humanity, I think it's just as important that we speak about the regrets so that whatever they're building knows what to avoid. And if nobody's being honest about that, that's going to be incredibly difficult to overcome.
- [43:58]
Gavin Newsom
I agree with you on that. And we can go back to my 1000 page Covid report and we can go through that list.
- [44:06]
Ashley St. Clair
He's got all his wins on a list. I love how much you know your win.
- [44:10]
Gavin Newsom
No, well, that's why we put so I couldn't agree with you more. You got to own up. You got to, you know, hell, I wrote a whole book on that. But that's what you're doing right now. And I appreciate that you're just being honest and transparent and you know, and you're not dream of regretting, I mean the fact that you're willing to confront, you know, you know, it's well known that you wrote a children's book that you regret writing sort of anti trans children book and, and, and, but also the things you posted. And so I want to talk just a little bit more about that because you know, right now, you know, I'm here, you know, Stone's Throw away where I first learned about this person, Laura Loomer. She was dressed up in a costume. She jumped over the fence here at the governor's mansion and she, you know, she broke sort of that barrier of privacy and she did it online and you know, got a bunch of followers and she's, I, I no fan of hers. I don't know of redeeming quality. I thought she was, I was a little embarrassed for her actually. I thought she needed a little help. But that was the beginning and then she blew up. Now she's a damn seems like real influence with Trump. And I'm trying to sort of unpack. I mean that's to me madness that she has somehow has the ear of the President. But you know, you have all these folks in this sort of right wing influence spirit. You got the ones like Laura that people seem to know about, Candace Owens that people seem to know about, obviously Tucker Carlson people know about. But you have also these other characters, this Jack, I can't even remember his name, you know, Posobic. I mean these are the guys in this Mike guy, Sharub whatever the hell his name is.
- [45:42]
Ashley St. Clair
Cernovic.
- [45:42]
Gavin Newsom
Yeah. These guys, I mean, these are the Pizzagate guys. I mean, literally, these are the people that were talking about sexual predators and they were, they did nothing. When you were being unmasked on Grok. The same.
- [45:55]
Ashley St. Clair
No, they did not. Especially these people who claim to care about women and children. And the only time they claim that is when they're targeting the trans community. Yeah. And a section of the population that's less than 1% of the population. And what I can say, especially as the Democrats try to navigate and they say, well, maybe we went too far on the trans issue. No, you didn't. Because these people are targeting less than 1% of the population. And that's really cruel and evil. And if we ignore that cruelty that they've done to this very marginalized group of people, it's going to be done to you. But what I can say about these influencers is we fixate on the caricatures and not the system and the architecture that has allowed them to prosper. And that is Twitter, that is X. And it is being manipulated in, in a way that I believe is really dangerous to the future of our democracy and elections. That we don't have transparency into how this data is being analyzed for election, which people are being boosted in this algorithm, which people are, you know that these characters are able to amass millions of followers despite being previously banned everywhere. And that is what needs to be fixated on. And so often the caricature of these people on the right get the headlines as opposed to governing the infrastructure that's allowing this. And that is really important.
- [47:16]
Gavin Newsom
I love what you're saying and I don't, I don't want to lose this thread, but I do want to sort of illuminate that their component parts, these guys are knitting these things together, this guy Jack and Mike and these others that people don't know about. And these are so these are the influencers that are dialing up the rage, dialing up the anger. They were dialing you up. Right. They were sort of building your platform and they're still at it. Right. I mean, these guys are, you know, they're part of, of, you know, these, you guys you've described and I'd love to you to illuminate further. These are folks on group chats consistently trying to help weaponize grievance. They've got the president's right hand person, potentially James Blair, the political operator.
- [48:01]
Ashley St. Clair
No, potentially James Blair is in these group chats. Members of the administration are in these group chats. They operate through group chats and have for many years in which they coordinate these messaging campaigns on what they're going to respond to, how they're going to respond to it, or not respond to it. It. It is incredibly coordinated and sophisticated in the way in which they coordinate this via group chats, via signal, via calls, with the administration and members of the campaign. So it is. And again, this primarily festers on on Twitter.
- [48:34]
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- [49:29]
Ashley St. Clair
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- [49:56]
Ashley St. Clair
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- [50:05]
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- [50:07]
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- [50:08]
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- [50:09]
Ashley St. Clair
No, I got it.
- [50:11]
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- [50:12]
Ashley St. Clair
I insisted first.
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- [50:24]
Ashley St. Clair
Rock, paper, scissors. Shoot. No.
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- [50:35]
Gavin Newsom
And back to that then. So the idea that Elon has Twitter idea that Elon ran one of the largest super PACs in US history, America PAC idea that he invested hundreds of millions of dollars that we know of Directly that he ran their field campaign, a big part of it. And that data collection, the fact that we do have someone as powerful as him is about to be exponentially more powerful when this IPO at Starlink, which I call it a Starlink IPO more than a SpaceX IPO. That's the one profitable side of it, at least. Least. You know, and it's amazing that rocket company, one has to acknowledge that. But Grox part.
- [51:13]
Ashley St. Clair
But even that, why do we acknowledge it? Why is it. You know, I. I used to think the same way. I'm like, it's. It's beautiful to go to the moon, to Mars, and expand consciousness. And you get involved in this Elon Musk of it all. But at the same time, it's like, why don't we leave the Moon alone? Why do we need the Moon? You know, like, why do we have to bastardize something so beautiful that everyone can look up and see something so pure? You know, My older son, he says, mama, if you're ever not with me, just look at the Moon and I'll be there.
- [51:43]
Gavin Newsom
I love you. This is the philosophy student in you. You're coming back to your roots.
- [51:47]
Ashley St. Clair
It's so pure and something that every human can look at and see something so pure. And it's like, I don't want to look at the Moon and think of American colonialism. I don't.
- [51:57]
Gavin Newsom
Well, he was supposed to be skipping it to Mars, but it seems that was. I don't want to look at Mars
- [52:01]
Ashley St. Clair
and think of that either. I don't want to make American colonialism on Mars. And it's like, why have we just accepted that? Yes, let's. Let's expand. Like, do we deserve to expand? We haven't even taken care of what we have now. Like, what do we deserve? Do we have the credit score for the moon? Do we have the credit score?
- [52:17]
Gavin Newsom
I know. I'm in California. Go west, young man. Go west. This notion of the frontier, that's, you know, that's part of the rugged individualism, the history of our country, and I think a big part of who we are as a species.
- [52:29]
Ashley St. Clair
Maybe we can go to Mars or the moon and then leave Earth alone so that all of the life here is untouched. You know, there's not other life on the other planet. So maybe we just put our diabolical species there and it'll be okay, and then we leave Earth alone. But, you know, it's. It's.
- [52:46]
Gavin Newsom
But the power of these algorithms, the power that Elon himself has to dialing up rage to determining what we see, what we hear, how we think, who we vote for. That seems disproportionate. The power of James Blair to connect and coordinate with all these influencers, to have the daily messages. You see it weaponized on Fox, the primetime line up there, which is Pravda. You see it on the right, all across the right wing sphere. I've watched the New York Post, the California Post to the Daily, all this stuff, this stuff and just the connective tissue. You and, and you were part of all of that. I mean, it's not, we're not overstating this.
- [53:26]
Ashley St. Clair
No, no, I was a part of that. I, I saw it. And you're not being hyperbolic and I don't, I don't think there's an under discussed aspect of this as well. Yes, they have the power to influence what you think, who you think about, but they also have the data on what's going to be the most useful and the best way to exploit that. If Cambridge Analytica was bad, this is Cambridge Analytica on methamphetamines and, and steroids at. And so it's the. How they know exactly how you think. They're creating this behavioral inference model that they know exactly which part of you to exploit, which vulnerability. It is like being in an abusive relationship where they know exactly where you're vulnerable and, and how to exploit that vulnerability to, to make you act in a certain way.
- [54:13]
Gavin Newsom
So I mean, and is there any, I mean, does the. Do you see anything on the left that's comparable or you don't want to see anything on the left that's comparable, but do you.
- [54:25]
Ashley St. Clair
I don't want to see anything comparable. And that's what really terrifies me is when I speak about these things, I see people on the left and the democratic side saying we need this and no, you don't. It's ontologically evil to have such unfettered capitalism and the effects of Citizens United so prolific that we don't have these disclosure laws. No, the left needs to be going hard in making sure that you cannot post anything. You cannot be paid to post anything. Anything, whether it's an opinion, an idea, a philosophy that you like Rousseau, without disclosing that. And that's what needs to change rather than building this evil apparatus for yourselves. I think that's if I think it's bad on the right, it's also bad on the left, but you can stop them from doing it with laws and regulations.
- [55:14]
Gavin Newsom
Ashley, let me ask you about that, because it's Interesting. We have a governor's race literally determine the primary today as we're, as we're taping this. And there's been a lot of reporting about. Influencers have gotten hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars. No one was aware of it. There was no. Nothing transparent about it. So is that, that's just a space. That's the Wild west, isn't it, for candidates and causes where influencers are paid and we think it's their voice. But there's no political. Even in a political sense, there's no, no rules necessarily for transparency.
- [55:50]
Ashley St. Clair
Yes, because the mechanism, as I'm sure you know, is the consulting houses. The consulting houses, they are advantaged by a degree of privacy that they shouldn't have. I think if you're a consulting house, who is on these FEC reports, you should have to disclose everything in your books as well. It shouldn't disappear once it hits a consulting house. That's so easy. I can start an LLC tomorrow. You pay me a million dollars for your campaign and I disperse it to my secret influencers and nobody will ever know. That should not be allowed to occur.
- [56:24]
Gavin Newsom
I think this. I couldn't agree with you more. This is an area that we're gonna have to significantly, I mean aggressively and quickly tighten up. So what you mentioned the other day and, you know, got a lot of attention. You posted something about 10,000. I mean, what the hell did you post? 10,000 layers. The implication the election was stolen, all the conspiracy theories. And I knew it. You had my friend say, I told you so. I'm like, oh, God, what's going on here? So tell. Tell us.
- [56:52]
Ashley St. Clair
People. People really need to. And I want to preface this by saying people should vote and they should vote loudly. There is some. Something to say about the right saying, you know, too big to rig. Everyone should turn out. And I don't want to discourage voter turnout when I talk about this experience. But shortly before the election in October, Elon had texted me and said, you know, I'm feeling more optimistic about the election, and tomorrow I'm going to release my anomaly in the matrix. I have lasers in space. And then he quantifies it. He says, I have over 10,000 lasers in space, which is nearly identical to the number of satellites he has. And I told him, I said I'd ask more, but I don't want to be deposed. And he said, wise. But something else I, I had said, I said, you know, if this ends up being your lasers in space end up being the reason that Trump wins, this would Be like a sci fi drama. And you know, he replied and agreed with that. So those are important aspects. What that means, I'm not entirely sure. I also have other information that, you know, I came across during my time with him and speaking to his engineers that is incredibly uncomfortable. But this again goes back to the governing architecture. Does anybody know. Is there any regulations or laws that right now saying you cannot use your data from your satellites for elections or for proprietary data? Is all of this being hid under proprietary data and intellectual property? That is not okay. And right now we don't have the infrastructure. There's not infrastructure or laws against using data from your space company, whoever space company it is, for whatever purpose you want. If it's private. We've had so much hidden under private capital and that needs to be addressed.
- [58:36]
Gavin Newsom
Why did actually, why do you feel the need to share that and why now?
- [58:40]
Ashley St. Clair
Because I'm speaking about my entire experience as honestly and openly as I can, including moments that made me really raise an eyebrow and say, this is concerning as someone who, you know, throughout my time in this relationship with Elon, he had also sent me data of real time Delta Vote Metrics lyrics in October from Pennsylvania and information from his pack. And as someone who was cleaning bad door knocking data from blitz canvassing Since I was 18, I looked at that and said there's no apparatus that I know of that can create that data. So what are your inputs? What inputs are you using? And that's the question that other people need to ask. And when people ask them, and hopefully governing bodies who come to me for this information, I can tell them what I know and what I think and the individuals who I spoke to as well. But. But what inputs create that level of certainty that nobody else had previously about when the election results were in? Those are the questions that need to be asked.
- [59:44]
Gavin Newsom
And when you start to. I mean you. You've expressed literal concern for sharing this information publicly. You even suggested. Did. Didn't suggest, I think you stated, and maybe you can clarify that, that there was an opportunity or effort to say, hey, you don't need to share this, Ashley, we'll take care of you. I'll take care of you. Write a big damn check.
- [60:04]
Ashley St. Clair
Yeah, I was offered $40 million which included an NDA and non disparagement into eternity, which I declined. Part of this information is. Is why, because I do believe him and his companies and everything that's being built to be incredibly consequential for the future of our country. The future of the country that my, my Children will have to live in the digital landscape that they'll have to live in. And I, I, I think there's a lot worse than being, you know, middle class in America. And that's okay. I'm comfortable with that to keep my integrity. And at least when push came to shove that I was able to turn that down. And, and I also think women need to speak up. I think a lot would not be allowed to happen if women stopped keeping a lot of secrets for men.
- [60:55]
Gavin Newsom
And is that because you're uniquely positioned, because you have a voice, because you have enough resourcefulness, if not the resources? I mean, what do you say to those other women? I mean, what about all these folks that are sort of trapped in this mindset?
- [61:11]
Ashley St. Clair
I think particularly the women of privilege. Like, I have a level of privilege having some sort of platform. And even if there's material hardship, I do have access to resources and educated individuals and people who are, well, networked that I can utilize. And there are many women within those Mar a lago and the Maga spheres that have that same access who can do something. And I'm very concerned about the proliferation of this privatized legal system through NDA. I don't think with most NDAs that there is any meaningful consent when people are signing them to pay their bills, feed their family or whatever. So I do think that's another aspect that needs to be addressed because it's how so much evil has been allowed to occur. And if we're supposed to be building a system to aggregate humanity and the honest version of it. But the honesty about the most powerful people cannot be sad because of NDAs and this proliferation of this industry of silence, then we have a problem.
- [62:11]
Gavin Newsom
Yeah, well said, by the way. I couldn't agree with you more. So look, Ashley, as we, you know, as you move forward, as we move forward, as we move into midterm elections, not making everything electoral, as we move, continue to move forward with this letter RIP attitude of the Trump administration as it relates to AI regulation or electricity, lack thereof. Sort of the David Saxification of regulatory policy. And, you know, highlighted by the fact that Elon and a few others, Zuckerberg, made calls to Trump to stop him from even a modest executive order to begin to do something. By the way, all they're trying to do is preempt California and our leadership on this. They've tried to neutralize California. We saw Governor Hochul and now Pritzker back into aspects of what California did to lead on some of the safety issues on AI. It's still not enough. I get it. And we have more work to do. But the contrast with Trump is pretty, pretty illuminating. How worried are you about fair and free elections? How worried about you? You know your son's father's going to be likely the first trillionaire in a matter of a couple weeks. How concerned are you, you about capture and these algorithms and just a handful of people deciding our fate and future in terms of what we read, see, hear and believe?
- [63:33]
Ashley St. Clair
I think people should be incredibly concerned about the elections just because of the new landscape we're creating. I often describe the Internet as we built this new planet. We're demanding that people inhabit it and live on it and we have no idea if there's enough oxygen for people here. And so we really need to be critical of this digital landscape and terrain that we've built and how that impacts our elections. From data to manipulation to perception, this is very important. Do I think that maybe there's lasers beaming down from space to change the vote on the Dominion machines? Probably not. But do I believe that very powerful technology from very powerful individuals is being exploited to create outcomes that they want? Yes, that's happened throughout all of human history. And to say that that's not happening would be incredibly ignorant to the these levers of capitalism. And one thing I want people to know is that the Silicon Valley bros would be very proficient in plantation accounting. And these are systems that we've seen before, just at a much larger scale.
- [64:39]
Gavin Newsom
So, and forgive me, I'm just sort of belaboring this and diving deeper. Deeper how? Embedded, from your perspective, are the operations on the inside maga and those operations with some of these elite tech titans, in the context of being even more deliberative in terms of hardwiring, they are intimately intertwined.
- [65:11]
Ashley St. Clair
This is why Big Tech was at the forefront of, of all of these issues within MAGA, especially in 2020. And then Mark Zuckerberg changes course and just look at who was front and center at the inauguration.
- [65:22]
Gavin Newsom
You had showing up. I mean, there's benefit just showing up, but that doesn't mean you're, I mean, is it your perspective that by showing up you're, I mean that they're taking, they're, they're not just dipping their toe of support, they're. They're swimming.
- [65:36]
Ashley St. Clair
Yes, they changed the algorithm. Some of these people who were previously banned or are not allowed to monetize on these platforms, the floodgates have been opened and they are allowed to do this. And there is an important distinction to make because I was very much on the free speech absolutism. And that's different when the audience you're speaking to is local or you're making local change or national change. But now you're demanding to be on this global platform and your words have global consequences. And to pretend like the rules of the Internet and these influence operations and speech can be comparable to that within your local town square is asinine.
- [66:16]
Gavin Newsom
You're going to law school, Ashley.
- [66:18]
Ashley St. Clair
Yes.
- [66:20]
Gavin Newsom
And so what's the, what's the. I mean, there's gotta be a book. Come on. You've. You're telling me you're not working on a book? It's impossible.
- [66:27]
Ashley St. Clair
You're not. I do write a lot. I write enough that if I wanted to make a book, I could publish it tomorrow.
- [66:33]
Gavin Newsom
So that's a. Yeah, yes. You're writing a book.
- [66:35]
Ashley St. Clair
I do. I write and I do a lot of like aid memoir. But it's not the right time for me to sell anything to anybody right now. It's just not. I, I have a lot of work that I need to do and financial amends that I need to make to the communities that I contributed harm to. And there's, there's going to be a lot of backlash for a while. I think there's also this, this effect where I'm the most accessible MAGA figure to many people now, so they like to take it out on me and that's okay and I understand. But there is, is when you leave, you realize the vast amounts of harm that you contributed to and the very real harm that I was ignorant to because of my own privilege. Like I just didn't have these experiences and there's, there's so much happening. They talk about the, the transfer of wealth. It's not really a transfer of wealth, it's a transfer of losses. Even if we take the SpaceX IPO, right, there's a lot of people who are going to lose loose in their 401 case and this is their pensions in their 401ks. The losses are being transferred to them because the big banks don't want to take the losses. It's this transfer of losses onto the lesser people that I, I think we really need to consider and start demanding that people in positions of privilege take more losses on themselves.
- [67:52]
Gavin Newsom
Making me think of Trump and Melania's or Donald and Melania's meme coins points and concentrate. All the losses are absorbed by the base of the party and we're better than them. What? By the way, I didn't ask you the obvious question, what was the trigger that made you say, I got to get the hell out of here?
- [68:12]
Ashley St. Clair
There were many things. I always say it was cumulative, like, I saw so much harm, but I didn't have the coconuts to leave. I didn't have the courage to leave. But then once you're given an offer like a $40 million NDA and you're looking at your two kids who you want nothing but the best for, and you have to say, like, what, am I going to have integrity right now? Or am I going to have a Birkin? And so I had to make that decision. I'm like, am I going to buy a house for my kids, or am I going to struggle and do the right thing? And I decided to struggle and do the right thing. So that was the moment that I'm like, okay, well, once I say no to this, because once you say no to a man like Elon, it's as if you never said yes, you know, So I knew what the effects of telling him no were going to be.
- [69:00]
Gavin Newsom
Are you been surprised by people in the movement that have remained loyal to you, that are quietly have your back, that are cheering you on?
- [69:10]
Ashley St. Clair
No. And there's a lot I've been surprised by more of the people who have resonated with what I'm saying and said they really want to speak out. But I'll tell you, a lot of these people can't because of NDA, because of their employment agreements with fox, because of their agreements with various companies. And that needs to be addressed. If we want more people to speak out there, there has to be, this has to be addressed, this proliferation of NDAs, and we have to protect them.
- [69:38]
Gavin Newsom
Who's been the most vicious to you? Who's who? Are you really disappointed that you're like, I mean, that are really taking it out on you for, quote, unquote, selling out or something, or turning your back to the movement.
- [69:51]
Ashley St. Clair
I think I'm most disappointed in Elon.
- [69:55]
Gavin Newsom
Yeah, well, on that note, You could substitute that response to many questions, but
- [70:10]
Ashley St. Clair
no, actually, I will say I'm most disappointed in myself.
- [70:16]
Gavin Newsom
Regret who you were.
- [70:18]
Ashley St. Clair
I'm most disappointed that I didn't have courage sooner. And I would encourage anyone who's still in that to, to not let a, a decade of, of regret pile up.
- [70:32]
Gavin Newsom
I mean, it's a, it's, it's a mature thing to say. And, and, and it's, and it, look, it's, you know, I, I, I, I, I, I wish you the best, and I hope, I hope you don't feel exploited by folks like myself on the other side of this. That will obviously be chasing you to sort of exploit the other side. No, and I think stay true to
- [70:53]
Ashley St. Clair
what you really believe, having an open conversation, because I could have come on here and just been, you know. Thank you, Governor. But there, there, there were things that I want to ask you about that just with my personal experience with tech and AI, that I've come to the understanding that, okay, if you're gonna do it, make sure that you're honest and you don't hold anything back. So I appreciate you for being open with those conversations and concerns as well.
- [71:18]
Gavin Newsom
I appreciate it. I appreciate highlighting, I mean, just a new age of transparency and accountability, but also what's so opaque and we're not even looking at in terms of the rules and regulations and truth and trust. And so this has been a fun conversation. Ashley, I really appreciate you taking the time and good luck with everything and, and thanks again for joining us.
- [71:38]
Ashley St. Clair
Thank you.
- [71:40]
Ryan Reynolds
Thank you.
- [71:45]
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- [72:10]
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- [72:43]
Taco Bell Advertiser
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- [72:44]
Wells Fargo Advertiser
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- [72:46]
Ashley St. Clair
I got it. No, I got it.
- [72:48]
Podcast Host/Producer
Seriously, I insist.
- [72:50]
Ashley St. Clair
I insisted first.
- [72:51]
Podcast Host/Producer
Don't be silly. You know me, silly.
- [72:53]
Wells Fargo Advertiser
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- [73:00]
Podcast Host/Producer
Okay. Rock, paper, scissors for it.
- [73:02]
Ashley St. Clair
Rock, paper, scissors. Shoot. No.
- [73:05]
Wells Fargo Advertiser
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- [73:12]
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- [73:42]
Podcast Host/Producer
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