And, This Is Governor Newsom Live At The DealBook Summit With Andrew Ross Sorkin

Summary

Podcast Summary: “And, This Is Governor Newsom Live At The DealBook Summit With Andrew Ross Sorkin”

Podcast: This is Gavin Newsom
Host: Andrew Ross Sorkin (DealBook/iHeartPodcasts)
Guest: Gavin Newsom, Governor of California
Date: December 5, 2025
Theme: A candid, no-holds-barred conversation between Governor Gavin Newsom and Andrew Ross Sorkin at the DealBook Summit, tackling the direction of the Democratic Party, wealth inequality, Trump-era politics, political communication, Silicon Valley, and Newsom's own potential future in national leadership.

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Main Theme & Purpose

The episode centers on the transformation of the Democratic Party, America’s political polarization, policy debates on wealth and economic inequality, ethical challenges in business and politics, and Governor Newsom’s vision for fighting the current political climate. Newsom addresses criticism, his unique communication strategies (mirroring Trump), Silicon Valley’s shifting alliances, and speculation about his own political ambitions.

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Section 1: The State and Future of the Democratic Party

Key Points

• The Old Democratic Party is Gone (04:12–06:17)

  • Newsom asserts the “Democratic Party of old is no more,” emphasizing a shift toward offense, unity, and renewed energy post-recent election wins in CA, VA, NJ, PA, and GA.
  • “We’re finally back on our toes, not our back heels. ... as a consequence, we’re winning again.” (Gavin Newsom, 04:12)

• Party Unity Amid Policy Divides

  • Newsom wants the party to be a “big tent,” welcoming “pre-distribution” and “redistribution” Democrats, but recognizes ongoing internal debates.

• Analyzing Election Losses (06:17–08:33)

  • Newsom provides a granular breakdown of the party’s recent failures, citing inflation, interest rates, border issues, incumbency fatigue, and a need to appear more “culturally normal” and less judgmental.
  • On economic disparity: “If we don’t democratize our economy, we’re not going to save democracy.” (Gavin Newsom, 07:45)

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Section 2: Wealth Taxes & Economic Inclusion

Key Points

• Opposition to California Wealth Tax (08:33–10:03)
  • Newsom rejects a state wealth tax for practical reasons: “You can’t isolate yourself from the 49 others. We’re in a competitive environment.” (Gavin Newsom, 08:42)
  • Cites technical and logistical hurdles to taxing wealth fairly and the political reality of most opposition to a ballot initiative.
• Addressing Inequality Without Direct Wealth Taxes
  • Focuses on actionable affordability measures (e.g., $11 insulin by manufacturing instead of subsidizing; utility rebates; grid innovation).
  • Praises “baby bonds” backed by Cory Booker and Ted Cruz to create opportunity for all children.

Notable Quote

“Plutarch was warning the Athenians that the imbalance between the rich and the poor is the oldest and most fatal ailment of all republics ... it’s off kiltered now, and it has to be addressed.”
— Gavin Newsom (09:32)

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Section 3: Newsom’s National Profile & Political Ambition

Key Points

• 2028 Presidential Speculation (12:06–13:24)

  • Sorkin references Politico calling Newsom the 2028 Democratic frontrunner. Newsom demurs but admits he’s thought about it: “I’d be lying. ... I hate those politicians say I haven’t thought about the future in that respect.” (Gavin Newsom, 13:01)
  • Stresses focus on fighting Trump and preserving electoral fairness, not personal ambition.

• Fears of Authoritarianism & Election Integrity (13:24–16:50)

  • Newsom argues 2026 could see the end of free and fair elections if Democrats lose the House.
  • Condemns Trump’s use of federal law enforcement and military to intimidate voters and stage “competitive authoritarianism.”
  • Quotes: “Wake up to what is going on in this country. It is code red.” (Gavin Newsom, 15:42)

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Section 4: Prop 50 and Gerrymandering

Key Points

• Defending Temporary Redistricting Changes (17:20–18:35)
  • Newsom maintains support for independent redistricting but says recent emergency measures were justified to counter Trump’s maneuvers elsewhere.
  • “A temporary response to an emergency of Donald Trump's making was appropriate.” (Gavin Newsom, 17:20)

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Section 5: “Trolling” Trump and Political Communication

Key Points

• Mirroring Trump’s Rhetoric (18:36–21:31)

  • Newsom unapologetically admits to using Trump’s “iterative style”—mimicking and parodically escalating Trump’s own language and tactics.
  • Notable Exchange:
    • Sorkin reads a recent Newsom post using terms like “seriously demented piggy” and “dimwit avengers.”
    • Newsom defends this as an attempt to “wake everybody up” and combat “normalization of deviancy.”
  • “I tried to put a mirror up to what the hell is going on in this country. This is not normal behavior.” (Gavin Newsom, 19:21)

• Trump Signature Series Knee Pads Satire

  • Newsom quips about selling “Trump signature series knee pads” as merchandise, mocking corporate and university leaders for currying favor with Trump.
  • “By the way. Some of you may need to buy them in bulk.” (Gavin Newsom, 21:31)

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Section 6: Trump’s 2028 Ambitions & Election Fears

Key Points

• Potential for “Presidency Beyond 2028” (27:34–29:36)

  • Newsom suggests Trump’s health may ultimately limit his ambitions, but takes seriously attempts to manipulate future elections—including laying groundwork for extending influence even past a second term.

• Concerns About Election Security

  • Describes Trump’s plans for federalized National Guard quick response teams as deeply troubling.
  • “It’s a series of things...that stacking creates a lot of stress from my perspective.” (Gavin Newsom, 30:39)

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Section 7: Silicon Valley and Shifting Political Alliances

Key Points

• Tech Leaders Leaving California—Or Not? (30:39–33:39)

  • Newsom downplays the “big move” out of California, noting that most high-value tech and R&D remains.
  • Acknowledges shifting loyalties among certain tech leaders, especially those veering toward Trump, but calls some of it fiduciary posturing.

• Grift and Self-Dealing in Tech and Government (33:39–36:24)

  • Cites a New York Times investigation, calling current scale of capital self-dealing and conflicts of interest in Trump-era politics “a different level” than historic coziness between Silicon Valley and previous Democratic administrations.
  • “There’s nothing equivalent about what’s going on in the United States right now as it relates to crony capitalism and self dealing, period, full stop.” (Gavin Newsom, 34:45)
  • Advocates for stronger ethics enforcement.

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Section 8: Defending California’s Record

Key Points

• California as National Standard-Bearer? (36:24–39:41)
  • Newsom robustly defends California’s economy, innovation, and growing Fortune 500 presence, rebutting criticisms about debt, homelessness, and business outflow.
  • “We went from the sixth largest economy to the fourth ... $4.1 trillion a year ... The future happens in my state first, where America’s coming to traction.” (Gavin Newsom, 37:18)
  • Admits progress on struggle areas is slow but ongoing.

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Section 9: Corporate Fealty and Cronyism

Key Points

• Criticizing “Dear Leader” Culture (39:41–42:03)
  • Newsom blames Trump for fostering unprecedented business fealty and rewarding companies that “kiss the ring.”
  • Distinguishes between necessary fiduciary action and participatory complicity in crony capitalism.

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Section 10: Regulating AI and Climate Policy—State vs. Federal Power

Key Points

• Regulating AI, Emissions: State or Federal? (42:03–45:39)
  • Reflects on historic leadership from CA in environmental regulation; criticizes rollback of fuel efficiency standards by auto industry and federal government.
  • Warns that US is falling behind China in EV and mobility tech due to current policy “doubling down on stupid.”

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Section 11: The Democratic Bench—If Not Newsom, Who?

Key Points

• Qualities Needed in the 2028 Nominee (45:39–47:20)

  • Values “pragmatism” and the ability to “repair the breach” in America.
  • “Divorce is not an option” for the nation; must engage with opposing views respectfully (as he’s done on his own podcast).
  • Open to any hard-headed pragmatist, mentions Kamala Harris, Andy Beshear, Wes Moore, jokes about Mr. Beast running.

• Republican Field

  • Anticipates Trump controlling his own succession, with possible mention of Rubio, J.D. Vance.

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Section 12: Newsom’s Life Outside Politics

Key Points

• If Not In Elected Office... (48:08–50:03)
  • Newsom is an entrepreneur at heart, built businesses post-college, and is passionate about private enterprise and risk-taking.
  • Plans to publish a book: “Young Man in a Hurry” (Feb 23).
  • Emphasizes the importance of “the office of citizen” above all other offices.

Memorable Closing Quote

“In a democracy, the most important office is office of citizen.”
— Gavin Newsom (49:01)

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “If we don’t democratize our economy, we’re not going to save democracy.” (07:45)
• “I tried to put a mirror up to what the hell is going on in this country. This is not normal behavior.” (19:21)
• “Wake up to what is going on in this country. It is code red.” (15:42)
• “There’s nothing equivalent about what’s going on ... as it relates to crony capitalism and self dealing, period, full stop.” (34:45)
• “The most important office is office of citizen.” (49:01)
• “Divorce is not an option.” (46:28)
• “I encourage you, if you’re bored, Google [Trump signature series knee pads] right now. ... Some of you may need to buy them in bulk.” (21:31)

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Key Timestamps for Major Sections

• Democratic Party shift: 04:12–06:17
• Wealth Tax & Inequality: 08:33–10:03
• 2028 Speculation & Authoritarian Threats: 12:06–16:50
• Gerrymandering & Prop 50: 17:20–18:35
• Trolling Trump & Rhetoric: 18:36–21:31
• Trump and Future Elections: 27:34–30:39
• Silicon Valley & Political Realignment: 30:39–36:24
• California’s Defense: 36:24–39:41
• AI, Regulation, and Climate: 42:03–45:39
• Next Democratic Leaders: 45:39–47:28
• Newsom’s Life & Philosophy: 48:08–50:03

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Overall Tone

Engaged, intense, combative yet self-aware and humorous. Newsom wields sharp critique, directness, and biting satire, wielding both policy depth and rhetorical flourishes, while Sorkin presses for clarity and candor.

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Summary Conclusion

This conversation places Gavin Newsom squarely in the debate over America’s political future—willing to grapple face-to-face with the challenges of polarization, economic inequality, crony capitalism, and the “Trumpist” approach to democracy. Whether or not he seeks the presidency, Newsom positions himself as both a defender and critic of his party, invoking both urgency and pragmatism as America approaches a crucial and tumultuous political era.

Transcript

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Please welcome Andrew Ross Sorkin and his guest, Governor of California, Gavin Newsom.

Gavin Newsom is here, everybody. Governor of California.

[Gavin Newsom]

Hello.

[Kev OnStage]

Hello.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Governor.

[Gavin Newsom]

Following Mr. Beast.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

That's following Mr. Beast.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I am so glad you're here. And I just want to say the reason that I wanted you to come here more than anything else right now is I think we're in a moment where the country is trying to figure out the public politics of the country, but in particular the Democratic Party and the future of the Democratic Party and where it all goes next. And this governor has become perhaps one of the most vocal critics, frankly, of this president, often mirroring his own language on social media. We'll talk about it in his home state of California. Artificial intelligence, of course, booming. But you're also dealing with a crowd in Silicon Valley who's moved, I think, in other directions and. And I want to discuss all of that and in Prop 50 and everything else. So welcome to DealBook. Thank you for being here.

[Gavin Newsom]

Good to be with you. Good to be with everybody.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

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[iHeartRadio Ad Host]

You know what your customers are doing right this second? The exact same thing. You are listening to me. Which, let's be honest, is kind of flattering. But my point Is ads on iHeartRadio actually get heard in the car, at.

[Gavin Newsom]

The gym, on the couch, while people.

[iHeartRadio Ad Host]

Are walking their dogs.

[Gavin Newsom]

Who's a good boy? Who's a good boy? You're a good boy. That's right there.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

You're a good.

[Gavin Newsom]

So why not make the next ad about you? Get started today.

[iHeartRadio Ad Host]

Call 844-844-IHEART or go to iheartadvertising.com that's 844-844-iheart or iheartadvertising.com hey there.

[Dr. Jesse Mills]

Dr. Jesse Mills here. I'm the director of the men's clinic at ucla, and I want to tell you about my new podcast called the Mailroom.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

And I'm Jordan, the show's producer. And like most guys, I haven't been to the doctor in way too long. I'll be asking the questions we probably should be asking, but aren't.

[Dr. Jesse Mills]

Every week, we're breaking down the world of men's health, from testosterone and fitness to diets and fertility. We'll talk science without the jargon and get you real answers to the stuff you actually wonder about. So check out the mailroom on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.

[Gavin Newsom]

What up, y'?

[Dr. Jesse Mills]

All?

[Kev OnStage]

It's your boy, Kev onstage. I wanna tell you about my new podcast called Not My Best, where I talk to artists, athletes, entertainers, creators, friends, people I admire who've had massive success about their massive failures. What did they mess up on, what is their heartbreak, and what did they learn from it?

[Gavin Newsom]

I got judged horribly.

[Kev OnStage]

The judges were like, you're trash. I don't know how you got on the show. Check out Not My best moment with me, Kev OnStage on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Start there. Let's just start at the beginning here of the Democratic Party. You recently declared that the Democratic Party of old is no more. And I wanted to know what you meant by that. I think this was in the wake of Proposition 50's win in California and of course, the wins in Virginia and New Jersey. But why you think the Democratic Party of old is. Is not the same and what it.

[Gavin Newsom]

Looks like, I say it in contextual terms, that we're finally back on our toes, not our back heels. We're finally on the offense. We're finally beginning to shape shift, and we're finally beginning to fight. We've woken up, and as a consequence, we're winning again. A year ago, we were all there hand wringing, because we were a party that appeared weak, out of touch, a party that was not fighting back, was not asserting itself. And so from my perspective, I thought November and what it represented in New Jersey and Virginia, what it represented, many respects here, but also in Pennsylvania and Georgia and elsewhere, and certainly with Proposition 50, was demonstrable proof, including last night, that our party's now back on its toes. And it's a party now that has got more enthusiasm, and it's a party that I think is more unified.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Okay, but you say unified. What does that party look like? So there is a wealth tax proposal in California that I think you are adamantly against.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yes, I am.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

And we have a mayor that's coming here in New York who would like to have a wealth tax if he could. You couldn't be more diametrically opposed.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah, well, I want to be a big ten party. It's about addition, not subtraction, but this.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Idea of a unifying theory of the case.

[Gavin Newsom]

I mean, I think we. We all want to be protected. We want to be respected. We all want to be connected to something bigger than ourselves. We have fundamental values that I think define our party about social justice, economic justice. I think we recognize it's important to focus on growth, but also focus on inclusion. We have pre distribution Democrats, we have redistribution Democrats. And therein lies the dialectic, and therein lies the debate within the Democratic Party. We also have Democrats that are representative of their districts, representative of the people that they represent. So much punditry has been done about, well, is the future of the party. Mandami, at the same election that occurred. Well, is the future. Hold on. Virginia is the future. New Jersey is the future.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

So. But which is it? And that's the question about the unifying theory question, which is you could have a big tent. But if the theory of the case are so diametrically opposed, how split and broken is the party?

[Gavin Newsom]

Look, the party's knitting itself back together. We got shellacked in the last election, and there's been a lot of forensic analysis, perhaps not enough about what happened. Donald Trump crushed us in the last election.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

And what do you think happened?

[Gavin Newsom]

I'm up to page 28, my analysis of what happened, but at the end of the day, you know, I think we have to become.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Give us a couple of the pages.

[Gavin Newsom]

Now, look, I mean, you know, we could talk about why Kamala lost, which is separate. I mean, it's part derivative of the larger narrative. But issues around inflation scars. We don't talk enough about interest rates. We don't talk about incumbency issues related. You just had BV on related Israeli politics, immigration, the border in particular. You could talk about all those things. Not just 107 days, not just talk about Biden's determination or lack thereof in terms of passing the baton. But I think there's a broader narrative that we ought to address that is we have to be more culturally normal we have to be a little less judgmental. We have to be a party that understands the importance and power of the border, substantively and politically. We have a party that I think needs to design and develop a compelling economic vision for the future where people feel included to reconcile the fact that if we don't democratize our economy, we're not going to save democracy. And I don't think it's healthy that we have 10% of people that own two thirds the wealth in this country. I don't think it's sustainable practice. The folks watching Mr. Beast disproportionately 30 year olds, the first generation in history not doing better than their parents. There's some underlying issues here that have to be addressed. We have an economy that is broken for too many people. And I say that as someone that doesn't begrudge other people's success. I do that as someone that believes not in redistributive policies, believes in progressive tax policy, but is mindful that businesses can't thrive in a world that's failing. And I think that's foundationally and fundamentally what Trump understood. It's what people like aoc, Bernie and Mandami understand from a narrative perspective. But the policies that shape that, I think will also shape the comeback for the Democratic Party.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Okay, but let me ask then about wealth taxes, because it's just, it's an easy one to discuss in certain ways. You're not for wealth tax in the state of California.

[Gavin Newsom]

You can't isolate yourself from the 49 others. We're in a competitive environment. People have this simple luxury, particularly people of that status. They already have two or three homes outside the state. It's a simple issue. You've got to be pragmatic about it. Plus, there's some simple questions that haven't been answered. Very simply is how the hell do you determine it? Is your mark to market? Where's your asset base? How do you make that determination in terms of just what the basic assessment is? We have one individual.

That represents one labor union in the state of California that has not collected one signature that is considering putting on the ballot after he collects signatures, a wealth tax that vast majority of labor opposes and almost everybody I know opposes. So it's not something to be panicked about. But it's part of the broader concern and narrative that's developed in this country of the haves and have nots. Not just income inequality, but wealth inequality. And look, it doesn't take much. You go back, read an old plutarch comment, quote 2/000 years ago, Plutarch was warning the Athenians that the imbalance between the rich and the poor is the oldest and most fatal ailment of all republics. It's so foundational and it's off kiltered now. And it has to be addressed. And that's why I talk about growth and inclusion. And I think that's.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

But how do you address it if it's not for taxes?

[Dr. Jesse Mills]

Well.

[Gavin Newsom]

I'm around. Well, we can get in many issues related to affordability and reducing costs, not just subsidizing costs. I'll give you a proof point of that. This is not an answer, but it is a proof point. We just came out with $11 insulin. We're not subsidizing the cost of insulin, we're manufacturing it. Reducing costs, not subsidizing cost. We just came out with a new Strategy to provide $60 billion of utility rebates in the state of California through our cap and Invest program, regionalizing our grid with other Western states to lower costs, deal with curtailment issues, create more stability on our grid to also address that issue as it relates to broader issues for our party. Also, I believe fundamentally that our interventions come too late. One of the things that has come too late. But I'm glad its moment is here, interestingly, because rare am I out there promoting what Ted Cruz is promoting. But Cory Booker and Ted Cruz, absolutely right in the big beautiful bill. These baby bonds. That's good policy, by the way. I did it four years ago, $1.9 billion for 3.4 million students going into kindergarten, getting child savings accounts up to $1,500. That's about creating opportunity.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Talking about what's called. Some people are calling the Trump accounts.

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, Trump is literally vandalizing it by putting his name on it. And we can get into broader issues there. But it's a good idea. And all these conversations are very familiar. People are now talking about UBI Mincom and all that. Now it's moved to universal basic capital and equity and sovereign welfare. This is the conversation we need to start having because again, we have got to democratize our economy.

Democracy cannot withstand this kind of disparity for long.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Let me ask you this. You're talking in a very national way. So I'm just going to go straight at it. Politico says this about you. The headline admitted Gavin Newsom is the 2028 frontrunner. For years, Democrats and pundits have rolled their eyes at Gavin Newsom. They say, but he's positioned better than anyone else. For the future of politics. Now, what do you think of that? I assume you'd like that trying to.

[Gavin Newsom]

Sell links to Politico is what it sounds like. Look, I, I'm humbled by that because it's rather remarkable.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

You were counted out.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah, well, fine. Most of my life I have been. I'm a 960sat guy.

You know.

So used to it.

But you know what? I'm trying to meet this moment and I'm trying to be accountable to this moment. I'm not thinking. I know there's a lot of speculation about the future. And I said to someone who asked me directly, have you ever thought about it? I said, I'd be lying. I hate those politicians say I haven't thought about the future in that respect.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Ok, how much are you thinking about it then?

[Gavin Newsom]

Not to the degree that you think.

And perhaps others that are more cynical. I really am serious about this.

For me, it was all about 2025. It was about fighting fire with fire. It was about being accountable, not just rhetorically, but substantively, to address what Donald Trump is trying to do to this country. He's trying to wreck this country. Tried to do that on January 6, tried to light democracy on fire. He dialed for votes down there, said, find me 11, 12,000 votes with the Secretary of State in Georgia. He did the same thing when he said he's, quote, unquote, entitled to five seats when he called Greg Abbott. He's trying to rig the midterm elections in 2026 before one vote is cast. And what he expected is California would sit back, maybe work to write an op ed, hoping that the New York Times would run it to say what a terrible thing this is. They did not, and he did not expect us to go out and raise $118 million over a 90 day period and put our independent redistricting commission on a new status for three year temporary and transparent new maps in order to counter what happened in Texas. That is critical. What's Also critical is 2026. You will not have. And I don't. You know, I imagine half of you may just roll your eyes. I believe this in my core of my heart. You will not have a free and fair election as we know them today in the United States of America if Speaker Jeffries is not sworn in a year plus from now. I really believe that. Sure, there'll be elections. Competitive authoritarians love elections. Putin, I think, got 87.3%. The runner up was 4.3. That's what I mean by competitive authoritarianism. Ask Folks in Hungary and Orban, what's going on in Turkey, that's the model for Trump. I don't think that. I know that on the basis of a lot of evidence. In fact, we, I saw, in fact, examples of that the day of our election just a few weeks ago, where Donald Trump set out BORTAC teams, border patrol, tactical units to Dodger Stadium to chill free expression, to chill election turnout. He said the day of the election, before one vote was cast, he said this was a rigged election, sent out his DOJ with no basis, no business to being there for a state ballot. He sent Greg Bovino and his secret police that seemed to have taken oath in office to him, not the Constitution of the United States, to our campaign kickoff at the Democracy center to chill participation in our rally. And he federalized 4,000 National Guard and sent 700 active duty Marines, not overseas, but to the second largest city in America. And there's still our federalized Guard still there. Wake up to what is going on in this country. It is code red. And I'm sure a lot of you are fine with it because a lot of people have figured it out. They know the game. State capitalism, crony capitalism, the great grift. A lot of you are doing extraordinarily well. But one of the things I'm trying to do better is express my concern, highlight that with more conviction and clarity, and also reinforce that we're about to walk into the 250th anniversary of the best of Greek democracy in the Roman Republic, this historic values of our founding fathers in 2026. And it's all on the line. And so I'm standing on that line and we're trying to push back.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Let me ask you this.

[Gavin Newsom]

And I think we're making progress.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I had asked readers of Dealbook if they had questions for you. And here's a good one that came in that actually matches the conversation I think you were just having. And this relates to Prop 50. This question came in and said, how is California's gerrymandering exercise with the full support of the governor, anything but a slippery slope? Aren't there other solutions?

[Gavin Newsom]

Are there? We can hold hands, have a candlelight visual.

I mean, that's the damn Democratic Party. That goes to your.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

But I assume you're against gerrymandering.

[Gavin Newsom]

Not only am I against it, I was one of its champions for independent redistricting. And that's why I required in this ballot initiative that we affirm our desire to have national independent redistricting. And by the way, the voters overwhelmingly supported that. But a temporary response to an emergency of Donald Trump's making was appropriate. We maintained the independent Redistricting commission. We still maintain the independent districts for everything but three elections for Congress, and then it reverts back to its original form. Final point. These were the first maps in US History to go on the ballot. Talk about transparency, talk about democracy. Compare that to the maps that were drafted and are currently being drafted in Mar a Lago up there in Indiana and Missouri and North Carolina, and will be done quite literally in Mar a Lago when Desantis gets his arms around them. That's the contrast. And again, we had to fight fire with fire. It's not one hand tied behind our back. We're trying to win an argument. These guys are consolidating.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Let me ask you about fire.

[Gavin Newsom]

That's the difference.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Let me ask you about fire with fire. You have taken to trolling Trump and really using his words. I want to just read you. This is a post on November 28th from you. From me, happy holidays to everyone except the seriously demented piggy who turned the Oval Office into a revolving door for grifters and crooks. You go on to say this clown slapped tariffs, attacks on the working man. You go on to say that his dimwit avengers, including Cash Money Patel, Dum Dum, Pete Cosplay, Christie, and you go on and on and on. And my question to you is about this rhetoric, because you have been very critical of the way the president has spoken, the rhetoric of this president, and here you are using the exact same rhetoric.

[Gavin Newsom]

I need to wake everybody up. This is normalization of deviancy. And it was becoming socialized, normalized. You got Pravda, the propaganda networks out there, the primetime lineup at Fox just going on and on and on. Call someone the R word or piggy. And somehow it's just Trump being Trump. There's nothing normal about this. He's a man child. It's unbecoming to the President of the United States. He's dressed up as the Pope. He's acting like he's Superman. This is not normal. He's putting his face on Mount Rushmore. He sends these all tweet caps. These are verbatim what he's doing. I tried to put a mirror up to what the hell is going on in this country. This is not normal behavior. And you know what? I appreciate that.

And it's working in this respect. You know what was most offended? I think there were 11 to 15 Fox News pieces on this. Disgusted. They were Newsom's wife who's here. Thank you. Jen said she should wash his mouth out with soap. Saying about me for these tweets without any situational awareness, they haven't said a damn word about the President of the United States. So, look, I think you had Mr. Beast on. I love that. He was just on. He's all about communication. He's all about attention. Trump is an exceptionally gifted communicator. Terrible order. Exceptionally gifted communicator. And repetition matters. And what I'm trying to parrot is an iterative style. Put that mirror up, but also test some theories. And I. Forgive me, I think it's working a little bit. And not all of these. There's a kill switch for me. Not everyone I work well, I was.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Going to say, what is the kill switch?

[Gavin Newsom]

Not all of them. I sometimes. Yeah, I don't know what happened.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

You're selling. You said coming soon. You're selling new knee pads for all CEOs, universities, and GOP bending the knee to Donald Trump, and you're actually selling these knee pads.

[Gavin Newsom]

We.

Raised hundreds of thousands of dollars, by the way.

They're available today.

By the way. Some of you may need to buy them in bulk.

But we have the new Trump signature series knee pads on my Patriot site, which is an actual real site. I encourage you, if you're bored, Google it right now. And they were sold out. Just like our universities were selling out, just like our law firms were selling out. Just like a lot of CEOs, we're selling out. Selling out this country, our future, our republic, selling out my kids, your grandkids. So there's method to it. And I mean, it breaks my heart to see these law firms sell out like this. Breaks my heart to see. I mean, President Xi is out there going, my gosh, this Trump's flattery. I mean, 10% of Intel, 15% in AMD, 15% in Nvidia. MP materials, golden shares at US Steel. What the hell happened to free enterprise? A healthy horse pulling a sturdy wagon. What's going on with this country? What's going on with the country? The President of the United States shows up, but the one group that shows up before him are members of his family. To make sure they get the golf course approved, to use the tariffs as leverage to get personal deals done. Towers. Three or four different countries. What is the one thing it has in common? All his trips overseas, this meme coin, the crypto scam world lived apartments on a daily basis, it seems. This is not America. It's not the America I grew up in. It's not the America I want my kids growing up in. So we gotta call this out. And I know it's painful for some cause to be called out and I don't mean to be a. I don't want to be this guy but it disgusts me. And so I thought the knee pads where appropriate.

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[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

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[Dr. Jesse Mills]

Hey there Dr. Jesse Mills. Here I'm the director of the men's clinic at UCLA Health, and I want to tell you about my new podcast called the Mailroom.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

And I'm Jordan, the show's producer. And like a lot of guys, I haven't been to the doctor in many years. I'll be asking the questions we probably should be asking but aren't, because guys.

[Dr. Jesse Mills]

Usually don't go to the doctor unless a piece of their face is hanging off or they've broken a bone.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Depends which bone.

[Dr. Jesse Mills]

Well, that's true. Every week, we're breaking down the unique world of men's health, from testosterone and fitness to diets and fertility and things that happen in the bedroom.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

You mean sleep?

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah, something like that.

[Dr. Jesse Mills]

Jordan. We'll talk science without the jargon and get you real answers to the stuff you actually wonder about.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

It's going to be fun, whether you're 2797 or somewhere in between.

[Dr. Jesse Mills]

Men's Health is about more than six packs in supplements. It's about energy, confidence, and connection. We don't just want you to live longer, we want you to live better. So check out the mailroom on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.

[Kev OnStage]

What up, y'?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

All?

[Kev OnStage]

It's your boy, Kev onstage. I wanna tell you about my new podcast called Not My Best Moment, where I talk to artists, athletes, entertainers, creators, friends, people I admire who had massive success about their massive failures. What did they mess up on? What is their heartbreak, and what did they learn from it?

[Gavin Newsom]

I got judged horribly.

[Kev OnStage]

The judges were like, you're trash. I don't know how you got on the show.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Boo.

[Gavin Newsom]

Somebody had tomatoes.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

No, I'm kidding.

[Kev OnStage]

But if they had tomatoes, they would.

[Gavin Newsom]

Have thrown the tomatoes.

[Kev OnStage]

Let's be honest. We've all had those moments we'd rather forget. We bumped our head, we made a mistake, the deal fell through, we're embarrassed, we failed. But this podcast is about that and how we made it through.

[Gavin Newsom]

So when they sat me down, they.

[Kev OnStage]

Were kind of like.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

We got into the small talk and.

They were just like, so, what do you got? What ideas?

[Kev OnStage]

And I was like, oh, no. What? Check out not my best moment with me, Kev, on Stage on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Let me ask you a related question. President Trump, on his website, selling hats that say 2028 on them, do you believe that he has any ambition to be the president beyond 2028?

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, ambition, yes, but I think he recognizes time of life is catching up with him, even though he can't remember exactly why he went in for an mri.

And so I think his regime will be measured in years, not decades. God forbid he was 10, 20 years younger. That would, I don't believe, be the case. I take Steve Bannon quite literally. I take him at his word on this, by the way, I had Steve on my podcast. I was in the Oval Office, incidentally, just as an aside, with President Trump a few months ago, I think it was one of the first Democrats down with him almost 90 minutes. And one of the things, I'm sitting there at the Resolute, he turns, he says, hey, who's that behind you? I said, I thought it was. Someone walked in. It was a beautiful oil painting of fdr. And I literally looked, and I went, oh, God, here we go. I said, three terms. He goes, no. What about four? He's trolling everybody. But he's also bringing world leaders in to give them the 2028 hat. Heck, this is how serious he was about avoiding the government shutdown, that he not only canceled the meetings with Jeffries and Schumer, felt pressure to get the meeting back on. And what did he do? He didn't invite the press in. He just had a photo with the 2028 hat to troll them on the desk. So I take him more seriously than most. But for me, what I worry about again, is his ability to manipulate the 2028 election.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Even 2028 election.

[Gavin Newsom]

2028, even though he's not on the ballot.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Okay.

[Gavin Newsom]

That's why it's so important that we win the House of Representatives in 2026. It is foundational.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

What do you think he's going to do?

[Gavin Newsom]

What is. What is he going to do? Pay attention. We've seen him. He's put America in reverse. He wants us to bring us back to pre1960s world. We've seen it across the spectrum, and that's not atypical. Republicans, broadly, have been supportive of that agenda, but he's doing it with more ferocity and voting rights, civil rights, LGBTQ rights, women's rights and the like. But when it comes to the issues of voter id, when it comes to the issues of voter integrity, when it comes to the issues of masked men being in and around polling places, when it comes to the issue, as he's doing in January, quick response teams. Did you pay attention to this? He announced quick response teams and in every state in the United States of America so that he can federalize the National Guard. Think about that as we come to the elections in 2026. It's a series of things. It's not one thing he's doing, getting rid of vote by mail. It's a series of things that concern me. And that stacking creates a lot of stress from my perspective.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Let me ask you a different question, which is for a very long time, people specifically actually in Silicon Valley were very supportive of you, and they were very supportive of Democrats and they were very supportive of California. And there has been a big move afoot as you know, out of the state. Either out of the state or at least their politics have shifted markedly. So you may have Sam Altman or Mark Zuckerberg in your state, but effectively they are also at the state dinner with this president. What do you think has happened here?

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, they all moved back into the state. I mean, I live in a state with 32 of the top 50 market cap AI companies. I mean, in the Bay Area, most dominantly, disproportionately, we dominate in fusion, quantum, we dominate in robotics, we dominate in space, we dominate in all these future technologies, including R and D and nuclear, of course. We have 18% of the world's R and D in my state. Germany about 21%, China 22%. We're 18% of the world's R and D. You saw Tesla move their world R and D headquarters into Silicon Valley. HP Enterprises old headquarters.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

This is after, this is after Elon.

[Gavin Newsom]

Had left originally, but all he left with was a bag of cash so he can avoid capital gains. I mean, he continued to grow Tesla. In fact, you can go and watch the press conference we had a few months later when he brought the R and D headquarters back where he made the case. We've added 10,000 jobs from Tesla since we quote, unquote, moved the company.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

So what is your relationship, by the way? What's your relationship like with these people now? And how do you keep them in your state? And yet they're on the other side of your own politics.

[Gavin Newsom]

They are and they aren't.

It's very situational with a lot of these guys. A lot of the folks that well described move towards Trump. Sort of the Sacks types. Watch that space.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

You say watch that. What do you mean?

[Gavin Newsom]

New York Times did a masterpiece. It was a masterclass analysis. Talk about just self dealing. Come on. I mean, cryptos are, I mean, all in podcasts, by the way, is, you know, great podcast, not a knock. But his, you know, one of his co hosts is in business with Trump Jr. Who's in business with Laura Ingram on a new SPAC. They go so well, none of this is normal. They announced the big AI deal at the all in podcast.

This is a different level of grif than we've ever experienced in our lifetime. And I say this about.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Let me ask you one question.

[Gavin Newsom]

Can I say this? Those guys were already on the spectrum, libertarian spectrum already. A lot of these guys were already there. Most of the other folks. I think it's a little bit more. I don't want to say the word transactional, but as fiduciaries, I guess I'll be kind.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Okay, let me ask you.

[Gavin Newsom]

They are doing what they feel they need to do. So I don't see it as a big shift, as perhaps others do. And that's on the basis of very close relationships, as you suggest, going back decades.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Let me ask you a question, because you mentioned David Sacks. The New York Times had a big piece about David Sacks. A lot of folks in the Valley thought that David Sacks is doing a great thing by being in this role. And this is one of these roles. I'm just going to give you the position. I'm curious what your take is. The argument is that if you're going to have experts in these fields, invariably there are going to be some kinds of conflicts. Do you think it's been done better before? I ask because there are people who go back and look at people who were Democrats, by the way, a lot of people in Google Land and lots of other parts of Silicon Valley that were very close to the Obama administration years ago and people had said that they were too close. And I don't know if you think that that's a fair question or you think that they're even in the same league.

[Gavin Newsom]

I'm not going to look if you're suggesting that.

I just want to be careful about this notion of sort of equivalency. There's nothing equivalent about what's going on in the United States right now as it relates to crony capitalism and self dealing, period, full stop. And we can get into the $230 million demand on the DOJ. We can get into the $400 million Qatari jet that includes a billion dollars of your money, where we cut food stamps to pay for a billion dollars to retrofit that $400 million plan. We can get to the cryptos and the min coins. We can get to the resorts and the towers and the golf courses. We can get into the children of all of these guys from, I mean from Witkoff, 32 year old Aizar who had no experience and rather crypto czar in his own right. The $2 billion, the Binance, pardon, all this, this is a different level. If you want to compare that to someone who resigns or takes a leave of absence from Google to work on open source for the Biden administration or the Obama administration, I think that's not the same thing. What I'm arguing for, David's a very bright guy, I'm not naive about that. But what the New York Times highlighted was the conflicts at a scale. He hasn't done a blind trust, he hasn't pulled away from all of these investments. And I just think there needs to be levels of ethics that are demanded of these leaders. I want that expertise. I'm with you on that. That said, there's so much self dealing and that entire ecosystem has benefited from it, California has benefited from it. But I do not think it's healthy for capitalism and I do not think it's healthy for free enterprise.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Let me ask you a question about your own prospects outside of California. California, like New York, is not always the most beloved state by the rest of the country. And they look at some of these states as aberrations or on the ends, they physically are on the ends of the country. And I wonder, when you look at your own prospects, I think it's clear that your ability to communicate is one of your great attributes. But there's a lot of people who would look and California and they look at the debt in California, they look at some of the issues that have taken place with, you know, the homeless, which you know about the costs, homeless, Prop 47, housing costs and the like and, and companies and others leaving the state and they look and go, you know what if we're going to have a guy managing the country, California is not the example we want to follow.

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, I mean we're one from the sixth largest economy to the fourth largest economy, $4.1 trillion a year. We have more Fortune 500 companies than we've ever had in the last two decades. Went from 48 to now or 49 now to 58 Fortune 500 companies. You brought up Sam Altman a moment ago. The largest market cap private company in world history. He decided just a few weeks ago where to headquarter it in the state of California. More scientists, engineers, more Nobel laureates, venture capital. Over $106 billion this year, 68% of that invested back into the state of California. Finest system of higher education in the world. A conveyor belt for talent like no other. I mentioned the R and D investments. The future happens in my state first, where America's coming to traction. That said, I also will reinforce the obvious. We're also the dominant manufacturing hub in the United states of America. $405.6 billion, 13.9% of the U.S. manufacturing. Compare that to Ron DeSantis, 2.8% in Florida. We're the dominant ag state. $62.1 billion. Forestry, hunting jobs. Ag jobs. You talk about farmers and ranchers. You're talking about my home state of California. The state of California has seen population increase. We had a treasury secretary here who needs to actually get some facts. You challenged them on some California saw a population increased Last year of 108,000, 105,000 the prior year, 49,000 the prior year. Before that. You got to update your talking points. There's California Derangement Syndrome. It really is, and I'm pretty proud of it. And I'm also proud of the fact that in the spirit of New York Times and the Abundance agenda and the good work that Ezra's doing, we've never tackled our housing crisis more aggressively than we tackled it this last year. We've never tackled our homeless and mental health crisis more than we have in the last few years. 0.45% increase, less than 1% in unsheltered homelessness. 40 other states saw significantly higher increases in homeless. I'm not happy about that. But we're finally making progress. So in many ways I think there's a story to tell. And I'm not arguing for my own case, but it's a story that I think a lot of Californians are proud to tell.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I wanted to go back to your you've mentioned grift a couple of times and corporate leaders doing things to placate what you think of as this administration. You mentioned law firms and others. I talked to Secretary Scott Besson earlier this morning. We talked about David Ellison in Paramount. It's a deal, by the way, that would likely happen in your state, depending on what ultimately happens. I don't know if you want to go see rush hour four or not. That's on your I liked 1, 2 and 3.

[Gavin Newsom]

So I'm a Chris Tucker fan. So.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

But my question to you is do you blame the businesses for trying to curry the favor, or do you blame the administration or the other political party for incentivizing or creating this opportunity? If you think that's the the case.

[Gavin Newsom]

Look, I think Trump has dialed it up. You got, you got to kiss the ring. The fealty to the Dear Leader. It's the likes of which we've never seen. This guy sees himself as a kid.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

But if you were, if you were Tim Cook, and I'm serious, if you were Tim Cook under the circumstance, and he's in your state, under the circumstances he is in, which is. Well, that's. He manufactures a lot of stuff in China and he was worried about the tariffs.

[Gavin Newsom]

He was able to make a phone call that no small business in my state could have made. I mean, how about my farmers and ranchers in California? How about all these small, medium sized businesses that can't pick up the phone and get an exemption on their tariffs? So, yeah, it breaks my heart a little bit. That's a version of crony capitalism. That is by definition crony capitalism. It is the definition of it. But what is he. Back to the generous analysis. That's called being a fiduciary. Doing what he needs to do on behalf of his shareholders. That's his job. So do I begrudge that? Yes. But do I begrudge him? Not as much. But what I do begrudge is the tone and tenor that this administration has set and the expectations they've set that if you don't do the bidding, you don't write the check, you don't get the contract. Directing contracts, changing procurement, sole source on this, sole source, that this is a different level than we've ever seen in the past. Some would argue, okay, it's just more transparent bs. It's at a different scale than we've seen in the past.

And for those that are complicit and participatory in that beyond their fiduciary responsibility, that's where I have a real problem.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

We talked to Dario Modi today, and we also talked to Mary Barra. And you're going to see a connection between the two in just a moment. One of the things that's fascinating in the AI space is that there are states, including California, that would like to regulate, that have artificial intelligence, as you know. And for a very long time, California regulated fuel standards, efficiency standards. You see how we're connecting these two?

[Gavin Newsom]

Okay, that's why you're interviewing me.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

And here we are. And it's interesting. I think if you're the governor of the state, you might say to yourself, states rights. We want to do this this way. If you become the President of the United States.

Do you want to do it federally?

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, there was a.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

And what's the better approach?

[Gavin Newsom]

There was a President of the United States by The name of Ronald Reagan, whose approach was in 1967 to advance an effort to regulate tailpipe emissions, created the California Air Resources Board. It was codified by the Clean air Act in 1970 by Republican Richard Nixon. Did so in response to the smog crisis in Los Angeles. Businesses leaving, people leaving, they couldn't do business in my home state. And so they began the modern environmental movement, particularly as it relates to issues of emissions. What Mary did, with respect, I say this because I've worked with her in the past. She worked behind our back to work with Republicans in Congress and Trump to gut that leadership going back to Ronald Reagan through a process called CRA with Senator Thune. And she lied about it. She worked behind our back to gut that. Today she or her representatives are back in the Oval Office today celebrating the fact they're going to increase costs for fuel and increase subsidies for polluters by rolling back Joe Biden's fuel efficiency standards celebrated by Big Oil that just got $18 billion in subsidies. Big Oil and gas in the big beautiful bill that will put us further behind our number one competitor China in terms of a global market. I am not happy about that as a Californian, but if someone just came back from Belem, came back from COP and everywhere you went there was a byd. I mean these guys are flooding the zone. China understands the opportunity. It's about markets and it's about supply chains and it's about influence they're doing in Latin America, South America, increasingly in Europe and we are doubling down on stupid here in the United States. 70% of the EV market is coming out of China now. They're 3x the manufacturing of automobiles that we are in the United States of America, about 31/million vehicles to our 10. And it's the tech stack where they're dominating. It's batteries, it's software, it's the future, it's mobility. And so yeah, I'm a little ticked off that these guys want to pave over the old cow path as opposed to transform the industry and the technology and lower costs for consumers and not have the socialized cost of pollution and lousy health as a byproduct of it.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

We've only got a minute and I have a final question and it's from a longtime Dealbook reader who asked this. If you are not the Democrats presidential nominee, why is so much focus this in 2028? Who does he want to be the nominee assuming they can win the election?

[Gavin Newsom]

Someone who's a hard headed pragmatist. Someone that understands we all need to be loved and all need to love, meaning someone who's a repair of the breach. You know, spirit of father, cause, Isaiah. Someone needs to be a repair of the breach. We're polarized and traumatized. This is exhausting. The guy literally calling people the R word. Piggy. It's just not. This is. We're better than this. The reason I started my podcast and my first guest was Charlie Kirk.

To show respect. People. I disagree with Bannon, who I had on Newt Gingrich, who led my recall campaign. Divorce is not an option. We have to define the terms of our future. And. And so this notion of all being better off, we're all better off, is the kind of attributes that I pray that our nominee.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

There's not a name. You think Kamala Harris could do it again? There's literally Bashir, Wes Moore, all of them.

[Gavin Newsom]

They're all. Yeah. And there'll be the surprise. Mr. Beast may run. You know, we'll see. What's the moment? I think right now, the obstacle is the way in sort of stoic frame. The impediment to action becomes the action. Trump is so dominant situationally. Getting back to 2026. I know we all want to paint that positive alternative beyond Trump, and everybody's right to have that conversation.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Is that J.D. vance, by the way, in your mind, too?

[Gavin Newsom]

I'm not a huge fan of his.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

No, no. I'm saying, is J.D. vance the person you think that you'd be running against?

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, I think Trump's not sure Trump will determine that. I mean, Trump, Trump, he doesn't care if he's the heel or the hero. He cares that he's the star and he's not going to walk away. He's going to rig that nomination. And you heard him yesterday, even in the Oval Office or in the Academy meeting, he was saying, well, is it Rubio? Is it. Vance is advanced Rubio. I mean, he's already playing around with this, but he'll make that determination, ultimately, an extension again of his third term. If because of time of life, he can't extend it and the Supreme Court can't extend it for him.

What? You got one more?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I got one more. I got to find.

[Gavin Newsom]

No, it's always the last question that gets.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

No, it's actually not that. It's not that hard. The question is, if you are not the governor and you're not the presidential candidate, what do you actually want to do?

[Gavin Newsom]

Oh, my God, look at me. I'm. Physiologically, I'm changing. I'VE got my arms crossed. Well, remember, people don't know this about me. They don't know much about me. It is remarkable what's perceived versus reality. And God forbid I sound like a politician, I actually have a book coming out. Young man in a hurry, I know. Again, speaking of purchasing, you can buy it in bulk, it'll be out in February. But to sort of Demystify all this. February 23rd.

The.

But I say that to make this point.

That.

I'm a small business guy. I started right out of college, pen to paper, one part time employee, Pat Kelly, opened a little business with literally $175,000, 13 investors. I built that, restaurants, hotels, wineries. We've got about 1,000 employees, 23 little businesses. I say that not to impress any of you, but to impress upon you my passion for entrepreneurialism, my passion for risk taking, free enterprise. And so I'm still that guy. So for me, you answer that question. That's my backup plan. That's my default. But I'm also deeply committed to public service and deeply committed however that manifests, even if it's not an elected office. And I'll close with a Justice Brandeis quote. Why not? When in doubt, Justice Brandeis, he said, in a democracy, the most important office is not governor, mayor, president. In a democracy, the most important office is office of citizen. So it's in that spirit of citizenship that I look forward to the future as well.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Governor Newsom, thank you very, very much. Thank you very, very much. Really appreciate it.

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.