← This is Gavin Newsom
Loading summary
Transcript206 lines
- [00:00]
Khloe Kardashian
You're listening to an iHeart podcast.
- [00:06]
Dutch Vet
Time is precious and so are our pets. So time with our pets is extra precious. That's why we started Dutch. Dutch provides 24. 7 access to licensed vets with unlimited virtual visits and follow ups for up to five pets. You can message a vet at any time and schedule a video visit the same day. Our vets can even prescribe medication for many ailments and shipping is always free. With Dutch, you'll get more time with your pets and year round peace of mind when it comes comes to their vet care.
- [00:35]
Khloe Kardashian
I found out I was related to the guy that I was dating. I don't feel emotions correctly. I collect my roommate toenails and fingernails.
- [00:43]
Therapy Gecko
Those were some callers from my call in podcast Therapy Gecko. It's a show where I take phone calls from anonymous strangers as a fake gecko therapist and try to learn a little bit about their lives. I know that's a weird concept, but I promise it's very interesting. Check it out for yourself by searching for Therapy gecko on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:08]
Jay Shetty
Hey, I'm Jay Shetty and I'm the host of the On Purpose podcast and I'm excited for my next episode with Khloe Kardashian.
- [01:16]
Khloe Kardashian
God, I've been through so many things that at this point I would rather not feel than feel because feeling is too much for me to handle. I am Khloe Kardashian. Khloe Kardashian, everybody. Khloe Kardashian. No one understands how it's. I'm not just a TV show list.
- [01:31]
Jay Shetty
Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:38]
Anna Sinfield
The number one hit podcast, the Girlfriends is back with something new, the Girlfriends Spotlight, where each week you'll hear women share their stories of triumph over adversity. You'll meet June, who founded an all female rock band in the 1960s.
- [01:53]
Khloe Kardashian
I might as well have said we're.
- [01:55]
Jay Shetty
Gonna walk on the moon.
- [01:57]
Anna Sinfield
But she showed them who's boss.
- [01:58]
Khloe Kardashian
They would rush up and say, not bad for chicks.
- [02:03]
Anna Sinfield
Come and join our girl gang. Listen to the Girlfriend Spotlight on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [02:15]
Jackson Katz
What happens when we come face to face with death?
- [02:18]
Dutch Vet
My truck was blown up by a.
- [02:20]
Khloe Kardashian
20 pound anti tank mine.
- [02:21]
Anna Sinfield
My parachute did not deploy.
- [02:23]
Therapy Gecko
I was kidnapped by a drug cartel.
- [02:26]
Jackson Katz
When we step beyond the edge of.
- [02:27]
Khloe Kardashian
What we know, I clinically died, the heart stopped beating, which I was dead for 11.5 minutes.
- [02:33]
Therapy Gecko
In return, it's a miracle I was brought back.
- [02:35]
Khloe Kardashian
Alive Again, a podcast about the strength.
- [02:38]
Jackson Katz
Of the human spirit. Listen to alive again starting May 13th.
- [02:41]
Khloe Kardashian
On the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
- [02:49]
Jackson Katz
When it comes to the issue of race and gender, when it comes to the issue of masculinity, there are few people that hold more cred on this subject matter. And my next guest, this is Gavin Newsom. And this is Jackson Katz. You've got a new book coming out at least overseas, and we'll see what comes out here. It's called Every man. But I mean, that's interesting. Obama, Renegades and Springsteen. So tell me a little bit more about that.
- [03:18]
Khloe Kardashian
Well, yeah, my book was just published in the UK in February, but it's coming out in September in the United States. The American version, it's called Everyman, Why violence against women is a men's issue and how you can make a difference.
- [03:29]
Jackson Katz
And Jack, just so for people that don't know you, you've been at this issue, been talking about the issue of intersection between gender, race, violence for decades and decades. I mean, you've been in this space talking about the issues of masculinity, what's happening in young men and the relationship between the sexes for 25 plus years, right?
- [03:51]
Khloe Kardashian
Oh, yeah, since I was a college student really, which is a long time ago.
- [03:54]
Jackson Katz
And what originally inspired all of this and ultimately what inspired this book all these decades later? Building on what the work you've been doing?
- [04:03]
Khloe Kardashian
Well, you know, as a young guy and I was a big athlete in high school. I was an all star football player and I came from a blue collar family. My stepfather was a truck driver and an army veteran of World War II. My father was a medic in Germany and France in World War II. I came from a family where, well, you know, it was a blue collar family and, and, and, and yet education was a big emphasis. And, and when I was in college, I started taking courses in subjects that related to, you know, gender and race and other things. And I was learning, I thought I was smart when I was a young guy, but I realized how little I knew, especially about how other people lived because I, you know, I came from a kind of a white suburban background just north of Boston. And when I started taking classes on gender related topics and started hearing about women's experiences of violence and I started seeing women organizing around the fear that they have so often Especially at night, because that was the beginning of the take back the night movement where women were marching to say, we have the right to walk outside at night. And I remember thinking, when I saw these women sort of organizing for better lighting on campus, I remember thinking, not that these women hated men, but that they felt like they had the right to walk across campus. And I felt like that was what leadership looked like. I was inspired by it. I was a young student journalist at the time, and I was inspired by women standing up and speaking up for themselves, just as I was inspired by African Americans and what we used to call, you know, in the. In the gay. What used to be called the gay rights movement, which is now the lgbtq.
- [05:37]
Jackson Katz
And just put this in context of what year roughly would we be talking about?
- [05:41]
Khloe Kardashian
Roughly around 1980. 80.
- [05:42]
Jackson Katz
Okay, got it.
- [05:43]
Khloe Kardashian
So it's like, I'm a little long in the tooth, but I've been doing this work. So since I started speaking out then, and because I had this background in traditional male culture as an athlete and pretty successful, I knew that I had a platform. I knew that people were interested when I started saying, hey, sexual assault and domestic violence, this is wrong, guys. This is like, wrong. And women should be able to. Shouldn't have to worry constantly about their personal safety. And how would you feel if you were a woman and had to live like, yeah, I remember thinking, why aren't more men saying these things? Why aren't more men speaking out? Why is it always, you know, women having to organize and speak out and push for, you know, reforms of the laws? Why aren't men doing this? And I know most men are not abusive, but yet most men don't speak out. And so because I knew I had a platform, I started speaking out. And honestly, I'm doing today, Governor, what I started doing as a 19 year old. I always say my hair is a lot shorter, not by choice, and I have nicer clothes than I did when I was a 19 year old guy. But it's the same message. And my book, Every man why Violence Against Women Is a Men's Issue is what I've been saying for 40 years. It's just that because of my work and other people's work and the way the culture moves, there's an energy now, there's a receptivity to talking about this, thinking about this, with the exception of the backsliding that we're doing in our country right now, which is a really dramatic series of steps backwards. And, you know, we can talk about that as well.
- [07:16]
Jackson Katz
So What? I mean, when you, when you look back 40 years, I mean, did you really feel like you were the lone voice back then? I mean, were there, was there any organized movement or recognition or was there any political leadership with men in this space to call out that violence against women? Or was it primarily with. Would you describe as the feminist movement that was really organized behind the women's rights in this space? Or at least it was.
- [07:39]
Khloe Kardashian
It was definitely a sort of multiracial, multi ethnic, feminist, women led movement. And there was a tiny number of men. I mean, I was, you know, I was kind of early. An early adapter, as they would say, or adopter. I like when I was 20, I mean, there was not that many men doing this work. And now there are. I mean, there's no question that my work and a lot of other people's work over the last couple of generations has made a difference in terms of normalizing this kind of conversation. But political leadership, very limited. I'm not saying it didn't exist, but it was very limited. And in the public space, it was very unusual to hear men talking about any of this subject matter.
- [08:18]
Jackson Katz
And the fact that you started to say this is a man's issue, I mean, what do you mean by that? And how was that received by women that were expressing themselves and leaders in the feminist movement? Was it well received in that respect? Was it understood when you started talking initially about this being a man's issue?
- [08:38]
Khloe Kardashian
Generally speaking, I would say yes, because what feminist leaders were saying back then, and they say this now, is that the role for men who are really concerned about these matters, which by the way, all men should be. It's not something that should be specific to me or a small number of men yourself, but a lot of the, you know, a lot of the women leaders, including bell hooks, famously the African American, the sadly late African American feminist scholar and writer and activist, would say, which she and others would say that the proper role for men in this work is to educate, organize and politicize other men. It's not to go in and save women or even to work with women. It's to go into male culture in every racial and ethnic community and every. It's a global. These are global problems, not local problems. I mean, they manifest locally, but they're global problems. The proper role for men is to. Is to like, get with their guys, you know what I mean? Like, their friends, their colleagues, their peers. And adult men need to be providing much more overt and explicit leadership to young men. And if you stay in that Lane, in other words, I think that's what women are asking. By the way, it's very similar to what people of color have been saying for white people who are. Whether you call them allies or collaborators. It's like, you don't need white people going to black communities. You need white people organizing white people and speaking out and using the platform of influence that they have within their own sort of, you know, culture or spheres of influence. That's. It's a simple concept. It's not even that complicated.
- [10:08]
Jackson Katz
So you say. I mean, it's. For 40 years you've been at this, and obviously there was, you know, you've had an incredibly successful career and a lot of influence in this space. But you referenced yourself that this is. There seems to be a door that's opening now in this space, but there's also a door closing. And we'll get to that in a minute in terms of some regression. But the door that's opening in terms of what, consciousness in the space. A recognition of the crisis of young men. The political side of this. How do you describe from. Is it a policy framework that you see shifting or a political framework that's shifting?
- [10:42]
Khloe Kardashian
It's both. I would say. There's a shift in consciousness that's been happening over the last couple of generations. Really. It's not a really brand new thing. I mean, whole generations of men and young men have grown up with feminist mothers, with women in the workplace as equals, with girls and women sitting next to them in school in the professional world. I mean, my parents generation didn't have those experiences. It was much more sex segregated, and women were excluded from mainstream sort of competition with men in so many areas. But there's a whole generations of men who have come of age in a way that it's been normalized, you know, and a lot of men have much more. More likely to have female friends and. And. And colleagues and take that as just obvious as opposed to something that some radical new, you know, development that they have to adjust to. But at the same time, I think there's a whole lot of men who have done very little speaking out about men's violence against women. And a lot of men get really uncomfortable about this subject. And I think a lot of men, including powerful men, who are really incredibly articulate about a whole range of subjects, but when it comes to this subject, they are like, oh, my God, I don't want to go near this, or I don't know exactly what to say, or they become inarticulate. And so what Ends up happening for a lot of men, including powerful men. I'm serious. What they'll do is they'll either remain silent because they don't want to screw it up, or they're just so uncomfortable, or they'll defer to women and women's leadership. And I think on one level, fine, we need to, you know, uplift women's leadership. But in a sense, that's not fair. It's not. What's not why. Why is it women's responsibility? It should be men's. That's. That's a way of hoisting off, you know, putting onto women what should be, what men should be carrying, especially those of us who have, you know, cultural, political, economic, you know, power and influence. And so I think one of the big challenges of our time is getting more men who are already there in the sense that we're uncomfortable with other men's abusive behavior. We don't like it, we know it when we see it, but we don't either know what to say or we feel uncomfortable around it and don't know what to do. And so we retreat. And I think what we need to do is not that we have to, quote, unquote, convert the men who are the most deeply misogynist and angry at women, it's that we have to talk to men. I mean, that would be a good thing, but I mean, that's not where my. I spend my time. I spend my time with men who are. Already know that, who already know that gender justice, gender equality, reducing gender based violence are important things, but they don't really know how or what to do about it. My goal is to empower them and to give them both conceptually and practically, the tools to be better leaders and to be better partners, be better, you know, fathers, uncles, you know, teachers, coaches, youth workers, you know, religious leaders. There's so many men who are good men in positions of influence, especially with young people who could be doing so much more than they're doing right now.
- [13:44]
Jackson Katz
Contextualize the issue for folks and just sort of, you know, bring us in a little bit on, you know, what are the trend lines we've seen in the last few decades? I mean, when you started this work, was sort of, Was that an apex of, of of the anxiety in this space? Was it, Was there just little data, a little research in this space? Are we seeing a diminution and violence perpetrated against or against women? Are we seeing a return to a little more misogyny? And has it been impacted by culture, social Media has been impacted by, even by our politics today, all of that.
- [14:24]
Khloe Kardashian
I think you touched on a whole bunch of really important developments. It's a complicated thing, like social change itself is really complicated. So we're making all kinds of forward progress. There's reforms in the laws, there's a level of consciousness that seeps through, whether it's through the education system, through media. There's so many powerful and empowered women that are vocal and thoughtful around this subject matter. To a lesser extent, men. But at the same time, yes, we have had an enormous backlash against some of this progress. And I think, honestly, I think right wing populism in the United States and in Europe and other parts of the world, but a big part of it that doesn't get enough sort of discussion is that it's not just resistance to racial integration and immigration and the increasing sort of racial and ethnic heterogeneity of some of these societies that had previously been pretty white. That's a part of it, I'm saying. I mean, part of it clearly is right wing populism feeds on that energy that. That sort of racial grievance. But I think it's also a lot of men who are really put off by and decentered by feminism and by the LGBTQ revolution, which de centers sort of heteronormative heterosexual men in particular. And I think that has to be part of the conversation. I mean, Trumpism, for example, to me, Trumpism is so much of that is about not just white, but backlash, but white male backlash against forward progress by women, basically. And this is tricky stuff because. Can I also say, I also think it's really important that I say people like me who have been doing the work that I and we have been doing have long made the connection between men's violence against women, men's violence against other men, and men's violence against themselves. Because, you know, suicide is violence turned inward. So the idea that sometimes men will say, well, you talk about violence against women. Yeah, okay, what about violence against men? You know, you'll hear this, and I write about this in my book, of course, because this is so predictable. It's like, well, I thought about that. Of course, we've all thought about. We all understand this. My friend Michael Kaufman, who's the co founder of the White Ribbon Campaign, which is the largest global movement of men working to end men's violence against women. It's in like 60 something countries. And it's a great. It was started after the Montreal massacre in 1989, where a man, a 25 year old man lined up 14 women in the Institute of Technology and murdered them in cold blood. This is in 1989. And he left a suicide note that said feminist, you know, blaming feminists for having ruined his life and he was going to take revenge. Well, a group of men created the White Ribbon campaign, which is this big public display two years later where a man, you know, at the end of November every year, men wear white ribbons to say that they're not going to condone men's violence against women. Be silent in the face of it. Michael Kaufman wrote this essay in 1987 where he connected men's violence against women to men's violence against other men to men's violence against themselves. Because they're all connected. And so no thoughtful person in the 21st century who's looking at men's violence against women fails to see that all kinds of other things in men's lives are also connected. In addition, by the way, look at all the men, I mean, who have women in our lives who have been assaulted by other men. Look at all the men, adult men who have partnered with women who are sexual assault survivors or domestic violence.
- [17:52]
Jackson Katz
And full disclosure, you know. Well, my wife, who's been very vocal about that and what occurred with Harvey.
- [17:59]
Khloe Kardashian
Weinstein, she has been, and she's been an incredible brave leader on this subject. And I love her leadership on this and her bravery and, and I love working with her on these matters. Absolutely. But I'm saying there's so many of us which is, I don't know what your point. Yes, I don't know any man who doesn't have women in his life.
- [18:16]
Jackson Katz
I imagine you go to audiences all the time and just ask people to.
- [18:18]
Khloe Kardashian
Raise their hand and, or, or, or yes, or. Just in terms of my social networks and the people that I know, I mean I'm, I'm surprised if I meet a man who doesn't have women in his life who have been assaulted by other men. It's, it's not some esoteric subject matter that affects some small group.
- [18:35]
Jackson Katz
Is it getting worse? Is it getting better?
- [18:39]
Khloe Kardashian
Again, it's a complicated question. I think we've made enormous progress until the current regime at the federal level. We've made enormous progress. Life in general can be chaotic and if you're in charge of order fulfillment for an E commerce business, you know that it's its own special kind of chaos. But with Shipstation you can count on your day to day remaining calm. With Shipstation you can ship from all your stores with one login automate repetitive tasks and easily find the best shipping rates. It's the fastest, most affordable way to ship products to your customers, with discounts up to 88% off UPS, DHL Express and USPS rates, and up to 90% off FedEx rates. Shipstation grows with your business no matter how big it gets, leading your business into the future with smart features and automations that boost efficiency and save you time. There's a reason that over 130,000 companies use ShipStation to grow their e commerce business, and 98% of companies that use Shipstation for a year become customers for life. That track record speaks for itself. Calm the chaos of order fulfillment with ShipStation, the shipping software that delivers. Go to shipstation.com and use code iheart to sign up for your free trial. That's shipstation.com code iheartra time is precious.
- [20:00]
Dutch Vet
And so are our pets. So time with our pets is extra precious. That's why we started Dutch. Dutch provides 247 access to licensed vets with unlimited virtual visits and follow ups for up to five pets. You can message a vet at any time and schedule a video visit the same day. Our vets can even prescribe medication for many ailments and shipping is always free. With Dutch, you'll get more time with your pets and year round peace of mind when it comes to their vet care.
- [20:28]
Khloe Kardashian
I found out I was related to the guy that I was dating. I don't feel emotions correctly. I am talking to a felon right now and I cannot decide if I like him or not.
- [20:38]
Therapy Gecko
Those were some callers from my call in Podcast Therapy Gecko. It's a show where I take real phone calls from anonymous strangers all over the world as a fake gecko therapist and try to dig into their brains and learn a little bit about their lives. I know that's a weird concept, but I promise it's pretty interesting if you give it a shot. Matter of fact, here's a few more examples of the kinds of calls we get on this show.
- [21:03]
Khloe Kardashian
I live with my boyfriend and I found his piss jar in our apartment. I collect my roommate's toenails and fingernails. I have very overbearing parents. Even at the age of 29, they don't let me move out of their house.
- [21:16]
Therapy Gecko
So if you want an excuse to get out of your own head and see what's going on in someone else's head, search for therapy gecko on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It's the one with the green guy on it.
- [21:31]
Jay Shetty
Hey, it's Jay Shetty and I'm thrilled to announce my first ever On Purpose live tour presented by Chase Sapphire Reserve. That's right. I'm coming live to a city near you. Come and see me. Join me and surprise guests for meaningful and insightful conversations to spark learning, experience growth and build real connections. I'll also guide you through live meditations, share groundbreaking insights and create powerful moments of inspiration designed to deepen connections, spark growth and foster learning. Chase Sapphire Reserve is the gateway to to the most captivating travel destinations and offers exclusive rewards and experiences so you can explore the world your way. Discover more with Chase Sapphire Reserve.
- [22:22]
Khloe Kardashian
The culture's favorite reggaeton historian, wol, public scholar and recording artist. Yes, that means I've done the work on my show that I get the Colagata podcast. I'm not only talking to Flor Mianor, who has the number one reggaeton track in the world right now, I'm also going to be on Pero Speak with music innovators like Rhino, who is known for her media Rogera tracks, and collaborating with artists like Baby. We're also giving you the cultural breakdown straight from the source. Listen to Regatta ColeGata on the iHeartRadio.
- [22:46]
Anna Sinfield
App, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [22:51]
Jackson Katz
I'm curious, I mean, you just, you just put out a report that can really quantify that in terms of research dollars that are rolling back, obviously advocacy in the DI space, which is not, I think so much of what people focus on DEI is around racial issues, but a big part of the movement was a gender issues. And obviously that's, that's under assault. But what else, I mean, is the actual statistics in terms of acts of violence perpetuated against women, is that increasing, decreasing, or is those research dollars drying up and we're going to finally not really have any understanding of that?
- [23:27]
Khloe Kardashian
All of the above, I would say, I would say, I would say we have been making progress. There have been, there has been some data that showed that we have been making progress over the past 25, 30 years in reducing the incidence of domestic and sexual violence. But the flip side is you don't know fully because the vast majority is never reported.
- [23:45]
Jackson Katz
Yeah, it's unreported.
- [23:46]
Khloe Kardashian
And then when you're effective at raising consciousness, when you're effective at providing services to victims and survivors, when you create an environment in an institutional setting, whether it's in a corporation or obviously in a school or some other in the military or at some other setting, if you created an environment where people feel comfortable coming forward to access services or to say that this has happened to them, then they're going to come forward. But if you create an environment where the institution is non responsive, then they're going to remain silent. And so when all these programs are being cut, one of the effects is people won't come forward because they'll be scared or they'll be doing a cost benefit analysis. They'll say, you know what, it's not worth it because why do I want to be re injured by the system not being responsive to my needs and put myself even more in more position of vulnerability? So it's complicated in terms of the back and forth. But also, I do have to say the social media sort of the digital revolution has created a whole new set of challenges. It's also created new possibilities, obviously for connection and for solidarity and community and people connecting with each other from their isolated, you know, silos. There's no question that it's a mixed bag in terms of this subject matter. But the porn culture, the pervasiveness of.
- [25:02]
Jackson Katz
Like deeply misogynist justification of women, objects, ownership.
- [25:07]
Khloe Kardashian
Yes. And the complete sexual degradation of women in the mainstream porn culture that a lot of young people growing up with it are seeing that as normal. They're not, they're not seeing this as like some, oh my God, some radical, you know, you know, new development. They're more like, this is what sex is supposed to look like. It's, it's, some of it's just incredibly abusive and cruel. We're not talking about sexual expression here. We're talking about cruelty and misogyny enshrined in the sexual act. And a lot of young guys, I mean, who think that that's supposed to be, that's normal. What ends up happening in some of these relationships is guys are doing things to women like in heterosexual relationships, non consensually. They're, you know, they're starting to strangle them during, you know, consensual. Non consensual strangulation during consensual sex and thinking that it's normal and, and it's unbelievable. Have you seen Adolescents?
- [25:58]
Jackson Katz
Yeah, I didn't have the guts. I mean, I did back to my wife Jen, she wanted me to see it and I did the opening scene realizing the depth of it. As a father, you know, I've got, I mean, at this age, right. I mean, I've got. We've got four young kids, two boys and, and social media is just encroaching upon their lives and our lives. In a profound way.
- [26:18]
Khloe Kardashian
Well, I appreciate that and I, and I'm going to say this. Spoiler alert. But, but I have to say that the, the main actor, or one of the, one of the main actors, Stephen Graham, the British actor, who is also the, one of the creators and the co writer of the piece. Yeah, brilliant. This guy's brilliant, right? I mean, he talks about this publicly. He talks about it on Jimmy Fallon. So I'm not giving away something that isn't like a mainstream sort of, you know, sort of plot point, but I think one of the most powerful things about the story and one of the reasons why it caught on so much. I mean, caught on like in the way that I think it might be the biggest Netflix success ever. And in the uk, something like half the population has seen the thing. Okay. Anyways, the point is the storyline about the father and his feelings of failure for having failed to protect his son. And he thought he was doing a good job. In other words, this was a heterosexual, heteronormative family, blue collar family, he's a plumber, thought that he was doing what his father didn't do for him.
- [27:16]
Jackson Katz
And just quickly, it's a 13 year.
- [27:19]
Khloe Kardashian
Old kid, 13 year old boy who murders his classmate. And what's in the background of the whole piece, they don't really foreground it, but it's certainly always there is the manosphere, the misogynist manosphere. That's the Andrew Tate world, where this young boy had been in his room, so his parents thought he was safe. He's in his room, he's. They're doing their job. And meanwhile he was immersed in that whole world. The reason why I think that so many people resonate with this film, including men and myself, I'm a father of a son. I have a young son. You know, he's in his 20s, but he's, you know, young, young guy. I think it resonated with a lot of men because of the father's pain and how badly he felt he had let down his son as well as, of course, the girl and her family. Because she was the. Yeah. The primary victim.
- [28:09]
Jackson Katz
No, I mean, it's. Look, I mean, well, it speaks with unpacking all of that. And I want to get back to this manosphere. And I think, I mean, you alluded to it in the context of social media, but even unpacking that a little bit, you've made a point and reinforced a point today in a report you just put out that there is now a big setback in this space. I Mean, there's a very intentional, organized effort now with the current administration, the Trump administration, to vandalize a lot of the progress in this space.
- [28:38]
Khloe Kardashian
Yeah. Yes. And it's disgraceful. Let me just say. I'll just use that word. It's disgraceful and it's harmful to women, but it's also harmful to men. I'll give you an example. The military. I've been working with the military. I created the first gender violence prevention program in the United States Department of Defense, 1997. We started out in the Marine Corps and I and my colleagues have been working in that space for a long time, 27 years or something. And there's all these great people, men and women and, you know, uniform military and DoD civilians. And I was on the US Secretary of Defense Task Force on Domestic Violence in the Military. This is back in 2000. I mean, there have been so many different talented people, including uniform military leaders, who are on board with knowing how important it is to talk about this stuff, to have programming to create. It's for morale purposes, for mission readiness purposes, for all these reasons. Having this kind of educational process within the military space is really important. And it's being all just radically cut back. And it's absolutely disgraceful. And I'm saying this as somebody who's been working in that space and if anybody thinks that it's somehow anti male, this is the subtext of all this. Right. That somehow it's anti male to talk about sexual assault or domestic violence. This is bs. This is bs.
- [29:54]
Jackson Katz
They frame it in the wokeism, just more woke bs.
- [29:58]
Khloe Kardashian
Right? And there and there. And that's. And I'll call BS on that.
- [30:01]
Jackson Katz
Amen.
- [30:01]
Khloe Kardashian
Because there's so many good people, including really powerful men in that space. I mean, I've worked with so many powerful military leaders from the, from the, you know, generals and colonels and admirals at the highest level of, you know, authority. But also like when I started in the Marine, working in the, in the Marine Corps we were working with, it was called a sergeants Major initiative. It was an enlisted leadership initiative. We were training sergeants. These are generally men. And the Marine Corps is about 94% male. So there are women, but it's very much a male dominated space. Let's be clear. Most of the sergeants are in their 20s and they work directly with the young troops, the 18, 19, 20 year old troops. And so providing the leadership training for them for how they can provide leadership to the younger troops. This is to me such a basic thing. It should be not only should it not be rolled back, it should be expanded and deepened. And what's happening is the exact opposite. Under the name of supposedly caring about warrior culture. This is just total bs. And I think under the name of anti wokeism, some of the most forward thinking and sort of useful educational and other consciousness shifting strategies over the last generation are being undermined.
- [31:17]
Jackson Katz
And are you seeing this happening also in sports? Because I know you've been not just working in military, but you've represented a lot of good work in, in many different venues as it relates to athletics as well.
- [31:27]
Khloe Kardashian
Well again, the, the program that I created, the Mentors in Violence Prevention Program MVP was the first 1993 at a place called the center for the Study of Sport in Society. That's an institute that was created by Richard Lapchik, Dr. Richard Lapchik, who was a pioneer of combining sport and civil rights activism. His father was Joe Lapchick, one of the pioneering players and coaches in the NBA. Who was a white guy. Joe Lapchick, he's in the hall of Fame. I mean this is an NBA guy. He ended up as the coach of the New York Knicks and he was the Coach of the St. John's men's basketball team. This is the father. He was also a white guy who was for racial integration, way ahead of the curve. The son was an activist, like a 60s era activist who wasn't an elite athlete, but he was passionate about civil rights and sports. And he created this institute in 1984. And I as a graduate student in Boston came over to his institute pitching the program to train college male student athletes to speak out on these matters. This is in 1993. And my thinking was not that there was a problem in athletics of male athletes assaulting women, although there was such a problem and continues to be. My thinking was where are we gonna find young men who have the status, the self confidence and the platform of influence to break the silence among men and young men? Cause I was thinking lots of guys are uncomfortable with abusive behavior and misogyny around them, but they don't speak up. As I was saying earlier. So we need more men who have already have some confidence. Cuz it takes guts. One of the reasons why guys don't speak up on these matters is because it takes guts, it takes strength, it takes self confidence. And not just 20 year olds, but for 50 year olds. A lot of men get a little, they're anxious and you know what they're anxious about? They're anxious about other men and they're anxious that Other men are going to think that somehow they're soft or weak. And it drives me, I have to say it drives me crazy because I watch people on the right mock and ridicule men who speak out about domestic violence or sexual assault. Joe Rogan, Jordan Peterson, these people mock and ridicule. Andrew Tate is even more exaggerated in how he mocks and ridicules men who stand for gender equality and gender justice, as if we're somehow soft and weak. And I often say, and I so appreciate the opportunity to say this to you here in this setting, if you're a guy, being one of the guys takes nothing special whatsoever. Just going along with your boys. It's like that takes nothing special. What takes something special if you're a guy is turning to your friends and saying, hey, dudes, that's not cool. The way we don't do shit. Like, you know, we don't do stuff like that here. Yeah. Or we don't treat women like that. Or that's not. You're my friend, but the way you're talking to your girlfriend, I'm concerned. That's not cool, dude. That takes so much more strength and guts and self confidence. And yet the guy who says it is a beta, is a wuss, is a soy boy, is a virtue signaler. And so many young guys have grown up in a media environment, a social media environment where, like me, they'll say, I know that's what's going to happen is when people watch this is. It's going to be people. Who's that? Who's that beta? It's just so embarrassing to me because it's like literally the opposite of the truth. Right. And so anyways, that's why I started working in the athletic subculture. And my program was the first large scale program in college athletics. And that was the first program in professional. And I have to say, you know who our first, the first team we work with in professional athletics? New England Patriots. And then we work with the Red Sox. Cause you know, we're in Boston, right? So we had the Patriots and the Red Sox, and at one point the Patriots had won like three out of the first, like five years we were working with them. The Patriots had won the super bowl and the Red Sox had won the World Series for the first time in 86 years right after they started working with us. And so I said, I would always say, as a laugh line, I would say, you know what, something about the Yankees, I'm sure. Well, that's true. Well, that's true. But I but it was even more self serving. I said, I said, you know, I'm not going to claim that the Red Sox and the Patriots working with us was the reason why they won incredible championships, but you can't disprove it either.
- [35:23]
Jackson Katz
Well said.
- [35:26]
Dutch Vet
Time is precious and so are our pets. So time with our pets is extra precious. That's why we started Dutch. Dutch provides 24,7 access to licensed vets with unlimited virtual visits and follow ups for up to five pets. You can message a vet at any time and schedule a video visit the same day. Our vets can even prescribe medication for many ailments and shipping is always free. With Dutch, you'll get more time with your pets and year round peace of mind when it comes to their vet care.
- [35:56]
Khloe Kardashian
I found out I was related to the guy that I was dating. I don't feel emotions correctly. I am talking to a felon right now and I cannot decide if I like him or not.
- [36:05]
Therapy Gecko
Those were some callers from my call in Podcast Therapy Gecko. It's a show where I take real phone calls from anonymous strangers all over the world as a fake gecko therapist and try to dig into their brains and learn a little bit about their lives. I know that's a weird concept, but I promise it's pretty interesting if you give it a shot. Matter of fact, here's a few more examples of the kinds of calls we get on this show.
- [36:31]
Khloe Kardashian
I live with my boyfriend and I found his piss jar in our apartment. I collect my roommate toenails and fingernails. I have very overbearing parents. Even at the age of 29, they won't let me move out of their house.
- [36:44]
Therapy Gecko
So if you want an excuse to get out of your own head and see what's going on in someone else's head, search for Therapy gecko on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It's the one with the green guy on it.
- [36:59]
Jay Shetty
Hey, it's Jay Shetty and I'm thrilled to announce my first ever On Purpose live tour presented by Chase Sapphire Reserve. That's right, I'm coming live to a city near you. Come and see me. Join me in surprise guests for meaningful and insightful conversations to spark learning, experience growth and build real connections. I'll also guide you through live meditations, share groundbreaking insights, and create powerful moments of inspiration designed to deepen connections, spark growth, and foster learning. Chase Sapphire Reserve is the gateway to the most captivating travel destinations and offers exclusive rewards and experiences so you can explore the world your way. Discover more with Chase Sapphire Reserve.
- [37:51]
Anna Sinfield
The number one hit true crime podcast the Girlfriends is back with something new. The Girlfriends Spotlight. Our first two series introduce you to an incredible gang of women who teamed up to fight injustice. Showing just how powerful sisterly solidarity can be. We're keeping this mission alive with the Girlfriends Spotlight. Each week a different woman sits down with me, Anna Sinfield, to share their incredible story of triumph over adversity. Like June, who founded an all female rock band in the 1960s, I might.
- [38:27]
Dutch Vet
As well have said we're going to.
- [38:28]
Khloe Kardashian
Walk on the moon.
- [38:29]
Anna Sinfield
But she sure showed them who's boss and toured the world.
- [38:33]
Jay Shetty
They would just be gobsmacked and they.
- [38:36]
Khloe Kardashian
Would rush up after the set and say, not bad for chicks.
- [38:40]
Anna Sinfield
So come and join our girl gang. Listen to the Girlfriend Spotlight on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [38:56]
Khloe Kardashian
We asked parents who adopted teens to share their journey.
- [39:00]
Therapy Gecko
We just kind of knew from the.
- [39:02]
Khloe Kardashian
Beginning that we were family. They showcased a sense of love that I never had before. I mean, he's not only my parent, like, he's like my best friend.
- [39:10]
Therapy Gecko
At the end of the day, it's.
- [39:12]
Khloe Kardashian
All been worth it.
- [39:13]
Therapy Gecko
I wouldn't change thing about our lives.
- [39:15]
Khloe Kardashian
Learn about adopting a teen from foster care. Visit adoptuskids.org to learn more. Brought to you by Adopt Us Kids, the U.S. department of Health and Human Services and the Ad Council.
- [39:31]
Jackson Katz
Hi, I'm Anthony Scaramucci, former White House Director of communications and Wall street financier. You might have caught me on a recent episode of this is Gavin Newsom. If you like that, I think you'll enjoy my own podcast. The rest is Politics. Us alongside journalist Catty Kay, we go behind the scenes of politics, from the chaos of the West Wing to the forces shaping the world's most powerful economy. I was in the Trump White House for 11 wild days and Kati's been reporting on U.S. politics for nearly 30 years. We bring sharp insight, real stories, and maybe a few secrets you haven't heard before. Search the rest is politics. Us Wherever you get your podcast, hope to see you over there. So back to the manosphere, because you mentioned Joe Rogan, you mentioned Joel Peterson, you know, obviously mentioned Andrew Tate, who, you know, respectfully need not be mentioned much. I mean, he's, I mean, even, even by extreme standards, he's in unique spectrum. That said, he's also been embraced by members of the Trump administration and Trump himself, which, full disclosure, but talk to me about the manosphere. I Mean, what is it? And who, by the way, who are some of these? I mean, people, I think have heard of Joe Rogan. If you. If average person may not have heard of Joe Rogan, then obviously heard something about him. When it came to Kamala Harris not deciding to go to Austin to go on his podcast, though, few people likely were first to learn about him with that alone. But Joel Peterson's someone not everybody knows. Who else in this manosphere, what is it? How do you define it? And when do you start to see the emergence of it? And how real, inconsequential is it in the context of this gender conversation?
- [41:15]
Khloe Kardashian
Well, it was certainly a small sort of dark corner of the Internet for a number of years where men who were, many of them, really angry at women, at feminism more generally, and at women, many of them were men who were divorced, who had custody battles, who, you know, who were really angry at both the courts, in some cases, their, you know, their wives or their ex wives because they didn't have access to their kids. And some of those men were abusive. Some of them weren't abusive. It's a complicated picture. And when it comes to the, you know, the messiness of relationships, I mean, I'm, you know, who knows, you know, but. So there was. There was a sort of men's rights movement which was organizing itself. And then when the Internet came, came into the picture, they were organizing through, you know, through connecting with each other through the digital universe, and it was called the manosphere. And it was, again, a small sort of corner of the Internet. It's become completely mainstream now.
- [42:09]
Jackson Katz
Right.
- [42:09]
Khloe Kardashian
So, so, and, and, you know, Donald Trump's election in 2016 was a big accelerant to the. To the mainstreaming of the manosphere. And now a lot of young people, young boys in particular, but not exclusively, but certainly young boys and young men get drawn into the manosphere. And by the way, not necessarily because they're, you know, ideological. It's not because they have, like, a critique of feminism or something or. Or anything or masculinity. It's more like the algorithms draw them in.
- [42:35]
Jackson Katz
They may be maybe learning on a YouTube version of a video game they like, and all of a sudden there's an ad.
- [42:40]
Khloe Kardashian
That's right.
- [42:41]
Jackson Katz
That's, you know, with a Bugatti or something, and they click onto that, and all of a sudden they're part of some university.
- [42:46]
Khloe Kardashian
That's right.
- [42:47]
Jackson Katz
And then all of a sudden, two months later, they're in a conspiracy theory.
- [42:49]
Khloe Kardashian
That's right. That's right. And and, and, and part. Exactly. And part of the conspiracy is that is that men are being taken advantage of and that men are being disadvantaged and that, you know, feminists are anti male and that you as a man need to stand up and speak up and fight back. Because, you know, that's the whole red pill idea. Like, somehow you're now consciously seeing that the world is lined up for women and which is, by the way, again, talk about a topsy turvy understanding of the way the world works. Right. And by the way, a lot of these men, as, you know, a lot of these men have never. They've never taken a course on, you know, gender. You know, they've never read a book about it. They've never attended seminars. They haven't, like, watched, you know, long YouTube videos or even. Even TED Talks, like my TED Talk or other people's TED Talks. They haven't had much exposure, but they have heard that, you know, feminists hate men and especially white men. Let me just say this is one of the things that I think is really great about you doing this podcast and the kind of people that you've been interviewing, you're having a dialogue. I think, I think a lot of young guys don't hear any conversation like this whatsoever. And certainly if they're, if all they're listening to is the Jordan Petersons of the world and the. And Joe Rogan. And by the way, Joe Rogan has enormous, enormous influence. And he's not particularly ideological, although he does platform people right of center. And he's very conspiratorial in the way he thinks.
- [44:15]
Jackson Katz
Though not long ago, he was, he was platforming Bernie Sanders. I mean, on the other side of the, the political spectrum in that respect.
- [44:21]
Khloe Kardashian
Yeah, yeah. But, but he's also, he's a smart guy, even though he's, you know, I think he's a little bit, you know, he, he goes in different directions, and sometimes I think, oh, my God, he's so insightful. And other times he says things that I'm like, oh, my God. But he does, you know, he, he interviews, you know, theoretical physicists and he has thoughtful conversations. And my son and others that I know, and I enjoy listening to him. So I'm not. This isn't just a complete, you know, sort of dismissal of Joe Rogan.
- [44:44]
Jackson Katz
Yeah.
- [44:45]
Khloe Kardashian
I do think. I do think the Democratic Party has done a horrible job of outreach to men. And I think it's not just about Kamala Harris failing to go on Joe Rogan, although I think that was a mistake. I Don't think that that's unique to Kamala Harris and her campaign. I think the Democratic Party as a party has done a really poor job for 50 years at Outreach to men.
- [45:05]
Jackson Katz
So I want to talk, I want to unpack that a little bit because, I mean, it connects to the manosphere and it connects to what's happening with podcasts and how media is now consumed. And that's been, again, an expertise of yours. It's sort of the intersection of race and violence and gender, but also the intersection of gender and media. But there's this larger trend line that also connects, and that is men are not doing well, right? I mean, suicide rates 4x the addiction rates 3x 12 times more likely a man to be incarcerated. You look at obesity rates, dropout rates, you look at graduation rates, you look at discipline, you look at all these larger issues that you've been focused on in terms of violence. I mean, this is a crisis, arguably. I mean, this is a serious, serious crisis. The state of men. And it's not just white men, it's young men. I mean, what, what is going on in this space? And, and what have you. I mean, you've, you've, you've talked in terms of hyper masculinity. You and my wife, full disclosure, were part of a film you guys worked on together around women and girls called Misrepresentation. But then you followed up a decade ago in this space with a film called the Mask you live in about masculinity, hyper masculinity, man up, be a man, you know, and you called out in that film a lot of these stats a decade plus ago. And so I think you're right to call out the Democratic Party. Where the hell have we been on this topic? We see where the Republicans have gone with it and to exploit, I think, a little bit of it. Not necessarily to solve for some, but, but what are these trend lines? What do they mean to you? And what have you gleaned from and what the hell is going on with young men in this country and maybe around the world?
- [46:47]
Khloe Kardashian
Sure. Well, I mean, there's no doubt that there's all kinds of indications that a lot of young men are not doing well. And you just named some of those statistics and some of your other guests have talked about this subject and thoughtfully, and it's all good. By the way, I do want to say one of the things that, that is frustrating to me is that feminism is not the enemy of men. It's like, if you want to help men, if you want boys to thrive. If you want boys to have better lives, better relationships, better self regard and self care, to take care of themselves. Feminism is not the antithesis of that. Feminism is giving a pathway. Can I also just a related point. The men's health movement, which is a small but growing movement of, of people who are looking at ways in which cultural ideas about manhood, and this is again around the world, it's not just in the United States, but have contributed to men's health problems both in terms of risk taking behavior and certainly in terms of health seeking behavior. In other words, men not going to the doctor, men not going to the dentist, men not going to therapy, dealing with self medication through the bottle or through drugs, rather than going to get, you know, professional help like therapy, because that's unmanly to do. In other words. In other words, the impediment to doing that is a belief about manhood. Like a real man sucks it up, a real man just deals with it. The men's health movement, which is an important movement to say the least, is directly connected to the feminist led women's health movement. In fact, one of the major events in the women's health movement was the publication in 1972 of a book called Our Bodies, Ourselves, published by the Boston Women's Health Book Collective, which was one of the first interventions into the public conversation about how women's health was affected by gender, you know, ideas about femininity and how the healthcare system was set up for men and not for women anyhow. The men's health movement, some of the major figures in it, including my friend and colleague Terry Real, who wrote the first major book about men's depression called I Don't Wanna Talk about Overcoming the Secret Legacy of male depression in 1997. People like Terry Real talk openly about how his ideas were informed by feminist intellectuals and activists and practitioners in the women's health space, in the therapy space, and yet the average guy who cares about women, you know, men's health and who, or listen or listens to manosphere figures talk about how feminists hate men. They have no idea that some of the most thoughtful things, you know, thoughtful people about men's health are direct products of feminist ideas and feminist activism. And I think the reason why I think that's important is because we have too much artificial division between men and women. And I think the right thrives on this division and it's dividing people from each other rather than bringing them together. And I think part of what I do in my work, and I think you do it as well. But I think certainly what I do in my work is because I come from a fairly traditional background and I have all this experience in sports culture and the military and working with traditional men. I've been in all 50 states. You know, I work in red states. I work with really traditional men. In every, you know, sector you can imagine, men can have these conversations and with each other, with women, it's not like it's not so polarized. But I think if you go into these manosphere spaces or the political spaces or Fox, or you watch Fox or you listen to talk radio, conservative talk radio, which I've been listening. I started listening to Rush LIMBAUGH in, like, 1990. I know this stuff really, really well.
- [50:27]
Jackson Katz
We had on One of the OGs, it was the number two on radio, Michael Savage, who sat right where you're sitting just a few weeks ago on the podcast.
- [50:35]
Khloe Kardashian
That's right.
- [50:35]
Jackson Katz
About that history as well.
- [50:36]
Khloe Kardashian
That's right. And they, and, and by the way, these guys created a formula that made a ton of money for them and a lot of other people and, and dividing people and, and, and making caricatures of people that they don't agree with. Rush Limbaugh did it fabulously and, and, and ridiculed and mocked, you know, feminists and, and, and women who are trying to be treated with respect.
- [50:56]
Jackson Katz
So you're basically, I mean, so this goes. I think this is, this is the real dialectic, right, on this topic. It's a difficult one because people just see it's, it's one or the other, it's a binary, that somehow it's a zero sum game. That, that you are somehow diminishing the feminist movement. If you're trying to elevate young men or if you're elevating or the opposite. I mean, how do you start to. There's more of an abundance mindset. What's good for the feminist movement is good for young men is the point, I guess you're making. Is that the point you're making?
- [51:24]
Khloe Kardashian
Yeah. Yes. And, but it's, I have to say, it's complicated because people can say, well, there's only so many jobs, and if women are getting those jobs, then there's gonna be harder, you know, competition for the men. But you know what? If you believe in merit, if you believe in democracy, if you believe in fairness and you believe in fairness, I think fairness is, to me, the governing issue. Right. I believe in fairness, flat out. Women, if women are smarter than men, if they work harder, if they're more talented, then they deserve the job. It's like you don't deserve the job.
- [51:50]
Jackson Katz
Just because meritocracy in that respect is certainly showcasing itself in education system and certainly higher, in which women are on pace in half a decade to be 2 to 1 of college graduates in that respect.
- [52:03]
Khloe Kardashian
That's right. And by the way, anti intellectualism is deep in American culture, especially among men. The idea that if you're somehow smart, you're a wimp, or you're condescending because you're educated, you're condescending to people who don't have an education. And I appreciate that certain members of the educated classes can be clunky to say the least in terms of the way they communicate with people. Like with a less, you know, less pedigree in terms of their education. I don't think I'm like that, but I do think that that's a real thing. But the idea that being somehow intellectual, being somebody who reads, who engages with ideas, somehow makes you weak and soft as a man or less than a real man, this is the most self defeating idiocy that I could ever imagine, and yet. But it's fed daily in the popular discourse, especially in right wing talk radio.
- [52:57]
Jackson Katz
So what the hell is going on with young men then? What's going on?
- [53:02]
Khloe Kardashian
Well, I think it's a complicated world. I think a lot of women, for example, have been pioneering new ways of being women in a very diverse and changing sort of historical social context. And I think a lot of men are as well. We're just trying to figure it out. Like, what does it mean to be a good father? What does it mean to be a good husband? What does it mean to be a strong man? If. If historically being a strong man meant you're a protector of your family and a provider, but then, you know, your wife say you're a heterosexual man and you're married. What if your wife is like making more money than you? What does it mean to be a provider at that point? You know what I'm saying? Like, I mean, what does it mean to protect your kids? When people are dropping off their kids at school and they're worried that their kids are going to get shot in a school shooting, Are we protecting our kids effectively or are we actually through bad policy making our kids more vulnerable? So I think guys want to do the right thing, they want to be respected, they want to be strong, but they don't really know exactly how to go about doing it. And because of the changes in women's lives, and again, I'm making a wildly general statement, and it's complicated by class and race and ethnicity and all these other categories. I appreciate that intersectional thinking is not just a slogan. It's real. It's like people have complex identities. Right. And they occupy complex social positions. But I think a lot of women have been doing incredible things to sort of upend centuries, millennia of tradition. And as a result, a lot of men are completely decentered and are still trying to figure out, what does it mean? What do I mean? What does it mean to be me? What does it mean to be strong? And I think some men are drawn to. And again, I'm not dismissing this. I think it's okay. Some men are drawn to more traditional ideas about manhood, in part because they're simpler and they're just less complicated. So, for example, celebrating physical strength. And by the way, Trump, in his way, he's no intellectual. Right. But he has a visceral understanding of some of this and the Trump campaign, how they go to UFC fights and Trump walks into a UFC fight and everybody's cheering.
- [55:13]
Jackson Katz
It's like conquered hero.
- [55:14]
Khloe Kardashian
Yes. And it's like that reestablishes that Trump is the man's candidate, the Republican Party is the men's party. And they just doubled down, the Republicans doubled down on this in the 2024 RNC. And it was like, to me, it was like a cartoonish, hyper masculine spectacle. I was embarrassed by it, but it was.
- [55:32]
Jackson Katz
You mean Hulk Hogan ripping off his shirt at a convention?
- [55:34]
Khloe Kardashian
Yes, yes. And Dana White saying, he's the. You know, he's the biggest badass. And one person after another going up and saying, donald Trump is the strongest man I've ever met. And it's. I was just embarrassed by this. But it worked. It worked especially for young men.
- [55:47]
Jackson Katz
But you knew it was going to work because you wrote books on this.
- [55:50]
Khloe Kardashian
Yes.
- [55:50]
Jackson Katz
You wrote a book about Clinton and Hillary. I mean, about Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump. You wrote a book about masculinity and leadership.
- [55:57]
Khloe Kardashian
I did, yes. I saw this coming decades ago. I mean, it wasn't. And by the way, Reagan. I mean, how do you think Reagan was marketed to the. I mean, your predecessor as governor of California, how Reagan was marketed to the American population was. He was a cowboy riding in from the west to save a degenerated liberal establishment that's soft and weak. And the Iranian hostage crisis. And Ronald Reagan is going to come in. John Wayne wasn't available. Ronald Reagan. And it didn't start there, but it accelerated with the Reagan administration. And for the last 40 plus years, one of the biggest challenges that the Democrats haven't risen to is how do you, on the one hand, represent the interests of the ascendant classes of women and people of color and lgbtq, and hang on to the, one of the key parts of the New Deal coalition, which is blue collar white men, and how do you do that at the same time? And it's really a complicated challenge.
- [56:54]
Jackson Katz
So what's the answer to that? I mean, because, I mean, it goes back to the Democratic Party. It's interesting. At the dnc, they didn't necessarily platform and they platform pretty much every group, but they didn't platform a group that's struggling and struggling to be heard and identified as struggling.
- [57:11]
Khloe Kardashian
Right.
- [57:11]
Jackson Katz
That are looking for meaning and purpose and mission that you, for a long period of time have recognized are feeling these pressures. Here are these macro pressures. I mean, what, what is, I mean, why, why do you think the Democratic Party did not meet that moment? Do you think the Democratic Party's waking up to that moment? Maybe it goes back to my question a little while ago about what does this moment in this conversation mean? Why do you feel like, is it because of the political opening in this space, more people are having this conversation about men than they have in the past? That's actually illuminating even more of your work as well.
- [57:52]
Khloe Kardashian
Yeah, there's so many pieces to that. I would say the crisis of right wing populism and Trumpism is focusing a lot of people's minds. I think a lot of people who were kind of asleep at the switch a little bit, and they thought the Democrats could just keep going without really addressing this complex set of identity issues, especially involving men, without being seen to somehow be selling out women. And I think the consultant class, I think a lot of political consultants haven't, haven't been on this. They haven't understood this dynamic, the dynamic of, of, of men and speaking to men and, and how, I mean, Steve Bannon, one of your former guests, Steve Bannon says everything is narrative. This isn't about ideology, it's about narrative. And, and I, I mean, I, I'm one of the co founders of an organization called the Young Men Research Project. Right. And we've been doing, we started in early 24 and way before the election, trying to push the Democratic Party, but not just the Democratic Party, journalists, people in the media, to think about the young men's vote, to think about how to speak to young men. Because we were worried about the slide over to the right of young men and by the way, young women moving to the left and politically and young men moving to the right. But it's not ideological. In other words, the same men who voted for Trump, young men, many of them, they're pro choice on abortion rights and you've been a strong leader on abortion rights and unapologetically, which is, by the way, what we need. We need unapologetic leadership from the Democratic side on things like women's rights. But when it comes to, you know, strong labor unions, when it comes to action on the climate crisis, when it comes to increase in minimum wage, issue after issue. Young men are progressive, by the way.
- [59:34]
Jackson Katz
I mean, there's some interesting statewide elections, overwhelming. They went for Trump but supported, you know, reproductive freedom and supported minimum wage increases.
- [59:44]
Khloe Kardashian
That's right. That's right.
- [59:44]
Jackson Katz
Fascinating. Same exact voter.
- [59:46]
Khloe Kardashian
Because it was about identity, not ideology. In other words, the identity politics. This is what identity politics are always. The Democrats are always accused of playing identity politics when they talk about issues relating to, you know, women or people of color or LGBTQ or something. But the Republicans have been playing identity politics with white male voters for 50 years. Richard Nixon started playing identity politics when he started talking about the forgotten man and, you know, the, and the silent majority.
- [60:11]
Jackson Katz
Majority welfare queens. Yeah, they've been playing those games.
- [60:15]
Khloe Kardashian
Exactly. Identity politics. But it worked again in the 2020 for election. And I think a lot of young men and a lot of young men were basically being told that the party that cares about you and the party that is the men's party is the Republican Party and Trump is the man's candidate and the Democrats are the party of women and non masculine men. Right. And that's that that was the mainstream message to young men and young men who are low engagement voters. In other words, what does that mean, low engagement voters? It means they don't pay close attention to politics. They don't read, they don't engage in political discourse, they don't, you know, read think pieces in the Atlantic.
- [60:55]
Jackson Katz
You know, they're not where I am every night on MSNBC or Fox or, you know, Newsmax or cnn.
- [61:01]
Khloe Kardashian
No, but they're. But then, but they're hearing on. And by the way, one of the things that we do in the Young Men's research project is we're looking at all these different ways that the media echo sphere that young men are inhabiting are not necessarily overtly ideological. In other words, a lot of them, they're just talking about comedy, they're talking about working out, they're talking about, about, you know, Eating healthy and, you know, relationship sports. But then they throw in some politics, like. Like, they throw in a little bit of politics and like, yeah, Trump, he. Trump, he's a guy. He's a guy's guy. You know, and then this fight, fight, fight. Which is, you know, by the way, let me just say I was impressed. I mean, I mean, it was incredible shot.
- [61:32]
Jackson Katz
It was extraordinary in the moment. Yeah.
- [61:34]
Khloe Kardashian
Knowledge.
- [61:34]
Jackson Katz
Yeah.
- [61:35]
Khloe Kardashian
And. And so good. Good for him. It's like. But. But then Charlie Kirk comes out and says if. If you're a man, after this, after the. After the assassination attempt and Trump's response to it, but if you're a man and you don't vote for Trump, you're not a man. That, to me, is. That's embarrassing to me. Right. Charlie Kirk, you know, I'm sorry, that's embarrassing.
- [61:51]
Jackson Katz
Oh, yeah, we. We had him on the show as well as, you know.
- [61:53]
Khloe Kardashian
Yes. No, no. And. And again, let me say, also, I think it's great talking to people, having dialogue with people. I have arguments with and discussions with people that I don't agree with all the time.
- [62:03]
Jackson Katz
Yeah.
- [62:03]
Khloe Kardashian
Including men, you know, around some of this fraught subject matter. It's fine. Good. Let's. Let's go. Let's go. Let's have a discussion. I found out I was related to the guy that I was dating. I don't feel emotions correctly. I am talking to a felon right now, and I cannot decide if I like him or not.
- [62:22]
Therapy Gecko
Those were some callers from my call in podcast Therapy Gecko. It's a show where I take real phone calls from anonymous strangers all over the world as a fake Gecko therapist and try to dig into their brains and learn a little bit about their lives. I know that's a weird concept, but I promise it's pretty interesting if you give it a shot. Matter of fact, here's a few more examples of the kinds of calls we get on this show.
- [62:47]
Khloe Kardashian
I live with my boyfriend, and I found his piss jar in our apartment. I collect my roommates, toenails and fingernails. I have very overbearing parents. Even at the age of 29. They don't let me move out of their house.
- [63:00]
Therapy Gecko
So if you want an excuse to get out of your own head and see what's going on in someone else's head, search for Therapy gecko on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It's the one with the green guy on it.
- [63:16]
Jay Shetty
Hey, it's Jay Shetty, and I'm thrilled to announce my first ever on purpose live Tour presented by Chase Sapphire Reserve. That's right, I'm coming live to a city near you. Come and see. Join me and surprise guests for meaningful and insightful conversations to spark learning, experience growth and build real connections. I'll also guide you through live meditations, share groundbreaking insights and create powerful moments of inspiration designed to deepen connections, spark growth and foster learning. Chase Sapphire Reserve is the gateway to the most captivating travel destination destinations and offers exclusive rewards and experiences so you can explore the world your way. Discover more with Chase Sapphire Reserve.
- [64:08]
Anna Sinfield
The number one hit true crime podcast the Girlfriends is back with something new, the Girlfriend Spotlight. Our first two series introduce you to an incredible gang of women who teamed up to fight injustice, showing just how powerful sisterly solidarity can be. And we're keeping this mission alive with the Girlfriend's Spotlight. Each week a different woman sits down with me, Anna Sinfield, to share their incredible story of triumph over adversity. Like Tracy, who survived a terrifying attack.
- [64:41]
Khloe Kardashian
I remember that feeling of okay, this.
- [64:44]
Anna Sinfield
Is how I die and turned that darkness into the most incredible journey.
- [64:49]
Jackson Katz
I want to take over the world.
- [64:51]
Khloe Kardashian
And just leave this place better than.
- [64:52]
Anna Sinfield
I found it, which took her all the way to Paris for the Paralympic Games.
- [64:57]
Khloe Kardashian
Oh my gosh, this is amazing.
- [65:01]
Anna Sinfield
So come and join our girl gang. Listen to the Girlfriend Spotlight on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [65:14]
Khloe Kardashian
We asked parents who adopted teens to share their journey.
- [65:18]
Therapy Gecko
We just kind of knew from the.
- [65:20]
Khloe Kardashian
Beginning that we were family. They showcased a sense of love that I never had before. I mean he's not only my parent, like he's like my best friend.
- [65:28]
Therapy Gecko
At the end of the day, it's.
- [65:30]
Khloe Kardashian
All been worth it.
- [65:31]
Therapy Gecko
I wouldn't change thing about our lives.
- [65:33]
Khloe Kardashian
Learn about adopting a teen from foster care. Visit adoptuskids.org to learn more. Brought to you by Adopt Us Kids, the U.S. department of Health and Human Services and the Ad Council.
- [65:44]
Therapy Gecko
That's the fun part about being an.
- [65:46]
Khloe Kardashian
Artist that you need to have the patience for finding your head. I'm Lagata, the culture's favorite reggaeton historian and mosicologa. On an episode of my show, the Reggaeton Colagata Podcast, I sit down with Bodie, a Bori Jegatonera who's demanding her place in the male dominated music industry. That's the game like boosting and believes, you know. Listen to on America's number one podcast network. I heart follow and start listening on the free iHeartRadio app today let me.
- [66:18]
Jackson Katz
Ask you about just the MeToo movement. You know, the sort of ascendancy of consciousness in this space and then the reaction to it. Do you think there was. There's been an overreaction to it? Do you think there's been an appropriate reaction to it? Do you think people have understated the power of the MeToo movement? Where are you. I mean, just on that spectrum of observation, acuity, interest, your own activity in that space. Where do you come out in terms of just your experience with that movement and with where we are today?
- [66:54]
Khloe Kardashian
Okay. I think. I think we need to, like. Like, one way to think about this is kind of widen the aperture a little bit and think about this in longer terms. For thousands of years, men assaulted women in families, in relationships, in marriages. Marriage was, you know, rape was legal within marriage, including in the west, until very recently. I mean, in the UK it was only allowed in 1991, rape within marriage. And in the United States, as late as the 1980s, there were six states where it was still legal for a man to rape his. His wife. I mean, seriously.
- [67:25]
Jackson Katz
I mean, we. We weren't so long ago cleaning up some statute language on that, even in California. So I completely understand what you're saying.
- [67:32]
Khloe Kardashian
Right, so. So there was some.
- [67:33]
Jackson Katz
Still some language in that space.
- [67:35]
Khloe Kardashian
Exactly. And to this day, there's. There's hundreds of millions of people who live in countries where it's still legal for a man to rape his own wife. So there's been thousands of years of men brutalizing women and getting away with it with absolute impunity. And finally, you have. In the. In the. The 20th century, you have a movement, you know, whether it's the women's movement more broadly, and then more specifically the anti sexual assault movement that started really taking off in the 1970s and 80s, as well as the anti domestic violence movement. So these are very recent movements. I mean, for somebody who's 20 years old, the 80s might sound like a long time ago, but let me just say it's not that long ago. You know, I was just listening to, like, a mixed list from the 80s, and I was like, that was my. I was in my 20s during the 80s, and I was like, I could say I know every word to these songs.
- [68:23]
Jackson Katz
Amen.
- [68:23]
Khloe Kardashian
Anyhow, anyhow, the point is it's not that long ago.
- [68:25]
Jackson Katz
Flock of Seagulls. I'm gonna include it. Or just Duran Duran. We'll talk. Anyway, that's another conversation.
- [68:30]
Khloe Kardashian
Yeah, so. But. But the point. Yeah, exactly. But the point is you had these movements Organized against something that's been going on for thousands of years, and finally, you know, giving a voice to women, reforming the laws. And then because of the Internet, because the, you know, the incredible digital technology that allowed the voices of women to be heard in a way that they had never, ever had the opportunity to be heard. One of, like the MeToo movement happened in part, not just on the ground because of women coming forward, but it became possible because of the technology of communication and the digital revolution. So many of the women who came forward to say, this is what happened to me. This is my truth, this is my experience, yes, those women were speaking not just for themselves, but for literally, literally billions of women and girls who had never, ever had a voice for thousands of years. And so were there examples where it went over the top and there. And where due process for men who were accused of crimes was not taken seriously? Yeah, I'm sure there was. And I'm empathetic, and I always say this because I do gender violence prevention education. I've been doing this for a long time. If you're a man who's been falsely accused of some crime that you didn't commit, it's a horrible thing. And there but for the grace of God go I and other men. So I'm not saying it's okay, it's horrible, and it's unacceptable. But, you know, the vast majority of sexual assault is never even reported, much less falsely reported. So I think a lot of men have this falsely inflated sense of their vulnerability to false accusations. And what ends up happening is that this narrative develops that all these women are coming forward. They can ruin a guy's life easily. And meanwhile, we know how. How much. How difficult it is for a woman to come forward and how unlikely it is that she's going to call that upon herself unless it really something really happened. Now, having said that, I do. I do think there have. There were some excesses and there were some statements, certainly by women and others that were dismissive of men's concerns about being unfairly targeted or falsely accused or what have you. But I think that. I think overall it was a step forward, but it's messy. Life is messy, and social change is messy. And I think we have to give each. And I'm just going to say this. I mean, I'm not, you know, the czar who can make these, you know, issue these kind of edicts, but I would say we have to give each other a little bit of a break. I mean, we're all struggling to try to be Treated with respect and dignity, try to live, you know, lives of, you know, you know, of dignity and in relationships and with all these complexities of race and gender and sexuality swirling about, it's not easy and navigating that space. And so I think what's happening with a lot of young men is that, is that they're really confused, they're really befuddled. And I think a lot of adult men are too. So it's not just the young guys are befuddled. And so part of the reason why so many young guys are befuddled is because the men, the adult men that they look to for guidance are themselves often bewildered. What am I supposed to say? How am I supposed to. My wife wants me to be strong. She wants me to be powerful. But, but, but I'm also vulnerable. And when I express vulnerability, then she's uneasy about that because she wants me to be strong. And I'm not sure what to do. And what, you know, this is, you know, therapists, you know, for example, couples therapists deal with. I'm not a therapist, right, but I know that couples therapists deal with this every day. And Terry Real, who's this brilliant, you know, couples therapist, he's, by the way, Bruce Springsteen and Patty, his wife Patty's couples therapist. And I'm saying that because Bruce Springsteen wrote the, literally wrote the foreword to Terry Real's latest book, which is called We. It's about relationships. And Bruce Springsteen is like, he's like a guy's guy. He's like the prototypical American guy right here.
- [72:14]
Jackson Katz
That's the best he is.
- [72:15]
Khloe Kardashian
But he's also extremely self reflexive and vulnerable. And it doesn't make him any less of a sort of alpha rock star to be able to say he needed therapy, and he needed therapy for his own stuff with his own father and his relationship with his wife. And it was really important to have support in this, this, in this sort of environment. And this, this notion that vulnerability is somehow weakness. This is one of the biggest lies that young men get sold. But there's the pressure on young men to be sort of sucking it up and pretending that they've got it all going on because of, because of the narrative that they're hearing is that a real man does that. And again, some of those manosphere figures that we've been talking about, including, by the way, Donald Trump, who says it all the time, you don't, you don't admit weakness, you don't acknowledge mistakes. To me, that's a sign of total insecurity rather than strength. But I think we need adult men to model strong, adult men to model vulnerability not as weakness, but as. I'm confident enough to say that I don't have it all figured out. I'm confident enough to say that, you know what? I make mistakes, too. But I'm still gonna get back up on the horse. I'm still gonna do my thing. And hearing professional athletes say it, I think, is one of the reasons why it's so powerful to hear, like, professional male athletes, in this case, who have mental health challenges, who will say, you know what? I have panic attacks. I'm a great professional athlete. And look at me. I've succeeded at the highest level in my sport, but I have issues, and that's okay. Michael Phelps, the greatest swimmer, men's swimmer of all time. This is really a powerful part of this. And last thing I want to say about all this, I appreciate, again, I appreciate all the opportunities you're giving me to to say these things. Sometimes people will say to me or to other men who talk about the issues in this way. They'll say, you're trying to make men soft and weak. And if you listen to Fox News, they say it all the time. What's vacation of America? These. The liberals are trying to wussify America. They're trying to make men soft and weak. And it's. To me, it's a cartoon. It's like watching a satire. But. But I reject the idea that I and others are trying to make men soft and weak. I think I want to be strong. I think I'm a strong man. I think that I want my son to be a strong man, and he is a strong young man. The question is not whether we want men to be strong. The question is how do you define strength? And how do you define strength? Is it this cartoonish ability to impose your will on another person and dominate? Is that strength really, in the 21st century, are we supposed to take that seriously as the definition of strength? What about moral courage? What about the courage to do something that even though there's gonna be a consequence for you, that's negative because it's the right thing to do? What about social courage, which is to say, speaking up in the face of, you know, abuse, you know, whether it's. Whether it's, you know, your friends of yours making derogatory comments or online spaces where guys are being really disrespectful to girls or women and calling them out and saying, hey, that's not cool. What about, you know, resilience in the face of adversity. These are all, these are evidence of strength and courage and positive qualities. I think we need to say to young men and older men, we want you to be strong, but we want you to expand your definition of strength. And the reason why that's so, I think so helpful, is because it's positive and aspirational. It's calling men into good behavior rather than calling them out for bad behavior. And I think if you call them into good behavior and say, we need more men with the guts to speak up, we need more young men who the courage to say misogyny is not cool. Treating women with disrespect is not going to get you my respect. It's not going to get you my admiration. Because you know what? You got some issues. If we had more men who were willing to say that and young men willing to say that, then we would begin to counteract some of these harmful things that are happening in men's lives. And I think a lot of young men seek connection. They want relationships, they want intimacy in their lives. But if they're going down the route of hardening up, getting tough, you know, being, being, being sort of, you know, hiding in their shell, if you will, and inhabiting this angry world of the manosphere and the, and the sort of the right wing populist movement, that's not going to get them what they want. That's not going to get them the love and the connection and the intimacy that they crave. So I think we have to say it in terms of men's self interest and boys self interest. It's in women's self interest. Gender equality and gender justice is obviously in women's self interest, but it's also in men's self interest. And I think if people can hear that, I think we have, you know, we've made a lot of progress.
- [76:51]
Jackson Katz
Jackson Katz, thanks for joining us on this podcast. A hell of a way to end and close out this podcast. Thank you for your work, thank you for your advocacy, thank you for your clarity, your conviction and thank you for being at this for decades and decades.
- [77:06]
Khloe Kardashian
Thanks, Governor. And thanks. Thanks so much for giving me this opportunity and for having these conversations. Right on. I really appreciate that, that leadership and that thought leadership and your commitment. Thank you.
- [77:16]
Jackson Katz
I appreciate it. Thank you.
- [77:26]
Khloe Kardashian
I found out I was related to the guy that I was dating. I don't feel emotions correctly. I collect my roommate's toenails and fingernails.
- [77:33]
Therapy Gecko
Those were some callers from my call in podcast therapy. Gecko. It's a show where I take phone calls from anonymous strangers as a fake gecko therapist and try to learn a little bit about their lives. I know that's a weird concept, but I promise it's very interesting. Check it out for yourself by searching for therapy gecko on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [77:58]
Jay Shetty
Hey, I'm Jay Shetty and I'm the host of the On Purpose podcast and I'm excited for my next episode with Khloe Kardashian.
- [78:06]
Khloe Kardashian
God, I've been through so many things that at this point I would rather not feel than feel because feeling is too much for me to handle. I am Khloe Kardashian. Khloe Kardashian, everybody. Khloe Kardashian. No one understands how I'm not just a TV show.
- [78:21]
Jay Shetty
Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast.
- [78:29]
Anna Sinfield
The number one hit podcast, the Girlfriends, is back with something new, the Girlfriends Spotlight, where each week you'll hear women share their stories of triumph over adversity. You'll meet Luann, who escaped a secretive religious community.
- [78:44]
Khloe Kardashian
Do I want my freedom or do I want my family?
- [78:47]
Anna Sinfield
And now helps other women get out too.
- [78:49]
Khloe Kardashian
I loved my girls. I still love my girls.
- [78:52]
Anna Sinfield
Come and join on Girl Gang. Listen to the Girlfriend Spotlight on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [79:06]
Jackson Katz
What happens when we come face to face with death?
- [79:09]
Dutch Vet
My truck was blown up by a.
- [79:10]
Khloe Kardashian
20 pound anti tank mine.
- [79:11]
Anna Sinfield
My parachute did not deploy.
- [79:13]
Therapy Gecko
I was kidnapped by a drug cartel.
- [79:16]
Jackson Katz
We step beyond the edge of what we know.
- [79:19]
Khloe Kardashian
I clinically died. The heart stopped beating, which I was dead for 11.5 minutes.
- [79:23]
Therapy Gecko
In return, it's a miracle I was.
- [79:25]
Khloe Kardashian
Brought back Alive Again.
- [79:27]
Jackson Katz
A podcast about the strength of the human spirit. Listen to Alive again starting May 13th.
- [79:31]
Khloe Kardashian
On the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Why is a soap opera western like Yellowstone so wildly successful? The American west with Dan Flores is the latest show from the Meat Eater Podcast Network. So join me starting Tuesday, May 6th where we'll delve into stories of the west and come to understand how it helps inform the ways in which we experience the region today. Listen to the American west with Dan Flores on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. You're listening to an iHeart podcast.