And, This is How The 2024 Election Was Won with Amie Parnes and Jonathan Allen

Summary

Podcast Summary: "And, This is How The 2024 Election Was Won with Amie Parnes and Jonathan Allen"

Podcast Information:

• Title: This is Gavin Newsom
• Host/Author: iHeartPodcasts
• Episode: And, This is How The 2024 Election Was Won with Amie Parnes and Jonathan Allen
• Release Date: April 30, 2025

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Introduction

In the enlightening episode titled "And, This is How The 2024 Election Was Won," hosted by iHeartPodcasts, Gavin Newsom engages in a profound discussion with renowned political analysts Amie Parnes and Jonathan Allen. The conversation delves deep into the intricacies of the 2024 U.S. election, unraveling the behind-the-scenes strategies, pivotal moments, and key players that influenced the election's outcome.

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Setting the Stage: June 27, 2024 Debate Night

The episode opens with a vivid portrayal of a critical moment on June 27, 2024—the night of the presidential debate. Amie Parnes sets the scene:

"We set the scene in Nancy Pelosi's condo in Washington, D.C., where she's watching the debate alone, sensing something amiss." [04:00]

Nancy Pelosi's Pivotal Role

Pernas and Allen highlight Nancy Pelosi's unique position during the debate. Unlike typical politicians who celebrate debate nights with parties, Pelosi chose solitude, anticipating potential fallout.

"Nancy Pelosi had a gut feeling that this debate could be problematic. She advised Biden, 'Don't lower yourself to Trump,' reflecting her deep concerns." [04:44]

Pelosi, along with other Democratic leaders like Jim Clyburn and Al Sharpton, privately communicated their apprehensions about Biden's viability as a candidate post-debate.

Joe Biden's Declining Candidacy

A significant portion of the discussion centers on Joe Biden's waning support within his party. Parnes explains how intense reactions during and after the debate made it evident to many Democrats that Biden's candidacy was no longer sustainable.

"It was immediately clear to a lot of people in the Democratic Party that Joe Biden just wasn't operable as a candidate anymore." [05:44]

Internal Party Dynamics and Strategy Shifts

The conversation delves into the strategic maneuvers within the Democratic Party to delicately push Biden out without causing internal rifts. Pelosi's approach was nuanced, aiming to preserve Biden's dignity while steering the party towards a new direction.

"Pelosi was the only one brave enough to gently push Biden aside, trying to give him room to make his own decision without leaving her fingerprints all over it." [07:24]

The Decision to Drop Out

Biden's eventual decision to withdraw from the race was a culmination of mounting pressure from within his team and declining poll numbers. The episode discusses how factors like Biden's health issues, exemplified by his severe COVID-19 bout, exacerbated concerns about his campaign's direction.

"When Biden couldn't remember whether he had watched the debate, it underscored the cognitive toll the campaign was taking on him." [24:56]

Kamala Harris' Role and Internal Campaign Tensions

A crucial aspect of the episode is the exploration of Vice President Kamala Harris' involvement. The authors reveal internal conflicts and the immense pressure Harris faced to secure endorsements and support within the party.

"Harris was in a precarious position, balancing her loyalty to Biden while navigating her own rising prominence within the campaign." [35:05]

Endorsements and Leadership Influence

The influence of key figures like Adam Schiff and Hillary Clinton is examined, showcasing their roles in shaping the campaign's trajectory and their impact on Harris' strategies.

"Adam Schiff publicly signaled that Biden needed to step aside, while figures like Alyssa Slotkin privately expressed concerns about Harris' candidacy." [21:03]

Comparative Analysis: Biden vs. Trump Campaign Strategies

The episode contrasts the Democratic Party's internal struggles with Donald Trump's campaign strategies. It highlights Trump's adaptive approach and his ability to leverage key moments to his advantage.

"Trump backed away during the debate, recognizing Biden's vulnerabilities, yet remained steadfast in his unconventional strategies." [58:39]

Lessons Learned and Future Implications

In the concluding segments, Parnes and Allen discuss the broader implications of the 2024 election for future campaigns. They emphasize the necessity for the Democratic Party to rebuild trust, ensure accountability, and better connect with voters.

"The Democratic Party can't move forward until there's accountability and genuine connection with voters, addressing the trust deficits revealed during the 2024 election." [95:04]

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Notable Quotes

• Amie Parnes: "Nancy Pelosi was the only one brave enough to gently push Biden aside, trying to give him room to make his own decision without leaving her fingerprints all over it." [07:24]

• Jonathan Allen: "Biden's cognitive and physical decline was not just a personal struggle but a strategic challenge for the entire Democratic campaign." [24:56]

• Jay Shetty: "We need to have frank and honest conversations; there's no space for deception in politics now." [99:05]

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Conclusion

"And, This is How The 2024 Election Was Won" offers a comprehensive analysis of the tumultuous election cycle, shedding light on the internal dynamics of the Democratic Party and the strategic decisions that shaped the outcome. Through meticulous reporting and insider perspectives, Amie Parnes and Jonathan Allen provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of modern political campaigns, emphasizing the importance of transparency, trust, and adaptive strategies in the ever-evolving landscape of American politics.

For those seeking to comprehend the complexities behind the election's results and the lessons to be learned for future campaigns, this episode serves as an indispensable resource.

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Disclaimer: This summary is based on the provided transcript excerpts and aims to encapsulate the key discussions and insights from the episode. For a more detailed understanding, listening to the full episode is recommended.

Transcript

[Michael Kassin]

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[Jay Shetty]

Hey, I'm Jay Shetty and my latest interview is with Michelle Obama, to whom much is given, much is expected. The guilt comes from am I doing enough me, Michelle Obama to say that to a therapist? So let's unpack that. Having been the first lady of the entire country and representing the country in the world, I couldn't afford to have that kind of disdain. Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. The biggest stars in country music will be taking the stage at our 2025 I Heart Country Festival presented by Capital One.

[Michael Kassin]

Ladies and gentlemen, Brooks and Dunn Thomas Rhett Rascal Flats, Cole Swindell, Sam Hunt.

[Jay Shetty]

Megan Maroney, Bailey Zimmerman, Nate Smith Special guest Dasha Die Hard Country Festival stream only on Hulu Saturday, May 3rd starting at 8pm Eastern, 5 Pacific.

[Michael Kassin]

I'm Michael Kassin found CEO of Free C Ventures and your guide on Good Company, the podcast where I sit down with the boldest innovators shaping what's next. In this episode I'm joined by Angeli.

[Jay Shetty]

Su, CEO of Tubi.

[Michael Kassin]

We dive into the competitive world of streaming. What others dismiss as niche, we embrace as core. There's so many stories out there and if you can find a way to curate and help the right person discover the right content. The term that we always hear from our audience is that they feel seen. Listen to Good company on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jay Shetty]

I'm ready to fight.

[Michael Kassin]

Oh, this is Fighting Words. Okay, I'll put the hammer back.

[Jay Shetty]

Hi, I'm George M. Johnson, a best.

[Michael Kassin]

Selling author with the second most banned book in America. Now more than ever, we need to.

[Amy Parnes]

Use our voices to fight back.

[Jay Shetty]

Part of the power of black queer.

[Michael Kassin]

Creativity is the fact that we got us.

[Jay Shetty]

You know, we are the greatest culture makers in world history.

[Michael Kassin]

Listen to Fighting words on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jay Shetty]

So anyone who wants to understand what happened what didn't happen in the 2024 election? We all know the outcome, but what happened in those 107 days? What happened leading up to the infamous debate? What happened leading up to the convention, post convention, up until election night? My next guest, they understand it better than anyone. They've written a book called Fight. This is Gavin Newsom. And this is Amy Parnes and Jonathan Allen. Amy, Jonathan, thank you so much for taking the time to be here. You've written a hell of a book, and I don't say that lightly. I went through it in a quick hour and a half, almost two hours, and trust me, I don't read very fast, but it reads at an unbelievable pace. It's so well written, and of course, it's so familiar because I felt a little bit adjacent so much of the subject matter. But it's 18 chapters. It's an impressive piece of work, 263 or so pages, two critical sections, sort of before and after. And it begins, your book fight on June 27, 2024, set the scene for me.

[Michael Kassin]

So the way we set the scene in the book is in Nancy Pelosi's condo. Not her condo in San Francisco, not her place in San Francisco, but in Washington, D.C. and she's watching this debate alone, sitting on her sofa, looking at the television set. And she needed to be alone because she had, I don't want to say a premonition, but she had kind of a gut feeling. Normally, if you're a politician, as you know, there's a debate night party, and you go out and you talk to donors and activists and you have a good time and you celebrate and you hope your candidate wins, and you say they win even if they didn't win. And Nancy Pelosi was like, I'm going to watch this at home. And we take readers into how she had urged Biden not to debate Trump at all.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Michael Kassin]

And she had used a nice way of saying it to him, which was don't lower yourself to Trump. But I think, you know, you get the feeling from the book it's pretty strongly implicit, if not express exactly, that she thought this might be a problem. And we take readers around, among other Democrats that had the same feeling, sitting, watching at home, Jim Clyburn, Jack and.

[Jay Shetty]

Diet Pepsi, which is just the scene where Jack and Diet Pepsi alone is worth it.

[Michael Kassin]

And Al Sharpton and donor John Morgan down in California, I mean, in Florida. And so they're all watching this, and they all have the same reaction at the same time, which is a complete disaster. And they're all, all the Democrats are texting each other and they are calling each other, and I mean, everybody watched, who watched that debate, had the same reaction. And some of them had it in the first 10 seconds, some of them had it 10 minutes later. But I think it was immediately clear to a lot of people in the Democratic Party that Joe Biden just wasn't operable as a candidate anymore.

[Jay Shetty]

So, Amy, you know, you picked that scene. Why? I mean, in some respects, that scene also picked the book, the determination that you were going to write this book. I mean, in some respects, my understanding is you weren't even thinking of writing a book necessarily on the subject matter until that debate, which sort of marked a moment of consciousness for the world, not just this country and certainly the Democratic Party.

[Amy Parnes]

Yeah, I mean, John and I were out of the campaign book writing until that night. Our phones were blowing up and our publisher a couple days later was like, you guys have to do another book. And so here we are. And we knew that it was going to be exciting based on what was happening that night, but we had no idea the twists and the turns of that campaign.

[Michael Kassin]

I think it depends on what your perspective is as to whether it's, you know, thrilling and exciting versus reliving some torture. And at the same time, it's interesting, it's fascinating, the behind the scenes of how the maneuvering goes on and like how Pelosi, for example, is trying to push Biden out, but trying to leave, you know, leave as few fingerprints on it as possible, give him room to make his own decision. You know, Obama's calling for an open convention. I'm sure we'll get to some of this. But, yeah, I think that regardless of how you feel about the outcome of the election, it is impossible to understand where the next election's going, what works for parties, what doesn't work for parties, unless you understand what happens behind the scenes. And that's what we worked so hard to get, was what were people actually thinking? What were their motivations, what were the conversations that you couldn't see on television?

[Jay Shetty]

So I think the critical point, and Amy, this is, to me the most fascinating, particularly sitting where I'm sitting on the other side often of some of these discussions from a gubernatorial and electoral perspective. But it's the remarkable access you have to hundreds and hundreds of people that are painting this picture and how extraordinarily well sourced you were to even have these scenes, these vignettes that have been pretty bulletproof. There's been few, if any, critics of that scene setting or anyone that suggested this book hasn't been locked down in terms of its fact checking. But this is your, what, the fourth book you guys written?

[Amy Parnes]

Our third campaign book. Between John and I, I think we pretty much have D.C. lockdown.

[Jay Shetty]

Is that it? Yeah.

[Amy Parnes]

And people, I think, feel comfortable, which is a compliment to what we've done. They feel comfortable talking to us and sharing. I mean, our job as reporters has always been to get as close to the truth as possible. And that was sort of our aim here, to bring, as John said, everyone into the room and give you a glimpse of what was happening. We all saw everything play out. We didn't know the backroom conversations. And I think that's why this book has. People have been so receptive. They kind of wanted to know what was going on behind the scenes and we all knew, but didn't know.

[Michael Kassin]

I'm going to break a key rule here, which is to ask a question I don't know the answer to. You obviously have your own perspectives on this. You have your own experiences with what was going on during that time period between the debate and when Biden dropped out. And beyond that, through the campaign. Did you read anything and say to yourself, that doesn't comport with what I know or understand.

[Jay Shetty]

It was extraordinary how accurate it was in every way, shape or form. And of course I know. But what was for me, I think the most alarming part was trying to go, who's the source on this? Who'd they talk to on this and who's omitted, who's sort of overplayed and how everything sort of shapes out. But you know, look, that experience on the 27th, that night, the debate, I was in a very different place than Nancy Pelosi and Clyburn and others. I was there expecting to go out and do the spin to talk about how successful that debate was. And I was out there doing the pre debate spin on the networks and. And so everything about what you did sort of painted a picture that I didn't have because I wasn't privy to all of those other scenes. And who was missing, who wasn't.

[Amy Parnes]

What were you thinking in that moment?

[Jay Shetty]

No, I mean, I was. I was one of the first 10 seconds bird people. I remember standing up, I looked around and everyone looked and we all went something off within seconds. And then we were just 20, 30 minutes in and the texts were just lighting up and you could see that with all of us that were supposed to be doing the spin and the campaign was out already, caucusing in the corner and the debate had just begun. So it was not a gross exaggeration to say everything you painted in terms of that picture was deeply accurate. And so it's fascinating again just having your perspective and then the perspective of others sort of plate this kaleidoscope, this sort of, sort of aggregated picture of reality. And of course, that reality came to the fore not just that night, but the new, the, the expression of so much of what came out of this book was the internal debates. Then you start to talk about not just that night and Nancy Pelosi's relationship to that night, Clyburn's relationship that night, but the relationship of the Biden campaign and their defiance after that night. They were going to stick in. They demanded loyalty. They tested that theory. We were, many of us were on the CV and end of that talk to talk to us about next chapters and how things began to evolve or devolve from your perspective in terms of the post debate realities.

[Michael Kassin]

So I think that you make the right point. Right. Biden is to the extent that he's in a cocoon before, and I think he really was. There were not many people outside the top White House staff that saw him a lot. So for years we would get little anecdotes of I was with the president, it seemed a little off, whatever. But from a member of Congress or something who sees him once every six months, as we report in the book, he didn't recognize Eric Swalwell, Congressman from California, who is on television literally half the day every day and had to be queued in the summer of 2023 as to who Swalwell was when he met him at the congressional picnic. So you hear stories like that. But you know what happens from that moment is the Biden team digs in, Totally digs in. And he digs in. And this is somebody who has wanted to be president for his entire life. Right. He first started thinking about that, if not earlier, when he first got elected to the Senate in 1972. Yeah. Which is, you know, neither of us was, were born yet and I have gray hair and Amy doesn't have gray hair, but she may soon. Right. So and so Biden wanted to be president forever. He got the job. He believes all the people that doubted him over the years, including Barack Obama and others, were wrong and that they're wrong again. And so he's going to fight this out. And the rest of the Democratic Party looks at him and says, like, this guy can't win. He wasn't gonna. He was on track to lose before the debate.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah. And you paint that picture in terms of where the polls were and things.

[Michael Kassin]

Were trending prior to the debate and now it's unrecoverable. And then the question is, how do you ease this guy who has a big ego, who's stubborn, who has had some sort of non linear decline. Right. Better days, Worse days, Better hours. Worse hours. How do you convince him that it's time for him to get out? Especially if you're Barack Obama and the relationship there is totally tattered because Obama didn't support him at 16, didn't really support him in 20. How do you do it if you're Nancy Pelosi and you have a good relationship with him, like going back decades and decades, decades and decades. They have, they come from the same place basically in the, you know, the mid Atlantic. They're both Catholic, both big Kennedy fans, FDR Democrats that they are close. And she's always respected Biden for getting his hands dirty in politics, for like, you know, trying to get deals done. She always looked at Obama and said this guy wants to float above and have other people do the work. And she respected Biden. She's like, how do you get rid of him? How do you, how do you push him out? But make it his idea, make it, make him. And so you see, and I think a lot of people are angry at Pelosi, Democrats are angry at Pelosi voters who loved Biden and thought she did so much to like push him. And the truth was I think she was the only one that had the courage to, to get out there and keep moving the ball forward with little things she said on television, you know, but I mean it wasn't like a full on bum rush.

[Jay Shetty]

Right.

[Michael Kassin]

So the, all of this is super delicate and Biden's just not going to go anywhere. And then finally he gets really bad Covid and the numbers are looking terrible and House and Senate members are telling him that they're going to lose because of him. And you know, he finally makes the decision that I think most other Democratic leaders understood was going to have to be made three weeks earlier. And the one thing that I think has been difficult for the Democratic Party that hasn't been talked about a lot is either Joe Biden was not competent to run for president anymore and therefore should have resigned the presidency too, because I'm not sure you can make the argument that one is true without the other, or the view is that it's not that he wasn't competent to run or serve, but Just that he was gonna lose. And Democrats decided to switch horses because they were gonna lose midway through a campaign. And I think a lot of voters, especially a lot of swing voters, just were not. Not able to reconcile all of that and think to themselves, the Democrats are telling me the truth right now.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah, it's issue of trust. And I mean, obviously that's a big part, I think, of the through line in the book. But the point of you're making about Nancy Pelosi playing an outsized role here is interesting. And then just reflecting on my own conversations with former Speaker Pelosi is how. How sensitive she was to the parents, that she was pushing him out, and how she went to great lengths. And in the book, you. You chronicle that. But even in the personal interactions with many of us, she would even unsolicited say, just so you know, I'm not pushing.

[Amy Parnes]

She still says that.

[Jay Shetty]

Still says it to this day. She's very sensitive about that. But you, but you are of your. The firm opinion that A2 Nancy, I think, is one of the chapters in the book that she had a hand, a big hand to play in that.

[Amy Parnes]

I mean, we take you inside the campaign in that moment. She goes on Morning Jo. She's a little kind of disheveled for Nancy Pelosi, because she's never disheveled ever.

[Michael Kassin]

Which is like she's got a bra strap showing. But disheveled for Nancy Pelosi is like one hair out of her. Yeah, you're disheveled compared to her.

[Jay Shetty]

God bless you. She's one that's set up.

[Amy Parnes]

But I mean, that moment is such a major moment. She goes on Morning Joe. Yeah, he, you know, she says, he has a decision to make. He's already made his decision. You know, two days earlier, he was already in a letter, was saying, I'm running, telling people I'm running. Don't count me out. And she's saying, no, you know, he has a decision to make. And so we take you inside the campaign, and in that moment, they're all like, f you. What are you doing? We're finally, like, back on track. And you're, you know, we're regressing now. And so it's really, really kind of a dramatic moment of like they're finally on track. They feel like they're finally, you know, moving on. And she pulls him right back.

[Jay Shetty]

I remember that. And I remember being out on the road for Biden, and I remember being on there with Jenna Malley Dillon. We'll talk about her role in all of this. And going on with the campaign team after that debate, doing a little zoom, saying, let's all buck up here in Bucks County. I'm bucking up. We're gonna make the case, coming from the debate, that they really did try to put everything and put a good face on it. Obviously, the president went back out on the campaign trail, had a few pretty good speeches, at least relative to some expectation that held things together. And then he pulled us all in. And you chronicle this with the governors. There's a meeting with all the governors, some in person, some virtually. And you set the scene where the reception didn't go as well necessarily as some had expected. A few governors basically said, Mr. President, we may lose the Senate, we may lose our congressional seats. Tell me more about that.

[Michael Kassin]

So Michelle Lujan Grisham from New Mexico, who is, I think, literally half your.

[Jay Shetty]

Height, Missy, would you be proud to acknowledge, and twice as tough, by the way.

[Michael Kassin]

Right. But that's the thing. She's, you know, she gets in there and she's basically like, we can lose a Senate race here. We could lose House seats that have been safe. We can, you know, the whole thing could go away. And nobody's thinking about New Mexico. Right. That's not like one of the swing states.

[Jay Shetty]

That was not. Not what? Not on our minds when we walked in that meeting.

[Michael Kassin]

And certainly not the only one who expressed those kinds of points. Yep. And not just in that meeting, but outside of that, expressing the same concern to him. States where the Democrats should not have had a problem, congressional districts where they should not have had a problem, suddenly looking, you know, staring down the barrel of a huge problem. And, you know, I mean, maybe you should take it away. What was, what was the rest of that?

[Amy Parnes]

Did you say anything?

[Jay Shetty]

Well, yeah, I did. I mean, I was. We all were asked, you know, what's the advice? I said, the last thing I'm going to give is the President of the United States advice. I can just tell you what I'm hearing on the campaign trail. But it was interesting. The president, after he listened to everybody's advice and as you chronic quite accurately, which, by the way, just for the record, there is nothing in private that exists. I mean, every city, we might as well be, you know, we. We're all wired. I don't know how it's. It's something. I'm now a little more cautious reading your book, that there's not a thing that's uttered in private that ultimately won't become.

[Michael Kassin]

Save some of the good stuff for our next one for your Next.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah, no, but it is a point of consideration. But that particular meeting was so. There was so much that was leaked in that meeting. But you. You, shockingly, almost down to the adverbs and pronouns, nailed aspects of that meeting. But what was, I think, omitted, not intentionally, but was sort of the defiance of the president in that meeting. He. He assert himself. After listening, everybody said, I am all in, and really pushed back. And I remember. And, you know, I could be accused of a lot of things, but I don't think I was accused of not being a loyalist to Biden. And true to that form, there was sort of a pause after he said, he's in. And I started. I said, Mr. President, is it okay that I applaud just to have his back at that meeting? And I just felt at that moment, there was a vulnerability in that meeting. And there was a vulnerability, obviously, the precarious vulnerability as it relates to his electoral fortunes. And I'm one of those guys you go home with, one who brought you to the dance. That's how my father raised me. I think it was exact, literally indelible in my mind, go home with the one you brought to the dance. And so I felt compelled. That's why I went out campaigning for him the next day after doing the Spin Room and being out there. But you painted, I thought, a very accurate picture. So you started to see this thing start to fray a little bit. You started to see loyalists express themselves a few chapters in. You start talking about Nancy Pelosi, but now through her surrogates, perhaps most importantly, Adam Schiff. And Schiff shifts a little bit and says, what?

[Michael Kassin]

It's fascinating. You want to.

[Amy Parnes]

You can go.

[Michael Kassin]

I was just. So he's at a. He's a fundraiser on Long island the day that Donald Trump gets shot in Butler, Pennsylvania. Basically, about the same time, there's a fundraiser that Schiff goes out to do for Alissa Slotkin and Angela, also Brooks, who are running for the Senate for Michigan and Maryland, respectively. And Schiff gets out there and basically says what he hasn't been saying publicly to these donors, which is that Biden needs to go. And to your point, nothing's private. A transcript of his remarks magically makes it into the hands of the New York Times. I have no idea who gave that transcript to the New York Times, but if you were Adam Schiff and you made it, wanted to make this point publicly and wanted to, but didn't want to be the first person to stand in front of a microphone and say it, that might be a Good way to do it. I don't know that that's what happened, but I'm just saying might have been what happened. The thing that didn't make it out from the same event was the transcript of Alyssa Slotkin speaking right after Schiff, who is making kind of the opposite case, which is she thinks that. That Vice President Harris will be problematic for candidates on the ballot, particularly for her in Michigan. She talks a little bit about why, but she's basically like, she's to the left and that's going to be harmful to some of our candidates.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Michael Kassin]

And she says, but she's also like, she understands Biden is also potentially an anchor, but she's much clearer about Harrison. She says, we're not going to skip over a black woman for the vice presidency. So if you're thinking about some sort of like, deus ex machina, new candidate gets picked out at an open convention, you're crazy.

[Amy Parnes]

A Gavin Newsom.

[Michael Kassin]

Yeah.

[Jay Shetty]

Whitmer. Many other. Fill in the blank.

[Michael Kassin]

Jamie Pritzker shows anybody. So.

[Jay Shetty]

Exactly.

[Michael Kassin]

So she's making that case, but she basically says Harris is worse. So the opposite of what Schiff says. It never leaks out. It never leaks out until our book. And then, and then she kind of comes to the conclusion, which is, whatever we do, we have to do it now because savaging each other within the Democratic Party is going to destroy everyone. And she says, so we need to make a decision and quote, unquote, suck it up, buttercup.

[Amy Parnes]

And what's fascinating is at the same time, you have Biden people, his staff out there privately sending notes to donors, saying, and undermining his VP and saying, look, if you push him out, you're stuck with her.

[Jay Shetty]

I mean, that was the hardest stuff to read.

[Amy Parnes]

What a bad look.

[Michael Kassin]

I mean, you're her friend for a long time.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah. I mean, 40 years, going back to before we were both into politics, before she ran for district attorney, before I ran for county supervisor, let alone mayor. So it's, it's difficult because there's so many aspects, and I want to get to how difficult it is because, you know, Nancy Pelosi's relationship with Kamala, and obviously that plays a big role in this book as well. But also Barack Obama's and his lack of support for her candidacy. You just referenced Slotkin, referenced some of the internal dynamics as it relates to the Harris Biden campaign. But let's, let's, let's. So let's go back a little bit. Let's talk about the COVID because I think that was a critical point where the President gets Covid. There's a vulnerability that's expressed. Obviously, he's doing his best to put a good face on that debate, to sort of spin his way out. Has a good couple, at least from my perspective. Public rallies, has an interview which wasn't as effective, perhaps, and it was. Which became an issue. I remember the text messages coming again after that interview. I think it was with what. Who was George Stephanopoulos, which was fine, but people just felt like it wasn't. He didn't get out on the other side. And all of a sudden now he.

[Michael Kassin]

Comes down with COVID He couldn't remember whether he had watched the debate or.

[Jay Shetty]

Not, which was asked that simple question. Did you watch it? And what are your thoughts about it?

[Amy Parnes]

I mean, I think that was sort of the nail in the coffin. And when you talk to people around him, they admit that, you know, him walking onto the plane, leaving Nevada, going home, and then he is in this very vulnerable spot where he's at home, he's surrounded by close aides, he's making the biggest political decision of his life. And, you know, when you're not feeling well and then you're backed into a corner, that's just what happens.

[Michael Kassin]

And I don't think anybody knows just how sick he was. Like, he was having real respiratory problems. People were wearing masks inside his house. I mean, he was not in good shape the final weekend before he made that decision.

[Jay Shetty]

And, and he would make the case. And he made it to the governors directly, but made it very public on multiple occasions as well, that he obviously didn't feel well into the debate as well. And, and, and so, look, you get, you paint the picture then of him. They're sort of reflecting in those private moments back at home. You also paint a picture of a Jill Biden and a Hunter Biden that played an outsized role in saying, dad, we got this right.

[Amy Parnes]

Yeah. I mean, Jill Biden is his strongest, most ardent supporter, obviously, and she really wanted him to. Hunter Biden, as we reveal in the book, he's playing a big role in saying, you have to do this. You've got this pushing him to go further. And he is so dug in and stubborn. You know, the president well, I mean, in that moment, he thinks he's the only one who can win. He still thinks he's the only one.

[Jay Shetty]

He believes that. And by the way, that's very sincere. Having proven that he could beat Donald Trump the first time, he sort of maintained that. And that was always his argument in private, you know, whatever you say about me. And he would try to be a little bit objective and have some situational awareness. I'm the guy and he really firmly believe was the only person that could beat him.

[Amy Parnes]

Yeah, but undermining her at the same time. I think a lot of people in her camp were a little bit pissed off. I mean, I know we're fast forwarding quite a bit, but saying what do you mean you're the only one who could have won.

[Michael Kassin]

Time is precious and so are our pets. So time with our pets is extra precious. That's why we started Dutch. Dutch provides 24,7 access to licensed vets with unlimited virtual visits and follow ups for up to five pets. You can message a vet at any time and schedule a video visit the same day. Our vets can even prescribe medication for many ailments and shipping is always free. With Dutch. You'll get more time with your pets and year round peace of mind when it comes to their vet care. And the dream season is now complete.

[Jay Shetty]

The Golden State warriors are the 2015 NBA champion on the new limited podcast series Dub dynasty.

[Michael Kassin]

It's been 10 years since their shocking.

[Jay Shetty]

Run to a championship. We examine the controversial move that made it possible.

[Michael Kassin]

It's never a great conversation as a player when you hear that you're being.

[Jay Shetty]

Benched for the entire behind the scenes.

[Michael Kassin]

Story of Golden State's incredible 10 year run. Listen to Dub Dynasty on the iHeartRadio.

[Jay Shetty]

App, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Michael Kassin]

I'm Clayton English. I'm Greg Lodd. And this is season two of the War on Drugs podcast. Sir, we are back in a big way. In a very big way. Real people, real perspectives. This is kind of star studded a little bit, man. We got Ricky Williams, NFL player, Heisman Trophy winner. It's just the compassionate choice to allow.

[Jay Shetty]

Players all reasonable means to care for themselves.

[Michael Kassin]

Music stars Marcus John Osborne from Brothers Osborne.

[Jay Shetty]

We have this misunderstanding of what this quote unquote drug thing is.

[Michael Kassin]

Benny the Butcher, Brent Smith from Shinedown got be real from Cypress Hill, NHL enforcer Riley Cote, Marine Corps vet, MMA fighter Liz Caramouche. What we're doing now isn't working and.

[Jay Shetty]

We need to change things.

[Michael Kassin]

Stories matter and it brings a face to them. It makes it real. It really does.

[Jay Shetty]

It makes it real.

[Michael Kassin]

Listen to new episodes of the War on Drugs Podcast Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And to hear episodes one week early and ad free with exclusive content subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts I'm Michael Kasson, founder and CEO of 3C Ventures and your guide on Good Company, the podcast where I sit down with the boldest innovators shaping what's in this episode. I'm joined by Anjali Sud, CEO of.

[Jay Shetty]

Tubi for a conversation that's anything but ordinary.

[Michael Kassin]

We dive into the competitive world of streaming. How she's turning so called niche into mainstream gold.

[Jay Shetty]

Connecting audiences with stories that truly make them feel seen.

[Michael Kassin]

What others dismiss as niche, we embrace as core. It's this idea that there's so many stories out there and if you can find a way to curate and help the right person discover the right content. The term that we always hear from our audience is that they feel seen.

[Jay Shetty]

Get a front row seat to where.

[Michael Kassin]

Media, marketing, technology, entertainment and sports collide and hear how leaders like Angeli are carving out space and shaking things up a bit in the most crowded of markets. Listen to Good Company on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jay Shetty]

We ready to fight?

[Michael Kassin]

I'm ready to fight. Is that what I thought it was? Oh, this is fighting worse. Okay, I'll put the hammer back.

[Jay Shetty]

Hi, I'm George M. Johnson, a best.

[Michael Kassin]

Selling author with the second most banned book in America.

[Jay Shetty]

Now more than ever, we need to.

[Amy Parnes]

Use our voices to fight back.

[Michael Kassin]

And that's what we are doing on Fighting Words. We're not going to let anyone silence us. That's the reason why they're banning books like yours, George.

[Jay Shetty]

That's the reason why they're trying to stop the teaching of black history or queer history. Any history that challenges the whitewashed norm.

[Michael Kassin]

Or put us in a box.

[Jay Shetty]

Black people have never ever depended on the so called mainstream to support us.

[Michael Kassin]

That's why we are great.

[Jay Shetty]

We are the greatest culture makers in world history.

[Michael Kassin]

Listen to Fighting words on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.

[Jay Shetty]

And let's talk a little bit about that because I think it does connect to Jill Biden as well. You, you, you write, you write in the book that you can tell you've read it. Joe Biden, I told you, I'm not making this up. It was fantastic. And people that don't care about politics or think they might or might not be interested. This paints an unbelievably accurate picture of this race, this 107 day race in particular. Of course you go a little bit earlier to the debate on June 27, but as it relates to the issue of some of the animus that you express as it relates to what is perceived and or is accurate about undermining Kamala Harris, who was a very loyal vice president. And you say that in the book, that she really went to great lengths to be a loyal representative of this administration and that Biden primarily had turned the page on any animus from the early election primary. But Jill Biden may not have you suggest.

[Amy Parnes]

Exactly. She always, and this is according to sources we talked to, she always held a little bit of that sort of animosity. Never really let it go from a debate in 2019. And, you know, a lot of people, close aides said that they didn't have a very warm relationship throughout her time at the White House that sort of bled, you know, into this process and what was happening. But, yeah, a really kind of contentious relationship.

[Michael Kassin]

He's still trying. Joe Biden is still trying to do cleanup from perhaps the before the Trump Biden debate, the biggest knockout punch I'd ever seen in a debate, which was commonly Kamala Harris hitting him on busing, which is why Jill Biden hates her. One of the reasons that Joe Biden hates her. Last week, Biden did his first interview or did his first speech since he left the presidency, gets an award. And he talks about moving to Wilmington when he's a little kid and he sees a bus full of black children go by. And he uses the term, quote, unquote, colored kids. He says what we used to call colored kids. And like, I mean, we're all roughly the same generation. Nobody has said that in our lifetimes. And so it reminds you how old he is. But when you listen to the rest of the story that he's telling, he's saying, I asked my mom, why aren't these kids going to school with me? And she says, because black children are not allowed to go to school with white children in Delaware. But decades later, Joe Biden was trying legislatively to make sure that black kids couldn't go to school with white kids. So, I mean, it's like he's still trying to do cleanup duty from what happened on a debate stage with her in 2019. And, of course, stumbles all over himself in doing it.

[Jay Shetty]

All right, so we move forward as we stumble forward in figurative sense, and we fast forward the decision to step down. And you paint this picture minute by minute, quite literally, minute by minute, the inside of the conversations, which is remarkable. I still back to everyone being wired, the conversations between the president and the vice president. The vice president saying, are you sure Mr. President, sort of maintaining that loyalty and firm footing and then immediately organizing independent, it seems of her in another room, her sort of in the pool house. In her pool house with Tony west, her brother in law and the rest of Camelot. And we'll talk about that in a moment with a K, the team to start organizing immediately, a strategy to get people on board. But first, Kamala Harris tries to get the president on board. Tell me about that.

[Amy Parnes]

So let's start with the pool house because they're meeting ahead of this call and you know, she's in a very precarious spot coming into that moment. She's basically telling everyone and she is, she's very loyal to him. But at the same time, she has her closest advisors meeting in her pool house at the Naval Observatory, trying to plan what to do.

[Jay Shetty]

Just in case.

[Michael Kassin]

Just in case. Let me just interrupt you there for one second, which is, we asked one of our sources, we said, what are the odds that the, that all of these people are meeting in the pool house at the next to the pool at the vice president's residence? Like her two chiefs of staff, Minion Moore is like running the convention, is like zoomed in. Tony west is in there. Brian Fallon, the comms guy, like, we're like, what are the chances that they're there? And she doesn't know. And the person who talked to us said, you think there is anybody in the vice president's pool house? The vice president doesn't know exactly what they're doing.

[Amy Parnes]

Yeah, just no. So they're all gathered there when the call comes in.

[Jay Shetty]

Yes.

[Amy Parnes]

And so they're alerted to the call. She is on the call with the president essentially saying, are you sure? Are you sure? And he says, yes. And she says, okay, are you going to endorse me?

[Michael Kassin]

And he says, you have my support, kid.

[Jay Shetty]

You have my support, kid.

[Amy Parnes]

Yeah. And she knows that that's not really an endorsement. I mean, you know, you've been in politics long enough. And so she pushes him and he says, yeah, you know, I'm going to endorse you. But later, later. And think about that moment. Think about where the party is in that moment.

[Michael Kassin]

If you don't hear the E word, it's basically the F word. Right. If you're in politics and you ask for an endorsement and you don't hear endorsement back.

[Amy Parnes]

Yeah. Even if it's Wednesday and we're on Sunday.

[Jay Shetty]

So they were talking about doing it literally, not that same day.

[Amy Parnes]

No.

[Jay Shetty]

But later saying, I'll do it later in the week.

[Amy Parnes]

So Quite literally, people are licking their chops, like, wondering, is this gonna happen? Should I enter? She's trying to get all the support.

[Michael Kassin]

She didn't know anybody was thinking about these things or talking about these things.

[Jay Shetty]

No, nothing about it. So at that moment, I mean, so she's. She. To her credit.

[Amy Parnes]

Yeah.

[Jay Shetty]

I mean, this is the. This is a serious moment. I mean, this is. And she's obviously preparing for this moment, to be fair, along the line of the picture you paint.

[Michael Kassin]

But quietly.

[Jay Shetty]

But quietly.

[Michael Kassin]

She's not doing anything like that undermines him.

[Jay Shetty]

And by the way, that's an important point, and I can only attest to that, too. Again, being sort of adjacent to all of this. They were either extraordinarily careful in that respect or they were so deeply loyal. It could be both, and it appears perhaps both and. But there was never a sense that she was trying on her mind. And I could just lay claim to that in terms of personal interactions and everybody around her, of which, you know, I have one degree of separation. We'll get to some of those characters in a moment. So she gets. She presses the President, and the president agrees that later in the day, at least one of his visors, as you paint in the book, decides, we'll. We'll tweet something out.

[Michael Kassin]

But this requires two phone calls to get to that agreement. I mean, I think this is interesting, right? Like, they. They get off the phone and there's still not an agreement about this. He says it's Sunday, and he's like, maybe like Wednesday or Thursday.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Michael Kassin]

And she's like, you have to endorse me now. Everyone's going to get out of the gate. They're going to be calling their people. They're going to be trying to pick up delegates. If you endorse. If you get out of the race and you don't endorse me for four days. That's four days of everyone thinking that you think that I'm not good enough to be President of the United States and you picked me to be your vp, which is her leaning on him. Right. A little bit, saying, like, you can't.

[Jay Shetty]

Your judgment's at stake here, sir.

[Michael Kassin]

Right. And so they get off the phone and she. Her people draft up a statement for him to give and send it over. And then finally they get back on the phone and go, you know, sort of like Biden, like, I'll do a statement about me, and then I'll do a statement about you later today. And she's like, please be like, five minutes later, you Know, but, but the thing is, even within that, I mean, there's this, this incredible tension where Joe Biden is focused on taking a victory lap as the guy that magnanimously got out of office. And I think you, you look, it looks like you can understand, like he's been president of the United States. He's not going to run. He thinks he's the guy that can win.

[Jay Shetty]

Jonathan, I have such deep emotions about this because I remember getting. First of all, I remember two, two things, Kurt. Why I, I felt just full disclosure, a little bit of disappointment, not getting heads up because all of a sudden just appeared on my feed. I'm like, what. I mean, literally, I remember exactly where I was.

[Amy Parnes]

Where were you?

[Jay Shetty]

I was just down the block. I was just. I was on a walk.

[Michael Kassin]

You're governor of the fifth largest country in the world.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah, right. Which. But I also was. But I was out there. I was hustling. I was out there when is a little lonely after that debate. And I was out there doing these small, you know, Fourth of July, you know, events and, you know, it's 50 people. And I'm just, you know, I'm trying to do that, be a father and do my day job as governor of California. And look, the way it played out actually made me feel better because there were a number of others that didn't get heads up as well. I understood it, but I also understood the gap because I remember wanting to put out. We did we put out a statement immediately everyone starts calling. You could. I mean, those are text messages.

[Michael Kassin]

I think I might have tried to text you that day.

[Jay Shetty]

And. But I. There was a moment where, for me, just personally, there was. I thought he needs his space so we can talk about him, not talk about who's next. And so I understood that gap and I understood his. For from his perspective, I totally understood it. This wasn't about the next thing. This was about the end of his presidency and his public service, and he needed that grace and space. And I remember we were putting together a statement, no sooner than that, that I started to get some phone calls from the same person that was making calls, according to your book, to many other governors and elected officials across the country by the name of Vice President Kamala Harris.

[Michael Kassin]

And what did she say?

[Jay Shetty]

Well, she.

[Michael Kassin]

Reporters, we have to ask questions.

[Jay Shetty]

You already know. So she's. She was making those phone calls and she had that list ready to go, and she's picking up endorsements at a fevered space. And within a couple hours, we had endorsed. Once we had sort of reflected on a little space. Put out a statement for Biden. We're in other governors and you talk about Clyburn. He's in. But someone by the name Barack Obama is not necessarily in. And there's a phone call, I think, forgive me if I'm off at 5:30pm to Clyburn. Former President Obama wants to make it. Clyburn knows exactly why he's calling. Clyburn does what?

[Amy Parnes]

He quickly gets behind her because he knows. He knows Obama's gonna call him at 5:30. And he says to himself, I have to get behind her before this Obama call. And so Obama does call him and he says, I've gotten behind Kamala. And the call lasts less than a minute.

[Michael Kassin]

But Obama at like 5:30 that afternoon. So like five or so hours later.

[Jay Shetty]

For us, five hours.

[Michael Kassin]

He's still trying to, like, plan this, like, you know, mini primary with open convention.

[Jay Shetty]

Let's back up. And I didn't.

[Amy Parnes]

Did Obama call you? I'm curious.

[Jay Shetty]

He didn't call me directly.

[Michael Kassin]

Not directly, no. No.

[Jay Shetty]

But this notion of a mini primary plays obviously a big part of the world. And it was sort of a big revelatory part of your book that people like. Whoa, interesting. Didn't know. We knew a little maybe about Pelosi's role perception, reality there. But Obama playing that role, not of immediately endorsing the vice president, as Biden eventually did, but wanting a mini primary and then also floating names like Whitmer and Moore as president and vice president just to sort of tease out what he thought would be a very strong ticket, but not Harris. Bring me into understanding the history there, because I recall wasn't that long ago that Kamala Harris decided not to support Hillary Clinton. Not an indictment, but decided, interestingly, after being very close to the Clintons. We'll get to that in a moment. But going to the kickoff of Obama and his presidential rally, but it didn't seem that relationship was as strong as some of us had understood it to be.

[Michael Kassin]

Yeah, I think that, number one, I don't think Obama ever saw Kamala Harris's endorsement of him as important as Kamala Harris saw her endorsement of him. Which I guess at some level is understandable given where she was in the.

[Jay Shetty]

World where he was running president.

[Michael Kassin]

Right.

[Jay Shetty]

But.

[Michael Kassin]

But I think that she always wanted a closeness to the Obamas, and they never felt it. Not. You know, I think maybe best said as emblematic is the only time you really heard Barack Obama talk about Kamala Harris before she became a vice presidential candidate.

[Jay Shetty]

In your book, when you state he.

[Michael Kassin]

Said she's the best looking attorney general in the country, which by the way, is not a high bar. No offense to attorney general.

[Jay Shetty]

But in your book, you react, you reflect on the fact she did not react. She did not react as quickly or as well. But she also didn't say anything publicly, which may have created some risks.

[Michael Kassin]

Right. She let him hang there for a while. Right. She let him twist and, and like, I mean, anybody's advisor would advise them to, you know, maybe take a, take a breath, let that, let that sit out there for a while. Let the news media keep writing about it because it's elevating her.

[Jay Shetty]

It certainly did.

[Michael Kassin]

And it got a lot of attention. Right. And I am certain without having spoken to Michelle Obama directly about this, but having spoken to other people, Michelle Obama was not a real big fan of that moment.

[Jay Shetty]

And you, you, you write that in your book.

[Michael Kassin]

Her husband said that. But I also, you know, the other interesting thing that's going on here is so there's this sort of background, like she's always wanted more from them. They don't love her. They're not showing her the love.

[Amy Parnes]

Election night. Election night, for example, she goes and wants to get into his. It's 2008, so he wins. And they have a family and friends tent.

[Jay Shetty]

So you paint this picture as well. Tell us more. And so all the closest members of the Obama team and family members, family.

[Amy Parnes]

Members, family and friends are in a tent. She tries to get into the tent and is turned away, but has a kind of fascination with Obama world. Even as vp, wants to invite the pod save guys over, wants to always make sure that the Obama world people are included.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Amy Parnes]

So she's really hurt in that moment.

[Jay Shetty]

I get it.

[Amy Parnes]

And we're told by.

[Jay Shetty]

I was hurt reading this. I mean, honestly, I didn't fully. It's interesting for what I believed was some insight on all this. I didn't appreciate that that riff was as real and raw, particularly with David Plouffe. And we'll get to David coming on board the campaign a little bit later, but keep going.

[Amy Parnes]

Yeah, but no, she, it needs mending their relationship. This is sourced to people who know exactly what's happening. So it's not like we're just making this up. But she was really hurt. And so it needs a couple of calls between her and the former president to kind of come together to kind of understand what had happened, but she really, really was leaning on his support and. Yeah.

[Michael Kassin]

And in that moment where she's making all the phone calls. Right after Biden says, you know, I'm gonna get out, she's making all these phone calls. She wraps. So she gets Biden's support and gets him to agree to endorse her on the phone.

[Jay Shetty]

Huge. By the way, game changer, right? That's a game changer.

[Michael Kassin]

All those delegates.

[Jay Shetty]

Yes.

[Michael Kassin]

Yeah, right. They all got elected to be delegates.

[Jay Shetty]

And you get Clyburn, you get him, and then all of a sudden you put your point. All the delegates are his. You get the whole operation. She's now able to sell the operation.

[Michael Kassin]

And Bill.

[Jay Shetty]

And it's turnkey.

[Michael Kassin]

Bill and Hillary Clinton within an hour.

[Jay Shetty]

And then Bill and Hillary Clinton.

[Michael Kassin]

Right.

[Jay Shetty]

I mean, so which is, you know.

[Michael Kassin]

Now you've got two of the four living presidents.

[Jay Shetty]

There you go.

[Michael Kassin]

And Jimmy Carter's endorsement, you know, got arrest Jimmy Carter's soul, but his endorsement is no longer, you know, something you're negotiating on day one.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Michael Kassin]

And. And then she gets Obama on the phone and she wants his endorsement, and he says, I'm not going to put my thumb on the scale. Which is, of course, is exactly putting his thumb on the other side of the scale. Yeah, yeah.

[Amy Parnes]

Especially later in the week, too. It takes him several days.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Michael Kassin]

And then they do this kind of cringy video, very awkward call, which you.

[Jay Shetty]

Said was set up, and she had to act like it was a surprise and there's some discrepancy. You describe who really set it up, who didn't set it up. What do you make of all that? What do you make of your own discrepancy?

[Michael Kassin]

Well, we were. Sources told us. Sources that, I mean, basically, I think Jenna Malley, Dylan, who was running the campaign, thought that there was an opportunity to get a viral video, make some money. And not for her personally, but for fundraising, the campaign. Because, remember, the donors had choked off Biden. Biden, like the donors to his super pac, you know, Future Forward, had choked off the money.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Michael Kassin]

Nobody was setting up fundraisers for him.

[Jay Shetty]

Another pressure point on one of the reasons he decided to draw.

[Michael Kassin]

Right. Yeah. He didn't have the money. They thought it might come back if he stayed in, but they weren't sure when. They're looking at red ink, they're worried about making, you know, potentially making payroll. Even though there's a campaign that is likely to raise, you know, a billion plus, ends up raising about 2 billion. But in that moment, they're short on cash and it's like, well, if we can get these two to do something that's kind of viral, we can do it. But Michelle Obama doesn't want to go on camera. You know, Barack Obama doesn't want to go on camera. So it ends up being their voices talking to her, taking a phone call. She's smiling. It's, it's so phony looking. And I think the irony of that is that for the most part we actually see what like get what we see with Vice President Harris, like good, bad and different. Like she seems to me to be one of the more authentic people at that level of national politics in that there's not, I don't know, I just don't like. It seemed so packaged and so phony. For someone who like, you see when she's not like when she's struggling to do things, you can see when she's not comfortable in something.

[Amy Parnes]

She wasn't happy in that moment.

[Michael Kassin]

No.

[Jay Shetty]

You can feel it.

[Michael Kassin]

Yeah.

[Amy Parnes]

Her aides kind of told us as much that she's, she thinks, she knows you have to be authentic in politics and she knows that it's, it's a very staged call. She's not happy about how it's going.

[Michael Kassin]

Yeah.

[Jay Shetty]

Just the whole idea of it. I get it. And it's particularly after, as you've, you've written and now we've learned what, what didn't happen the days prior leading up to that.

[Michael Kassin]

Time is precious. And so are our pets. So time with our pets is extra precious. That's why we started Dutch. Dutch provides 24,7 access to licensed vets with unlimited virtual visits and follow ups for up to five pets. You can message a vet at any time and schedule a video visit the same day. Our vets can even prescribe medication for many ailments and shipping is always free. With Dutch, you'll get more time with your pets and year round peace of mind when it comes to their vet care. And the dream season is now complete.

[Jay Shetty]

The Golden State warriors of the 2015 NBA champion. On the new limited podcast series Dub dynasty.

[Michael Kassin]

It's been 10 years since their shocking.

[Jay Shetty]

Run to a championship. We examine the controversial move that made it possible. It's never a great conversation as a.

[Michael Kassin]

Player when you hear that you're being.

[Jay Shetty]

Benched for the entire behind the scenes.

[Michael Kassin]

Story of Golden State's incredible 10 year run. Listen to Dub Dynasty on the iHeartRadio.

[Jay Shetty]

App, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Michael Kassin]

I'm Clayton English. I'm Greg Lodd and this is season two of the War on Drugs podcast. Sir, we are back in a big way. In a very big way. Real people, real perspectives. This is kind of star studded a little bit, man. We got Ricky Williams, NFL player, Heisman Trophy winner. It's just the compassionate choice to allow.

[Jay Shetty]

Players all reasonable means to care for themselves.

[Michael Kassin]

Music stars Marcus King, John Osborne from Brothers Osborne.

[Jay Shetty]

We have this misunderstanding of what this.

[Michael Kassin]

Quote unquote drug fans. Benny the Butcher, Brent Smith from Shinedown got be real from Cypress Hill, NHL enforcer Riley Cote, Marine Corvette, MMA fighter Liz Caramouche. What we're doing now isn't working and.

[Jay Shetty]

We need to change things.

[Michael Kassin]

Stories matter and it brings a face to them. It makes it real.

[Jay Shetty]

It really does. It makes it real.

[Michael Kassin]

Listen to new episodes of the War on Drugs Podcast Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast and to hear episodes one week early and ad free with exclusive content. Subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcast. I'm Michael Cassen, founder and CEO of 3C Ventures and your guide on Good Company, the podcast where I sit down with the boldest innovators shaping what's next. In this episode I'm joined by Anjali.

[Jay Shetty]

Sud, CEO of Tubi, for a conversation.

[Michael Kassin]

That'S anything but ordinary. We dive into the competitive world of streaming.

[Jay Shetty]

How she's turning so called niche into mainstream gold. Connecting audiences with stories that truly make them feel seen.

[Michael Kassin]

What others dismiss as niche, we embrace as core. It's this idea that there's so many stories out there and if you can find a way to curate and help the right person discover the right content. The term that we always hear from our audience is that they feel seen.

[Jay Shetty]

Get a front row seat to where.

[Michael Kassin]

Media, marketing, technology, entertainment and sports collide and hear how leaders like Angelique are carving out space and shaking things up a bit in the most crowded of markets. Listen to Good company on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.

[Jay Shetty]

We ready to fight?

[Michael Kassin]

I'm ready to fight. Is that what I thought it was? Oh, this is Fighting Words. Okay, I'll put the hammer back.

[Jay Shetty]

Hi, I'm George M. Johnson, a best.

[Michael Kassin]

Selling author with the second most banned book in America.

[Jay Shetty]

Now more than ever, we need to.

[Amy Parnes]

Use our voices to fight back.

[Michael Kassin]

And that's what we are doing on Fighting Words. We're not gonna let anyone silence us. That's the reason why they're banning books like yours, George.

[Jay Shetty]

That's the reason why they're trying to stop the teaching of black history or queer history, any history that challenges the whitewashed norm or put us in a box Black people have never, ever depended on the so called mainstream to support us.

[Michael Kassin]

That's why we are great.

[Jay Shetty]

We are the greatest culture makers in world history.

[Michael Kassin]

Listen to Fighting Words on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Jay Shetty]

Let's fast forward a little bit. That's basically the first half of your book. You lay out sort of this moment and then we pivot into the second half of the book and. And you pull in Mar? A Lago vs Camelot, as you describe it in one chapter. What's going on in the Trump campaign at this moment? They seem a bit surprised that it was that quick, right, to shift and transfer. Overwhelming support pretty quickly, with a few exceptions. And you chronicle one governor in particular, not even consequential in the context of the overall support she was getting. The momentum was there, it was real and it was enthusiastic. And the folks out in Florida were feeling slightly anxious, curious. Give us a little bit of insight into how the campaign of Donald Trump. La Civitas, whiles we're feeling Trump himself.

[Amy Parnes]

At this moment, it's a low moment for them.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Amy Parnes]

You know, they are sitting there looking at the vibe, if you will. They see that Democrats are actually excited for once. You know, they weren't getting that from them at any point. And here they are, huge convention, lot of momentum. She's raising a lot of money, she is attracting big crowds. Biden isn't getting those crowds, wasn't getting them before. So he's wondering what do I need to do differently? Do I need to shake things up? Do I need to bring back the people from my past?

[Jay Shetty]

And there's one particular character you referenced in the book by the name of Corey Lewandowski. Lewandowski. And he appears again, and he appears as an irritant of sorts to the two folks, the loyal soldiers, La Civitas and Wiles, who had been running this campaign in a way that a lot of folks were pretty impressed by, particularly by Trump's standards. I don't know if we're grading on a curve or not, but it seemed to be a well managed campaign, a little different than the campaign four year prior.

[Michael Kassin]

Trump is Trump and there are different shades of Trump, but you pretty much know where you're going to get, which is something different every time you see him. Definitely, you know, attracting news and sometimes undercutting himself and whatever. But the question is like, what does the campaign do beneath him? Right. Are they able to react to him in ways that support him winning, or do they devolve into Chaos, because they can't figure out what he's doing. And we've seen option B a lot like in his first presidency, even a little bit in the second presidency and in his previous campaigns. This time Wiles and La Civita, who didn't really know each other before this election, but are both seasoned campaign professionals.

[Jay Shetty]

Just so paint the picture because people know who the La Civitas this is. The guy did Swift Boat against the Kerry campaign many, many years ago. This, I mean, in political terms, I mean, this guy is as tough as it gets. Brass knuckles.

[Michael Kassin]

Yeah. I mean, yeah, if you're in a trench somewhere, you know, first of all, he's a veteran, but like if you're in a trench somewhere in politics, like you want that guy, like he's going to fight.

[Jay Shetty]

And meanwhile, Wiles is, is a well respected, respected operative in Florida that's managed a lot of campaigns, including former governor or current governor, but formerly for Governor Ron DeSantis.

[Michael Kassin]

Yeah. The, the daughter of Pat Summerall. Pat Summerall, former football legend. Yeah. Legendary Pat Summerall, who I am sure called many San Francisco 49ers.

[Jay Shetty]

Mr. Madden. Thank you, sir.

[Michael Kassin]

Yes, but he, but Susie is somebody who has been involved in politics for her entire career and she is in her like mid-60s now and she like got her first job in the White House in the Reagan White House, like you know, kind of early in life worked at the labor department for him and then went to Florida and worked for mayors in, you know, Jacksonville. Right. And like really sort of got to understand politics from the ground up too.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Michael Kassin]

Ran some high profile Florida statewide campaigns. DeSantis. And she, she manages well, she's just, just a good manager. I mean, well respected.

[Jay Shetty]

You hear that across party lines. People do not underestimate her. And one should not. She's current chief of staff of President Trump.

[Michael Kassin]

Yeah. And so Lewandowski comes in and he ran the 16 campaign for Trump until he got booted from that, you know, sort of toward the end of the primary. And he comes in and he does what everyone does in Trump world, which is when they sense a little blood in the water and Harris is rising in the polls and Trump's falling back a little bit. And it's at this moment in like September, even into early October, it's basically a dead heat.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Michael Kassin]

And Trump is furious about this because he, he'd beaten Biden.

[Jay Shetty]

Yep. It was, he felt it was over collaborative in the debate. In fact, you even paint a picture in the debate. He kind of even was a little more empathetic. He decided not to go in for the kill. Yeah, he backed off and even backed off, off even Trump during the debate.

[Michael Kassin]

You describe some kind of combination of. Of him recognizing that, you know, in this moment that, like, Biden is wounded and there's no need to kick him, and also understanding the political backlash of, as he puts it, looking. You know, he doesn't want to look like, as he's thinking.

[Jay Shetty]

So this guy's. I mean, he's feeling. Everything's going in his direction. This thing's a walk. And now all of a sudden, he brings in the old pro to sort of stress test his old buddy Lewandowski that's going to come in and it's going to look under the tires. Because one of the vulnerabilities, one of the things Trump doesn't like, you describe in your book, is wasteful spending profligacy. And it appeared, at least to Lewandowski and some of the critics out there, that La Civitas had banked a little too much. 20 plus million or something.

[Michael Kassin]

Well, I mean, that's just like. That's an absurd amount. Let me just think about, like, the idea that some campaign staffers got $22 million coming. I mean, it's just like, on its face, absurd. But this is the. This is the stuff Corey Lewandowski is, you know, using against La Civita and against Susie to some extent. Like, the argument that Lewandowski is making to Trump is the reason that you are having trouble right now politically. The reason that Kamala Harris is rising, you're falling, is that these guys are mismanaging your campaign. And this. And Trump wants. That's the kind of thing that usually gets Trump to act. And, And Susie and Chris go to Trump in Mar? A Lago, unbeknownst to Cory, and they sit down with them and they lay out what all the campaign spending is, and I think they lay out a little bit of who Corey is, and they all get on Trump force one. And Trump calls Corey over and just, I mean, like a schoolboy, he's like, at one point, like, kind of kneeling at the table.

[Jay Shetty]

I mean, you literally describe him kneeling at the table.

[Michael Kassin]

And Trump, you know, looks at Lewandowski and he points to Susie and Chris and he goes, they're in charge. And you're going to New Hampshire, which is not doing.

[Jay Shetty]

You're supposed to be doing.

[Michael Kassin]

Right. Corey's from New Hampshire at least. Right. But I mean, basically, yeah, like, like, stop. Like, go away, go away. Like, love you, Cory. Great guy. Glad you support me. Go Somewhere.

[Amy Parnes]

But for anyone who thinks that we just focus on the Democratic train wreck.

[Jay Shetty]

No, no. So, I mean, this is it as sort of we pivot now in the section two of your book. Now all of a sudden, we start to pull Trump into this narrative and of course, that anxiety. But he sticks with his team and he shows, as you suggest in the book, a maturity in terms of a discipline of the campaign that he may, that may not have been as present.

[Michael Kassin]

I think 21st, 20. I think 2020 had an effect on him. I think he learned some lessons from it. In this moment and in others, he chooses stability over chaos for the purpose of winning the presidency. We do not always see that now, now that he's in his second term, and we often see the opposite of that. But for that moment, he's got to win this race. And he lost in 2020, and it burns him. And he's trying to stick with the things that he think. Dance with the one that brought you. Yep. He's doing that with these campaign folks. And you even see it in the policies that he chooses, where his aides are giving him strong advice on, say, a national abortion ban, where they say, don't they have to do a slideshow for them? And they're like, here's what the abortion laws are in Michigan and Pennsylvania and Wisconsin, the swing states. And if you do a national abortion ban, you're taking abortion, but abortion rights away from women in those states. But if you don't support it, their rights stay the same. And therefore that's. You're taking it off the table as an issue in those states, or at least for a lot of the voters. Right. So you see him kind of learning from the last time. He supports early voting in this election, which he doesn't believe in, which he's going to take a try to take away now that he's president. But he is told you get to bank the vote. So again, this money thing, it's like if you, once you have a vote in early, you don't have to spend money to convince that voter anymore.

[Jay Shetty]

So you describe. And as we move further into the book, we have this dialectic between the Harris campaign and the Biden campaign and this notion around change. Obviously, every election's about change or allegedly every election about change, but it's difficult. You have a sitting vice president. It's been endorsed by President Biden. Deep pride in the work that President Biden's done in his legacy. He wants that legacy maintained. You describe Trump showing a little bit, not, I'm not going as far as sister shoulder moment, but shows some dexterity, a willingness to shift in terms of policy principles on the national abortion brand, kind of break with some of the mainstream of this party, more of the conservative element of his party. But Harris had a more difficult time in that space. You describe a moment in time that was indelible for many people, and that was her appearance on the View.

[Amy Parnes]

Yeah.

[Jay Shetty]

Take us through.

[Amy Parnes]

So we should start by saying that her aides had prepped her for this moment, that she's about to be asked on the View. She's asked, what would you change about, you know, Biden's presidency? And she says, not a thing, essentially.

[Jay Shetty]

But she was prepped for that question.

[Amy Parnes]

She was prepped for that question.

[Jay Shetty]

Was that the answer?

[Amy Parnes]

It was not the answer. She was supposed to say that. But, and I know you know this more than anyone, she was supposed to pivot forward and say, but you know, the future is going to look a lot different. And so when she says it, her aides are all like, what? What just happened? We just, we prepped for this moment. And they can't believe in that moment, the Trump campaign was looking for something in her words to kind of make that point, to say, in a change election, she is exactly what we just had. And here she is saying it. And they put out an ad a few days later. I'm surprised it even took that long. But they put out an ad essentially saying, no, she. It's going to be exactly a rubber stamp of more of the same.

[Jay Shetty]

And this is at a time when the right track, wrong track of the country was way off. And all the inflation scars, including, well, I mean, across the spectrum, people really were looking for fundamental change.

[Amy Parnes]

And what a weird spot for her to be in because, you know, she was always trying to prove that she was a loyalist. And here she is. She is a loyalist. She's very loyal to him.

[Jay Shetty]

She was very loyal publicly, not just privately in that respect. And express that. And, and, and you paint a picture. And I think the outcome of the election may suggest that she did that, her own parallel, own electoral peril. But that.

[Michael Kassin]

And with Joe Biden, pardon me, Governor, with President Biden breathing down her neck over and over and over again saying, no daylight, kid. He says it to her, and that's an exact quote the day of her debate with Trump. And this is the thing he's been telling her for years, there should be no daylight between us. Meaning, you don't undermine me. You're my vice president.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Michael Kassin]

You don't Undermine me.

[Jay Shetty]

I mean, you know what? I'm not, I'm not a political pundit. I'm not an advisor. I don't even play a good one as a governor, trying to be objective. But what the hell are you supposed to do? The minute she deviates from them, they'll pounce and they'll show all the videos of her shaking her head, standing behind them at the podium when President Biden makes an announcement. It's a very difficult position. And presumably they thought, and I say they because David Plouffe now appears in the picture, an old hand, obviously one of Obama's principal consultants and campaign strategists. They merged with Geno Malley Dillon, who was running the Biden campaign. They try to integrate the two. They have a long standing relationship, Plouff and O'Malley. And so they're sort of, they're dancing this dance, but they see the crowds, they see Kamala Harris up there, a woman, African American. She has changed. She seems to be the personification to change. They can make that case maybe without even making the case, but that's what.

[Michael Kassin]

They did with Obama in 2008, right, in 2008, which was also a change election. And George W. Bush was deeply unpopular and there was a financial crisis in the middle of that campaign. And they couldn't have known that when they started with Obama as change, but they knew Barack Obama represents physical change. You can see the change. You don't have to say it. They don't ever have to talk about his skin color. Right? They don't have to talk about his name. Like, whatever. They know he. That was their 2008 campaign. This is 2024. And you have the same people running a campaign with the same concept here that people are going to look at her and say, well, that's the change I'm looking for. Like, it's just, it's as if they didn't watch the last 16 years of politics or so and they're running cookie cutter campaigns that rely on like sort of this, this crazy, like sort of data analysis as your strategy. And the thing that I always come back to as emblematic, not, not necessarily causal, is the trans ad that was run against Harris. Time is precious and so are our pets. So time with our pets is extra precious. That's why we started Dutch. Dutch provides 24 access to licensed vets with unlimited virtual visits and follow ups for up to five pets. You can message a vet at any time and schedule a video visit the same day. Our vets can even prescribe medication for many ailments and shipping is always free. With Dutch, you'll get more time with your pets and year round peace of mind when it comes to their vet care. And the dream season is now complete.

[Jay Shetty]

The Golden State warriors are the 2015 NBA. On the new limited podcast series Dub dynasty.

[Michael Kassin]

It's been 10 years since their shocking.

[Jay Shetty]

Run to a championship. We examine the controversial move that made it possible. It's never a great conversation as a.

[Michael Kassin]

Player when you hear that you're being.

[Jay Shetty]

Benched for the entire behind the scenes.

[Michael Kassin]

Story of Golden State's incredible 10 year run. Listen to Dub Dynasty on the iHeartRadio.

[Jay Shetty]

App, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.

[Michael Kassin]

I'm Clayton English. I'm Greg Lodd and this is season two of the War on Drugs podcast. Sir, we are back in a big way. In a very big way. Real people, real perspectives. This is kind of star studded a little bit, man. We got Ricky Williams, NFL player, Heisman Trophy winner. It's just the compassionate choice to allow.

[Jay Shetty]

Players all reasonable means to care for themselves.

[Michael Kassin]

Music stars Marcus King, John Osborne from Brothers Osbourne.

[Jay Shetty]

We have this misunderstanding of what this quote unquote drug thing is.

[Michael Kassin]

Benny the Butcher, Brent Smith from Shinedown, Got Be Real from Cypress Hill, NHL enforcer Riley Cote, Marine Corps vet, MMA fighter Liz Caramouche. What we're doing now isn't working and.

[Jay Shetty]

We need to change things.

[Michael Kassin]

Stories matter and it brings a face to them. It makes it real.

[Jay Shetty]

It really does. It makes it real.

[Michael Kassin]

Listen to new episodes of the War on Drugs Podcast Season 2 too from the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And to hear episodes one week early and ad free with exclusive content. Subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Jay Shetty]

We ready to fight?

[Michael Kassin]

I'm ready to fight. Is that what I thought it was? Oh, this is Fighting Words. Okay, I put the hammer back.

[Jay Shetty]

Hi, I'm George M. Johnson, a best.

[Michael Kassin]

Selling author with the second most banned book in America.

[Jay Shetty]

Now more than ever, we need to.

[Amy Parnes]

Use our voices to fight back.

[Michael Kassin]

And that's what we are doing on Fighting Words. We're not going to let anyone silence us. That's the reason why they're banning books like yours, George. That's the reason why they're trying to.

[Jay Shetty]

Stop the teaching of black history, of queer history, any history that challenges the whitewashed norm or put us in a box. Black people never ever depended on the so called mainstream to support us.

[Michael Kassin]

That's why we are great.

[Jay Shetty]

We are the greatest culture makers in world history.

[Michael Kassin]

Listen to Fighting words on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Foreign Michael Kassin, founder and CEO of 3C Ventures and your guide on Good Company, the podcast where I sit down with the boldest innovators shaping what's next. In this episode, I'm joined by Anjali.

[Jay Shetty]

Sud, CEO of Tubi, for a conversation.

[Michael Kassin]

That'S anything but ordinary. We dive into the competitive world of streaming. How she's turning so called niche into mainstream gold.

[Jay Shetty]

Connecting audiences with stories that truly make them feel seen.

[Michael Kassin]

What others dismiss as niche, we embrace as core. It's this idea that there's so many stories out there and if you can find a way to curate and help the right person discover the right content. The term that we always hear from our audience is that they feel seen.

[Jay Shetty]

Get a front row seat to where.

[Michael Kassin]

Media, marketing, technology, entertainment and sports collide and hear how leaders like Angeli are carving out space and shaking things up a bit in the most crowded of markets. Listen to Good company on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jay Shetty]

So let's talk about that because you, you just brought up the issue of data and it plays a big role in your book. You really analyze that. I mean you sort of lay out how analytical this campaign was and the utilization of this billion and a half dollars, the $2 billion that was the overall spend in this campaign and how those resources were put to work. And it was a data to your point, data driven campaign and decisions were made or not made on that basis. And you just referenced an ad and interesting, I had an interesting Oval Office conversation at least with the chief of staff while I was waiting to see President Trump in the Oval Office with La Civitas and we talked about this ad.

[Michael Kassin]

I think you should tell that story now.

[Jay Shetty]

And they lay out what they perceived as a weakness. And they asked me, as someone from California, intimately familiar with some of the ongoing of the campaign, why didn't she respond more forcefully? And in your book, you answer that question, you pose it and answer it by saying, well, the data bared out.

[Amy Parnes]

We didn't need to answer Bill Clinton calls. He's watching. He's in California, he's watching the ads play out and he picks up the phone and he's trying to reach anyone who will, anyone who will.

[Jay Shetty]

But he finally gets in touch with.

[Amy Parnes]

Jenna Mali Dillon and he says, you know what's going on? Every time I'm at a rope line, I keep hearing from people are they going to respond to this? He's watching it.

[Jay Shetty]

And the ad is they them. So it's a, it's an ad. Yeah. So she's in a candidate interview during the primary for the original election or the old election. And, and she's asked a question around trans surgeries. And so there's a video of her expressing her policy point of view. So it's not assertion, it's an actual video. And the Trump campaign decides to play this up and it's on every sports program. They're targeting young men. We'll get to that issue of gender in a second. And it seems to be very effective. And based upon what I heard directly from the source, they said it was not just effective, it was off the charts effective. But the data wasn't bearing that out. That's what she said in the Harris campaign.

[Amy Parnes]

That's what she genitally Dylan tells Bill Clinton when he calls up and he's like, what's going on? But the data, the data, the data.

[Michael Kassin]

Says, says the, the transat is not effective against Harris. And even more than that, they're, they test their responses with focus groups and decide that none of the responses are effective. And like, I don't think you have to be a political genius to, I mean I'm sure you watched that ad the first time watching the World Series or a football game, whatever, and your jaw dropped. You're like, wow, I what did you tell me if you felt differently?

[Jay Shetty]

But like, oh, I, I was with the Clinton camp at the time. Oh. And we, not only was I the Clinton camp, full disclosure, we started doing our own research. This of course happened and it, and the research was self evident. There was already articles coming out that this was a policy that was, that existed when Trump was president, United States. So there you have a vulnerability. He's attacking the Vice President for a position that he was allowed to advance as president. So you had an opportunity to push back there. But also we started doing our own research because this was at CDCR in the state of California. What's the origin story of this policy? Was there a settlement? It was court and post settlement. She was ag. She was compelled to advance that settlement based upon a judge's decision. And so all of these areas of opportunity to push back. And I think we all expressed strong opinion, I'll leave it at that in hope and expectation. But they chose not to.

[Amy Parnes]

Did you get a similar response?

[Jay Shetty]

We just, you know, well, I gotta not. How about this not dissimilar response? Is that a political politician trying to answer a question.

[Michael Kassin]

Fair. I think, I think, I think we got it.

[Jay Shetty]

But it's, but it was interesting, but it, but it played, it goes, it goes to some of these key moments because you, you, you mark this as a key moment and you mark that. David Plouff came in saying this is election all about key moments. It's about debates, it's about the convention. It's about these sort of magical moments that move in your direction or in the opposite direction. But that seemed to play an outside. Because they put what, 30 plus million dollars into that one ad alone, correct?

[Michael Kassin]

Yeah, I don't remember the exact amount, but it was a ton. Because it was playing everywhere and it was playing nationally. Right. It's playing again. The World Series NFL get like Monday Night Football. Right. I mean it is hitting a ton of viewers and hitting them over and over and over again. I think one of the things that, that's sort of interesting about this, I would just take a, you know, this sort of data thing. I mean, look, you're watching football, they tell you to go on fourth and two because the data tells you to go. And sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Right. But if you're the coach, you should know my offensive line is actually kind of. They're huffing and puffing right now and the quarterback's got a bad ankle. And maybe even though the data says I should do it, I'm watching reality.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Michael Kassin]

So you see the trans ad and it's like, like her own words. It's like four or five different positions. Right. State funded trans surgery for undocumented immigrants who are in prison.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Michael Kassin]

And the they them versus he's for you.

[Jay Shetty]

He's for you. What a tagline.

[Amy Parnes]

What a tagline. Probably the most potent political ad of the last several cycles.

[Jay Shetty]

And so you'd be hard pressed to disagree.

[Michael Kassin]

So I go back at this data stuff and I'm like, so where does this come from? And I think it's this, this myth that grew out of 2008 that Barack Obama's campaign team made Barack Obama president. And there was a whole lot written, there were magazine articles and books and about how the brilliant people around Barack Obama made him president. And none of it stopped to say, maybe Barack Obama was a unique political talent. B, maybe he was running an election where there was a super weakened incumbent party. Right. I mean, it was all like, oh, we had this great data team. That must be why he won.

[Jay Shetty]

Interesting.

[Michael Kassin]

And I'm like, I don't know. Is that really your conclusion for why Barack Obama was president of the United States, not mine.

[Jay Shetty]

You're talking about my friends here, Jonathan. David's a good friend.

[Michael Kassin]

I'm not.

[Jay Shetty]

They're incredibly talented. But I appreciate your point. I'm not the broader point about, you know, what lessons we learn and, you know, and who is. I mean, it is a great point. I mean, is it the candidate or is it the campaign?

[Michael Kassin]

Well, and I would go back to David and I would say, I'm not knocking David. David was the campaign manager on that 2008 campaign. They ran a really good campaign. I'm. It's the people that, like, come out of that learning, like, yeah, oh, it must have been this. I don't think if you talk to David Plouffe, he would tell you Barack Obama was president, the United States, because David plus a genius. And I'm not saying David plus, he.

[Jay Shetty]

Would never acknowledge that. No.

[Michael Kassin]

Right. So, like, I mean, but I do think that you come down a generation or two, and the people that worked on that campaign or around it kind of draw some of the wrong.

[Jay Shetty]

I think. So I'd be one of them. Right. I mean, I would revere, though, that insight they would have. And as a candidate, I would look to the. I would, would. And you would be remarkably deferential. I mean, and look, she had 107 days, this thing. And by the way, I thought in, in, I humbly submit, I thought she won or ran under the circumstances, a pretty remarkable campaign. But you paint a few circumstances that test that theory. And one of them, as we move towards 270 and getting near page 268, the conclusion of your book, 270 electoral votes, I'm referring to is Texas, all things Texas. This notion that, all right, he's playing these ads, he's going after young men. Trump's also sort of playing into an archetype and a cultural thing. He's got Hulk Hogan there. He's got him ripping off his shirt. He's got Dana White, he's at UFC events. He's going because Barron, at least Trump claims Barron says, hey, there's this thing, podcast, you should go on him, dad. And he starts going on Yvonne, all these folks books. And then there's this guy by the name of Joe Rogan. Rogan plays a seemingly outsized role not just in the campaign, but also in your book, Texas hold'em.

[Amy Parnes]

Yeah. So this rally happens in Texas, and everyone's questioning, why is she going to Texas?

[Michael Kassin]

We're in the fight on a Friday night in October.

[Jay Shetty]

We're gonna we are eventually Democrats will take back Texas. Come on.

[Michael Kassin]

I'm with you.

[Jay Shetty]

Near the end of the campaign, there's high school football. There's some tonal issues there. God bless.

[Amy Parnes]

But she, she goes there and everyone's like, why? Why not Pennsylvania? Why not anywhere else? She's in Texas. We find out in this book. We do reporting. They move the, they create this entire rally to be in Texas on Friday night because they want to be within striking distance of Joe Rogan's podcast. He doesn't go anywhere.

[Jay Shetty]

He's in Austin, Texas. You have to find anywhere Trump had to go visit him. You, Madam Vice President, will visit him.

[Amy Parnes]

Yeah. And so they are in this back and forth with his people. When do we go? When a huge back and forth. They finally say they're, they're trying to, to arrange one date. And finally this is at the end of like a, a huge back and forth. And they finally come to the conclusion that, you know, he is taking a personal day.

[Jay Shetty]

So Rogan tells the Harris campaign, according to your folks, according to your sources in your book, he's not available that Friday because he has a personal day. What? Ha.

[Amy Parnes]

It turns out President Trump is there on that day.

[Jay Shetty]

So he had. And presumably that personal day was already filled. Locked in with former President Donald Trump in person for a three hour sit down with Joe Rogan. Meanwhile, Harris is there on a Friday night expecting Beyonce to come out to sing. And Beyonce comes out and does not sing.

[Michael Kassin]

And we ended up, you know.

[Jay Shetty]

But you rightfully make the case. Beyonce is not a bad.

[Michael Kassin]

That's not a bad.

[Jay Shetty]

No. It's about as good as it gets. Even you acknowledge in your book.

[Michael Kassin]

When my wife and I renew our vows, hopefully Beyonce will come sing.

[Jay Shetty]

Well said.

[Michael Kassin]

At the ceremony.

[Jay Shetty]

But there was some expectation. Worst case, because she's going to come in and say she ends up just giving a speech.

[Michael Kassin]

She just gives a speech. And so.

[Jay Shetty]

Which is wonderful nonetheless.

[Michael Kassin]

I'm sure she would love to have had Beyonce give a speech anywhere, anytime. Not a lot of swing voters in swing states at the Texas rally.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Michael Kassin]

Watching Beyonce. Right.

[Jay Shetty]

But that's it. But explain, by the way, for those I never knew this. I was wondering. So you paint this. There's, there's. For those who are wondering, why didn't she go on Joe Rogan? There was a lot of effort the Harris campaign made to try to go on. There was sort of negotiation. There were logistics and there was this sort of anchor event that would lead to conclude that she sincerely wanted to go on the Rogan Show I think.

[Michael Kassin]

She sincerely wanted to go. There was internal debate within the campaign about whether to try for that or not.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Michael Kassin]

And the people who wanted to won out in that debate, but it was. It was not like a. Like a 95. 5 decision. It was like a 5149. But once they committed to it, they committed to it. So much so that they literally put her in Texas in October in the stretch run of the campaign for a rally, you know, and said that it had to do something with abortion rights, you know, like, oh, well, we can do an abortion rights rally anywhere. Texas is a big state. Matters for that. Yeah. Whatever the COVID story was, I actually think that what happened here is that there was some interest on both sides. They had a negotiation and it fell through. And then, you know, there's some. Some finger pointing on both sides, because I think both. I think both sides legitimately had some interest in doing it. And sometimes things fall apart. But. But the fact that they made this entire rally and, you know, to try to get this done when it wasn't already like. Like signed, sealed and delivered is. It's kind of jaw dropping.

[Jay Shetty]

So the Rogan thing plays an outsize and, you know, the idea and the people can go to what happened. Why did she lose? Was it the view, the unwillingness to separate from someone that was difficult to separate from because he didn't want her to separate and she wanted express loyalty? Was it the nature of incumbency? And there's an incumbency penalty of sorts. And you saw that globally, though not exclusively globally, but you saw it in a lot of other countries. Was it inflation? Was it immigration, which obviously played a role in this campaign? Was it interest rates, which people often forget about, car loans and home loans, mortgage rates and the like? But all this time, she wasn't thinking about that. She was confident she was gonna win.

[Amy Parnes]

She goes into election night thinking she's gonna win. Same with Tim Wall. So much so that when they're told they can't believe it, they can't find the words.

[Jay Shetty]

And so you describe that those two scenes of Tim Waltz getting. Getting alerted that they've lost, but also Kamala Harris being told that she's not going to win. They had prepared in every way, shape or form, confident. You got that Iowa poll you highlight, and we all felt it. I felt it.

[Amy Parnes]

Did you think this was a winnable race?

[Jay Shetty]

Yes.

[Amy Parnes]

You did?

[Jay Shetty]

I think it absolutely was a winnable race.

[Amy Parnes]

Even with all those factors.

[Jay Shetty]

With all the factors, the five eyes. I would add Israel into I mean, all those things were, I mean, huge headwinds, unquestionably. But, I mean, there was energy there. You know, I was. You were out on the campaign trail, you felt it. There was, There was something different happening that said, I mean, in hindsight, we can look back and we can make a different argument because we're all experts and geniuses in hindsight. But going into election night, I was 60, 40. She was going to pull it off. I felt the same way they felt. And again, everyone, you know, people on the right watching, just rolling their eyes, laughing that, that I, I'm saying that I'm just being transparent and honest and, and was going to be close, but she was really confident. That sort of marked to 270. And Trump, meanwhile, was reasonably confident. Cautiously, I think, was the. You quoted people saying cautiously, sir.

[Amy Parnes]

He was nervous.

[Jay Shetty]

He was nervous that night.

[Amy Parnes]

He kept.

[Michael Kassin]

Well, he thought he was going to win in 2020. Yeah, right. His team had told him if you hit a certain threshold nationally, right. If you get whatever the number was, 65 million votes nationally, you're president. And he hit that number and he lost. And the reason he hit that number and lost is because the increase in the Democratic number of votes in 2020 from 2016 was like 21%. It was. I mean, the participation rate in 2020 was insane. Everybody's home. They had nothing else to do. They could vote early. You know, states made accommodations for people to vote. And so Trump was, I think this is the part of the reason that he kept going out there and saying that people were cheating. Obviously it benefits him to say that and, and has continued to benefit him. But I think part of the reason is he was looking to explain what didn't make sense to him because he had lost in 2020 and been so shocked. And in this book, readers will, I think, be interested in spending those last few minutes with Kamala Harris. We take you inside her sort of personal quarters in the vice president's residence. Yeah. And what she's kind of concluding that night, and I think, I think it's very powerful, and I don't want to wholly give that away.

[Amy Parnes]

The big bombshell, I think, is that she was gaslit by her own campaign, meaning they, they.

[Jay Shetty]

They gave her no indication otherwise that she was going to get there correct.

[Michael Kassin]

Even though their final tally, their final projection of the race had her losing. And the dream season is now complete.

[Jay Shetty]

The Golden State warriors are the 2015 NBA champions on the new limited podcast series Dub dynasty.

[Michael Kassin]

It's been 10 years since their Shocking.

[Jay Shetty]

Run to a championship. We examine the controversial move that made it possible.

[Michael Kassin]

It's never a great conversation as a player when you hear that you're being.

[Jay Shetty]

Benched for the entire behind the scenes.

[Michael Kassin]

Story of Golden State's incredible 10 year run. Listen to Dub Dimensions on the iHeartRadio.

[Jay Shetty]

App, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Michael Kassin]

I'm Clayton English. I'm Greg Lodd and this is season two of the War on Drugs podcast. We are back in a big way.

[Jay Shetty]

In a very big way.

[Michael Kassin]

Real people, real perspectives. This is kind of star studded a little bit, man. We got Ricky Williams, NFL player, Heisman Trophy winner. It's just a compassionate choice to allow.

[Jay Shetty]

Players all reasonable means to care for themselves.

[Michael Kassin]

Music stars Marcus King, John Osborne from Brothers Osborne.

[Jay Shetty]

We have this misunderstanding of what this.

[Michael Kassin]

Quote unquote drug fans, Benny the Butcher, Brent Smith from Shinedown got. Be real from Cypress Hill, NHL enforcer Riley Cote, Marine Corvette MMA fighter Liz Caramouche. What we're doing now isn't working and.

[Jay Shetty]

We need to change things.

[Michael Kassin]

Stories matter and it brings a face to them. It makes it real.

[Jay Shetty]

It really does. It makes it real.

[Michael Kassin]

Listen to new episodes of the War on Drugs Podcast Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. And to hear episodes one week early and ad free with exclusive content. Subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Jay Shetty]

We ready to fight? I'm ready to fight.

[Michael Kassin]

Is that.

[Jay Shetty]

I thought it was.

[Michael Kassin]

Oh, this is Fighting Words. Okay, I put the hammer back.

[Jay Shetty]

Hi, I'm George M. Johnson, a best.

[Michael Kassin]

Selling author with the second most banned book in America.

[Jay Shetty]

Now more than ever, we need to.

[Amy Parnes]

Use our voices to fight back.

[Michael Kassin]

And that's what we are doing on Fighting Words. We're not gonna let anyone silence us. That's the reason why they're banning books like yours, George. That's the reason why they're trying to.

[Jay Shetty]

Stop the teaching of black history, queer.

[Michael Kassin]

History, any history that challenges the whitewashed.

[Jay Shetty]

Norm or put us in a box. Black people have never ever depended on the so called mainstream to support us.

[Michael Kassin]

That's why we are great.

[Jay Shetty]

We are the greatest culture makers in world history.

[Michael Kassin]

Listen to Fighting words on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Foreign Cassin, founder and CEO of 3C Ventures and your guide on big company. The podcast where I sit down with the boldest innovators shaping what's next. In this episode I'm joined by Anjali.

[Jay Shetty]

Sud, CEO of Tubi for A conversation.

[Michael Kassin]

That'S anything but ordinary. We dive into the competitive world of streaming. How she's turning so called niche into mainstream gold.

[Jay Shetty]

Connecting audiences with stories that truly make them feel seen.

[Michael Kassin]

What others dismiss as niche, we embrace as core. It's this idea that there's so many stories out there and if you can find a way to curate and help the right person discover the right content. The term that we always hear from our audience is that they feel seen.

[Jay Shetty]

Get a front row seat to where.

[Michael Kassin]

Media, marketing, technology, entertainment and sports collide and hear how leaders like Angeli are carving out space and shaking things up a bit in the most crowded of markets. Listen to Good company on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I always had to be so good no one could ignore me. Carve my path with data and drive. But some people only see who I am on paper. The paper ceiling, the limitations from degree screens to stereotypes that are holding back over 70 million stars. Workers skilled through alternative routes rather than a bachelor's degree. It's time for skills to speak for themselves. Find resources for breaking through barriers at tear the paper ceiling.org brought to you by OpportunityAtWork and the Ad Council.

[Jay Shetty]

And so that leads to. To our conclusion, the epilogue. And what's remarkable, the epilogue is how contemporary it is to this moment we're actually sitting in. Which suggests this thing either keeps writing itself or you just quite literally finished this book. The lessons learned, the word gaslighting came up in this book over and over and over again and how the American people may have felt. And I know there's other books being written in this space and how people feel like, you know, I imagine I'm among them, that people were not expressive enough about where Joe Biden was in terms of what was perceived real as it relates to his physical health or cognitive decline. I, of course, never experienced any of that, quite literally. So I would have been lying if I played to that. Except one event which you reference in the book, and that's the fundraiser, the infamous George Clooney fundraiser, where it was clear. And that for me, jet lag was as easy a way to describe that as anything else, but it was clear that something was a little bit off or different. But this notion of gaslighting the campaign from an analytics perspective and in the sense that, and having conversations, particularly we had the vice president or vice presidential nominee, Governor Waltz on this podcast. I mean, you're right, he was absolutely confident that they were going to pull this thing off.

[Amy Parnes]

Yeah, he can't find the words. I mean, we take you inside his hotel room at the Mayflower in Washington, and his wife has to say something because he just. He went in so confident about their ability and their fact that they were going to win. Can't believe it. But I think there is a bigger discussion happening right now about.

[Jay Shetty]

So there. Yeah, that's the epilogue. You talk about that. What are the lessons learned and what do you. I mean, as this is independent, you know, look, you have insight. That's next level. I mean, I feel like you're two psychologists or something. You know more about us than we know about ourselves. You certainly know everyone's opinion about ourselves, which I can't even handle. That's a minute I actually have to go to therapy for all of. That's why you every.

[Michael Kassin]

It's a good thing we cut the Newsom chapter.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah. I'm glad my name's barely mentioned. So it's. Thank you, by the way, for that. Otherwise I wouldn't have you on.

[Michael Kassin]

I couldn't.

[Jay Shetty]

But. But what are the lessons learned? I mean, honestly, when you look at this, do you. I mean, the Democratic Party right now. I've had strong opinions about where I think our party is right now in terms of just truth and trust, this sense that we weren't being truthful, that that's a perception that we were. That we were gaslighting the American people. They don't trust us on issues and policies and the ability to deliver. And if you're not winning on truth and trust, that's a brand that, as I've said, and I've gotten a lot of blowback for it, is a bit toxic at the moment. At the moment. But what do you think this moment represents? And do you think it's important for folks like me that are current public servants that represent portions of the Democratic Party to really take this book and read it and reread it and take what lessons from it?

[Amy Parnes]

Yeah. I mean, we write these books for people to gain knowledge about what happened, but it's also a playbook about going forward and what Democrats and Republicans can learn. And one of the things I think they think is that, I mean, first of all, there needs to be some accountability. Right. Like someone, either President Biden or someone close to him, has to come out and say, look, this is what happened, because the Democratic Party can't move forward until people address what has actually happened. And voters, to your point, don't trust the Democratic Party right now. I mean, I think a lot of people think that The Republican Party, obviously, is. Is gaslighting the American people right now, too. But let's have a discussion about what happened in this past election, and then there needs to be some accountability on where the party goes from here and speaking to voters and actually connecting to voters. So many of these people who've supported Trump used to be traditional Democrats.

[Jay Shetty]

I know.

[Amy Parnes]

And yet they lost their way.

[Jay Shetty]

Look, I think it's fundamentally one of the reasons I'm doing this podcast is that I'm concerned that we're taking the wrong lessons or not even absorbing any lesson from these elections, including, by the way, just the anomaly that was a Covid election. It's one thing to take away the wrong lessons in a midterm. It's another to look at these general elections and not necessarily absorb a deeper understanding of what played an outsized role and what didn't, structurally and organizationally.

[Michael Kassin]

So that's episode two of this podcast. We'll talk about our 2020 book, Lucky that that was largely ignored. That did not sell as well as this one has, which is the point.

[Jay Shetty]

You were making, that it was a lucky outcome.

[Michael Kassin]

Right. There was a. There was a pandemic in the middle of that election, and the President of the United States went out, President Trump to a podium and said things that were untrue, that were wild, that underestimated the physical, you know, the. The psychological and physical toll of the disease and undermined himself a lot, while Joe Biden was the way Republicans would say is hiding in his basement, but largely was off the campaign trail. Right. And then he wins that election by a very narrow margin. And I think the Democratic response to it was, we crushed Trump. He's gone. And the Trump response was, they barely beat me, and I'm coming back. And so, you know, I think that when you say that Democrats have lost trust, it's not just that they've lost the trust of Republicans and independents. If you look at the polling, they've lost the trust of a lot of Democrats, too. Yeah. And the first thing for any party is to kind of rebuild its trust among its own and then sort of branch out. And, I mean, I'm curious to see what the 2028 candidates do, and maybe you'll shed some light on this or. Or know some people who might, what they're going to do to modernize the Democratic argument for what the country should look like five years from now, ten years from now. What are you doing with entitlement programs? What are you doing with taxation? What are the new technologies and how do they affect us? You know, we haven't seen that yet.

[Jay Shetty]

No, we haven't. And we, we. I think what Ezra Klein did, we, you know, his book Abundance. Interesting sort of, you know, it was, it's very self. It's a very. Not self critical, but it is a very critical look. Look at sort of progressive governance and accountability that also needs to be, you know, well laid at the hands of all of us in, in these quote unquote blue states and the ability to deliver big things in. In a way that's timely and efficient. Look, this book is timely, a remarkably efficient use of 263 plus pages. It is a great read and I encourage anyone, whether you like politics, don't like politics, but you're just interested or want to know what world we're living in in the context of the political life and leanings. This is a must read. Fight. Amy, thank you for being here.

[Amy Parnes]

Wait, we have one question for you.

[Jay Shetty]

I refuse to answer. What is it?

[Amy Parnes]

What, what lesson would you take away from this election?

[Jay Shetty]

No, I mean, I think the lesson is we need to have frank and honest conversations and there's no space for that. And so I have a tactical point.

[Michael Kassin]

This is based on.

[Jay Shetty]

But I, you know, look, I. One of the things that, you know, just. Are we done?

[Amy Parnes]

We're not done.

[Michael Kassin]

We're not done.

[Amy Parnes]

People want to hear from you on.

[Jay Shetty]

This, but I thought. I hosted the Democratic Governors association for our winter event in Los Angeles. Not an indictment. These are amazing governors. It's a great organization and it's played an outside role, saving me in my recall campaign. I was so eager to have this conversation. What the hell just happened? The entire three days was fundraising and all of us as governors sort of desperate to find time to start to have an honest, reflective conversation. And you have some of those 28 candidates in that mix. You had Bashir there, you had Pritzker there, you have Whitmer there, you. By the way, there's five or six others likely to run and all of them had their own unique experience on the road and stress tested messages, heard that feedback. We have not had that conversation. I was so pleased to have Tim here and he was the only exception, unsurprisingly because he could regale us to a little bit of the inside of being out on the campaign trail and what it was like and how exhilarating it was for him, which I also love too, that he loved being out there. That was, that was absorbing. I think to all of us. There's a joy and he felt that joy and that energy. And I think that was the disconnect. And so understanding that and minding that gap between performance and perception, where we are and where we're going, where the American people are and where we are as a party. What is our party? Who is our. Who are our leaders? You describe Obama, Clinton, is it Pelosi? Is it Schumer? Is it Jeffries? Who Is there a part? Is it the dnc? Is it Martin? All of that we need to work our way through.

[Amy Parnes]

Thank you.

[Jay Shetty]

Hey, I'm Jay Shetty and my latest interview is with Michelle Obama, to whom much is given, much is expected. The guilt comes from, am I doing enough me, Michelle Obama, to say that to a therapist? So let's unpack that. Having been the first lady of the entire country and representing the country in the world, I couldn't afford to have that kind of disdain. Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. The biggest stars in country music will be taking the stage at our 2025 I Heart Country Festival presented by Capital One.

[Michael Kassin]

Ladies and gentlemen, Brooks and Dunn Thomas Red, Rascal Flats, Cole Swindell, Sam Hunt.

[Jay Shetty]

Megan Maroney, Bailey Zimmerman, Nate smith. Special guest Dasha Country Festival stream only on Hulu Saturday, May 3, starting at 8pm Eastern, 5 Pacific.

[Michael Kassin]

I'm Michael Casson, founder and CEO of 3C Ventures and your guide on Good Company, the podcast where I sit down with the boldest innovators shaping what's next. In this episode, I'm joined by Angelique.

[Jay Shetty]

Sud, CEO of Tubi.

[Michael Kassin]

We dive into the competitive world of streaming. What others dismiss as niche, we embrace as core. There's so many stories out there and if you can find a way to curate and help the right person discover the right content. The term that we always hear from our audience is that they feel seen. Listen to Good company on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jay Shetty]

I'm ready to fight.

[Michael Kassin]

Oh, this is Fighting Words. Okay, I'll put the hammer back.

[Jay Shetty]

Hi, I'm George M. Johnson, a best.

[Michael Kassin]

Selling author with the second most banned book in America. Now more than ever, we need to.

[Amy Parnes]

Use our voices to fight back.

[Jay Shetty]

Part of the power of black queer.

[Michael Kassin]

Creativity is the fact that we got up us.

[Jay Shetty]

You know, we are the greatest culture makers in world history.

[Michael Kassin]

Listen to Fighting words on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. The number one hit podcast, the Girlfriends is back with something new. The Girlfriend Spotlight, where each week you'll hear women share their stories of of triumph over adversity. You'll meet Luann, who escaped a secretive religious community. Do I want my freedom or do I want my family? And now helps other women get out, too. I loved my girls. I still love my girls.

[Jay Shetty]

Come and join our girl gang.

[Michael Kassin]

Listen to the Girlfriend Spotlight on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.