And, This Is How The Media Is Failing Us In 2026 With Alex Wagner

Summary

Podcast Summary: This is Gavin Newsom – "And, This Is How The Media Is Failing Us In 2026"

Host: Gavin Newsom
Guest: Alex Wagner
Date: January 9, 2026
Podcast: iHeartPodcasts
Episode Theme: A candid, often humorous deep-dive into the failures and evolution of American media in 2026, the shifting landscape of news, and its impacts on democracy and society. The discussion touches on institutional decay, disinformation, the rise of podcasting, political polarization, immigration, joy in politics, and the urgent need for human connection.

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Episode Overview

In this frank and freewheeling conversation, California Governor Gavin Newsom invites journalist, podcaster, and author Alex Wagner to dissect why legacy and institutional media is struggling, what new models are emerging, and how the fundamental nature of news, politics, and public discourse is being reshaped in America as the nation approaches the 2026 elections. Throughout, both highlight their personal journeys and digress into everything from Joy in politics to immigration, parental advice, cold plunges, and the search for optimism in uncertain times.

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Major Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Failing Structure of Legacy Media (10:00–16:00)

• Alex Wagner (paraphrased): Legacy media’s structure is driven by profit, ratings, and advertisers. With audiences aging out, it’s losing both relevance and rigor.
• Quote:
  • “The structure of the news is a profit making enterprise...once you're chasing the money, then the stories you cover are the ones that get the most eyeballs, not the most important stories.” (15:43 – Alex Wagner)
• Transition to subscription models as advertisers lose interest in older demographics, leading to desperation for audience attention (“anti slip bath mats” for seniors as main cable news ads).
• She laments the shift from a news-gathering, fact-checking culture (which required huge, rigorous teams at CBS/MSNBC), to a “leaner, meaner” podcasting world, which lacks deep infrastructure for original reporting.

2. Newsroom Dynamics and Editorial Independence (20:00–23:46)

• Newsom prods about Fox News-like top-down editorial control at MSNBC.
• Wagner refutes the parallel:
  • “Fox News peddles lies...At MSNBC, each show was its own fiefdom, you were under enormous pressure for ratings, but we had a lot of leeway.” (21:18-21:48)
• Pressure to chase ratings means “important stories” often get dropped if they fail to hold audience attention.
• Quote:
  • “Sometimes the stories that fail with an audience are actually really important stories to fucking tell.” (21:56 – Alex Wagner)

3. Media, Money, and the Erosion of Trust (15:30–19:59)

• There’s tension between the need for institutional rigor and the pressures of consolidation and profit.
• Wagner: “We're not really reporting anymore...Part of the reason Trump hit like a freight train in 2016 is because nobody was fucking out there [on the road].” (16:27)
• Desire for institutional trust, but also recognizing how media’s business priorities have contributed to public distrust.

4. Rise of Podcasting and New Information Ecosystems (25:15–30:00, 45:26–46:46)

• Wagner describes her transition from cable to podcasting (Crooked Media's "Runaway Country") and the freedom it brings (longform, authentic, cursing allowed).
• Podcasting as liberation: More authentic, longer-form, person-centered storytelling, and the ability to chase “the humanity in headlines.”
• However, concerns about rigor and scale: “Are podcasts going to have the same impact and standards for fact checking?” (46:34 – Alex Wagner)
• Glad to be a “housecat in the wild” but skeptical new podcast-driven landscape will solve misinformation (“We need some agreed upon pillars of truth.” – 46:46).

5. Institutional Independence & Political Pressure (11:06–14:27)

• Wagner criticizes CBS’s new leadership for “dog whistle” rhetoric attacking elites and academics, worrying this compromises journalistic rigor.
  • Quote:
    • “The idea that we've been listening to academics and elites is not what's poisoning our culture... what's poisoning our culture is that people aren't listening to people with scientific and nuanced understanding... we're just shooting from the hip.” (12:06-13:14 – Alex Wagner)
• Points to the spiking/delay of critical news stories at the behest of new executives, possibly due to political/White House pressure (the 60 Minutes immigration exposé).

6. Storytelling, Humanity & Breaking Through the Noise (25:59–31:39)

• Wagner’s podcast focuses on individual stories and lived experience to reconnect audiences with issues like immigration, healthcare, and national policy.
  • “You gotta start with a heart... the only way of making things tangible and resonant for people is to give you some kind of story of a person who is at the center of that headline.” (27:02 – Alex Wagner)
• Both hosts discuss the challenge of audience overload and “nihilism,” but insist there’s still a hunger for connection.

7. The MAGA Movement: Community & Dangerous Solidarity (32:32–38:01)

• Wagner and Newsom agree that the appeal and staying-power of MAGA is rooted in community, validation, and joy at the rallies—often at the expense of scapegoated groups.
  • “People are looking for communion, people are looking for community. And Trump gave them that.” (35:13 – Alex Wagner)
  • Newsom draws parallels with the decline of other voluntary institutions like churches and rotary clubs.
• Lesson for Democrats: Bring back joy and humor into politics; stop being so “humorless,” and take risks in communication.
  • “You can’t be everything to everyone. Part of humor is it’s designed to offend. Sometimes you have to accept that.” (39:28 – Alex Wagner)

8. Key Issues for 2026: Healthcare, Immigration, Climate (59:02–67:34)

• Healthcare: Wagner highlights skyrocketing premiums for millions as a “moral statement” of national priorities.
  • “What they are doing to...people is not just can you afford it...it's who can afford what and who deserves to live in this country.” (59:40 – Alex Wagner)
• Immigration: America is defined by immigrants—removing “all the brown ones is not going to leave us with much of a country.” (62:40)
• Climate: The biggest crisis, yet largely absent from mainstream coverage. Disconnect between daily hardship (utility bills, insurance) and policy debates.
  • “The first thing you have to do is reintroduce it into the conversation because it's gone.” (68:13 – Alex Wagner)

9. Alienation, Social Media, AI, & Loneliness (72:29–79:45)

• Both discuss how social and legacy media, AI, and digital life are driving alienation, envy, passivity, and loneliness, especially in youth.
• Wagner bluntly states:
  • “We’ve lost each other because of social media. Someone asked if I could get rid of the internet, would I? Fucking 100%. The internet, period. Gone.” (75:26 – Alex Wagner)
• Solution: Rebuild community through in-person connection, physical activity, and authenticity.
• (“We as human beings need to go out for cocktails, have more sex and do things with other human bodies.” – 1:16:19)

10. Optimism, Agency, and What Comes Next (81:32–88:22)

• Despite the bleakness, Wagner insists on active hope:
  • “We're so lucky to be alive when the stakes are so high and to have put ourselves in positions where we can actually try and change the map path.” (81:32)
• Politics is a gift—everyone has agency.
  • “You can go through it numb, or you can open yourself up to the elements and surrender to the times in which you were born and, like, fight like hell.” (82:23)
• Election predictions: cautious optimism about Democrats taking back the House. The need for a real, affirmative vision, not just opposition.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the Problem With News Business Models

“The stories that get the most eyeballs are not the most important stories.” (15:43 – Alex Wagner)

On Loss of Institutional Rigor

“You can have a thriving podcast, but are they going to have the same standards for fact checking? It’s not the same thing.” (46:34 – Alex Wagner)

On the Energy of Trump’s Base

“There was so much joy...the sense of belonging and the genuine warmth...is highly intoxicating.” (36:49 – Alex Wagner)

On Joy in Politics

“Democrats need to bring joy back... you’re not going to be very fucking funny if you’re not offending someone.” (39:38 – Alex Wagner)

On Immigration

“America is immigrants... To be purging the country of all the brown ones is not going to leave us with much of a country.” (62:40 – Alex Wagner)

On Media and Technology’s Impact

“We’ve lost each other because of social media... If you could get rid of the internet, would you? Fucking 100%.” (75:26 – Alex Wagner)

On Hope and Agency

“You can go through it numb, or you can open yourself up to the elements and surrender to the times in which you were born and, like, fight like hell.” (82:23 – Alex Wagner)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00–05:00: Introductions, light banter, cold plunges, and wellness routines.
• 10:00–16:00: The profit-driven structure of legacy/news media.
• 20:00–24:00: Pressures and editorial dynamics at MSNBC/MS Now vs. Fox News.
• 25:15–31:39: Podcasting as a new model for deep storytelling and breaking through political ‘noise’.
• 32:32–38:01: The emotional and communal dimension of the MAGA movement; lessons for Democrats.
• 59:02–67:34: Key issues for 2026 — healthcare, immigration, climate, economic cruelty.
• 72:29–79:45: Alienation, loneliness, digital fatigue, AI, and the search for real human connection.
• 81:32–88:22: Optimism, hope, sense of agency, and predictions for the coming year.

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Tone & Style

• Conversational, candid, and irreverent—plenty of cursing, personal digressions, and humor.
• Both speakers unafraid to self-deprecate or break ‘journalistic’ codes, prioritizing honesty and connection.

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Final Takeaways

• The media is in crisis, caught between collapsing old models and a chaotic new landscape with less rigor.
• Political solidarity and community are powerful, even when wielded for exclusion. Democrats must reclaim joy, humor, and clear vision.
• Podcasting offers hope for storytelling and engagement, but rigor and shared truth standards must be preserved.
• The big stories—healthcare, immigration, climate—remain under-covered and require re-centering on human impact.
• Despite the chaos, both Newsom and Wagner find reasons for optimism—reminding listeners that agency and connection are always possible, even in bleak times.

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This summary skips advertisements, intros, and non-content sections, focusing on the substance, spirit, and memorable moments of the conversation. For those who haven’t listened, it captures both the critique and hope that define the episode.

Transcript

[Alex Wagner]

First off, let me just disabuse you of the parallel you are trying to draw between Fox News and Ms. Now Fox News peddles lies. This movement has captured the imagination of the American public in a way that has awoken our darkest evolutionary instincts. America is immigrants.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yes.

[Alex Wagner]

To be purging the country of all the brown ones is not going to leave us with much of a country. We as human beings need to go out for cocktails and have more sex and do things with other human bodies. This is Gavin News, and this is Alex Wagner. This is an iHeart podcast, Guaranteed Human. Shop the Sherwin Williams winter sale and get 30% off paints and stains January 9th through the 19th. Whether you're refreshing your interior or exterior, we've got the colors to bring your vision to life. And with delivery, getting everything to your door is easier than ever. Shop online or visit your neighborhood Sherwin Williams store. Click the banner to learn more. Retail sales, only some exclusions apply. See Store for details. Delivery available on qualifying orders.

[Jorge Ramos]

Hola, I'm Jorge Ramos. This week on the Moment, we take a look at Venezuela's uncertain future in a conversation with two people who have directly advised US Presidents Juan Gonzalez during the Obama and Biden administrations.

[Gavin Newsom]

We're really good at invading countries. We're very bad at nation building in.

[Jorge Ramos]

Carlos de Rosillo during Trump's two terms.

[Gavin Newsom]

I can guarantee you that nobody in.

[Jorge Ramos]

The Trump administration likes Del C. Rodriguez. Listen to the Moment with Jorge Ramos and Paola ramos on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Gavin Newsom]

How many. Was it four podcasts you had now or something? How many damn podcasts?

[Alex Wagner]

I have one podcast that I'm very focused on called Runaway Country.

[Gavin Newsom]

I'm glad you're focused.

[Alex Wagner]

I am. I'm. I occasionally dip in with the boys at Pod Save America. And then, you know, I do Friends podcast. I did Stacey Abrams podcast. I got an invite to come to the mansion to sit and be, you know, help inaugurate this beautiful studio with perfect lighting.

[Gavin Newsom]

Inaugurate.

[Alex Wagner]

I, you know, have ticket will go is what I'm saying. I love a podcast.

[Gavin Newsom]

You love a podcast.

[Alex Wagner]

I do love a podcast.

[Gavin Newsom]

And what you had just done with cable. Cable.

[Alex Wagner]

So yesterday, no gov. No, I am still. I am still a senior political analyst for Ms. Now, which you may remember from its earlier heyday as msnbc.

[Gavin Newsom]

I'm gonna get to that in a moment.

[Alex Wagner]

Oh, good.

[Gavin Newsom]

Get to the whole MSNBC versus Ms. Now because I'm still struggling with it. But that's good. To hear. But so. But you're still doing that.

[Alex Wagner]

I'm still doing that. And then I have a substack called how the Hell with Alex Wagner. And then I also have a book coming out this year that I can't talk about until I'm allowed to.

[Gavin Newsom]

But from my how many books have you written?

[Alex Wagner]

This is my second ill fated attempt at writing a book.

[Gavin Newsom]

You did one about Future Face.

[Alex Wagner]

Future Face, which is a story about identity and how we sort of decide and tell ourselves who is American and who isn't. And it's largely autobiographical, so it's insanely boring.

[Gavin Newsom]

I appreciate you saying that for different reasons because I'm coming out with my own book and I'm concerned about similar fate somehow.

[Alex Wagner]

You're maybe of slightly more interest to the American.

[Gavin Newsom]

I don't know about that. But we're going to talk about you because I think your background is this.

[Alex Wagner]

Makes me very uncomfortable to talk mostly about myself.

[Gavin Newsom]

I notice your physiology has changed.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah. I'm grabbing my neck until your arms are crossed. Yeah. Okay.

[Gavin Newsom]

Just deep breaths. Slowly in, slowly out.

[Alex Wagner]

Is that your recommendation?

[Gavin Newsom]

That's it. It's Wim Hof. I do Wim Hof briefly. You do any breathing? Do you do the cold 2020 literally on New Year's Day up there and. And Olympic Valley we call it now Squaw Valley used to be called, but now it's Olympic Valley. Did a hike and just jump right in the river. Icicles, the whole thing. That was my New Year's Day.

[Alex Wagner]

That's beautiful.

[Gavin Newsom]

It was. And I did a lot of breathing. Heavy breathing in the water because it was slightly cold.

[Alex Wagner]

Would be proud of you.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yes.

[Alex Wagner]

But cold water on New Year's Day, Gov, I got to say, is not the most original thing. There's like an entire polar player plunge that happens.

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, it goes back almost a few thousand years prior to that too. I think Seneca did it on an.

[Alex Wagner]

Do you do cold plunges?

[Gavin Newsom]

Other than I do, I sadly have. How often do you do them?

[Alex Wagner]

I was doing them three times a week when I was really good. I just got a cold plunge.

[Gavin Newsom]

What? What? What?

[Alex Wagner]

At what temperature? Interesting you should ask because they've been reading more signs that women actually need it at a slightly higher temperature. Like once I was doing it needed.

[Gavin Newsom]

At the higher temperature. You were forced to raise that it okay. I mean you could handle it.

[Alex Wagner]

But we agreed we weren't going to be misogynists on this podcast. But you the panic response that sets in for women is at a higher Is it a is a therapist. We have a higher. Less. A lesser degree of tolerance for the pain, in part because the. The pain, I should say of cold, not pain in general. Where we are warriors.

[Gavin Newsom]

That's right.

[Alex Wagner]

Our body kicks into a much more protective mode quicker because we're responsible for the propagation of human life.

[Gavin Newsom]

Still haven't told us.

[Alex Wagner]

Anyway, 53.

[Gavin Newsom]

53 is not even. That's.

[Alex Wagner]

That's.

[Gavin Newsom]

Are you kidding? That's like the springs in the summer.

[Alex Wagner]

That's cold. And for 12. For 12 minutes.

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, that's. That's. No one suggests 12 minutes. That's actually.

[Alex Wagner]

I suggest 12.

[Gavin Newsom]

No, that's not. That's.

[Alex Wagner]

I was doing 48. 40. That's not a bad. What do you mean?

[Gavin Newsom]

At 12 minutes? It's supposed to be two to three minutes, tops.

[Alex Wagner]

Oh, well, then that's why you're jumping.

[Gavin Newsom]

In and jumping out and jumping out.

[Alex Wagner]

Two minutes, you get nothing done.

[Gavin Newsom]

I think I'm. I think it's a 412 somewhere.

[Alex Wagner]

This is gonna be.

[Gavin Newsom]

Not 30s. I try the 30s, I admit. Couldn't do it.

[Alex Wagner]

Like, could not be the source of your great humiliation on the Internet. The fact that you only plunge for two to three minutes.

[Gavin Newsom]

But anyway, three minutes. It's actually three full three. Yeah.

[Alex Wagner]

Honestly, at what?

[Gavin Newsom]

At 412 degrees.

[Alex Wagner]

Oh, and now the. And the number seems to be. Is it.

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, no, because it fluctuates. It's a year and a half old. It's an older unit.

[Alex Wagner]

It's an older unit.

[Gavin Newsom]

But I will say there was something more. It was much more wonderful to be in nature.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah.

[Gavin Newsom]

And to be there. I mean, a little waterfall was Right. You know, Central Castle. Beautiful.

[Alex Wagner]

Sounds like a.

[Gavin Newsom]

It was not so beautiful. On my toes.

[Alex Wagner]

You made it, though. Here you are.

[Gavin Newsom]

I am here. And yes. At a hospital. And, you know, I'm done. I still. There's nine left, so I'm fine.

[Alex Wagner]

What's in. That's why you have extras.

[Gavin Newsom]

Exactly. Right. No, so let's talk about. I mean, speaking of extras, you have so many extra gigs now. That's the thing that I'm trying to mind here. You've got Sub stack. You've got. I mean, you did what, two MSNBC shows, right? Alex Wagner now.

[Alex Wagner]

Yes, I did. Now with. Alex Wagner now with.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yes.

[Alex Wagner]

Order.

[Gavin Newsom]

That was the. That was. When did you start that?

[Alex Wagner]

That was 2011.

[Gavin Newsom]

Wow. 2011.

[Alex Wagner]

And then that was at noon, and then it was at 4, and then it was not on the air at MSNBC. And then I was at CBS in the Atlantic and Showtime for A while.

[Gavin Newsom]

Circus.

[Alex Wagner]

The circus. And then I was called back to duty at MSNBC in 2022. The years just melt by. And that's when I was hosting the 9pm hour from Tuesday through Friday until I was not hosting the 9pm hour.

[Gavin Newsom]

And you did that for how long?

[Alex Wagner]

Three years.

[Gavin Newsom]

Three. That was three years. Wow.

[Alex Wagner]

Lots of years.

[Gavin Newsom]

And how. I'm. I'm curious because I do want to get back, because I. I am more interested in your early days in D.C. but. But this idea of four days, I mean, it's almost an impossible gig right after Rachel on Monday, and then somehow you take the baton on a Tuesday to Friday.

[Alex Wagner]

Initially, I thought, this is going to be insane. Here's what I will say about that period of my life. Rachel is an extraordinary person to work with in her, in terms of her generosity and her, like, spirit and her tenacity and her brilliance, and really tried to help make that transition as easily as possible. But, like, Rachel Maddow is Rachel fucking Maddow.

[Gavin Newsom]

That's it.

[Alex Wagner]

And the realities of cable are such that people are very hardcore about the folks they watch. There's a deep intimacy and trust that goes along with it. And, you know, it's hard to. It's hard for anybody to take that baton, fill those shoes. And I think especially now when if people don't see the people, they've always seen the person that they've invited into their living room for, you know, however many years, they're really kind of not interested in the next flavor. I think that's like a challenge generally. And the audience is getting older, you know, and so once you lose those faces and those eyeballs and those hearts, it's hard to replace it with a different generation. And that's kind of. Kind of the conundrum of linear cable right now.

[Gavin Newsom]

What's going. What is the average. I mean, do you. Do you recall specifically, miss what, 70s somewhere? Come on. Not that. Is it that old? That's interesting.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah.

[Gavin Newsom]

And I think it goes then to the, you know, then what you're. I mean, it goes to precisely then what you're doing. And the audiences now you're reaching, which are wildly different. I mean, the average age. What are your audience?

[Alex Wagner]

Oh, on crooked media. I don't actually know. I shouldn't answer this question, but it's considerably younger. I mean, we have lots of people in the demographic. That's good. I mean, it's great. I will say I have, like. I get a little bit nostalgic and sad about the fact that more people don't crave institutional media the way that they used to. Because I think there is a value of having an, like a news outlet with, I don't know, news gathering team, people that are breaking the stories and doing reporting and like, analysis generally is good, but your resources are way more limited in like a podcasting network than they would have been at a place like msnbc.

[Gavin Newsom]

Give me an example. On Tuesday, you'd prepare. Over the weekend or a Monday, you had how many staff for your show?

[Alex Wagner]

Oh, my God, like 25. But then, then it all then actually physically making the show the floor director and the people in the control room, it's like probably close to 100. I mean, bonkers. Which, like, maybe we could have streamlined that a little bit, but there's so many balls that you're juggling and it's. Whether it's the graphics department or cutting tape or making sure the facts are actually correct, it's a massive operation.

[Gavin Newsom]

And compare that now, now it's just.

[Alex Wagner]

Like, you know, it's five is five. Now. I will say they're awesome. They're totally fucking incredible. It's great to be in the vanguard of where information and news is going, but I do think something's lost by sort of just giving up on the infrastructure of like, institutional media. I'm not to say that's not to say that legacy media hasn't failed the public in a lot of ways, but there should be rigor, there should be depth. There should be a real sort of machine behind what we're doing. Because to report the facts and to do them honestly and accurately requires manpower, woman, power, whatever. Power. And like, that's just not quite the same thing as a podcast, though. I love just talking and cursing.

[Gavin Newsom]

I mean, you should say the word.

[Alex Wagner]

So many times on a podcast, you're expected to. Oh, my God, I love it.

[Gavin Newsom]

What? So this whole thing about legacy media, it's interesting, you just, you know, you just. Because I know it's, it's, it, it's, you know, it seems a 9010 to say legacy manias failed us. And there's sort of an acceptance of that. In what way, though, do you believe legacy?

[Alex Wagner]

Well, I'm not Tony de Coppol. I'm not going to tell you here.

[Gavin Newsom]

That, like, what would you make of that? That was interesting.

[Alex Wagner]

Listen, Katie Tur is a friend of mine. I know Tony from our work and.

[Gavin Newsom]

Tony, just for folks that are listening in, is now the new head of cbs.

[Alex Wagner]

He's the face of CBS Evening.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah. And had a very pointed statement when.

[Alex Wagner]

He started said, we've been listening too much to academics and elites, among other things. I think if the issue is not listening, listening too much to academics.

[Gavin Newsom]

The reason you reference Katie Turner is that Tony.

[Alex Wagner]

She is Marri. She's a wonderful person.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yes. And I think Tony is as well. I've gotten to know him a little bit.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, I was disappointed by what he said.

[Gavin Newsom]

Interesting, because I imagine a lot of.

[Alex Wagner]

You were when you say the words Hunter Biden's laptop and Hillary Clinton's emails. And we've listened too much to academics and elites. Like, there may be a lot of other words around there, but those are dog whistles of a very specific sort. And a moment when CBS needs to prove to the American public that it still has integrity. And to me, that's a huge, huge red flag that the newly installed head of the evening News, the man who, who sits in Cronkite's chair, is out there sending dog whistles to a public that. First of all, I don't think they're ever going to. I mean, just from a business standpoint, I'm not sure MAGA is going to flock to CBS Evening News. But, like, the idea that we've been listening to academics and elites is not what's poisoning our culture. The thing that's poisoning our culture is that people aren't listening to people with scientific information and deep understanding and nuanced understanding of the issues. We're just shooting from the hip. We're just fucking going with our gut. And, like, this is a time to ruminate and to think more deeply and to be more empathetic and not to just be like, what do you think, Joe Schmoo? Like, I am someone who loves doing field reporting. I think it's essential to the work of journalism and democracy. But to I say that the people who know issues well should be somehow marginalized or silenced or not listened to is. Is not what's wrong with society right now, you know, and, like, we can put Covid in its own bucket, but generally speaking, like, my God, on climate, I wish we listened to more academics and elites, you know, I don't know. I thought it was very problematic. I used to work at CBS News, and I remember doing pieces for the evening news and the rigor that that required. And, like, it was terrifying to do pieces for the evening news because it was like, you better have your fucking T's crossed and your eyes dotted. And to say nothing of 60 Minutes where we weren't even let in the building. Like, the ripraff out like you guys stay over there. On the news side. We are 60 minutes.

[Gavin Newsom]

I imagine things didn't sit well with you. What happened in 60 minutes with that report that was delayed was not delayed in other, other markets, I mean places like Canada and elsewhere.

[Alex Wagner]

It was shown in countries, the full fledged democracies as opposed to this one.

[Gavin Newsom]

I mean, was that it? Was that a gut punch from your perspective? Well, last minute decision.

[Alex Wagner]

So for people who have not followed this story, Barry Weiss, the newly installed editor in chief, a non existent role like two years ago spiked. She delayed a story that Sharon Alphonsi, a notoriously rigorous reporter over at CBS had put together about seacot and the prisons that we are deporting migrants to and the brutality of those conditions. And at the last minute, Bari Weiss said we're not going to run it. And she said it's not ready yet. And as the reporting came out became clear that part of the reason the piece wasn't ready is because the White House hadn't weighed in enough.

[Gavin Newsom]

Right.

[Alex Wagner]

As anyone who has ever tried to get comment from the White House knows, the White House like never responds to anything. And if the White House not responding to something is a reason to kill a story, then there's going to be no more news.

[Gavin Newsom]

They will have a veto.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah. And if we are now trying to put the White House in charge of greenlighting national news stories on programs like CBS Evening News, that means the fourth Estate is on life support. So a lot of super, super distressing. It still didn't run. Still hasn't run. I think from what I know. In the U.S. in the U.S. yeah. But if you want to go to Canada and watch it, you match again.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah. Which is just that that alone is sort of, that's deeply remarkable that it was still able to go forward fully edited without the additional edits that have been demanded.

[Alex Wagner]

I guess Canada doesn't have the same requirements.

[Gavin Newsom]

So you say all this, but the same time you remarked that legacy media you had your own not flippant remark, but you made the statement that the legacy media is, you know, deserves a fate of at least some critique.

[Alex Wagner]

Oh yeah.

[Gavin Newsom]

At the same time. In what way though? I mean in not the way that again is expressed necessarily by how you're feeling. Barry Weiss and this sort of culture now of CBS is reflecting it. But in what way did the legacy media let us down?

[Alex Wagner]

Well, listen, I think not to sound like some weird like Marxist who got her show canceled, but the structure of the news is a profit making enterprise and you know There are very real demands about ratings and advertisers, not less and less advertisers, but, you know, cable subscriptions and money is at the essence of the structure of news. And that's problematic because once you're chasing the money, then the stories that you cover are gonna be the ones that get the most eyeballs, right? And the stories that get the most eyeballs are not the most important stories. And there's an enormous amount of pressure to cover stories relentlessly that, you know, the public is going to just be interested in because they're salacious or controversial or whatever. And that's a big fucking problem. It is at the cost of other stories that really matter. And it is at the cost of, I think, even having voices out there that would shed light on things. You know, I, I, I think what we've become is like kind of like these little mini, like, analysis factories, and we're not really reporting anymore. We're not covering stories just because, I mean, they sent me out on the road for 100 days, from the first 100 days to Trumpland, to Trumpland, which was a podcast I did for msnbc. And it was like this novel idea of sending me out on the road. And it's like, I get that it's expensive to go on the road, right? But there's enough money to send people out and have them actually report and to be in the world. Part of the reason Trump hit like a freight train in 2016 is because nobody was fucking out there. And I know there's a lot of hue and cry about, like, we overly pay attention to red state America and the plight of, like, white working class, but, like, this is our country, and the, the plight of certain groups of people dictates in large part the course of political events. And to put blinders onto that and to say, forsake entire subgroups of people or be incurious about what makes them tick is at our own peril, you know, And I think there's just, I don't want to say laziness, but we're cutting a lot of corners in institutional media. And I think in part that's why you see this huge gulf between what's happening in the country and what's being covered on the news. And that feels like a fail to the people all over the country.

[Gavin Newsom]

It was interesting you said that less focus on advertising, more on subscriptions.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, cable subscriptions.

[Gavin Newsom]

So is it, was that a trend? Did you start seeing that transition? Is that a recent transition in sort of a consciousness? I Mean, it seems to me that there's sort of the business model in the past was just the traditional ad package. Did that shift? Is that a decade, two decades ago? Or is it year two? Or is it the nature of the consolidation of the media generally? When did you start to see that begin to shift?

[Alex Wagner]

Well, I'm no Jim Rutenberg or Ben Smith, I'm not a media expert or Brian Stelzer, but essentially, once you have an audience that's ages out of the advertising demographic, advertisers are less interested in advertising. Right. And so you're making, I mean, if you watch the ads on cable news, it's like anti slip bath mats and shower stalls with guardrails. Listen, I have an aging mom. I'm very interested in that, that, that those consumable, those, those, those have difficulty.

[Gavin Newsom]

Getting in my cold plunge. So I'm some humility here.

[Alex Wagner]

Wim hof is the 12 minutes.

[Gavin Newsom]

I still can't take 12 minutes. We're going to get back to that in a minute. It is not health. I need some basically looking.

[Alex Wagner]

You're looking at a cold body of water and being like, who cold? You dip a toe and then you're out. Anyway, so. So once you don't have those advertising dollars, you become ever more reliant on carriage fees and cable subscriptions and people are cutting the court, you know, which is why your average audience age is like somewhere in their 70s potentially. But then you're real reliant on what gets eyeballs and what people are interested in. And something like, Jeffrey Epstein is a great example of a story that absolutely matters. Right? Absolutely matters, should and deserves coverage, but at the expense of literally everything else. I don't know. And the way in which it's covered is all about Trump and what could be in the files rather than what happened to these fucking women and what they suffered. I mean, it actually informs the structure of the news coverage itself. Right? Like people like, I mean, I don't really want to hear about what happened to them because that's bleak as fuck. But like, is this gonna be a problem for Trump? Because I'll listen to that. Yeah, yeah, that's not good. That is very, like, I don't know, we don't. Nobody wants to give tough love to the audience anymore because people are so dependent on the audience for basic survival.

[Gavin Newsom]

What influence did you have in terms of the stories? Was that a staff, you walk in and they said, here are the five top stories. Was there. I mean, there's a lot assertion and I think a Lot of proof points at Fox, it seems to be they'll carry and everybody's sort of driving the same talking point. And there's more of a top down approach. Is that. Was that your experience? Is that your experience?

[Alex Wagner]

Well, you know, every day I was like, are we leading with French Laundry? Are we leading with the French Laundry?

[Gavin Newsom]

Unbelievable. Unbelievable. The good news is we can clip this, we'll edit this, watch that. We're not gonna.

[Alex Wagner]

It's not even gonna be in the podcast.

[Gavin Newsom]

But nobody. Seriously. That's a perfect example. I mean, is that something?

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah.

[Gavin Newsom]

So you guys pick up and say, not enough people are focused on this. Fox is kicking our. Cleaning our clock on this French Laundry thing. We got to take out Newsom.

[Alex Wagner]

We're not. Oh, my God. Yes.

[Gavin Newsom]

Nobody said.

[Alex Wagner]

I mean, they own the newsome story.

[Gavin Newsom]

We gotta get. We gotta get and get a piece.

[Alex Wagner]

No, but obviously so much negative MSNBC coverage.

[Gavin Newsom]

No, but is that. No, but to what the point that way is that. I mean, is that a conversation where you're watching or your spouse is what your friends are watching? Say, boy, Alex, we're really. You're missing this. Look at these. Other networks are running this. Why aren't you guys talking more about this? And do you have the influence to carry that?

[Alex Wagner]

Yes. First of all, let me just disabuse you of the parallel you are trying to draw between Fox News and Ms. Now.

[Gavin Newsom]

No. Okay.

[Alex Wagner]

There is. Fox News pedals lies. Like if we thought something. And by the way, you.

[Gavin Newsom]

I certainly believe that it's a propaganda network. It's Pravda. Yes, but. But do you. Is that universally a belief system? I mean, is it just without any controversy within sort of the mainstream? People understand. They look and it's just roll their eyes. There's nothing about it that approximates quote, unquote news.

[Alex Wagner]

Oh, yes. I mean, people, people. I mean, there are occasionally moments that make their way through the bubble across 6th Avenue where it's like, oh, my God, they said something true. What. What a novelty. But, but the structure of msnbc, at least when I was there running my show, you know, Rashida Jones was like the head of the network and really they were. I'm trying to think of a less derogatory way of saying this, but like fiefdoms, you know, people ran their shows and I think you see that in the expression of each of these shows. Rachel's show is unlike Chris Hayes show. Chris Hayes show is unlike Lawrence o' Donnell's show. Joy's show was very different than my show. And so there were a lot of decisions that we made. But you know, you are under an enormous amount of pressure to keep your numbers up and to make sure if a story is failing, you don't cover that story again. And sometimes the stories that fail with an audience are actually really important stories to fucking tell. So, you know, but that's woven into it. Other than that, we, we do get a. We got a hot. A lot of leeway to, to cover what we wanted to cover in the way that we thought was most responsible.

[Gavin Newsom]

And what kind of relationship to the prior anchors. I mean, because you'll do four hours prior, they'll have covered extensively a story you want to cover. You start making adjustments on that basis because they got this guest and now all of a sudden will seem redundant all of a sudden. Or is it just. You just see the world in these sort of bite sizes where it's just my hour. No context necessarily to the audience of the prior hour or the hour coming after me. Is there a thread that connects?

[Alex Wagner]

No. I wanted to tell you, Governor, I know your term limited. So you are maybe looking for something. There are internships where we can take you behind the term.

[Gavin Newsom]

You mean I could get you answers to my own questions by observing and watching?

[Alex Wagner]

No, no.

[Gavin Newsom]

Or this.

[Alex Wagner]

We would love to have you.

[Gavin Newsom]

I'm sure. Are these the state secrets of Ms. You don't want to tell?

[Alex Wagner]

No, I'm happy to say, like, I think every show thinks of itself as its own show. Right? Like you don't want to be too duplicative certainly with guests. And if, you know, there were many times Chris Hayes and I have been friends for 25 years where the angle he was taking in his A block was the same angle I was taking. And I'd be like, okay, good, we gotta, we gotta redo it.

[Gavin Newsom]

That's the human response.

[Alex Wagner]

That is. But also I. They would love. The cable news industry would love nothing more than, you know, the former governor of California. Just like be helping out, escorting guests to the green room. Consider it.

[Gavin Newsom]

I have a self id. This is a very. This is a humbling year for me. 2026. Listen, they're paid interests somewhere around me. Not just mitts sort of hanging up my cleats. Jesus, more symbolic. All right, let me go back a little bit. So it's interesting. You've ever wonder why you have insurance for your car or home but not your digital life? Meet webroot Total protection. Your digital bodyguard. That includes antivirus, identity protection, vpn, cloud backup and more with plans for individuals and families. Webroot takes the guessing game out of cybersecurity so you can get back to living your best life online. Go to webroot.comaudio and get 50% off today. That's webroot.comaudio to get 50% off today. Live a better digital life with Webroot because peace of mind shouldn't be optional.

[Jorge Ramos]

Hola, I'm Jorge Ramos. This week on the Moment, we take a look at Venezuela's uncertain future in a conversation with two people who have directly advised US Presidents Juan Gonzalez during the Obama and Biden administrations.

[Gavin Newsom]

We're really good at invading countries. We're very bad at nation building.

[Jorge Ramos]

In Carlos Yar Rosillo during Trump's two terms.

[Gavin Newsom]

I can guarantee you that nobody in.

[Jorge Ramos]

The Trump administration likes Del C. Rodriguez. Listen to the Moment with Jorge Ramos and Paola ramos on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Gavin Newsom]

You. You hang up your cleats a little bit in terms of having a daily show, a nightly cable show. But now you have all of this freedom. You're able to answer your own questions, you're able to respond to your own.

[Alex Wagner]

Use four letter words.

[Gavin Newsom]

Can do four letter words. You don't have to apologize for that. You can answer your own critique about the limitations, the box you're in and the constraints of that position. In this new format, you're able to get out, and that's what you're doing. You talk about the marrow of manga and the fringes of the resistance and how you are able to now navigate that. And so you've been doing this. How many episodes of the new podcast now?

[Alex Wagner]

What feels like 56. And we started in mid October and there's been one on every. Every week, so I'm gonna say like 8 or 10. I should know that.

[Gavin Newsom]

So once a week, you dive deep and you meet with real human beings, real stories. You get out of the noise, you break through the. That's fundamental.

[Alex Wagner]

Are we breaking. Is anybody breaking through the noise? We try. I mean, I think it's like how many fucking. Look at. Everybody has a fucking podcast, right?

[Gavin Newsom]

Everyone has a podcast. Literally, you have speaking a noise. I mean, the fact that I.

[Alex Wagner]

Right, we're here.

[Gavin Newsom]

A politician with a book coming out.

[Alex Wagner]

February 24th, a podcaster with a book coming out.

[Gavin Newsom]

PodC. Yes. Your second book. We'll talk about your first book. I haven't forgotten. Yes, we are.

[Alex Wagner]

It's out of print now.

[Gavin Newsom]

Thank you. Difference is what's out of. Is it out of print? But you can still get it in paperback.

[Alex Wagner]

Maybe you.

[Gavin Newsom]

Absolutely. Well, again, well, we're going to talk about that because you do have an interesting past. We're not going to talk about your presence in a future, present, future, but let me talk about the current. So you're doing this. You're out and about.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah. You're doing Runaway country is the name of the podcast.

[Gavin Newsom]

Runaway country with crooked media. And you are out meeting human beings, people that are the subject of a lot of the policy in this conversation.

[Alex Wagner]

So, like, I don't know if you've had these conversations, but I have had many of them since January 20th of this year with people saying, like, I. And this is admittedly a position of privilege to not. To be able to not pay attention to what's going on. People feeling like, fuck, there's just. I can't. It's just too much. It's all so bad. And I thought, you know, deeply or as deep as I'm capable of thinking about, like, what breaks through anymore. Right. It's a human story. It's emotion. It's feeling like you give a shit about what's happening, whether it's because it's unfolding on your doorstep, or it's your neighbor that got seized in a dragnet, or it's your sister who lost her health insurance. Whatever it is, it has to feel resonant, personally. And I've always thought that, like, we read these horrible headlines. Some. Some of them are good, but generally in the Trump era, most of them are shit. And you're like, oh, that seems really bad, but it's also abstracted. And the only way of making things tangible and real and resonant for people is to give you some kind of story of a person who is at the center of that headline. So each week we begin with, you know, that person who is. Whether it's an immigration court judge who's telling me about how fucking terrified she is of ICE agents in her courtroom, or whether it's an Afghan national who helped the US for 25 years and came here on a green card and is about to get kicked out because Trump is effectively using a national tragedy to enact a racist repopulation policy, or whether it's a Venezuelan national who's super excited that Maduro is gone and gives context to the complicated political trajectory that we're on right now as Democrats try and figure out what this moment is all about. I just think you gotta start with a heart. Oh, my God, that's so corny. I just say that I just. Can we cut that out?

[Gavin Newsom]

We love the heart. I mean, we're cutting out French Laundry, not the heart.

[Alex Wagner]

Use that in your presidential bid. Anyway, we gotta start with the essence of things, which is just the things.

[Gavin Newsom]

That connect and bind us together.

[Alex Wagner]

Yes.

[Gavin Newsom]

Human humanity.

[Alex Wagner]

And we've. It's just become like a faceless mask. You're like on your TikTok, you're on your Instagram, but you. It's like the fucking stranger on the street. The person that just came from a completely different place and has a completely different life. The fuck anybody knows about that person. So that's the. That's the sort of thesis of the beginning of the show. And then the second half is like, jolly good analysis from all your favorite people, except for Governor Gavin Newsom, who refuses to come on the show. But just I needed to come on. I've serviced this great debt coming to.

[Gavin Newsom]

Inaugurate service, this great debt person live in the studio.

[Alex Wagner]

Visit me on my podcast. Yes, but you know, like, I think it's additive, which is not to be too self promoting.

[Gavin Newsom]

Meaning you're not as proud as the second half of the podcast as you first.

[Alex Wagner]

No, I think it's good. I think it's great. I think the second half of the podcast is important and I think people love. I will say, you know, one of the things of cable is like, every block is like six minutes long and you're like, shit, I had like 19 more questions I wanted to ask. And the thing I absolutely love about podcasting, independent of being able to curse, like till I'm blue in the face, is the time you can just stretch out and like get into it. And you have time for non sequiturs, but you have time for people to stop and think about their answer to the question as opposed to as many politicians do, staying on talking points, really, to run out the clock on their phone.

[Gavin Newsom]

First of all, I want to thank you for acknowledging that. And I want to thank you as well for this opportunity to engage you today. It's a very safe space.

[Alex Wagner]

Yes.

[Gavin Newsom]

I have a number of issues I'd like to bring up that I think are important to our audience.

[Alex Wagner]

Please tell me about Californians and what they need.

[Gavin Newsom]

No. So is this what you felt like you were missing? Look, you did this with Trumpland. You did get out. And by the way, dude, I was.

[Alex Wagner]

In front of DC Jail on January 20th in the freezing cold at midnight, waiting for inmates to come out. January 6th, insurrectionists. That's what I was doing on it, by the way.

[Gavin Newsom]

We're speaking at the fifth anniversary of January 6, where 1600 were pardoned. Yes, I was out there, were convicted.

[Alex Wagner]

Or faced charges and talking to all of them about how they felt about Trump and man, it was eye opening.

[Gavin Newsom]

How about a year later and how they feel about Trump? They feel hasn't been sufficient. Even those that have been pardoned. Well, that is because he hasn't exposed the conspiracy. Well, he hasn't held those people to account that were part of this conspiracy. Well, which is just how many layers deeply.

[Alex Wagner]

Well, we live in deeply paranoid times.

[Gavin Newsom]

So you in the cause of engagement, the cause of heart, of finding the humanity and bringing these policies, these issues, all the noise, the rhetoric and how it actually affects real human beings because there's collateral damage. It's real. It's all. This is consequential. Do you feel you're. You're servicing that truth in a. In a deeper way? Do you feel like this mission is. Is. Is fulfilling? Why are you smiling?

[Alex Wagner]

Well, just because I feel like mission makes me sound like I'm like, about to enter. You add purpose, you add meaning. You want to listen and listen. Some weeks are better than others. Right? It's like you can't be scoring a 10 every week and like every story isn't going to have the same impact as the other. But you don't give up on the work. And I feel it bums me out how lonely it is that there are not more people trying to do this because I'm not in elected office. I'm not interested in elected office. But, like, the only way the project of America succeeds is if you begin to knit. Knit the fabric of the country back together and like man, until you can even see. Begin to see the perspective of someone else, which is not me trying to be like, lay your arms down and get in bed with a racist. That's not what I'm saying. But you. The empathy or the understanding or at least understanding how people tick, that's like the beginning of.

[Gavin Newsom]

That's why I started the podcast. The first guest was Charlie Kirk. I mean, you know, I know and I.

[Alex Wagner]

We texted about this. It's fucking treacherous. It is fucking treacherous to do it at the same time. What the fuck else are we supposed to do? Like, this is this movement has captured the imagination of the American public in a way that has awoken our darkest evolutionary instincts to punish, to demean, to hurt people who aren't like us. And when I say evolutionary, I genuinely believe there's a darkness of the human spirit that trump and maga ism has awoken and like, until you tackle that and like, bring. Figure out a way to get everybody back into the light. Like, I, I don't know. I mean, I don't think just getting a new. Can we talk about all this moment as if it's just Trump's creation? It is not. It is symptomatic of a poison that is within our society. I'm getting all biblical sounding.

[Gavin Newsom]

I love it. No, I mean, he was. I. Look, it's been over 10 years since he came down the escalator and now 11. I think it's you. Are you surprised it's endured this long?

[Alex Wagner]

I actually, I mean, I don't know. I. I guess. I guess not, because it was. So I went to. Okay, here's what I'll say. I was part of the show, the Circus, which was a weekly documentary show on Showtime. Showtime, yeah. You appeared.

[Gavin Newsom]

Great show.

[Alex Wagner]

You appeared on it.

[Gavin Newsom]

It's a great show.

[Alex Wagner]

It was a great show. RIP.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Alex Wagner]

And. And you'd go to these Trump rallies. I went to a number of them. And I think.

[Gavin Newsom]

And it was you. I mean, what made that show work is what you describe and what you're describing about your new podcast is you guys were out and about being real food. You were out there on the. By the way, you did a lot of that on your show. I mean, we were out. We were together in the South.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, that's true. I tried to.

[Gavin Newsom]

So you were doing it just for the. For the record. I mean, I think you got to give yourself a little more grace because you were pushing that and obviously Trump land reflected that. But continue. I mean, this notion of Trump during 11 years and the experience of the circus.

[Alex Wagner]

So I would go to these Trump rallies and I think people largely knew, especially on the left, the vitriol and the kind of nonsense that was spouted these things. But what they didn't understand and what you wouldn't have understood unless you were there, was that it also had this feeling of like an old time revival.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yes.

[Alex Wagner]

There was so much joy. There was so much community. There was so much camaraderie and like cheap joy in some ways because it was at the expense of entire groups of people. And it was like, own the lips. Am I allowed to throw the middle finger?

[Gavin Newsom]

You can do middle fingers. I think we've used a few four letter words. One of them was French.

[Alex Wagner]

But like, there is. People are looking for communion, people are looking for community. And Trump gave them that and gives them that, and that's really powerful people see the negative side of it because it was founded on an essentially exclusionary impulse. But at the end of the day, it was like, it's me. It's my. It's my time with my people, and I'm okay. I'm an okay person. They're okay, we're okay. What we think is okay. It was validating. It was spiritually, I think, enhancing for people who've been at MAGA from the beginning. And that is something I think Democrats didn't understand too. Right. Like, there is joy in the camaraderie of MAGA and that's, I think, proven insanely durable. And I saw that and I felt that when not my joy. Right. Like, they were like brown lady with a news camera. I was like, please give me security. But, you know, I remember thinking, this is deeper. This runs deeper than just like, you know, mass deportations now. And so his mismanagement of the COVID epidemic was so profound. His mismanagement of so many things was profound. And the strength of Biden as a candidate in terms of being unifier and a Bridge in 2020. Yeah. Was, I think, strong enough to overcome that. But. But the pull of this movement is, like, deeply emotional and like. And not all. Yes. It's sort of negative from a policy point of view, and I guess you would say, like an ethical point of view. But the sense of belonging and the genuine warmth it gives people who believe in it, I agree, is highly intoxicating.

[Gavin Newsom]

Everything you described, I couldn't agree more. And it's interesting. We've had other guests on. And Kepler on the Daily show went to. I mean, how many of these said the same thing? And he even. And even. I mean, he had a very honest expression. He said, I kind of miss going to some of these things because I got to know some of the big.

[Alex Wagner]

Jordan Clubber.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Alex Wagner]

They love him in a red sequined cowboy hat.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah. No, and I mean, these are some of the legendary interviews. I mean, his interviews. But. And it just. And people wouldn't even break. They could not be convinced. There was no intellectual because they were so connected to something bigger than themselves.

[Alex Wagner]

It's a revival.

[Gavin Newsom]

So what's the lesson in that? I mean, what's. I mean, I think it's. There's something beautiful in that. This notion of sense of belonging, community. It's important. I mean, we all need to be. I mean, goes. Forgive me. I'll pick up on your frame. We all need to be loved. We all need to love. And this notion of you Know, being respected and connected to something bigger, ourselves is powerful, always has been. I mean, that's what community is about. That's what volunteerism about. That's what the Rotary Club's about. That's what church is.

[Alex Wagner]

That's what church is about.

[Gavin Newsom]

And that's. And so as those institutions begin to fray, we get more lonely, more isolated, more disconnected, and we need that however we can find it. So what's the lesson in that from a political lens, from your perspective, in terms of healing and addressing this breach?

[Alex Wagner]

I think one thing Democrats need to do is bring joy back. And, like, maybe that starts with humor. I think that some of the memes that you've been posting are absolutely.

[Gavin Newsom]

You did see my. I did see Trump signature series knee pads right there, available on my Patriot site.

[Alex Wagner]

Do not fall for the imitations.

[Gavin Newsom]

Do not fall for the.

[Alex Wagner]

Those are the ones that were originally made in China.

[Gavin Newsom]

I'm waiting for the lawsuit by the Trump family.

[Alex Wagner]

You're going to have a lot of laws, lawsuits coming at you. Don't you worry.

[Gavin Newsom]

I've engaged in 52 so far myself and to counter that. But, yeah, that one's going to be an expensive one. I think so.

[Alex Wagner]

Good.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah. But no, I saw this issue of humor. I love what you say.

[Alex Wagner]

You gotta, you gotta.

[Gavin Newsom]

Are we a humorless Democratic Party?

[Alex Wagner]

Yes.

[Gavin Newsom]

Thank you for saying that.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, man. I mean, this is 110.

[Gavin Newsom]

Why is that the case?

[Alex Wagner]

What is it about terrified of offending someone that. That is one lesson of to trying, Trump, is that you gotta care less about. You cannot be everything to everyone. And I think it's driven from a place of trying to be inclusive, which is not inherently a bad thing. Right. And like, all these lessons were learned in short order in the 2020s, whether it was the death of George Floyd and Black Lives Matter. Me too. And then Covid, and it was like, okay, we gotta do all these things differently. The institutions have failed us. We need to rethink everything. But it, with the rebuilding was done in such a way that, you know, and I'm not one to usually quote Barack Obama, but he said, you know, we made it for the woke and not the waking. And the sense of you are either with us or you are actively against us is not how you build a national party. And I think part of the thing of humor is it's designed to offend. And sometimes you have to accept that. And you're not gonna be very fucking funny if you're not offending someone.

[Gavin Newsom]

We've. I think we've Offended a few people. Some of my social media. Forgive me, it's so good, but this notion of. I love joy.

[Alex Wagner]

I love that you say that, but.

[Gavin Newsom]

Joy, that's not a word you hear. It's not a word. It's attached to our politics. But it is interesting. You'll find that joy. You found it when you're there at these. These rallies.

[Alex Wagner]

Totally. But I also think Democrats need to go into. Donald Trump is a joyful warrior. You know, we focus on the toxic, like, cancerous shit he says. But he's making jokes half the time. Like, he's joking about Doug Mills making him look fat in the New York Times. Right. Like, he actually does still have adult, though he is.

[Gavin Newsom]

You think new scum is funny?

[Alex Wagner]

I mean, I think it's lame.

[Gavin Newsom]

I think it's lame, too. He's got it. I thought in 2026. He went after me this morning, some investigation, some latest attack, but. Yeah, I just don't think it's.

[Alex Wagner]

It's not good enough.

[Gavin Newsom]

No, he's got to stay.

[Alex Wagner]

But when you run for president, he'll come up with something else.

[Gavin Newsom]

You think that?

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah. See, what's good is I just thought.

[Gavin Newsom]

You would miss that.

[Alex Wagner]

You're running.

[Gavin Newsom]

Oh, you see? You didn't know where I was gonna zig back. Yeah, yeah, sure.

[Alex Wagner]

But. But like. But joyful warrior, man. Who's been a joyful. The last joyful warrior was Barack Obama. You know, like. And that translates not just to the candidate.

[Gavin Newsom]

Kamala had it in the beginning of.

[Alex Wagner]

The campaign, very beginning. And I talked about this, and I.

[Gavin Newsom]

Literally talked to her about. I said, who is this guy? I said, I remember you back 20 years ago, before we're both in politics. I'm loving this new Kamala, this joy.

[Alex Wagner]

She had a smile on her face, and it was like, let's go get him.

[Gavin Newsom]

No, it really felt there's something powerful to this.

[Alex Wagner]

If you have. Have that joy within you, that translates to not just the way you talk to the American public. Your campaign will feel it, and your supporters feel it. And, like, it's palpable. It's real. And people see joy. They see. You know, even if the stakes are extraordinarily high and the work ahead is tough and bruising and backbending. Is that a word? People will go with you. You know, they see the reward of camaraderie and. And they feel the high, the elation of being in it together. You know, it's how people get through wars. Right. You're in the foxhole with your people and you don't. It's not about being maudlin. Even though the times are dark. It's just about. God, I sound like Tony Robbins. It just, I feel like the moment is about going out.

[Gavin Newsom]

We've established cold plunges and now we have life coaches.

[Alex Wagner]

Mel Robbins. Mel, one of the robins.

[Gavin Newsom]

Mel Robbins. Pretty good podcast.

[Alex Wagner]

We need to have her on.

[Gavin Newsom]

She is next. I'm next. Level.

[Alex Wagner]

Level. She is.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah. Sorry, Joe Rogan. I'll take Mel Rollins any day of the week.

[Alex Wagner]

But, but yeah, I mean, I think that's essential for any Democrat who's going to hold the, like the national stage in the coming years.

[Gavin Newsom]

So let me talk about your years. You mentioned a brown lady.

[Alex Wagner]

There's only 30 of the camera.

[Gavin Newsom]

There's only a few. Only, only 30 of them. I love it. You've done a hell of a lot in 30 years.

[Alex Wagner]

I really have.

[Gavin Newsom]

I mean, just the Atlantic years were amazing. The CVS years. By the way, on cbs, how worried are you about Warner Brothers? How worried about big time?

[Alex Wagner]

I mean, I think. Listen, all.

[Gavin Newsom]

How panicked is everyone? News industry?

[Alex Wagner]

First of all, like I say, this is Ms. Now has been spun off from, from. Yeah, it's like all these companies are up for sale at some point, right? CNN's up for sale. And what the Ellisons are doing at Paramount is a case study for what they could do at other media companies. Right. They're trying to prove the case by spiking stories at 60 minutes, by installing an anchor at the evening news who's willing to at least give credence to paranoid right wing conspiracies. That is a sign of deep illness within the industry. And I don't understand, like some white knight needs to come to the rescue and maybe buy these companies, but do white knights exist? Jeff Bezos owns the Washington Post and we see what's happened there. I mean, it's a dire moment for the industry and I am very worried.

[Gavin Newsom]

I mean, I pause on that because you're like.

[Alex Wagner]

And cut. Thank you for joining us.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah, no, I mean, it's. But does that extend even if Netflix is the. The succeeds in their bid?

[Alex Wagner]

Well, Netflix is just trying to buy, as far as I can tell, the library of content and like all as I used to hold. I did host a reality TV show on Netflix which probably didn't make it on in your like Apple research.

[Gavin Newsom]

It's.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah.

[Gavin Newsom]

Why didn't I. I did not.

[Alex Wagner]

It was big. It's actually the, probably the largest audience I've ever had. It was a reality TV show. It was a reboot of the Anderson Cooper reality TV show the Mole. And I hosted the first season of it. It was on Netflix. And I have nothing but positive things to say about Netflix and their shepherding of that show to great success for the first season. But like they all these multinational corporations have vested interest in China. Right? Like the content that Apple's gonna make is not gonna, we're not gonna wanna upset Chinese sensibilities. We're at a moment right now where the President of the United States has made it very clear that he will try and revoke licenses or like launch lawsuits or otherwise make life very difficult for any, any media organization, news or otherwise, that pumps out content that's critical of him and his supporters. So like, I am concerned no matter who buys it. We're in a moment of great fear.

[Gavin Newsom]

I had a former spokesperson for Trump administration 1.0, Spicer came on and he said he was not worried about all this. That were our sort of obsession with corporate media, which is, I mean, by definition profit making media, which you have established the framework and the orientation around doing what actually sells and the importance imperative of that as a business model. It is at the end of the day business that the creation, this ecosystem that you are part of, podcasts, et cetera. And this sort of disintermediation now is actually the antidote to maybe some of the negativity and fear that you just expressed.

[Alex Wagner]

Yes. And I will say I adore being at crooked media. It is so awesome to be surrounded, you know, like you can be a house cat in the middle of a civil war. You can be a cat that's out there looking for birds and mice to kill and survive on. And I feel like I'm like, I'm like I just made it up. I'm the house cat that was like maybe forcibly kicked out of the house, but like, nonetheless, like I'm in there in the wild and this is what the landscape's like and you can survive and you can have like a leaner, meaner existence and be alive. And like I feel so much more alive right in this new media landscape. At the same time, it worries me that there are like 1,000 podcasts right there. I do think we need some agreed upon pillars of truth. And you can have a couple like Mel Robbins. Much respect. Yeah, of course you can have some really big podcasts. But like, are they gonna be as like, what are the terms of engagement for these podcasts? What is the sort of rigor in terms of fact checking and news? And it's not the same thing. I think the dis like the idea that this part of the media landscape is like old and perhaps outmoded and is being replaced by a vibrant, exciting new culture of information and analysis is a good thing for human society. But whether it actually solves the problem of, of disinformation and misinformation that's plaguing our society is like a real open question. And I'm kind of skeptical.

[Gavin Newsom]

Interesting. I mean you can make the argument sort of the, the Wikipedia version of it that there's sort of enough sort of self correction and sort of sort of the iteration in that space. But look, I mean, I, it's an interesting counter argument to what Sean Spicer was sort of asserting.

[Alex Wagner]

Well, we'll find ourselves often Governor Newsom on the opposite side of Sean Spicer.

[Gavin Newsom]

Interesting. Unbelievable.

[Alex Wagner]

Should have Melissa McCarthy.

[Gavin Newsom]

That's a breaking news. Breaking news. Speaking of breaking news, hola.

[Jorge Ramos]

I am Jorge. This week on the Moment, we take a look at Venezuela's uncertain future in a conversation with two people who have directly advised US Presidents, Juan Gonzalez during the Obama and Biden administrations.

[Gavin Newsom]

We're really good at invading countries. We're very bad at nation building in.

[Jorge Ramos]

Carlos Yarosillo during two Trump's two terms.

[Gavin Newsom]

I can guarantee you that nobody in.

[Jorge Ramos]

The Trump administration likes Del C. Rodriguez. Listen to the moment with Jorge Ramos and Paola ramos on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Gavin Newsom]

You were out there, as I was suggesting a moment ago. I keep going, trying to come back to this because I am honestly fascinated about your background. You said you talked, you joked again. I'll read it for the second time. There was brown girl out with a camera. But your history, your background, you grew up in Washington D.C. you wrote a book called Future Faith Place which was about sort of this, this notion of identity. You traveled around the world, your mom coming from overseas and war torn countries, authoritarian regimes, militarization of the streets. Your dad from Iowa.

[Alex Wagner]

Iowa, Yeah.

[Gavin Newsom]

I mean, just that contrast. So talk to me a little bit. You grew up, so remind us you grew up in Washington.

[Alex Wagner]

I grew up in Washington, D.C. proper. Which is like the ultimate conversation.

[Gavin Newsom]

Exactly.

[Alex Wagner]

People are like, oh, you're from D.C. i have nothing.

[Gavin Newsom]

Who's from D.C. no one.

[Alex Wagner]

Me.

[Gavin Newsom]

Thank you.

[Alex Wagner]

Me. And like Lucas, like you were actually.

[Gavin Newsom]

Physically born in a hospital.

[Alex Wagner]

At Sibley Hospital on November 27.

[Gavin Newsom]

Was it safe back then or it's only safe now because of Trump's guard?

[Alex Wagner]

It's much more interesting back then okay. It was rougher for sure.

[Gavin Newsom]

Definitely was.

[Alex Wagner]

I was a product of the D.C. public school system, which was not what it is now. And I proudly. So it was. My dad was. You know, he cut his teeth as a field organizer for McGovern in the 70s. That's where he met someone named Bill Clinton. And you know, he was an organizer at his heart. He was the field organizer for Ted Kennedy. He's ill fated 1980 campaign. He was always an insurgent, but he was a good Iowa boy at heart. You know, he just was. He came to Washington because he wanted to solve the problem of poverty and hunger in America. You know, he was driven by.

[Gavin Newsom]

What year would he have done that? Is this the Sarge Shriver years?

[Alex Wagner]

70. 70.

[Gavin Newsom]

I love it. But this is when we were solving the vernacular. Ignorance, poverty and disease. There was a spirit to our politics. One of the reasons so much Kennedy, Bobby Kennedy in SAR Shriver memorial memorabilia around you. That spirit, it totally get it.

[Alex Wagner]

Late 60s, early 70s, the Kennedys and the sort of the ideological bent of the Kennedys was so much his North.

[Gavin Newsom]

Star, you know, and was so your product of interest in a political frame, did that?

[Alex Wagner]

I think so. I mean, my mom was born in Burma, now known as Myanmar, which has been basically at war with itself for the greater part of the 20th and 21st centuries. And our family was being targeted while they were there. And she came over here and got a scholarship.

[Gavin Newsom]

How old was she when she came in?

[Alex Wagner]

She was 19. Yeah. But she'd gone to English schools in Burma. And my parents had. My grandparents had both been Fulbright scholars. And so they were part of like the, you know, the learned elite in Burma and thus were targeted by the, you know, the military as it was basically trying to purge the country of any western influence. And you know, my mom is like, I think you'll find no greater patriots than immigrants.

[Gavin Newsom]

Love that. Totally agree.

[Alex Wagner]

Right.

[Gavin Newsom]

Harder workers too. Just so entrepreneurial spirit that a patriotic.

[Alex Wagner]

They just believe so much, much in this country. They want to contribute to it. They think it's the greatest place.

[Gavin Newsom]

One of the great things I. I did it a lot when I was mayor. I haven't done as much since. But swearing in folks, you go into swearing in ceremony, the diversity, those crowd. That's just a powerful spirited thing. The families and just the emotion, a sense of patriotism, optimism.

[Alex Wagner]

I love that. And we've lost that Val. The understanding of how deeply and richly immigrants contribute to this country and make it America, make it the place we love.

[Gavin Newsom]

So she came as an immigrant 19.

[Alex Wagner]

Years old to Washington D.C. because my grandmother got a job at the Library of Congress and the Library of Congress basically pulled them out of Burma and then said, you don't need passports. You are a valuable contrib. You. My grandmother knew Bali, which is an ancient language that she had studied in her Fulbright scholarship. And they needed her expertise at the Library of Congress. So they brought my family over. And that debt, like, I don't think my family will ever forget because otherwise I never would have been born. My mom and dad met working at a labor Union in the 70s. My mom went to college and was like dabbled in sort of like socialism as one did in the early 70s and met my dad and they hated each other. And then they got married.

[Gavin Newsom]

What do you mean they hated each other at first date or.

[Alex Wagner]

My mom was like, he's an asshole. And she was. He. I don't know what he said, but my mom definitely said he's an asshole. But they were both, you know, hot young things. And they got married and they had one daughter and that was me.

[Gavin Newsom]

Me.

[Alex Wagner]

And just once.

[Gavin Newsom]

No siblings.

[Alex Wagner]

No siblings. One and done.

[Gavin Newsom]

And you went to public school in D.C. and where'd you go to college?

[Alex Wagner]

I went to a place called Brown University.

[Gavin Newsom]

Unbelievable.

[Alex Wagner]

I know. What a fucking.

[Gavin Newsom]

I thought I could give them a. And not as bad. Maybe just one knee pad to Brown.

[Alex Wagner]

I know both.

[Gavin Newsom]

But they did bend down on one.

[Alex Wagner]

There was a shooting on the campus. I will. My heart actually broke for that as like great freedom legitimately. Imagine. Let's remember that. But other than that. What a. An extraordinary capitulation we've seen on the part of these campus.

[Gavin Newsom]

These universities. And I'm. We've got to hold the line here at the university.

[Alex Wagner]

They aren't going to. Who is.

[Gavin Newsom]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Alex Wagner]

Like in Burma, they just closed the universities here we're like allowing them to basically put the chains on the bars.

[Gavin Newsom]

Okay. I'm going to provide two knee pads. You're much more. You're much more honest about what Brown did than. But I appreciate you. Zero. By way, the way. Brown's a special university.

[Alex Wagner]

It is.

[Gavin Newsom]

There's a unique student body that it says so much more about you. It's by the way, explains kind of everything. Oh, that you're one of those fancy Brown people. By the way. 960 sat here. So there was no Brown back when.

[Alex Wagner]

The perfect score was a thousand. Right. In 1952.

[Gavin Newsom]

Wasn't that what my sister said? Oh, it's just for math. Right. No, thank you. But let me Ask you about this.

[Alex Wagner]

You wear it like a badge of honor.

[Gavin Newsom]

Why do. I mean, it's respect.

[Alex Wagner]

It's. Has not held you back? Hasn't?

[Gavin Newsom]

No, I don't. Maybe it has. I mean, I don't know. I mean, I don't know. I don't know.

[Alex Wagner]

Ask me in 2028.

[Gavin Newsom]

Ask me. Keep going back to my Rotary Club. But let me ask you, on the issue of your education at Brown, what was your passion back then? What do you want to be? Who do you want to become?

[Alex Wagner]

So boring. I always want to be a journalist. I was like, come on, really? Yeah. Even early on in elementary school, I wrote for the Merch Monitor. I was the editor in chief of the Real Deal. That was my middle school paper. I was one of the editors at the Wilson Beacon. God, I can't even remember. I obviously didn't do that much editing in high school. And then I was one of the editors for the weekly College Hill Independent newspaper, which was the sort of cooler counterpoint to the Brown Daily Herald, which was the daily. But I always was always. I loved writing, you know, and I loved talking to people, loved getting out there. I loved. You know, I just always loved media. My dad, to my dad's great chagrin, he'd say, kid, why cover the news when you can be in the news?

[Gavin Newsom]

Oh, interesting.

[Alex Wagner]

And I was like, eye roll.

[Gavin Newsom]

You're so corny, by the way. Sounds like you took your dad's advice. I mean, because who look at you now?

[Alex Wagner]

I don't know.

[Gavin Newsom]

Right? I mean, come on. People that are just delivering the news, they're the celebrities. They're the. They're the.

[Alex Wagner]

It's a very uncomfortable position, as you can see. Yeah, it's weird to be. It's like, not, actually. I've, like, violated so much of what we thought it meant to be a journalist by talking so candidly about my own.

[Gavin Newsom]

You guys are hardly anonymous. I mean, you guys are brands, your household names, your celebrity. You have. You have products that you sell there. You have. You're doing podcasts and this and this. Everybody's books and the whole thing.

[Alex Wagner]

If you got to survive, you're a house cat out there in the Civil War, just looking for money. I literally made that up.

[Gavin Newsom]

Now you're using it again.

[Alex Wagner]

Start with the heart. House cat. You can have it all. Yeah, you have to do it all, because that's the only way people are going to listen to you anymore now that everything's been so disappointed. Aggregated. Everything's atomized, nebulized. Unless you are A big atom out there. You're. I mean, you're throwing pennies down the.

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, you should have. I mean, you ultimately did take your dad's advice, which is nice.

[Alex Wagner]

He's. He passed away in 2017. He never saw. He never saw the madness that has become. But I think.

[Gavin Newsom]

Did he. Did he ever say he was proud of you?

[Alex Wagner]

Oh, my God. All the time.

[Gavin Newsom]

You had it. He was that kind of dad.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah. When he died, they found. They were like, oh, there are a lot of your old MSNBC DC posters.

[Gavin Newsom]

Oh, that's sweet. That's sweet, right?

[Alex Wagner]

Maybe. But, no, he loves.

[Gavin Newsom]

Incredible.

[Alex Wagner]

So proud of me. Yeah, but you kind of wanted him. Sometimes I'd be like, what'd you think of that, dad? And be like, you're great, Poncho. He always called me Poncho. He'd be like, you're great, kid. You did a great job. He really had a raspy voice. Whereas my mom would be like, yeah, it could have been better. So it was a nice balance.

[Gavin Newsom]

And is your mom still.

[Alex Wagner]

Oh, yeah. My mom's very much alive and kicking.

[Gavin Newsom]

And does she give you a lot of advice, career advice?

[Alex Wagner]

Always the number one advice. Number one advice. She'll tell me after she sees this. You need to wear more lipstick. Why aren't you wearing lipstick? Why don't you wear lipstick? You look dead. Just.

[Gavin Newsom]

You look dead.

[Alex Wagner]

That's it. That's it. Lipstick.

[Gavin Newsom]

Then.

[Alex Wagner]

Then occasionally you speak too quickly. Alex.

[Gavin Newsom]

Oh, my gosh.

[Alex Wagner]

The. Listen, she's not wrong. I probably should, but there we are. Where we are.

[Gavin Newsom]

You know, she doesn't tell you to be. At the same time, be yourself. Be authentic.

[Alex Wagner]

She does.

[Gavin Newsom]

So she gives you this contradictory advice.

[Alex Wagner]

Right, Exactly. She likes the authentic part, but she just wants it done in a Revlon Red. She just wants it done in a Revlon.

[Gavin Newsom]

I. I love and may ask how old she is now.

[Alex Wagner]

80 beautiful years.

[Gavin Newsom]

That's amazing.

[Alex Wagner]

And she's still in D.C. no, she's on Long Island.

[Gavin Newsom]

Oh, Long Island.

[Alex Wagner]

She is. We are. She is right by my side. I see her all the time.

[Gavin Newsom]

Wow.

[Alex Wagner]

It's good she's happy, you know, but I think it's hard for anybody, you know, we're talking about being an immigrant. You know, she came here and she was so. And remains like, she puts up her flag every Fourth of July. She's like, they're not going to take the flag. She printed out bumper sticker flags that said, democrats believe in America. She was like, we are patriots. We care about this country. Don't let Them steal that from us.

[Gavin Newsom]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Alex Wagner]

And she has his institutional memory of meeting John F. Kennedy when she came over with the Burmese embassy in fourth grade, you know, and she has this deep and abiding belief in the fundamental goodness of this country, and she reads a newspaper and watches the news religiously and is bereft. It's like, how could this man be doing these things to our country? And I don't even want to talk to her about the fact that it's not just him, it's a country doing it to itself. And I think it's been. It's hard to be 81 right now, right? You've lived through some really remarkable decades and progress. Civil rights, women's rights, and so much of it is being just ripped apart, and you kind of find yourself at a loss. Like, was it all just a fucking dream? What is this? What is this place?

[Gavin Newsom]

Where do you. You and you talk a lot about what we're missing, and that's been a big part of the podcast. And, you know, and what are the stories we're missing with all the noise, the sort of MAGA noise, et cetera. And so we're in a new year. We just turned the PA page first week of January. What I mean, right now, I mean, you know, all the noise. Venezuela, January 6th again. Fifth anniversary today, Epstein. And that's just winding up. Congress is back in session. As we tape this podcast today, they're at the Kennedy Center Republicans meeting, talking about how they can reconcile the fact that they were complicit with 114% average increase for 20, almost 22 million Americans in their healthcare bills and whether or not they can get out of Dodge and figure out a way to actually see if they can extend these Obamacare subsidies so that they can somehow salvage their prospects, maybe hold on to power in 2026. What do you make of the moment we're in? What are the stories you think will define 2026, and what are the stories that we should be talking more about?

[Alex Wagner]

Well, I mean, I think the healthcare piece is huge, right? I mean, I think at our own, I think it's misguided to separate affordability from healthcare. It's all money. Money's fungible. You can either afford your medicine. You can't. You can afford the bacon, or you can't. It's all coming from the same pocketbook, right? I interviewed someone on my podcast who has a debilitating medical condition. Her premiums were $110 a month. They're gonna go up They've gone up to 880.

[Gavin Newsom]

Oh, come on.

[Alex Wagner]

That's not tenable.

[Gavin Newsom]

No, period.

[Alex Wagner]

People are like, oh, it's only 22 million people. I'm like, 22 million people's a lot of people.

[Gavin Newsom]

22 million million families.

[Alex Wagner]

Families, yeah.

[Gavin Newsom]

Extending.

[Alex Wagner]

With children.

[Gavin Newsom]

With children.

[Alex Wagner]

Old people.

[Gavin Newsom]

Exactly right.

[Alex Wagner]

And what it. And, And I think the connection that Democrats in particular need to make is it is a statement of. It is a moral statement. What they are doing to. To. It's not about just, can you afford it, it's who can afford what and who deserves to be able to afford to live in this country and to afford a life in this country. The idea that. That. That Trump is doing this is literally stealing money from the needed money from the pockets of the poor so that he can line the pockets of the rich is the defining sort of thesis of governing. If he has any sort of raison d', etre, if there is any guiding principle to Trump, it is to make people like him wealthier. That's why we're in Venezuela. That's why the healthcare subsidies are going. They're trying to save money on one end to redistribute it to the richest at the top end. I mean, that is the essence of all of it. And everything needs to be seen through that lens. Nobody fucking needs oil. It's $60 a barrel. Like, there's a surplus. We don't need more oil. It's just oil companies getting more access to underground reserves. You know, I think what needs to happen is for us as a country to better understand the machinations of this president is to really come up with an operating thesis that covers all of it. And the greed and the cruelty is really the point. And Adam Serwer said it best in the Atlantic, but that is what touches on every single story. I mean, even the immigration stuff. It is about repopulating the country with white people. Yes. It is about racism. It's about being mean to people who aren't like you. It's just about being cruel. It's about comeuppance, and it's about cruelty, and it's about a harshness that speaks to the. Like I said, the darkest fucking demons of human evolution. And I think all of this Trumpism needs to be seen in the sort of through the lens of brutality and cruelty, because that's. That's at its essence, you know, and we need to bring people back from the sort of lull of economic affordability, and we need them to understand that it's at its root at its core, these policies are about punishment and grief. So the stories I'm going to be following are certainly health care, immigration, I think continues to be an extraordinary story. I mean it is going to change the face of this country. Right.

[Gavin Newsom]

Like I wrote, it's changing the face of California. We had legal immigrants, we estimate about 150,000 less than the prior year of legal immigrants. You want to talk about the secret sauce in California from Silicon Valley, not just the Central Valley, is getting first round draft toys from around the rest of the world. That's what separates our game from the game played elsewhere. That's what's built the fourth largest economy in the world. That vibrancy, that energy and daring that you talk about from newcomers that are coming here for riches and new beginnings. Couldn't agree with you more. Forgive me.

[Alex Wagner]

No, I love it when you talk about the silica. We're talking about America is immigrants.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yes.

[Alex Wagner]

It's just we are immigrants and to be purging the country and of all the brown ones is not going to leave us with much of a country. And I think telling the stories of immigrants is really important because people have been able to look away. And so that's something we'll continue to do on the podcast. I think also what's happening to poor women in this country just in terms of both healthcare and access to make decisions about their own bodies. I mean what you see happening in the Deep south, we sort of stopped talking about abortion because it didn't win us 20, 20, 24 election. That doesn't mean that that crisis has gone away. And in fact maybe is even more piercing and like maybe gov, maybe the thing that threatened us threatens us all. Which you have like extraordinary experience with, especially in a month like this. As you think about where we were last year is climate. You know, like we gotta figure out a way to talk about the fact that we stupid ass moronic human beings are still chasing reservoirs of dead decaying shrimp all over the world that created petroleum reserves back in the Jurassic period. That's our fucking strategy for energy. That's not a strategy.

[Gavin Newsom]

Thank you. China gets it, bro. Hitting our clock. 70% of the EVs of manufacturing supply chains, building relationships, locking in and loading.

[Alex Wagner]

And what are we doing chasing dead shrimp. Dead shrimp. Dead Mesozoic shrimp.

[Gavin Newsom]

Let me ask you just on that because it's such a. There were a few topics and you implied it as it relates to the issue of reproductive freedom and it relates to women and girls. Girls and the fact that, you know, it's not as popular to talk about. And certainly if you look at any poll, people say it's a loser. And Kamala, you know, Democrats are insufficiently focused on the things that people really that matter to them. And we talk too much about culture and woke and climate and reproductive freedom and the like. How do you talk about these things are to your point? I mean what more evidence do we need? The hots are getting hotter, the dries are getting drier, the wets are getting wetter. These atmospheric rivers, floods, droughts, wildfires. You've got. Climate risk is financial risk. Climate risk is impacting our ability to get insurance, which is a home and affordability issue. It's a good. I mean this is serious like code. It's blinking red everywhere. But Democrats aren't even supposed to talk about it. We're just supposed to talk about kitchen table issues, about groceries.

[Alex Wagner]

I know.

[Gavin Newsom]

We're supposed to talk about utility bills, which is important. Boy. Wait. Utility bills and climate. Never thought about that. Connect. Forgive me, I just. You get the point. How the hell. How do we break that all the punditry class Newsom stopped talking. That's his hair. He goes again off on these wild eyes. You know what?

[Alex Wagner]

People don't like to believe that they're fallible. Right? Us Americans don't like to think that they. They we want to believe as a country. It's part of the actually awesomeness America is like we're impervious that. Go west, right?

[Gavin Newsom]

Go west, young man. Go west. Horace Greeley, this notion of the pioneer, this individual, I love it.

[Alex Wagner]

Rugged individual.

[Gavin Newsom]

Rugged individual.

[Alex Wagner]

Is it at odds with the DNA of this country to say there is, you know, existential threat that you individually cannot do anything about but collectively can. It's reweaving the sense of a common good. Right. That's fucking hard to do when the country's so divided.

[Gavin Newsom]

But Trump is not it isn't that what Isn't that kind of sense of community, that sort of organizing principle at the cost.

[Alex Wagner]

It. You know, Democrats need to be very blue states need to be very careful about not giving a about climate because red states are the first ones impacted. Accepting your incredible state, which is extraordinary.

[Gavin Newsom]

Isn'T it, by the way. No. In this blue state, the most impacted districts are dominantly Trump voting districts overwhelmingly talk about Paradise California, not pleasure. Paradise California. You talk about some of the grizzlies flag Greenville. All of these are in conservative parts of the state. The folks that he's not helping consistently punishing all across this country, including Arkansas, I mean Sanders had to beg former boss Arkansas. Tornadoes, hurricanes, floods, all of the south.

[Alex Wagner]

Texas people don't like, people don't like believing that the end could be near. Right. There has to be a reframing of the issue. I'm not a climate advocate, but I.

[Gavin Newsom]

Just think this alarmist thing referring to that we talked about it.

[Alex Wagner]

I believe that some kind of solutions can be had and that's, that's also climate mitigation. Like it's just going to get warmer and we got to make, we got to make choices and changes and the rich, you know, like the idea that Miami is just going to become the coastal province of people who can afford to have, you know, rebuild their homes or, or that parts of California are just going to become the province of people who can afford to lose their homes every couple years. Like that's not tenable. Everybody's going to have, have to pay a price, a steep one. And like people need to show that they're bearing the burden of, of, of the cost. I don't know the answer to it. I think it's also a fail of the news media to not be covering this through climate lens. I mean it is the single most.

[Gavin Newsom]

Nowhere to be found on these issues.

[Alex Wagner]

It is the greatest period my career as a journalist.

[Gavin Newsom]

I mean why is it honestly why in the cable network talking about the insurance crisis in this country in the context of it being climate is uninsurable finance, the financial impacts are off the charts. You want a next big crisis.

[Alex Wagner]

It is, it is.

[Gavin Newsom]

Connect the utility bills. It's not just data centers, folks. Trust me. I, and I don't. I mean it's so it's convenient to say that and there's a political lens when we say that. But look at what's been happening with, with the wildfire risks and the impacts that have had direct impact on your utility bills.

[Alex Wagner]

I mean it's it, it is it. The first thing you have to do is reintroduce it into the conversation because it's gone. Gone.

[Gavin Newsom]

It's gone.

[Alex Wagner]

And gun safety's gone. Gun safety's gone. And shooting abortions gone.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Alex Wagner]

I mean part of it is my, like this is kind of where we begin again at the Epstein and the.

[Gavin Newsom]

Things that sell and that sort of contemporary.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, catastrophe is hard. People would rather hear about the bad guy going down or salacious like they want to hear about scandal. And again, it's not that Epstein isn't worth covering. It is absolutely how are we covering it in the right way and do we need to only cover. Cover it.

[Gavin Newsom]

Why didn't you guys cover it four years ago, Three years ago at this level?

[Alex Wagner]

What? Epstein? Yeah, I think, I don't know. I would, I don't know the answer to that question. I would have to think back. I mean, I think every day you have to keep in mind there. And you know, my heart goes out to people who self to program cable news shows every night. Like my friend Chris Hayes is like, you know, he's in the foxhole. Right. There's so much that's happened.

[Gavin Newsom]

Next level. He's incredibly bright, isn't it? He.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, but I was on the podcast before him, right.

[Gavin Newsom]

I haven't had him on yet.

[Alex Wagner]

Okay, Jesus.

[Gavin Newsom]

I'm gonna test my own theory here. We're going to compare and contrast a Brown graduate. Where'd he go to school?

[Alex Wagner]

Brown.

[Gavin Newsom]

Oh God.

[Alex Wagner]

He went to Brown with me.

[Gavin Newsom]

Oh, geez. I, I.

[Alex Wagner]

Did you not know that?

[Gavin Newsom]

See back earlier and I don't have one, so I didn't even know that.

[Alex Wagner]

The cliches of msnbc, you guys are. Lord.

[Gavin Newsom]

See, I'm a simple guy. I don't get all you.

[Alex Wagner]

No, I mean academics and elites are here.

[Gavin Newsom]

Of course. Now I understand this, this Trump phenomenon.

[Alex Wagner]

Humble dynastic former mayor.

[Gavin Newsom]

That's right. Well, I mean I, I wasn't born as mayor, but let's get. That's what the book's about. You have to read my book.

[Alex Wagner]

Oh my God, I can't wait. I can't wait for my signed copy to arrive in the mail and the invitation. The 92nd Street.

[Gavin Newsom]

Why is that what we're going to do?

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, well, I mean it's inevitable.

[Gavin Newsom]

You have to do. Maybe, maybe, maybe I'm going to ask you to do.

[Alex Wagner]

Who is going to be better.

[Gavin Newsom]

I'm going to ask you for sure.

[Alex Wagner]

I'm fully in.

[Gavin Newsom]

This is good.

[Alex Wagner]

This is great. I'm servicing the debt and then when my book comes out.

[Gavin Newsom]

Oh gosh. You're like. Is that what this is about? Unbelievable. We'll have you back on your book. Yes. Which you apparently. But you won't even preview it.

[Alex Wagner]

I can't, I can't. It's called. It's about the. It's about the. It's actually, it's a. It's historical. It's about.

[Gavin Newsom]

It's historical because it's an historic project.

[Alex Wagner]

Because the magnitude is so great.

[Gavin Newsom]

Years.

[Alex Wagner]

It will be like the Bible. Maybe few. A few more copies. It is about the radicalization of the Supreme Court and the, the sort of plan that was hatched in the 1980s by a group of unlikely, really super weird arch conservative right wing activists in the shadow of the Reagan administration. And there are lessons in it for all.

[Gavin Newsom]

Reagan's old bedroom as we speak.

[Alex Wagner]

Wow. I mean.

[Gavin Newsom]

I mean the ghost. These should be promoted here.

[Alex Wagner]

It's very small.

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, this is small. It's a small.

[Alex Wagner]

They were small people.

[Gavin Newsom]

They were small.

[Alex Wagner]

This.

[Gavin Newsom]

But they weren't here long. Remember Nancy Reagan said this was a fire trap. So they left.

[Alex Wagner]

Smart. That was too definitely too small for you. The point is. The point is. I. I mean, I guess the point is. I don't remember the point. Other than.

[Gavin Newsom]

No, it's. It's about the Supreme Court. That's good.

[Alex Wagner]

It's about the Supreme Court.

[Gavin Newsom]

Supreme Court. Do you think they're going to get rid of the Voting Rights Act?

[Alex Wagner]

John Roberts is literally would been working on that brief since he was a Department of justice staffer in the Reagan administration.

[Gavin Newsom]

This is. Get ready. Put your. Your seat belt on. We're talking about 2026.

[Alex Wagner]

At least someone just redistricting props, bro.

[Gavin Newsom]

God bless. I appreciate I wasn't easy. I mean, you know, to be well supportive of something that now I need to be against in the context of. But it's.

[Alex Wagner]

It's dark.

[Gavin Newsom]

Fight fire with fire. This is.

[Alex Wagner]

You're just a house cat getting ready to go out into the wild and find some owls and mice to hunt.

[Gavin Newsom]

We can't continue to do what we've done. We'll get what we've got.

[Alex Wagner]

Exactly.

[Gavin Newsom]

Texas SONG but let me me. Let me go back a little bit just you know, and we'll go. You know, Earl Warren was here speaking in the Supreme Court and other.

[Alex Wagner]

I saw that plaque over the toilet bowl. It's at Earl War.

[Gavin Newsom]

No, actually we should probably put that. No, I think it's pretty amazing. I mean, of course I reminded. He also interned the Japanese. I mean as Rachel's reminded us on her podcast Outstanding podcast series. But let me go back to just the theory case with your podcast. So you. It's fundamentally about again breaking through and trying to find the essence of. Of the why. The why.

[Alex Wagner]

Humanity. Humanity.

[Gavin Newsom]

The humanity. The things that. That should connect and bind us all together. And that the fundamentally. That's the challenge today in our politics.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah.

[Gavin Newsom]

Is we're so divided. We're so just.

[Alex Wagner]

I mean alienated.

[Gavin Newsom]

Alienated from you know, and we're so unhappy as a consequence.

[Alex Wagner]

We're so lonely.

[Gavin Newsom]

So miserable. Lonely and unhappy. It is a hell of a thing, isn't it? How much. Much do you think media, in this case social media, algorithms. What's happening with AI is shape shifting where we are. And how concerned are you about that moving into 20, 26, 27, 28.

[Alex Wagner]

Huge. Yeah, huge. I mean, the social media thing has made us so covetous. Right. Materialistic in a way. Right?

[Gavin Newsom]

That's a Brown Word line 60.

[Alex Wagner]

I don't know. You know what it means, though. Context clues.

[Gavin Newsom]

I mean, well, I did. I did read the Bible a few times so that my nature neighbor. So I get a version of that. Thank you. So, by the way, Trump clearly hasn't. But that's another conversation, right?

[Alex Wagner]

He was like, turn to a page. Anyway, we've become.

[Gavin Newsom]

So, by the way, my. My Newsom Bible also sold out on the Patriot site. So if people are looking to purchase that, this is good. The Patriot site, it unfortunately currently is sold out. The knee pads are back. They were sold out. Just like the universities, just like our law firms, just like so many corporate leaders had as well.

[Alex Wagner]

This is a very good ad roll. Like you.

[Gavin Newsom]

I was just trying to go. No, I mean, I just.

[Alex Wagner]

You're just.

[Gavin Newsom]

This was not.

[Alex Wagner]

This is brought to you.

[Gavin Newsom]

We weren't breaking in.

[Alex Wagner]

It felt like a very natural, like, very seamless.

[Gavin Newsom]

You read your own ads on.

[Alex Wagner]

Yes, I do. Yes, I do like reading the ads. I feel like it's the 1940s. I'm like, well, listen, Sonny, you too could buy a. Being an American right now is a wild ride. The headlines come fast, but what do they actually, actually mean for people's lives? I'm Alex Wagner, and on my new crooked media podcast, Runaway Country, I'm talking to people across the nation to uncover how political chaos is shaping their everyday realities. Join me and some of the smartest thinkers in politics to ask how we take back the reins of a runaway nation. Listen to Runaway country with Alex Wagner every Thursday, wherever you get our podcasts or watch full episodes on YouTube.

[Gavin Newsom]

Anyway, so AI social media.

[Alex Wagner]

Social media has made us first of all envious, covetous, angry that we don't have as much as our neighbor, right? It's like, I think it goes to this baseline keeping up with the Joneses thing and puts it on steroids, right? It's like, well, they all their kids have matching pajamas at Christmas. Why the don't I, you know, on a basic, like, sort of jealousy level, that is bad. And then when we don't have those things and we don't have the life that people, you know, show or the looks that people, people like, you know, filter on social media, we become lonely, we come become unhappy when we, when we are feeling like conversation could be too awkward, or we don't want to go out and try out for the sports team, or we don't want to fucking go all the way to our neighbor's house. We find our community online with people that are disconnected from us and don't actually have our true selves at their heart. You know, I think we've really lost each other. We've really lost each other because of social media. Someone asked me the other day, if you could get rid of the Internet, would you? And I said, yeah, fucking 100% the Internet, period. Period. No more. If you had to choose Sophie's Choice Internet, no Internet, I'd say no Internet. Things were slower, things are faster, things are more mindless. Everything is negotiable or manipulative. What is it? Malleable? I mean, I just feel like we live in dangerously isolating times and we haven't. And I gotta say, man, I've buried my head in the sand with regards to AI. It's too much for my pee brain to handle. I was like around for 9, 11. I was like, oh, this is the fucked up thing that's going to happen to me. And my, this is my Pearl harbor turns out wrong. Like, it's the whole fucking cascade of shit that's happened in the first quarter of the 21st century. But AI is going to make it all worse. You know, the search for authenticity and true connection and community gets infinitely harder when you can marry an AI chatbot and like live in a fucking cone of silence, buying things online and, and educating yourself about the world through a screen. This is not good. I mean, you know, there are discreet ways we can combat it, but I think what we need are real thought leaders and real, like, you know, social shifts to move us away from this. With my kids, I'm terrified at them looking at the screen.

[Gavin Newsom]

How old are your kids?

[Alex Wagner]

Seven and no.

[Gavin Newsom]

Why are you laughing?

[Alex Wagner]

They're just props. They don't really exist.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah, right.

[Alex Wagner]

I can't believe I said the wrong.

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, no, that's not being edited by the way. We're sending it to your kids. Kids, actually.

[Alex Wagner]

They'll be like, you don't love us.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah. Unbelievable. You remember their names?

[Alex Wagner]

Six and eight. They're six and eight. No one in the family is seven. I, I picked a number that no one is.

[Gavin Newsom]

Jesus.

[Alex Wagner]

They're six and eight and they're boys.

[Gavin Newsom]

Oh.

[Alex Wagner]

And so boys.

[Gavin Newsom]

And that's a unique. Oh, that's a whole another week and then spend. We've spent many hours on this podcast.

[Alex Wagner]

On this particular talking about boys and lovers.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah. And. And technology. But what, I mean, should we ban. I mean we ban in school. We're one of the first big states to ban cell phones in schools. But. But again, these. You said the word discrete ways which suggests and implies by definition, hardly consequential.

[Alex Wagner]

Well, I don't know.

[Gavin Newsom]

What about banning under the age of 16 like Australia did?

[Alex Wagner]

I mean, I guess, I think yes, maybe like, I don't think that that's gonna fundamentally solve the problem because people's entire social habits have changed our around phones and it is going to be very hard to pry that from a certain generation. Like what you need to do, I mean, I think it's like begins almost in utero. It's like you have to start making decisions real early with these kids. And I think the thing we need to do both as you know, journalists or politicians or children of this country is to get the fuck outside. Like people need to physically move their bodies outside of the door. My kids are now enrolled in like every single single sport. I have no time in the evening because I just push them into sports. And we as human beings need to go out for cocktails and have more sex and do things with other human bodies.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Alex Wagner]

It sounds so elemental, but it is.

[Gavin Newsom]

One of every two boys has not asked a woman out in person. They don't even know how. It's so one out of seven don't even have a close friend. I mean, it's. I mean literally a friend. One friend.

[Alex Wagner]

The human body needs to move outside with other human body bodies. I mean literally it is the most evolutionary basic. Homo homo sapien sapien. Homo homo sapien.

[Gavin Newsom]

I don't remember.

[Alex Wagner]

Whichever one it is, this is.

[Gavin Newsom]

I mean, if you went to Harvard.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah. I would know.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yes.

[Alex Wagner]

Like Lawrence o'. Donnell.

[Gavin Newsom]

Okay. With the whole line up there. Maybe that's the issue.

[Alex Wagner]

That's. Well, not this one. No, this kid's on.

[Gavin Newsom]

Where did Rachel go? Where's she. Oh, interesting. I'm just.

[Alex Wagner]

I don't know. Hogwarts and she's a wizard. I don't know.

[Gavin Newsom]

That's good. I mean, that's. I appreciate the brag there. That's good.

[Alex Wagner]

Like she went to a University of California school. Or Yale. She's.

[Gavin Newsom]

Or Yale. We haven't, We've established Brown Harvard. We haven't thrown in the Yale.

[Alex Wagner]

This is such a gross conversation. Can we please cut it for the podcast? But anyway, like it literally, people are just, I think we may be sometimes over complicated. I literally think, think it begins with take your flesh and bones and move them outside the door.

[Gavin Newsom]

There's not a parent out there that's not just shaking their head, of course going, absolutely.

[Alex Wagner]

But even as, and it's a great.

[Gavin Newsom]

Struggle and here's the problem because even.

[Alex Wagner]

As adults we need to do that.

[Gavin Newsom]

Here's the adults, they're sitting there on their phone saying, hey, honey, take the phone away. You should go outside.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, honey, exactly.

[Gavin Newsom]

Excuse me. No, honey, honey, I, I said go, go, go outside. I mean you got.

[Alex Wagner]

That's.

[Gavin Newsom]

And they, they trying to model some good behavior.

[Alex Wagner]

That's the modeling is everything but human beings things. Guys need to go out and have a beer with their friends. Girls.

[Gavin Newsom]

You sound like Scott Galloway. It's like he's just promoting drinking. I mean. Oh, he's saying like get to the bar, get. I mean, I'm drinking now. People aren't even drinking.

[Alex Wagner]

Cost benefit analysis. I'll take this. It's interesting.

[Gavin Newsom]

You have a similar, similar. So you do. Are you, are you worried about sort of this nihilism that, that sort of creeping in? You got the first generation in the history of this country, first ever 30 year olds not doing better than their parents. I mean that's code red. And this is why Bernie was. I mean this is interesting. And Trump picked up this populist frame from one side of the other side of the coin. You've got the Bernie frame which is saying this economy is not nourishing. They were not providing family supporting jobs. The imbalance of the rich and poor is at historic levels. 10% of people and 2/3 of wealth does. 10% are 50% of our consumer spending. You look at the markets, it's not the s and P500, it's really S&P7 of which really one or two stocks that are 15, 16% of that total. Nvidia in particular, then maybe Apple half that, probably 7% of the S P's improvement. 16, 15, 16 Nvidia. But the point being this is not sustainable.

[Alex Wagner]

No.

[Gavin Newsom]

So do you, do you subscribe? I mean, do you then? I imagine you do. It's sort of, it's a. The question's not even a question, it's more of a statement or it's more just an affirmation perhaps of a deeper understanding of why these young kids feel like, what the hell's the point?

[Alex Wagner]

Well, yeah, I mean we, we're destroying the earth, we're destroying the economy. We're Destroying the democracy. We've been very, very destructive years of our. Our stewardship.

[Gavin Newsom]

Do you feel you're more negative the last few years than you've been the prior five, six, seven years?

[Alex Wagner]

I'm not. You know why? I. I take this from one of my friends who said, we're so lucky to be alive when the stakes are so high and to have put ourselves, I love that. In positions where we can actually try and change the map path.

[Gavin Newsom]

I feel like that is. Governor, what a gift. Instead of screaming and yelling at you, listening your podcast or watching Lawrence and just wanting to, you know, I mean, feeling like I can do something about it.

[Alex Wagner]

What a gift.

[Gavin Newsom]

Everyone can do something about it. No Kings rally. We all showed up.

[Alex Wagner]

Yes, people, we are alive.

[Gavin Newsom]

You're not bystanders.

[Alex Wagner]

People, we are alive.

[Gavin Newsom]

So I like this. We need to stay in this space. But is that because, I mean, it all matters. Was it your friend who said this and then that you sincerely said, said I've shifted my mindset or kind of.

[Alex Wagner]

No, really. I mean, I think you can be on, like, especially in news, you know, you just, like, getting beaten, bruised every day, right?

[Gavin Newsom]

Every day.

[Alex Wagner]

And the game is to put on the band aids and get the hell back out there. Like, this is what matters. This is our. I mean, not to sound overly, you know, sort of churchy about it, but this is like our time in the light. Like, this is our shot, you know, and you can go through it numb, feeling, like, a lot less, or you can, like, open yourself up to the elements and surrender to the times in which you were born and, like, fight like hell. And there is no question that everything today has consequences. And if you can be part of a consequence that turns us towards good and delightness and fairness and equity, then, like, in whatever way, you know, whether it's just pushing your kid out the door and making that kid have a better day and a better moment in his sunlight, or whether it's actually doing things like policy and changing the course of the country, all of it fucking matters. And it is extraordinary to be in times when the expectations are so urgent and the work is so important. So I don't feel bad. I genuinely think about it sometimes when I'm like, are you fucking kidding? War with Venezuela, right? But then you think, okay, what are we going to do to sort of make this story live in the way that it should?

[Gavin Newsom]

I mean, I could go to Colombia, Cuba. We can talk about Greenland, baby. We can talk about Greenland, baby.

[Alex Wagner]

Greenland, baby.

[Gavin Newsom]

I think that's Kingdom of Denmark. One of the founding members of NATO. We could talk about the end of NATO. We could talk about Putin and XI and how they're feeling about all these things that their permission slips or. Or was it a tactical and brilliant move that weakens people like Putin because he's envious. He couldn't take zelensky out in 30 minutes. He couldn't deal with the. With his proxies in Iran and Syria, couldn't have their back. And maybe this destabilization has put all of them on notice. I don't know. But we can get in all that. But I want to stay in the positive because I want to focus.

[Alex Wagner]

No, I mean, I've been roads on.

[Gavin Newsom]

There's a lot. Yeah, we'll have to unpack all of these things. So we'll bring in Jake Sullivan and. And some of our other friends. We've had Hassan, We've had Brett Runner from her.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, we've had a.

[Gavin Newsom]

We've had her share. We'll keep going. I love all this stuff, but I. But I also love just the practical. And I want to just end because you're being so positive and we all need. It's the new year.

[Alex Wagner]

Not enough.

[Gavin Newsom]

It's in the spirit of Tony Robbins New Year. New you.

[Alex Wagner]

So smart at the heart.

[Gavin Newsom]

Smart at the heart. You talked about heart. We.

[Alex Wagner]

We very touchy feely. Emotionally, I feel like it's an emotional. Emotionally, it's a cuddly. It's a cut, not cuddly. There's plenty of curse words. But it is a new year and like, don't go into it with your head hanging down low.

[Gavin Newsom]

Right? Of course, man. Come on. And. No, of course not. And it's a matter of choice. It's whatever. There's a truism in life. Whatever you focus on, you find more of. Whatever you focus on, you find more of. And so start coloring in what's right in your life, coloring what's right in terms of your relationships, what's right in terms of our politics. And I think you'll find. Find more of it. And it's abundant. I mean, it's not. So I think that's one of the ways of not quite literally, not figuratively manifesting a greater sense of optimism and hope and this notion that you have agency, that you can shape the future. You're not. You're not a bystander. We're not passive victims. We have the ability to shape things. And I think we did. And let me end on this. We did in 2025. I think we ended on 2025 very powerfully. You saw that in terms of the ascendancy of new voices, new leaders. You know, one could quibble about your flavor of leadership, but in. In places like New York, obviously, in New Jersey and Virginia, and then these smaller races in Bucks county and places in Georgia, you saw this. You've seen it. And by the way, state house is one of the biggest stories.

[Alex Wagner]

Yes.

[Gavin Newsom]

Is how we are dominating. They got the memo in state Senate. I'm old enough to remember, thank you.

[Alex Wagner]

Yes. When it was like, hey, guys, they have, like, 37 state houses. Republicans have like, like a vast majority.

[Gavin Newsom]

Where was I two years ago? I was with you in the south talking precisely about this issue. Until the Democratic Party focuses on that which are state houses and get off this guy and gal on the white horse to come save the day that our obsession with the next Obama, as opposed to obsessing about the hard work. Yeah, it's grit, but it's also progress. And we're seeing that progress now being promoted across the country because people are waiting, waking up. The no Kings rally, people are waking up. So in that spirit of optimism, we take back the House. What is it, 90 chance, 80 chance?

[Alex Wagner]

I'm so bad at prognostication. I think it's gonna. Listen, it's gonna be tight. It's gonna be hard.

[Gavin Newsom]

You think so?

[Alex Wagner]

I don't know. I just. I. Well, I don't know.

[Gavin Newsom]

You burst my bubble here. I had a whole.

[Alex Wagner]

No, I think. No, no, no, I think a crescendo.

[Gavin Newsom]

Listen, now, now, we. Sorry, folks, we may have to extend this a little.

[Alex Wagner]

No, I think they will take back the House. I think Trump's mismanagement of literally everything is going to redound to his disadvantage. Corruption and just the clear disinterest in the basic, basic reason he was sent back to office, which was to make life more affordable for people. And he's just doing everything in his power not to do that. It is remarkable, but. And he's, like, fallen asleep and, like, taking too many aspirin.

[Gavin Newsom]

Physical things are.

[Alex Wagner]

Are quite sleepy, Joe.

[Gavin Newsom]

Real.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, sleepy, Don. So I do think, and I think that that is going to change the dynamic. I think it will be a huge shot in the arm for the country to have a party in power that is acting as a bulwark against the worst impulses of this administration that is going to make, you know, Republicans vote on some of the hateful shit that they put out there and just sort of like, pretend didn't exist. And I just think it will be a real moment for Democrats to circle the wagons and decide. Decide what they're really all about. And that needs to happen. It's been too.

[Gavin Newsom]

Meaning what is shape shifting? Not just our opposition and being defined by the opposition, but what's our positive alternative vision?

[Alex Wagner]

What is the vision for the country? So I think it's gonna be a huge year, you know, and I think they're gonna be a lot of twists and turns, but the. The democracy, the wound is still intact, you know, and it's like, believe in it. Be part of it. Get out there, do the thing, you.

[Gavin Newsom]

Know, do the thing. Well, you're doing the thing. The Swiss army knife, in many ways.

[Alex Wagner]

Did you didn't like the House Cat in the Wild?

[Gavin Newsom]

I loved it. It's the third time you've used it, which is unbelievable believable. So it's just trying to make it trademarked. Now it's yours. Now it is. It's officially no one. No one will dare, dare take.

[Alex Wagner]

I actually have a house cat who got out the other day and I was like, francisco, Francisco, come back.

[Gavin Newsom]

Are you. I wouldn't even bring up J.D. vance. I could have gone there with the.

[Alex Wagner]

You know, the mogging.

[Gavin Newsom]

Oh, what's the mog?

[Alex Wagner]

Oh, my God. You need to know about this. It's a. Basically a man's beauty. Man's beauty. It's an Internet thing, and the Internet thinks that you're a way better mogger than he is. That means they don't think you're obese and they would vote for you more.

[Gavin Newsom]

Oh, good. So this is my 10 point affordability strategy.

[Alex Wagner]

Google it and you'll be happy. I'll. I'll send it.

[Gavin Newsom]

Do you still say Google it?

[Alex Wagner]

Oh, I. I mean, like, I still say, we did it, Joe. I still.

[Gavin Newsom]

30 years old earlier. Was it 30 years?

[Alex Wagner]

I mean, about to be 30.

[Gavin Newsom]

Okay. I was about to be 30. I was just checking. But that would be right then.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah. I was born in 1990. 95. He's laughing.

[Gavin Newsom]

Were you actually 95?

[Alex Wagner]

Dude? I'm like, almost 50.

[Gavin Newsom]

Are you almost 50?

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah.

[Gavin Newsom]

That's unbelievable.

[Alex Wagner]

Deep plain facelift.

[Gavin Newsom]

All right. What a way to end Alex Wagner, everybody.

[Alex Wagner]

Thanks for having me on. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.