← This is Gavin Newsom
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- [00:01]
Tim Miller
Does it scare you that it's over?
- [00:02]
Gavin Newsom
Governor's race ends and I got a sell by day. I'm a milk carton man.
- [00:06]
Tim Miller
My whole childhood is my side. The Republicans were the suits, right? We flipped. Now the Democrats are the suits, the scolds and the establishment. Why are we bombing boats in the Caribbean? Why are we bulldozing the East Wing? Why do you care so much about your peace prize? Made three trips overseas and no trips to Red America. Trump is for once making a normal politician mistake.
- [00:27]
Gavin Newsom
And hey Tim, thank you so much for taking the time by the way. And I know it's taking the time because as seen on TV Tim Miller.
- [00:35]
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- [00:37]
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- [00:40]
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- [01:10]
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- [01:12]
Tim Miller
Who wouldn't?
- [01:12]
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- [01:40]
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- [02:49]
Ryan Reynolds
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- [03:10]
Tim Miller
Of $45 for three month plan equivalent.
- [03:12]
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- [03:16]
Tim Miller
If network's busy, taxes and fees extra.
- [03:18]
Gavin Newsom
See mintmobile.com Every time I turn on cable. How many hits a day do you do with MS? How many?
- [03:24]
Tim Miller
Oh, I'm doing more Bulwark YouTube hits than Ms. Too. I'm just grinding. It is a content grind, all right? I' the content minds. I'm just shoveling away. Okay, now it's not, you know, there's, there's harder jobs. You know, I'm not queen shoveling coal, but it's, it's a, it's, you know, it's a grind.
- [03:42]
Gavin Newsom
So what is it? I mean, seriously, in terms of just content now in order to stay relevant and sort of stay in, you know, just the stream of consciousness. I mean, give us a sense of your day. What's your, you wake up, what's your morning routine? How does it start?
- [03:55]
Tim Miller
Yeah, well, part of the reason why you see me a lot is you're on Pacific time. I don't do any morning Ms. Ms. Now. We're calling it Ms. Now. Now I take the daily bullet pod every day at 9 Central. And so luckily my husband's taking my daughter to school most days. He's gone this week. So I gotta, I gotta, I'm like reading Twitter, reading X and, and driving and doing unsafe driving to school this week. But you know, usually like seven to nine. I'm just seeing everything that's out there. Reading, consuming tape. The pod at nine every day. And then it's like off to the races, man. I'm like just, just either consuming other people's stuff or taping stu the evening. I do a little parenting after that. You know, this little child time. And after dinner she goes to bed and then I Sit in front of the tv. My husband usually does a weed gummy and puts on something he likes. Or, or if basketball's on, I'll put on basketball. And then I'm just like, multitasking, double screening a little tv mostly. Mostly preparing for the next day.
- [04:56]
Gavin Newsom
What's your. When you prepare for the morning, the morning of. What are you reading? Are you reading the Economist? Or is it just Wall Street Journal blogs? What do you. What do you. What. What's your morning read?
- [05:07]
Tim Miller
Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, I do, I do all the newsletters just to see whatever reason you're about to hear me being a former Republican right now, you know who's good at still, even at this day and age, is Drudge. Drudge tells you what is out there. And I like. And it's just a good way for me to like, because then I'm reading all the different outlets because he's already curated that shit for me. So shout out to Drudge. But, you know, I read the Politico Axios morning newsletters, all the other ones that people do. Bullock's morning newsletter is good. And, and you know, I'm also like, trying to listen to like, what other, like, newsmakers were doing. You know, like, if you were doing somebody else's show, like, I go to listen to that. You're going to X speed, you know, so you're a chipmunk voice to try to like, hear what you like, what you guys are talking about, like what the other big podcast interviews were from the day before. I want to hear what other people are talking about. Whatever my guest has done recently, I'm listening to what they're doing. So. And then I'm also like maga. Like, I'm deep in the Magaverse. I kind of switch back and forth. Right now I'm on to ban. I do Bannon. Tim Dillon's podcast, Candace, is kind of my little treat because I just want to hear, you know, which French Israeli assassins are coming together this week. Who else do I do sometimes? Patrick. Bet David, you got to know what the MAGA freaks are talking about too.
- [06:23]
Gavin Newsom
No, I love that. What about. Are you a fox? I mean, at nighttime when your husband's on that. That gummy and you. And there's no Denver Nugget game. I mean, you flipping over to. To Gretchen.
- [06:33]
Tim Miller
You know, I don't, I don't sub family to this stuff, like, just for their mental health and for the sake of everybody's. Like, I don't watch a ton of cable because, you know, that's on the tv. It's like, usually it's stuff that's in my ear. So, like, that's why I'm more podcast focused. Like, I will, you know, there's Fox clips going around on Social. I watch those. I'm a Fox guy on the plane. So people sitting next to me on the plane, if they don't recognize me, they might think I'm a maga, because that's planes and hotels is when I get my Fox, I can kind of binge that way, see what those guys are talking about. And that's about my only, my only Fox exposure.
- [07:11]
Gavin Newsom
I'm curious, just in terms of the Bulwark itself, I mean, imagine when. How long did you guys start the Bulwark? How old is it now?
- [07:19]
Tim Miller
Yeah, it started as literally a side hustle back about, God, six years ago now coming up in 2019, basically a year before the 2020 election. And the Weekly Standard is that old Neocon magazine got shut down. The owner, Phil Anschutz, was not happy that Bill Kristol and Charlie Sykes and some others were speaking out against Trump and they wanted to get in good graces of Trump and so they shut down the magazine. And my colleague now, Sarah Longwell, was trying to start something new and it wasn't really getting off the ground. And then when the Weekly Standards shut down, she grabbed a couple of those guys and asked them to help her start something. And me and her world friend, she asked me if I could also help out a couple months later. And so it started then. And I think that all of us kind of thought it was a thing that we do till the 2020 election. It was just something like he. We wanted to have a home for never Trumpers, somewhere where they could gather, do news and commentary. Maybe we could have a platform to, from our perspective, explain why people should move away from Trump. And this was so during the Biden Trump first election. And it just took off by accident. And this is going to feel like a humble brag, but we weren't even really trying to create a media company, but it just really connected with people. I think it was. When you hear from people, it's mostly that it just felt like we weren't bullshitting them. We're not a typical political pundit. I'm not looking for my next job, all that kind of stuff. The fact that we were former Republicans and we were kind of without a home gave us a freedom that allowed us to be a little bit more blunt, I think, than what you see from other stuff out there. And the audience led us. Basically, it took off and it went from being a side hustle to a real company, you know, a couple years in. And we, you know, kind of flipped the switch from it being like a non profit thing that we were doing because we wanted to speak out against Trump to like an actual media effort.
- [09:21]
Gavin Newsom
And when you were there, were you sort of wearing a couple of hats? Were you still doing consulting? Were you still doing all the usual work?
- [09:28]
Tim Miller
Yeah, initially I was still doing consulting. I was doing still ms, but less. I was like a guest person on the circus. So I was doing some media stuff, but I had some PR clients and then I had some political clients. Like I said, it wasn't like a traditional. I didn't really see myself as a media person or a journalist at the time. In 2020, in addition to doing the Bulwark, I was doing Republican Voters Against Trump, which was the full time job. I was a political director of that. That was more of a grassroots effort to get videos from people who used to be Republicans to explain why they weren't voting for Trump in 2020. And so it was basically after that election, I can't remember the exact timeline, but a little while when we realized it was resonating with people that I just said, no, okay, I'm done. So I got rid of all my PR stuff, stopped doing all, and just. I got some good advice from a mentor who's just like, you can't do both well. You got to pick a route. And so I've kind of myself and others of the Bulwark sort of decided, okay, we're going to lean into this. And I couldn't be happier, man. I got to tell you, every time a PR flag sends me a pitch like, I want you to get my boss on your podcast, I feel bad. I just. It just warms my soul. I'm like, this, this could have been me. There's an alternate timeline where I'm begging, you know, I'm begging Gavin Newsom. I'm like, hey, will you have my client, the CEO is trying to do thought leadership. Well, you have him on the Gavin Newsom show, you know, and. And so I'm happy about that life switch. It's been good to me, you know, what was in.
- [10:55]
Gavin Newsom
But when, when did that switch happen with you? I mean, obviously you grew up and I, I don't. I don't know if some of the origin stories are true, that you literally got goosebumps watching a Bob Dole speech.
- [11:06]
Tim Miller
That's True.
- [11:07]
Gavin Newsom
By the way, this. I, of course, you probably said it because no one has ever uttered those words in history, so it's likely that's true.
- [11:15]
Tim Miller
Good oppo. One of the other things in my origin story is I started a Republican oppo research firm, and that's the dark part of the origin story. So we don't need to go through that whole timeline. But that's good oppo on me. I know it when I see was true, man. I. Look, I told that story, I think, in part because I think that everybody that get, you know, there's a reason that I think people are cynical about politics is because a lot of people in politics are cynical, you know, and they become cynical over time. But pretty much everybody that gets into politics got into it because at the start there was like a little ember of something that was real. And like, I, it was a little bit for Bob Dole. For me, I mean, I'm a little cheeky, but I did get, I did get goosebumps watching Bob Dole. I do remember that. And, but, you know, I believed in like, the. America is a shining city on the Hill. We like free markets and free people and back to back World War II champ, World War champs and all that. I believe that as a young Republican, I was into that part of that America is great, and that we should try to live up to the ideals that the country has espoused. And Bob Dole did that in his speech, and so did all the Republicans in their convention speeches that I watched as a kid and then growing up. And I think that, to me was, the thing about Trump was like, it brought back a little bit of my earnestness because, know, you get into politics, you start working for candidates, you start spinning on behalf of them, you start bullshitting on behalf of them. You care more about winning, you know, losing the game of it, then you care about why you got into it. I think this happens to a lot of people, and Trump got in there and I was like, wait a minute. All the things, all the reasons that got that I was earnest about this at the start. He's not for any of those things. He's shitting on all of those things, you know, And I think that in some way that was, I hate to give Trump credit for anything, but, like, that was like a gift to me to like, kind of get me, I think back, focused on the things that I actually like, genuinely cared about, rather than in like the stupid politics of politics.
- [13:12]
Gavin Newsom
And your politics were aligned in that spirit. Sort of a compassionate conservatism rallying the armies of compassion, breaking the toll booth down to the middle class, sort of Bushisms, but with Jeb Bush, formally with Huntsman and some gubernatorial campaigns, Nikki Haley and others. So, you know, was it, I mean, was it the escalator and in Trump, or did it come after the escalator in 2015 and Trump, where you started listening to this? Or was it. Was it those debates with Jeb and were you like, who the hell is this wrecking ball? Who's this T. Rex?
- [13:46]
Tim Miller
God, I wanted to get up there and debate and debate them, you know? No, honestly, man, this is why, like, sometimes Democrats or liberals or whatever will come up to me and be like, thank you for doing this, for your courage and standing out. Like, it wasn't that for me. It just wasn't a close call. Like, I didn't like Trump from the second I didn't like it. Back in 2012, you mentioned the Huntsman campaign. Remember in 2012, Romney went to Vegas to get Trump's endorsement. I'm with Huntsman at the time. I end up being with Romney in the general, but I'm with Huntsman in the primary and we're mocking him. We mocked him both internally and publicly. Huntsman did. Publicly. I was like, this is embarrassing. Why are you doing this? This guy is a phony, He's a racist, and we shouldn't be coddling up to him. And so I didn't like him way before the escalator. And his whole campaign, to me, was just an affro to everything that I shared about. I didn't, here's a mission against interest, because I'm supposed to be like a political analyst. I didn't believe he could win. Up until the minute he did, I just did it. I even thought in the primary, I was like, eventually, when it gets down to Trump against Cruz or Trump against Rubio, people will come to their senses. I misjudged him totally as a political force initially. I mean, no longer, obviously, but I found him totally repulsive in every level from the second I saw him.
- [15:09]
Gavin Newsom
And so it begs then the question that you've in some respect answered. There wasn't a moment in that campaign then where you said, this guy's gonna win. I mean, you kept, I imagine seeing those moments like, there's no, he's not a war hero comments, McCain. There's no way this guy gets through until he did.
- [15:28]
Tim Miller
Yeah, no, I mean, no, I would say, yeah, I. I guess I would say this. And I knew he was going to beat us by like October. So don't get me wrong, I didn't think Trump was a total joke. Like, I just, I felt like, and I knew the Republican Party was a base of support for him. I just didn't know if it was 50 plus one. And to me, the moment actually was after Jeb had already lost. And I was working on an anti Trump super PAC at the time. And you remember that debate with Rubio where Rubio makes fun of him and says he's got small hands, but Rubio basically says he has a small dick, the current Secretary of state. And I was like, I watched that debate and I thought, okay, this is the moment that it turns for him, right? Trump has lost the alpha, Pat. People will be like, okay, we can't go at this con. We'll pivot that, you know, the voters will pivot back. And the opposite happened. Rubio ends up apologizing to him. Trump gains more. And for me, it was at that moment I was like, oh, man, he's going to win the primary for sure. And the general again. And he did lose the popular vote in the general. I think that the thing that I missed, looking back, because there was never a moment I thought Hillary was going to win. I'll just admit it. The thing that I missed is that I thought that there's always this thing I went Back to In 2012 after Romney lost, where Stuart Stevens, who's a fellow never Trumper, was Romney's chief strategist. He said during our kind of autopsy process, he's like, look, Romney got the same amount of the white vote that Reagan got in his landslide election and he lost. He's like, there's not much, that much more juice to squeeze out of the white vote. We're maximizing. We got to do better with voters of color. So I just kind of thought that Trump was never going to be able to get enough vote from minority communities. And little did we know in 2016 that, that the white vote, we weren't even close to the max. Like, Trump got a working class white vote that was just off the charts. And, and he just totally changed how, you know, the, the coalitions and, and then obviously in 24, we can talk about this, he ends up doing better with working class black and brown voters do. But, you know, so for me, like that, I just, I just misjudged, you know, that whether there'd be enough votes for somebody like him was a total mistake.
- [17:41]
Gavin Newsom
I want to go back to his appeal and, and try to get a little forensics in terms of relationship to understanding the why. Yeah, he's, he's, he's as successful as he is. But I'm curious. You know, you wrote a book, best selling book. And you, you, it was, it was humorous book, it was very insightful book. It was universally praised for being just self critical and honest and reflective in terms of just the mask that so many people put on. And a lot of people's faces grew into them. Yours didn't necessarily grow into it. You, you, you, you felt some complicity as a Republican, but you started to recognize these larger trend lines and, and these deviations from sort of traditional conservatism and the like. But walk us through that. Just, I, I mean, I know this is old territory for you and I don't want to pave over the cow path over and over on this, but, but I am curious, just your own reflections on just why others decided to sell. I don't want to say it, but I got some knee pads behind me. The Trump, the Trump signature Siri knee pads. Why they decided just to bend the knee. Sell out, is it? You wrote about it, but maybe you can illuminate us a little bit more.
- [18:52]
Tim Miller
Sure. And I focused on the D.C. political class. So let me answer that question. Based on that, I do think it's totally different if you're analyzing voters, like why did voter, like regular voters go for him? Like why the D.C. political class get put on the knee pads? And I think back to one of the conversations I had with like a consultant for the book. And he wasn't one of the main characters in the book because he didn't want to go on the record and he's on background. But I still did a bunch of those interviews anyway, just because sometimes you learn things when people are just telling you the truth if they don't think their name's going to be on it. And he said, look man, he's like, I'm doing ads for Republican candidates. My wife is mad at me. All my friends think, all of her friends think I'm a racist. It's creating problems in our life. Everybody's shit talking us. And he's like, I feel like I know he's a clown, but the only choice I have is to look at the one or two things that I agree with him on and really hold on to those and ride herd with him. And I felt like that was the most revealing conversation I had because it's a pretty embarrassing thing to say, actually. He said that and I was kind of like, you realize that I'm still gonna know you said this, even though I'm not gonna put your name on it. But anyway, I thought it was honest. It was an honest moment. I think that there's just a claw. You get into a club in D.C. and you don't, you don't want to have to admit that like your side is the bad side. You know, you, you want to still have, you want, you want to still have career. You know, part of its money, of course, part of its access to power, part of it's a feeling of relevance, I think, particularly for kind of men. Their job is so tied to kind of their significance as a person, you know, and their, their self esteem. And I think like that that was it. It's more of just like a cultural element of D.C. where it was like it was easier to go along with something that I know is bad at some level than it is to say, okay, I screwed up, I was wrong, or than it is to say, oh man, I'm going to go out into the wilderness, I'm going to go take a different job. That is less important seeming. I think that that was a lot of it. And you see this with the politicians in Washington too. They just want to be in the mix. That is the phrase I kept coming back to more than anything. I think that everybody, a lot of different careers have different issues. You know, if you're in Hollywood, you want to be famous. If you're in New York and finance, you want to have money. In politics, all of us, we have it, man. I have it, like is this kind of sense of I want to be in the mix, I want to feel like I matter, you know, and, and sometimes that's more important. I don't know what you think about this even in like having power, because like, having power has like responsibility associated with it. Like being around power and like being able to feel like you're, you know, sort of BSing with people and that, you know, the inside scoop, that's easy. Like that's, that's feeling important without having responsibility. And to me, there are a lot of different reasons for different people, but that's the one that I think describes why most of these guys stuck around with him.
- [21:52]
Gavin Newsom
Yeah, I'm reminded just in terms of just the appearance of power and having power of Havel, who said that when he became president, Czechoslovakia, it de genius him. He talked about the constraints of office and that at the peak of his influence, he had the kind of influence that Gandhi had, who never served a day as prime minister, King Never served a day as president. And that was moral authority and, of course, time in jail. He talked about the fact he was more powerful in many respects in jail than he was as president of his reflective country. I'm taking liberties here, but it's in the spirit of what you're saying in terms of just being in the midst.
- [22:30]
Tim Miller
One example, maybe this will resonate with you. But, like, I don't know. I think about. There's a quote from Chris Christie was on, like, a different podcast. I was listening to him, and he's like, you leave the governor's office and the lights turn off and nobody's calling you anymore. And he's like. And he's talking about it as, like, as he's describing it, I think he wants sympathy, but it sounds kind of like, sad. It's just like he's saying, like, this was the hardest thing I had to deal with. I had to deal with all this stuff. But, like, the most hard thing was that, like, I left Drumthwacket and nobody called me. And I think that all those guys in the Senate and the House and women, they look at Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger and some of your listeners that look at them and say, man, that is so great. They'll be able to tell their kids that they did this great thing and they have all this recognition. But the guys on the Hill look at them, they say, what does Liz Cheney do in the morning? Like, is she doing. She's just being a mother and a gr. Like, she doesn't have a job now. Nobody's calling her. Nobody's. You know, that, like, that, like, feeling of importance is. Is the ticket for a lot of these guys.
- [23:27]
Gavin Newsom
You know, it so resonates with me. I'll never forget the first speech I gave when I was mayor elect and I did the same as governor elect. I said, I'm the future ex mayor of San Francisco. I said the same thing. A future ex governor having that mindset that the temporary nature of this, but also the freedom that comes from that and not trying to hold on to that and become someone you're not. It's so. I mean, I've seen that. I've seen. It's interesting Chris said that, Governor Christie, but I've seen that over all my life. I've seen that. And you're right, it's. There is a. You develop a little empathy for it. I know people call it pathetic, etc. But it is what it is. And you're right, people are, you know, punch drunk there they live way past their prime time and they're just desperate to be something and they've forgotten that it's not about being something about.
- [24:10]
Tim Miller
It's gonna scare you a little bit. Does it scare you that it's over? Governor's race ends and yeah, you gotta.
- [24:16]
Gavin Newsom
I gotta sell by date. I gotta, I'm a milk carton man. I mean, I'm, I'm well aware of it. And everyone's talking about who's the next governor. Like, I don't want to talk about it because it's, honestly, it's hard. It's like, Jesus, I'm still governor, I'm still. But I had the gift and I don't want to get too much into me here at all into me. But the gift was having gone through this as an ex mate mayor. And I'll never forget, I mean, literally walking downstairs as everyone was walking upstairs, all the press and Everybody else, including 90 of my old staff for the new mayor and they're swearing in. It was like no one cared. Literally, game over. They care. They, you thought they cared about what you thought two days prior, two days later, you don't matter. Which proves that, you know, your status today, you know, a little bit of humility, a little bit of grace. It's the desk, it's the phone. It ain't about you, brother. You know, and, and you come and.
- [25:08]
Tim Miller
Go, yeah, say yeah, and that's it. I, you want, I feel like people want something. When they asked me about this, why Republicans went along with them, something a little deeper than that because it like feels so shallow. It's like, really, that's it. They just want it, they just want to feel important and get phone calls and go on Air Force One and it's like, yeah, like that's what it is for most of them.
- [25:28]
Gavin Newsom
Yeah, it's, it's about, it should be. I, I'm with you. And I think the people that thrive are the ones that have a, a meaning, purpose, mission, and are willing to buck conventional wisdom, say what they think, take risks, learn from their mistakes, make mistakes, be accountable and evolve, listen, grow, be human. And I, you know, I hope politics is starting to reward a little bit of that. And I, it pulls me back now. Do you think part of Trump's secret sauce is that perception that I don't need this, I'm so rich, I'd rather be golfing, I'm doing this for you. How many times he said that in debates, how many times he's tried to bloviate, you know, that he was able to sell that, at least to people.
- [26:10]
Tim Miller
Yeah, right. They're coming after me like, I'm stand. I'm the one standing between them coming after you, all that kind of stuff. I do. Look, Trump has a lot of skills. You know, you hate to give him any credit for anything, but, like, he's won twice. So, like, you have to just acknowledge it, right, and say, what can we learn from it? Sometimes I worry that Democrats, like, learn about the wrong things because he's, like, he does so much right, and it's like, what is actually resonating. And. And I think that, like, the sense that he's not a conventional politician has benefited him so much. And it's just. And. And a lot of it is like, what's the old Supreme Court line about porn? Like, you know it when you see it. Like, it's hard. Like, sometimes. Sometimes traditional politicians feel like they're not that politician. Y. Sometimes outsiders can sound kind of traditional. Right? Like, it's. It's a little bit. There's. Now Trump, for a million reasons, does not seem like he's a normal politician. And at this day and age, we could get a sociologist out here or figure out why it is, whether it's our phones or globalism or whatever, people feel unserved by traditional politicians. And I could argue against people on that. I could yell at Tom Blue in the face about how, yeah, life is. There's bad things about America today. But in the grand scheme of things, you know, we've been served pretty well by the post World War II establishment order. Like, you can make all those cases, but it's just like that. People feel what they feel, and people feel let down by regular politics, regular politicians, they're looking for people that have, you know, that. That can.
- [27:48]
Gavin Newsom
That.
- [27:49]
Tim Miller
That present as being outside of that. And Trump just does. Like, that's just. I. You know, he just has that. He doesn't have to try. He exudes it. And so I think that's benefited him a great deal. Deal.
- [28:02]
Gavin Newsom
When you look back, you know, and we speak of learning lessons and. And trying to understand and absorb success and failure in politics. Do you. Do you think. I mean, and I don't want to. We don't have to go too far down the rabbit hole of the Democratic Party. But, yeah, you know, the forensics around why Harris may have lost and, you know, and everybody's theories of the incumbency penalty or interest rates or it's inflation scars or is, you know, is it insufficient, you know, differentiation between what was perceived to be the incumbent Biden or the timing of his departure and 107 days, etc. Do you look back though more deeply that the parties? There's trend lines that have become more headlines today that go back decades with our party, with my party, where we've kind of lost our way. And what are those issues if you, if, if you feel that way, what are the issues that you think that you would identify that we should be more, I think, sensitive to?
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Tim Miller
Either.
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Tim Miller
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Tim Miller
Taxes and fees extra. C mint mobile.com yeah, people love hearing from ex Republicans tell them what Democrats should do, but I'm gonna do it anyway. So there are two things that stand out to me. Like one is just that I could speak of from being as a former Republican as Democrats ability to compete in red states, states, it's just like it doesn't feel like Democrats are even trying anymore. And it feels like the Democrats got out of touch culturally with what was happening in red states. And I understand why. There's a lot of things, I think that you can look at the progress, starting with you back as mayor of San Francisco all the way through of Democrats pushing forward gay rights and you can talk about a lot of this stuff and say, hey, you know, a moment of racial reckoning, like go through all of these issues, climate, dealing with climate change, like there are good reasons for all of it. But eventually you get to a point where it's like, man, Democrats can't really even compete right now in Iowa, Florida, Texas, Ohio. How do you win? Like how do you become a national party if you don't have a message for those folks? And I think that there's been a lot of complacency about that and like rather than just like really accepting it and saying hey, hey, you know, what can we do to communicate to people in these states that we care about them and center them and like put them forward, you know, I think it's funny, centering. I just use this kind of lefty word, right? And Democrats understand like every other context the importance of of, of representation and, and, and, and centering of every demographic group except conservative Americans or men and young men. Right. Like, you know, it's like you get what, you get what you have to show up in black communities. You get why you have to show up to talk to, you know, seniors. You get like, you name the group. Okay, well, show up and demonstrate that you care about red America. And I just, like, I'm trying to think of who, like, Beto was the last person that I thought, like, actually really tried to do that without, like, losing his center as a, as a liberal or progressive, how he defined himself. He at least showed up and they knew he showed up. He tried to make it part of his brand grand. And he only lost by three in Texas. It was the best race in Texas they've had. So there's something about that. Just like showing up and trying. The other thing is just accepting heterodoxy in general on different stuff. And this is my big thing, man. I got into an argument with our friends at Crooked Media on stage with a bunch of different Democratic strategists. When I made the point, I was like, Trump moderated on some things. A lot of Democrats don't want to accept that. Yeah, abortion.
- [34:52]
Gavin Newsom
No, it's true. There are a couple of issues where.
- [34:54]
Tim Miller
You'Re right, 100 and so what did he do, though? He ran against the establishment of the party from the left and the right. He's like, the establishment party has been too weak on immigration and crime and racial. Whatever. I'm going to run to the right of them on that. But on war, on, on Social Security, on and, and Medicaid or Medicare, rather. On, on gay issues, even a little bit. Like, he, like, ran to the left and said, oh, no, the party has been wrong about this. And didn't just say he was moderate about it. He was like, no, these guys are idiots. They're trying to take away your Social Security. They're putting you in stupid wars. These guys are idiots. So he ran to the left aggressively. And I just think that if you just look at the last 10 years of Clinton, Biden, Harris, all good people none of you have any issue with. They all kind of ran a status quo. And if you look at the big candidates for Senate and governor's races, most of them all ran as various versions of, of mainstream liberalism, however defined. And I just think that the Democrats, when they think about opening up the tent, it needs to be more than about just accepting people like me, but really opening up the tent and thinking about how you can run against the establishment in certain ways. And whether that's on economics or on foreign policy, you could have somebody on this show that'd be like, really? It goes back to Clinton and corporatism. Democrats should have cared more about working class stuff. Maybe, maybe. I guess I'm just saying I'm open to any of those things. But what I would like to see is the Democrats that say, okay, people feel like the party is not representing them. We need to run against what the party's been doing to show people that we, that we hear them. And I think, I feel like it could be on a lot of different things. I think maybe it's cultural issues, maybe it's economic issues, maybe it's foreign policy. I don't, what I mean is it.
- [36:38]
Gavin Newsom
Is it gun issues? Where do you see, I mean just in terms of breaking them down and breaking it down a little bit more pragmatically on the, on sort of subset of issues. I mean obviously we get into the whole pronoun issue, the sort of cultural normancy, the issues around that, brands, rights and sports. But I mean where do you, where do you start to see the contours of that? Or, or is it, are we way off? Is it more just the populism of a Bernie and an AOC and mom dummy that meets sort of a ban and MAGA base?
- [37:06]
Tim Miller
Yeah, I mean, I guess my answer to this is we should try different stuff and see what sticks and like let, let a thousand followers boom. Right? And like instead of trying the same thing over and over again, like what's the definition of insanity? Right? Like I, I look, look at, I would to answer your question, like if I could make a lab candidate like of, you know, if you get into Madden or NBA 2K where you have to create your own candidate, like if you created your own person. And these are not my personal views. So I'm just assessing what I think would be smart politics. Like, I would think that a candidate that like run, that has some bernish like on, on economics of saying, hey, we're going to run against the, the, the billionaires class and we're going to, you know, how create a new tax bracket for the top 0.1%. And also by the way, I think that we, you know, should really be supportive of our police and law enforcement and like, and I'm, and I'm not just going to say this, but I'm going to make one of the centering things of my campaign that we fund a lot of, we put a ton of money into the cops and I have cops behind me on stage when I'm doing a events and also on foreign policy, I think maybe we should like, you know, Trump is terrible and irresponsible and, and he sucked up to all the dictators or there's one thing that he's right about is maybe we should spend a little bit less. Like that's not my politics by the way, what I just laid out. But like that's something that's like totally different than what we're seeing from Democrats. I mean you, you know, you could say people paid lip service to any of that. There's the James Carville op ed recently where he was like, you should be populist and you should make sure that everybody knows it. And like that is to me like a big thing. Right. Like, so I don't, I'm less prescriptive on. I think it's just defund the police or I think it's just, you know, whatever corporatism or you know, whatever the typical things you'd hear, it's just woke like I think that it's more just like people want to hear from somebody. Like people want to hear from candidates like are, are authentic and passionate about what they're passionate about. You know, I guess last one example of this is I get like red state Democrats running calling me sometimes. They're like what should I do? What should I do? Nobody ever listens to me. So we'll see. This will be. Maybe they will not. I've sang it on your podcast. The I'm like pick whatever issue it is that you agree with Trump for the most on and talk about that all the time and like you can be a mainstream Democrat on everybody else, on everything else, but talk about it all the time. Don't just like put it on your page. Just may be like this is the one thing the Democrats were wrong about that he was right about. And I think that just as a political strategy seems to me potentially more fruitful than being very prescriptive about this sort of never ending fight between the Hillary and the Bernie people.
- [40:04]
Gavin Newsom
What do you make in that context? And so much of substance and obviously policy that marks a value proposition and a lens to which you see the world, world and, and obviously connect with voters in that respect or, or, or repel voters, depending on that perspective. What about the asymmetry in terms of ability to communicate that message at scale? Yeah, it's one thing to be out there on a stump speech in a town hall. To be Beto is so good in those settings and over and over and rep. Rap, rap, rap, rap. It's another what's sunshine and highlighted, you know, with Rachel Maddow versus what's highlighted with Sean Hannity. And the asymmetry on the Hannity side of that equation. Well, maybe not with Rachel, but she's the anomaly. But the dominance they have in terms of those propaganda networks to shape shift and to flood the zone. In terms of a counter narrative, what do you make of this sort of the communications environment that we're in today?
- [41:06]
Tim Miller
I think I have a little bit of a different view than what some of the others have said on like the Democratic autopsy. I don't think that there's like a huge shortage out there of and I say this with love, like Democratic propaganda, like pro Democrat. I don't know. I mean there's a lot of stuff like frankly, I think that the Biden administration probably could have used more criticism from inside the left media probably would have been a more helpful thing for the party than for the Biden administration to have more. More cheerleaders. Here's what I where I think the big misses. I was just looking at this yesterday. We're at the end of the year. So you see all the lists, like the top 10 Spotify podcasts. Neither of us are on there, gotta tell you. And we were the number four most searched. Okay, congrats.
- [41:57]
Gavin Newsom
I'll take what I can.
- [41:58]
Tim Miller
Congrats. Amazing congrats. I don't have, I don't have pull it up when we talk. But here's. And then I'll be the exact names. What I observed was that like the. The right leaning cultural stuff is dominates. You know, it's not like Fox. Right. It's not like the top podcasts are not Fox podcast. It's not like Sean Hannity's podcast. Nobody listens to that. Here we go. I got it right now. Joe Rogan, Theo Von are are one and two Sean Ryan show. But you'll probably have spent four and.
- [42:30]
Gavin Newsom
A half for four hours with him. Remarkable guy.
- [42:33]
Tim Miller
Yeah. Actually that's right wing stuff. Huberman Lab. That's right wing. And then you've got Tucker, which is well more like kind of cultural right stuff now like a race of conspiracy land. And Tucker's going so crazy. So there you go. I mean you look at that and it's like, well the daily is on there. It's the New York Times podcast. So that's just news left kind of center left news. That's reality information. So I just look at that and my takeaway is, man. And during the Obama years, I was on the losing side of this one, too, because I was a Republican then. The Democrats dominated the culture. Obama's on ESPN doing his March Madness picks, and athletes around and podcasts weren't proliferating them. But if you looked at what athletes and musicians and these huge cultural figures, they're all pro Obama. The Republican response to that was that pathetic McCain ad that we did where it's like, you're a celebrity, you're too popular. Yeah. That's how you win boats. So, you know, but we had nothing. So that's what we did. He tried to make it seem like he had a big ego. So that is the big shift to me. And. And, you know, I think that.
- [43:44]
Gavin Newsom
And where was I, Tim? Where was that shift? When did that shift? When do you start to see that shift occur? Is it the cult of personality? Is it the shiny object? That's Obama and his unique ability to capture that. Is it the shiny object of Trump and his ability to capture that? On the. On the flip side side, Kennedy center honors, we can get to that and all the rest.
- [44:01]
Tim Miller
Yeah. A little personality in both. Objectively. Obama. If you just look at the candidates. Obama, McCain. Obama. Romney. Trump. Clinton. Trump. Biden. Trump. Kamala. Whatever you think about it, it'd be like, who is the bigger personality? It was Obama. Obama. Trump. Don't. Trump. Right. And so the bigger personality won four out of five. So that's part of it. I think that there is also. And you got into this at the pot at the beginning of the year when you were trying to. You know, when you talk to Charlie and others of, like, where was. I think that there was a big Covid shift, and I think that there was kind of a backlash. A lot of people are in their home. People are frustrated. A lot of this was unfair. So I'm just. I'm saying this as an observer, not as a. Not as right. Because, like, too many people died of COVID The Republicans handled Covid poorly. Ron Desantis was maybe the worst Covid governor besides Andrew Cuomo. So, you know, there are terrible policies, but culturally, there's this sense that, like, the left was wanting people to stay inside, keeping people from doing stuff. There's a backlash that just happens, like. And there's a backlash to it. And Rogan was at the forefront of that. But there are a bunch of others, like a lot of the comedians, and I think you tie that a little bit. This is. You know, I'm not a woke critic. I think a lot of that is stupid, frankly. But like, you tie it into fair or not. Comedians were feeling like also they're being stifled a little bit and they're like, you're. There's cancel culture. I just, I think that happened, like whether it was fair or unfair, people felt that way. And these new cultural figures emerged who were anti establishment, you know, going against, you know, who the suits were. Like, my whole childhood is my side. The Republicans were the suits, you know, and it's like we flipped, right? We flipped. Now the Democrats are the suits, the scolds and the establishment. And the Republicans became the ones who are like, go out. Who cares about the disease? Go out there and party and make out with whoever you want to say your racist jokes. And we can think that's bad as a culture, but it happened. And so how do the Democrats kind of grab some of that back in a way that is still core to values? How can you be anti establishment again? How can you engage culturally with whether it's comedians or, you know, fitness or across sports, across board? Pablo, my buddy Pablo Torre is doing this kind of his lefty sports, you know, in space. Like there's, how do you do it? How do you. And I think to me if like the, the anti maga movement, broadly defined, like that is our challenge more than like, let's have another left wing propaganda network. I think it's, I think we're fine on that front.
- [46:45]
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Tim Miller
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- [47:53]
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- [49:58]
Gavin Newsom
And by the way, I appreciate that just sort of foundational perspective that it's not necessarily about a platform or a network, necessarily just sort of amping up our talking points that it's it's a deeper cultural thing. It's interesting. When we had Charlie Kirk on that show, he made the point that many have made, but he really reinforced it and it gets to the next point I want to bring up with you. He talked about, you know, politics, this notion of being downstream from culture. But he said it is culture and it had morphed. It emerged and that extended in a conversation we had about a year ago to the issue of men and boys. And it's an issue I know you focused a lot on and I was actually surprised. I didn't fully appreciate how much time and energy had focused on Turning Point USA and how do you actually had been to some of Charlie's events and you saw this thing emerging. You, you certainly absorbed it. Obviously the rest of us woke up to it and I hope the Democratic Party is waking up to it. Multi ethnic. It's not just white men, but young, young folks. Galloway, others, Richard Reeves, so many that have been writing, talking about this, we've been highlighting this as well and doing a lot in my day job as governor address this issue. But talk to me a little bit about what you've seen in this space and how we can address that issue in the spirit of our conversation just a moment ago as well.
- [51:15]
Tim Miller
Yeah, yeah, I did. Every year I went at the end. I think I'm going to skip it this year. I just can't take it. But I went to their year end fest was called America Fest was a turning point festival. You ever seen the movie Catch Me if youf Can Can? Yeah, it's. I had a. Running a little, little joke with Charlie about how like it was like Tom Hanks and Leo, like they have like we meet every Christmas. It's like we're on opposite sides and I don't know who was the cop and it was the, the thief. I guess maybe I was the cop and he was the thief. But what either way like it was like we every Christmas, like the week before Christmas day of that festival and I went to Arizona and. And you like. I usually write an article about it but usually it was like to watch and consume and talk and like talk to the teen and be like what is like why are you coming to here? Because it was very different than me being a young conservative. Like I was a, I was an outlier. I was a, I was the Michael J. Fox, you know, Alex P. Keaton, you know, like little briefcase and the blue blazer. And like that was high school conservatives when I was growing up. High school conservatives now like TPSA events. There was like there were like basically two types of people there. One was there was a very Christian church revival element to it. And then there was also like kind of a fratty Party element to it and maybe a little intermingling between the two but like both of those were coming thing and they're having fun. Like they had fun at that at those festivals every year at the end of the year. I never had a fun at a single CPAC when I was in college. I never went to a single college Republican event. That was fun. Those guys were having fun and women. But it was, it was a lot men we should just observe and so okay, what is happening with that? And like. And I would ask them a lot of those guys like what are the issues that brought you to this? And without a doubt and. And the old three legged Reagan stool for people don't know when I was a kid was you know, social conservative, fiscal conservative, foreign policy, strong military, tax cuts and pro life to short change. Like those would be the three that you'd hear most. Yeah, this group opposite too many wars. I don't want to go into wars anymore. Anti woke strong, you know, anti immigrant. Some of the white replacement stuff gets into the scarier stuff. But like that's what they would say, right? Like those are the things that they cared about. It wasn't cutting red tape tape, cutting taxes, government efficiency. There's a little bit of pro life stuff, but wasn't really the other guns doesn't really come up and certainly wasn't strong military is the opposite. And to me that's like okay, that needs to tell you something if you're on the other side of that. All right, well how can you reach those guys? The Democrats aren't going to reach the people that are concerned about the diversifying country. Some of those people are out of reach. But the other group, young men who are just feeling, I should have said financial insecurity, getting jobs and stuff. Young men also young men who are feeling like it's hard for them to go find a job outside of college who feel like, you know, the est. The. The establishment doesn't really care about them anymore and they only care about every other demographic group except them. They're worried about going off to war. They don't want to be sent off to war. Feels like the Democratic Party should have a message for that person. Like, you know what I mean? Like they're not. Like some of them are unreasonable reachable. You know, I hear from Democrats now are like why should we do this? Like why talk to the Charlie Kirk people? Who cares? They're not reachable. It's like no, there's some of those kids or the red hat kids are going to Be maga. You know, some of them are unreachable, obviously, but there is a category of young men out there that feels. Yeah. Economically insecure, feels like they're not being heard and they're, they. They don't like the foreign wars. And it's not hard, I feel. Feels like a cloned Obama could reach that person. None of that is really that far away from what Obama's message was. So I don't know. I think that they're more reachable than people think. And a lot of it is based on effort. It's based on not actively alienating them and maybe thinking about the ways in which the Democratic Party's policies have. Have, you know, gotten them out of step with them.
- [55:21]
Gavin Newsom
Have you seen anything comparable emerging from the prism of the, the left or even the center left? I mean, is there a. Anything not even close, analogous to what Turning Point is doing, Turning and turning on these, these, these conversations and people that events.
- [55:40]
Tim Miller
No, and I don't. And you see the energy on the left, I guess, Guess this is kind of a weird comp. But the closest one I could think of really, would have been the Gaza protests. Like, that was engaging a lot of young people. That wasn't really the Democratic Party. That would be a left thing. That was engaging young people. It wasn't like a group or an event. But I guess my point is, like, what would be an ex. You know, what would be a comp of something where it's like, okay, you have Democratic speakers and media personalities and what an organizers come together and a bunch of young people meet and they gather and they have fellowship and they have sex, probably, like, whatever. They have fun. Like, what would be, I mean, Zoran's campaign. There's a little bit of that. Right. Like, but I don't, I don't see any group. Yeah, it's an original campaign. Right? Yeah. But I don't see anybody trying to do that. And in the last article I wrote about last year's Turning Point, you know, it was. Was a lot of it was making fun of some of the extreme speakers they had and the insanity of it and the tenuousness of the coalition. But the very beginning of the article I just said before I make fun of these guys, you have to just acknowledge that what they're doing here is there's something that they're doing here and actually gathering and organizing. And there's not a comp on the left. No.
- [57:00]
Gavin Newsom
And. Yeah, anyway. Well, again, we can dive much deeper into this, but to me, it's Code red. I mean, break the glass. If it was any. It's been said by others, but it's absolutely true. If this was any other, and you implied it as it relates to Democrats that seem to have a solution to every problem and every constituency. But for whatever reason, young men, we feel like that's, that's verboten because somehow it's taking away, it's somehow scarcity mindset that it's going to somehow take away from our advocacy for our women and girls, when in fact advocacy for women and girls. You ask any mother, ask my, my, my wife. We have two young boys. I mean, this for, for moms. This is one of the toughest issues they're coming to grips with. What's happening with my boys, what's happening with these young men in particular.
- [57:44]
Tim Miller
Yeah. Whether it's going to roll back progress, which again, I understand, like, either for women or for, you know, black and brown men. And it's just like, I just don't think that's this, that's the place that we're in right now. Like, there's been a lot, like, absolutely. It's great that there's been a lot of progress. You just look at the college attainment right now and like, women are doing better, you know, like, they just are. And that's okay. We're not, it's not, it doesn't mean that you want, you know, I'm not advocating for trad marriage, like sending women back, but it's just like, okay, how can you say to, you know, you know, figure out how to communicate to young men particularly, you know, I feel like a lot of times this conversation is like, about what's happening at elite schools. And I don't know about you, but I could not give a fuck less about what's happening at Harvard and Yale. And like, the kid SAT buddy.
- [58:37]
Gavin Newsom
So trust me down on that.
- [58:40]
Tim Miller
All right, so story about the kid who just missed the. Who is waitlisted at Yale and, you know, has to go to Kenyon instead. It's like that that kid is going to be fine. All right. Like, that's not what you're worried about. It's like it's, it's the next. And at that next group, it's a lot. It is a diverse group. It's like it's, it's young. It's a state school, community college. Like, that type of young man who feels like, really like that they, that they're lost right now. And the last thing you want to do, like the what's the worst case scenario that you thrust these guys into the arms of people who are selling them snake oil, like to Nick Fuentes or any of those guys. Is that what we want? Like to not to, you know, be on our high horse while you have a whole generation of young men that are attracted to a racist, sexist ideology as their outlet for their feeling of, of, of hopelessness. I, I don't think anybody wants that. So let's, let's not do it.
- [59:39]
Gavin Newsom
Signed up to, you know, that Andrew Tate and his brother's Hustlers University or something. Yeah, you know, I mean it's exactly who took over. And I think you're right. The, I mean, sort of the origin, it's not the origin story, but it was certainly things accelerated pretty significantly during COVID So many people online, all those algorithms sort of reinforcing. And that's how, I mean I, I, my, my young son.
- [60:01]
SimpliSafe Announcer
Son.
- [60:02]
Gavin Newsom
And it's story that I share. But when he found out Charlie Kirk was coming on the podcast, he wanted to stay home from school. Not because he loved him, he just knew all about him because all his friends, that age cohort, that was everything on their YouTube.
- [60:16]
Tim Miller
What else does he watch? You know, like, what are the other stuff?
- [60:19]
Gavin Newsom
I mean, it just, it started with the games and by the way, why I went down to TwitchCon myself. And that's why we've had a lot of gamers on to talk about what's really happening with young folks and how they're being socially, how they, they're socially isolated. But it's not about the gaming, it's not about the platforms. It's about these underlying issues that we haven't substantively addressed. And to the extent you're right, that grievance is exploited by some on the right. And of course Trump was able to.
- [60:45]
Tim Miller
Electorally take advantage of that and just haven't tried. Like, I'm not. I'm glad you're doing the streamer stuff. This is like a blind spot for me. You know, I can only do what I can do. Right. I can hang with the bar stool.
- [60:54]
Gavin Newsom
You got to do Fortnite Fridays with me.
- [60:55]
Tim Miller
Yeah, I should do the comedy, bros. I don't, I can't do Fortnite Friday. Everybody's got a role to play, Gav. You can do Fortnite Fridays. So Theo Vaughan is one of these guys, kind of comedian, podcast Real Road Rules. He's Louisiana. We have a mutual friend. I've met him a couple times. Like, the idea that Theo Vaughn is a Republican voter is Crazy. Like there's no reason for this. Like, he is just like he's a bro that wants to live his life and like not have people get on his back. And he is like, he's concerned about, yeah, it's health care issues in his life. He's concerned about like not personally but family. Like, like the way that Big Pharma has taken advantage of, of people and he's seen people health have health care bill issues and you know, he doesn't, like, he is totally non ideological like, but the Republicans tried. Trump went on his podcast, JD did, RFK did. He's a Republican now. And they like, you know, work.
- [61:53]
Gavin Newsom
We're still negotiating the terms of which questions were going to be asked. Is it going to be only 45.
- [61:58]
Tim Miller
Minutes made the case to him and it's like, and now you know, they're like, but he's like hanging out with Trump and Ivanka and Jerry. It's just like why this didn't have to, it doesn't have to be like this. Like these people are not ideological. They have, they have concerns that are very well addressable by people that have liberal values. If they just were communicated in a certain way and tried. And I go back to the thing I said at the top. It's like just use the same lessons you get from reaching out to, to any. Not that they're, not that he's a marginalized group, but reaching out to any other group. You know, it's just like showing up matters, representation matters. Just do like same for these guys.
- [62:38]
Gavin Newsom
Couldn't agree more. And it's, it's just important. And, and I want to just pull one more contemporary thread in this conversation, but it's important just to remind everybody that the trend lines as it relates to young folks. I mean when we say Code Red, it's legitimately code red. If you're 30 years old, old, you're the first generation in the history of this country not doing better than your parents. You're 100%. If you look at college graduation, it's going to be 2 to 1 at the UCs and CSUs here in the next five years. Women, which is fantastic. But 2 to 1, dropout rates, you see rates, you know, deaths of despair, suicide rates. If you go to a morgue, you know, five bodies, four of them are men, men from suicide. And, and it's all these major issues that are shaping things in more ways and more days. And I don't think again, our party, my party, is doing enough to address.
- [63:30]
Tim Miller
It's probably Going to make it worse, too, right? I mean, probably right. Seems like.
- [63:35]
Gavin Newsom
Talk about just that economic anxiety, just briefly, in terms of what it seems now, Trump himself is recognizing that he has to reconcile that he appears now it's not just the wrecking ball on the East Wing, but that he's took a wrecking ball to this economy. And tariff impacts are starting to now flow through to consumers, at least the anxiety at first. And now the reality of that we'll see in. We saw it in terms of cost of Halloween candy. We're going to see it with the cost of Christmas toys. Trump himself this week is in Pennsylvania. Sort of a reset. How serious do you feel? I know Democrats were so prone. This is it for Trump. This is it. Do you feel like, though, there is something. The fact that Susie Wiles did direct Trump to focus a little less on his Peace Prize and maybe focus a little bit more on, you know, sowing the seeds of a comic narrative.
- [64:28]
Tim Miller
Here's the good news. We've talked about all the things Democrats need to do better. Trump's about to make it easy. If you just want to walk through the door, honestly, like, because you talk about that same group of people we're talking about is like, the who, not the ideologically rigid conservative folks. All right, like, that's not what we're talking. That's not who I. What I'm talking about is the people that came to Trump disproportionately, men, but not entirely. That felt like politics as usual wasn't serving them, that we were wasting too much money overseas, not taking care of people back here, that we're caring too much about people at the border and not people in this country, and that he was going to fight the status quo on behalf of them and make their life better and easier and things maybe would get cheaper. That was his pitch to a lot of those folks. And he's failing. He's doing the opposite. And they're noticing. And you look at that first row of people that I've noticed. You watch those comedian pods. It's like Joe Rogan's not so sure about it lately. This guy Tim Dillon owes it to a lot. Andrew Schultz, all these guys were for Trump in the end. And they're looking at this and they're saying, guy, what is your focus on? Why are we bombing boats in the Caribbean? Why are we bulldozing the East Wing? Why do you care so much about your Peace prize? Made three trips overseas and no trips to red America. Trump is, for once, making a normal politician Mistake. Trump's made a lot of his weird mistakes. Trumpian stuff, gaffes and racist stuff. This is just normal politician mistakes. He's getting out of touch with what his voters want. And I think it's very real. And I think that people's economic insecurity right now is real. I think it's going to get worse, probably for the combination of Trump's own policies and the AI stuff. I think it's going make it even more challenging rather than getting better. And I just think that if those of us that want to move on from this can offer the people that were attracted to Trump an alternative and say, hey, look, yeah, he promised you all this. He didn't do it. Rather than be like, oh, we told you so. It's obviously not going to do it. You got fooled. I like to do that from time to time, but I'm a podcast podcaster. The politicians shouldn't do that. You know what I mean? It's like, okay, instead of that, just be like, hey, look, we heard, heard, heard. You know, you want us appeal to care more about your problems than all this other stuff, and we're going to start doing that. I think it's a big opportunity, and I think that Trump has real problems. Not like, oh, the end is near. Not like, oh, things won't be bad the next three years. They will be not, oh, it's impossible that J.D. vance or Don Jr. Or whoever is the next president. It's possible, right? But it's like he's creating a real opportunity. Opportunity because he's losing people that were in his coalition on. On economic stuff and also on the immigration stuff and on immigration.
- [67:31]
Gavin Newsom
What? And we didn't even get to healthcare. So what? Speaker Jeffries, you know, scale of 1 to 10, is that a 9 or is it. Or is it a 1 until we make it a 9? Because that's the political response. What?
- [67:44]
Tim Miller
I mean, it was like, teetering before. Not to gas you up or anything, but it was teetering before the redistricting move. I gotta tell you, the. There was a moment where it's like, if you guys didn't act, if Virginia didn't act, if none of the states act, if to just. And if the Republicans went full throttle, which they ended up not doing for a variety of reasons, and Voting Rights act got overturned. There was a moment a couple months ago where I was like, with the math nerds, like, looking at the maps, and it was like, they might just be able to rig their way into the fact that no matter how Good. The Democrats do. They can't get a majority. They were close to being able to rig the whole mat and that crumbled. So kudos on that. So I think it's probably like a 7 or 8. I think that it's likely that who the hell knows what a year holds? A lot of things can happen between now and then. Part of that seven or eight is, who knows, maybe Jeffries has an insurgency incident party. A lot of it can happen between now and next November. So I don't know about a 9, but I think things look good. And a lot of Jeffrey Jeffries is.
- [68:52]
Gavin Newsom
In there in six months, if enough Republicans start to resign.
- [68:55]
Tim Miller
Yeah. Keep resigning. Yeah. And they know it, you know, they see it, that it's not going to happen for them, and that's why a lot of them are resigning. So I think that's good news. I do worry, though. I'm the Nervous Nelly podcaster. Yeah. I've been like, I look back at 22, and I think the big narrative out there was red wave, red wave. Then it didn't happen. And it didn't happen for two reasons. One was people were pissed about Dobbs and there really was a turnout, particularly among women on the abortion issue. That should be noted. Also because Republicans dominated a bunch of lunatics and cost a couple races that they didn't, shouldn't have. I was in Arizona following that race closely, and there was. Katie Hobbs had no business winning that race, for example. That was a governor's race, et cetera race. But there are other examples of places. And so you come out of there and it's like, oh, it wasn't a red wave. This was great. Things are going good. Bidenomics is fine, and we all see what happened. So. And I just always look back, I got an argument with a Biden person recently where they're like, you know, it was reasonable for us to think it was good because there was no red wave. And I was like, you lost the House that year. It wasn't that good of a year. Like, you lost the House still. And so I just. I don't want to get in an extra year and have the Democrats get into complacency, where it's like, if. If it's a really good year, Democrats should take the Senate. If it's a really good year, they should. It shouldn't just be Speaker Jeffries, it should be Majority Leader Schumer. If it's a really good year. And if the Democrats don't take the Senate in a year where Trump is everything up then that should tell you a little bit something about how the Democrats still have more work to do to appeal to people in places like Iowa, Ohio, Texas, to go back to the beginning of our conversation if we can't win any of the those states. And so that would be my take on the midterms. I think things are looking good for the House, which is important but there's there I, I, I'm, there should not be complacency about the stat the political status of the Democrats, I don't think. Amen.
- [70:54]
Gavin Newsom
Well, I, I'll take a 7. I can 8 prefer a 9. But hell, the fact you brought up the Senate, we will end on that. Tim Miller, thanks for being with us today.
- [71:04]
Tim Miller
All right, brother. I appreciate all the work you're doing out there. Let's stay in touch. We got to do a flip sometime soon. All right.
- [71:08]
Gavin Newsom
I know we have to do we absolutely have to do. I we haven't done that yet. I know.
- [71:12]
Tim Miller
All right. We'll see you.
- [71:13]
Gavin Newsom
Appreciate you.
- [71:14]
Tim Miller
Thanks, man.
- [71:20]
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Tim Miller
B R-I K.com this is an iHeart podcast.
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