And, This is More With Speaker Newt Gingrich

Summary

This is Gavin Newsom - Episode Summary: “And, This is More With Speaker Newt Gingrich”

Release Date: May 30, 2025
Host: Gavin Newsom
Guest: Speaker Newt Gingrich
Podcast: This is Gavin Newsom, iHeartPodcasts

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1. Introduction

In this compelling episode of "This is Gavin Newsom," Governor Gavin Newsom engages in an in-depth conversation with former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich. The discussion traverses a spectrum of pressing political and social issues, emphasizing the necessity for honest and respectful dialogue between differing viewpoints. The episode seeks to bridge divides by fostering understanding and exploring bipartisan solutions.

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2. Immigration Policy: Past and Present

Governor Newsom and Speaker Gingrich delve into the complexities of U.S. immigration policy, reflecting on historical legislation and its contemporary implications.

Historical Perspectives:
Gingrich references the Chinese Exclusion Act and figures like Dennis Kearney, who echoed exclusionary sentiments reminiscent of modern rhetoric. He highlights the cyclical nature of immigration debates, drawing parallels between past and present challenges.

Gingrich [05:03]: "Every person that came in was inspected for health... It wasn't an automatic open door. It was a controlled open door."

Current Immigration Levels:
Gingrich points out the substantial increase in immigration rates, noting that immigration has surged from approximately 4.8% in 1970 to around 14.8% today. He expresses concerns about "peak immigration" and its effects on societal integration and economic systems.

Gingrich [06:05]: "We are going to deport most of the criminals. And if you are here without having yet been a criminal and you become a criminal, we're going to deport you."

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3. Impact of Immigration on Higher Education and Innovation

The conversation shifts to the influence of immigration on higher education and the innovation landscape in the United States.

Higher Education Concerns:
Gingrich articulates concerns about the diminishing capacity of U.S. higher education institutions to produce PhDs and STEM professionals, crucial for maintaining the nation's competitive edge in innovation.

Newsom [02:53]: "My fundamental concern about this assault on higher education is the impact that will have in terms of our capacity to get these PhDs and STEM folks..."

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4. Policy Evaluations: Simpson-Mazzoli Act and Trump’s Immigration Policies

Gingrich provides a critical analysis of the Simpson-Mazzoli Act, initially intended to offer amnesty to 300,000 individuals but resulting in unintended long-term consequences by extending to 3 million.

Simpson-Mazzoli Act:
He reflects on his role in passing the act in 1986 and Reagan's diaries revealing intentions to control border immigration through work permits—a goal ultimately unmet.

Gingrich [08:37]: "We thought we were giving amnesty to 300,000. Turned out to be 3 million."

Trump’s Immigration Approach:
Gingrich discusses Trump's strategies, emphasizing deportations of criminals and differentiating Dreamers from other undocumented immigrants. He acknowledges the division within political movements while recognizing significant support for Trump within Hispanic and African American communities.

Gingrich [09:27]: "They grew up in America. For all practical purposes, it is their native country."

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5. Border Control and Rhetoric’s Impact

The discussion explores the tangible effects of presidential rhetoric on border control and societal perceptions of immigration.

Policy Outcomes:
Gingrich notes a significant decline in border crossings due to policy shifts, attributing part of this change to aggressive rhetoric rather than solely executive orders.

Gingrich [10:33]: "He [Trump] came in and it really... [broke down border controls]."

Societal Impact:
The guests examine how Trump's rhetoric has influenced public sentiment, fueling fears and misconceptions despite statistical evidence showing native-born individuals are more likely to commit crimes than immigrants.

Gingrich [11:18]: "He got the highest percentage any Republican's ever gotten in the Hispanic community."

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6. Economic Policies: Tariffs and Trade with China and Europe

Gingrich and Newsom transition to discussing economic strategies, particularly focusing on tariffs and trade relations with China and Europe.

Reevaluation of Trade Policies:
Gingrich candidly admits to misjudging China's economic strategies post-Deng Xiaoping, recognizing that the open market approach employed by China was intended to sustain its authoritarian regime rather than promote democratic openness.

Gingrich [20:13]: "I really thought... that opening up China economically was a great step towards a more open China. I totally misunderstood Deng Xiaoping's motives."

Tariff Impacts:
They analyze the repercussions of Trump's tariff policies, highlighting the challenges faced by small businesses and the resultant market instability.

Gingrich [22:40]: "He is now going to have an exciting and enthusiastic six or eight months."

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7. Bipartisanship and Political Polarization

A significant portion of the conversation addresses the fractured state of American politics and the imperative for bipartisan collaboration.

Historical Cooperation:
Gingrich reminisces about the cooperative relationship between him and President Bill Clinton, particularly during the passing of balanced budgets. He laments the current toxicity and partisanship that stifles effective governance.

Gingrich [29:43]: "We produced the only four balanced budgets in a century... because we listened to each other and we talked with each other."

Calls for Bipartisanship:
Gingrich advocates for a renewed commitment to bipartisan efforts, drawing on historical examples to illustrate the benefits of cross-party collaboration.

Gingrich [38:55]: "Either there has to be a very concerted effort to reach out and to try to find bipartisan ways to work together."

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8. Reflections on Political History and Future Outlook

The episode culminates with reflections on political history, including the Impeachment of Bill Clinton, and speculations about the future political landscape.

Impeachment Reflections:
Gingrich critiques the handling of Clinton's impeachment, attributing its failure to personal biases and a departure from substantive legal grounds into sensationalism.

Gingrich [36:10]: "We profoundly mishandled the impeachment... The report was so lurid and so related to sex that it poisoned the whole project."

Future Political Landscape:
Discussing the potential for future elections, Gingrich expresses hope for bipartisan progress but acknowledges the high level of polarization that could lead to increased extremism if cooperation isn't achieved.

Gingrich [40:54]: "The founding fathers designed the system... to make it so hard that it's very, very difficult, as we just saw in the House, for a purely partisan effort to work."

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9. Conclusion

Governor Newsom and Speaker Gingrich conclude the episode by reflecting on their personal relationship and the broader implications for American politics. Gingrich emphasizes the importance of bipartisan dialogue and the necessity of moving beyond entrenched partisanship to address the nation's challenges effectively.

Gingrich [42:12]: "It was a lot of fun. I hope you enjoyed it."

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This episode serves as a poignant reminder of the value inherent in civil discourse and bipartisan cooperation. By examining historical precedents and current policies, Gavin Newsom and Newt Gingrich provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of the complexities surrounding immigration, economic strategies, and political polarization. The dialogue underscores the enduring need for empathy, informed policy-making, and collaborative governance to navigate the United States toward a more unified and prosperous future.

Transcript

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[Gavin Newsom]

This is Gavin Newsom and Newt Gingrich continues. You worked on this book, which again is, you know, it's very much in the spirit of Reagan to. You talk about his last speech. I mean, I mean that. Where he talked about Lady Liberty's torch and you know, I mean, talked about that life force of new Americans, etc, And, and, and again, my, my fundamental concern about this assault on, on higher education is the impact that will have in terms of our capacity to get these PhDs and STEM folks and to be able to pull that chill. It's already, I think, having around the rest of the world, but pull the best and the brightest minds and, and keep them as part of that innovation cycle. But you, you specifically, I'm. You, you brought up in the book, which I loved, the Chinese Exclusion Act. And you know, so much of that comes from, you know, the embers of that are very familiar folks out here in the Bay Area. You know, I remember the, what I would refer to unfairly, I would admit this guy, Dennis Kearney, who was sort of the original Trump, and he began and ended every speech by saying, whatever else we do, the Chinese must go. And they were building virtual walls to keep the Chinese out. And of course, the beginning of the Chinese Exclusion act ultimately came out of the Bay Area and some of those movements. But interesting to me is we're now close to peak immigration. Again. We dropped very low in 1970, I think it was 4.8%, don't quote me. And now we're closer to 14, 14.8, wherever it is. Again, don't quote me. But it's significantly grown. How concerned. You talk about assimilation. You talked about the things you can't talk about from a European prism. But as you balance the journey to America and you balance this immigration debate and deal with the issue of criminal behavior and quote, unquote, illegal immigration as you refer to it, how do we find a balance? How do we strike that balance at peril? We go back to the instincts of the 1880s or go back, frankly, to. Well, I mean, maybe we're back there today. Curious. Your assessment?

[Newt Gingrich]

I think no, I think first of all, there were two huge challenges. One is sheer volume. I mean, you can't have 6, 8, 9 million people crossing the border illegally. The other, which I began writing about in the, in the 80s, I was visited when I was a congressman in Georgia by a Vietnamese small business owner who said that when he came over after the fall of Saigon, he and his brother arrived and he went straight to work. And his brother got hooked up in Southern California with the welfare office and learned that you could get public housing, and you could get food stamps and so forth. And so his brother never developed the kind of entrepreneurial drive because life was adequate. And it hit me that what had worked historically in America, which was very tough, people should not kid themselves. Callista's grandmother came through Ellis Island. We actually went up and looked at her signature and.

[Gavin Newsom]

And her from Poland. Is that right?

[Newt Gingrich]

Huh?

[Gavin Newsom]

Polish.

[Newt Gingrich]

Yeah. She's. Her grandmother's Polish on her father's side. Ironically, since she's been nominated to be ambassador to Switzerland, her grandmother on the. On the Swiss side, which is. Her mother, is from Bern. So she's actually going back to her grandmother's home area. But the. The paternal grandmother came from Poland in 1908, and you can literally track her coming in. Well, every person that came in was inspected for health, and if you had a communicable disease, you were excluded and sent back. Everybody was checked to see if they were willing to go to work. And if you weren't prepared to work, you were sent back. I mean, it wasn't an automatic open door. It was a controlled open door. But there was a second part which was very tough. People expected you to become American. They expected you to learn English. They expected you to go to work. They expected you to be a neighbor. They expected you to obey the law. And so there's a great deal of socialization that went into being an immigrant in the U.S. we went into a cycle which was captured in a book called the Tragedy of American Compassion, where, starting really in the big way with the Great Society, it became inappropriate to suggest to people that they give up wherever they came from to say that the habits and the culture you came from aren't so if you happen to come from a place which engages in clitorectomy, who are we to suggest, as a matter of women's rights, that maybe that's not a very good habit? It would be like in the middle of the 19th century, when Suti was still practiced in India and widows were expected to be burned on the. With their husbands. So the question becomes, can we find a path back to work? And I voted for all this. And in 1986, we passed the Simpson Mazzoli Act. We gave. We thought we were giving amnesty to 300,000. Turned out to be 3 million.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Newt Gingrich]

And Reagan, in his diary says, I signed the bill because we were going to get control of the border, and we're going to have a work permit system so we could control immigration. And, of course, he got neither. So as one of the guys who voted for this thing.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah. You were an advocate, I think, what, in 1985. Right. Even before when it was in its infancy in bill form.

[Newt Gingrich]

So, you know, I think you. We're not going to deport 10 or 12 or 14 million people. No, it's not going to happen. We are going to deport most of the criminals. And if you are here without having yet been a criminal and you become a criminal, we're going to deport you. And then once, I mean, my theory of all this, which may be wrong, but it's part of. Part of why we did A Journey to America, was to remind people that it's okay to be against illegal immigration, but you want to be passionately for legal immigration and you want to recognize that there are dividing lines. I'm very concerned about the Dreamers, the people who came here two, three, four years of age.

[Gavin Newsom]

They're here really.

[Newt Gingrich]

They should be treated differently than they're being treated right now. It's just. It's wrong to toss them in as though they're illegal in any traditional sense.

[Gavin Newsom]

So is it just they're just a political football, then?

[Newt Gingrich]

That's right. Well. And most of them don't speak the language of their native country.

[Gavin Newsom]

Exactly right.

[Newt Gingrich]

They grew up in America. For all practical purposes, it is their native country. So we couldn't have that debate until we got control of the border. My guess is that by sometime in 27, we will begin to have a very healthy debate. People will have calmed down and will now be into how do we solve this problem as opposed to just being so rigid. And it may even happen starting in 2016. I thought that the speed. I don't know what your reaction was, but I thought the speed of. With which they turned around the southern border was almost unbelievable.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah. I mean, directionally it had significantly declined in terms of the total number of border crossings, but unquestionably. Yeah. The acuity to which, in essence is shut down is rather remarkable considering where we were two years prior. But clearly the message was delivered a little bit in the last nine months to a year. The Biden administration gradually shifted, but then.

[Newt Gingrich]

Trump came in and it really.

[Gavin Newsom]

No, no doubt. I mean, look, rhetoric matters. And I'm curious just from that perspective, because I think a lot of it was rhetorical. I mean, it was substantive in terms of some of the moves that he's made, but mostly rhetorical, I think, in terms of the impacts even occurring before in the executive orders went in effect, and certainly no fundamental legislative shifts yet. But what are you. What about the rhetoric what about sort of the pain a lot of our diverse communities feel about the rhetoric from the President himself? And you know, is it tactical? You say he supports legal immigration. We saw that debate play out with a Bannon Musk frame. But that debate's still pretty alive in the base of the mega movement. Right? Anti immigrant legal too.

[Newt Gingrich]

Look, the challenge for Trump's critics on this line of reasoning is that he got the highest percentage any Republican's ever gotten in the Hispanic community. He got the largest percentage of African American males of any Republican since Eisenhower, you know, 70 years ago.

[Gavin Newsom]

That's right.

[Newt Gingrich]

He's the first Republican to get a majority of the Catholic vote. So there are an awful lot of people who are first and second generation legal immigrants who are as mad about illegal immigrants as people whose relatives came over in 1700. I mean, there's a sense of, I paid my dues, I waited, I obeyed the law, and at least, and I frankly, I left these people behind. I don't want a Venezuelan gang in my neighborhood. And while that's exaggerated, it's real enough. And particularly if you look at the people you know who've been killed or, or the people who have been raped. You don't need many symbols. No country decide. You know, I don't, that's a risk.

[Gavin Newsom]

I don't know, I just, I miss what I hate is how it's exploited. And as we know, I mean, we all know the stats. I mean, native born are more likely to commit crimes than foreign born, legal or, or without documentation. But you're right, I mean, what you just said is, is potently accurate. It doesn't take that many examples.

[Newt Gingrich]

And I suspect if you limit it down to Ms. 13 gang members, Venezuelan gang members, there, there are enough examples there.

[Gavin Newsom]

No, you're right.

[Newt Gingrich]

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[Gavin Newsom]

Look, I get your broader point, but I'm encouraged by your core belief that Trump has the capacity to your point to move, if he feels that we've made the progress on the border to a much more comprehensive conversation.

[Newt Gingrich]

He has said publicly that we ought to really be thinking about if you graduate in science or engineering, we give you a green card with, with your graduation.

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, that's been challenged by him eliminating all the foreign students at Harvard. But we'll see.

[Newt Gingrich]

That's. Now let me suggest to you for a second as somebody who studied Trump a fair amount, when there's a, there's a John Wayne film where he gets really mad at somebody, picks up a chair, breaks it over their head and his partner turns and says, God, you get really, go crazy, as several foreign governments have learned. You take Trump head on and he goes nuts and he says, I'm going to prove to you it's classic alpha male. I now have to prove to you who's dominant. Well, Harvard decided, let's test this theory. Okay, so they now have Donald Trump about 4 o' clock every morning figuring out what he can do next. And he is going to beat on them. And beat on them has nothing to do with the rest of the country.

[Gavin Newsom]

I hope not.

[Newt Gingrich]

Harvard has decided to pick a head on fight. They're a big institution, they got a ton of money, they have great prestige and we'll see whether or not they. This is a little bit like in, I think it's 1902, they have a huge coal mine strike. And Theodore Roosevelt calls in the coal mine owners and says, this is going to get settled. And the coal mine owners say, well, you don't understand. We own the coal mines. And Roosevelt says, you don't understand. I am the president, United States and I will have the army take over all of your mines. And they said, oh, well, let's talk. I mean, if Harvard was semi smart, they would say, you know, this is a losing fight. Even if they, if they win round one in court because he's going to be there for four years, they win one, win one round in court. The Justice Department will be there with round two, three and four and he's not going to give up until they kowtow. It's just now he's not necessarily going to go and pick a fight with, you know, the Ohio State University, partly because he likes their football team, as a general rule that this is classically Trump behave. You saw him just do it to the Europeans. The Europeans said, we don't want to talk. He said, fine, 50% tariff next Monday.

[Gavin Newsom]

And then he negotiates against himself.

[Newt Gingrich]

Oh, we actually do want to talk.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah, well, and then he delays the. I mean it, I it by the. You, well, you opened this door and Mr. Free Trade, I remember you back in the day. I'm old enough to remember NAFTA and everything else. And that was bipartisan. It was hardly. Newt Gingrich, Speaker Gingrich. It was celebrated in my party. So you, you've evolved. A lot of folks have. Not just, you know, including, by the way, Democrats. I mean, the tariff policies were advanced and, and, and increased against China in particular during the Biden administration, but not across the board, not with this fits and starts, not negotiating against ourselves. Tell me, you tell me, tell me that you've find the approach to tariffs under the Trump administration foolhardy and not necessarily productive at this stage, or am I missing this great negotiator's capacity to deliver punches like a chess master five months from now or a year from now?

[Newt Gingrich]

I think, I think a couple things. One, I would say, looking back, I was wrong.

[Gavin Newsom]

Do you say that conveniently, or do you.

[Newt Gingrich]

I mean, no, I say because I evolved over 10. I'll give you the best example. Yeah, I really thought, as did most of the people who studied it, that opening up China economically was a great step towards a more open China. And I totally misunderstood Dung Xiaoping Southern tour, where he gave the speeches about markets and said, you know, I don't care whether it's a black cat or a white cat, as long as it catches the rat, and sounded like he was really talking about openness. Well, a couple years ago, I did a book called Trump and China, and I went back and did a lot of research, and I was frankly pretty embarrassed. I mean, Deng Xiaoping was one of the 24 people in Paris who create the Chinese Communist Party. He leaves Paris at the end of World War I, goes to Moscow and spends a year at Lenin University studying Marxism, Leninism. He is saying, and none of us caught this. We have to have a market to create enough prosperity to strengthen the party's grip on the country, because if people stay too poor, they're going to throw the party out. So I'm not going to an open market so I can open up China. I'm going to an open market so I can sustain the dictatorship. And by the way, since it is a dictatorship and since we are China, if I get to rip you off, that's fine. Now, part of my education, after I left the speakership, I was approached by a former Walmart president who was going to do a deal in China and he thought having a former speaker would help, given negotiating. So my lawyer talked to the Chinese lawyers and after he looked at the proposed contract, he said, let me get this straight. You can define what his interest is worth on any given day and you can buy it at your definition. They said, yeah, that's how we do things now with my client. So it's been looking at that. And then in the European case, the Europeans and this, this is a genuine tragedy. And I think you have to read J.D. vance's speeches in Paris and Munich in this context. And, and again, I'm a European historian. I've lived in four European countries and I have an enormous affection for Europe. Historically, the Europeans decided to go to litigation and regulation rather than innovation. They're the literally the exact opposite of Silicon Valley.

[Gavin Newsom]

That's interesting.

[Newt Gingrich]

In the long run, that's a losing game. So what they have to do is they have to somehow tax Amazon or Apple or, or Google or Meta or Microsoft because they literally can't compete with them. And this isn't. So what. So they, they rigged the game in clever ways. And for a very long time, we operated within a model of somehow trying to get to a balanced world where it would also, you know, the World Trade Organization would work. I mean, I was for China joining the wto. And then you realize after a while it just, this current system doesn't work. Now, what Trump has done, which I don't, candidly don't think he's explained very well, Trump is a reversion to the late 19th century Republican model best articulated by William McKinley, that we are going to have higher tariff walls, we're going to have higher paid workers, we're going to have huge prosperity. And in the end, because we're the largest economy we have. He loves this.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Newt Gingrich]

He knows in every negotiation, including China, in the end, he's the bank they're going to have to negotiate with it.

[Gavin Newsom]

Sure.

[Newt Gingrich]

And so he's now going to have an exciting and enthusiastic six or eight months. I tell all of my friends, do not look at your stock until, until August.

[Gavin Newsom]

Or the lack of stock in the warehouse because of all the indecision and the business chill. I mean, a lot of, lot of people that aren't going to make it five months. That's my fear and disproportionate number out here in America's largest economy, California, with all that goods movement and the dock workers and truckers and obviously the small business supply chains. I mean, it's it's being felt. It's pretty profound. I hope there's an end game here, but time is not on the side of a lot of these small entrepreneurs.

[Newt Gingrich]

I think that's right. Look, there's going to be a lot of floundering around and ultimately we may be at a better future, but the interim is going to be I tell people this is not a beer party on a houseboat on a quiet lake. This is canoeing in the rapids of a wild river. And that's just a fact.

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[Podcast Host]

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[Gavin Newsom]

All right, let's go back just briefly because I'd be remiss if we didn't talk about this. So I here's. This is how I spent my Memorial Day. I somehow landed on a New Hampshire town hall that you and President Clinton conducted together. It was shockingly civil. I tuned in because I was expecting the opposite. And the fact that the President of the United States, the Speaker of the House of Representatives, at the peak of their differences, engaged in a civil conversation, it makes me long for those days, or wait or not, because my reflection was one of critique and constant, you know, just, you know, confrontation, vitriol, government shutdowns. So which was it? What was your relationship like? Do you remember that day in New Hampshire? What the hell were you two thinking? And what. What's happened to our country since? And how. How much do you feel, Mr. Speaker, in the lunch conversation, responsible for the first. Some of that sort of toxicity, as some have described in our politics, as it relates to the relationship that you add with our party? Our party with you and the Contract with America?

[Newt Gingrich]

Oh, well, you just managed to ask about three different questions.

[Gavin Newsom]

I did, yeah.

[Newt Gingrich]

When? And I had a, I think, remarkably good personal relationship.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Newt Gingrich]

We were about the same age group. We were both. We're both inherently graduate students. We like to sit around and shoot the breeze about policy. Occasionally, late at night, I'd go down and have a drink with him and we just bs. I mean, it was just, you know, as you know, he is one of the great yeses in American history.

[Gavin Newsom]

I mean, God bless.

[Newt Gingrich]

All you gotta do is relax and let him roll for a while. And. And so in that sense, what happened was. Which was. Which was. And I wrote a book on it called March the majority. We spent 16 years growing a majority, all of it standing on Reagan's shoulders. The contract is entirely Reagan. But when we won, because we had based everything we were doing on the American people. So every single Item in The contract is 70% or better. There's a big fight in the White House in June of 95, and Reagan's staff, I mean, Clinton's staff says, you've got to fight Gingrich. You owe it to the party. And Clinton, who had been beaten in 1980 for reelection and knew that it wasn't fun, said to them, I do that. I want to lose. I'm not going to fight Gingrich. I'm going to protect the things I have to protect, and I'm going to take shots at him when I can. But I want to work with him, because if I work with him, I'll probably get reelected. And I like being in the White House. And it was a huge brawl. I mean, I remember one point, Leon Panetta. We were in a negotiating session, and Panetta was screaming at him and saying, you can't give that away. We had Democrats who lost their seats because they voted for that. And Kevin's going, yeah, but I don't want to lose my seat. And, you know, then he turned to me and said, I guess I can't do that one. This may surprise you. We negotiated for 35 days face to face.

[Gavin Newsom]

We produced face to face. I mean, literally, the two of you in the room, not outsourcing it to.

[Newt Gingrich]

Staff, other people around, but the two of us sitting across the table for 35 days. And we produced the only four balanced budgets in a century. And we did it because we listened to each other and we talked with each other. Now, I. I was a harsh partisan for a reason. You'll understand perfectly. I mean, it's what you have not. You haven't really had the kind of quality of opposition you should have in California that methodically goes out and spends 16 years and gradually becomes a majority, which is tragic. That's not good for the state.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah, I hear you again. I mean, I get that argument. Absolutely.

[Newt Gingrich]

Yeah.

[Gavin Newsom]

So, no, sincerely. Yeah.

[Newt Gingrich]

Yeah. So I had to be polarizing because I'm the minority. I mean, if I'm going to get in, I've got to make sure that people decide not to vote for the Democrats.

[Gavin Newsom]

And so it's not your natural state. I mean, it was. I mean, it. I mean, it was. It was a very intentional strategy.

[Newt Gingrich]

I mean, no, you'll like this because I think in some ways you'll identify, okay, my natural state is winning.

[Gavin Newsom]

There you go. I appreciate that.

[Newt Gingrich]

If sitting for 35 days wins, I'm for winning. You're fighting. If closing the government for 27 days is a necessary Prelude Negotiate. I'm foreclosing the government for 27 days. All right. But they were. They were not a personality thing. They were instrumentalities of getting something done.

[Gavin Newsom]

And so that town hall sort of reflected that, that you guys had a civil conversation outdoors in New Hampshire. I think he said, you happened to be there already. He was coming down. Do you remember it at all?

[Newt Gingrich]

Yeah. Bob Dole had. We had this deal. Dole wanted to run for president, and he didn't want me because I was the brand new guy on the block, and I was nationally pretty popular at that time. He didn't want me to run for president, so he loaned me his entire New Hampshire organization. And I went up and toured New Hampshire, and while we were up there, we suddenly heard, oh, Bill Clinton's going to be here. And so we promptly said to the press, wouldn't it be great to get together and have a debate about or a dialogue about election reform? Well, the White House suddenly gets this call from the press corps. Is the President willing to sit down with Newt Gingrich in New Hampshire? You can imagine what Clinton staff said.

[Gavin Newsom]

Wow.

[Newt Gingrich]

And so they then interviewed me. And I said, well, I'd be delighted because it's a great thing for America to have the two of us talk. At which point Clinton goes, oh, yeah, I guess we'll do it. And if you watch it, I mean, he's very good.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah. But I mean, candidly, it was not. I didn't enjoy it. You were. You were very good. I mean, answering tough questions. I mean, a lot of seniors are there, and you're talking about, you know, cuts to their programs and others. I mean, it was. It was. It was. It was a remarkably civil conversation at the highest level. And. But there's not been anything like that since.

[Newt Gingrich]

Well, you know, it was a tragedy. There's a book called the Pact, written by a guy, I think, at Duke, in which he found all the papers interviewed people. Bill and I actually had an agreement in late 97 that we were going to launch an effort in 98 to reform Medicare and Social Security. And he would do it in the State of the Union. I would do it in a major speech in Georgia. And we were going to work together. And then Lewinsky occurred. Well, at that point, I had to become partisan, and he had to go to the left because it was the left that was going to save him. And so, boom. But the book's kind of fascinating because it's really true. We did a lot of. We created the Hart Rudman Commission, which was the Deepest and biggest review of national security since 1948. And actually after I stepped down, even though I had helped impeach him in the House, they called and said, would you like to serve on the commission since you created it? Said yes.

[Gavin Newsom]

So that kind of relationship, it's, it's fascinating. And you're reminding me of the impeachment. I mean, so what do you. And it was the third part of that three legged stool question and forgive me for not articulating it more effectively, but, and again, this is not an indictment, but it was in the conversation of Luntz, who said he was never more proud to be associated with anything than the Contract with America, which was fascinating to me how quick he was to not only defend it, but how reverential he thought it was at the time in terms of just being a communication document, how it had transparency, how it did represent, as you said, the will of the American people, at least in terms of the 70% threshold and the fact that you submitted it to the public, meaning you tested that theory. But, but the impeachment, the toxicity, the winning at all costs, hardly knew and novel and politics. So I'm not suggesting you're, you, you, you're the, the OG in this space, but the tea part, people connect this moment to those moments. Is that fair or unfair? Did Democrats oversimplify?

[Newt Gingrich]

I think we, I think we profoundly mishandled the impeachment and I think it was partly because of Kenneth Starr. In my mind, the impeachment was about committing perjury. It actually goes back to arguments we have today about whether or not whether the Supreme Court has ruled. And I suspect had the Supreme Court already ruled, we wouldn't have had a leg to stand on. But the question was it was pretty clear that he had been convicted of committing perjury, which you know is a felony. And in fact he later on was barred from practicing law for five years in Arkansas. I thought it was important, as a matter of fact, constitutional record that a president should be held accountable. But when Starr came out with his report, it was so lurid and so related to sex that it poisoned the whole project. And I'll never forget that summer. I was home in August and my two daughters and I went to, to lunch at OK Cafe in Atlanta and they both looked at me and they said to me, if our 401ks get destroyed because of some stupid intern, we're going to be really pissed off. I thought, okay. I had clearly misunderstood the American people and how they were going to rank, how this was going to work. And in a way, Clinton's whole behavior from 92 on changed the whole context in which you deal with sexual issues in politics.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Newt Gingrich]

You couldn't imagine the Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump last debate in a pre Bill Clinton world. That's possible.

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, and of course, Bannon bringing out the ghosts of the past in the front row of that debate as well.

[Newt Gingrich]

That it was Bannon who said to me, we concluded she was going to go to the basement and we were going to get there first.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah, that was. Look, I. Look, in closing, I give me something more optimistic. Are we going to look, I'm new scum. You. I mean, here we are. I appreciate your book. Like June 3rd, we got, we got Trump's triumph, but you knew scum, everything's scum. This sort of divisiveness, this, you know, everyone's longing to figure out a way to get them back together and start to solve problems.

[Newt Gingrich]

Say as a historian, one of two things has to happen. Either there has to be a very concerted effort to reach out and to try to find bipartisan ways to work together. I just did a podcast with Ted Cruz, who had worked with the Amy Klobuchar, the Democrat from Minnesota, on which you would be very aware of.

[Gavin Newsom]

Just last week Trump signed that bill.

[Newt Gingrich]

Right. Totally bipartisan.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yep.

[Newt Gingrich]

And it's possible that you could see just enough bipartisanship on practical things begin to re knit the system. Otherwise, what has to happen is one side or the other has to win. I mean, historically, when you're in a period where both sides think it's life and death and both sides think they potentially could win or lose the drive to more and more extremism. I was very struck. Alan Guelzos, an extraordinary professor of Abraham Lincoln and Welzel, wrote me at one point in the 2004 campaign and said the level of vitriol against Trump resembles the level of vitriol against Lincoln among Southern slaveholders in the 1860 campaign. He said you can draw almost an exact parallel. And it's because both the left in its modern form and the slaveholders actually saw their way of life about to be extinguished. I mean, Trump is a mortal threat if you're aoc. He's not just, he's not just a competitor. But if he wins, her world is, shrinks radically. So you either have to get to a point where one side clearly won. This is FDR in 34, 36, where he wins so decisively that everybody operates within the Rooseveltian world. Jefferson after 1800. I would hope you could have a combination that is. I encourage constantly finding ways to be bipartisan because I think it's better for the country. It's how the founding fathers designed the system. They wanted to make it so hard that it's very, very difficult, as we just saw in the House, for a purely partisan effort to work. And that's by design. I mean, they wanted to avoid dictatorship by creating a machine so hard to work that we can barely get it to work voluntarily.

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, I appreciate it. And you have a chapter in the book. You Talk about the 250th anniversary and you know, and our pride and the best of Greek democracy and the Roman Republic. 3 CO = branches of government. I hope that's the spirit that defines that. I have two final questions over under simple questions. Speaker Jeffries. 60% chance.

[Newt Gingrich]

45.

[Gavin Newsom]

Okay, well see, we're gonna have to have another episode on that. And then 2028, President Vance, 40% probably.

[Newt Gingrich]

Runs against Governor Newsom. Vice President Vance runs against Vice President Vance. I look at some of your other candidates. I mean the governor, of all due respect, the governor of Illinois as a presidential candidate. Give me a break.

[Gavin Newsom]

I'm not, I'm not getting in the middle of all this. Unbelievable.

[Newt Gingrich]

But I would not be at all shocked to have a Newsom vance general election. 28.

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, that's a hell of a way to end this podcast. By the way. I appreciate you doing this. It's a hell of a thing and I hope folks got a lot out of it. I certainly did. And congratulations on your 44th book, Trump's Triumph, on sale June 3rd.

[Newt Gingrich]

Good sale.

[Gavin Newsom]

Good to see you. Thank you, sir.

[Newt Gingrich]

It was a lot of fun. I hope you enjoyed it.

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[Podcast Host]

For some of us, personal finances aren't just personal, they include a lot more people than ourselves, loved ones, neighbors, the communities we call home, and the causes we hold in our hearts. At thrivent, we help plan your financial picture with the bigger picture in mind. Because even though our business is helping guide your finances, our ambition is to make it mean so much more. Thrivent where money means more. Connect with [e-mail].

[Newt Gingrich]

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[Gavin Newsom]

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[Newt Gingrich]

And feels like hmm.

[Clorox Representative]

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[Newt Gingrich]

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[Podcast Host]

This is an iHeart podcast.