And, This is Pod Save America's Jon Favreau & Tommy Vietor

Summary

Podcast Summary: "This is Gavin Newsom" Featuring Jon Favreau & Tommy Vietor

Podcast Information:

• Title: This is Gavin Newsom
• Host/Author: iHeartPodcasts
• Episode: And, This is Pod Save America's Jon Favreau & Tommy Vietor
• Release Date: July 16, 2025

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Introduction

In the inaugural episode of Gavin Newsom's podcast, "This is Gavin Newsom," the Governor of California engages in a candid conversation with Jon Favreau and Tommy Vietor, prominent figures from the progressive media landscape. The discussion delves into the origins of their media venture, the evolution of their podcasting efforts, the current political climate, and the challenges facing the Democratic Party.

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Origins and Evolution of Crooked Media

[02:45] Gavin Newsom:
Gavin kicks off the conversation by addressing the name "Crooked Media," questioning its implications and origins.

[02:56] Tommy Vietor:
"We were always crooked."

[03:01] Vietor explains:
The name was coined in 2017 as a playful jab at the then-President Trump's term, particularly his frequent references to "crooked media." Initially, the name "Pod Save America" was more recognized, but "Crooked Media" became entrenched over time.

[03:25] Gavin Newsom:
Highlights the unexpected trajectory of Crooked Media, expanding beyond a single podcast to encompass multiple platforms, books, and tours.

[03:49] Tommy Vietor:
"We had no money... We had to go crooked.com, our website."

Insights:
The founders started with minimal resources, relying on grassroots support and sheer determination. Early struggles included securing a suitable domain name and funding, leading them to adopt a "fake it till you make it" approach.

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Building the Media Company

[05:11] Gavin Newsom:
Inquires about the personal sacrifices and uncertainties faced by Favreau and Vietor during the early stages of Crooked Media.

[05:18] Dan Pfeiffer:
Recounts the challenges, including living arrangements and securing their first bank account with a mere $25 deposit.

[05:51] Tommy Vietor:
Describes the pivotal moment when Bill Simmons invited them to join The Ringer, merging sports, culture, and politics into their podcasting endeavor.

[06:21] Gavin Newsom:
Acknowledges the multifaceted growth of Crooked Media, emphasizing that the exponential expansion was unforeseen.

Insights:
The transition from side gigs and consulting (including speechwriting) to a full-fledged media company was marked by strategic partnerships and a clear vision to provide progressive narratives.

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Media Consumption Habits of Hosts

[09:06] Tommy Vietor:
Shares his daily routine: reading Playbook, Axios AM, and engaging with company Slack feeds for the latest news.

[09:38] Dan Pfeiffer:
Adds that they avoid traditional cable news, instead favoring diverse online sources, including both liberal and conservative perspectives to stay well-rounded.

[10:04] Dan Pfeiffer:
Mentions listening to a variety of conservative media like Tucker Carlson and even controversial sources like Infowars to understand differing viewpoints.

[10:25] Gavin Newsom:
Emphasizes the importance of critically engaging with all forms of media to better understand and counteract misinformation.

Insights:
Favreau and Vietor adopt a comprehensive media diet, ensuring they are informed from multiple angles to foster balanced and insightful conversations on their podcast.

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Challenges in Interviewing and Content Creation

[16:12] Gavin Newsom:
Asks about the evolution of their interviewing techniques and how they manage depth in conversations.

[17:40] Tommy Vietor:
Describes a shift towards asking guests what they genuinely want to discuss, rather than tailoring questions solely to audience expectations. This approach leads to more authentic and engaging dialogues.

[18:54] Gavin Newsom:
Touches on the balance between entertaining the audience and providing substantive content, ensuring discussions remain meaningful without descending into mere talking points.

Insights:
The hosts prioritize depth and authenticity, aiming to extract nuanced insights from their guests, thereby setting their podcast apart from more superficial media formats.

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The Manosphere and Its Impact on Politics

[39:37] Dan Pfeiffer:
Addresses the pervasive influence of the manosphere and algorithms in shaping political discourse and societal norms.

[40:10] Tommy Vietor:
Explores the crisis of masculinity, emphasizing how unrealistic standards are causing loneliness and decreased confidence among young men.

[41:52] Tommy Vietor:
Discusses Ruth Whitman's "Boy Mom," highlighting the detrimental effects of impossible masculine standards on boys' emotional well-being.

[42:25] Gavin Newsom:
Connects the masculinity crisis to broader political implications, noting its weaponization against the Democratic Party and the rise of harmful rhetoric stemming from movements like #MeToo.

Insights:
The conversation underscores the urgent need for the Democratic Party to address issues of masculinity and mental health, recognizing their impact on societal stability and political engagement.

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Redistricting and Election Concerns

[58:10] Gavin Newsom:
Raises concerns about gerrymandering and the potential manipulation of electoral districts by Republicans to secure more seats.

[59:05] Tommy Vietor:
Affirms the appropriateness of exploring legal avenues for independent redistricting, advocating for state-level initiatives given the stagnation at the national level.

[60:12] Dan Pfeiffer:
Highlights the necessity of a comprehensive reform agenda, emphasizing the importance of Democratic leaders presenting clear, actionable policies to win back trust and seats.

[62:13] Tommy Vietor:
Expresses optimism for future elections, citing strategic impressions like the popularity of ACA credits and the potential backlash against Republican strategies like tariffs.

[63:19] Dan Pfeiffer:
Critiques the Democratic Party's focus on introspection over proactive branding and policy promotion, suggesting a need for more dynamic engagement akin to Republican media strategies.

Insights:
There is a consensus on the imperative to tackle systemic issues like redistricting and to adopt a more assertive, policy-driven approach to regain political ground.

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Closing Thoughts on Democratic Strategy

[78:00] Dan Pfeiffer:
Encourages continuous engagement and building media presence, drawing parallels to how Donald Trump maintained constant relevance through media.

[80:05] Tommy Vietor:
Advocates for setting broad, aspirational goals to inspire voters, rather than getting bogged down in policy minutiae. Suggests focusing on impactful objectives like affordable healthcare and homelessness prevention.

[82:53] Gavin Newsom:
Summarizes the urgency of implementing independent redistricting and enacting crucial policies to combat economic and social challenges, stressing the moral obligation to preserve democratic principles.

[85:05] Tommy Vietor:
Supports the idea of California leading by example in progressive reforms, positioning the state as a laboratory for wider national change.

Insights:
The hosts emphasize the need for the Democratic Party to adopt a forward-thinking, solution-oriented strategy that inspires and mobilizes voters through clear, achievable goals and proactive policies.

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Notable Quotes

• Tommy Vietor [02:56]: "We were always crooked."

• Gavin Newsom [05:11]: "As a parent, you wear many hats. At dinner, you're the chef... And let's face it, you're basically a full time chauffeur."

• Tommy Vietor [18:05]: "I think that, you know, I sort of automatically fell into when we first started doing it... they're more likely to just give you the talking point stuff."

• Dan Pfeiffer [39:37]: "I think they're really serious. I mean, like there's schools and school districts and I think the UK and Australia that developed entire curriculums to combat Andrew Tate. Like, it's a real crisis in a lot of places."

• Tommy Vietor [40:11]: "There's not that wellness. I know you talked a lot about RFK and sort of your relationship with him."

• Gavin Newsom [43:32]: "What do you see our party, the Democratic Party, in relationship? That conversation, it doesn't seem to me an easy conversation for a lot of Democrats because they still see men in disproportionate positions of power and influence."

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Conclusion

In this comprehensive discussion, Gavin Newsom, Jon Favreau, and Tommy Vietor navigate the complexities of progressive media, the challenges facing the Democratic Party, and the societal issues impacting political dynamics today. They emphasize the importance of authentic dialogue, proactive policy engagement, and strategic media presence to foster a more inclusive and effective political landscape. The conversation underscores the necessity for continuous adaptation and unwavering commitment to democratic principles amidst evolving challenges.

Transcript

[Gavin Newsom]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Jon Favreau]

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[Tommy Vitor]

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[Gavin Newsom]

This is Gavin Newsom, and this is Pod Save America's Jon Favreau and Tommy Vitor. When did you guys become crooked, by the way? What the hell is that?

[Tommy Vitor]

We were always crooked.

[Gavin Newsom]

No, seriously, was that a tell? Are you guys trying to tell? I mean, what were you trying to communicate?

[Tommy Vitor]

We named it in 2017 when we started.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

And more people knew Pod Save America than crooked at first, but we thought crooked media, like, it was 2017. So it was the height of Trump just won resistance. He's calling everyone the crooked media and all that kind of stuff. We were taking it back, tongue in cheek.

[Gavin Newsom]

You would take it back. You weren't just admitting to something.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

No, but.

[Tommy Vitor]

But then it's stuck. And now we don't know. Now it's just here.

[Gavin Newsom]

And so, I mean, but the point is. The point. I mean, this thing is. This thing has evolved from 2017 in ways that you can act in hindsight. Like, of course, we always knew this was our trajectory, our vision. But did you have any. No. Bullshit. Did you have any idea that this thing would be where it is today and you guys would be so multifaceted? Not just with one podcast. Multiple podcasts and books and tours, Everything else.

[Tommy Vitor]

No, absolutely not.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Absolute luck in timing. Me and Jon Favreau and Lovett, we sat in John's kitchen and we bought, like, a website on medium.com. we tried a bunch of URLs.

[Tommy Vitor]

I love it.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

We couldn't get, like, crookedmedia.com. we couldn't get crooked.com for a long time. We, like, got into negotiation with, like, the porn king of Arizona.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

There's some guy that sold porn sites in Arizona that they was going to sell it to you for crooked crooked media. And he.

[Gavin Newsom]

How much you would.

[Tommy Vitor]

He wouldn't sell.

[Gavin Newsom]

He just wouldn't sell.

[Tommy Vitor]

He just wouldn't sell.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

He was passionate about.

[Tommy Vitor]

So we had to go crooked.com, our website.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah. Or like, get crooked media. Anyway, yeah, we rolled out, like, a Medium website in one show and called it a company and just, like, fake it till you make it for a while.

[Tommy Vitor]

We also had no money. And we. I remember we went to the bank of America and West Hollywood, the three of us, and we were like, we'd like to open up a bank account. And they're like, okay, well, you need to put some money in it. And we're like, oh. So we sat there. When we, like, wrote a $25 check or something.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

We had cash.

[Tommy Vitor]

Was that woman's name, wasn't it, like.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Olga or Helga or something?

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, she helped us and that's how we started. No investor money, no nothing.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I think John turned to us. He's like, I always sort of thought I'd open a joint account for the first time with my wife.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah, that is true. But was it. Were you guys drunk one night and you said, we got some crazy idea or we're just looking for a job. Help wanted. What was it?

[Tommy Vitor]

So Tommy and Lovett and I, like, after the White House had talked about how there's not enough progressive media, right? And so we'd had. We. The three of us had been having that conversation. Then during the 2016 race, Bill Simmons reached out to me because we'd known each other. We both went to Holy Cross, and he said, so I have this new site called the Ringer, and I want to do something about the 2016 election because we mostly do sports and culture and stuff, but would you be interested in doing like, a podcast with us for 2016? And he knew Dan Pfeiffer, too, and he was like, maybe you and Dan can do this podcast. So we started doing it, became popular, and then he's like, I could do two times a week. And then Lovett and Tommy were around and we said, let's, let's do it. And so then we started doing it with. At the Ringer. And then when Trump won, we told Bill, like, look, I think we want to build something even bigger than just Pod Save America. And all the time it was called keeping it 1600. We want to do something even bigger. And it's weird to build a progressive media company, like, under the umbrella of the Ringer. So we're gonna go on our own. And that's what we did.

[Gavin Newsom]

Wow. And did you. I mean, you guys are still doing early on side gigs and sort of hedging your bet.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I lived in San Francisco. I was commuting down, crashing in his guest bedroom the whole time.

[Tommy Vitor]

We had, we had a company together. We had. We were. We had a consulting firm consulting full fledged consulting strategies. We just, we did speech writing.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Speech writing.

[Gavin Newsom]

So there was speech writing, of course, which is a good gig.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

But like, I. Yeah, but people in my life, when, you know, look, going to your wife and saying, honey, I want to move to Los Angeles to start a podcast with my friends in.

[Tommy Vitor]

My, like, late 30s, like, that's a tough story.

[Gavin Newsom]

No, you weren't 20.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

That's a tough job.

[Tommy Vitor]

She wasn't totally surprised.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Not Surprised, not sold. Wonderful person, supportive partner, lover. Came along for the ride.

[Gavin Newsom]

That'll be a good clip. We'll get that out. Seriously. I think we may lead with that. Thank you. Yes.

[Tommy Vitor]

It's nice.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

But, yeah, I mean, I think, you know, people I love desperately were, like, cool. But, you know, you got, like, a fallback, right? We do.

[Gavin Newsom]

That was it. But, you know, you just. You were all in. You just knew it was gonna.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah. Once we started Crooked, we realized that, you know, we had to move off Fenway. And also, I think we both had gotten, you know, we'd done it for three or four years. I think we've gotten sick of writing speeches for. We had some really great clients. You also, like, end up working with a bunch of.

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, you do a company mentioned corporate stuff, too. Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

And that stuff.

[Gavin Newsom]

CEOs. Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

It is hard after you've been in politics to get really excited and exercised over some CEO who, like, needs a speech in four weeks. And it's like, it's urgent. And we're like, it's not that urgent.

[Gavin Newsom]

I'll tell you urgent. State of the Union's urgent.

[Tommy Vitor]

Exactly.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I also had this sort of weird. I don't know where it came from, ingrained belief that, like, I needed to be an adult now and graduate from politics. The things I did with my friend and get a real job.

[Gavin Newsom]

Right.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I don't know why I thought that. And then throughout 2015, I'd wake up at 5am and like, just scroll Twitter for an hour and a half or too, before doing my job. And I was just. I was obsessed with politics. I could not quit it.

[Gavin Newsom]

It's interesting, by the way, is Twitter the go to in terms of just trying to. I mean. And it continues to be. Right.

[Tommy Vitor]

I mean, objectively, I've tried Blue Sky.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I have not.

[Tommy Vitor]

And it's just not. I get why people go there. I just think it's.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It's.

[Tommy Vitor]

It's not fast enough. It's not updated enough with the news. There's not enough people there.

[Gavin Newsom]

So where else. I mean, it's interesting. Just as you guys prepare for your podcast and you're just staying on top of everything and of course, making the news, which is a big part of the obvious part of your success. Where else. What's your. What is your media habit? Are you cable folks? Or you go home, turn on Rachel Maddow on Monday and wonder when she's coming back Tuesday through Friday or, you know, or, I mean, honestly, what's.

[Tommy Vitor]

I never do cable anymore. I wake up, I Read Playbook. I read Axios am, and then I immediately go to the company slack, and people are putting news stories in the slack, and then I'm looking on Twitter, and I try to have about an hour of just reading the news and catching up.

[Gavin Newsom]

First thing in the morning, go to.

[Tommy Vitor]

The New York Times, go to the Washington Post, Politico. And then after I do that, then I try to do other things, but I am constantly scrolling and getting back into the Into.

[Gavin Newsom]

Is that the menu for you? Similar.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I. Similar stuff, but I'm a sicko like you. Like, we only have Fox on in our office because we kind of like the conservative perspective. But then I like to listen.

[Gavin Newsom]

By the way, I just walked in and it said Nome swearing like a drunken sailor with Shan Ryan. Literally turns out a drunken sailor.

[Tommy Vitor]

You make a lot of appearances on Fox. We do now. Surreal. Yeah. The more you watch it, you become.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

A character and you're like, oh, I got a character.

[Gavin Newsom]

But so. But you're so. You're actually. You. You're so.

[Tommy Vitor]

You.

[Gavin Newsom]

You indulge. You're watching.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, I listen to, like, I try to listen to Tucker, especially around the Iran stuff. I listen to a lot of Bannon. I. I dabbled in Infowars recently.

[Gavin Newsom]

You're doing Infowars?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah.

[Gavin Newsom]

I mean, you just can't quit. I think it's even after the bankruptcy, like, I. You know, it's.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It's weird. It's the Epstein thing that brought you.

[Gavin Newsom]

Back to the Infowars. It was so much fun.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It was a run. Watching sort of hearing their arguments on things, I think is really valuable. And also, like, there's people who you see only clips of, and you kind of. You caricature them or decide that they're stupid or useless. And then if you see them in their kind of home environment, you realize, like, oh, these are dangerous people.

[Gavin Newsom]

I love that. And who. I mean, by the way, I could not agree with you more on that in terms of observations. One of the reasons, when I started this podcast, we had those guys on, we had Bannon on, we had Kirk on, because I don't think people were taking them as seriously as they should be taking them. But who do you. When you guys look at that universe, particularly from the conservative or even conspiratorial conservative side, who are the folks that would be in that category as folks that, you know, are weapons for that grievance, that are folks that we should pay a little bit more attention to? I mean, is it. Do you still count Alex Jones in that Space? Or is it more the Bannon types?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Tucker and Bannon are kind of the most. They're just really good at what they do.

[Tommy Vitor]

But, like, look, I think they have the most cohesive ideology, too.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And they're just like, Tucker Carlson's a very. Look, I don't agree with him on almost anything, but he's very talented at what he does. And he, like, brings in the. Like. I listened to his entire interview with Sean Ryan before I listened to you on Sean's show. Cause, like, initially, Tucker was saying some things about Trump, and Sean were saying some things about Trump being corrupt. And I was like, ooh, this is damaging to Trump. This is good. But then I got sucked in because Sean Ryan's like a Navy SEAL who became a CIA contractor who became a drug runner for cartels in Medellin. I'm like, this is the most interesting fucking guy I've ever heard, by the way.

[Gavin Newsom]

You go in his studio, and if you didn't think that was interesting, you just look at all the memorabilia he has in the stories. There's a hinge, and he explains what that hinge did and what it represented. And there's. There's machetes and there's all kinds of other things.

[Tommy Vitor]

You got a gun out of it, huh?

[Gavin Newsom]

And I got it, by the way, for the record, for the 10 reporters that have already called. Have you registered it? First of all, I haven't received it yet. Have you reported it as a gift? I haven't yet received the invoice yet. All of that will be. That will be taken care of. Just.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

You didn't leave for like, 15 hours or something?

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah. Don't you got what yours are for our interviews, right?

[Tommy Vitor]

Four hours.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Did you not.

[Gavin Newsom]

Can you believe four hours?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Did you pee during this?

[Gavin Newsom]

We had one quick break.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Okay.

[Gavin Newsom]

By the way, I got to say about that guy, it's a hell of a resume. There's a decency to him.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Oh, he seemed great.

[Gavin Newsom]

Meaning, he's like. He talks about his fam. I just. For me, the character is about, I want to talk about your kids, talk about your wife.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah.

[Gavin Newsom]

A sense of community contribution. He's. He's a good human being. I was really. I was. He created a sort of safe environment where, you know, I mean, that's where. How else are you gonna spend four damn hours going back and forth?

[Tommy Vitor]

I haven't had a four hour conversation with my wife, my closest friends, my parents, in as long as I can remember. Like, four hours.

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, this is only scheduled for three, so I Admit I missed the mark as well.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, I don't know Sean Ryan's politics. I did like come away just feeling like he really wanted to connect with you as a human being. And he seemed curious and I really respected that. There was one very funny moment in the interview where you're doing this like, thoughtful answer about masculinity in politics and you sort of do this long thing and Sean goes, do you know what the number one most searched porn term? Incest. I laughed out loud.

[Tommy Vitor]

I texted your staff when I got that and I was like, wow. Didn't realize incest porn was going to come up at our two minute, 2:30.

[Gavin Newsom]

Hey guys. Legit. You listened. I mean that was. Yeah, that was way deep in. Well, he. I thought he asked me. Well, I don't now we're going to get into the condom conversation.

[Tommy Vitor]

You were very funny. You were very funny during the condom one. Because I could hear. I could. I could see the wheels turning and you. Your mind. Because he was like, did you have anything to do with the condom lot? And you're thinking like, is he for it? Is he against it? Like, I can't tell because I do.

[Gavin Newsom]

2,000 bills a year. I mean it's been seven years. I mean I may have done something like I feel ditched and I feel guilty. Am I proud of it?

[Tommy Vitor]

And then he was like, no, I think porn is really bad for our kids. And I was like, oh, you're like, okay, okay. He's on that side of it. Okay, that's fine.

[Gavin Newsom]

You know, but it's so what. You know, look, it goes to what you guys were trying to. To solve for back in 2017 that the right. At the time it wasn't even. The big podcast was probably. Or was. Was a not dominantly right wing radio. Right. That you were kind of up against and some emerging who were. Who were there. Who was sort of the dominant right wing podcaster in 2017, 18 or were there any that were really stand out to your call?

[Tommy Vitor]

It's funny, it wasn't a. I don't think it was like a big deal back then.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I'm sure like the Ben Shapiro kind of emerged around that time. Daily Caller, Daily Wire. I don't know the dates in my head.

[Gavin Newsom]

Right.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

But yeah, I think those guys did a really smart thing. They. The right wing donors invested earlier and helped to build infrastructure and they all invested in YouTube early.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And built shows there and audience there.

[Tommy Vitor]

There's something about the format which we stumbled into. Like we didn't plan this. Yeah. But we had complained to each other and anyone who would listen. How cable and like, television interviews just, they. They force you into sound bites because you only have a five minute hit. And so you just don't get to have those conversations. And before, like, at one point, Lovett and Tommy and I pitched a television show that was gonna be like a, like, pod Save America on TV before we did the podcast.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And everyone was like, no.

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, every time we did, we did HBO thing out. Not even. Right.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, that was just our podcast.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

But then it was like we. When we tried to pitch that show, it wasn't working, partly because we're like, the conversations we wanna have are longer than, like, television executives would want to fit into a show. And once we started doing the podcast, we realized, like, oh, you get to have conversations that are more in depth, nuanced. People are more likely to be themselves the longer you talk to them. And you can sort of make the points you want to make without sounding like a fucking talking point machine.

[Gavin Newsom]

And was YouTube the weapon for you to really scale this? I mean, was it the visual? When did it become more of a visual medium than just online, just voice?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

There were some, like, inflection points seemingly in podcasting. I think one of them was 2017, when there were a lot of like, OG podcasters that came along before that time, like Simmons and Marc Maron and lots of folks. But I think there was a lot of growth in 17, which got us a lot of people's, like, first podcast was us. We built a big RSS feed. We actually didn't invest enough into YouTube until pretty recently. And that was a mistake. And it's a deficit we're trying to build out of, but that just takes reps.

[Tommy Vitor]

I think we didn't even film until the Pandemic. You weren't even filming because I remember there's a little. We have like a Dan Pfeiffer on the phone and a picture of Dan because Dan's in San Francisco. And so we used to do that because Dan would just picture.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

And then in the Pandemic, we all started doing Zoom. And then I think after that we were like, now we gotta do a whole studio and we'll do filming.

[Gavin Newsom]

What do you guys think is the biggest. I mean, if you look back at some of those early podcasts with you guys, what's the biggest change, perceived or otherwise intentional or just happenstance in terms of how you approach interviews versus how you approach them before? Have you become more or less. Fill in the blank? What argumentative passive. Good question.

[Tommy Vitor]

You know, what I've been trying to do is approach interviews thinking, what do I actually want to know from this person? And not think about it in terms of, like, what is the audience going to need and want and be happy about? And I also think that I'm trying not to interview politicians like they are interviewed on cable.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

Which I think I sort of automatically fell into when we first started doing it, because that's the. That's the example that you have. And when you interview them like that, they're more likely to just give you the talking point stuff. And when you sit down for a while, then, you know, you. You get more interesting stuff.

[Gavin Newsom]

You break them down. You break them down, and it's not.

[Tommy Vitor]

Even like, oh, you finally get news out of them that, like, their staff's gonna be pissed about. It's just, you know, like, you just listening to you for four hours on Sean Ryan, it's like, I knew I. I got to learn more about you than I learned in many other interviews. You know, it's just.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And like, not to. Not to blow smoke, but I don't think there's a lot of Democrats that could just hang like that for four hours. Like, everyone's like, oh, Democrats going rogue. And it's like, well, not the wrong Democrat. You know what I mean? That's not going to help our case.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

But, yeah, I think your question about.

[Gavin Newsom]

Logan came on that podcast too, from that first question, which.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, he did. I was expecting that was, oh, we.

[Gavin Newsom]

Have an audience question first. What? I'm like, whoa, okay, I got a gun. And then I got a gun question with Rogan. Anyway, rocky start.

[Tommy Vitor]

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[Jon Favreau]

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[Tommy Vitor]

Shipt since I signed up for target circle 360, no price markups. When I order same day delivery from tons of local stores, only a handful of alcohol retailers and items don't count. I won't lie, I've had too much fun being like markups on groceries, not in my fridge. Markups on pet food, not for my dog. Markups on tools, electronics, home goods, meds, not in my house. Anyway, it's awesome. Order [e-mail] 360 terms apply.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Now I do have a bone to pick with you though because when you.

[Gavin Newsom]

Launched at four hours, you got more than a bone. I mean I got an entire skeleton.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

When you launched this show, I had been trying to. I'd been in talks with Steve Bannon. Cause I was trying to book it. And my strategy with this was try to get Steve on. I do think it's interesting and I was kind of hoping to drive a wedge between the kind of populist wing and the Elon wing of the party.

[Gavin Newsom]

Because they were just starting to fight.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And then you had him on. And I was just like, well shit, I can't do that now. You know, I'm old news.

[Gavin Newsom]

You're old news. Steve's got a derivative of this Newsome.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Guy up north's got a new crush. You know, I can't talk to the guy.

[Tommy Vitor]

You started big with like Bannon and Charlie Kirk and now you're at us.

[Gavin Newsom]

I had Dr. Phil. Yeah, that's good.

[Tommy Vitor]

That's Good.

[Gavin Newsom]

Even Newt Gingrich, who helped run my recall.

[Tommy Vitor]

You need Phil Filler guests every once in a while. Yeah, but.

[Gavin Newsom]

So back to that. Just. I mean, when you talk about that, it's serious. I mean, you guys, you've sort of raised the bar. Your own expectation, your own excellence. I mean, how do you. I mean, is. How important are guests to you guys versus just staying current on the news and providing an insight that may not be offered anywhere else because of your own experience? I mean, how. How stressed are you about getting a Bannon type or getting whoever's, you know, I mean, getting, you know, Jeffrey Epstein's, you know, cousin on who we'd love to talk about, who's really in the list booking.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Epstein would be huge.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah. By the way, he. I'm told he's alive. Some say. Some say when in doubt. Some say.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, some say.

[Gavin Newsom]

Some say.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Many people are saying. I would say that we spend the most time on the news portion of the show, which is like, kind of the first, like, three blocks, because that's when you just. It just takes a lot of. For me, it takes a lot of preparation to feel prepared and have something to say and to feel. To reduce my own anxiety about doing something. I just have to, like, work until I feel comfortable. 100% the guest for. I think early in the show, we felt the need to go for names or electeds or to check a box in some way. And now it's a little more freewheeling, like what is interesting to the audience. And also, you know, I think we. We were very much a Democratic safe space, and we still are. And we're trying to think of ways to, like, change it up, you know, like, I, Glenn Greenwald on the other day on my foreign policy show, like, not someone that a lot of Democrats love, but has really interesting perspective on freedom of speech. And we wanted to hear it.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, I had. I talked to Ross Douthit on offline about his book on religion and, like, the existence of an afterlife, which the. I would say our audience was a little like, what?

[Gavin Newsom]

Why?

[Tommy Vitor]

What are you doing? But I was like, you know what? I read the book. I found it interesting. I want to talk to him. I also, like, we are always going to be Democratic strategists because that was our life in the White House. And so each show I see as, like, balancing a couple different equities. One is, you want to make it interesting for people. The other is I want to give people good information and not just bullshit and give them the details that they need. And then I want to make sure we are persuading people either people who aren't persuaded who are listening, or people who are already persuaded who are listening but might be talking to their friends and family. And we sort of want to give them advice on how to convince other people to get involved in politics to vote for Democrats. Right. And so that's. That's part of it too. And then we also want to be honest so that when, you know, Democrats up or do something that we disagree with, that we can say it and say it respectfully.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah. Yep. When did you guys. I mean, it's. You. Obviously we talked. I mean, it's obvious to anyone who listens to you guys. But it's. It's not just a podcast in a nutritional sense. You've kind of, to your point, sort of built a movement. Book itself was about democracy. It's about civic engagement. There was you leading with action, not just complaints and gripes. You talk about what people can do to get mobilized, organized. But one of the things that's really been remarkable to watch is how successful you've been on the road in building out events. Was that always part of the original theory of the case was that sort of table stakes in 2017 said, we'll do this by and we're going to do big events.

[Tommy Vitor]

We didn't think anyone would show up.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

No. We had this amazing agent named Kevin Shivers who worked at wme. Now is at. How about the name Casey Wasserman? Sorry, now is it. We had this amazing agent Kevin Shivers at wme. Now he's with Casey Wasserman who was like, trust me, let me build this touring thing for you. I promise you it'll work. And we're like, okay, buddy. You know? And the first time we did an event, there were like folding chairs and we didn't realize that we had to end the event and love it had to run off at like hour three to go P and governor was on the stage with us taking questions about light rail.

[Tommy Vitor]

It was a late night in Seattle.

[Gavin Newsom]

We're definitely talking about the same Jay Hensley.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And like, yeah, we slowly evolved and like kind of figured it out. But what we noticed over time is that a lot often the best shows were in red states because it turned into this like little revival.

[Gavin Newsom]

Get it? Totally get it. I was just in South Carolina and did seven, nine events and to the same every time I'm in a red state. Could be Alabama, Mississippi was out there for Biden specifically going to the red states on his behalf. Intentionally not going to the blue states. And I mean the state of mind, there is just more of gratitude. Thank you for showing up.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Exactly.

[Gavin Newsom]

Thank you for not turning your back. Arkansas was the same way. And so I'm not surprised to hear that. It didn't surprise me, even with Bernie on the tour saying, will you pardon red rural parts of California or red parts of the status? Of course.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah.

[Gavin Newsom]

I mean, that's. You're gonna get that energy.

[Tommy Vitor]

Well, because there's still, you know, 20, 30% of those red areas are still Democrats, and those Democrats are starved. Yeah. Starved for someone. But I also think that, I mean, what I've really loved about the touring is just you spend too much time in a studio with just your co hosts and you do lose.

[Gavin Newsom]

You.

[Tommy Vitor]

Like, what are people talking about? What's interesting, you don't get that just by, like, looking online and looking on Twitter and just being around people. Like, I get energy from that. And then when we go and do campaign stuff before, like, midterms and we go do. You know, we knock on doors and do canvassing and just like getting to meet people and talk to them, it does inspire you because you're like, okay, all is not lost. There's a lot of good people out there who care about this shit. And, you know, they just want to know what to do.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And Trump treats it like he treats going to events like he's a comic on the road. He tries out new material, he sees what plays, he comments back to them about how it's playing in real time. And he likes. He focus groups, everything he does.

[Gavin Newsom]

In that sense, it's interesting you said that because he. The whole new skin, calls me new scum. And he goes, oh, audience loves it. Audience loves it. And it's just. It's just like he's. I mean, he says. So it's an applause. So he's like, hey, man, I got. I gotta go. You know, you gotta go with my. It's my bass. It's my bass. Nothing. It's way of him saying nothing personal. I'm like, really? Okay. Jesus, man. But it's interesting. Just, I reflect on what you guys are doing. Reflects going back to Charlie Kirk and Turning Point, obviously, this weekend. And there was a sort of turning point as it relates to the Epstein stuff. We've danced around that a little bit and watching Megyn Kelly, who's like, I think gone full mega. She's always danced around, but is now fully in. And Charlie and of course Bannon and the who's who just teeing off. But before we get into Epstein, I mean what do you think of what Kirk is doing and how he's doing it and are there cues, are there lessons, are there concerns should be, you know, cautionary flags for Democrats. Should we be doing some of similar things but from the prism of progressive politics. What's your sort of over under on what, what they've put together.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I think it's really smart and strategic. I thought it was interesting just if for present day I thought it was interesting that they allowed so much space for conversation about Epstein because like Charlie liked to a large extent I think kind of trades his, his credibility for a seat at the table. Right. Like he, he will be on Team Trump eventually but he felt the need to let some air out of that balloon and it was, it was notable and not something Democrats always do. I think we sometimes suppress arguments and we should do more of what they did. I will say what he's built is super impressive. It did help that he got a ton of like big donor and fossil fuel money early on because they were kind of worried about libs on campus. And I think we need to think about long term infrastructure and party building like that.

[Tommy Vitor]

I mean one thing that Charlie Kirk also did that was probably smart is he goes to these campuses and finds libs to debate.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

And is not afraid to debate. And I think we are, there's enough of us now sort of turning the corner on that in the Democratic party. But for a long time it was don't go on Fox. There's no use in debating these people. And I get the reasons for that. But it's also like if you can't defend your ideas, live in front of another person who you disagree with and who may be crazy extreme but you disagree with them and they've got an audience and people are paying attention. And if you're one of the, you know, the majority of people who don't pay close attention to politics in this country than when you hear one person's message and even if there's filled with lies and all kinds of extreme stuff and you just hear the other side is just talking to themselves like you're just naturally going to say well I don't know. At least they're, at least they're showing up. At least they're debating.

[Jon Favreau]

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[Tommy Vitor]

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[Jon Favreau]

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[Gavin Newsom]

It'S interesting to me too, and it will circle back circuitously a little bit to Epstein. But I did, when I did that first podcast with Charlie Kirk, first of all, he was gracious enough to come into the studio and do the first one. And I made a comment that got a lot of blowback, including at home, because my son, quite literally 11 year old, was actually heard the night before and woke me up early. Say, are you seriously meeting with Charlie? I'm not going to school. You're taking me with you. I'm like, I thought it was a joke the night before, I thought he was just playing with me. But it's on his. He doesn't have a, we don't have a phone, he doesn't have any TikTok. It's just the YouTube that's on his school tablet and it was wired in this space. And here's where I'm going, a space where I started knowing, you know, he starts talking to me about Jordan Peterson. He says, hey, dad, I don't know Andrew Tate. You know, I think they were misrepresenting. You know, they're not as bad as you think. You know, Andrew Tate's coming to California. He just said something bad about you. You're going to respond, you know, and you know, he's got, I mean, and I'm like 11 year old. Yes.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Wow.

[Gavin Newsom]

How do you know about Andrew Tate? What's this Jordan Peterson stuff? And why are you, how do you know about Charlie Kirk? And I started talking to his friends the same thing. And he started getting it through just frankly, just game stuff. He wanted to watch YouTube games. He started, you know, he's 11 now. He's, now he's older, but he's 12 but he's, you know, he's trying to get in shape now. And so it's like body stuff and this whole quote unquote, it's overused or misused or even mislabeled. But this manosphere, there's sort of space which then gets to Epstein, gets to these conspiracies, gets to these darker Pizzagate places and gets to where we are today in our politics and what's. I mean, you guys, you've been, you've been part of this ecosystem, broadly defined. But what do you make of these subcultures and how serious those algorithms are and what that means to our body politic?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I think they're really serious. I mean, like there's schools and school districts and I think the UK and Australia that developed entire curriculums to combat Andrew Tate. Like, it's a real crisis in a lot of places. He's incredibly, I mean, what was it, 2018 or 2019? He's the most googled person in the world.

[Gavin Newsom]

World or something like that.

[Tommy Vitor]

Right.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

So it's real dangerous. I do think one thing someone pointed out to me that really stuck with me is a lot of the kind of pipeline to conservative influencer spaces are through self improvement. It's like dating advice, crypto, get rich, how to get jacked.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And we're like, there's not that wellness. I know you talked a lot about RFK and sort of your relationship with him. And you know, that's the thing I hear more than anything else from people in California. And also my wife and I had a bunch of fertility challenges and then now we have small kids, so there's sort of a pregnancy or small kid. Algorithmic poll, right. That gets you lots of stuff that takes you to anti vax or takes you to Jordan Peterson saying, you know, women are objects and it's incredibly dangerous.

[Tommy Vitor]

I think two big trends. One is there's a crisis of trust in this country and there's. We're probably distrust in almost every institution, government, media, business. And some of that is just the actual economic statistics. Right. And there's inequality and there's a whole bunch of other things around that. And then there is a crisis in masculinity. And I think I'm actually interviewing Ruth Whitman for Offline Tomorrow, who wrote Boy Mom. And my wife was reading Boy mom first and then I read it. And her whole point is that like she doesn't want to call it toxic masculinity more she says it's impossible masculinity because it's a standard that it's impossible for boys to live up to now because you're either funneled into, like, you've got to be super tough and alpha and get strong, or if you go. But also you're supposed to be tender and you're supposed to be emotionally available to women. But if you do that, then you're not masculine.

[Gavin Newsom]

Right.

[Tommy Vitor]

And so you look like these boys are growing up stuck in between and they're becoming lonely and they have less confidence in themselves and they have less confidence than trying to, you know, talk to girls. And it's easier to stay home and be online by yourself because there's less friction when you don't have to actually build relationships and go through the awkward phases of conversation and making a connection with someone. You can just be home, talk to people online, watch porn online, and like, be lonely. And it's hurting a lot of young men.

[Gavin Newsom]

It seems to have hurt our party too, because it's been politicized and weaponized a bit against us. Trump was, seemed to be very in tune and in touch with and back to this notion of the manosphere, but around the issue of masculinity and that sort of pushback against quote, unquote, toxic masculinity and how that was used as a weapon to sort of tear down men, understandably, coming out of me too and everything else. But whereas where do you see our party, the Democratic Party, because you see these trend lines, they're now becoming headlines. It's suicide rates that are off the charts. It's educational attainment where women are dominating over men. The crisis of, you know, not just loneliness, but deaths of despair, overdose rates. I mean, in every category, boys and men are struggling. Where do you see the Democratic Party in relationship? That conversation, it doesn't seem to me an easy conversation for a lot of Democrats because they still see men in disproportionate positions of power and influence. Men still getting paid more than women. And until that's equalized, they may not necessarily want to have the conversation about what's lying underneath.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, I mean, I think I was it Theo Vaughn or somebody talking about this, who's a comedian sort of in the so called manosphere. So we need a better term for it.

[Tommy Vitor]

Right.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

He's like a very popular comedian and podcaster who was talking maybe with Bernie about the way he and some friends of his community sort of reacted to being told they had that male privilege or white privilege. And he felt like, well, I'm sort of like dead broke, so that may exist in the world. And it's not me. And I think it, it closed off a conversation rather than opening it, right? So there's a part of it that's like just messaging and how you talk about these things. I think if you're, if you frame it the right way, people will listen to you. But then also, you know, you talked about this with, with Sean. Like, Trump is so malleable. Like, he's for the thing that's happening, right? So he was against crypto. And then a bunch of you read the New York Times, they had a big piece on how he was lobbying, lobbied. A bunch of them came to him and were like, we can make you a shitload of money and get you a ton of contributions for a super PAC or whatever. And he was like, sign me up. Right? And that is, you know, making him hundreds of millions of dollars, if not billions of dollars. But also, there's a lot of men who think of crypto as an opportunity to catch back off in an economy where they feel left behind by economic inequality and all the things that are bad about capitalism. And like, I'm not saying that we should be super for crypto for that reason, because I think a lot of people get scammed and people get hurt. But it's like, how do you not sound like work? Like you're going to poke your eye out with that thing to everybody, right? Like, and we're scolding them.

[Tommy Vitor]

I think the other challenge is we have to do more showing and less telling and just more setting an example for young men as opposed to, like, when you, you see the Republicans and they're like joking around and having fun. And then you have the Democrats and the Democrats are like, we have commissioned a study and we will find the young men in the wild and we will approach them. Do not cancel the young man when you see him in the wild. It's like, it's just really because, like, how we are. We analyze everything and it's like, just fucking be a normal person. Just, just be yourself. You know? But the other big thing that happened is of course, the pandemic. And you're seeing this in, within Gen Z, like there's, there's two Gen Z cohorts now, and the ones who were graduated when the pandemic hit are still pretty Democratic. Even the men and the ones who were in high school or in college when the pandemic hit. The gap between how the men voted and the women voted is the biggest of any generation, any other generation. And I said those and I don't Know, I mean, I'm hoping because I have a five year old and almost two year old, and I'm hoping that now that we have a generation below them that didn't grow up in the middle of the pandemic, that it could be a little bit better. But that's still a whole generation of kids who dealt with the pandemic who I think are. And we don't talk about. I mean, you were talking. We don't. We don't talk about it because no one wants to.

[Gavin Newsom]

No one wants to because it's a.

[Tommy Vitor]

Little ptsd and no one wants to go back to that. But that really fucked people up, especially in your formative years.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

How did you guys deal with being at home? You're the governor of a state and you have four kids.

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, not only four kids. I had 400 protesters and drones overhead and people with bullhorns waking the kids up at night.

[Tommy Vitor]

That was an extra wrinkle.

[Gavin Newsom]

It's a little extra wrinkle. I mean, I had little Dutchy, who didn't know any better with his Nerf guns, going up there and acting like he's a little member of the military and hiding out and looking at people. I'm like, brother, you're actually gonna get shot because someone's gonna believe that's a gun. Trying to explain that to a 6, 7 year old.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Oh, my God.

[Gavin Newsom]

And having ways of getting out of the house where we had to sneak out the back for. For. It seemed like a couple years. And it ended up with my oldest daughter being homeschooled because of what was happening in the class when we did come back and just getting bullied and hit. So, I mean, it is. Look, I think the biggest. I think we have an obligation. We have an obligation to have an honest, thoughtful, reflective analysis, not least of which from a policy perspective, but we have to for our own sanity.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah.

[Gavin Newsom]

In terms of our own person. The trauma everybody went through, and we're all suppressing that, and people are acting like, oh, yeah, I don't want to talk about. No, yeah, what? That's good. Okay. Yeah. Learn. I mean, just. What? Yeah, no, good. It's good. And so, I mean, it's just people went through. I mean, it was social unrest. It wasn't just a pandemic. It was everything happening on the streets and sidewalks. You talk about the National Guard. I had the second largest deployment in US History during that time of social unrest after George Floyd here in California. And then obviously all the supply chain issues and the inflationary scars and wars and now Trump again. I mean, it's been a hell of a time, so we gotta unpack all that. But look, I want to unpack just a few other things with you guys as I've got your time. As we figure out these algorithms, as we figure out how we're all living together, but online, but feeling more and more isolated, alone. But I need to understand, was Trump on the Epstein list or not? I need to know from the two of you, was Trump on the damn list?

[Tommy Vitor]

I think he is worried that he is somewhere in the files. So, like, I don't even know if there's a list. Like, I'm willing to believe that there's just no list. Okay, but there's clearly tons and tons of documents that the DOJ has, and he has now because he's gone through a criminal trial and been charged a couple other times. He knows and ran the Justice Department once before. He knows that there are plenty of court filings and documents that have all kinds of information in it. And you know, the standard to put something in an indictment is obviously not the same. So I'm sure he is concerned that, yeah, maybe he's not on a list as a client, whatever, but he's somewhere in there and it could be embarrassing.

[Gavin Newsom]

And so he told Pam Bondi, do not stifle this.

[Tommy Vitor]

I don't know.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah, well, how do you make Pam Bondi independent? How in the hell do you not know that? You seriously think Pam decided on her own as an independent Source for the AG? Mr. President, I just want to let you know, here's my decision. I won't be reduced to eliminating or providing. Give me a damn break. Come on, man.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

My theory on this has always been the conspiracy is hiding in plain sight. This guy was a rich, powerful creed with rich, powerful friends. And he used those associations to get this sweetheart deal from Alex Acosta, who was then the U.S. attorney in Florida became the Secretary of Labor. That included a non prosecution agreement.

[Gavin Newsom]

Secretary of labor. Under Donald Trump. Under Donald Trump, with Pam Bondi as the AG of Florida. I'm now getting down my own.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

That is, that's.

[Gavin Newsom]

I'm just saying that's a thread.

[Tommy Vitor]

But so now.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

But you're right, like, look, I'm like not a very. I'm very not conspiracy minded because having worked in government, you see that like.

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, you were suppressing all the UFOs. Yeah, that and also guys had to write speeches. Suppressing.

[Tommy Vitor]

Tommy also did Benghazi.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I did Benghazi.

[Gavin Newsom]

Benghazi. Benghazi.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

But also no one can keep a secret. You know what I mean? Like no one. We could fuck up a one car parade in the US Government at times. Like there's no way you can.

[Gavin Newsom]

You kept a secret about chemtrails. Why? Why have you done that for all these years?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Well, but to your point, like there was a document that came out this week because of a House investigation into the JFK assassination where we learned that the CIA has been lying about having an agent in South Florida who was like running this group of anti Castro students. They've been lying about it for 60 years. They lied about it to the Warren Commission, they lied about it to the House Investigative Committee, they lied it in the 90s to a committee on assassinations. And you see stuff like that and you're like. And also they named the dude who was running those guys in Florida to be the congressional liaison to stifle the investigation in the 70s. And you're like, okay, all right. So Trump gives a skepticism.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah, so now you guys are lying to us about UFOs and you had conversations with Obama. Tell the truth, honestly.

[Tommy Vitor]

UFOs, if they're. I wish I more to know about UFOs.

[Gavin Newsom]

You must have had conversations. Tell me, you were saying, you were sitting there, you guys are relaxed, second term, everybody won a couple martinis and you're sitting there and you go, come on, come on to the big boss. Tell the truth, man. What have you seen?

[Tommy Vitor]

I had never been that interesting.

[Gavin Newsom]

What did he tell you?

[Tommy Vitor]

UFOs. But I wish I had. If there were more, wouldn't Donald Trump have said something? He would not be able to shut his mouth about UFOs. Are you kidding? We would have gotten something from Donald Trump. Like Obama. No, Obama would keep the secret.

[Gavin Newsom]

Guys, I really don't know if I.

[Tommy Vitor]

Trust you, but this is, I think.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

The thing, I think people think out there about like classified information, which is if you have like a top secret clearance, then you can just go into like the secrets library and kind of leaf through and like, I don't really think there's a deep state per se, but there are career people and there's a lot of inertia and they're like not given goobers like me access to the good stuff.

[Tommy Vitor]

I had top secret clearance. I had never looked at any classified information. It's like I got, I got edits back from the CIA and DoD on speeches and they would sometimes just like, like cross things out with no explanation. I guess I just have to take that.

[Gavin Newsom]

What'd they cross out? Tell us.

[Tommy Vitor]

That's why I remember I was like this isn't anything.

[Gavin Newsom]

That's your book.

[Tommy Vitor]

I'm not like revealing here like what is happening.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Well then the cool thing that would happen was there would be a crisis.

[Gavin Newsom]

We just do that on signal.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And then in the crisis like something would happen and you'd go to a meeting and they'd be like, we know this, this and this through this means. And you're like holy, we could do some stuff. So that's how it would kind of come out.

[Jon Favreau]

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[Tommy Vitor]

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[Jon Favreau]

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[Tommy Vitor]

Plus, right now you have a chance.

[Jon Favreau]

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[Gavin Newsom]

All right, so let's talk about what else came out this morning. Donald Trump, as we put do this pod this morning, Trump allegedly talked to the delegation out of Texas and said not just the murderous I'm saying Find me 12,000 or so votes in Georgia. I need five Republican additional congressional representatives. We need to redistrict Texas. How serious a concern is that for you in terms of the midterms?

[Tommy Vitor]

I think it's a serious concern. I think that they also run the risk if they redraw the maps, that if there's a big wave that basically they're asking some Republicans to take on more Democratic voters than some districts. So it could backfire. It's crazy that they're and the way Trump talked about it when he was asked today, he was like, yeah, it's just picking up five Seats. Just want to. I'm just picking up five seats. Like he's just grabbing groceries.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Like he's calling Raffenberg.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, right. And then he also said he's like, in some other red states, maybe we'll do some in other red states too.

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, maybe we'll do it here in California as well.

[Tommy Vitor]

I was going to ask you about.

[Gavin Newsom]

That because challenges this little constitutional problem.

[Tommy Vitor]

That's what I was going to ask.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah, yeah. No, it's.

[Tommy Vitor]

So what do you have to. I know you have a, you know, big majority in the legislature. Legislature.

[Gavin Newsom]

We have ideas. We have ideas. I mean, the fact is you have. I mean, let me ask you this. I actually saw. I'm one of the few Democrats back in the day when we created the independent redistricting commission, which I think, personally, I think should be the case in every state.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I agree.

[Gavin Newsom]

This is ridiculous. This gerrymandering is outrageous. I don't like it on either side. And so I supported that. I remember doing that. I was mayor of San Francisco at the time when that initiative went forward, I think under Schwarzenegger, who was promoting at the time, was the governor. And I got a lot of grief from my own party for supporting, which was interesting. But I think it's the right thing to do. That said, if these guys are playing by totally different set of rules in democracies, in the ballots, which you can start to go down that it's not even a rabbit hole and argue may be the case if we're not able to get some system of checks and balances in two years, particularly going into the 2028 election where they can wire a lot of things from that position of power and influence. Is it right for me to explore. It's a question for you guys, is it appropriate for the governor of California to explore potential alternatives?

[Tommy Vitor]

It's absolutely appropriate. Like to the extent that you can find a legal avenue to do it. Yeah, right.

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, there's that.

[Tommy Vitor]

There is that. I mean, but I mean, you know, the, the John Lewis Voting Rights Act. Right. That was going to create a national independent redistricting thing. And I think it's either national or not at this point. Yeah, that's how I am. Like, I am also for it nationally, but we're not. It's just like, you know, the, the results of Citizens United. Right. Which is like we can't unilaterally disarm in the face of them, you know, exploiting these decisions and these weaknesses in the system.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Absolutely. But like kind of the, like stuffy headed Question is, it's not like a moral question, but it's a question of, yes, of course we can't unilaterally disarm. And I agree with you, and I don't think we should. But there is a more nuanced question of, like, what is the upside and value of presenting a message to voters that we're actually better? You know what I mean? And it can be like, we don't take Packer lobbyist money. We believe in principle. Like, we wouldn't do this redistricting thing because it's wrong. I'm like, I'm not agreeing with the things I'm saying right now. I think we have to win.

[Gavin Newsom]

You're very persuasive. I'm feeling very guilty right now. No, but there is a question.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

We need a reform agenda.

[Tommy Vitor]

What does that mean?

[Gavin Newsom]

No, I'm with you, man. No, it's the worst part. You don't want to become them. I mean, they win if you become them. And they shouldn't implicate us into their just mischievous and in illegal ways or in moral ways. I mean, this is hardly illegal. Now, the question for California, in terms of Texas, they have more latitude in California. It's interesting. You go back, you could do a special election. So we can go back and do that and change the state constitution that created this. We'd have to move immediately. Do two thirds of the legislature do it or call it special election. And then you'd spend hundreds of millions of dollars, both sides weaponized. It'd be one of the. You know, it'd be a big sideshow for anything going on. It would absorb a lot of resources, literally and figuratively. Or there are some other theories of the case. And that's what we're also exploring, that as it relates to the independent redistricting commission. It states in the Constitution explicitly that every census, they will do one redistrict. It doesn't say what happens in between. And the legislature is then afforded some latitude in between. And that's a legal theory that a lot of legal scholars have advanced. And full disclosure, we're looking at now. I'm looking at it in the spirit, sort of the stoics of, you know, not becoming your enemy. Mindful that I rather maintain the higher ground, some moral authority, not just formal authority. But when I look at the ground that these guys are leveling and core tenets of our democracy, our republic, being literally taken down in real time, I'd be in peril of being judged not to have lived if I don't at least explore an alternative to save our country way. I feel. I know it's a little romantic or a little overstated bloviating, but I feel that way. I mean, if these guys are literally going to rig de facto the outcome in November next year, I can't just sit back passively, can we?

[Tommy Vitor]

Look, I think the way you are framing it and started to frame it as we first started talking about this, which is if you had your way, there'd be independent redistricting all across the country. And that is not the reality we live in right now. And now before the midterms, they're trying to just pick up five seats. Like, that's just a reality that we're dealing with, and we're not going to.

[Gavin Newsom]

What DeSantis is talking about doing. He says, well, we had an extra one there. We gave up.

[Tommy Vitor]

And they. And they moved first on this. And I think if you were talking to again, just a normal person who doesn't pay attention to politics closely and asked you about it and you explained it that way, I think people would understand that. I think people be like, well, yeah, it's politics, it's competitive, and you're just. You're not going to be able to, like, just sit down and take it because you, like, didn't want to dirty your hands on it. And you'd be like, look, it's a shitty solution. It's not the way I want to do it. But like, the. The alternative is that they just redistrict everywhere. They're in control and just steal a bunch of House seats and pick their voters everywhere.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah. And deal. And it's not that. It's the consequences of that that are pretty outside.

[Tommy Vitor]

Well, that's awesome.

[Gavin Newsom]

You talk about your two kids. Your two kids, my four kids. I mean, this is what kind of world you want to live in. I mean, we're already. See. Do you guys. Are you. And forgive me, sort of moving slightly off topic, but is this shock and awe, shock even you? Are you in awe of how much this guy has done in the first six months, the damage he's done, how aggressive he's been?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, I mean, I knew there would be horrible things. I knew that. Look, people held up mass deportations, now signs at rallies.

[Tommy Vitor]

Right.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Like, that part shouldn't have been a surprise. Sweeping up at random, seemingly Venezuelan men and sending them to a transnational gulag in El Salvador where they are being tortured is shocking. Shocking to me. I think it shocks the conscience.

[Tommy Vitor]

I am constantly testing myself on making sure That I am not trying to exaggerate the threat and cry wolf. Because I do worry that maybe even in the first term, the first Trump term, I look back on some of the things that I said then and thought then and I was like, like, did we reduce our effectiveness by taking everything to an 11? And now I really do believe.

[Gavin Newsom]

Well said, man.

[Tommy Vitor]

Like especially around immigration, I mean that stuff. And look, I was after this last election, I was out there saying, you know what, we should have taken the border more seriously. And look, we're Obama people from immigration. When Obama would say we're a nation of laws and a nation of immigrants and we're gonna do deportations, but we're gonna try to prioritize recent arrivals, criminals, people with records, and then we're gonna try to do something for the people who've been here for decades and are working and you have to get in line, learn English, afe, all that. And I'm like that. I think that's where most Americans still are. And the party got away from that. So I was very. But once he took office and he started doing what he's doing, it is worse than anything I ever thought that sending them to the third countries, especially some of these third countries that are just fucking like, you know, war torn and picking up citizens, picking up, you know, people with legal status. Yeah, it's really scary based on their.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Skin color, really scary.

[Gavin Newsom]

Or if they're nearby a Home Depot or they are standing adjacent to a day labor or at a car wash. I think, you know, it's just, I just sort of fascinated because as we stand here today, just back to just sort of this normalization, there are 5,000 US military in the streets that have been deployed by the President of the United States. He hasn't deployed in this first term. He didn't employ any troops, ground troops anywhere in the world. He hasn't employed any other ground troops in the first six months. He's only deployed them in the United States to the state of California. And here in la, which just in and of itself is sort of remarkable and sobering to consider and think about almost 1,000 U.S. marines and federalized force, thousand of the National Guard and people quite literally are being disappeared. And it's not an exaggeration. I mean I've been with, I was with a 16 year old kid, mom and dad disappeared. He didn't even know how to get back in his house. He has no brothers and sisters, you know, barely learning to do his laundry, they just disappeared. 20 plus years going to the same fields in Oknard and disappeared. No contact, no consideration for this kid who was born in Ventura county and was still in school while the raid occurred. It's. And, and how the hell. The other party. I think it was one thing for Trump to advance this. It's another to see Speaker Johnson and these goddamn guys just completely complicit at this moment, you know, and as he's sitting here quoting Bible verses and it's getting pretty.

[Tommy Vitor]

It's getting worse. It's going to get worse because they, they are not getting the 3,000 arrests a day that they want. And they are also, you know, today, like, I saw news that the IRS is going to turn over, you know, a lot of information so that they can figure out who's undocumented.

[Gavin Newsom]

And they're trying to take all the state databases.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It's crazy.

[Gavin Newsom]

I mean, all of. They're coming. I mean, where. That's. I mean, like, all. I mean, can you imagine every state that people, you know, with the confidence the state would never turn it over. Of course, we don't want to now being compelled to turn over. So they're gonna start cross referencing all of that.

[Tommy Vitor]

The other, the other challenge I worry about too, is like, I don't. They do this partly because they really want to get rid of all the undocumented immigrants in this country, and maybe legal immigrants too, but they also want to spark a backlash from us. Like, they want. They want us to react. They want us to overreact.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

And so when there are people in the streets, even if it's like a couple blocks downtown in la, of course they love that and they want. So I'm also mindful, like, I don't want to say anything that's gonna. But then I hear them. And like, right before you came in, Stephen Miller was on Fox and he was like, Gavin Newsom and Karen Bass, Their rhetoric is. They are literally encouraging people to kill ICE agents. And Will Kane on FOX is just like, I know. And I'm like, that is insane to say.

[Gavin Newsom]

That is an insane thing to say. It's insane. It's disgraceful. Like, quite the goddamn contrary.

[Tommy Vitor]

Just.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah, that's a dangerous. I have empathy for these. Damn. I mean, come on. I've got these. I just think about our National Guard. These are. We had 30, almost 3,000 of these guys that were in your backyard, man. In la. And there were. People were coming up. The biggest problem we were having was so many people coming up, doing selfies, thanking them for the help during the fires. And after the fires and doing the traffic management. These are the same kids that now have been told to put masks on. These are police officers and firefighters. They literally are being taken off the streets. They're paramedics, they're teachers that are supposed to be teaching summer school. And they're being used as pawns. So I mean, Stephen Miller, I care about those kids. You don't. You're using them as pawns.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

That's right.

[Gavin Newsom]

You're using the military as damn ponds.

[Tommy Vitor]

And that's why I've been.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I know you get, I know you get this better than anyone, but like, like it's so I heard it in your conversation with Sean Ryan because he's like, I saw the clips on X and it looked like hell and those waymos. And like just explain to people the disconnect from what they saw on social media and the reality of living in Los Angeles. Like, first of all, this city is so scarred from those fires that were six months ago and they were absolutely terrifying. Every, like, just imagine here, listener, you're going to bed, you have two little kids and you're like, is my house gonna burn? Am I going to be able to.

[Tommy Vitor]

Drive out of here?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Like, those are the thoughts people were having, right? So six months, whatever. A few months later, these communities in Los Angeles, mostly Latino communities, immigrant communities, are being terrorized by these ICE agents wearing masks, throwing people into unmarked cars, not wearing uniforms. And like they're not getting criminals off the street. And my friends are like, oh well, aren't there horrifying protests? No, no, it's like three blocks downtown. Yeah, it was, it was completely manageable by the LAPD. They've taken care of bigger messes in.

[Gavin Newsom]

1600 CHP and LAPD. I mean 1600 surrounding a couple square blocks. I mean just, it's just, it's Orwellian. But ICE guys are putting out and.

[Tommy Vitor]

I've told people too, like we, this is why we have. We also have to remember too, for the guard, for the police, even for some ICE agents too. Right? Like, you can't make them the enemy.

[Gavin Newsom]

No, that's it.

[Tommy Vitor]

Because first of all, a lot of.

[Gavin Newsom]

The Democrats don't want to be careful about that. That's my point. Yeah. I mean when we say abolish this or abolish that, I mean, we're still climbing out of the damn defund police stuff.

[Tommy Vitor]

I know.

[Gavin Newsom]

And you know, even, you know, we've had some well known Democrats defund ICE back in the day. I mean, just, I hope we're. This is exact I mean that truly is what these guys want right now.

[Tommy Vitor]

It's just so easy to be like we, we need immigration enforcement in this country. We do, we do. We don't need a fucking secret police that answers to Stephen Miller, the largest.

[Gavin Newsom]

Private secret police in the world. Now with the money that's coming in from this big beautiful betrayal, wasn't there.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

A California bill that said that they would have to not wear masks?

[Gavin Newsom]

So back to you guys asked that, that very stubborn question about well, what about the Constitution and the law on the issue of redistricting. The question of the Constitution and law as it relates to a state's right to enforce or determine the enforcement or demand a prescriptive act of a federal agent, meaning can we legally enforce the federal rules around masking? And so it's an open ended question. That said there is not only a bill, it's been amended this week, it will be on my desk very shortly. And based upon how it reads, we're making a lot of amendments. But how could I not sign that? Just if nothing else to send a message. I mean, no identification, no warrants, I mean, I'm sitting there, you know, I mean how many states you got people running around concealed carry? I mean if some masked person came up to me and tries to throw me in the back of a white van.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah.

[Gavin Newsom]

I mean how in the hell are we not going to have some problems.

[Tommy Vitor]

Which has been happening. Right. Like there are people who've impersonated ICE officers who are trying to assault people.

[Gavin Newsom]

Rob people and it will only, and you know, I mean that. But you know that's going to get worse. And so it's not an unfair question. Like I understand the doxxing. There's, there's, they always go to these exceptions and they try to prove that as a rule. So there's some balance anyway. I, yeah, we're, we're, we're just going to, there's a federal, obviously the way to solve for this. What Cory Booker and a few others. I think Padilla's got a bill with Booker to do it at the federal level. In the absence of that, states are going to have to try to push back and see what we can and test fate and the courts and see what the limits are. But, and by the way, we've had wild success in the courts. California's sued more than any other state. We're winning 80 plus percent or at least the preliminary injunctions and winning some of the early decisions as we did with the 122 lawsuits we had against Trump 1.0 won the vast majority so they still the overreach of this administration still is next level of legendary Time.

[Jon Favreau]

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[Tommy Vitor]

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[Jon Favreau]

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[Tommy Vitor]

Especially useful when summer indulgences and busy.

[Gavin Newsom]

Schedules come into play.

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[Gavin Newsom]

Let me ask you guys this in closing. You, you know, I'm so it was interesting to hear your former boss a couple days ago at a fundraiser in New Jersey and he said, you know, Democrats need to step up. I know you guys been talking about this and we need to be more aggressive, more assertive. But he also implied, you know, let's not look for the guy or gal and the white horse to come save the day in 2028. Let's, let's get our shit together every day between now and then and not lose sight of what's right in front of us. Give me your over under on assessing your former boss's comments, the timing of them, the tonality. Yeah, you're on the spot. Don't give me the political answer. Don't be a politician here and don't even be a pundit. Tell me personally, what's your sort of sense tonally of where the party is as a leader of the party? Barack Obama made these comments. Obviously they've been debated. They resonate with me. How'd they resonate with you?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Look, I think that what's been heartening in the last few months is the way you've seen individuals step up. Different Democrats stepping up. Right. Like a lot of people have said comments to me like I didn't really like Gavin Newsom, but I like that he's fighting. And I think I might like him now.

[Tommy Vitor]

Right?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Like Chris Van Hollen going down to El Salvador, meeting at Brigo Garcia. Like, I didn't know I was a big Chris Van Hollen fan, but now I am, right? So people are stepping up in ways big and small. One thing we're working on here at Crooked Media is we have a pilot program going where we're trying to encourage our audience that live in Arizona, Texas and North Carolina to run for office at every level. Dog catcher, you know, like school board, everything. Because we just don't want any race to go unopposed. I think we've got like a thousand people who've tried to sign up so far. So we're just trying to, like, rally people, have people feel like they have agency and they can do something, especially in this moment. I think Obama's comments are right. I think he's also in a tough spot because a lot of people miss him. They feel like he's been absent. They want him to speak out on more things. I think it was especially complicated for him during the Biden administration because there's a bit of a fraught relationship there. And there were just a, you know, some issues that people probably really wanted to hear Obama on, like Gaza, he was just the wrong messenger. Like, Joe Biden thinks that he is the Netanyahu whisperer and was not going to listen to anybody else on that. So I do think, like, I would. I love to see Barack Obama out there more. Yes. I think sometimes us political advisors, us hacks. I'm looking at John now.

[Tommy Vitor]

You.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

We get in a mindset where it's like you save your powder and you go out two weeks before midterm, and that's how you win an election. And I think what Donald Trump taught us is he did constant care and feeding of this kind of media world, built their audiences, built his profile, built a brand for Maga and himself, and that was more effective. And we need more of that, like, kind of, you know, 24 7, 365 work.

[Tommy Vitor]

I think there's a few things going on with him. And, you know, one of his comments, I think he said something like, we can't be. It's too much navel gazing. Yeah, navel gazing. And if you. Again, we talked about this earlier. If you look at the news and you look at news about Democrats, it is inevitably Democrats talking about how to win back someone we lost and what do we do and what's the future of the party. So there's a lot of navel gazing, which we always do as a party, especially now that we've lost a second race to Donald Trump. So I think people's. I think people are not trusting. When I say people, I mean, like Democratic politicians, a lot of them are not trusting their instincts anymore because you're like, how does. Donald Trump won the presidency twice after an insurrection. After. You're right. Like. And so maybe nothing I believed about politics is right. Right. So there's a lot. There's extra caution. And so I think he was talking about that. I think he. I know he is, like, extremely concerned about this. I also know that he believes that he has a very big presence and that when he's out there, that a lot of other people don't get oxygen. And he feels very strongly that he needs to make way for a new generation. I also think there's. I was president for eight years. I gave you this much of my life. And I, like, I can't keep doing this all the time. There's a little bit of that. But I also know that when he gets out there, like, you know, I winds up. Yeah. I, like, worked with him around the. I worked with him around the convention, and that was like his. He was first. He was back. He was doing the convention speech and he was like, the more we worked on it, the more he got into it, and he was like, and now I'm psyched and I'm ready for the speech. This is great. And I want to hit the trail. So it's like, he is still a political animal, but when you're. The longer you're out, I think the harder it is to get back in. And I do think there is. I think there's plenty of space between Barack Obama being out there every day in Donald Trump's face, which I don't think is a good idea, and, like, not doing much at all. Like, I think there's a big space in between there. And I think he's just got to figure out, like, how he's going to be the most useful, because that's how he thinks. Right. It's not like, what about my brand or what about this? Like, how can I actually be useful in moving the ball forward? What's actually going to be most effective coming from me? And because he's, you know, cerebral like that. And I think that's probably what he's trying to figure out.

[Gavin Newsom]

Are you guys just. You're over. Under. On. On 16 or excuse 1626, which, I mean, sitting here today with all, you know, the big beautiful bill. Smart. A lot of the provisions don't, I mean, we're gonna assert, but we can't prove the impacts necessarily on a lot of them. Some very much so, but some will be delayed intentionally. What's your over under in terms of how we're going to fare?

[Tommy Vitor]

I will say on the, on the bill. Tony Fabrizio, Trump's pollster, had a memo out today and he found in most of the battleground districts, Republicans running behind. He also tested the extension of the ACA credits and found that it is wildly popular to extend those credits. And that is going to start, people are going to start getting those notices this fall right away that their premiums are going to go up.

[Gavin Newsom]

We're expecting 2 million people to have premium increases on that just In California alone. 2 million. And we expect, based upon legitimate conservative prior experience, 600,000 people will drop out because they can't afford the premium increases. So just that alone, that's not the 3.4 million in California that we expect would lose under Medicaid. Our Medi cal separate above 600,000 just on that alone. So that's interesting and I appreciate that memo coming out and that being illuminated.

[Tommy Vitor]

And I and yet his suggestion is that Republicans should vote to extend the credits. Like we'll see if they actually do.

[Gavin Newsom]

That because it's separate above in the bill.

[Tommy Vitor]

But look, they, when we passed the Affordable Care act, we owned everything that went wrong with the health care system. And guess what? Now they now they passed Trump's health reform and they gutted Obamacare to give rich people a tax cut so they own everything that goes wrong with the health care system. Now your premiums go up, you're pissed at your insurance company, your rural hospital closes down, it's all on Trump. And rich people get a tax cut. And by the way, you're paying for more. You're paying more higher prices because of his dumb fucking tariffs. Right? So I think I feel good about the midterms, but I also feel like Democrats need to. And I know, you know, a lot of strategists don't agree with this, but I think Democrats should talk about what they'll do if they have power again. And now you have to be careful because we win back the House and Senate. Basically all we can do is stop harm. You know, like we can send out subpoenas, too, but, like, who knows if they'll even respond to the subpoenas. So, like, we don't have, we can't over Promise. But I think we can say, look, this is part one of a two part step, you know, two parts thing here where we take back the Senate and the House and then hopefully take back the presidency. And then when we do that, this is, this is our ideas. Like this is what we want to do for people.

[Gavin Newsom]

Well, let me end on that because now we're extending this one quick time because on that it's just so interesting. So I had Frank Luntz on my pod and I had Gingrich and obviously we're going to talk about the contract on America or with America, however you want to phrase it. And it was really interesting. Frank calls balls and strikes about Newton. Newt obviously will toot his own horn. And it's just interesting the perspectives. But the potency of that at the moment was obviously outsized. The political utility of having an agenda, holding yourselves to account on the agenda, sort of scoring your own progress and having some transparency. It wasn't just that as a document, as a weapon to get into power, but how they actually utilized it. Is that something the Democratic Party should be working on along the lines of what John just said? I mean, we. Right now?

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yes, yes, yes. I think like, like I am, I'm hopeful about 2026. I feel like you kind of have historical trends and also the thing I'm really watching is just inflation and prices and like the tariff stuff, it has not bit yet, but none of it makes sense. Like we're putting a 50% tariff on Brazil today because we think Bolsonaro, who tried to stage a violent coup.

[Gavin Newsom]

Bolsonaro is a national security.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

She's a. Yeah, it's a national security emergency that was necessitating 50% tariff.

[Tommy Vitor]

Right.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

So like none of this makes sense. He's not addressing costs. That's what people really care about. And I think that'll bite him in the ass. I hope, I hope, I hope healthcare stuff, maybe we'll figure out if we can, we can sell that. But I think Democrats have done a lot of work trying to figure out what went wrong in the last election. Media podcasts like, like, hey, it turns out Biden was old. We haven't done a lot of work.

[Tommy Vitor]

Too, by the way. We're guilty. Yeah, we've been doing it.

[Gavin Newsom]

Right.

[Tommy Vitor]

We're not like we haven't, but we're.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

We'Re not the party. We haven't done a lot of work on ourselves. Like, how do we fix our brand problem? How do we, how do we make.

[Gavin Newsom]

You think that you didn't like the 27% in March. And then NBC poll.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Oh, yeah, like, what happened?

[Gavin Newsom]

At least we got 27%. I mean, it could have been 25.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Could have been 2. How do we become a party that people want to. First of all, movement, people want to be a part of that is fun and inspiring and exciting. And also just policy positions that get back to first principles, like anti war for working people, ethical. Right. Like, what's our reform agenda? And I think whether it's a Contract for America or like a policy proposal, there's got to be an alternative that you can turn to that isn't just Trump bad.

[Tommy Vitor]

And thinking back to the 2020 primary, how many fucking debates did they go into the minutia of Medicare for All proposals.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Implementation.

[Tommy Vitor]

Implementation, right. Which is what we do. Like, imagine if instead of arguing about this, we were just like, what's a big goal that people can grab onto? Right? Which is, Trump has done that. Mamdani did that in New York. Right? What if we just said, like, all right, no one ever has to pay over 10% of their income for healthcare. And how. Well, we're gonna look, we're gonna. It's gonna be a mix of credits, government expansion, whatever. We're gonna figure it out. That's our goal. Everyone who works should be able to live in house and never be homeless. That's it. We're gonna figure out where to build more houses, we're gonna figure out rent. Like, I just think that we get into the policy details of, like, how we're gonna get it done. And we need to be more like, here's a big goal that people can grab onto.

[Gavin Newsom]

And.

[Tommy Vitor]

And it's. And it's a good contrast with them, and then just go from there.

[Gavin Newsom]

I love that. And just to close the loop on this, who does that? I mean, you say it through the prism of, all right, presidential aspirants. And they're all putting out their damn white papers and they're trying to shape the party conversation. You have the sort of DLC version of this and the Bruce Reed folks from. And we need a version of that 2.0 community opportunity, responsibility type agenda that can frame broadly those values and then we can back into them. Is it Nancy Pelosi working with Jeffries? Is it Ken Martin? Is it state Democratic Party parties? Is it mayor, you know, this, or governor that? I mean, who is it?

[Tommy Vitor]

Look, I think. I think California has always led the way.

[Gavin Newsom]

For those listening. If you saw this son of a bitch's face, really.

[Tommy Vitor]

Starts here in the.

[Gavin Newsom]

Future, happens here First America.

[Tommy Vitor]

We are the laboratory.

[Gavin Newsom]

That's this. Well, you know what? On that we will close. To all you listening from the great state of California, it's been my place.

[Tommy Vitor]

This was really fun. Thank you for having us on.

[Gavin Newsom]

I like having you on the other side of this.

[Tommy Vitor]

Honestly, I love it.

[Gavin Newsom]

Thank you guys.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

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[Gavin Newsom]

And with my busy schedule, having reliable.

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[Tommy Vitor]

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[Gavin Newsom]

This is an iHeart podcast.