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Gavin Newsom (2:38)

Lawsuit against the Trump administration on behalf of the people of the state of California, asserting that Trump does not have the unilateral authority to impose one of the largest tax increases in US History. Impacts of these tariffs are disproportionately being felt here in California, the number one manufacturing state in America, a state that will be significantly impacted by this unilateral decision by the president of the United States. I'm looking forward to talking about that more with my next guest. We'll talk trade, we'll talk tariffs. We'll talk about what happened in the last election. Is this 2004 all over again? Are Democrats ready for a big comeback? And what does the future hold to my next guest? Is he running for president? United States, this is Gavin Newsom. And this is Rahm Emanuel. Ron, thanks for, for coming on the show. And before we get started, there's so many issues that I want to get to in a relatively short period of time. We'll talk obviously about the, the state of the Democratic Party, the state of our Union, tariffs issues obviously related to your service and time in Asia. But top of mind this week is so much of the attention on Harvard University and their pushback, which, you know, generated a lot of interest, including from your old boss, President Obama, who tweeted out a very positive statement on behalf of Harvard asserting that it's time to assert universities, to assert themselves more aggressively as it relates to what Trump's trying to to do. I'm just curious what your thoughts were on Harvard and moreover, what's happening with higher education in respect to the Trump administration.

Ryan (4:23)

Well, I'm of a couple minds on higher education and one is, I mean, I don't think anybody's pointed this out, but you know, Donald Trump started his kind of introduction into public life in one way or another with Roy Cohn, who is Joe McCarthy's right hand man. And the attack on universities infamous back in the McCarthy era, squashing both the role the universities played in our life and also academic freedom. And that's one element. The second element is, you know, having been in Japan, but I knew this without going to Japan, the American university system, I mean, California, you know this firsthand and its role that it plays from a research and development on cutting edge technologies, new entrepreneur, not only entrepreneurs, but new entrepreneurship, new ideas, new business models. I met somebody from Stanford the other day in the AI space who's now got a company that's an example of what is so unique and people, Japan, Israel, I can give you all over the world, in Europe, all admire what we have built year over year over year. And not only is the political freedom happening but we're actually now killing the goose that laid the golden egg for America's economic competitiveness. Then third, if you think of the future on the international level as a battle, not of a Cold war in the sense of ideological Soviet Union versus the free world, but as a technological battle and competition between the United States and China, we are really unilaterally disarmed. Then fourth, and finally, Governor, I take offense as an American and as a Jewish American, the idea that you're going to use antisemitism or the. What universities had as a culture, and I think there's a legitimate point to address that and reform that, but using anti Semitism to literally destroy our academic institutions and university. And that's how they're getting the goods through customs. So, quote, unquote, dealing with antisemitism. And, you know, you know, you and I are talking on Passover, the week of Passover, the idea that the Jewish community would find any comfort with one person's opinion as opposed to the rule of law. I got 2,000 years of history that tells you that doesn't turn out well. So I said, I can go at this like five different angles. And I'm hoping Harvard, and not just Harvard, but other universities, other law firms, other institutions. And I would say that to the Supreme Court, you're going to find out whether that black robe is a Halloween costume or you actually earned it and understand it because he's challenging you. There's nothing sacred. So everybody's gonna have to decide, you know, and reach deep down Harvard has. Other universities are gonna have to do the same and decide that, you know what? There's something, a set of principles here that are more important than accommodation.

Gavin Newsom (7:31)

No, and I, and I appreciate the reverence on the rule to law, particularly as it relates to the Supreme Court. But I'm just curious. I mean, it's interesting. You sort of an origin story with Roy. With Roy that I hadn't really considered. But what, I mean, is there something. I mean, you know, he. He talks often, Trump, doesn't he, about how highly educated people are. He's always impressed with people's looks. He's impressed with their education.

Ryan (7:53)

Well, looks has nothing to do with how educated you are.

Gavin Newsom (7:56)

No, no question about that. But what is. I mean, so it's. It' interesting thing to me, just as an observer, someone watches obviously trump closely this notion that higher education, some establishment pot. Is there some. Is this a political agenda? Is this a 2025 agenda?

Ryan (8:12)

They're getting their goods through customs here. Look, first of all the whole idea of tenure for professors was built coming out of the McCarthy era, so you could not be prosecuted for your political views. That's the origin of it. That's where tenure as a concept is nurtured. If I'm reading history correctly, that's where it comes from. And professors were given ability to be protected professionally for, and not being prosecuted for any political expression or views. And now were there things that universities got way off track on 100%. Were there reforms that were needed to be done? Yeah, and there's not a university president or a board member that wouldn't tell you that was true. Destroying the academic, not only freedom, but also the research elements and trying to coerce their behavior. Now, we're going to the worst of McCarthyism, and I don't think it's a coincidence. I think it's actually correct. Donald Trump's mentor in public life is Roy Cohn, who was also Joe McCarthy's mentor and sidekick. And so we're living in a period of time, and I don't think, I don't think I'm being dramatic or hyperbolic, but that's the period of time these institutions, not just Ivy League, but public universities, well, have a history of then having stood up, having their voices heard and pushed back. And I know you want to stay in this area, and I just. So I just say this. I find it offensive that you're using, quote, unquote, anti Semitism that was perpetuated on the universities to really deal with your political agenda. So let me just say this, like the student at Columbia, I disagree with his views on Hamas. I disagree with what happened on, obviously, what happened on October 7th. You want to deal with him in some way, have him force him to do community service as an intern at the Holocaust Museum for a year. Right now, all he was, he was expressing his views, which I find abhorrent, and I think the American people will see it. Killing 1200 citizens because they were Jewish is not acceptable. Cutting a fetus out of a woman is. Is not only unacceptable, it's a crime. Okay. And you want to identify with that, we can handle that as a country without having to destroy either Columbia University, Harvard University, or a public university.

Gavin Newsom (10:46)

Well said. So. No, look, I, I appreciate that. Of course, I'm, you know, I served on the UC Regions board as a lieutenant governor and governor. No more precious system. From my perspective, in terms of conveyor belt for talent for this country and the research and development component of that, and you're extending beyond that. I mean, the NIH grants and all of the other efforts to really wreck the systems.

Ryan (11:08)

Put the research aside. Could you reform it? Yes, the universities were skimming some dollars. That's an easy way to reform. But don't throw out the goose that lays the golden egg. The second is as it relates to academic, not academic freedoms, things that were done to Jewish students, Jewish culture, Jewish life on universities that would never be accepted to any other minority group.

Gavin Newsom (11:32)

That's right.

Ryan (11:33)

And that too had to be dealt with. And the universities being forthcoming about that would be helpful. But don't use antisemitism or the attack on the Jewish community at a university to as your way of getting your goods through customs to actually fulfill a political agenda that was articulated in Project 2025 way beforehand.

Gavin Newsom (11:54)

That's right. So let's, you know, and just sort of segue from Harvard. I mean there are a number of Harvard graduates that happen to be members of the Supreme Court. And you referenced the Court and obviously another big story in the last few days has referenced in the Oval Office visit with President Bukele of El Salvador and the conversation that was very publicly held in the Oval Office related to issues around the Supreme Court's 90 decision and the defiance, apparently the defiance of Pam Biondi, the Attorney General and obviously the President himself, including the President of El Salvador, as it relates to that ruling. I mean, how concerned are you? People have talked about a constitutional crisis. They talk about red lines. They talk about the foundational principles of our founding fathers, three independent branches of government. When you defy or apparently defy a Supreme Court ruling, have we crossed that red line? Are we on the other side of this? Are we being hyperbolic?

Ryan (12:51)

Well, I don't think you'd be hypocrisy. Look, I think we're going to find out whether the black robes that the members of the court wear are a Halloween costume or they represent the dignity of the court and its opinion as a co equal branch of government. They were not ambiguous as it related to the individual in that the United States acknowledged they wrongfully sent to the El Salvador prison. Now the court is either going to show that not the Court's opinions are the final verdict and opinion now need to be executed by the executive branch. And if he defies them and they take no step that, you know, there's a lot of ways of dealing with, I mean, you know, individual citizens that are held in contempt of the court. There's a lot of different ways to deal with this. And look, I go back to when Chief Justice Roberts was being confirmed by the Senate. He said the judges are like umpires. That was his words. They call balls and strikes. Well, you called this one. Now, either you're going to allow your opinion as a umpire, which I happen to think is a horrible metaphor, but you used it and you're going to let it, your opinion, hold the day, or basically it's a fungible opinion. It doesn't matter what you say. Now, I'm not a lawyer, I don't know if you are governor, but I studied the Constitution and I always understood there were three branches co, equal branches of government, not one above all others. We're going to find out something about the court, not just the president.

Gavin Newsom (14:33)

Amen. The best of Roman Republic, Greek democracy, independent co, equal branches of government, popular sovereignty, sort of fundamental principles. We've been celebrating for 240 plus years. Look, we've also been sort of reflecting in the last few weeks the years and years that Donald Trump himself and back to, I think the origin story. And I think it's really interesting and insightful how you began the conversation as it relates to Roy Cohen and in the history of McCarthyism in relationship to this moment. And so much I think about Trump goes back to sort of indelible ideological perspectives that he had for years and years and years. And I don't think we give enough credence to that, including on the issue that connects to you in a more modern term and your ambassadorial time in Japan. And that's the issue of tariffs, where Trump, I think, I think in the 80s put out a full page ad, if I recall, around how unfair trade policy was and how Japan at the time was cleaning our clock. And here we are, fast forward with all these tariff policies. So are you surprised that we're where we are? Obviously you have strong opinions about the recklessness of it. But, but from an historic perspective of that perspective of that prism, does it surprise you what he's, what he's advancing, what he's advanced?

Ryan (15:53)

Let's deal with a couple things that I think are all in there. One is it doesn't surprise me either he said he was going to do the tariffs. What surprised me is the erraticness because it was the one constant thing he said in the campaign, one constant thing, as you said in his, in his public life. And it's been the most erratic, not thought through most. I mean, as opposed to kind of the Project 2025 stuff that he didn't mention that's been unbelievably like there was a strategy book here. Is what he did mention. And it's just every day is a new day. Look, it's the largest tax increase in American history, full stop. Two, it's a corrupt system because whoever goes to mar a lago gets a cut, gets a bet, gets a cut. As you're seeing on cars, you're seeing.

Gavin Newsom (16:40)

If I could pause on that, I think that's the most underreported part of this. The regressive tax side is one thing. What this means for crony capitalism is another.

Ryan (16:49)

This is the worst. Of course, as I said when he first got elected but wasn't inaugurated here, he's going to turn the Oval Office into ebay as the highest bidder and if it ain't nailed down, he's going to sell it. And it's crony capitals. Here is my another P. And it's affecting the dollar. It's affecting this. Your 401k. But here's the other piece. 20 years ago, China was on the rise and America was seen as stagnating decline. That's right. Xi does a couple things. That is the worst economic damage any one person could do and he did it to China. He bust the housing bubble, he busts the municipal debt bubble. He cracks down on the private sector. Foreign investment flees, foreign entrepreneurs flee. Entrepreneurs in China stop and the economy goes into what people were referring to as a Japanese style deflation. And youth unemployment shoots way up. United States is on the rise, money is flowing in, unemployment is down, manufacturing is coming back. China's strategy in that scenario is we're going to export our problems through manufacturing all across the globe. Chile lose its only steel plant. South Africa is about to lose their steel plant. Countries that align with China, Brazil, Mexico file WTO cases against China. We're the safe harbor, we're the adult. That is the United States. What happens, we do these tariffs are erratic and then all of a sudden China looks like a place of stability and we look like the chaos agent. Rather than China being isolated in the world, aligning with the United States, the United States gets isolated and we have turned. We had China and they knew it. They said it. This doesn't require interpretation. China said, you're isolating us. We took advantage of China's ongoing. They did to themselves economically through their mercantilism. What their wolf warrior was on the diplomatic front and we used it strategically better than we actually assumed we could do. And we just committed the worst on goal and snapping, literally ripping the victory from the jaws at the feet. And now we're the Isolated party. And what's worse, and let me say this is a father with two children, one full time in the other reserve enlisted in the Armed Forces. 1979, Governor was the first time the United States deployed a sanction that was on Iran and used its economic power and the power of the dollar so we didn't have to do something kinetic militarily. We refine this and really become experts going through the war on terror and we had built up the capacity. One of the things that China and Russia hated was the United States through the dollar could economically punish you in a way that it didn't have to require the US military to do it. But we could use our economic power and our power of our dollar. We have destroyed, destroyed, not inhibited one of the most important tools we have developed over 50 years to punish an adversary without putting men and women in the United States uniform at risk. This is, as my grandfather would say, a shanda. It's a crime committed against ourselves. Yeah, it is ridiculous. Now, most importantly, the American people, I give them a lot of credit. It took them, they didn't go to Harvard, they didn't go to Columbia, they didn't go to.

Gavin Newsom (20:33)

They didn't, they didn't even get a four year degree.

Ryan (20:35)

Most of them knew that a tariff was a tax on day one and they knew they were going to get hosed.

Gavin Newsom (20:40)

That's right.

Ryan (20:40)

Figured it out without going to business school, knew it up front, rejected it. And he is showing the political peril of his own position.

Gavin Newsom (20:49)

Yeah, we completely betrayed them. Right. I mean by definition, number day one, bringing down prices, number one promise.

Ryan (20:56)

Look, the one look, we have our own problem as Democrats. We'll get to that in the rest of this podcast. But the one thing you can say about Donald Trump, he'll betray you and stab you in the back. And he's doing it all. And the American people are going to punish the Republicans for this. And you saw it in the elections.

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Gavin Newsom (24:49)

So let me, and I, and I definitely would look forward to talking about the political implications, but let's just talk about the practical. I mean, because you've, I mean you, you've, you've experienced firsthan up close our, our efforts, particularly during the Biden administration. I really applaud those efforts, particularly with Japan and Korea in relationship to China. You were very vocal, very vocal, more than any ambassador, which took some courage, I thought, against China. You, you've seen this sort of geopolitical shuffle. I mean, what, what are, what are they saying? You know, Trump's now saying we're respected around the world. What are they saying in the halls with our allies? I mean, how consequential is this to trust and how long is this wound going to fester?

Ryan (25:37)

I would say to you, Governor, first of all, in 80 days, he's destroyed 80 years of credibility of the United States, a big hit on our credibility. You can look at Indo Pacific, you can look at the Middle east, you can look at Europe, you can look at Africa. No one region is more outweighs another. The most important thing post Donald Trump is somehow restoring trust and credibility to the United States Board. People are ridiculing the United States not just in word, but also in deed. I work tirelessly and I give the President and the national security apparatus credit. With my colleague in South Korea in the historic coming together at Camp David between the President, the President of South Korea and the Prime Minister of Japan, we all three countries have a complicated history. We came together, saw the future as more important than the past and embraced it and shaped it. Two weeks ago, China brought together the foreign ministers of Korea and Japan. With them, they announced an economic partnership that they're going to develop Korea that was essential to their export controls against the semiconductor industry in China. Samsung, the shining corporate semiconductor company in Korea, announced an agreement with a Chinese company. Now nobody's respecting the United States, nobody's trusting the United States. They're looking out for their own self interest. That meeting between China, Korea and Japan never would have happened on the kind of level it happened with the outgrowth that happened had we not committed and isolated ourselves with a tariff policy that hit ally and adversary with equal force. It's an ongoing. There's no other way to describe it.

Gavin Newsom (27:29)

Would you extend. I mean obviously there's a lot of talk now in South Korea about the prospect of a Korean peninsula where everyone is a nuclear power. Obviously there's now renewed conversations which is remarkable to me. You would understand it better than anyone in Japan even. I mean, do you think that's an outgrowth of this moment or is that a more complicated question that may predate the recklessness of Trump's tariff announcements?

Ryan (27:55)

So one is everybody used to say oh about non proliferation. It was expensive what we did. You're about to get sticker shock on proliferation here. We spent a year and a half I was more on the sidelines on this one of convincing Korea not to go nuclear but to bide with the United States. In a whole process on that fast forward, what happens is I think Korea is going to look at the United States as an untrusted ally and they're going to make a decision with North Korea's possession of nuclear capacity, China's capacity, they're going to go nuclear and they're not going to put their faith and in the United States anymore. And if Korea does it, Japan, so just close your eyes. Pakistan, India, China, North Korea, South Korea and Japan, all in that region will be nuclear. What could go wrong? It's insane. I want to go double back on something I skipped and I want to say something about the tariffs. You'd ask if I could. Governor, we're treating textiles, toys, technology is equal. And I don't the idea that we're going to see technology or semiconductors, and I'm not saying they're more but they are slightly more valuable than a T shirt from our economic capacity and strength. So if you're going to have a policy on making sure that America's own economy is secure and slightly more self sufficient than where it was. You don't treat toys manufactured in China, textiles manufactured in Southeast Asia and technology like semiconductors as if they're equal economic capacity. And lastly, what's also lost in the space, almost 45% of all imports into the United States are things that go into our own manufacturing base.

Gavin Newsom (29:47)

Yeah.

Ryan (29:48)

So we're going to affect manufacturing but not the way that Donald Trump set it will have an impact on manufacturing. It will actually lead to unemployment in the manufacturing. I don't know if you know this and I'm sure you do because you have your own industrial base in California. There's 500,000 manufacturing jobs today with a help wanted sign around it.

Gavin Newsom (30:11)

Yep.

Ryan (30:12)

We're short workers. You know this and I know this is going around. I used to have CEOs come through here. I talked to them in this today. You do, too. Biggest item besides this regulation or that tax. Biggest item, a workforce that they can't find.

Gavin Newsom (30:30)

That's right.

Ryan (30:31)

So if we started at home, we would be. Actually, there's 500,000 manufacturing jobs today. We could have done something about with that before we hit the tariff chaos.

Gavin Newsom (30:39)

Look, I appreciate it. Also, speaking of kids, I've got four kids and they still love toys. I think 80% of the toys under the Christmas tree come from China. They've doubled the cost of that. Obviously, if you're, you've got your 401k as you said earlier. And I think the focus on 401k more than the markets, I think even Carville brought that up in a recent op ed I thought was very wise and connects with people in a much more personal way. But I want to highlight what you just said. California is the biggest manufacturing state in America. People forget that California is number one in two way trade, number one in direct foreign investment and number one manufacturing state in America. 40% of the goods movements in this country come through two ports of entry in California, about 50% of that from China itself. No state has more to lose, more to gain as it relates to ag, as it relates to all of these industries and tech, as you noted, AI et cetera. So that's, by the way, why we just filed a lawsuit against the Trump administration. And we did it on, I think, very sound grounds. And it's, it's, it's an interesting lawsuit for many different reasons. But we've got to push back much more aggressively on the consequences of this.

Ryan (31:47)

Let me say this without trying to go into a witness protection plan, which.

Gavin Newsom (31:52)

By the way, is hyperbole, but not necessarily in this day and age. So I appreciate the caveat. Yeah.

Ryan (31:59)

Do you know a lawyer before?

Gavin Newsom (32:00)

I say, by the way, none, none at Scott and Arbs, none of Paul Weiss, none of all these firms that have capitulated you, you brought that up at the top.

Ryan (32:09)

Here's the thing is the analysis that we have a problem where America did not invest in America or Americans and it led to our economic independence being adversely not only affected, but it also affected our civic life because people lost confidence in America by Americans. That is not a wrong analysis going about that tariffs are the most beautiful word in the English language and hitting everything, ally and adversary, the same. Not thinking through strategically, not understanding the difference between toys and technology from a economic standpoint is actually the cure is worse than the illness. And it's going to be affect people's family budgets and affect their employment. It's going to affect a whole host of things and their economic security, their retirement security, their education for their children. And so to me, your first question kind of was, I get the analysis of what ails America or one of the things that ails America. It's not wrong. But like all things Trump, he makes the problem much more severe than address it. There you go.

Gavin Newsom (33:32)

Yep.

Ryan (33:34)

In every aspect. Take the academic institutions. Were there things that they had done over the years that got them off kilter? 100%. But using anti Semitism to execute a political strategy to silence universities and academics?

Gavin Newsom (33:51)

No, that's exactly right. But, and so I know, I'm with you and what you're saying is you're not an anti tariff absolutist, you believe in targeted terrorists and along the lines.

Ryan (34:01)

No, I didn't say that. Actually, I, I, no, I want to be, I want to speak.

Gavin Newsom (34:05)

But are you, but you've been, but you've been, you haven't been opposed to tariffs in the past. I mean you've, you know, the Biden administration, a triple demo on, on Chinese steel and aluminum.

Ryan (34:14)

Here's my thing is if we got a problem, what does it take to address and build an industry? Now look, my analysis going back then as ambassador, China is the one that came up with self sufficiency as a, as an economic model. That's why there's exporting their mercantilism and crushing all these countries around the world. They've decided how to isolate themselves from the world rather than interact with the world. And it's only on China's term. If you want to apply a tariff, my view is, okay, what are the things that we are going to do that tariff give us a window of time? What are our investments, what's our training? What are we going to do from a research standpoint in semiconductors, in steel, or pick your industry. I'm not for tariffs. They are a tool in a toolbox. But tell me what we're doing with all the tools in the toolbox so you have an integrated, cohesive, comprehensive strategy. If we don't train the workers for the 500,000 jobs, I don't care what tariffs you do.

Gavin Newsom (35:15)

Yeah, okay.

Ryan (35:16)

And if you're not going to fund some Research, that's Take a look. You know, I'll just say this fracking as a technology came out of our universities. Look, we're now we went from a 400 billion dollar import to a $45 billion export. That's a big swing. Tell me what we're going to now people are thinking of using that hydraulic technology to do geothermal. Tell me what we're doing. What the worst end line and what are all the pieces that fit into that. We're just going by gut instincts of one guy who failed seven businesses.

Gavin Newsom (35:49)

So what you're saying, I mean to be more clear than the basis of that reaction, targeted tariffs with an industrial policy, with a policy to back it up, with a rationale to use it as a tool for strategic national security issues or for legitimate questions around imbalance of trade or unfair practices.

Ryan (36:11)

People like the Secretary of Commerce and the President who believe tariffs are the economic toolbox.

Gavin Newsom (36:16)

Yeah.

Ryan (36:17)

They're not. They are a tool in the toolbox. But you tell me each sector, what is the strategy? What are we going to do for training? What are we going to do for infrastructure? What are we doing for research and development? How are we going to take certain US companies and build them up or invite foreign investors to build those up? And I'll give you an example. Take the shipbuilding industry, Japan and Korea, unbelievably capable of coming in and investing and helping build that domestic industry in the United States. Are they banned? Are they part of that? Are they allies that we're going to invite in to help us jumpstart something that we've lost our muscle memory on? That's a strategy I want I just what it is we're going to do. What's the roadmap here? So everybody knows how to contribute and knows what the goal line is or what the end point is.

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Cindy Crawford (38:07)

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Amica Insurance Representative (38:09)

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Ryan (38:09)

Your bill, ladies.

Amica Insurance Representative (38:10)

I got it. No, I got it. Seriously, I insist. I insisted first.

NYX Representative (38:16)

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Ryan (38:17)

You know, you silly people with the.

Wells Fargo Representative (38:19)

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Amica Insurance Representative (38:25)

Okay. Rock, paper, scissors for it. Rock, paper, scissors.

Ryan (38:28)

Shoot. No.

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Gavin Newsom (40:40)

This is an opportunity to pivot a little bit, but pivot with a little bit of self reflection. And one of the things I've really appreciated.

Ryan (40:47)

Oh, that's gonna be hard for an Emmanuel.

Gavin Newsom (40:49)

That's why. I don't know, you've been pretty. I was about to compliment you as an Emmanuel.

Ryan (40:54)

Doing self reflection on the podcast too.

Gavin Newsom (40:56)

Yeah. No, I mean, well, you know, we could, we could get in a deeper conversation. Yeah. All two of your two other brothers. Yeah. We could talk about mom as well. You already think you brought up the family in the context of. What was the word you used? Wasn't mishigash.

Ryan (41:11)

What was it? Shonda. It's a sin. It's a, it's an embarrassment. It's a shonda.

Gavin Newsom (41:15)

I like it. I'm gonna steal that.

Ryan (41:17)

It's Yiddish. It's half sin, half embarrassment.

Gavin Newsom (41:19)

It's good. It fits the moment below. You talk about a different moment. I mean, you and you were part of. And frankly, I think all of us were. A lot of us were parroting it to be Canada, you know, as a sort of a Clinton Democrat back in the day. Nafta, the wto. You know, people talk a lot about the wto sort of as a point of emphasis that sort of led to this point. Not just an op ed in 1980s or ad by Trump as it relates to his positions on trade. You know, what do you make of the Democratic Party and our culpability for this moment and the hollowing out of our industrial base and the need to jump start. I mean, what. Just take their arguments, the Bannon arguments. Take the arguments of Trump and the acolytes around him that it's time to re. Industrialize. It's time to, to bring those supply chains home. It's time to, to really start focusing. Yes. Dare I say it, On America first.

Ryan (42:11)

Rob. Look, I don't. So I agree with that on both America and Americans first as a person who. First city to ever create free community college and make sure high school isn't the end point of a public commitment to education. And so, Governor, here's what I would say and I'll talk to both, both NAFTA and wto and WTO meaning China, into wto and they're slightly different, but of single spirit. The mistake. It's a mistake and we owe an apology. American people is we allowed. La Crosse, Wisconsin, Peoria, Illinois, Youngstown, Ohio SAGINAW Michigan or Battle Creek, Michigan or Terre Haute, Indiana, to navigate the world market on their own against China and much bigger forces. We didn't. We didn't. If you go back to nafta, President Clinton had proposed a billions of, billions of dollars of investment that was turned down by Congress, ended up with like a job training program, like a voucher, and basically said, here you're on your own. And the truth is, you and I and our kids, we're going to get the rewards of the system that we built. But that's not true for everybody. The American dream has been unaffordable and inaccessible every year after every year. And it's down now to about 10% of the children of American families have access. All American people want is a simple thing, a shot at the American dream. And they got the shaft. And we left communities unprotected against China. Peoria is not set up. And the people who live in Peoria to fight China on their own. And that's just an observation, that's just a fact. And while trade had benefits, the benefits were not equally shared and the risk was not equally shared. And that's a fact. And for too long it was ignored as a scream in a yell. And you can explain something of Donald Trump in that now on wto, same analysis, except for, I would say one caveat. When China was brought in, it was part of. In the same way that Russia was brought into NATO and Russia was brought into the G7. There was a theory of the case and it's a kind of a 6040 issue. It's better to have them in the tent piston out than outside the tent piston. And to use an LBJ term, not. Not. It's not, you know, you know, this is Governor. I know as a mayor, as chief of staff, nothing's 100 to zero. That's what you have AI for. These are judgment calls. It was better to think that you can make China and invested in the system we have.

Gavin Newsom (44:51)

Yeah.

Ryan (44:51)

By 2012, when Xi becomes president of China, it's very clear they go from strategic competitor to strategic adversaries. Much different. It was actually also very clear. And I say this Congressman represented many companies as chief of staff dealing with CEOs. China, intellectual property theft and economic espionage is core to the business model in a way that patents and rule of law are core to ours. And in 2012, we held on strategic competitor, ignoring things that we knew were happening. And they went to strategic adversary and core to their idea. You have Google based in California. Only one country was Stealing AI secrets from them. And it's called China. They do it all over our universities, they do it all over our companies. It's core to them. And we ignored it. Now in 2012, we should have blown the whistle, called the game and said this is a different game. And the only thing I would say is that we woke up on Wolf Warrior, the economic cores and 10 years earlier than trying to expect us and we started making use of that kind. So was it a mistake in 1999? I, I gotta be honest. It was a 60, 40, 65, 35 call. Do you let them stay out or you bring them in? And when they started changing and not playing by the rules they agreed to, they should have gotten called out earlier and not just called out. The whistle should have been blown and they should have been forfeited the game and being dealt with different. They're not a developing economy. They were cheating and stealing their way to economic secrets. And not only cheating and stealing. We permitted American companies to give away research and development to get access to a market. Well, I'm sorry, taxpayers pay for that research and development. We own that as much as any one company owns that R and D when we give you a tax credit. We're an equity investor. We gave away our family jewels because a Bunch of company CEOs, all of us did. Dr. Both sides of Pennsylvania Avenue, governors everywhere, because they wanted access to the market. And the biggest mistake, we commercialized our forms and national security policy. We commercialized it. The business community had way too big a vote. A big mistake. And now we have to make up for that lost time. We were in the process of doing that.

Gavin Newsom (47:14)

Right.

Ryan (47:15)

And I think what we're doing, treating allies as if they're adversaries. Adversaries is that one day they become allies. And it's a total mistake because we don't know friend from foe.

Gavin Newsom (47:24)

Yeah.

Ryan (47:25)

Here.

Gavin Newsom (47:25)

And you say we, we start and this is segue then to the Biden years. And you know, I've been very vocal. I thought it was a master class of policy making. I thought it was extraordinary legislative accomplishments. $369 billion in the IRA. 52, 3 in the Chips and Science Act. 1.2 trillion. I think, I think 550 billion more net new in the infrastructure. I mean the punchline aside of Trump, I mean literally 300 weeks of infrastructure bloviation and the Biden administration delivered seemed to me an industrial policy that was worker centered. To begin to substantively address these trend lines and address these headlines of today. Do you agree with that and I'm not looking you as a, as a former ambassador to the administration. It's difficult to, you know, I don't, I'm not looking to, to get it create any wedges but, but it seemed to me a pretty robust response to the concerns around the working class, to the concerns around what's happening in the heartland. By the way, the heartland includes California, which again the largest manufacturing state that has more hunting jobs, more fishing jobs and more forestry jobs, not just ag jobs than any other state.

Ryan (48:36)

So Governor, I would say to you, look, it started dealing with the fact that both of industrial policy and key sectors of the economy that were going to produce both jobs and economic independence. We started to make investments in America making up for other question which is things that we didn't invest in and we allowed the freedom of the market to take place and it affected both our competitiveness and most importantly the American people and their confidence in America because we lost face with them. I do think there's, you know, it was robust. But what was one of the principal things that undermined the president was inflation. And that was an outgrowth of the robustness of the first act, which is. And how big it was you were.

Gavin Newsom (49:28)

Trying which I neglected to reference. I referenced three of the acts.

Ryan (49:31)

My point is, was the infrastructure not exclusively that.

Gavin Newsom (49:35)

I mean it was partially. I mean to be fair, you had international.

Ryan (49:39)

There's a lot of coming out of.

Gavin Newsom (49:41)

COVID supply chains, the war in Ukraine issues and obviously international inflation that impacted the globe. But yes, partially impacting America more than the Earth bill.

Ryan (49:54)

Everybody was oh, it's big and bold. And look, I can say this. I mean that a lot of it was oh, we were going to show President Obama, you know about the competitiveness. We were going to show President Obama the right way to do this.

Gavin Newsom (50:05)

You said meaning that Obama's bill wasn't big enough. Your bill. And we needed to show we could go bolder and bigger.

Ryan (50:12)

I always. Now you're going to deal with talk about self awareness. Nobody ever offered an amendment to make it bigger. Everybody that's rewriting history, you know, some of us were there nobody for a trillion dollars. It wasn't going to pass. Okay, so nobody offered it. Everybody that's walking around, oh, it was too small, too timid. Okay, where was your amendment calling for a trillion dollars? Okay, nobody did. Number two, it was big, it was bold because we were having a problem. But part of it was all there was a political piece to this and we should just be honest. It was to show that oh we were different than the timidness which I don't think was timid President Obama dealt with on the heels of having just dealt with TARP of what President Bush passed and signed implementing that but also the recovery act that was what the political system could bear. Now the inflation that kicks off under President Biden is one of the pieces not the only but is a result that big and bold came with a price not just economic. It came with a political price because inflation kicked off and it was known at the time it was warrant but there was something considerations done where politics was to be honest more valuable.

Gavin Newsom (51:27)

Yeah.

Ryan (51:28)

And I think sometimes also if I could in the rewrite less is more it became a giant appropriation bill rather than a strategically thought through and you can that criticism also applies to certain things we did under President Obama's first bill also the recovery bill which became too big of a funding bill rather than a strategic approach to either the recession and or post Covid President Biden's.

Gavin Newsom (51:58)

So Rahm is your point then that it then clouded over some of the accomplishments on those other bills that sort of that three legged stool that I was arguing were not insignificant the Chips and science act and the infrastructure bill in making those investments intentionally in the Iraq that have benefited disproportionately rural and red parts of this country.

Ryan (52:18)

There's no look it look. You got three or four. There's a. In my view there's telling people that the economy is great when they're feeling stressed as if you're like tone deaf. That's one. Yeah.

Gavin Newsom (52:35)

That's on the politics. Okay. Yep, yep.

Ryan (52:37)

Second people ready Breaking news. People like order versus disorder. You're talking to the guy in Clinton White House who put together Operation Gatekeeper on San Diego and the border looks totally out of control. I think American people are actually more receptive on immigration but they don't like the law being broken and being so flagging disregarded. And we allowed it to happen.

Gavin Newsom (52:57)

That's right.

Ryan (52:58)

And then third our party and I've spoken about this got into a cultural cul de sac. You know, look, we weren't good on the kitchen table issues. We weren't really good on the family room. The only room we really did well in the house was a bathroom. And I don't know if you know this governor, but the bathroom is the smallest room in the house and that's the only place we were good. Okay. And my view is we not only look like we were on the cultural periphery, we look like that's what was front and center for us?

Gavin Newsom (53:27)

Yeah.

Ryan (53:27)

And I'm, I'm sorry, I've written about this, I've talked about it. Stop. The bathroom, the locker room. It's not more important than the classroom and the kitchen table. A lot of things get discussed at that kitchen table. Like what's going on in the neighborhood, who are the kids hanging with? How does technology affect our children's isolation? They're in the basement. I can't get them off the, off the telephone. There's a whole host of issues that happen. They happen at your kitchen table. They happen at my kitchen table. And they go from the kitchen table to the family room to at night when you have five minutes to talk to your loved one and your partner about what we're going to do. So we actually got totally sidetracked into a discussion. Now as a party, we're an accepting party, but we started becoming advocates and I'm sorry. When 2/3 of our kids can't read at grade level, the worst in 30 years. Two thirds of our kids can't do math at the worst level in 30 years. That's the priority. You make it for your own children. And we didn't make it for the American children. Children. And I, I. This really like. Yes, I was in Japan. I couldn't have been happier. But I was like, I was watching America. I said when you guys, have we lost our mind? This is a. Our. The Democratic Party is about the American dream. Owning a home, saving for your retirement, saving for your kids education and making sure that grandma wasn't one littlest away from the chapter 11 and moving into the house. You wanted her blocks away. Okay. And the American dream is not accessible. It's not affordable. That's the pro. That is what should motivate us as Democrats to speak to now. The opportunity for us. If I can go on a tirade.

Gavin Newsom (55:09)

Here, by the way, you sound very much like I have lately, so. Keep going, Ron. Keep going.

Ryan (55:16)

Well, the Democratic Party. Look, between now and 2026, there's gonna be a referendum on Donald Trump and there's gonna be a lot of energy. It's not gonna be about us. It's gonna be about him.

Gavin Newsom (55:30)

But you're not arguing for that. You're arguing for something bolder and bigger, beyond.

Ryan (55:33)

But here's what I'm arguing. Because with the day 2026 is over.

Gavin Newsom (55:37)

Yeah. Gotta turn that page. But.

Ryan (55:39)

And if you want the American people to give you the keys to the car, you got to know how to drive.

Gavin Newsom (55:44)

Yep.

Ryan (55:44)

You got to know that you have more. You have a Google map to the American dream, that you know how to steer that car, not get it off onto the shoulder of the road and you know how to take it so not just the Newsome children and the Emanuel children can one day own a home. You have kids graduating college with $35,000 in debt and they're living in the basement till they're 35. This is not how you and I grew up. Then you got grandma living upstairs in the where the kids used to live because she can't afford to live on Social Security and Medicare. And she's skipping medication and you're skipping doctor visits. This is insane. And if we're going to get the keys to the car between 2026 and 2028, we got to tell people you're not going to get the shaft anymore. And I may not solve this problem and I may have my tongue hanging out of my mouth at the end like a dog racing, but I am going to work every day to make sure that more and more American children and more American families have access to that dream. And it has be. And the reason our politics are where they are and the reason we have Donald Trump is that trust between the American people, the American dream, and those of us who are stewards of it has been broken and we need to repair it. And that's our number one goal.

Gavin Newsom (57:01)

Well, I appreciate everything you said and I also appreciated your courage of saying which I was right there with you calling our party brand, which was not very well received, at least with my inbox, when I called our party brand toxic. I mean, when you're 27%, you know, we were high water mark at 29% on a CNN poll, only to see 27% a few days later, an NBC poll, where people don't trust us. They don't think we have their backs on issues that are core to them, which are these kitchen table issues.

Ryan (57:30)

It is both the kitchen table issue and the family issues.

Gavin Newsom (57:33)

And you mean family broadly defined in what context?

Ryan (57:38)

Let me say a couple things. Now. I'm a product of my experiences. President Clinton is infamous in the 92 election for the economy. Stupid. But there were a set of issues coming on the heels of both Jimmy Carter, Walter Mondale and then Dukakis where he talked about ending welfare as we know it. A shorthand in your state coming out of the Rodney King sister soldier moment that he was centered on a set of values that all of us collectively had a consensus around. So that the economic message about the middle class first could be heard through. And for President Obama, it became dealing with Father Wright, his pastor, who's made some very ugly comments. For President Kennedy, it was going to Texas to give a speech and say, I'll be a president who's Catholic, but not a Catholic president. There were threshold issues that were important on the cultural front.

Gavin Newsom (58:37)

Yeah.

Ryan (58:38)

That allowed the rest of what we had to say, a permission slip, to get heard. Now that's a political analysis. And I would say to you, the kitchen table and the family room are of one piece. And we got stuck as a party in the bathroom, which I say jokingly, but it's serious. It is the smallest room in the house and we're not going to be heard on a set of issues. And you say 27%. I'm sometimes we earned that 27% the old fashioned way. We turned our back on the American people and they had. They had hope in us. They put their confidence in us and we walked away from that contract with them.

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Cindy Crawford (60:18)

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Amica Insurance Representative (60:20)

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Ryan (60:20)

Your bill, ladies.

Amica Insurance Representative (60:21)

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Ryan (60:27)

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Amica Insurance Representative (60:28)

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Amica Insurance Representative (60:36)

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Ryan (60:40)

No.

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Gavin Newsom (62:04)

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Gavin Newsom (62:51)

Ron what you just said I think is, is really powerful and important and because in order for people to hear the other message, they, they, they had to hear that that what you, I mean they had to hear that we were connected on some of those other issues. Meaning it's not just an economic message. I mean that was I think Biden's frustration. He was talking about build back better. He was talking about an economic message, he was talking about his worker centered industrial policy. But it wasn't necessarily breaking through because we couldn out as you point of the bathroom debates, the pronoun debates and all these other debates.

Ryan (63:26)

I've said this before so I'll say it here. In his last state of the Union. If my theory of the case is right, in the last State of the Union, when he was not reading off script, he said. When he went off script, he said illegal immigrants.

Gavin Newsom (63:43)

People didn't like the word illegal.

Ryan (63:45)

All of Washington's immigration groups start yelling at the White House, remember? And they went to undocumented. Now, to me, that was the slowest pitch over the center plate.

Gavin Newsom (63:54)

He should have said, look, no one's illegal. I remember it. I remember it well. Rob. Yeah.

Ryan (63:59)

And he switched to the voices on K Street of Washington. And to me, that was the easiest way of showing, as I showed Kennedy, Clinton and Obama had different footprints on this area of what I call a cultural landscape where he could have said, look, I said what I said. I'm sticking by what I said. If you don't like it, you can use whatever term you want. And this is, I find ironic from a bunch of people yelling at you when you say, don't say defund the police. You say, it doesn't mean what it says. Well, don't use the English language then. Okay, if it doesn't mean I use the English language, convey what I mean, not what I don't mean. So to me, we put ourselves in a position where we're not seen or heard by the American people because we disappointed them.

Gavin Newsom (64:47)

So you're. And I. Look, I appreciate the specific example as it relates the. To Biden in that particular moment as relates to illegal immigration versus undocumented. But broadly, how do you sort of reflect there's a lot of dialectic within the party or not within the party, within punditry. More broadly, that it's the weaponization of grievance. The other side so much more effective at making crt, dei, esg, irs, you know, doj, anything with three letters, the issue of the day, and that they're able to surround sound. Sinclair Media. Not just Fox Newsmax, not just one American news, not just the bogus fear and the manosphere, but their ability to shape shift. And constantly. We're on the defensive in that respect, and they color things in. And even if we're trying to run away from those issues, we don't even want to indulge in those issues. We have an almost impossible time in that media landscape of breaking out and getting back on our message. How. How do you reflect on that? Is that a component part or is it still. We're not victims and we need to take more accountability.

Ryan (65:49)

Look, they do have a very powerful ecosystem, but, you know, even with the ecosystem, they lost Wisconsin, they lost they lost over every special election. So, I mean, one of the things that you and I both know this don't over. Don't over inflate your opponent's power and don't underestimate it either. So does it have a powerful ecosystem? Yes. Do we? Sometimes. Are we our worst marketers? Latinx. A hundred thousand, you know, defund the police. I can give you chapter and verse of terminology. We, you know, I'm not. I actually appreciate the spirit. Okay, so don't get me. I appreciate the spirit of those that are going around on protest calling oligarchs. You're all over California. How many people in your. You've been to Lieutenant Governor. Governor. How many times does somebody come up to you said oligarch rather than rich or big, Big, big fat special interests. Okay, why don't we use terms that.

Gavin Newsom (66:51)

People at the diner understand?

Ryan (66:52)

Okay, well, I, I didn't know we were applying for our tenure position. Okay? Give me a break. So are we our worst. Are we our worst victims? Yes. Yes. Do they have a more sophisticated ecosystem? Yes. Do people like his tariffs? No. Did we win in Wisconsin? Yes. Did they lose? Escambia county, where Pensacola is, and it's 14% veterans, double the national average. First time since five decades a Democrat won that in a national election. Trump won it by 19, we won it by three. Yeah. So I don't overestimate the power of it. I think I'd like to have that ecosystem and I'd like to be more strategic and more sophisticated about how we talk about what's core to us. I wouldn't want to be a better talker about the locker room and the bathroom. I'd rather be a better talker and have a good ecosystem about. This is what we're going to do to improve reading scores. Here's how we're going to make sure that kids can do math at math level. Here's how we're going to deal with a chronic absenteeism rate. So I'd like to have that ecosystem. If I was focused on the right things, if I was saying, you know, and there's not to tout it, but, you know, we created universal Pre K in Chicago. Never had it. Universal kindergarten. Never had it. Free community college for B students. Never had it. So I like to have the ecosystem that tells that story and why it's important that two thirds of the 20,000 kids that went to college for community college for free were the first in the family ever went. That passport, that education, that's your visa and your Passport to the future. I think there's other ways to. So I want the ecosystem and I want the way to talk about what we're doing in a strategically focused way. Not that makes me feel better about me, but makes them feel better that I'm actually in their sleeves, rolled up like a beaten dog, working for Rob.

Gavin Newsom (68:45)

Are you in? We'll segue a little bit off that. You. You had deep experience with all things tactical and political, particularly not. And you had remarkable career, so many remarkable roles, working for three presidents, too, in. In sort of more elite and established status. What. But the Congressional Committee, what, You were running that, what, 19. 2006, right? Yeah. And. And I bring up 2006 in this context because after 2004, I remember everybody, we got shellacked. They won the popular vote, the electoral vote. Democratic Party was toast. Everyone was running, saying, we gotta go to Applebee's, read, you know, what's wrong with Kansas. This is before hillbilly elegy, the whole thing. And, you know, we're too elite. We're too out of touch. And then all of a sudden, two years later, you successfully win back the House, overwhelmingly summoned by Nancy Pelosi, speaker of the house. And in 2008, you guys went with the biggest landslide since 1964 with 53% of the vote. And all of a sudden, you're on transition team and chief of staff of some guy named Obama. Is this 2004 all over again if we do it right, or are we in a deeper, darker wilderness at this moment, from your perspective?

Ryan (69:59)

So I'll take one anecdote. So the day after we win'06, you'll appreciate that this. This is the day of President Trump, President Bush, rather, given that press conference, said, we took a thumper.

Gavin Newsom (70:18)

Yep.

Ryan (70:20)

I'm in my Detroit Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee. I love this story. And it's President Bush, and he called to say, I want to congratulate you on a great race, you know, the race you ran, et cetera, et cetera. And I said, I said, Mr. President, I said, I want to thank you. And he goes, what do you mean? I said, you did. We did everything we needed to do, and you did everything we wanted you to do. That was he wouldn't fire Rumshaw. It was also that, you know, he goes, you know what, Rob? You're as big a prick as they say you are. We started laughing our asses off. I said, here to serve, Mr. President. And we were actually. We were very respectful because I, you know, two years later, as you said, I'm chief of staff, etc. I think this gets back to what I said to you between now and 2026, it's all about Trump and it's a referendum, him and the Republicans. But we better do the intellectual work right now on that window of time between 2026 and 2028. It's going to come fast and furious and we're not going to be living off the fumes of Donald Trump. We got to be living. We're not going to just fight Donald Trump. We're going to fight for America. And I'm spending my time intellectually. What is that fight for America?

Gavin Newsom (71:34)

I love it. So, Rob, so just simple questions. The last question. And I don't want any bullshit from politician. I don't like those political answers. Are you or are you not running for president, United States? Rahm, I want to know right now. None of the bs whatever. They made the American people decide. What is the answer?

Ryan (71:52)

Here's, here's the answer. Which is if I think I know the answer to that question, which is the question I said, which is what is the fight for America? And I haven't. I have something to contribute to that I'll throw. I'll deal with that. But if I don't think I have something that. Over yourself, governor, my governor here, or other governors that I think they're doing what I would do and enunciating that because being anti Trump ain't gonna get you squat in 2027. If I have something to say and I've never been shy about saying it and I don't think anybody else is saying it and I've thought through my head how to do it. I'll deal with that. I gotta offer something first that I think the American people need to hear.

Gavin Newsom (72:29)

Well, we heard a lot today and I really appreciate it.

Ryan (72:31)

I like the record of show. Governor, you were the first to swear on this show, not me.

Gavin Newsom (72:35)

I don't bullshit. It's not even a swear word. Jesus. I mean, come on.

Ryan (72:40)

I love you. Talk to you soon.

Gavin Newsom (72:42)

See you, brother.

Ryan (72:43)

Bye. Bye.

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